Bridging Healing and Activism (w/ Noëlle Janka)

Episode Transcript
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Noëlle Janka (00:00):
And she was like, the river is filled drop by drop.
Do not underestimate the powerof doing individual work.

Jeremy Blanchard (00:19):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast.
A show about how we can use thepower of coaching and personal
transformation to help create the world.
We most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchardand today's episode is
with my good friend Noëlle.
Jenka.
She's a politicized careerand healing coach dedicated to
supporting social change leaders.

(00:40):
For the past decade, she has broughttogether her personal experience,
navigating chronic illness withher passion for social justice and
transforming systems of oppression.
And she recently published herbook, Rebel Healing: Transforming
the Systems that Make Us Sick.
I had the privilege to be one of thepeople cheering her on over the last
few years as she wrote this book.

(01:01):
And one of the things I loveabout it is the way that she draws
this connection between systemichealing and personal healing.
In this episode, Noelle talked aboutconcrete ways coaches can support social
change leaders to reconnect with theirbodies, their intuition, and a sense
of interconnectedness with the whole.

(01:22):
And one of my favorite parts was ourconversation about how Noelle embraced
her role as a healer within socialmovements and how she navigates the
tension between focusing on one-on-onework versus large scale transformation.
This was actually the firstconversation I recorded for the
podcast back in November of last year.

(01:42):
I hope that what you get fromthis episode helps you in your
work towards healing and justice.
And if you'd like more resourcesat this intersection of personal
and systemic transformation, youcan head over to widerroots.com
to sign up for the newsletter.
All right.
Let's dive in.

(02:05):
Well.
Hi, Noëlle.
Welcome to the podcast!

Thanks Jeremy.
It's so great to be

glad to
So we've been buds for a long time.
For I think a decade now.
And we've been conspirators onthis intersection of coaching and
social change, social justice work.
And, I wanted to have you on the showbecause you're one of the thought partners
that has been along my side that I'velearned a lot from over this time.

(02:33):
And, yeah, I just love the way that youbring together something that I'm always
striving for in my life, which is thatcompassionate, heart forward way of being
with people in relationship to your work.
And also just this fierce dedication tothere's a world that needs transforming.
Like, there are systems thatare not working for most people.

(02:56):
And, uh, we gotta do something about it.
And I find that those are thepeople I gravitate towards the most,
and part of where our friendshiphas been for a long time, so.
That's why I'm so glad you're here.

Yeah thank you jeremy, I wouldn't be here
without you, so I'm so grateful.
I'm so grateful that you madethis and that we're still here.

Thanks.
So, um, can you introduceyourself just a little bit?

Sure.
so my name is Noelle Janka.
I use she her pronouns.
I, was born in Washington DC um, I nowlive in so called Western Massachusetts
on Pocomtuc land, which is a part ofthe world that I really, really love.
And, I have a background ingrassroots and political organizing.
And, about nine years ago, uh, neededto figure out something different.

(03:45):
And with your help,Jeremy, became a coach.
And so now I call myself apoliticized career and healing
coach for social change makers.
Um, and I recently,became a published author,

Yes, you did.

Releasing my book called Rebel Healing
and the Systems that Make Us Sick.
It came out in September.

Hell yeah.
It's so, um, so excitingto see the book come out.
Knowing how much you put into it forso many years and what a, like, true
labor of love that this has been.
it's like a marker on your journey, um,both as your own healing journey, but
also as a coach and as a healer and assomeone who's supporting changemakers.

(04:30):
So excited to dig into it more.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat inspired you to write this?
How did you know it was timeto write a book about this?

That's a good question.
I felt like I needed to write,like, I just needed to write
my way out of where I was.
And it started by writing, 52 blog poststhat were related to healing and coaching.
And I thought, Oh, I'll just makethose into a book and that'll be easy.
And that'll be fun.
And then I can share thisstuff with the world.

(05:01):
But then I came, became obsessed withthis idea of the root cause and how, as
somebody who had been sick since I was15 and, and going to doctor after doctor
after doctor for a really long time.
Um, I became really frustrated thatthe doctors, never seemed to be
interested in addressing the root cause.

(05:22):
And that just was infuriating.
And I noticed like, growing up in DCand like being interested in politics
and always thinking about like, whatare the policy solutions for the
things that people are struggling within the collective, like, why aren't
those addressing the root cause?
And I was like, there's got to besome connection here between the root
cause issue that I'm experiencingin the medical system or the medical

(05:44):
industrial complex, and, you know, whatwe're experiencing at the policy level.
And so.
I read, like, a massive stack of books andkept writing about it until I wrote my way
into something that turned into the book.

Amazing.

Yeah, and I wanted to actually give a shout out to Susan Rappo's

book, Liberated to the Bone (06:02):
History's Body's Futures, because I don't think,
it came out in February, and I don'tthink it's gotten a lot of play, but she
really looks at, in a deeper way thanI do, and in a more somatic way, how
everything is related to, the originalgenocide of indigenous people and slavery.
We can trace so many of ourchallenges back to that.

(06:26):
And, that's what I was trying toget at a little bit in my book too.
I think it's fun to see that there'slike a lot of us being like, no,
this, like, this is the root,like the root cause is important.
We need to be thinkingabout the root cause.
We need to be healing the root cause.
So it's just refreshing.

Yeah, I know that you have been coaching, changemakers, social
change leaders, organizers, activists.
You've also been coaching folkswith chronic illness, and I know
many of the folks you've coachedare both right, they're changemakers
who have chronic illness.
There's a bunch of quotes that I love fromyour book, but I want to read one of them.
You wrote,
" Prioritizing personal healingsupports the paradigm of

(07:03):
healing centered change making.
Rather than reinforcing the aggressivefight-fight-fight, us-versus-them,
work as hard as you possibly can untilyou can't style of change making.
In this paradigm, sometimes thechange agents begin to resemble
the very people and institutionsthey're fighting against."
And so in that quote, you're doingthis work that I'm super interested

(07:24):
in, in this podcast of like, okay,where are these intersections and
complementary parts where the personaland the systemic start to like meet
each other and influence each other?
And I know both of us seethis all the time, right?
We both know so many organizers whohave chronic illness and/or are burnt
out, which is related, but different.
I'm just curious how doyou think about this?

(07:46):
Like do you see this too, thishigh number of sort of social
change oriented folks who get sick?
And how do you make sense of that?
How do you hold that?

Yeah, I mean, yes, I do see that.
That's a lot of times when peoplecome my way, or people who have been
in, toxic work environments thathave just shredded them to the core.
they're like, how do I even survivein this capitalist economy anymore?
Because I don't want to work, I don'twant to do anything, I don't want to

(08:16):
participate in things that cause harm.
I don't want to be harmed, youknow, so yeah, it's a big thing.
Not just the pace of it and thelike, the way that it doesn't
privilege our nervous systems, right?
Cause it's just like,we got to go, go, go.
And there's not a lot of space,but it's like, um, white supremacy
culture to the max, right?

(08:36):
Like, and, and, but I think a lotof people are also coming from
this place of like, I need to dosomething because of my privilege.
Like I was one of these people, likeI need to use my privilege for good.
And I don't really matter.
And my needs don't really matter becauseI grew up with everything and I just need
to like sacrifice it all For other people,and do think the nervous system thing,

(08:56):
though, is one of the the biggest things.
Like, it's something that's happening nowwith so many people protesting, um, cause
it, as we're having this conversation.
more than 10, 000 peoplehave been killed in Gaza.
There's organizing happening all overthe world, People are going to protest.
So sort of like going backto the original quote, right.
I was saying that people canbegin to mimic the people.

(09:17):
That they're trying to fightagainst or the, the systems
that they're trying to change.
It's really hard to be constantlyprotesting and organizing and not
be dysregulated the entire time.
Right?
And so we're trying to changethese dysregulated systems.
from a state of dysregulation.
And

That's right.

so that's part of why I do what I do, because I
try to give people the skillsto do it from a different place.
To do the work from amore regulated place.

Yeah, that really resonates.
Yeah, can you talk a little bit moreabout what that, uh, different place is?

Yeah.
I mean, I'm not the expert on like how todesign a action that isn't dysregulating.
Um, although in the chronicillness community, I've seen like,
die ins and lie ins, which is aninteresting take on it, right?
Like you're literally in the reclinedposition, just taking up space with your
body, um, which I think is different.
But, Yeah, I think it's,it's not that complicated.

(10:09):
It's like helping folks be able toread their own systems and be able to
notice like, Oh, like I am feeling,you know, these sensations of being
upregulated, or I'm feeling really frozen.
Like when I work with folks, welook at, okay, so like, how do you
read your system and then what,what do you need to shift it?

(10:33):
What might help shift it?
What do you do when you can't shift it?
How do you bring people in?
How do you build a support network?
How do you build a network so that atany given time you can call somebody?
And they can just come hold you orlike, they can give you energy work?
I think part of what I'm trying to doand what you're trying to do and what
other people are trying to do is, isrebuild the web of connection that we've

(10:57):
lost over the last few generations, youknow, like, and, and as social capital
has declined and social media has risen,like, how do we find each other again?
How do we feel each other again?
How do we feel?
The connection with the trees, Ithink that's the most important
thing we can do right now.
especially for middle class white people.
But also, but for everybody, youknow, like how do we, how do we find,

(11:19):
our connections to the earth, to thedivine, to each other, to our bodies.
To our ancestors, like how do we placeourselves in the system, in the web
so that we understand that we're notalone and so that we have people and
beings that we can co regulate with,

And it's choosing to, um, recognize that there's an
interplay between, where you'reresourcing yourself and the work you're
doing for systemic change, right?
that when we opt just for thesystemic, Change side just for
change making just for movementwork just for organizing at our own
expense all day We're gonna lose it.

(11:58):
We're not gonna stay in it.
we're gonna burn out we're notgonna be able to keep contributing

Yeah,

just to riff on something ago, what are the, ways
in protests that we can design tohave regulated nervous systems.
And I'm remembering back to one ofmy very first direct actions as a
young climate activist in, in college.
It was at PowerShift 2013, I think,and I got invited to, uh, Quaker direct

(12:26):
action from Earth Quaker Action Team.
And, was not at all familiar withthe Quaker tradition, but they
were doing a sit in at a bank thatwas funding mountaintop removal.
And it was my first experience of, like,a spiritually grounded activist anything.
Everything up until then had justbeen like, just, you know, the
sort of fire hose intensity energy.

(12:48):
And in the Quaker tradition as my firstencounter with it, but we sat in silence.
for ten minutes.
there was, you know, there were somewords spoken, but it was this very,
like, we were like, ground, ground,ground, ground, before going out.
And I could feel it as we were walkingout, I was like, oh, we are like, really
together, but we're not together outof this activated, you know, there

(13:11):
was a fire there, but it was a reallyrooted fire, instead of it just sort of
chaos energy that propels you forward.

Yeah.
That's really beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that story.
And I think, I mean there's
even small tweaks like, instead of yellingsomething, if people are singing it

yeah,

That could change it.
You know, like, it, doesn'tmaybe necessarily have to like
all be like this big thing.
And I hope that nobody thinks I'mshitting on protests because that's
not my, that's not my intention.
I just think there's ways that wecan do it a little bit differently.

I'm curious, you know, thinking of the ways in
which social change and chronicillness can go together, right?
There's this theme of burnout, there'sthis theme of, overextending ourselves.
To add the coaching element into this.
I'm curious if you haveany thoughts on like.
How you've seen coaching with your clientsmaybe like prevent some of that or keep

(14:10):
away from some of the worst impactsthat could have led to worse illness.
I think that's both of our visionsis that we, we don't have to have as
many sick, burnt out changemakers.

Yeah, I mean, that's why I hired you as a coach so many years ago.
So I was like, I can't keep burning out.
Like, this isn't cool.
There's got to be another way.
And it turns out there is, which is great.
I think a lot of times when we talkabout coaching generally, like in the
coaching industry, it's about supportingpeople to do things that they want to

(14:41):
do or to do the things that they're notdoing to get out of their own way so
they could do the things they want to do.
And I think a lot of times whenI'm working with folks with health
challenges, It's actually aboutlike, what do you need to stop doing?
Right?
You need to stop pushing.
You need to stop collapsing.
And like, not that I would ever saythose things to people, but those

(15:03):
are some of the patterns that show up.
Or like, you need to stop tryingto do seven million things at
once, and like see that like.
Life will go on if you do half asmuch, you know, um, and Part of that
is unlearning whatever conditioningor stories are causing that.

(15:26):
Sometimes that's addressing trauma, whichI'm not a trauma therapist, so sometimes
I have to send people somewhere else,but sometimes it's also just making space
for folks to notice the impact of some ofthe ways that they've been being, right.
So there's a lot of crying.

Yeah.
Can you give an exampleof that last piece there?
Like that way of being, or thatway of doing that's something
they haven't experienced?

It could look like pulling somebody in to do a task with
them and getting that person to helpthem just like do the thing and not
worry about the quality of it andjust be done with it as a way to keep
the perfectionism monsters away.

Yeah, I mean definitely one of these intersections between this
like personal and systemic that I see isthe way our individualist culture wants
us to do everything on our own, right?
How am I overworking, overextendingleading towards burnout?
How do I learn to not pretend that Iam this isolated thing and play into

(16:33):
the capitalist myth of separation andindividual success and productivity?

Yeah, and I mean, I see it even with folks who aren't sick, like
there's so much magic and just goingsomewhere and doing things with people.
I can't tell you how many times Iwork with my clients and I'm just
like, okay, what would like yousay, you want to do this thing?
What would make that sweeter or morefun or make you more likely to do it
and nine times out of 10, it's to dowith other people, even if that means

(17:01):
just going to the library to do it.
And I think that's because we're socialbeings and even in the basics of polyvagal
theory, right, one of the physiologicalstates is called social engagement.
We need social engagement to be regulatedAnd like, it's so easy to forget that.
because they don't teach us thatin kindergarten, you know, maybe
they do now, but they certainlydidn't when I was in kindergarten.

(17:23):
I just think that's so,it's just so important.
And it sounds simple but it's so powerful.

Yeah.
I want to read another quote from you.
It's one of my favorite quotes fromthe book, that impacted me a lot.
You wrote, "Healing doesn'tlook like getting back to the
way things were before, the waythings were before made you sick.
Healing is seeing clearly what does notserve you, and being willing to switch
up anything that is in your control."

(17:51):
And that just resonates a lot withme, looking at my own, um, healing,
mental health difficulties have come up.
And, um, I've definitely bought into thisview of healing of like, I felt better
before I want to get back to before.
And this idea, this forwardlooking interpretation of
healing really strikes me.

(18:11):
And it feels like a very coachy way of holding healing.
It's like, you're have a,possibility orientation, like
a almost a transformationalview on what healing can be.
So curious if there's anythingmore you want to say about that.

Yeah, well something, this definition of healing I've been
working with actually since puttingout the book is that healing is
really like, 30% percent repair andlike 70% percent transformation.
And I think that really worksfor every definition of healing.
Whether like, on the personallevel, physical healing, spiritual

(18:44):
healing, emotional healing, andthen on the collective level too.
And yeah, I just, I hear it so much,people being like I just want to feel
better again, I just want to feelthe way that I did and that might be
possible, you know, but like, it's,it's also just important to recognize
that where we came from, like thoseare the conditions that created the

(19:09):
challenges that we're facing, both onthe personal and the, collective level.
You know, another thing I talk abouta lot in the book is visioning.
And I think that's where visioning can bereally useful because it's really easy to
be like, well, if I can't go back to whereI was then where the hell am I going?
And that's really scary.

(19:29):
And, Um, I think that's somethingthat, that helps us personally and
collectively, like dreaming together.
Okay.
So if the medical industrial complexis killing people and keeping us sick
and just like not that helpful for mostthings, then what do we want instead?
Like what does that look like?
Hopefully this is changing, but likewhen I was a young organizer, we

(19:54):
didn't do a lot of collective dreaming.
You know, it was just like, we need tochange this policy right now, or like,
we need to stop climate crisis right now.
And it's like, okay, great,but what are we moving towards?
So how do we personally and collectivelydream outside of that is I think,
an important thing to be looking at.
And, even if it's at the personallevel, like again, a really great

(20:17):
place to pull other people in.
Like, Hey buddies, like, this is whatI think I want my life to look like.
What do you think?
You know?
And then when a bunch of peopleare like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
it makes it more possible.

This weekend I was at, uh, a four day somatics course
with Strozzi Institute and, washaving a conversation about how do
we bring others in to determining ourrole within the collective change?

Mmm.

Right?
Like, if I see that there's somethingI want to learn about creating a
multiracial democracy, how can I goto the people who are much further
ahead of me on that change path andsay, hi, I'm interested in being here.
I'm interested in showingup, here's the skills I have.
Instead of me solely deciding like,well, I think I can fit in here.
It's like, these peopleactually know the terrain more.

(21:12):
It's like a strategy conversation.
Like what would be strategic for me?
Where can I be placed?
you know, where, how would you, uh, adviseme to place myself within this work?
And there's something so likerich there that's, it's like a,
It's again, it's like removingthe individualist tendencies.
You know, you and I have both done lots ofvisioning activities and like, I'm gonna
go sit down with me and my journal andI'm gonna write out my vision for my life.

(21:36):
Right?
And instead exactly what you're talkingabout, how can we vision, but with
others, even if it's about our, our role,but we're doing it immediately held in
a collective and systemic container.

Yeah, 100%.
I think it's

Yeah.

good strategy.

Cool.
I'm Curious to talk about, sowe're both coaches among many
other roles that we both hold.
You and I both work on a one on one, or ona small group or training workshop level.
I'm curious, there's like thiscontradiction here, this tension that
exists that I see between the individuallevel , where we're really getting

(22:14):
to be with one person and the exactsupport they need to go through their
next level of growth to show up fortheir life and their change making work.
And then this desire for systemicchange, like you and I are both
holding a systemic view of things.
And so I'm curious like, howdo you hold both of these?
How do you think about these?

Yeah.
Well, I think I want to shoutout a couple resources first,
and then I can share my story.
So Deepa Iyer's Social ChangeMap is really, really cool.
I use it with clients and friends alot and it shows like all the different
roles that are necessary in a movementfor social change to be successful.

(22:58):
And one of them is healer, And Ithink that's where I've landed.
But there's also weavers and storytellers.
I mean, there's a bunchof different roles.
And then this book actually just cameout by Omkari Williams, Microactivism,
How you can make a Differencein the World Without a Bullhorn.

(23:18):
And she has something similar.
She has like different archetypes tohelp you figure out like, how is the
way that I am going to make change?
And I think that both Deepa Iyer'ssocial change map and this book are
really important right now as peopleare figuring out, okay, like, what
am I going to do about Palestine?
Like I want to do something andI don't, so I just wanted to

Yeah And we'll put the links in the show notes.

Yeah.
But it is something that I struggle with.
I got into student student organizing incollege, both political organizing and,
uh, worked on a living wage campaign.
I do really appreciate thatstyle and that approach to
making change, it's so powerful.
It's such a great thingto do in community.
It can be so effective.
It can be so strategic.
Like campaigns are such a rush.

(24:02):
You know, like I worked on the firstObama campaign and it was like one
of the coolest things I've ever done.
It was super amazing.
Um, and afterwards I was in, I was sickin bed for four days and it was like
some of the sickest I've ever been.
So like at a certain point Ihad to recognize that like,
that wasn't working for me.
And you know, you and I had theprivilege of being in the emergent

(24:23):
strategy ideation institute withadrienne maree brown in Detroit.
And I sort of went into that event beinglike, I'm gonna let this event help me
see where my place in the movement is.
And, uh, we ended up breaking into groups.
My group ended up beinglike 50% percent healers.
And I left that event in that experiencebeing like, okay, like my role in

(24:48):
the movement is as a healer, likewhether I want to accept that or not.
Still a few years later I applied tograduate school to get a master's in
public administration because I waslike, I got to do the policy work.
I have to work at the collective level.
And then I got accepted into graduateschool and I had this crisis because
the only way I was going to beable to do it would have required

(25:10):
me to quit coaching for two years.
And I realized that like, Ididn't know if I could do that.
Like, it just felt so important to me tobe able to work with people one-on-one.
And I had this incredibly powerfulconversation with LaTosha Brown who, co
founded the Black Voters Matter project.
And I was like, Latasha I can'tdecide whether I need to work at the

(25:32):
individual level or the collective level.
And I thought that she was goingto talk me into doing collective
work because of what she does.
And she was like the riveris filled, drop by drop.
Do not underestimate the powerof doing individual work.
She was like, we need both.
And she's like, if this is yourspot, then this is your spot.
And you need to know that it's justas powerful as if you were leading

(25:54):
like hundreds of thousands of people.
And that really did it for me.
I was like, okay, if LaTosha Brownis telling me that I can lean
into doing individual work, then,then that's what I'm going to do.
And I really do think everybody has acalling and a role and like a place where
their individual skills and experienceare most useful and it's only by saying
yes to our gifts and what we're beingcalled to do, that we're really going

(26:18):
to make the change that we want to make.
So I think people forcing themselvesinto one box or another, us
included is not being of service.
And saying yes to the thingthat we're being called to
do, even when it feels hard.
you know.
I, I hope it doesn't take everybody 20years to figure it out like it did for me.
But if it takes that or more like, Godbless you, keep going, figure it out

(26:52):
. Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah.
that resonates a lot.
You know, I know it's something I'vestruggled with a lot and I imagine
anyone who's considering any kind ofone on one or small group, smaller scale
as their primary mode in how they'reserving, struggles with this too.
Especially having the background incommunity organizing that we do where,
we're rooted in this mindset of like,we know that change needs to happen

(27:12):
through social movements and socialmovements changing policies and norms.
That's the scale of change we need toaddress the problems that we're in.
And so I think we share this, andI think so many people listening
probably encounter this too.
There's this question of like,you know, where are we going?
Is it working right?
It brings up these bigger, almostexistential questions of like
Ultimately being very small, right?

(27:33):
This kind of contradiction of liketrying to make a meaningful, sizable
impact and also recognizing our likerelative insignificance as any single
individual within a larger whole.
So yeah, I hear you.
Yeah, and I mean, I think the way I like to think
about it is going back to thecollective nervous system piece.
Like the more people, the more individualnervous systems inside of our collective

(27:59):
nervous systems that feel resourced, thatare more resilient, that can experience a
trauma and come back from it more quickly,then that resources the collective.
I've, I've seen it within organizations,you know, like one person on a team
can change and then everybody'slike, Ooh, tell me about that.
What's happening there?

(28:19):
And it's like they don't necessarilyall need to get coached or all need
to do years of deep internal workfor that to have a really big impact.

Yeah.
One of the things I'm curiousabout is what are some ways that
you bring this systemic changeorientation into your coaching?
You know, you and I were bothtrained in a coaching model
and most coaches are trained incoaching models that have little to
no awareness of systemic factors.

(28:48):
I'm sure there's lots of ways thatyou do this, but curious to hear one
or two that you might want to share.

Yeah, so with every client, we have a whole session dedicated to
just screaming "smash the patriarchy!"
and just like

Yeah, That's good.
Can you put a demo video online?
Get a sample client.
I'm down I'll be your demo client.

Okay, That'll be my next reel Instagram.
Yeah, it's a lot of things.
I think it's a two pronged approach,which builds off of the coaching
model we were trained in, but justkind of, tweaks it a little bit.
So one of the things, you know, wedo as coaches is we help people see
what are the internal conversationsthat are getting in the way.

(29:34):
You know, sometimes they're called selflimiting conversations, or monkey mind.
I think it can, in some cases, beuseful when those conversations to come
up to be able to label them together.
Like, oh, and that's internalized ableism.
Or that's internalized fat phobia, orthat's internalized capitalism telling

(29:54):
me that like, if I'm not productive,I'm worthless, or I'm nothing.
That's one side of it.
But I think the more impactful side,this may be less obvious maybe even
harder to talk about because it justfeels like magic sometimes is really
supporting people to to re-root, you know,like we were talking about earlier, to

(30:18):
reconnect, to reconnect with themselves,to reconnect with, whatever you want to
call it, spirit, source, the collective.
So some of what I do with folksis, supporting them to tap into
their bodies and their intuition.
Like, I did it with a client this morning.
And so they've beenexperiencing a lot of grief.
And I was like, okay, lay down,get yourself comfy, and we're going

(30:40):
to ask your body some questions.
And the way that I think about intuition,voice of wisdom, whatever you want to
call it, is that when we're consulting,that we are consulting this vast
algorithm that includes the wisdom ofthe earth, the wisdom of our ancestors,
just like so much more than what we canhold in our beautiful little brains.

(31:03):
So I think that's part of the work,too, is just getting people, in that
connection again and in the practiceof consulting that connection.

Yeah.
I'm curious if we can buildon that a little bit more.
So we've got these two dimensions, right?
First dimension is let's namesystems of domination, separation
and oppression that are showing up.
I think it's like rampant in anykind of healing circles that we,
we talk about it as great let'slook at your internal narrative.

(31:33):
Okay.
That's your internal narrative.
We're not even talking aboutwhere it came from, but implicitly
it's sort of a you thing.
Like you, you've got thisinternal narrative, right?
Like, you know, and it's not therapy.
So we're not going to talk about whereit came from in your childhood, but,
you know, we're just going to kind ofleave it at it's inside you, right?
And you're, you're naming this firstreally important piece of, okay let's name

(31:56):
that you actually didn't come up with thisnarrative, at least most of it probably.
This is patriarchy.
This is white supremacy, right?
This is ableism.
What do you see whenyou do that for folks?
Like what tends to happen?

Yeah, it kind of depends on.
Where people are at, like in their ownunderstanding of power and domination
in this country or like how much they'vethought about some of these things.
Because sometimes I can be like does thatsmell like anything to you and they're
like, yeah, white supremacy culture.

(32:30):
And then it's like, really quick.
And it's like, well, obviouslylike I don't want to be doing that.
But sometimes it's more of aconversation of like, you know, I could
be full of shit, but I think maybesome of this is internalized ableism.
Like, do you want to takea look at that together?
And, I think what's useful about namingit for folks is that when they see it,

(32:53):
it's become so much easier to let it go.
And they become so much more inspired tolean into what's actually true for them.
And I think it's, it's also like youwere pointing out, it being a you thing.
You know, like we don't need to be puttingmore stuff on people, making them feel
bad about who they are and how theirbrains work and all that kind of thing.
And I, I think it's helpful forpeople to see like, that's not me.

(33:18):
That's not me.
Like I was just programmed withthat and that's really not me.
And it's not true.
I'm not trying to follow that.

Yeah, yeah.
And it's it also in my experience, causeI do this with my clients as well, you
don't have to fix it as much either.
Right.
I think when it's easy to get fixated,on like, oh, well I've got this thing,
this, this place my mind goes, thatcauses me to, things get harder, I get
stuck, or I get stopped, I hold back.
Um, okay, well, what do I do about it?

(33:46):
You know, I kind of need to, Ineed to figure out a thing or
technique or strategy or change itor whatever, whatever sort of default
tendency is about how to addresssomething like that coming up.
When you name like, yeah, well doesthis sound like internalized patriarchy?
Patriarchal culturetells us da da da da da.
Sounds like I'm hearingsome of that in this.
Does that resonate at all?
Suddenly it's like, oh yeah, right.

(34:09):
Great.
And at least in my experience, mostof the time people aren't like,
great, what do I do about that?
Like, as an internal personalthing, what do I do about that?
It's kind of like, right, thatwas never me in the first place.
It's not like a me thing that Ihave to then go do something about.
It's just like conditioning I've received.

Mhmm.

Well our time is drawing to a close in a few minutes
here, but as we uh, start to wrap up,I'm curious to hear what's been feeding
you, like, where have you been gettingsources of inspiration, that you might
want to recommend to our listeners?
Whether that's books, poems,thought leaders, podcasts.

Yeah.
For folks with health challengeswho also have a creative side or a
crafty side, I want to recommend,uh, Jenni Grover, J E N N I.
She's @CoachJenniGrover onInstagram, and she's been a chronic
illness coach longer than me.
She's ten years ahead of me, andshe's specifically right now,

(35:08):
a wellness coach for makers.
She also has a book called ChronicBabe 101 about how to live an
awesome life with chronic illness.
And she's just a delight and she,I don't know, she keeps me going.
Do you know, uh, Bernadine Evaristo?
She's written a bunch of books.
Girl, Woman, Other ismaybe her most famous.

(35:29):
Girl, Woman, Other, is like one ofthe coolest books I've ever read,
in part because of the way that it'swritten, like the punctuation, it's like
written like poetry and every chapteris the story of a different woman.
And it goes like all acrossgenerations, nationalities, races, etc.
It's just an incredible work of art.
And then, her other book abouther own experience is just

(35:50):
so sweet and so inspiring.
Like you and I are big on like, uh,sticky notes, we've talked about this.
Like putting our goals on stickynotes and she had one that said,
um, I'm gonna win the Booker Prize.
And she did recently!
She got acceptedalongside Margaret Atwood.

(36:12):
And I just think that's way cool.
I just, I really, I've been reallyappreciating recently like artists'
dedication to their craft and justknowing like, this is what I'm here
to do and nothing else matters.
And I've just been thinkingabout that a lot and trying to
embrace that in my own life.

Hell yeah Thank you
.Noëlle Janka: Yeah Do you have any on your plate right now?
Yeah.
Wildchoir just came outwith their EP album.
And it's this incredible spiritualsocial change choir music.
With this really beautifuljustice orientation.

Thanks for sharing.

So um where can folks connect with you
and keep learning from you?

Yeah.
noellejanka.com, noellejanka on Instagram.
LinkedIn, if that's your speed.
Um, and then the book, Rebel Healing isavailable wherever books are sold online
and in some bookstores and libraries.

Thank you so much for being here, for chatting
and, uh, so, so grateful to bebuddies on this path together.
So.
Thanks, friend.

It's so nourishing and so joyful for me.
Thank you, Jeremy.

Thank you so much for listening and thanks to Noel for
sharing her wisdom and expertise here.
Check out the show notes for links tothe resources that Noelle mentioned
and other ways to connect with her.
Episode five comes out in two weekswith nonviolence trainer and activist.
Kazu Haga.

Kazu Haga (37:52):
And so I think so much of the work that we need to do starts within our
own movement spaces of like, how do wecreate that culture where even if I do
or say the worst possible thing, I knowthat I still belong because it's the way
that the universe is structured, right?
There's nothing outside of belonging.
And so how do we givepeople that felt sense?

So make sure to subscribe in your podcast app
of choice so you can catch thatepisode and all the future ones.
If you'd like to tap into theresources I've collected are around
personal and systemic transformation,please head over to widerroots.com
to sign up for the free newsletter.
If you have any questions ortopics that you would love to see
us cover on the podcast, you canemail me podcast@widerroots.com.

(38:38):
And you can follow the podcaston Instagram at widerrootspod.
Special thanks to Josh, Jessica,Kristen, Lilah and Ben for
offering feedback on this episode.
And a big thanks to Wildchoir forthe theme music for this show.
You're currently listening to their song,remember Me, which will play us out.

(38:58):
See you next time.

(39:52):
Alright.
ready.
I don't know why I'mgonna count myself down.

Can't wait for
the
blooper video

Yeah, There's going to be a blooper reel at the end for sure.

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