How to bring our politics into a session: Coaching on Gaza (w/ Dara Silverman)

Episode Transcript
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Dara Silverman (00:00):
And so in this moment around Gaza and the US's complicity in

(00:06):
Israel's attacks on Palestinians, the U.
S.
attacking other countriesin the Middle East, right?
Then I think there's the role for allof us as coaches, as political people
of like, what's my complicity in this?
Where are the places where I want tolook away, where I get so caught up in
my grief that I can't move beyond it?

Jeremy Blanchard (00:39):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast.
A show about how we can use thepower of coaching and personal
transformation to help create theworld we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard andtoday's episode is with Dara Silverman.
She was the founding director of showingup for racial justice, an organization
that brings together white folksworking for racial and economic justice.

(01:01):
She's been studying and teachingsomatics with the Strozzi Institute and
generative somatics for over a decade.
And she's currently running programsfor white coaches, facilitators and
organizers to integrate anti-racism intotheir work and into their whole lives.
This was a really importantconversation and I'm so grateful
that I got to talk to Dara.
We spoke about theongoing genocide in Gaza.

(01:24):
We talked about how our clients areexperiencing it, how we're experiencing
it as coaches and practitioners.
And what we can do to supportour clients when there's moments
of collective crisis like this.
I also asked Dara about her thoughtson when to have an agenda or not when
you're working as a politicized coach,which is one of the biggest questions

(01:46):
that I'm bringing into this podcast.
How can we balance our personalpoliticized perspective with the
general coaching principle of nothaving an agenda for our clients.
And she also offered some tips on howto coach white folks specifically to
notice when they might be perpetuatingsystems of domination or white supremacy.

(02:07):
So I'm excited for you tohear this conversation.
And if you want more resourcesabout this intersection of personal
and systemic transformation, youcan head over to WiderRoots.com
to sign up for the newsletter.
And if you're new to the podcast, makesure you subscribe in your podcast
player to catch the latest episode.
All right.
Let's dive in.

(02:31):
Well, Hi Dara.
Thanks so much for being here.

Hi, Jeremy.
Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I was excited to have you on the show, particularly
because we've been adjacent inmovement spaces for a long time.
I've heard your name from many of myanti racist organizer friends, many
of my climate organizer friends.
And yeah, you've been doing this work forso long, and you're one of the handful
of people who I've encountered who'sreally strongly at this intersection

(02:56):
of systemic transformation and personaltransformation now, especially now
that you're getting into coachingin the last five, seven years.
So just really glad you're here.

Yeah, I am a big fan of that intersection.
So I'm happy to dive in.

So I would love to start with your roots.
Curious how you got yourstart in organizing.
And then maybe we can move on to how yougot your start in coaching as well, since
that's a more recent addition, it seems.

It's such an interesting story you know, I
grew up in Ithaca, New York.
So in central New York, myparents were mixed class Jews
who came from New York City.
And when I went to college, Idiscovered organizing and was like,
Oh, we don't just have to help peoplewith the immediate problem, they
can make changes in their own lives.

(03:43):
And I can be a part of supporting that,and I was like, that is so much better.
I want to do that.
When I was organizing.
I have this memory of I was living inSomerville in Massachusetts . I was
working in Worcester and it's aboutan hour drive and I had this really
big cell phone and I would get inthe car, which was like one of those

(04:05):
purple Volvos, like the boxy kind.
And I would start crying as soon asI got in the car, because every day
I was working from 7 in the morning,I would wake up and do data entry.
I would drive to Worcester, I wouldgo door knocking, I would come home,
I would do more data entry, andI would go to sleep, and I just,
there was no space in my life.

(04:26):
And I would cry on my way to work, and Iwould say, I have to stop crying because
I have to start making phone calls.
I have to get to work.
And one time I had this dreamthat I was driving to work and
I started to have a car crash.
I like went over a cliff and as Iwas going over the cliff, I got on my

(04:46):
phone and I called my co worker andsaid, I'm going to be late for work.
You have to cover my one on ones.
And It was such a visceral memoryof what my life was like at that
time that all I could think aboutwas work and that I didn't really
think of my body as a thing.
And I was mostly organizing at the timein Puerto Rican and Dominican communities.

(05:10):
And at a certain point, some ofthe women who I worked with some of
the members really called me out.
And they were like, Hey.
You talk over your members, andyou don't let them say all the
things that they have to say.
And I got really mad, because that waslike my only emotion at that point.
I was like, that's not true!
I'm a good organizer!
And then I really thoughtabout it, and was like, wow, I

(05:32):
have to do some work on this.
But I didn't know where to do that becauseI was from such a political background.
I hadn't really been in therapyat that point and I was like,
well, what do I do to do this?
And I started getting involved inJewish community because I was like,
well, maybe there's something there.
Because the women had said to me,like, why are you organizing with us?

(05:54):
Why aren't you organizingyour own community?
And I was like, I don't even know whatthat means to organize my own community.
And a friend of mine was like, HeyI went to this course with this
group, the Strozzi Institute aboutsomatics, I think you'd really like it.
And I was in this corporate hotelroom with a lot of people who were

(06:15):
from major companies like Pfizer, andI was like, Whoa, that's really weird.
I've never been around people like this,but they were all talking about what
they cared about and about the body and.
At that point, I'd been in therapy,I think, for seven years and the
weekend was so transformational forme that I went home and I quit therapy

(06:38):
and was like, I just got more outof these last four days than I've
gotten out of seven years of therapy.
I want this.
And there was someone who was amaster coach who was in the program.
And I was like, I'm goingto do the coaching program.
I'm going to do all the things.
And it was before.
Strozzi Institute was certified by theInternational Coaching Federation, and

(07:00):
she was like, go somewhere else, getthe basics of coaching, come back to
Strozzi, and learn somatics, becausethen you'll be layering it on top
of knowing the basics of coaching.
So I went through a program calledLeadership That Works, Coaching for
Transformation, which no longer existsin the US, they had a big breakdown
around race and white supremacy.
I was in their first cohort thatwas majority people of color and

(07:23):
it was a real range politically.
and there was enough for me whereI was like, oh, okay, I get it.
Like I see what's happening here.
I see how transformative this can be.
And I immediately just started practicecoaching with all my consulting clients.

So cool.
I love this story because it feelslike surfacing these stories of how
organizers find their way to like, Oh,we need to be doing the inner work,
whether that's spiritual, whether that'shealing, whether that's somatics, whether
that's coaching or something else.
actually, I think more and more and moreover the last long period of time, but

(07:58):
especially in our organizing circles,like over the last 10 years or so, I've
seen more people get involved in, oh, it'snot enough to just be pushing, pushing,
pushing, pushing for external change.
But there's this way of being thatwe're getting more curious about
how do I bring a different way ofbeing to the external transformation?

(08:19):
So I love hearing that in your story.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.

Yeah, let's start with, Gaza.
I found an article you wrote in2016 that was about what Jews
can do for Black Lives Matter.
And at that moment you weredrawing the parallels between
the Palestinian experience andthe Black experience in the U.S.
And now here we are.
We're recording this early February.
It's been three months of a siege on Gaza.

(08:46):
And I know from a coaching perspective,there's a lot of questions I'm bringing
about how I'm showing up to this whenthis comes up in coaching conversations.
A lot of my clients are bringing itup, Encountering their own personal
grief and stress and despair.
And then encountering a lot ofinterpersonal stuff of the way in which
this issue is like fracturing a lot ofrelationships in different communities.

(09:09):
So yeah, I'm curious, justbroadly, how are you holding this?
And then maybe more specifically,like, how are you holding this with
clients when this comes up in coaching?

Yeah.
Such an importantquestion for this moment.
As you said it's February 2nd.
There are I think over 26, 000Palestinians who have been murdered,
there are over 1200 Israelis who havedied, who were killed on October 7th.
And I think even just the scale of thatlevel of violence, like of the murders

(09:42):
that have happened, of the injuries, ofthe miscarriages, like it's just hard for
our systems to like, hold and visualize.
And I think it's one of the piecesthat I really feel for in myself
is like the disassociation that canbe so close to the surface of like.
Oh, I can't see that level of pain.

(10:03):
I don't want to see pictures ofbabies who have been killed or all
the amputees or all of the things.
And then what's my responsibility asa Jew of knowing that Jewishness is
being used and that the way that Israelwas created was both as a way for

(10:23):
European countries to have access inthe Middle East, a way to, to divide
and undermine democratic movementsand governments in the Middle East.
And there's these two competingideologies, like there are people
who think through Zionism and throughtheir political beliefs that Jews will
only be safe if we have a country.

(10:44):
And then there's this other view thatI really feel like I came up in, which
comes out of the Labor Bund, the labororganizing of Eastern Europe, which
is that Jews are safe when we're insolidarity with other communities.
And the word for that in Yiddishis doikayt, or here ness.
So I think in terms of me, it's likea lot of practice is around those

(11:08):
moments of disassociation or distancingfrom what's really happening right
now and what's really important.
And then it's interesting with clients.
I have a whole range of clients.
I do publicly identify as an anti-Zionist.
And I don't believe thestate of Israel should exist.
I also don't believe the US should exist.

(11:28):
And I'm also a realist, so I don'tthink either of those countries
are going anywhere, but thatdoesn't mean that politically I
think that we should be supportingthem, even as a citizen of the U.S.
So then I think with clients, workingwith a range of clients, it's been a
whole piece of like, people who arefeeling it so deeply, who are deep in
organizing and thinking about it andworking through it every day who both

(11:52):
are supporting Palestinians, and thenpeople who have family in Israel, and are
supporting people in Israel, or how peoplehave been killed, or who are hostages.
And how to feel my own politics and likemy own agenda and where the places are
where it's useful for me to name thatand where are the places where it isn't.

I mean that's the big question, right?
I feel like for me, the coach trainingthat I got was completely apolitical.
I think that's true for most coaches.
There's only a handful of schools thathave an explicit political and justice
orientation in their coach training.
And we're taught not tohave an agenda for clients.

(12:33):
And I came up in a group of peoplewho were like climate and racial
justice organizers going throughan apolitical coaching school.
And we were all askingourselves this question.
Well, we're not supposed to have an agendafor clients this is what the International
Coaching Federation, the ICF says, andthis is what all the coaching schools say.
And it's said as like apremise for what coaching is.

(12:57):
And yet the only reason I'm doing thisis because I'm committed to movements
for systemic transformation and change.
Okay.
Well what's what's my theoryon how I engage this moment?
Part of it, you're talking about is whomy clients are which I think is maybe
the clearest piece if I have clientswho are already very politicized, maybe

(13:19):
this will come up at some level, butwe're already kind of on the same page
but what happens when I have clientswho have very different opinions and
political views or are interested inand becoming more politicized, but
don't understand, they don't have alens up looking for white supremacy
and capitalism, et cetera, right?
I'm sure you've thoughtof this in your coaching.

(13:41):
It's maybe not an answerablequestion, but like, how are
you moving with that inquiry?

Yeah, I mean at this point I split my time between teaching
somantics to politicized folks, doingindividual coaching and working with
client organizations, mostly aroundrace and transformation and supporting
leadership to build a racial justiceanalysis and put it into practice.
So I get to be kind ofchoosy about my clients.

(14:10):
And I feel lucky about that.
if I'm working with people whoare less politicized, it's because
I'm brought in to work with themaround their political analysis.

And it's explicit.

Yeah, exactly.
So the one client I have who has familyin Israel, has kids who are studying
in Israel, we're in a very activeconversation of what does it mean
to be a white Jewish person workingin a majority BIPOC organization,
and for you to be in this position?
And like, where's the balance here?
And I mean, since October 7th, it'sall we've worked on and talked about.

(14:43):
At the end of a session, when I say what'syour mood or how did this go for you?
What are you taking away from this?
I remember one session, she said,I really thought you would have
more judgment of me this session.
And I was like, Oh, that's so interesting.
Let's unpack that a little bit.

Yeah.

And so in this moment around Gaza and the US's complicity in
Israel's attacks on Palestinians, the U.
S.
attacking other countriesin the Middle East, right?
Then I think there's like the role forall of us as coaches, as political people

(15:20):
of like, what's my complicity in this?
Where are the places where I want tolook away, where I get so caught up
in my grief that I can't move beyondit, where I maybe have a hard time
following Palestinian leadership thatdoesn't take the line that I want them
to take and what's the recenteringthat I need to do in this moment that
we need to do in this moment to supportour politics and like the vision of

(15:44):
the world that we're longing for?
So I feel like for me, it'sbeen a real humbling experience.
As much as I dove into localorganizing and holding online groups

(16:04):
for Jews who are anti Zionist and ourfriends, and having all these people
come who are like, I just startedidentifying as anti Zionist this week.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many good themes in what you said there.
One part I hear is an invitation forthe coach or the leader who's doing
this kind of support work to do someof their further internal work, right?
Of okay, where am I complicit?
If I'm in a privileged identity,especially white coaches,
white consultants, et cetera.
Where am I leaning back?

(16:35):
Where am I moving away?
And why?
What's coming up for me that I'm movingaway so that I can move forward, follow
the leadership of the folks that are mostimpacted, in this case, Palestinians.
Yeah.

Yeah, I think there is that self management.
There's the self work, then there'sa self management in sessions.
I know I was doing generative somantics,which is another, somatic formation that
a practitioner through they were havingfree sessions for folks after October
7th, and I signed up and I was holdinga bunch of those and there were a bunch

(17:07):
of therapists who were like, I'm gettingreally angry at my clients because they're
not talking about Gaza anymore, and Iwas like, Oh, that's so interesting.
Like, what does that mean whenyou're a politicized person and
other people move past this politicalmoment or aren't as in it as you are.
And I'm not facing that withthe folks that I work with,

(17:30):
people are still really in it.
And we know what happens, especiallyas we're going into an election
year as other things come up, thatthere will be a waning of interest.
There's never been this much attentionon Palestine as there is right now.
And so those of us who are reallycommitted to Palestinian liberation,
short term to a ceasefire and longterm to Palestinian self determination.

(17:54):
There's a question of howmany people will stay?
And I think for me, as someone who'swhite and Jewish what can I do to support
and invite more and more people to,to stay in and to keep being engaged?
And then a lot of thathappens through relationship.

Yeah.
Amen.
And another thing to go back towhat you said a minute ago is, the
client who was worried that you weregoing to judge them for their views.
It's such a, that's part of the balancethat I find really interesting here
of we're coming in highly politicized,many coaches are inviting in clients
who are already politicized and alreadyin movement work at a high level.
Doesn't mean they don't have workto do, but there's kind of a base, a

(18:32):
foundation of alignment already present.
And we're also there to create avery high relationship, high trust,
safe space, so that they feellike they can bring things to us.
It's different than therapy, butit has some of those traits of,
we really want to create like hightrust, so that we can challenge them

(18:53):
in moments where they're open tobeing challenged and invited further.
But if we're sitting therebringing our high, mighty kind
of perspective on politics.
I mean, maybe one way we can, that'soccurring to me to think about it
is what's your theory of changeinside a coaching session, right?
Of like, do I think thatshaming this person for not, you
know, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.

(19:14):
Do I think that, reprimandingthem for some political
belief that they're holding?
Do I think that's a good theoryof how transformation happens?
Definitely not.
Um, uh, versus creating a space where wecan really join together on something.
And maybe there are moments wherewe can see if there's curiosity
to go further on an issue.
Maybe this is something you don't knowyet that you might be curious about.

(19:36):
Let's at least create an openingthat they might not even be aware
of that is available for them.

Right.
Right.
I can think of other folks whoI'm coaching who are doing a ton
of Palestinian solidarity work.
White Jews who were testifyingbefore legislative committees
and doing direct action, right?
And doing a whole range of thingsand are really draining themselves.
Cause they're going sohard in this moment.

(20:02):
And I think that piece of whatit means to be on someone's team
and what our theory of change oflike how transformation happens.
I'm so steeped in this particular lineageof somatic practice coming out of the
Strozzi Institute and Generative Somaticsand Black Organizing for Leadership and
Dignity and the Embodiment Institute, thatI think for me, I think if people don't

(20:25):
change by shame or blame or forcing theminto things, I think they change because
they have a vision of the world they want.
And then they keep practicing and aligningthemselves towards that vision and that
being a coach, then it's like being someof the guardrails and helping them really
rehome towards what is that vision?

(20:46):
Yeah.
And then, for those of us who are white,what does it mean to also recognize that
we grew up that under white supremacy,we have it as a part of our worldview,
there are things that we can't see.

It also makes me curious about your work, with
white coaches and white consultants.
You're running this program now tohelp white coaches and consultants
deepen their anti racist work.
I'm curious, how did that start?
And what's the intention

Yeah.
It's called Embodying Freedom.
And we're doing a cohortthis year of 28 people.
And really it started because in 2020,when COVID started, I started doing
courses online teaching somantics towhite racial justice organizers and
coaches and activists, and reallybringing in more anti racist theory.

(21:35):
Right?
So like when we look at Amy Cooper, thewhite woman in New York City who had
her dog off leash and a black birdercame along and asked her to put her dog
back on leash, having people watch theirinteraction through a somatic lens and
say, Oh, what do I see in Amy Cooper?
Not just that I'm like, Oh,that's bad and racist, but

(21:58):
like, what can I identify with?
What are the parts where I'mlike, Oh, I do that thing.
As another white person, oh, she's gettinglouder when she's talking to the police.
I do that when I wantpeople to hear my authority.
And I think there's thatpiece for white people, what
does it mean to be accountableand dignified and also relaxed?

(22:20):
Because one of the things that Ihear a lot from people of color is,
white people can get so awkward whenthey start doing anti racist work.
They get really tense, and they'retrying to get everything right,
and it can feel kind of robotic.
It's like, oh, right, we want tobe human with the people around us.
We want to be in realrelationships with people of color.
Like, how do we get to reallypractice, like what it means to be in

(22:47):
a commitment to ending white supremacyin our lifetimes, in ourselves, in
our communities, in the world andbe in community while doing that?
And I think one of the challengesthat I've really been in is that
The somatic streams that I cameup in really believe that it takes
a long time to become embodied.

(23:08):
And I think a lot of thatstructure is based on white people.
And the fact that a lot of whitepeople aren't very embodied.
And so it takes us longer to get embodied.
Like seven years is thelanguage that's often used.
And I think when people are in anti racistwork, when they're in community, we know
this for a lot of Indigenous cultures,for Black and Latinx and Asian and

(23:30):
Pacific Islander communities, that they'rein embodiment practices all the time.
And so how do we, as white people,start to build our embodiment practices?
And then start to use that in ourwork, when we're facilitating,
when we're coaching folks can weinvite people to feel our bodies
and not just see the body as like avessel carrying around our brains.

Yeah, and you're leading this group and you have a
lot of longings for the folks you'reserving, coaches, organizers, etc.
I'm curious, specifically for whitecoaches, is there like a wish that
you have or an invitation ? Likewhat is your wish for white
coaches to develop in themselves?

Yeah.
I think part of us tobe in community, right?
Like that we are not alone in doing less.
Because like you said, most of thecoaching spaces are not politicized.
It feels so special when we get to bewith other coaches who are politicized
and other white coaches who arepoliticized of like, Oh, I get to

(24:32):
actually be in these questions aboutwhat are the contradictions that I'm
feeling in this moment working withclients who don't share my politics?
What does it mean to be witha white person when they say
something racist in a session?
How do I blend with that?
And then what's the higher callingthat I bring them to and that as well.
I think there are so many piecesthat we learn and like the coaching

(24:54):
format about asking good questionsand setting the agenda right and all
the International Coaching Federationstandards of what it means to be a coach.
And I think all of those can also be seenas being rooted in an overly structured
or deterministic or white supremacistway of this is the right way to do it.
And so I think there's this way of how dowe really be present for what's happening

(25:19):
for the white folks we're workingwith when there's an opening, right?
When it's a moment of the whirlwind,as they say, momentum of like, all of
a sudden the ground is shifting andlike, how do we be with and hold folks
and move them towards that big visionof where they want to go and the big
political vision that when we're workingwith politicized clients, we share.

Mm.
Mm.
Yeah I love that invitation.
I think that's a part of the intentionI bring to this podcast, too, is
how can this public one directionalsharing of some people who are really
leading the way at this intersection.
How can that also eventually turninto where there are ways that
we can make more connections?
Because I feel like there, again,there are a handful of coaching

(26:01):
schools out there that are politicized.
There's a lot of politicizedcoaches who got trained in other
schools who don't necessarilyhave easy in-road to community.
And even among the schools arepoliticized, it feels like there's
a lot of silos of like, Oh, I knowall the people who are in my school
who care about social justice And soone is along similar lines that this.
That we can create more communityand what are the ways we can connect

(26:23):
and have a shared experience.
So I love that.

Awesome.

Yeah, what I appreciate in what you're naming there is there's a
lot of things in the coaching world thatI think are we can validly like question
and critique and have an assessment ofand consider different ways of doing.
One of the questions I really wrestlewith that's bringing me into this
podcast project is where are thelimitations of coaching, right?

(26:52):
It's modality where we work one on one.
We're often charging very high fees.
And there's a lot questions I bring intolike, I know I feel deeply called to it.
It was a source of greattransformation for me.
I've seen it over the last decade,be a source of great growth and
transformation for my clients.
And yet I guess the bigger questionis, what role do you think coaching

(27:13):
has to play within movement spacesand what are its limitations?

Yeah I remember when I was the director at
JFRJ, I was in this like middlelevel leaders training program.
And one of the trainers said mybrother in law works for JP Morgan
Chase or something like that.
And he said, every day his bosscomes to him and says, how can
I be supporting your leadership?

(27:40):
And I was blown away by that question.
I was like, to have a boss who'sthinking about your leadership every day?
I've never had that.
And so it was just alittle bit humbling, right?
I've always worked in the nonprofit world.
I've always been in this world wherewe're stretched so thin and we're so

(28:01):
under resourced and we're so struggling.
And so for me, I think when I startedto receive coaching and then when I
started to offer coaching, it was like,Oh, I get to be invested in really
deeply and someone's really excited.
I'm like on my team.
I didn't really grow up with team sports.
My parents didn't believein that sort of thing.

(28:21):
And so I never reallyhad a coach like that.
Like I had teachers, but I never reallyhad someone who was like, my entire job
is just to support you to get better inthe ways that you want to get better.
And so when I think about coaching forpeople who are in social justice and
movement work, it's really like, whatdoes it mean to have someone on your team?

(28:43):
And have someone who just isunequivocally like, yeah, I want you
to be like the best that you can be.
And like, you're committed to thisworldview of how we can transform the
world, I am with you, I'm at your back.
And just the ways in which people relaxwhen they feel someone at their back.
I had a client who runs abig donor network in the U.

(29:06):
S.
of giving money to folks who are workingon electoral politics, and he ran his
first retreat last week, and he textedme afterwards, and he was like, I
couldn't have done this without you.
And he totally could have, right?
But he might not havebelieved that he could have.
And so I think that's the thingin community organizing, we talk a
lot about building people's skills,building people's political analysis,

(29:29):
and building people's confidence.
And a lot of times with whitepeople, we have too much confidence.
We believe that we can do anythingbecause we've been told that our whole
lives and sometimes it's like pullingthat confidence back a little bit and
having there be some more humility and Ithink that's been a big learning for me
is like I don't have all the answers andso it's a little bit of a contradiction

(29:52):
with the story that I just told but Ithink there's also a piece of what does
it mean to support movement leaders?
In that situation, it's a youngLatino man who I was supporting.
In other situations with white peoplewho I'm coaching, it might be...
Like, I remember coaching someone who wasworking for a statewide LGBT organization.
And she was really having a hard timebeing taken seriously by her staff.

(30:17):
And I remember some of thecoaching was like, do less.
What would it be like forthis entire next week?
For every time you want to tell someonewhat they could be doing better,
to, write it down or text it to me.
And she was like, I've never done that.

Wow.

Right?
Because there's so much in the way thatwhiteness teaches us of our ideas are
important, let's get them out there.
And then when you're a supervisor,there isn't necessarily the
discernment of when is the righttime to bring up my five different
critiques of how you hung that banner.
Right?
Or whatever it is.
And just to be like, good job.

(30:55):
Great job making this meeting happen.
I'm so proud that therewere 20 people here.
Right?
Whatever it is.
And just the longing that peoplehave for support and appreciation.
So, I think for me, a big part of beinga coach and being a coach who's focused
on race and racial justice and supportingwhite people to take race on and make it

(31:16):
our lens is sometimes when people arefirst starting to do race work, white
people, they think it has to be superhard and that they're gonna feel bad all
the time and that means it's working.
As opposed to oh, for us to actuallybe relaxed and dignified and
accountable, we have to feel likewe're not making mistakes all the time.
Yeah, we make mistakes all the time, butif all we can do is feel the mistakes,

(31:39):
then we're never going to relax into theknowledge or experience that we do have
and have the capacity to try thingsor not try things and see what happens.
Does that make sense?

It makes great sense.
And what I love about it is it's a placewhere they're, part of my inquiry with
this podcast is I know from experiencethat there are so many places where
coaching and social justice broughttogether look different than just
coaching or just social justice work.
And there's like a deep longing to like.
be in inquiry around those.

(32:11):
And you're naming one of them right here,which is in if I make a little bit of
an exaggeration of the coaching world atlarge It would often have someone coaching
a white client if you had no politicalanalysis coaching a white client to be
like well You need to what do you want?
And what do you most want for you?
And now you need to speak upmore about what you want and

(32:32):
sure, sometimes that is the move.
Absolutely.
And there's such a sweet and simplemoment that doesn't even necessarily look
politicized, if you were just listeningto a recording of the conversation
where you're like, what if you did less?
What if you didn't have to critique there?
You're not bringing up race necessarily.
I mean, you could.
And I think there's value to namingwhite supremacy in a moment like
that, or other forms of conditioning.

(32:53):
And, you might not need to, but yetit's a moment of politicized coaching,
very elegantly worked in, that works incounter to what most coaching culture
would maybe have done in that moment.
I think that's a beautiful example.

Hmm.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I think that's such an important pointbecause I think sometimes we can feel
like being a politicized coach means likeyou're bringing up analysis and theory and
like systems of oppression all the time.
And a lot of it is justthe approach, you know?

So good.
I'm curious to hear what your coachinggrowth area is or what skills you're
leaning into and recognizing atthis point in your learning journey
as like your next area of growth.

I recently did a two day with this great program that's
based in Los Angeles, Coaching forHealing Justice and Liberation.
And it was such a great refresher becausethey also come out of Leadership That
Works Coaching for Transformation sothey have a lot of similar frameworks
to the way that I was trained butwith a really politicized analysis.

(33:57):
And one of the pieces that I reallygot from the two day that I've been
really practicing is my self management.
I think one of the places I'vereally been feeling that is when
people ask me how I'm doing.
At the beginning of a coaching calland especially in these past couple of
months with everything that's happeningin Gaza and then also my 91 year old

(34:18):
mother in law just moved to town and mypartner and I are taking care of her.
And it's a huge thing in my lifethat there's this 91 year old
that's in my life and navigatingMedicaid and all these things.
But I really can feel if I share toomuch about what's happening for me,

(34:38):
that, that piece I was talking aboutearlier, that transference, that care,
that clients or coaching partners willturn to like, Oh, my God, I have to take
care of you, or like, I was thinkingabout you and worrying about you after
our last session, and just feeling forthat edge, both around the personal
piece, and then there have been momentsaround the attacks on Palestinians

(35:00):
where I've just been really upset.
And it's just been a real question of,like, how do I go into a session and
what do I need to manage it in myself sothat I can be present for this person?
So I feel like that's an edgethat I've been working lately is
really around self management.

Yeah.
One of the questions that I like to endepisodes with is this name Wider Roots
comes from many different metaphors.
One of them is where we getour sources of nourishment.
And so like to end episodes by asking,where are you getting your nourishment?
Maybe it's books, music,someone you're following online.

I love that question.
I'm reading this bookNervous by Jen Soriano.
She was an organizer inthe Bay for a long time.
She lives up in Seattle now.
She's a Filipina writerand activist and organizer.
And it's really about the ways in whichcolonialism and post traumatic stress
disorder and like our nervous systemsare all wound up together and like the

(36:06):
healing process and it's so beautiful andso heartfelt and I feel like I'm learning
so much about myself, about her, about thePhilippines, which I'm now also reading
a history book about at the same time.
So just really appreciating that.
I just watched the latest season of Fargo.
It's pretty amazing because Ilove pop culture in many ways.

(36:30):
And this one is a lot about domesticviolence and domestic abuse.
And there's one episode wherethe main character is recounting
the abuse that she survived formany years through a puppet show.
She makes a puppet of herself andit's really such an act of resilience

(36:50):
of her telling the story to a groupof women about what she survived.
And it's devastating andit's also really beautiful.
And just to see mainstream culturetaking on intimate partner violence in
such a deep way is really impactful.
I feel like I should say onemore, which is a podcast.
There's a podcast called Handsome, whichis three butch and trans comedians.

(37:16):
And it's just very light, and Ireally appreciate it, and they have a
political analysis that they work in.

Cool.
Yeah.
I've heard this is Tig Notaro and,

Yeah, Mae Martin.
Yeah, Fortune Feinster, exactly.

Nice.
Cool, thank you.
Is there anything else that wedidn't get to that you want to
surface for folks listening?

No, I just really appreciate this conversation.
I don't think about coachingas a form that much.
So, I feel like your questions for meto think about some of the connections
between coaching and social andracial justice and somatic work.
So, I'm glad we got tohave that conversation.

Yeah, yeah, me too.
So grateful.
Where can folks connect withyou or find out more or connect
with you to work with you?

You can find me on my website, DaraSilverman.com.
I have all my new courses up there.
You can find me on Instagram.
I probably use that the mostof the socials or LinkedIn.
I'm doing these in personcourses, this year long program.
I have a free practicegroup every Tuesday at 9 a.
m.
Pacific so that's 10 a.
m.
Mountain, 11 a.
m.
Central, noon, Eastern.

(38:24):
It's for 45 minutes.
Folks can just sign up on my website.
It's the same link every week.
It's for the whole year.
It just feels like right now is really atime to like deepen and practice together
and sustain ourselves for the long haul.

I love that.
And links to all that in theshow notes so folks can find you.
Thank you for yourcommitment to this work.
Thank you for sharing your wisdomand experience and inquiries
with us and the folks listening.
And yeah, excited for more.

I am as well.
It's been great to getto talk to you, Jeremy.
I look forward to more.

Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
You can check out the show notes forlinks to the resources that Dara mentioned
and other ways to connect with her.
Episode four comes out intwo weeks with Noelle Janka.
She's a politicized coach and theauthor of the book, Rebel Healing.

Noelle Janke (39:23):
And she was like, the river is filled drop by drop.
Do not underestimate the powerof doing individual work.

So make sure you subscribe in your podcast app of
choice so that you can catch thatepisode and all the future ones.
And as I mentioned at the topof the episode, if you haven't
subscribed to the newsletter yet,I really invite you to do so.
My hope is that over the monthsahead, the newsletter grows and
leads to ways that you all canstart connecting with one another.

(39:51):
So I invite you to pause this episode,if it is safe for you to do so, and
click the link in the show notesto sign up for the newsletter, or
you can just go to WiderRoots.com.
If you have ideas for topics you'dlike us to cover on the show, you
can email me podcast@widerroots.com.
And you can follow the podcaston Instagram at @WiderRootsPod.

(40:13):
Thanks to Wild Choir for thetheme music for this show, you're
currently listening to their song,Remember Me, which will play us out.
See you next time.

(41:16):
I always add bloopers at theend of every, for like just
a little five second blooper.
So all of the doginterruptions will be a part.
I'm sure there'll be some funny momentwhere like, hold on, dog, laugh.
Oh,

you want to see what she looks like, she just came in the room.

Sweetie pie.
Oh, look at you.
Oh.

What a good girl.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to bring our politics into a session: Coaching on Gaza (w/ Dara Silverman)