April 9, 2024 • 42 mins
“My starting point is less about agitating for change and more about empowering people to believe that they can be actors in their own lives. We fundamentally believe that everyone has a stake in climate change, that everyone can make, can affect change around it.”
Check out the episode page for the transcript and a full list of the resources mentioned in this episode: https://widerroots.com/6
Today's episode features Charly Cox, author of the book "Climate Change Coaching."
In this conversation, Charly's approach to holding a systemic view stands out. She not only believes in our client's ability to change but also in the system's ability to change. Her coaching helps clients see their situation from this broader perspective. Charly shares her story about realizing that coaches don't have to be "neutral" and can bring their own values forward in their work.
Some background on Charly Cox and her work: She founded an organization called The Climate Change Coaches, which focuses on empowering climate leaders with coaching skills. Their climate coaching approach helps leaders and individuals find their unique role in addressing the climate crisis. It motivates them to take action and enact behavior change at the personal, organizational, and systemic levels.
Key moments
- 01:39 - Charly Cox's Journey to Climate Change Coaching
- 06:20 - Bridging Climate and Coaching
- 13:48 - The Unique Approach of Climate Change Coaching
- 20:26 - "Having an agenda" vs living your values as a coach
- 32:39 - Charly’s sources of nourishment
- 34:42 - Closing
Resources & Links
- The Climate Change Coaches (the organization Charly founded)
- Climate Change Coaching by Charly Cox (book)
- Terra.Do
- The Uninhabitable Earth by David Wallace-Wells (book)
- Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
- Joanna Macy
- Margaret Wheatley
- Eco-Dharma by David Loy (book)
- We Are The Great Turning (podcast with Jess Serrante)
- Climate Change Coaching Mastery course
- Green Transition Coach Course
Connect with Charly Cox
Follow the podcast
- WiderRoots.com - Join the...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charly Cox (00:00):
My start point is less agitating for change and more
empowering people to believe thatthey can be actors in their own lives.
And I think that's probably why TheClimate Change Coaches is the way it is.
We fundamentally believe that everyone hasa stake in climate change, that everyone
can make, can affect change around it.
Jeremy Blanchard (00:21):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast, a show about
how we can use the power of coachingand personal transformation to create
the world we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard.
I'm a coach for social movement leaders.
And today's episode is withCharly Cox, author of the
book, Climate Change Coaching.
In this conversation, I reallyloved Charly's approach to
holding a systemic view.
(00:43):
And not only believing in our client'sability to change, but also believing
in the system's ability to change.
And helping our clients seeit from that perspective.
You'll get to hear her story about how sherealized that we don't have to be quote
unquote neutral as coaches and how wecan really bring our own values forward.
A little background onCharlie Cox and her work.
(01:03):
She founded an organization calledThe Climate Change Coaches, which
focuses on empowering climateleaders with coaching skills.
Their climate coaching approach helpsleaders and individuals find their
unique role to play in addressing theclimate crisis and feel motivated to
take action and enact behavior change atthe personal level, the organizational
(01:23):
level and the systemic level.
If you're not already followingthe podcast on Instagram, you can
find us there at wider roots pod.
It's a great place to see some of thehighlight clips from each episode,
as well as quotes and other thingsthat don't fit into an episode.
All right.
Let's dive in.
(01:44):
Hi Charly.
Thanks so much for being here.
Charly Cox (01:46):
It is lovely to
join you today.
Jeremy Blanchard (01:47):
I first heard your name through our mutual friend Jess Serrante,
who is a climate coach and who was ourguest on episode one to help me get the
whole foundation of this podcast set up.
And, I wanted to have you on the showto talk about obviously climate change
coaching and the book climate changecoaching and the work you're doing there.
(02:08):
Particularly because there's thissweet, generative nature of getting
so specific at an intersectionlike this that I really admire.
And the way that you've broughtcoaching and climate change together.
And,
So I just appreciate whatyou've explored here.
I want to like have the chance toshare that wisdom with our listeners.
Charly Cox (02:28):
Thank you.
Thanks.
It's a real pleasure.
And Jess obviously is in thebook as well, so, it's, there's a
lovely kind of, loop closing here
Jeremy Blanchard (02:37):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I love that you have all these casestudies and examples and stories
from people out in the field doingclimate coaching of different sorts
or facilitation or other forms ofinner and outer work like that.
So, it really adds like this wholerichness to, the content of the book.
To start out, I'm curious who issomeone who inspires you to do the
(03:00):
work that you do for transformation?
I'd love to like invite that energyor that person into the spacel
Charly Cox (03:06):
I think this might sound like a hacked answer,
but it's probably my children.
If I'm really honest, it probably is mychildren that keep me doing this in the
sense that they are in my life every day.
They are in the future in asadults in a very powerful way.
And they're the reason that I,feel like I woke up to climate
change in the first place.
(03:28):
So I would probably say it'sthem more than anybody else.
Jeremy Blanchard (03:32):
Well, it makes so much sense.
This is such an intergenerationalchallenge topic that we're facing
that makes a lot of sense to me
I'm curious to hear, was there amoment when you realized that climate
coaching was a part of your calling?
Was there like a turningpoint for you in that journey?
Charly Cox (03:52):
There was a moment that I realized climate change was a part of
my calling or what I needed to focus on.
Because when I started, climatechange coaching wasn't really a thing.
And when we started and launchedour website, which was the
climatechangecoaches.com which isvery unimaginative, we were just
flooded with coaches who saidthings like, this time last year,
(04:13):
I Googled it, there was nothing.
And then I Googled it and I found you.
So in a way, when I decided that Iwanted to do something about climate
change, I assumed immediately Iwould have to stop being a coach
because it didn't seem to exist.
And I was lucky that I knew people,some of whom are in our team who were
coaching people in sustainability.
And that was allowed, you know,if you ask people in coaching,
(04:36):
you know, is that allowed?
They say that's allowed, yes.
Because they're coaching sustainabilityleaders as leadership coaching.
I said but I'm not allowed to havethe same kinds of conversations with
people who aren't in sustainabilityor, the environment movement.
No, that's having an agenda.
You're not allowed to do that.
So this huge chasm we had to crossin helping people understand that,
(04:57):
that these two things lived together.
And I'd say for me personally, ittook me a good two years to feel.
The courage to change my website.
So it said climate change coachand, work out exactly what that was.
I mean, I, from 2016, 2018, I just fumbledaround having lots of conversations,
(05:18):
trying to piece different things together,drawing lots of maps of systems, trying
to work out where everything fitted,and still thinking I'm probably gonna
have to quit and become a solarpanel engineer or a climate scientist
or something that wasn't me at allbecause I couldn't see my place in it.
And it really makes me realizethat it's not that long ago
that, that that was very normal.
(05:41):
And now we have things in tostep outta the coaching industry.
We have, programs like Terra.Dothat are aiming to move a million
people into climate jobs in Europe.
So in a way, my starting point was readingthe Uninhabitable Earth and sitting on
a beach in Dorsett in the UK, which isa sort of coastal county, and feeling
(06:02):
homeless and feeling huge despair,feeling like I wanted to run and realizing
I couldn't, there was nowhere to runto, and said that was my starting point.
And then I don't like thosefeelings, so I have to do something.
I have to roll up my
sleeves and do something.
So yeah, and then it took me two years towork out how to marry that to coaching.
Jeremy Blanchard (06:20):
Yeah, it makes me curious, at some point in that
exploration around coaching, which youwere already in, and then climate, which
you were, waking up to in a really bigway, in like a full, wow, I need to
do something about this kind of way.
Was there a moment where youstarted to see a possibility
for how these two came together?
(06:40):
What did you see was possible tobring coaching and climate together?
Charly Cox (06:44):
I think there were multiple little moments.
There were lots of little eureka moments.
I started out by.
Learning
I began to listen and I had conversationswith people and I would always say,
tell me the problem you need fixing.
And most of them, they wouldgive me problems I couldn't
in a million years fix.
But occasionally they'd give me somethingthat sounded a bit like what I did.
And then I would also listen tolots of podcasts and interviews.
(07:07):
And I remember there was this momentwhere I stopped listening, like a person
and started listening like a coach.
And I suddenly heard.
Powerlessness anddisempowerment writ large.
But I also heard threat response when Ilistened to politicians and I thought, oh,
I've been listening to these all wrong.
I've been listening like a, punter.
I should be listening like a coach.
(07:27):
And actually there's ahuge emotional component.
So that was one of those kind of moments.
But I think the, the fundamentalone for us was that, I was invited
to give a speech at London's firstzero waste Christmas market, which
was this cold Saturday in a railwayarch with lots of people selling zero
waste products, ready for Christmas.
(07:50):
And I said, I have no ideawhat I would give a speech on,
you know, back then in 2018.
You know, what am I gonna say?
I've only just started this thing.
I don't even know what it is.
But I said, I've got this idea.
I think we could bring coaches toyour market and I think we could
coach members of the public for free.
I wanna prove that you can coachthis topic, that part of the
problem here is disempowerment.
(08:11):
And I want to see what happens if youoffer people a conversation in which they
can move from disempowered to empowered.
Not information about climatechange, but just this shift.
I want to know if it's possible,'cause people tell me it isn't.
And she had fortunately just trained as acoach by some fluke and she said, do it.
That sounds great.
So I rang a bunch of people, and I said,can you come to London on your own dime on
(08:35):
a cold Saturday, right before Christmas?
And they all said yes.
Some of them canceled paid jobs to come.
They all came down and we stood in thefreezing cold and it was really hard
getting shopper's attention and nobodyliked having to kinda grab people.
And, but then I saw, when Ilooked across the room, I saw
people hugging, the coaches I sawreal relief on people's faces.
(08:58):
' I, coached a group of three young womenwho, it was quite a lot to handle.
They, all of them had huge amounts ofdoubt and despair and scarcity going
on, and, and I just sort of got them tokind of almost coach each other in the
conversation and watch that change happen.
And it was just, it was just magic.
So even though we said we are neverdoing a market on a Saturday again, it
(09:20):
was freezing and it was really hard.
We said, we're never doing that again.
But we've proved the concept.
You can coach this topic with peoplewho are not involved in this topic.
We just have to work out how to findthe, the people that really need
it the most and give it to them.
Jeremy Blanchard (09:36):
Yeah.
Something that's occurring to meas you're saying that is I come
from social movement spaces, right?
I was politicized in college, gotinvolved in the climate movement and
Our theory of change was.
social movements are the means forchange that we're kind of, most have a
proven history, a proven track recordof creating massive social change.
(09:56):
And in my theory of change, there'sa lot of space for someone getting
politicized and like joining togetherwith community to take collective action.
But the on-ramp to that.
Is some kind of political momentwhere someone helps you see
that community organizing andcollective action is a thing.
(10:18):
What I appreciate about what you're sayingis I imagine you're taking people who
have a care in their heart around climatechange, who are obviously willing to have
this conversation and you're invitingthem into a conversation where you help
them, increase their sense of agency.
And as you said, empowerment.
It just feels like a different on rampinto how someone is now, engaged in
(10:40):
work and the particular work that theymight do after that could obviously
look very different, but that,That's such an important pivot point.
So, so cool.
Charly Cox (10:50):
That's really interesting.
I think our starting point was,there was actually research that
said, you know, the majority ofthe British public are concerned.
And so, we grabbed that.
We're like, okay, so it's notthe case that people don't care.
'cause people had loads of advice forus, some of which was unh unhelpful.
You know?
And then there were, there wereother pieces of advice, like,
you know, people don't care.
(11:10):
People don't really wanna change,you know, I don't wanna change.
Nobody wants to change.
Forget, don't talk to individuals.
It's not about individuals, it's aboutsystems and governments and corporations.
I still agree with that, but I seeindividuals as one corner of that
triangle, which is, you know, theway that Kimberly Nicholas sees
it, who wrote the foreward for ourbook, she's a climate scientist, and
she says, you know, there are thesethree, and we see individuals as the.
(11:32):
trend setters, you know, no oneindividual won't change everything, but
individuals grouping together as to yourpoint of people, people coming together
in communities have enormous power.
They just don't realize they do.
So I sort of don't, I don't buythat individuals don't do it either.
My start point is less agitatingfor change and more empowering
(11:55):
people to believe that they canbe actors in their own lives.
And I think that's probably why TheClimate Change Coaches is the way it is.
We fundamentally believe that everyonehas a stake in climate change, an
obvious point, but that everyone canmake, can affect change around it.
I really get upset when I see peoplemaking decisions from a place of fear.
(12:18):
I want people to make decisions from aplace of values, groundedness, logic,
whatever you want to call it, but notthese threatened, frightened, disempowered
places where we don't make good decisions.
And so that's probably our start point.
It's about connecting well to eachother, finding love, finding safety,
and changing from that place.
Jeremy Blanchard (12:40):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
So much I resonate in what you're sharing.
Just to share a few anecdotes on that.
One is I can so relate to the peoplewho came to you and said, we're Googling
climate coaching or climate changecoaching and we're not finding anything.
That has been my journey over thelast like 10, 11, 12 years of Googling
social justice coaching, socialchange coaching, social movement
(13:02):
coaching, and really finding almostnothing for a very, very long time.
And then eventually starting, a verybrief project called Coaching for
Social Change that was bringing coachingskills to social movement leaders
here in the US and I still Google itfrequently and the number of results
we're seeing is going up and up.
(13:22):
There's a few coaching schools thathave a social justice focus or,
especially in the us and there'sway, way, way more coaches out there.
I found like hundreds of coacheswho mentioned social change, social
justice, systems of oppression,collective liberation, those
kinds of things on their websites.
And I'm like, I was so heartenedthe day I started realizing just how
(13:44):
many there were, how many individualcoaches who already had this focus.
Charly Cox (13:47):
That's amazing.
Jeremy Blanchard (13:48):
What does climate change coaching have its sight set on?
Like what is it paying attention tothat might be different than other kinds
of coaching or mainstream coaching?
Charly Cox (14:00):
I think the difference between climate change coaching and.
more traditional types of coachingis that we have to see and believe in
the system as well as the individual.
I've trained as a systems coachand it's phenomenal training.
It's really powerful and Iwas still able to be outside
of the system I was coaching.
(14:21):
So a good for instance is I still coacha husband and wife team who are run a
business together and I coach them ontheir business and I'm coaching them as
a system, but I'm not in their businessor their marriage for that matter.
So I can be un-triggered, unattachedto whatever is going on, and I
can just stand as this beautiful,impartial advisor and help them.
(14:41):
when we are coaching peopleand they bring climate.
We may start to feel like we've got astake there or we've got a similar topic
running, you know, in our own heads.
So in, in traditional coaching, youmight say to me, I really want this
podcast to be a success and let's sayI have a podcast and I think, yeah.
And that's really important when it'snot about podcasts, but it's, I'm
(15:02):
worried my kids aren't gonna want tohave kids and I won't get grandchildren.
And you think, yeah, I've got that one.
And then they say, and thatmakes me feel really bereft.
I feel, empty.
And you think, yeah, I feel that way too.
And then you have to getto that lived experience.
So their relationship withthose feelings is different to my
relationship, to those feelings.
(15:23):
So that's the sort of practicalway we have to be able to
unattach ourselves from this.
But we also have to, in a reallybloody minded way, believe in
change and, and that's daft to saybecause change is happening all the
time, whether we like it or not.
But we have to believe in thesystem's ability to change positively.
(15:44):
And we have to believe in the personin front of us ability to change.
Jeremy Blanchard (15:49):
Yeah.
I'm curious about the beliefpart you mentioned there, right?
Like, oh, one of the biggest thingswe're doing, because this is such
a big topic, it is so easy to getresigned to feel at a distance from it.
I know for me, when I, realizedthat part of my life was about.
Working on climate
I was in college and I wasstudying something else, and I
(16:11):
took a class and every week of theclass was a different inequality.
So it's like racism,sexism, economic inequality.
And we ended on environmental inequalityand we only spent a week on climate.
part of what was so compelling to meabout why it needed to be addressed and
why I needed to devote myself to it wasbecause it was such a complex problem.
And I was like, oh my gosh, thisis so hard to understand and to see
(16:35):
causes and then we have 20 linksin the chain, or a hundred links in
the chain between that and effects,and our brains are not good at that.
And so, because of thatcomplexity, I was like.
Anyone who feels any inroad intocaring about this needs to be working
on it because it's gonna be so hardto get enough of us working on it.
And, you know, this was before theeffects of climate change were as
(16:58):
in our face as they are right now.
I guess where I want to go with thatis I'm curious about this belief
piece because what you're doing ishelping people increase their sense
of belief and autonomy, the sense thatthey can have some kind of an impact
on such a large scale complex issue.
What do you do when people don't believe?
What do you do when belief wanes?
Like That's, gonna come and go.
(17:19):
And for me,
sometimes I think about how belief isreally good, but also not that stable.
It's not the most reliable resourcethat we have in our work for change.
And I've needed to explore that inmyself of like, well, what are the
other things I can draw on thatare actually kind of more reliable?
So I'm curious how, how do youthink about that when belief.
It isn't there.
Or when it wanes.
Charly Cox (17:41):
I like that belief is unstable.
It's almost like sort of a nuclearisotope or something that we're holding.
You can swap out belief.
For me there's like disempowermentempowerment, disbelief, belief,
indifference, motivation, dissonance,resonance, which for the coaches
listening, they'll, you know that,that it is all the same fear and love.
(18:02):
It's all the same sort of feelingwith different words around it.
And all coaching is ever done ismoved people, I mean, this is very
reductive from one to the other.
So I suppose, in terms of what doyou do when people don't believe?
It depends.
'cause you name different states there.
So if someone's just, not believingin their own agency, like, oh, I'm
(18:23):
not the kind of person who, thenthere's an obvious piece of building
up their belief with some championing,with some, helping them work out,
what the initial steps might be.
If someone is, outright resistant,then it's almost certainly about
finding out what the values are thatare holding them in that resistance.
(18:43):
What do they feel isabout to be threatened?
Soon as they're aware of what the valueis, they return to feeling good and right.
Resistant.
People feel bad andwrong, they feel outcast.
And then what they do is theymay get other people around them.
So they've got a group of peoplewho are resist and then they
don't feel that way anymore.
So actually helping those people workout like what is this core value that's
(19:03):
sitting underneath and how can we releaseit, work out whether it really is a
threat, and if it is, then what can wedo to make sure it isn't in this change?
Because if you ask someone forwhat they want to do when they're
sort of demotivated, feeling stuck,feeling unsure, feeling frightened,
they will just give you low gradepoor-quality risk averse-ideas.
(19:25):
And so you might get them into action,but it'll be pretty rubbish action.
And as coaches, we know that whenwe build that resonance with people,
we just tap them and they say, I'mgonna do all this stuff, you know,
because they're feeling capable again.
Jeremy Blanchard (19:50):
Yeah, I mean, that's so true, right?
The one thing that I consistentlyhave my sight set on, especially in
leadership coaching, is this personis going to keep growing as a leader,
growing as a leader, growing as a leader.
It's like the transformationalagenda as some schools put it, right?
I have my transformational glasseson of who this person is becoming
. What this person is getting out of coaching is not solving the problem
(20:10):
that they brought to the session.
I'm pretty uninvested in whether theysolve the current problem I'm invested
in, who are you becoming as a leader?
So that 12 months from now, this problemdoesn't even phase you so much anymore.
This type of problem doesn't phase you.
Charly Cox (20:25):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeremy Blanchard (20:27):
I wanna go back to something you brought up earlier
when you said that people discouragedyou from climate coaching because,
oh, you're having an agenda.
Sure, you can do sustainabilitybecause it's just leadership coaching,
but, you can't do climate becausethat's a political issue, presumably.
And this is, we can't,we can't touch that.
That's having an agenda.
I was just talking about this inthe episode that, just released
(20:49):
episode three with Dara Silverman.
We were talking about this tensionbetween can we have an agenda for
clients and what does that mean?
You've talked about it a lot alreadyin this conversation, how you've
helped people move along the spectrumof action, from resistant to,
you know, willing to consider it.
I'm curious.
You write in the book about the differencebetween having an agenda and having
(21:11):
values, and so I'm curious to hear more.
How do you think about that distinction?
Charly Cox (21:17):
One of the things I found myself writing in the book
was, what climate change coachingcan help with and what it can't.
And one of the things in the can'tcolumn was making people care about
something they don't care about.
And then we wrote, but we're not surethere's any modality that can do that.
Because I think often when I getasked that question, it's actually
what people are actually askingis, how do we make people care?
(21:39):
You know, how do we makepeople care about this?
Well, you don't.
But actually I think the goodnews is most people do care.
They just feel reallydisempowered or a bit indifferent.
They've got other stuff going on.
Maybe they care more about,the state of social care.
Well, there is a direct link.
All of these things sit under the umbrellaof climate ultimately because they're
all happening on the planet we live in.
(22:00):
So, we can always make links with people.
So there's kind of a spectrum, I guess.
There's people who are kind of like,I'm interested, I'm probably gonna
start a conversation with you 'cause I'minterested, but I'm not doing anything.
And we have to hold those verydelicately and that's where we have
to ask lots of questions and try andfind out what people do care about and
(22:21):
maybe try and show them those links.
And then, you know, there's peoplewho are wanting to get on the pitch
but don't really know how and where.
And that's when we might startusing a bit bit more of a coaching
approach and like really sort oflike, okay, so what could you do?
And let's look at thedifferent things you've tried.
So the point is that you'renot really holding an agenda.
(22:42):
If you're not wielding it, it'sokay to just ask questions about
what do you think, what's happening?
But as professional coaches, Ithink there's a bit of a, is it
paradox that basically we tell ourclients they should have a purpose.
Purpose is very important.
You should have a purpose andyou should live by your values.
But somehow, as coaches, we're supposedto be these kind of neutral entities
(23:06):
that don't have either of those things.
And I actually don't think that's true.
I mean, it's obviously not true,but I don't think that's true for
why clients buy us because whetherwe try to squash that or not, it
does come out on our websites.
It does come out in oursample sessions with people.
And that's partly why they like us.
They say, this is someone withintegrity, or this is someone
(23:28):
who, cares about honesty.
You know, so people can see ourvalues in everything we are doing.
And trying to pretend we don'thave them is just impossible.
So I really make a stand for coachesliving by their sense of purpose and if
their purpose tells them that they want tobe stewards to the planet, then why can't
they bring that into coaching somehow?
And then the question then ishow you bring it into coaching.
(23:50):
And there's lots of different ways, andsometimes you don't, sometimes it's just
not appropriate, it doesn't come up them.
Jeremy Blanchard (23:56):
So I'm hearing a couple things in there.
One, which I talked about with Daraas well, is who are our clients?
Right.
So the most base permission thata coach can give themselves is,
I'm putting this on my website,that these are my values, right?
That I don't have to subscribe to.
What I think is a very dominant cultureparadigm of, okay, you're a professional.
You're like, not just coaching,but professionals in general.
(24:18):
Professionalism in white supremacyculture we keep politics
out of this and dah, dah, dah.
dah, dah.
So that's a very base permission thata coach can give themselves is cool,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna name my values,I'm gonna name what I care about.
And that allows you to, invite inclients who might be aligned with you.
And then there's automaticallymore space to have certain
kinds of conversations, right?
People know you're a climatechange coach, they're coming to
(24:39):
you, they're already interestedin that pretty explicitly, right?
But then I'm hearing this otherlevel where there's a way that
you can also bring it in that is,just reminding people that they
exist inside these systems, right?
We haven't considered this, right?
Most coaching might stop at the individuallevel of, cool, you've got a plan for you
that considers you and maybe your project.
(25:01):
And what I hear the invitationfrom you is, you can say, have we
thought about your connection tothe environment, your connection to
climate and our collective wellbeing.
Is there some way that you want toconsider that as a gentle invitation,
just so it doesn't get missed?
Charly Cox (25:17):
There's a really obvious one, which is I remember working with someone
on their five year plan and I said like,should we think about what's gonna be
happening economically, politically, andenvironmentally in the next five years?
Yeah, we should, but then actuallywith that exact same person who
isn't climate related, theypredate my interest in climate.
We've been working togetherfor about nine years.
(25:38):
I've never explicitly mentionedclimate to them except for that moment.
But the funny thing is that sinceI've become a climate change coach,
that person has started to adoptmore sustainability measures at work
and will come back and report to me.
And I think it's just the proximityto someone else who has badged up.
So, even though I've never said,you know, you really should be doing
(26:00):
something about club, I've never donethat, actually, just my kind of subtle
influence or my soft influence onher, because I do it and she likes me
and therefore she wants to do it too.
There's so many different ways ofinfluencing people, and I've met so many,
environmentalists who've said to me,I've done all these things in my life,
(26:20):
and I never talked about them becauseI didn't wanna shame other people.
So I, I stopped flying 10 yearsago, or one person said I only
had one child because of climate.
I never told anyone.
And that was a massive mistake.
So, even if coaches don't want to bringit into their coaching practices, just
living their values in the world andtelling people why is really powerful
(26:43):
as an a in a movement of change.
Jeremy Blanchard (26:45):
Yeah.
One of the things that makesme think about is what are we
actually talking about when wesay having an agenda for a client?
And there is, I'm getting so much outof your distinction between having an
agenda and what that actually means andhaving values that you can invite in.
Having an agenda, in my understandingof it is, alright, you're bringing
(27:06):
up your romantic relationshipand I have an evaluation, an
assessment of that, that you reallyneed to leave this relationship.
This is really not good for you.
And then all of my coaching is shapedaround my belief that this, we really
gotta get you out of this, right?
Because now it stopped being a partnershipand it really did become my agenda.
(27:27):
It's so valuable to have differentlanguage for it, of saying, I do as
a coach have values and you can counton me to bring them into our session,
and I'm gonna bring them in in a waythat is still in partnership, because
that's what we're doing, is we arepartnering together around this.
That's just so valuable.
So thank you for that distinction.
I find that very helpful.
(27:48):
Yeah.
Charly Cox (27:49):
Yeah, I would definitely say that.
So there's this piece of agendawhich is, I know best for this
client as you articulated.
There's a smaller agenda, which isin this tiny bit of this topic, I've
got an idea and you should totallydo it 'cause my idea is brilliant.
And then there's like a bigger agenda,which in a way we were encouraged to have
(28:09):
as coaches, which is who you could become.
And that is, it should be co-designed.
You know, if you said to me.
I want to be one of, America's topfive podcasters, then I should want
that for you as much as you want it foryou, because I'm your coach and I wanna
partner with you in that and get you that
(28:31):
If that's what I want for you, but youdon't, don't care about that at all.
That's not why you're doingthis, then that's problematic.
So there's this kind ofbig piece agenda as well.
But I think that gets collapsed withus having our own purpose and we are
absolutely allowed to have, why are we notallowed to have a purpose as coaches as a
little foot stamping on the ground there?
(28:52):
Like, I want a purpose too, you know?
Jeremy Blanchard (28:54):
Yeah, I love this conversation.
So helpful.
I wish I got to listen to our conversationwhen I was, brand new to coaching.
I'm sure you do too.
you know, these are like themessages that our former selves,
wish we had and that we'veearned, through hard work.
So I really appreciate that.
I am curious to hear a little bitabout your own coaching growth areas or
(29:16):
the areas where you're experimenting.
Is there anywhere at this levelof coaching where you're trying
something out or a question inyour coaching approach that you're
moving with or curious about that?
Charly Cox (29:29):
I think that the bigger thing I've brought in
is probably Buddhism actually.
And that's influenced by my husband,who used to be a Buddhist monk,
for about seven years in Thailand.
And, and also influenced by, peoplelike Joanna Macy, people like Margaret
Wheatley, who you've got coming on.
And their approach.
And, and I think, again, in traditionalcoaching, I didn't really see the
(29:53):
need for this stuff, you know, Icould sort of see the need, but,
well, it's mindfulness, isn't it?
It's helping people calm down,helping people feel relaxed.
It's not that at all.
It's how we relate, you know, andrealizing that and also doing a bit
of Acceptance and Commitment Therapytraining and realizing it's, everything's
in this space between how we relate toour thoughts because our thoughts are not
(30:15):
us shock, you know, that was a new one.
How we relate to the climatecrisis, how we relate to other
people, how we relate to systems.
Often it's that kind of helpingthem to move towards acceptance.
Except not.
As David Loy, the, the, authorEco-Dharma, who I interviewed for
our book, he said, acceptance isn'tabout giving up and saying, well,
(30:38):
that's that then It's the way it is.
Acceptance is aboutresponding appropriately.
It's about saying, sothis is what's happened.
And rather than hang on to what shouldhave happened instead or what should
happen in the future, I'm gonna say, asthey said on the West Wing, what's next?
You know, what's next?
What's next?
You know, I'm going to respondappropriately to what's right here.
(31:01):
And actually, if you think aboutit, so often we're hanging on tight
to, the government shouldn't havepushed, shouldn't have, promulgated
that law, that company shouldn'thave been allowed to do that thing.
And it hurts so much.
But we are suffering not the companywhen we have those painful thoughts.
And so we can acknowledge them,we can say, I'm really hurting,
I'm gonna just put them down andI'm gonna say like, what's next?
(31:25):
So that's coming into my coachingmore and more I would say.
I, I
Jeremy Blanchard (31:28):
Yeah, I love that.
I feel like it's, some of the particularlypotent coaching sessions I can remember
are ones where the takeaway from thecoaching session is, making space to
be with what is actually happening now.
Not what you thought should be happeningor what used to be happening, and to
just arrive fully in this is what's so.
(31:50):
This is what, so can I, can Irelate to what, so, and yeah.
Then what's next?
Charly Cox (31:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Just noticing that in the, hereright now, there is no anxiety,
there's nothing that needs to bedone in the next minute, there might.
In the last minute.
There might have been, but hereright now, we can just connect
to now and it's so soothing.
Again, this was stuff that was sort ofover there when I trained in coaching.
(32:18):
This was sort of the, the woowoo endthat you couldn't do in boardrooms.
Well, I can tell you I'vedone it in boardrooms.
It just, it just about the languageyou use to make it acceptable.
But everybody gets this stuff and, it'sreally powerful to help people relate
better to each other even, but alsoparticularly to their own feelings.
Jeremy Blanchard (32:37):
I, love that.
Thank you.
As we draw towards a close, one ofthe questions I, ask all my guests
is, where you're getting yoursources of nourishment right now?
Now that you might wanna recommendcould be books, it could be someone
you're following, it could be aplace of nature, a practice you do.
Wondering what you wanna sharewith folks, and along those lines.
Charly Cox (32:57):
The main thing I do that I have missed so terribly
in the last five months is I gopaddle boarding and I go canoeing.
And it's just been too rough.
The river's been too high,it's been too wet and too cold.
And we are just weeks away from nowbeing able to get back out on the water.
My family and I in our big Canadiancanoe, or me on my paddleboard and
(33:19):
I, I've got a ruck sack that I boughtfrom a cheap outdoor shop for like $20.
That's big enough for my paddleboard.
And I shove everything in therucksack and I strap it on and I go
for mini adventures on my doorstep.
So I get a bus to somewhere that'ssort of roughly near and water, and
I walk to the water and sling thepaddleboard in and I go down the river,
(33:41):
get out and get another bus home.
And just the ingenuity of findingthose bus routes, which in the UK
that buses are a bit of a disaster.
It's just so rewarding.
You feel like you've cheated the system'cause you've had this adventure,
but yet you've been just down theroad from your house and often you
spend an hour, two, three hourspaddling down the river to then whip
(34:03):
past it in 20 minutes on the bus.
And it gives you a totally differentrelationship to your environment and
to the countryside and the locality.
And I really love that.
And I often, Jeremy, the, theworkaholic in me says, take a notebook
and pen and I don't write anything.
I take it, but I don't write anything.
so that's the big thingthat I've started doing.
(34:23):
And, I never thought I would bean outdoorsy person, but having
children has made that feel urgent.
And so we tried to find thething we loved and we, the water
was the, the thing we loved.
And we can't wait to get back on it.
Jeremy Blanchard (34:36):
Oh, I love that.
I love that, relationship tonature in the ways that you
find your connection outdoors
How can folks stay connectedwith you if they want to?
Obviously there's your book Climate ChangeCoaching, that the link to that will be
in the show notes, but what are otherways that folks can connect with you?
Charly Cox (34:51):
Please connect with me on LinkedIn and feel free to drop me a
message I love having, really interestingconversations with people, and I'm
often chatting there with people.
Look out for our website, whichis climatechangecoaches.com.
There's lots of interestingresources on there.
And also, look at our courses.
We have a course for professional coaches,the Climate Change Coaching Mastery course
(35:13):
that starts, on the 12th of March, andthen it runs as a fast track in November.
And so it's every March, everyNovember we run that course.
So that one is, and it's gotlike 28 ICF cus attached to it.
So if you're looking to re-accreditedyour credential and realizing
as I often do the, you don'thave enough, cus we can give you
almost all of them on that course.
And then the other thing, if you arenot a coach, but you are working in
(35:35):
social change, we have a a six weekprogram called the Green Transition
Coach Course, which is so fun.
And it's, two hours a week for six weeks.
And in that time we'll teach you howto change your, your conversations
completely around climate change.
So those, those two things wouldbe the things I'd point bill to, but
I'd also just say, just get in touch.
We love talking to coachesand to change agents.
(35:56):
That's where we get ourhope and positivity from.
So don't be a stranger.
Jeremy Blanchard (36:00):
Hmm.
Thanks.
Is there anything else that wedidn't cover today that feels like
important that you want to, touchon or share before we wrap up?
Charly Cox (36:08):
I think it's just that if you've come away from this conversation
thinking that was okay, but I, Idon't think I can do, I still don't
feel like I can step into this.
Then there's one otherthing that coaches can do.
Well, everyone can do actually, but thecoaches are even trained to do, but anyone
can do this, which is to be somethingdifferent in relation to this topic.
So many, conversations aboutclimate involve shame and blame.
(36:31):
So many conversations online arepolarizing and angry, and we are trained
to be non-judgmental, and compassionate.
We are trained to be able to be skillfulwith conflict, to have safe challenge,
to issue challenge in a way that's safe.
And let's not forget that when webecome go back to being citizens,
we take our coach hat off.
(36:51):
Let's just remember that.
And so even if you don't want tobe taking climate action or having
these avert conversations or trainingto be a climate change coach in
your everyday conversations, be theperson that says, oh, so you fly.
Okay.
You know, that's fine, but is thereanything else you think you could do
rather than the person that says, Ican't believe you're still flying.
(37:14):
You know.
Just be something differentbecause we need to make this
debate feel safer to engage with.
And so you can play a big role in doingthat, even if it's to say, yeah, I don't
really know what to do about it either.
I'm still learning too.
Do you want to go tryand find it out together?
That's another great way of helpingpeople into this space and we are
(37:37):
trained to be that way as coaches,so let's, let's take that out there
into the world, even if we are notovertly being climate change coaches.
Jeremy Blanchard (37:45):
Hmm.
Yeah.
I just appreciate theincredible dedication that
you have to empowering people.
That that's the note that you want toclose on, is we are all capable of making
this space of compassionate empowerment.
For folks.
I see that in everything we talked abouttoday and in how you show up in your work.
So thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing and yeah, so
(38:07):
grateful for this conversation.
Charly Cox (38:09):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
It's a real pleasure.
Thanks for inviting me on.
. Jeremy Blanchard: Thank you so much for listening to this
conversation with Charly Cox.
You can check out the show notes for linksto the resources that Charlie mentioned
and other ways to connect with her.
Episode seven comes out in two weeks withmy dear friend, Jess Serrante, who you
(38:31):
may remember from episode one this time.
She and I are going to be discussing hernew podcast, which is about to come out
with eco-spiritual teacher, Joanna Macy.
We're going to discuss her bigtakeaways, both from her conversations
with Joanna and her lessons learnedfrom making this project to reality.
And what kind of coachinglearnings we can take from that?
(38:53):
So I'm going to play a part ofthe trailer right now for you.
Jess Serrante (38:57):
All right, our recorders are on for the first time.
Joanna Macy (39:02):
We're in a situation that humanity's never been in before.
You know?
There've been wars,plagues, huge migrations.
But this concerns every human being.
One on Earth, and this is not somethingwe know how to even begin to think about.
Jess Serrante (39:28):
I'm Jess Serrante, host of Sounds True's newest
podcast, We Are the Great Turning.
In this 10 part series, I'm going tobring you into the home of my beloved
friend and teacher, Joanna Macy.
Joanna is 95 years old, and she'srevered in peace, justice, and
ecology movements around the world.
(39:50):
I'm an activist myself, and Joannahas taught me a lot about how
to live with my heart intact inthese times of global crisis.
Joanna Macy (39:58):
I want to reach and take hold.
Of that life wire ofreality, I wanna be here.
If I, I can't avoid climate change,then I wanna be here with all my
attention, with all my trust in life.
Jess Serrante (40:17):
In these episodes, I wanna invite you into a deeper sense
of your belonging and love for ourworld into connection with the great
possibilities that still exist for us.
And into action.
Joanna Macy (40:33):
We Are The Great Turning comes out April 22nd, Earth Day.
And you can listen atwearethegreatturning.
com or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jeremy Blanchard (40:44):
I am so excited for you all to have the chance to listen to these
episodes that Jess and Joanna have beenworking on for the last year and a half.
And really excited to share theconversation that I got have with
Jess coming out in a couple of weeks.
So make sure you subscribe in yourpodcast app to get notifications whenever
a new episode comes out of this show.
Really big, thanks to Kristin andChelsea who helped review this episode.
(41:08):
And thanks to wild choir as always forthe theme music for the show, you're
currently listening to their song.
Remember me, which will play us out.
All right.
See you next time.
Charly Cox (42:12):
Awesome.
Well, I mean, when we wrote the book,we realized we were, we were writing
two books and then we wrote one.
You know, I would used to write,if you're a coach, do this.
If you're not a coach, do this.
And then I realized I waswriting the same thing and I'd
be like, actually, just do this.
Because they're just human skills.
And so like, you know, yes there'ssome, there's some sort of witchcraft
and coach coaching that we can teachyou, but actually just like listening
(42:34):
really well, like everyone can do that,
Jeremy Blanchard (42:36):
Totally, totally.
My start point is less agitating for change and more
empowering people to believe thatthey can be actors in their own lives.
And I think that's probably why TheClimate Change Coaches is the way it is.
We fundamentally believe that everyone hasa stake in climate change, that everyone
can make, can affect change around it.
Jeremy Blanchard (00:21):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast, a show about
how we can use the power of coachingand personal transformation to create
the world we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard.
I'm a coach for social movement leaders.
And today's episode is withCharly Cox, author of the
book, Climate Change Coaching.
In this conversation, I reallyloved Charly's approach to
holding a systemic view.
(00:43):
And not only believing in our client'sability to change, but also believing
in the system's ability to change.
And helping our clients seeit from that perspective.
You'll get to hear her story about how sherealized that we don't have to be quote
unquote neutral as coaches and how wecan really bring our own values forward.
A little background onCharlie Cox and her work.
(01:03):
She founded an organization calledThe Climate Change Coaches, which
focuses on empowering climateleaders with coaching skills.
Their climate coaching approach helpsleaders and individuals find their
unique role to play in addressing theclimate crisis and feel motivated to
take action and enact behavior change atthe personal level, the organizational
(01:23):
level and the systemic level.
If you're not already followingthe podcast on Instagram, you can
find us there at wider roots pod.
It's a great place to see some of thehighlight clips from each episode,
as well as quotes and other thingsthat don't fit into an episode.
All right.
Let's dive in.
(01:44):
Hi Charly.
Thanks so much for being here.
Charly Cox (01:46):
It is lovely to
join you today.
Jeremy Blanchard (01:47):
I first heard your name through our mutual friend Jess Serrante,
who is a climate coach and who was ourguest on episode one to help me get the
whole foundation of this podcast set up.
And, I wanted to have you on the showto talk about obviously climate change
coaching and the book climate changecoaching and the work you're doing there.
(02:08):
Particularly because there's thissweet, generative nature of getting
so specific at an intersectionlike this that I really admire.
And the way that you've broughtcoaching and climate change together.
And,
So I just appreciate whatyou've explored here.
I want to like have the chance toshare that wisdom with our listeners.
Charly Cox (02:28):
Thank you.
Thanks.
It's a real pleasure.
And Jess obviously is in thebook as well, so, it's, there's a
lovely kind of, loop closing here
Jeremy Blanchard (02:37):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I love that you have all these casestudies and examples and stories
from people out in the field doingclimate coaching of different sorts
or facilitation or other forms ofinner and outer work like that.
So, it really adds like this wholerichness to, the content of the book.
To start out, I'm curious who issomeone who inspires you to do the
(03:00):
work that you do for transformation?
I'd love to like invite that energyor that person into the spacel
Charly Cox (03:06):
I think this might sound like a hacked answer,
but it's probably my children.
If I'm really honest, it probably is mychildren that keep me doing this in the
sense that they are in my life every day.
They are in the future in asadults in a very powerful way.
And they're the reason that I,feel like I woke up to climate
change in the first place.
(03:28):
So I would probably say it'sthem more than anybody else.
Jeremy Blanchard (03:32):
Well, it makes so much sense.
This is such an intergenerationalchallenge topic that we're facing
that makes a lot of sense to me
I'm curious to hear, was there amoment when you realized that climate
coaching was a part of your calling?
Was there like a turningpoint for you in that journey?
Charly Cox (03:52):
There was a moment that I realized climate change was a part of
my calling or what I needed to focus on.
Because when I started, climatechange coaching wasn't really a thing.
And when we started and launchedour website, which was the
climatechangecoaches.com which isvery unimaginative, we were just
flooded with coaches who saidthings like, this time last year,
(04:13):
I Googled it, there was nothing.
And then I Googled it and I found you.
So in a way, when I decided that Iwanted to do something about climate
change, I assumed immediately Iwould have to stop being a coach
because it didn't seem to exist.
And I was lucky that I knew people,some of whom are in our team who were
coaching people in sustainability.
And that was allowed, you know,if you ask people in coaching,
(04:36):
you know, is that allowed?
They say that's allowed, yes.
Because they're coaching sustainabilityleaders as leadership coaching.
I said but I'm not allowed to havethe same kinds of conversations with
people who aren't in sustainabilityor, the environment movement.
No, that's having an agenda.
You're not allowed to do that.
So this huge chasm we had to crossin helping people understand that,
(04:57):
that these two things lived together.
And I'd say for me personally, ittook me a good two years to feel.
The courage to change my website.
So it said climate change coachand, work out exactly what that was.
I mean, I, from 2016, 2018, I just fumbledaround having lots of conversations,
(05:18):
trying to piece different things together,drawing lots of maps of systems, trying
to work out where everything fitted,and still thinking I'm probably gonna
have to quit and become a solarpanel engineer or a climate scientist
or something that wasn't me at allbecause I couldn't see my place in it.
And it really makes me realizethat it's not that long ago
that, that that was very normal.
(05:41):
And now we have things in tostep outta the coaching industry.
We have, programs like Terra.Dothat are aiming to move a million
people into climate jobs in Europe.
So in a way, my starting point was readingthe Uninhabitable Earth and sitting on
a beach in Dorsett in the UK, which isa sort of coastal county, and feeling
(06:02):
homeless and feeling huge despair,feeling like I wanted to run and realizing
I couldn't, there was nowhere to runto, and said that was my starting point.
And then I don't like thosefeelings, so I have to do something.
I have to roll up my
sleeves and do something.
So yeah, and then it took me two years towork out how to marry that to coaching.
Jeremy Blanchard (06:20):
Yeah, it makes me curious, at some point in that
exploration around coaching, which youwere already in, and then climate, which
you were, waking up to in a really bigway, in like a full, wow, I need to
do something about this kind of way.
Was there a moment where youstarted to see a possibility
for how these two came together?
(06:40):
What did you see was possible tobring coaching and climate together?
Charly Cox (06:44):
I think there were multiple little moments.
There were lots of little eureka moments.
I started out by.
Learning
I began to listen and I had conversationswith people and I would always say,
tell me the problem you need fixing.
And most of them, they wouldgive me problems I couldn't
in a million years fix.
But occasionally they'd give me somethingthat sounded a bit like what I did.
And then I would also listen tolots of podcasts and interviews.
(07:07):
And I remember there was this momentwhere I stopped listening, like a person
and started listening like a coach.
And I suddenly heard.
Powerlessness anddisempowerment writ large.
But I also heard threat response when Ilistened to politicians and I thought, oh,
I've been listening to these all wrong.
I've been listening like a, punter.
I should be listening like a coach.
(07:27):
And actually there's ahuge emotional component.
So that was one of those kind of moments.
But I think the, the fundamentalone for us was that, I was invited
to give a speech at London's firstzero waste Christmas market, which
was this cold Saturday in a railwayarch with lots of people selling zero
waste products, ready for Christmas.
(07:50):
And I said, I have no ideawhat I would give a speech on,
you know, back then in 2018.
You know, what am I gonna say?
I've only just started this thing.
I don't even know what it is.
But I said, I've got this idea.
I think we could bring coaches toyour market and I think we could
coach members of the public for free.
I wanna prove that you can coachthis topic, that part of the
problem here is disempowerment.
(08:11):
And I want to see what happens if youoffer people a conversation in which they
can move from disempowered to empowered.
Not information about climatechange, but just this shift.
I want to know if it's possible,'cause people tell me it isn't.
And she had fortunately just trained as acoach by some fluke and she said, do it.
That sounds great.
So I rang a bunch of people, and I said,can you come to London on your own dime on
(08:35):
a cold Saturday, right before Christmas?
And they all said yes.
Some of them canceled paid jobs to come.
They all came down and we stood in thefreezing cold and it was really hard
getting shopper's attention and nobodyliked having to kinda grab people.
And, but then I saw, when Ilooked across the room, I saw
people hugging, the coaches I sawreal relief on people's faces.
(08:58):
' I, coached a group of three young womenwho, it was quite a lot to handle.
They, all of them had huge amounts ofdoubt and despair and scarcity going
on, and, and I just sort of got them tokind of almost coach each other in the
conversation and watch that change happen.
And it was just, it was just magic.
So even though we said we are neverdoing a market on a Saturday again, it
(09:20):
was freezing and it was really hard.
We said, we're never doing that again.
But we've proved the concept.
You can coach this topic with peoplewho are not involved in this topic.
We just have to work out how to findthe, the people that really need
it the most and give it to them.
Jeremy Blanchard (09:36):
Yeah.
Something that's occurring to meas you're saying that is I come
from social movement spaces, right?
I was politicized in college, gotinvolved in the climate movement and
Our theory of change was.
social movements are the means forchange that we're kind of, most have a
proven history, a proven track recordof creating massive social change.
(09:56):
And in my theory of change, there'sa lot of space for someone getting
politicized and like joining togetherwith community to take collective action.
But the on-ramp to that.
Is some kind of political momentwhere someone helps you see
that community organizing andcollective action is a thing.
(10:18):
What I appreciate about what you're sayingis I imagine you're taking people who
have a care in their heart around climatechange, who are obviously willing to have
this conversation and you're invitingthem into a conversation where you help
them, increase their sense of agency.
And as you said, empowerment.
It just feels like a different on rampinto how someone is now, engaged in
(10:40):
work and the particular work that theymight do after that could obviously
look very different, but that,That's such an important pivot point.
So, so cool.
Charly Cox (10:50):
That's really interesting.
I think our starting point was,there was actually research that
said, you know, the majority ofthe British public are concerned.
And so, we grabbed that.
We're like, okay, so it's notthe case that people don't care.
'cause people had loads of advice forus, some of which was unh unhelpful.
You know?
And then there were, there wereother pieces of advice, like,
you know, people don't care.
(11:10):
People don't really wanna change,you know, I don't wanna change.
Nobody wants to change.
Forget, don't talk to individuals.
It's not about individuals, it's aboutsystems and governments and corporations.
I still agree with that, but I seeindividuals as one corner of that
triangle, which is, you know, theway that Kimberly Nicholas sees
it, who wrote the foreward for ourbook, she's a climate scientist, and
she says, you know, there are thesethree, and we see individuals as the.
(11:32):
trend setters, you know, no oneindividual won't change everything, but
individuals grouping together as to yourpoint of people, people coming together
in communities have enormous power.
They just don't realize they do.
So I sort of don't, I don't buythat individuals don't do it either.
My start point is less agitatingfor change and more empowering
(11:55):
people to believe that they canbe actors in their own lives.
And I think that's probably why TheClimate Change Coaches is the way it is.
We fundamentally believe that everyonehas a stake in climate change, an
obvious point, but that everyone canmake, can affect change around it.
I really get upset when I see peoplemaking decisions from a place of fear.
(12:18):
I want people to make decisions from aplace of values, groundedness, logic,
whatever you want to call it, but notthese threatened, frightened, disempowered
places where we don't make good decisions.
And so that's probably our start point.
It's about connecting well to eachother, finding love, finding safety,
and changing from that place.
Jeremy Blanchard (12:40):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
So much I resonate in what you're sharing.
Just to share a few anecdotes on that.
One is I can so relate to the peoplewho came to you and said, we're Googling
climate coaching or climate changecoaching and we're not finding anything.
That has been my journey over thelast like 10, 11, 12 years of Googling
social justice coaching, socialchange coaching, social movement
(13:02):
coaching, and really finding almostnothing for a very, very long time.
And then eventually starting, a verybrief project called Coaching for
Social Change that was bringing coachingskills to social movement leaders
here in the US and I still Google itfrequently and the number of results
we're seeing is going up and up.
(13:22):
There's a few coaching schools thathave a social justice focus or,
especially in the us and there'sway, way, way more coaches out there.
I found like hundreds of coacheswho mentioned social change, social
justice, systems of oppression,collective liberation, those
kinds of things on their websites.
And I'm like, I was so heartenedthe day I started realizing just how
(13:44):
many there were, how many individualcoaches who already had this focus.
Charly Cox (13:47):
That's amazing.
Jeremy Blanchard (13:48):
What does climate change coaching have its sight set on?
Like what is it paying attention tothat might be different than other kinds
of coaching or mainstream coaching?
Charly Cox (14:00):
I think the difference between climate change coaching and.
more traditional types of coachingis that we have to see and believe in
the system as well as the individual.
I've trained as a systems coachand it's phenomenal training.
It's really powerful and Iwas still able to be outside
of the system I was coaching.
(14:21):
So a good for instance is I still coacha husband and wife team who are run a
business together and I coach them ontheir business and I'm coaching them as
a system, but I'm not in their businessor their marriage for that matter.
So I can be un-triggered, unattachedto whatever is going on, and I
can just stand as this beautiful,impartial advisor and help them.
(14:41):
when we are coaching peopleand they bring climate.
We may start to feel like we've got astake there or we've got a similar topic
running, you know, in our own heads.
So in, in traditional coaching, youmight say to me, I really want this
podcast to be a success and let's sayI have a podcast and I think, yeah.
And that's really important when it'snot about podcasts, but it's, I'm
(15:02):
worried my kids aren't gonna want tohave kids and I won't get grandchildren.
And you think, yeah, I've got that one.
And then they say, and thatmakes me feel really bereft.
I feel, empty.
And you think, yeah, I feel that way too.
And then you have to getto that lived experience.
So their relationship withthose feelings is different to my
relationship, to those feelings.
(15:23):
So that's the sort of practicalway we have to be able to
unattach ourselves from this.
But we also have to, in a reallybloody minded way, believe in
change and, and that's daft to saybecause change is happening all the
time, whether we like it or not.
But we have to believe in thesystem's ability to change positively.
(15:44):
And we have to believe in the personin front of us ability to change.
Jeremy Blanchard (15:49):
Yeah.
I'm curious about the beliefpart you mentioned there, right?
Like, oh, one of the biggest thingswe're doing, because this is such
a big topic, it is so easy to getresigned to feel at a distance from it.
I know for me, when I, realizedthat part of my life was about.
Working on climate
I was in college and I wasstudying something else, and I
(16:11):
took a class and every week of theclass was a different inequality.
So it's like racism,sexism, economic inequality.
And we ended on environmental inequalityand we only spent a week on climate.
part of what was so compelling to meabout why it needed to be addressed and
why I needed to devote myself to it wasbecause it was such a complex problem.
And I was like, oh my gosh, thisis so hard to understand and to see
(16:35):
causes and then we have 20 linksin the chain, or a hundred links in
the chain between that and effects,and our brains are not good at that.
And so, because of thatcomplexity, I was like.
Anyone who feels any inroad intocaring about this needs to be working
on it because it's gonna be so hardto get enough of us working on it.
And, you know, this was before theeffects of climate change were as
(16:58):
in our face as they are right now.
I guess where I want to go with thatis I'm curious about this belief
piece because what you're doing ishelping people increase their sense
of belief and autonomy, the sense thatthey can have some kind of an impact
on such a large scale complex issue.
What do you do when people don't believe?
What do you do when belief wanes?
Like That's, gonna come and go.
(17:19):
And for me,
sometimes I think about how belief isreally good, but also not that stable.
It's not the most reliable resourcethat we have in our work for change.
And I've needed to explore that inmyself of like, well, what are the
other things I can draw on thatare actually kind of more reliable?
So I'm curious how, how do youthink about that when belief.
It isn't there.
Or when it wanes.
Charly Cox (17:41):
I like that belief is unstable.
It's almost like sort of a nuclearisotope or something that we're holding.
You can swap out belief.
For me there's like disempowermentempowerment, disbelief, belief,
indifference, motivation, dissonance,resonance, which for the coaches
listening, they'll, you know that,that it is all the same fear and love.
(18:02):
It's all the same sort of feelingwith different words around it.
And all coaching is ever done ismoved people, I mean, this is very
reductive from one to the other.
So I suppose, in terms of what doyou do when people don't believe?
It depends.
'cause you name different states there.
So if someone's just, not believingin their own agency, like, oh, I'm
(18:23):
not the kind of person who, thenthere's an obvious piece of building
up their belief with some championing,with some, helping them work out,
what the initial steps might be.
If someone is, outright resistant,then it's almost certainly about
finding out what the values are thatare holding them in that resistance.
(18:43):
What do they feel isabout to be threatened?
Soon as they're aware of what the valueis, they return to feeling good and right.
Resistant.
People feel bad andwrong, they feel outcast.
And then what they do is theymay get other people around them.
So they've got a group of peoplewho are resist and then they
don't feel that way anymore.
So actually helping those people workout like what is this core value that's
(19:03):
sitting underneath and how can we releaseit, work out whether it really is a
threat, and if it is, then what can wedo to make sure it isn't in this change?
Because if you ask someone forwhat they want to do when they're
sort of demotivated, feeling stuck,feeling unsure, feeling frightened,
they will just give you low gradepoor-quality risk averse-ideas.
(19:25):
And so you might get them into action,but it'll be pretty rubbish action.
And as coaches, we know that whenwe build that resonance with people,
we just tap them and they say, I'mgonna do all this stuff, you know,
because they're feeling capable again.
Jeremy Blanchard (19:50):
Yeah, I mean, that's so true, right?
The one thing that I consistentlyhave my sight set on, especially in
leadership coaching, is this personis going to keep growing as a leader,
growing as a leader, growing as a leader.
It's like the transformationalagenda as some schools put it, right?
I have my transformational glasseson of who this person is becoming
. What this person is getting out of coaching is not solving the problem
(20:10):
that they brought to the session.
I'm pretty uninvested in whether theysolve the current problem I'm invested
in, who are you becoming as a leader?
So that 12 months from now, this problemdoesn't even phase you so much anymore.
This type of problem doesn't phase you.
Charly Cox (20:25):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeremy Blanchard (20:27):
I wanna go back to something you brought up earlier
when you said that people discouragedyou from climate coaching because,
oh, you're having an agenda.
Sure, you can do sustainabilitybecause it's just leadership coaching,
but, you can't do climate becausethat's a political issue, presumably.
And this is, we can't,we can't touch that.
That's having an agenda.
I was just talking about this inthe episode that, just released
(20:49):
episode three with Dara Silverman.
We were talking about this tensionbetween can we have an agenda for
clients and what does that mean?
You've talked about it a lot alreadyin this conversation, how you've
helped people move along the spectrumof action, from resistant to,
you know, willing to consider it.
I'm curious.
You write in the book about the differencebetween having an agenda and having
(21:11):
values, and so I'm curious to hear more.
How do you think about that distinction?
Charly Cox (21:17):
One of the things I found myself writing in the book
was, what climate change coachingcan help with and what it can't.
And one of the things in the can'tcolumn was making people care about
something they don't care about.
And then we wrote, but we're not surethere's any modality that can do that.
Because I think often when I getasked that question, it's actually
what people are actually askingis, how do we make people care?
(21:39):
You know, how do we makepeople care about this?
Well, you don't.
But actually I think the goodnews is most people do care.
They just feel reallydisempowered or a bit indifferent.
They've got other stuff going on.
Maybe they care more about,the state of social care.
Well, there is a direct link.
All of these things sit under the umbrellaof climate ultimately because they're
all happening on the planet we live in.
(22:00):
So, we can always make links with people.
So there's kind of a spectrum, I guess.
There's people who are kind of like,I'm interested, I'm probably gonna
start a conversation with you 'cause I'minterested, but I'm not doing anything.
And we have to hold those verydelicately and that's where we have
to ask lots of questions and try andfind out what people do care about and
(22:21):
maybe try and show them those links.
And then, you know, there's peoplewho are wanting to get on the pitch
but don't really know how and where.
And that's when we might startusing a bit bit more of a coaching
approach and like really sort oflike, okay, so what could you do?
And let's look at thedifferent things you've tried.
So the point is that you'renot really holding an agenda.
(22:42):
If you're not wielding it, it'sokay to just ask questions about
what do you think, what's happening?
But as professional coaches, Ithink there's a bit of a, is it
paradox that basically we tell ourclients they should have a purpose.
Purpose is very important.
You should have a purpose andyou should live by your values.
But somehow, as coaches, we're supposedto be these kind of neutral entities
(23:06):
that don't have either of those things.
And I actually don't think that's true.
I mean, it's obviously not true,but I don't think that's true for
why clients buy us because whetherwe try to squash that or not, it
does come out on our websites.
It does come out in oursample sessions with people.
And that's partly why they like us.
They say, this is someone withintegrity, or this is someone
(23:28):
who, cares about honesty.
You know, so people can see ourvalues in everything we are doing.
And trying to pretend we don'thave them is just impossible.
So I really make a stand for coachesliving by their sense of purpose and if
their purpose tells them that they want tobe stewards to the planet, then why can't
they bring that into coaching somehow?
And then the question then ishow you bring it into coaching.
(23:50):
And there's lots of different ways, andsometimes you don't, sometimes it's just
not appropriate, it doesn't come up them.
Jeremy Blanchard (23:56):
So I'm hearing a couple things in there.
One, which I talked about with Daraas well, is who are our clients?
Right.
So the most base permission thata coach can give themselves is,
I'm putting this on my website,that these are my values, right?
That I don't have to subscribe to.
What I think is a very dominant cultureparadigm of, okay, you're a professional.
You're like, not just coaching,but professionals in general.
(24:18):
Professionalism in white supremacyculture we keep politics
out of this and dah, dah, dah.
dah, dah.
So that's a very base permission thata coach can give themselves is cool,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna name my values,I'm gonna name what I care about.
And that allows you to, invite inclients who might be aligned with you.
And then there's automaticallymore space to have certain
kinds of conversations, right?
People know you're a climatechange coach, they're coming to
(24:39):
you, they're already interestedin that pretty explicitly, right?
But then I'm hearing this otherlevel where there's a way that
you can also bring it in that is,just reminding people that they
exist inside these systems, right?
We haven't considered this, right?
Most coaching might stop at the individuallevel of, cool, you've got a plan for you
that considers you and maybe your project.
(25:01):
And what I hear the invitationfrom you is, you can say, have we
thought about your connection tothe environment, your connection to
climate and our collective wellbeing.
Is there some way that you want toconsider that as a gentle invitation,
just so it doesn't get missed?
Charly Cox (25:17):
There's a really obvious one, which is I remember working with someone
on their five year plan and I said like,should we think about what's gonna be
happening economically, politically, andenvironmentally in the next five years?
Yeah, we should, but then actuallywith that exact same person who
isn't climate related, theypredate my interest in climate.
We've been working togetherfor about nine years.
(25:38):
I've never explicitly mentionedclimate to them except for that moment.
But the funny thing is that sinceI've become a climate change coach,
that person has started to adoptmore sustainability measures at work
and will come back and report to me.
And I think it's just the proximityto someone else who has badged up.
So, even though I've never said,you know, you really should be doing
(26:00):
something about club, I've never donethat, actually, just my kind of subtle
influence or my soft influence onher, because I do it and she likes me
and therefore she wants to do it too.
There's so many different ways ofinfluencing people, and I've met so many,
environmentalists who've said to me,I've done all these things in my life,
(26:20):
and I never talked about them becauseI didn't wanna shame other people.
So I, I stopped flying 10 yearsago, or one person said I only
had one child because of climate.
I never told anyone.
And that was a massive mistake.
So, even if coaches don't want to bringit into their coaching practices, just
living their values in the world andtelling people why is really powerful
(26:43):
as an a in a movement of change.
Jeremy Blanchard (26:45):
Yeah.
One of the things that makesme think about is what are we
actually talking about when wesay having an agenda for a client?
And there is, I'm getting so much outof your distinction between having an
agenda and what that actually means andhaving values that you can invite in.
Having an agenda, in my understandingof it is, alright, you're bringing
(27:06):
up your romantic relationshipand I have an evaluation, an
assessment of that, that you reallyneed to leave this relationship.
This is really not good for you.
And then all of my coaching is shapedaround my belief that this, we really
gotta get you out of this, right?
Because now it stopped being a partnershipand it really did become my agenda.
(27:27):
It's so valuable to have differentlanguage for it, of saying, I do as
a coach have values and you can counton me to bring them into our session,
and I'm gonna bring them in in a waythat is still in partnership, because
that's what we're doing, is we arepartnering together around this.
That's just so valuable.
So thank you for that distinction.
I find that very helpful.
(27:48):
Yeah.
Charly Cox (27:49):
Yeah, I would definitely say that.
So there's this piece of agendawhich is, I know best for this
client as you articulated.
There's a smaller agenda, which isin this tiny bit of this topic, I've
got an idea and you should totallydo it 'cause my idea is brilliant.
And then there's like a bigger agenda,which in a way we were encouraged to have
(28:09):
as coaches, which is who you could become.
And that is, it should be co-designed.
You know, if you said to me.
I want to be one of, America's topfive podcasters, then I should want
that for you as much as you want it foryou, because I'm your coach and I wanna
partner with you in that and get you that
(28:31):
If that's what I want for you, but youdon't, don't care about that at all.
That's not why you're doingthis, then that's problematic.
So there's this kind ofbig piece agenda as well.
But I think that gets collapsed withus having our own purpose and we are
absolutely allowed to have, why are we notallowed to have a purpose as coaches as a
little foot stamping on the ground there?
(28:52):
Like, I want a purpose too, you know?
Jeremy Blanchard (28:54):
Yeah, I love this conversation.
So helpful.
I wish I got to listen to our conversationwhen I was, brand new to coaching.
I'm sure you do too.
you know, these are like themessages that our former selves,
wish we had and that we'veearned, through hard work.
So I really appreciate that.
I am curious to hear a little bitabout your own coaching growth areas or
(29:16):
the areas where you're experimenting.
Is there anywhere at this levelof coaching where you're trying
something out or a question inyour coaching approach that you're
moving with or curious about that?
Charly Cox (29:29):
I think that the bigger thing I've brought in
is probably Buddhism actually.
And that's influenced by my husband,who used to be a Buddhist monk,
for about seven years in Thailand.
And, and also influenced by, peoplelike Joanna Macy, people like Margaret
Wheatley, who you've got coming on.
And their approach.
And, and I think, again, in traditionalcoaching, I didn't really see the
(29:53):
need for this stuff, you know, Icould sort of see the need, but,
well, it's mindfulness, isn't it?
It's helping people calm down,helping people feel relaxed.
It's not that at all.
It's how we relate, you know, andrealizing that and also doing a bit
of Acceptance and Commitment Therapytraining and realizing it's, everything's
in this space between how we relate toour thoughts because our thoughts are not
(30:15):
us shock, you know, that was a new one.
How we relate to the climatecrisis, how we relate to other
people, how we relate to systems.
Often it's that kind of helpingthem to move towards acceptance.
Except not.
As David Loy, the, the, authorEco-Dharma, who I interviewed for
our book, he said, acceptance isn'tabout giving up and saying, well,
(30:38):
that's that then It's the way it is.
Acceptance is aboutresponding appropriately.
It's about saying, sothis is what's happened.
And rather than hang on to what shouldhave happened instead or what should
happen in the future, I'm gonna say, asthey said on the West Wing, what's next?
You know, what's next?
What's next?
You know, I'm going to respondappropriately to what's right here.
(31:01):
And actually, if you think aboutit, so often we're hanging on tight
to, the government shouldn't havepushed, shouldn't have, promulgated
that law, that company shouldn'thave been allowed to do that thing.
And it hurts so much.
But we are suffering not the companywhen we have those painful thoughts.
And so we can acknowledge them,we can say, I'm really hurting,
I'm gonna just put them down andI'm gonna say like, what's next?
(31:25):
So that's coming into my coachingmore and more I would say.
I, I
Jeremy Blanchard (31:28):
Yeah, I love that.
I feel like it's, some of the particularlypotent coaching sessions I can remember
are ones where the takeaway from thecoaching session is, making space to
be with what is actually happening now.
Not what you thought should be happeningor what used to be happening, and to
just arrive fully in this is what's so.
(31:50):
This is what, so can I, can Irelate to what, so, and yeah.
Then what's next?
Charly Cox (31:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Just noticing that in the, hereright now, there is no anxiety,
there's nothing that needs to bedone in the next minute, there might.
In the last minute.
There might have been, but hereright now, we can just connect
to now and it's so soothing.
Again, this was stuff that was sort ofover there when I trained in coaching.
(32:18):
This was sort of the, the woowoo endthat you couldn't do in boardrooms.
Well, I can tell you I'vedone it in boardrooms.
It just, it just about the languageyou use to make it acceptable.
But everybody gets this stuff and, it'sreally powerful to help people relate
better to each other even, but alsoparticularly to their own feelings.
Jeremy Blanchard (32:37):
I, love that.
Thank you.
As we draw towards a close, one ofthe questions I, ask all my guests
is, where you're getting yoursources of nourishment right now?
Now that you might wanna recommendcould be books, it could be someone
you're following, it could be aplace of nature, a practice you do.
Wondering what you wanna sharewith folks, and along those lines.
Charly Cox (32:57):
The main thing I do that I have missed so terribly
in the last five months is I gopaddle boarding and I go canoeing.
And it's just been too rough.
The river's been too high,it's been too wet and too cold.
And we are just weeks away from nowbeing able to get back out on the water.
My family and I in our big Canadiancanoe, or me on my paddleboard and
(33:19):
I, I've got a ruck sack that I boughtfrom a cheap outdoor shop for like $20.
That's big enough for my paddleboard.
And I shove everything in therucksack and I strap it on and I go
for mini adventures on my doorstep.
So I get a bus to somewhere that'ssort of roughly near and water, and
I walk to the water and sling thepaddleboard in and I go down the river,
(33:41):
get out and get another bus home.
And just the ingenuity of findingthose bus routes, which in the UK
that buses are a bit of a disaster.
It's just so rewarding.
You feel like you've cheated the system'cause you've had this adventure,
but yet you've been just down theroad from your house and often you
spend an hour, two, three hourspaddling down the river to then whip
(34:03):
past it in 20 minutes on the bus.
And it gives you a totally differentrelationship to your environment and
to the countryside and the locality.
And I really love that.
And I often, Jeremy, the, theworkaholic in me says, take a notebook
and pen and I don't write anything.
I take it, but I don't write anything.
so that's the big thingthat I've started doing.
(34:23):
And, I never thought I would bean outdoorsy person, but having
children has made that feel urgent.
And so we tried to find thething we loved and we, the water
was the, the thing we loved.
And we can't wait to get back on it.
Jeremy Blanchard (34:36):
Oh, I love that.
I love that, relationship tonature in the ways that you
find your connection outdoors
How can folks stay connectedwith you if they want to?
Obviously there's your book Climate ChangeCoaching, that the link to that will be
in the show notes, but what are otherways that folks can connect with you?
Charly Cox (34:51):
Please connect with me on LinkedIn and feel free to drop me a
message I love having, really interestingconversations with people, and I'm
often chatting there with people.
Look out for our website, whichis climatechangecoaches.com.
There's lots of interestingresources on there.
And also, look at our courses.
We have a course for professional coaches,the Climate Change Coaching Mastery course
(35:13):
that starts, on the 12th of March, andthen it runs as a fast track in November.
And so it's every March, everyNovember we run that course.
So that one is, and it's gotlike 28 ICF cus attached to it.
So if you're looking to re-accreditedyour credential and realizing
as I often do the, you don'thave enough, cus we can give you
almost all of them on that course.
And then the other thing, if you arenot a coach, but you are working in
(35:35):
social change, we have a a six weekprogram called the Green Transition
Coach Course, which is so fun.
And it's, two hours a week for six weeks.
And in that time we'll teach you howto change your, your conversations
completely around climate change.
So those, those two things wouldbe the things I'd point bill to, but
I'd also just say, just get in touch.
We love talking to coachesand to change agents.
(35:56):
That's where we get ourhope and positivity from.
So don't be a stranger.
Jeremy Blanchard (36:00):
Hmm.
Thanks.
Is there anything else that wedidn't cover today that feels like
important that you want to, touchon or share before we wrap up?
Charly Cox (36:08):
I think it's just that if you've come away from this conversation
thinking that was okay, but I, Idon't think I can do, I still don't
feel like I can step into this.
Then there's one otherthing that coaches can do.
Well, everyone can do actually, but thecoaches are even trained to do, but anyone
can do this, which is to be somethingdifferent in relation to this topic.
So many, conversations aboutclimate involve shame and blame.
(36:31):
So many conversations online arepolarizing and angry, and we are trained
to be non-judgmental, and compassionate.
We are trained to be able to be skillfulwith conflict, to have safe challenge,
to issue challenge in a way that's safe.
And let's not forget that when webecome go back to being citizens,
we take our coach hat off.
(36:51):
Let's just remember that.
And so even if you don't want tobe taking climate action or having
these avert conversations or trainingto be a climate change coach in
your everyday conversations, be theperson that says, oh, so you fly.
Okay.
You know, that's fine, but is thereanything else you think you could do
rather than the person that says, Ican't believe you're still flying.
(37:14):
You know.
Just be something differentbecause we need to make this
debate feel safer to engage with.
And so you can play a big role in doingthat, even if it's to say, yeah, I don't
really know what to do about it either.
I'm still learning too.
Do you want to go tryand find it out together?
That's another great way of helpingpeople into this space and we are
(37:37):
trained to be that way as coaches,so let's, let's take that out there
into the world, even if we are notovertly being climate change coaches.
Jeremy Blanchard (37:45):
Hmm.
Yeah.
I just appreciate theincredible dedication that
you have to empowering people.
That that's the note that you want toclose on, is we are all capable of making
this space of compassionate empowerment.
For folks.
I see that in everything we talked abouttoday and in how you show up in your work.
So thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing and yeah, so
(38:07):
grateful for this conversation.
Charly Cox (38:09):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
It's a real pleasure.
Thanks for inviting me on.
. Jeremy Blanchard: Thank you so much for listening to this
conversation with Charly Cox.
You can check out the show notes for linksto the resources that Charlie mentioned
and other ways to connect with her.
Episode seven comes out in two weeks withmy dear friend, Jess Serrante, who you
(38:31):
may remember from episode one this time.
She and I are going to be discussing hernew podcast, which is about to come out
with eco-spiritual teacher, Joanna Macy.
We're going to discuss her bigtakeaways, both from her conversations
with Joanna and her lessons learnedfrom making this project to reality.
And what kind of coachinglearnings we can take from that?
(38:53):
So I'm going to play a part ofthe trailer right now for you.
Jess Serrante (38:57):
All right, our recorders are on for the first time.
Joanna Macy (39:02):
We're in a situation that humanity's never been in before.
You know?
There've been wars,plagues, huge migrations.
But this concerns every human being.
One on Earth, and this is not somethingwe know how to even begin to think about.
Jess Serrante (39:28):
I'm Jess Serrante, host of Sounds True's newest
podcast, We Are the Great Turning.
In this 10 part series, I'm going tobring you into the home of my beloved
friend and teacher, Joanna Macy.
Joanna is 95 years old, and she'srevered in peace, justice, and
ecology movements around the world.
(39:50):
I'm an activist myself, and Joannahas taught me a lot about how
to live with my heart intact inthese times of global crisis.
Joanna Macy (39:58):
I want to reach and take hold.
Of that life wire ofreality, I wanna be here.
If I, I can't avoid climate change,then I wanna be here with all my
attention, with all my trust in life.
Jess Serrante (40:17):
In these episodes, I wanna invite you into a deeper sense
of your belonging and love for ourworld into connection with the great
possibilities that still exist for us.
And into action.
Joanna Macy (40:33):
We Are The Great Turning comes out April 22nd, Earth Day.
And you can listen atwearethegreatturning.
com or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jeremy Blanchard (40:44):
I am so excited for you all to have the chance to listen to these
episodes that Jess and Joanna have beenworking on for the last year and a half.
And really excited to share theconversation that I got have with
Jess coming out in a couple of weeks.
So make sure you subscribe in yourpodcast app to get notifications whenever
a new episode comes out of this show.
Really big, thanks to Kristin andChelsea who helped review this episode.
(41:08):
And thanks to wild choir as always forthe theme music for the show, you're
currently listening to their song.
Remember me, which will play us out.
All right.
See you next time.
Charly Cox (42:12):
Awesome.
Well, I mean, when we wrote the book,we realized we were, we were writing
two books and then we wrote one.
You know, I would used to write,if you're a coach, do this.
If you're not a coach, do this.
And then I realized I waswriting the same thing and I'd
be like, actually, just do this.
Because they're just human skills.
And so like, you know, yes there'ssome, there's some sort of witchcraft
and coach coaching that we can teachyou, but actually just like listening
(42:34):
really well, like everyone can do that,
Jeremy Blanchard (42:36):
Totally, totally.
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