Coaching in Times of Collapse (w/ Margaret Wheatley)

Episode Transcript
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Margaret Wheatley (00:00):
It is extremely painful and difficult to take in what's happening.

(00:07):
It takes enormous courage andenormous compassion to face reality.
And the compassion partof it is, I want to stay.
I want to be of service.
I want my little contributionto make a difference.
Maybe only in the lives of mycolleagues, family and community,

(00:28):
but that's enough actually.

Jeremy Blanchard (00:32):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast, a show about how
we can use the power of coaching andpersonal transformation to help create
the world we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard.
And today's episode is with author andsystems thinker, Margaret Wheatley.
For more than four decades, shehas been supporting leaders to

(00:53):
learn how to show up fully in thechaotic times that we're living in.
And find their meaningfulway of being of service.
And I'll be honest with you.
I find Margaret's work both reallyinspiring and deeply confronting.
There's a part of me that reallyappreciates her invitation to

(01:14):
look directly at the pattern ofsocietal collapse that we're in.
And that feels really relievedthat someone is actually
telling the truth about it andwilling to talk about it openly.
Without any kind of sugarcoating.
And another part of me really wondersif we know enough to be able to predict
how the game's going to turn outand like really call it in that way.

(01:39):
So I wrestled a lot with this tension.
As I was reading her book,Who Do We Choose To Be while
preparing for this conversation?
And my hope is that you'll get to goon a similar journey of inquiry and
reflection as you listen to this episode.
So in this conversation, we talkabout how we can face the reality of
collapse with clear eyes and withoutturning away or numbing ourselves.

(02:02):
We talk about what it means to redefinemeaningful work and a meaningful life
in this context of societal collapse.
And we discuss how coaches andleaders can move beyond individualism
and start to embrace a morecommunity centered way of being.
And dear listener, if you're listeningto this episode and something resonates

(02:23):
with you, I invite you to take a momentto share the episode with someone else
who might also get something out of it.
All right.
Let's dive in.
Margaret, welcome to the show.
So glad to have you here.

I'm very glad we have time to talk about important things.

I've heard your name for a long time and the work that you've
been doing in leadership and coaching.
And, as I was getting this podcaststarted, about six months ago,
I tried to find all the podcastsI could at this intersection of
personal transformation and systemictransformation, individual and collective.
And I found your interview on thecoaches rising podcast a few years back.

(03:01):
And one of the things you said on thatshow was, something you say often, but
you included the word coaches in it.
You said, we need leaders andcoaches who can help us embody
the best qualities of being human,compassion, kindness, generosity.
And you were one of the first people I'dheard include coaches in a declaration
about what's needed in this moment.

(03:22):
And I thought, yes, it.
And that became a real seed for,what this podcast has become.
So that's one of the themes that Ihope we can, circle around is how does
this apply specifically to coaches?

Yeah.

I just finished reading your book, Who Do We Choose to Be?
And I know you just came out withanother book, Restoring Sanity, which
is like maybe a companion to that.
One of the things I deeply appreciateabout you and your work that feels
very resonant and also sometimesconfronting for me is your dedication
to seeing the world with clear eyesand looking at reality with clear

(03:55):
eyes, so maybe we can start thereof what do you see in this moment?
And what do you hope others arestart to see with clear eyes?
That's a big question

Well I have been a student of civilizations
since my freshman year in college.
I've been a student ofleadership since 1966.
I've been a student of living systemsand how life organizes and behaves itself
since the publication of my first bigbook, "Leadership in the New Science".

(04:30):
So I have several different lensesby which to see what's going on.
And I have not been afraid to facereality, which I want to just flag.
We need to talk about this becausethe evidence of where we are in
the history of civilizations in thepattern of collapse is so clear cut.

(04:53):
It's irrefutable.
The science of where we are withenvironment and climate changes is
so clear and how we behave as humanbeings when we're in fear, when, we
have no capacity to be conscious, tobe thoughtful, to be compassionate.

(05:16):
That is so clear.
You put those three things together.
And this is why I write books called,"Who Do We Choose To Be", because we need
to face reality so we can choose ourmeaningful work so we can choose what
is a valid contribution at this time.

(05:36):
It is extremely painful and difficultto take in what's happening.
We're in the last stages, welldocumented throughout history.
We're in the last stages of collapsein the United States and quickly,
spreading out to Europe and the world.

(05:58):
We're in the last stages.
Now that's not a, casual statement,but I've documented this in "Who Do We
Choose To Be", but I want to go withthe title for a moment because we still
want to do meaningful work, right?
And as coaches or consultants,we still have access to leaders.

(06:19):
Leadership has never been moredifficult, never been this hard
because leaders are dealing withunending escalating uncertainty and
they don't know what to do generally.
I'm not sure I knowwhat to do, by the way.
But in Restoring Sanity, I gavepractices that bring people together

(06:42):
in robust community and in highlyparticipative structures that create
meaningful work and good solutions.
Within a very finite spacethat I'm calling "Islands of
Sanity" generally for leaders.
And I'd like all of you who arecoaches or consultants to think about

(07:03):
what you're seeing, because whatI'm seeing is leaders confront this
terrible escalating uncertainty.
They look for certainty with staff,with lower down in the organization.
They're pushing more fortimelines, for plans, for outcome

(07:24):
measures that are impossible.
So what do people do?
They leave, they withdraw, theyrefuse to participate because
they're working in a false reality.
I want us all to face realitybecause only then can we define what
is meaningful work at this time.

(07:45):
It's not five year strategic plans.
It's not thinking we're going toshift the these global dynamics
of greed and power and aggression.
This is a quote from PresidentTheodore Roosevelt: "what can we
do where we are with what we have?"
And that's what I want us all to focus on.

(08:05):
It takes enormous courage andenormous compassion to face reality.
And the compassion partof it is, I want to stay.
I want to be of service.
I want my little contributionto make a difference.
Maybe only in the lives of mycolleagues, family and community,

(08:27):
but that's enough actually.
So it's a time of profound need forus to re reconfigure or redevelop
what is a meaningful work life for us.

Yeah, what I appreciate about that is I know I
go through phases of being willing tolook at reality with clear eyes since
I got involved as a climate activistin college many, many years ago.
And then I'll, be willing to look atit and then I'll say that was enough.
That was as much as Icould take right now.
And I need to sort of just coast withmy current level of understanding

(09:04):
and be informed with that.
And so reading your book wasanother moment of like, Oh man,
this is really uncomfortable.
This is very hard and I feelthe commitment in myself.
And I think many peoplecan relate to this.
There's a part of me thatreally wants to look at the
truth and not shy away from it.
And there's another part of methat's like, Is it that bad?

(09:25):
I really don't want it to be that bad.
Can we just like make ita little less bad, please?

I love your description.
It's perfect.
I still have the same responses.

Yeah, I was gonna ask.
Do you struggle with this?
How is this for you?

I don't struggle with it nearly as much because I've been in
this prophesying role now since 2012when I published "So Far From Home."
But I know I deal with it in those thatI train as Warriors for the Human Spirit.
It's a constant conversationof how much more can we hold?

(10:03):
Well, the human heart is, asone meditation teacher put
it, as wide as the world.
And the real need for us in tryingto face reality is, first of
all, you take it in bits becauseit's so atrociously overwhelming.

(10:24):
At this point, I have periods whenI'm just allowing myself to be
in despair because I trust myselfenough to know I won't stay there.
And the way I trust myself isbecause I have practices for
connecting compassionately, openingmy heart to those who are suffering.

(10:45):
That's a core need.
We have to, you know, we can't handle it.
Well, what about the peoplein Gaza or Ukraine or Congo or
Sudan who have to handle it?
Let's just say that this is ourwork to be able to be with those
who are suffering so terribly.

(11:08):
And to be with those who are sufferingalso from climate, natural disasters.
These are on the increase.
It's all part of the cyclethat we're engaged in now.
And I think we have to get overourselves because as long as we're
focused on, well, I can't handlethis, we're withdrawing ourselves.

(11:30):
It's a very privileged positionto say, well I can't handle this.
So I'm just going to tune out.
You do have to be very carefulof your sources of information.
And how much you cantake in at any one time.
I know when looking at photographs, whichI do quite deliberately, of people who

(11:53):
are suffering, I know when I've doneenough for the moment, but just for the
moment, but you have to want to be ofservice rather than self protection.
That's the gate for all of us.
In your work, where you have accessto coaching leaders or supporting

(12:15):
organizations and people in them,you have to make a decision.
Not can I bear it, butdo I want to stay here?
Do I want to be of serviceas painful as this world is?
And then there are practices andpaths that allow us to stay, and then

(12:36):
withdraw when we absolutely need it.
But this is where I just come upagainst, are we in self protection or
are we offering ourselves in service?
It's not easy, but you have to have this,it's almost like an identity imperative.
I still want to help.
I still want to, be a good person.

(12:59):
I don't want to withdraw and hide andjust become fearful and overwhelmed.
So this is a moment of greatpersonal choice for all of us.

Yeah.
One of the things that's occurringto me as you're saying it right now
is I can see in myself the way thatI have made a bargain at times, that
your work helps me question deeply,which and the bargain goes like this
if I can see that the outcome thatI want the thriving, regenerative,

(13:33):
transformed, spiritually awake world,you know, the like, the utopia.
If I can see that the utopia is available,that's how I can confront the reality.

So you are a victim, you're addicted to hopium.

Yeah.

And hopium is taking hope to the extreme.
Hope for outcomes that could onlybe achieved if we deny the laws of
science, physics, chemistry, biology.
If we're into deep denial or if wehope for technological solutions.

(14:10):
So these techno optimistsare rampant these days, ever
more so as things get worse.
So hopium is an addiction and itblinds us to seeing opportunities
for contribution and service.
It simply blinds us.
Because we need the world to work wellin order for us to volunteer our energy,

(14:35):
our passion, our generosity of spirit.
Well, the world isn't going to work well.
Do you still want to be someone whoknows how to offer their generosity
and compassion and creativity?
I think there are many of us, anincreasing number of us, who really
want to figure out a role for ourselves.

(14:56):
But we can't identify that role if we'relocked in this grip of hopium, I've
written tremendous amounts about hope.
And it's companion fear.
When we don't get what we hoped for, wemove into fear, depression, withdrawal.

(15:17):
It's just an ancient cycle definedin all Asian spiritual traditions.
Hope and fear are differentsides of the same coin.
But when we take off the blindersof hope, we see what's needed here.
And am I the one tocontribute to this need?
Then the work just blossoms.

(15:38):
There's so much we could do.
So Václav Havel of the Czech Republic, whowas a great playwright and poet before he
became a political activist and presidentof the new state of Czechoslovakia, he
said that "Hope is not the convictionthat something will turn out well, it's

(15:58):
the certainty that something is worthdoing no matter how it turns out."
And that's where we need to place ourhope is the certainty that I'm doing the
work that feels like right work to me.
And It's defined by my asking thequestion, what's needed here and

(16:22):
then assessing, do I have the skillsto contribute or should I just let
that one go and pray that someoneelse comes in to do that work?

The thing I'm really appreciating then is that
if we, take off that conditionof I need to get the outcome

Yes.
Good luck with that, by the way.

right,

luck.

if I take off that condition to my action, or, that,
other way I'm thinking of it reallyis as a bargain, it's an internal
sort of putting on of blindersso I can keep myself in the game.

Jeremy, I want to acknowledge we were raised that way.

Yeah, totally.

We knew to make plans, to set objectives, to have a
well defined purpose, to know what ourvalues were, and then the world would
satisfy our needs by giving us workthat we had defined as meaningful.
Now I'm just reversing it.
Put yourself into the world, seewhat the world needs from you.

(17:23):
But we all had this.
I used to teach this stuff, setgoals, define your purpose, et cetera.
This is not how you deal with thisworld in such egregious pain and such
exponentially increasing uncertainty.
We have to be present and we have to learnto see more clearly what's needed from me.

(17:47):
Not what I want, butwhat's needed from me.

Yeah.
And so I feel the liberation thatcomes from, well, I'm not going
to make that bargain anymore.
It's at first there's a huge grief, right?
At first it's Oh, I'm reallylooking at it with clear eyes.
And then I can sense the liberationof, Oh, I'm actually freed from
this conditional participation.
I'm actually going to show upregardless as you're talking about.

So you're discovering that it's not only
the feeling of liberation, whichis essential, but you then have
experiences of really contributing.
So it may be quite modest.
It usually is much more reduced.
It's a much smaller level of scale.
But, It's very meaningful work whenyou can bring people together in

(18:36):
ways that we've forgotten how tobe together, when you can create
possibilities for people, when youcan just help them in talking to you.
I'm thinking now the coaching environmentthat they recognize in you, Oh, you're
peaceful or you're centered, or youactually have an inner life here.

(18:58):
Now we can get to thisoverarching theme here.
You are someone I like being with.
I mean, I've been training Warriors forthe Human Spirit, spiritual, peaceful
warriors for, nine years now and becausethey have trained to have a stable mind,
they don't get triggered so easily.

(19:19):
They don't get upset so easily.
They know how to deal with theirdespair and moments of how could
this be happening so terrible?
And we have a strong community of support.
We're not trying to change the world.
We're trying to work within the domainsof where we are with who we're with and
as we develop these skills we becomepresent and we're present with insight

(19:46):
and we're present with compassion andpeople we're finding now this is several
hundreds people people love being aroundus why wouldn't they you know it's so
hard to find someone who doesn't suddenlyget triggered or suddenly get aggressive
or, just go off on you or just want totell you their terrible victim story.

(20:11):
This is so common.
And we know how to just be presentas a good listener, but it's
actually what we're finding, andthis is documented by other people.
teachers, that people are magnetizedto places that's people that feel
open, available, peaceful, present,so for me, what I want from all of

(20:38):
us is to learn how to develop thoseskills of a stable mind and open
perception, curiosity, which includesgood listening, but doesn't stop there.
Because I know that if I'm sitting infront of someone, what they're getting
from me is so far beyond the words.

(20:59):
It's my ability to be present for them.
We were so missing this.
But you have to learn these skills.

Yeah.
And those are, in my experience,skills that coaches have in abundance.
A lot of training in how do I be present?
How do I sit with suffering?
How do I help invite someone intodiscovering their contribution?
And as you're saying, the contributionthe world needs from them?

I want to add one factor to that because
I was a consultant for decades,
We have to learn how to not wantto be liked in those relationships.
This is a level of authenticitythat actually gives us power.
One of my Buddhist teachers said,authenticity creates a field of power.

(21:48):
It creates a field presence and alsosafety for people to step into it.
But if I know this first hand formany, many years, always in the back
of my awareness Are they liking this?
How are they judging me?
What are they thinking of me?
Are they going to keep hiring me?

(22:08):
I mean, we know this, right?
And so there's a level of confidencethat we need to develop in ourselves
as well, that I know who I'm choosingto be, and I know I'm trying to embody
it in this conversation right now.
Can I silence those voices, like whenthe person sitting in front of me,

(22:29):
whether it's on Zoom or in person,starts to scowl or look disturbed?
Do I change what I'm saying?
Or, do I have enough confidence thatmaybe I'll just change the way I'm saying
it, but I'm still holding my presence?

I'm curious for coaches and really anyone who's committed to
that because we need a lot of people.
We need more than just trainedcoaches to be embodying that presence.
What are some of the ways that you helppeople develop that capacity to stay
present even when they're receiving,

at first I want to say it takes time, especially in
a profession where being liked andrespected is core to getting you
in, the door and to getting you work.
But we teach and this is now I'mdescribing the training we offer
for Warriors for the Human Spirit.
You can read all about it, how wedo it, what we're offering right

(23:26):
now on my website, margaretwheatley.
com, but we need to develop a stable mind.
We do that only through meditation.
There's no substitute for meditationin terms of grounding ourselves, but
also learning to watch our thoughts.
You know, grounding is easy, butlearning to watch my thoughts so that

(23:49):
when I, when suddenly get triggered, Inotice it sooner rather than reacting.
Shifting from reactivity toresponsiveness is the core of most
spiritual teachings these days.
And you can't do that if you don'tknow how to watch how your mind works.
And that you do through meditation,not guided meditation, but just

(24:13):
good sitting practice where you'rewatching thoughts as they come.
And if you don't attach to them,they leave of their own volition.
But of course we get attachedto them and then we lose our
way and then we come back.
To watching.
So we spend a lot of time on meditation.
We spend a lot of time on mind bodyawareness, which includes in our

(24:37):
trainings, Qigong, but there aremany ways to develop awareness.
So much good somatic workbeing done these days.
Where am I feeling this?
What just happened?
Can I just release it?
very valuable work being done.
And then we teach direct perception.
How do we see more?

(24:58):
How do we take in information that'sall around us, but that has been
clouded or we're blinded by our filters.
So this gets into thearea of judgment, right?
Biases, all of that.
This is very hard work.
I've been working on this for 40 years.
I still catch myself when I'm about tomeet anyone or read anything is, okay,

(25:26):
what am I assuming about this person?
I have no evidence, but myjudgment is right there.
But the quicker you notice thesethings, the more open and available
you are past your judgment.
So we teach a lot of directperception exercises.
We also know why we are training tobe warriors for the human spirit,

(25:49):
why we want to stay and serve.
We do not deny where we are.
The pattern of collapse is so clearto us, and we know that our work
is not to change the world, whichcannot be changed any longer, and
you know this as a climate activist.

(26:10):
We can't stop what's happening now asthe planet just enacts its own laws.
We cannot reverse what we set in motiondecades ago, and we can't stop what's
happening, the dynamics of fear,which is deliberately used by those
in power now that drives us into ourself protection, human animal behavior.

(26:38):
We can't use any of the greatcapacities of being human, much
less know that we are sacred.
We have human spirits.
We can't do that when we'reback in the reptilian brain.
It's just impossible.
And, so being awake in the world,and asking what's needed, seeing

(27:02):
more of what's because we'veremoves the perceptual clouds.
This is the essence of training tobe a warrior for the human spirit.
And if you're finding any problems withthe word warrior, just get over it.
These are spiritual grounded warriors,nonviolent warriors of peace, whatever.

(27:27):
I mean, it's a long, long tradition.
And, there was no other word that,actually grounded me and this
training, warriors are alwaysfew in number and completely
dedicated to serving, protecting.
And there's a choice of weaponsand we choose the weapons

(27:48):
of compassion and insight.
And that's a long spiritual tradition.

Yeah, You're, referencing the Shambhala warrior prophecy
that Joanna Macy, among others havehelped, make popular in our culture,
at least, can you share a little bitabout that context for folks listening?

The Shambhala warrior prohecy became Joanna Macey's
bedrock work, because it was givento her by her Tibetan teacher and
she was told to offer this to us.
The prophecy reads as Joanna's teachergave it to her: there comes a time

(28:27):
when all of life on earth is in danger.
Great nations threaten one anotherwith weapons of mass destruction, and
life hangs by the frailest of threads.
At that time, the Shambhala warriorscome forth armed with only two

(28:48):
weapons, and that was the word herteacher used, compassion and insight,
and you must have them in balance.
We're devastated by having too muchfeeling, too much compassion these days.

(29:14):
That's what makes us turn off the news.
That is what makes us feel Ican't hold this any longer.
It needs to be linked,combined with discernment.
And I have introduced that thediscernment can be most easily
found if you ask what's needed here?
And you look with clear eyes, youlook with enhanced perception past

(29:40):
your filters of hopium, and thenyou can decide, what can I do here?
It will never be enough.
Let's just start with that.
We can never offer enough to solve thishorror show that we are participating
in now, and it's going to get worse.
I'm always in the question of,How can I be more grounded?

(30:04):
How can I open to the world as it is?
So practice among my warrior community.
We all recognize we needto practice more and more.
We need to meditate more and more.
We need to be more awareof mind body awareness.
We need to notice when we're gettingtriggered or filled with rage.

(30:24):
But we notice it, we don't act on it.
That's fine, as longas we don't act on it.
Anger and rage, we find other waysto contribute, and it's a drop in
the bucket these days of suffering.
It really is.
So, all of us raised in the westernworld of management, leadership, and

(30:46):
coaching, I think maybe the most profoundshift we have to go through is our
definition of what is a meaningful work.
What is a meaningful life?
I can start to sound like the bestpreacher you've ever heard at this
point, but let's just, we won't go there,

(31:08):
But it's true.
We were given a definitionof a meaningful life, right?
Healthy relationships.
great children, success, goodhome, good car, whatever.
I've been there, done that, and thosemeasures of what is a meaningful life now
have to shift to meet the context of Howdo people that we admire behave in war?

(31:35):
How do people who are facing greatpoverty, who've had to migrate, who've
had to give up everything, what do theyilluminate for us about what is meaningful
and what is meaningful human behavior?
So in "Restoring Sanity", I focus onthese qualities of the human spirit.

(31:55):
In an organizational context, whoknows if that's going to work, but
generosity, creativity, and kindness.
Those are qualities that I have seenin the worst circumstances, I've done
quite a lot of work in Southern Africa,and I've done a fair amount of work

(32:15):
in Australia with Aboriginal peoples.
So we need to understand what is trulymeaningful at the end of our lives.
It's nothing like we were told.
It's nothing like we were told.
But again, we have so manyexamples in our face right now.
Stories from Gaza, stories fromUkraine, stories from Sudan, stories

(32:41):
from Rwanda, I mean, these are theplaces that I focus on, of people just
rising up to take care of one another.
That's not what we thought we weredoing with our lives and work.
You know, whoever you're coaching, forme, what was truly meaningful always
was relationship that we developed thatspark that appeared in a conversation,

(33:07):
that feeling of, Oh, I just offeredsomething really fine to this person.
Not because I told him what to do, butbecause I was fully present for them.
I want to, this story goes way back.
I think it was 1987.
I was working for the director, ofthe Children's Museum in Boston.

(33:30):
I lived in Boston at the time.
And he had two consultants.
He had me.
I was just not like this.
You know, we're talkingabout 40 years ago.
I was interested in workingat the organizational level.
I was interested in his approval.
He had another consultantfrom Harvard Business School.

(33:50):
And we were sitting in his office oneday, I think he was quite upset at me
for something I had said in a staffmeeting, but as we started to talk
about where he needed to go, and again,I'm just a pretty normal consultant,
I just looked at him and I said, I'mnot talking to you about success.

(34:12):
I'm talking to you about your soul.
I was stunned.
The Harvard business school consultantalmost came out of her chair and he just
looked at me, but it was a true statement.

Wow

Maybe that was a precursor.
I mean, I was trying to get himto explore the deeper levels
of why he was doing this work.
I'm not speaking about foreign or strangeexperiences that we've all had as coaches
and consultants when we really werepresent, got to the heart of the matter

(34:47):
and we watched the person that we werecoaching, come to their own realization.
That's meaningful work.

Yeah

and that's what I find now if I can be in a good
helpful Conversation with anyone Ifeel good about the whole day, So I
would ask all of you to consult yourown experience of what have been truly
meaningful moments in your career.
Do this at home, also painful moments.

(35:20):
With your kids, with your partner,and look at what was going on there.
And I can guarantee this was always amoment of true connection of working
in the richness and fullness of who weare when we're being fully human, it
wasn't based on fear, panic, stress.

(35:43):
It was a moment of true presence.
And those moments often feel joyful.
So this is how we need toreconfigure our expectations about
what is a meaningful work for us.
We always remember those momentswhen there was true connection.

What I love about that is that Yeah, coaches, we are
particularly trained, experienced.
We've put a lot of hours in to how to helppeople discover what that is for them.
And to go back to something you saidearlier, in the West, we have grown
up in a culture that has, glorifiedindividualism that has glorified

(36:22):
individual definitions of success.
That's, 100 percent on displayin the coaching industry.

All coach training is okay (36:28):
you discover your vision, your values, which, as you
say, there is a place for that, that stillhas a role, but 99 percent of the coaching
modalities and training and books thatI've encountered are all about, okay,
and then we stop the great, go do it.
You've got your, you got your plan.
Go live your values and your vision.
That's it.
That's the end of the story.

(36:49):
This podcast, what I'm committedto is it's so obviously incomplete
to stop at what's your vision,what's your values end of story.

I want to give you a better adjective or at least it

works for me (37:00):
It's a poisonous concept

Yeah.

to think that, first of all, we have to make it on our own.
If you don't make it, it's your failure.
And, it leads to thismisinterpretation of what privilege is.
And then we feel guilty about it.
Everything that focuses on the individualleads us away from the solution to life,

(37:29):
which is community, being together.
And who do we choose to be?
I had to spend quite a lot of timedescribing the power of community within
indigenous peoples at least in thepast where when something goes wrong,
it's not the individual that's at faultthat we have to lock away to protect

(37:52):
society from that aberrant individual.
No, it's a failure of the community.
And also, the poison of believing inthe individual is what also leads to
competition, greed, and aggression, right?
It's me against them, it'snot our fault that we're here.

(38:13):
It really isn't.
These are far beyond the dynamicsthat are at play, which are
always at play in civilizationsat the end of their life cycle.
These dynamics are not controllable.
We tried our very best to stop them.
They cannot be stopped.
So now we have to choose to step outsideof those dynamics and get busy on our

(38:38):
interior development, so we can bein the outer world, not as a lonely
individual trying to get ahead and beliked, but as an individual who knows.
--This is the motto of my burkinaInstitute -- knows that whatever the
problem, community is the answer.

(39:00):
Coming together is the solution here.
And this is hard work becausewhen people are in fear, they
withdraw, they fear any difference.
This is just pure neurobiology.
We fear not just the stranger, butanyone who looks different when

(39:20):
we're back in our reptilian brains.
Our work is to develop ourselves andour own inner strength and confidence
so that we can be in these verydifficult situations where people
are acting not from human goodnessbut from self protection, animalistic

(39:40):
behaviors of fear and aggression,

Yeah.
I'm curious to get concretewith coaching for a moment here.
Ow, if you could give all thecoaches listening a task within
their role, within their, position ofrelationship and support and influence.

I wanna
Answer that by saying lookat what was truly meaningful
to also look at how your great skillsof listening and being present were
somewhat warped by needing to beliked and needing to be successful.
So that's where we start.

(40:16):
And also, changing your viewof what is your meaningful work
and what is a meaningful life.

Yeah.

Let's just say in your next coaching moment, just become
aware of whether anything I justflagged for you, your need to be liked
that distorts what you're saying, oryou're getting triggered that, makes
you less centered or less available.

(40:44):
Just start to notice the natureof your emotional reactions when
you're in a coaching session.
That's a good place to start.
I created the gold standard herethat we want to be fully present.
We want to embody compassion and insight.
We want to get past our own triggers,but maybe this isn't fair because I spend

(41:09):
months with people training them to beless triggered and to be more aware.
of when they go off and lose their center.
But this is a good place to start, Iwould say, in your next coaching session.
Also, look back at it later and reflecton what did you seem to need during

(41:33):
that session, and what was needed andhow did those two play out together.
So I'm actually just giving you someways to become more aware of the
things that influence our behaviorwhen we're coaching and also interfere
with our ability to be fully present.

Yeah.
Thank you.
As we draw to a close here, I'm feelingvery grateful to get to look with
clear eyes and be invited into theclear seeing that you've spent so many
years developing and then the what dowe do once we see one of the questions
I like to ask all my guests as wewrap up is about where you get some
of your inspiration or nourishment.

Oh, absolutely.
It's interesting, I've just beenasked by a book distributor, to name
the five books that I have benefitedfrom that inform my own work, which
my work now is to restore sanity.
But it wasn't books.
It was books that led meto spiritual teachers.

(42:37):
So I have for many years,I raised a large family.
I had a very flourishing career.
I traveled seemingly constantly.
Now I'm home.
My kids have their own families and Ihave enormous opportunity just to stay
grounded, not get caught up in the world.

(42:57):
But I have to say many, many years ago,probably decade, I put my spiritual
practice at the center of my life.
I had my spiritual practice.
I had my work and my family.
And it got easier when my kids werenot at home any longer, but I think
that shifting to paying first attentionto the state and quality of my mind,

(43:23):
which I then did by doing very longretreats, two month retreats every
winter with Pema Chodron's abbey, GampoAbbey, for 10 years, she was my teacher.
And that was my graduate courseto have a stable mind and to
be very present for people.
But I also find, great nourishmentin reading ancient, ancient history.

(43:50):
If anything is less than 10,000 years old,I basically am not interested right now.
That was for a while was my escapeliterature, but right now I'm studying,
reading, delighting in learning aboutthe goddess cultures that were the only
way of being on the earth that we now seeremnants of in indigenous cultures, but

(44:15):
35,000 years ago, ways we live together.
I know that we were much more,
both intelligent and spiritually groundedhundreds of thousands of years ago.
And so I study archaeology, I'm justfascinated how we keep pushing back
first evidence of human consciousness,human caring and compassion.

(44:40):
So I don't ground myself as much asI'm talking about the history of this
time and the pattern of collapse.
My true grounding is in going asfar back as I can now to discover
how we have manifested ourselves.
We didn't need to be Homo sapiens withother categories of the genus Homo.

(45:03):
But I have to say that it was thoselong retreats that gave me a stable
mind and I'm forever indebted to PemaChodron and we're very dear friends also.

Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I feel it's,
a privilege to, get to see the gems youbring back from hundreds of thousands of
years ago, research back to that time.
That's not what everyone is doingwith their care and their time.
So I appreciate that and all yourpractice that you're able to bring
to bear to share with folks.

Thank you.
And I, I just want to again, refer allof you to my website, which was meant
to be a resource, a library, but rightnow there is self paced Warriors for
the Human Spirit training that we'reoffering that you can, it's quite
inexpensive and you could Sign up forthe, and do that if you're interested.

(46:01):
It's at your own pace, but I meetwith everyone once a month and
I'm also, starting a course.
On developing the skills ofperseverance so we can restore sanity.
And then there's things youcan just watch and enjoy.
And so it, it's my way of stayingactive in the world is just to

(46:21):
create a very lively website for you.

Great.
Yeah.
And we'll link to that inthe show notes so that folks
check it and sign up.
Yeah.
Thank you, Margaret.
So grateful.

You're very welcome, Jeremy.
And I, offer many blessingson your good work.
I think You've really answered someof the question of who do I choose to
be by offering this and doing this.
So thank you for that.

Thank you so much for listening.
And thanks to Margaret forsharing her wisdom and her
compassionate perspective with us.
Check out the show notes for links to theresources mentioned in today's episode.
Episode 11 comes out soon withanticapitalist business coach Bear Hebert.

Bear Hebert (47:05):
Like reminding ourselves that commerce is not the same thing
as capitalism, so buying and sellingthings is a really old thing that
human beings have been doing for waylonger than capitalism has existed.
I think that it's possible totry to do commerce in ways that
are actively anti capitalisteven inside a capitalist system.

So make sure you subscribe in your podcast app of
choice so that you can catch thatepisode and all the future ones.
I wanted to share a review thatcame in on apple podcasts recently.
It's from tap LCC.
And they wrote, I'm just getting intocoaching and have talked to many other
coaches and mentors about the needfor more community and guidance around

(47:48):
politicized, coaching or coaching thatis connected to larger movement work.
Thank you so much for the laborof love that this podcast is.
So I just wanted to send somegratitude for that review.
And invite everyone listening totake a moment if you're able to.
And open apple podcasts andleave a rating and a review.

(48:10):
As always the website is widerroot.com,where you can find our newsletter.
My email is podcast at wider rootstockcom and you can follow the show
on Instagram at wider roots pod.
And special, thanks to Lindley and Yifor offering feedback on this episode.
Thanks to wild choir for thetheme music for the show, you're
currently listening to their song.

(48:31):
Remember me, which will play us out.
See you next time.

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