Making space for imperfection in activist spaces (w/ Mazin Jamal)

Episode Transcript
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Mazin Jamal (00:00):
So how can we create such rich belonging, that there's room to
challenge each other without fearing thatwe're going to be kicked out of the group?
Like that's, I think, the bestrelationships I have where it's
like, our relationship is too strongfor the truth to challenge it.
So the truth is not unsafe.

Jeremy Blanchard (00:29):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast.
A show about how we can use thepower of coaching and personal
transformation to help create theworld we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard.
And today's episode is with myfriend and collaborator Mazin Jamal.
He's the co-founder of holisticunderground, which does many things.

(00:49):
Including consulting withorganizations around justice,
equity, diversity, and inclusion.
He's also a community builder,a musician and a coach.
And I love to have this conversationwith Mazin because we got to talk about
what do we do as coaches and facilitatorsto stay grounded ourselves when we're
in conversations about race and equity,when things start to get really heated.

(01:13):
And we also talked about the importantrole that coaches play in helping
people find their unique role inmovement work and social change work.
If you want more resourcesabout personal and systemic
transformation, you can head over toWiderRoots.com to join our newsletter.
All right.
Let's dive in.

(01:33):
Hey Mazin, welcome to the show.

Hey, great to be here.
Thanks for having me.

Can you introduce yourself for folks listening?

Yeah.
Hey, everyone.
My name is Mazin Jamal.
Really excited to be here speakingto you all through the interwebs.
Um, like many other people, I'msure I'll be on this podcast.
I got a lot of hyphens, but, um,I really see myself as someone who
is here to support people who arecreating change, people who are

(02:03):
innovating around spirituality, socialchange, culture, community, art, to
do what they're doing in a way that'ssustainable, to be able to thrive in
their health, to be able to prosper intheir finances, deepen their impact.
So I do that in a couple ways.
I do that coaching, love coaching too.
Um, and it's also evolved thatI'm bringing that coaching

(02:26):
mindset to, uh, an organization.
I'm a few.
So I have a fiscal sponsorshipbusiness, you know, it's a nonprofit
that helps other nonprofits do theirthing and we handle the back end.
Um, I work a lot with changemakers,spiritual innovators of color,
particularly, um, activists kindof around the world, coaching,

(02:47):
consulting, tactical support.
And I've done a lot of consultingtoo, doing a little less of that
now, but around justice equity, uh,diversity and inclusion, culture.
And I'm a musician, so those are kindof the main, main hats, you know.

The joy you say, uh, and I'm a musician.
with,

Yeah.

Brings me a lot of joy.
Yeah, that's

Thank you.
Yeah.

Cool.

hmm.

Yeah.
And we've gotten to, uh, be on thisjourney together for a long time now.
Many, many years, I don'tknow, eight, nine years maybe.
And, uh, you know, we've had manydifferent ways that we've gotten
to, uh, support one another.
You know, I was, was your trainer andmentor, and then you were my trainer
and mentor, and we've been, you know,colleagues, co-conspirators, so many

(03:35):
different roles we've gotten to play.
Um, You.

Jeremy changed my life.
Let me just put it very simply.
Maybe I changed your life too,but You you changed my life

You did.

Uh, I want to, I want to just share like.
Um, I was like, Oh, I want to become acoach and a coach training or whatever.
And I was like $300 short.
It was so like, oh, I justcouldn't afford the training.
You're like, all right, I'msending you, $300 right now.
What's your PayPal?
Like, you were just like, you aretaking this, this training, like you,
you know, I just, you believed me.
And then you like basically gaveme like three months of free

(04:05):
coaching with that crowdfund.
So.
Yeah, I just want to, Itestify this man is helping us.

Oh,
well, well,

many of my friends, partners to like, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you.
Yeah it's been a, it's been a joy.
And, uh, thank you too, becausethis podcast wouldn't be
here if it weren't for you.
Uh, it was, uh, a year and a half ago,we were on the phone and, uh, uh,
I was talking about how I wanted toexplore these topics at the intersection
of coaching, personal transformation,systemic transformation, and, uh, you

(04:42):
were like, why don't you start a podcast?
So, a year and a half later, here we are.
So, thank you for that.

I'm glad to be here, man.
This is, this is an honor.
Yeah.

So, um, let's get into it.
I'm curious about your approachto, JEDI stuff, justice, equity,
diversity, and inclusion, your coaching,your consulting in that regard.
Um, one of the reasons I was sograteful to get to learn from you
for that year-long program that Idid of yours is the way that you

(05:18):
bring together a truth-telling aroundthese topics and an inviting space.
And I have a bunch of questionsrelated to that, but one is just,
what's like the origin story there?
Like, what in your experience inlife has helped shape approach being
available and prominent for you?

Yeah.
My mentor, Tony Moss, put it in a certainway that's really, um, held true for
me, which is, uh, it's really all aboutconsciousness evolution, which sounds
super out there, but what it reallymeans is, as humans, we are so creative.
We have all this technology.
We have all these solutions andsystems and all these different

(06:01):
ways that we can do things.
We've got all theseenvironmental solutions.
There's like 50 million books.
Like we just followed the book,we could fix the economy, right?
We have all the ideas, but we more orless like can't get along for a long
enough period of time and cooperateeffectively to make things happen.

(06:23):
That's a big part of it.
And there are also people who are reallystuck and are working really hard and
very effectively and cooperativelytowards keeping things the same or
moving things in a direction that,you know, to them, they probably
think it's for the best, but...
We're all like, nah, that'snot, that's not the only way.
And you know, there, um,we can get into that later.

(06:43):
So, a big part of my inspirationin everything I do is...
I did a lot of study in universityaround, um, different social movements.
So I studied the Occupy Movement, Istudied the Arab Spring, the Civil
Rights Movement, and all the different...
branches of the sixtiesand seventies movements.
I got to study underpeople who were doing that.
I got to have conversations withElaine Brown and Bobby Seale, former

(07:07):
chairmen of the Black Panther Party.
I got to talk to all these OGs, youknow, and, um, was also, and have been
a part of the revolution in Sudan.
Um, you know, when I talk aboutArab Springs studying, I mean,
like I was talking to people whowere like being tortured and like,
you know, cause, cause, um, I hadfriends and connections in Egypt.
Where I'm going tomorrow, anotherstory, but, um, all that study, right?

(07:32):
And I'm an activist at this timeand I am so passionate, right?
But I knew something was offand it really dawned on me when
I discovered holistic health.
And at SF State, there's this holistichealth department and it's like, you
walk in and it's just like tea, free tea.
And there's like all these differentbooks everywhere and like musical

(07:54):
instruments on the walls, likekind of like what my life is now.
It was just like, what is going on?
And, uh, in that I got to learn abouttraditional Chinese medicine and
Ayurveda and meditation and indigenous,like Native American, uh, philosophies
and all these different perspectives.
Uh, so I was just like, okay,we're out here burning out.

(08:15):
And then before it was called cancelculture, just canceling each other.
And like, we're talking about creatingthis better healing, loving world,
but like, we are not able to, we don'thave the tools and the skills and the
capacity a lot of the time to embody that.
And, um, over here, there's this likewhole world of healing happening, but
it's like mostly white people or it's likesuper ungrounded in like social change

(08:37):
and these kinds of spiritual bypass.
And meanwhile, I'm an artist, you know,and I'm in all these bands and it's kind
of the same thing as activist spaceswhere it's like a lot of substances, a
lot of like staying up late and goinghard, not really taking care of yourself.
You know, and, um, all of that made meand a few of my friends feel like we

(08:58):
need to bring these things together.
We need to bridge the creative, thearts, the activism and social change
and the healing and the mindfulnessand the self growth, self development.
So, um, Holistic Underground was born.
And, uh, has taken many twists andturns, uh, since then, but really
that common thread is how do we bridgethese three kind of spaces of change?

(09:22):
Because really those are the three placesin my mind, you know, there's social
change, which is focusing on the structureand the economics and the social stuff.
There's the arts, which is really wherecultural change comes from, right?
And then healing and wellnessand personal development.
And that's like where we workon ourselves, and, um, each

(09:44):
of them has a part of thepuzzle, but none of them alone.
So Holistic Underground, we'reholistic, bringing it all together.
Underground, kind of likeUnderground Railroad.
Like.
You know, moving from movementto movement, trying to like bring
people over to the, to the nextway of thinking about things.
So that's kind of theorigin story of that.

Word.
Yeah, I'm curious to build on this.
Um, when you're bringing that mixof levity and truth telling to DEI,
justice work, um, I'm curious ifthere's like a spiritual orientation
or a mindset, something that you'regrounding yourself in, that allows

(10:25):
you to hold both when you're coachingor when you're doing the other, you
know, training, consulting work.
I'm curious if you canshare a bit more about that.

Yeah.
One of the things that blew my mind themost when I was first having my awakening,
I had my political awakening youngbecause both of my parents were activists.
I was studying Chinese medicine,traditional Chinese medicine,
and I was reading this bookcalled Between Heaven and Earth.
And it was these, like, twoAmericans who went there.
They were some of the first peopleto study Chinese medicine in China.

(10:58):
And they talked about the metaphorof, um, healing as like a mechanic
and healing as a gardener.
And so the Western medicine approachis kind of like, all right, you know,
you got the spinal column and thepelvic floor and the walls of the
linings, you know, the intestines andall, everything's like a structure.
It's like a building and it's like,Oh, your kidney is not working.

(11:19):
Let's cut it out.
Put in a new one.
Oh, like this appendix.
You don't really need that.
Just cut it out.
Like, oh, you're missing this thing,let's just give you like a chemical like
pill that's going to like replace that.
It's very much likeyou're like a broken car.
What can we replace?
What oils do we need to put inside?
You know, and now youcan keep you running.
And also like you don't take your carinto the mechanic until it's broken.

(11:43):
And you don't go in to see thedoctor until you have some kind
of symptoms until you're sick.
So it's not really health care.
It's like sick care.
Whereas the gardener, you know,as a gardener, you're always
looking at like, what can I doto help this garden flourish?
You don't wait until theplant is dying to water it.
You you're just caring for it on aregular basis and you're, you're always

(12:04):
supporting it to be more resilient.
So I really realized how ourmovements have that same, you know,
issue of viewing it as broken,what's broken, how do I fix it?
You know, this very surgical kindof, you know, um, unnatural in
that it is not reflecting nature.
And, um, yeah, kind of unkind, youknow, it's like no body, no plant,

(12:29):
no system wants to be treatedlike a machine because it's not.
So when it comes to justice work,it's like, I'm, I'm very much
like by any means necessary.
And as far as I can tell, like themeans that makes the most sense
is love, like is, is compassionis like, that just works better.
Right.

(12:49):
So it's, it's when people are inthat intersection of speaking the
truth to power, But also beinggrounded in love that they're
the most dangerous to the system.
And, um, Yeah.
we're never going to outweapon the weapon people.
We're never going to outhate the hate people.
We're never going to out, you know, um,dehumanize the dehumanized, you know.

(13:10):
That's their expertise.
It's like an old sink to their leveland then get beaten by experience.
So, yeah, Those are some ofthe big influences there.
And it's just more fun for me.
Like I can stay in it.
You know, I have so many friends whoare just like in that like energy and
like they burn out and then they're outand then they're back and you know, so

Yeah, yeah, so what I'm hearing in that
is grounded in love, right?
That there's

love and liberation,

Love and liberation.

love and liberation.
That's the name of our partyin the forest, by the way.
I'll come through.
Um,

That's right, that's right.
So that's how, that's um, part of whatyou're holding when you're in a moment
where you're Coaching somebody, right?
And there's some like realtalk that needs to be had.
There's this like love andliberation being held side by side.

Yeah.
Exactly.
Because it's like, okay.
This person is, like, I love thisperson as a fellow human, and they
are suffering due to this untruththat they are holding as true.
For example, this untruth called, wecan continue on, uh, not addressing
this and everything is going to be fine.

(14:21):
Or, you know, our ancestral, youknow, trauma is not at play here.
Or we, there's nothing to seehere, nothing to look at, just
keep going business as usual.
That's creating suffering for you.
And it's, it's hindering your abilityto be liberated both internally,
personally, spiritually, right?
Because the truth willset you free, right?
But let me help you liberate, like,liberate yourself from this lie, you

(14:43):
know, as, as someone who loves you, youknow, as, as a beloved, you know, fellow
human, rather than there's somethingwrong with you, you're broken and I
need to fix you, you know, cause weall know how people respond to that.
Well, at least I know howI respond to that, which is
like, back the F up, you know?

Yeah.
Cool.
So to take that a little further,There's the way I've seen you do
that in groups too, which I'm sure iscoming from a very the same underlying
orientation of love and liberation.
But I've seen you, you know, you'vefacilitated groups that I've been a
part of through looking at, , justice,looking at equity, looking at

(15:23):
diversity, looking at inclusion.
And it's almost always the casethat a group is gonna be at varying
different levels of development andunderstanding and political analysis and
internal work that they've done, to beavailable for a conversation like that.
So there's, there's always, you know,you and I have both been in many rooms
where there's some folks in the roomwho are really down for the cause

(15:43):
and really pushing and really wantto see more, um, move the group along
in the direction of more justice.
And there are folks in the roomwho haven't, don't know the, the
language, haven't looked at theanalysis of what's going on around
race, around gender, around sexuality.
And there's tension.

(16:03):
There's conflict often.
And what I've seen you do inparticular is like, have this way
of like widening the space includingthe whole group and it, it, it shows
up for me as Y'all, we got this.
No sweat.

(16:24):
No sweat.
I know you have a vision.
I know you, we got this.
You got this.
Don't worry about it.
Even when the whole room is like,you know, you can feel like kind of
everyone's sort of tilting sidewayslike we're going to lose our center.
Um, I'm curious to hearyou say more about that.
Like what's, what's,what's happening there?

(16:46):
How do you, I think mostpeople want that skill.
Coaches, facilitators want that skill.
What, how do you hold that?
How do you think about that in groups?

Yeah, you know, there's so many things happening
at the same time there.
Um, the first one is, Rarely does our bestthinking when it comes to complex problems
come from, like, fight or flight states.
So, you know, we both kind ofhave a similar training and
when it comes to coaching.
And one of the really important thingsI learned there is just about like the

(17:19):
neuroscience of stress and how whenwe're stressed out, we're worried,
we're concerned, you know, our body'strying to survive and take care of
itself because our ancestors didn'thave to deal with systemic change.
They just had to deal with likelions, tigers, and bears for like the
vast majority of humans evolution.
Uh, and then just like the lastcouple thousand years, just like boom,

(17:39):
boom, boom, boom, complexity, right?
Um, so I'm like, let's justnot be dysregulated 'cause
they're not gonna get anywhere.
Um, and also recognizing thatlike 99% of the time, at least one
or two or three or people in theroom are having a trauma response.
And so let's stay regulated.

(18:01):
It's like, here we are.
Like I believe in us.
If we're regulated and we areresourced, we can figure out the
best possible, whatever's availablein this room and in this moment.
So part of it is likekeeping the group regulated.
And part of that is one person in thisspace, like just reminding us like,
Hey, we're, there's no actual tiger,lion, bear, like reminding your body.

(18:23):
I'm not really even talking to you.
I'm talking to your body,your nervous system.
And I'm like, Hey, you're, whenI say we're fine, we got this.
What I'm saying is like,you're not going to die.
Like you're in yourbedroom on a zoom call.
Like you're not.
You know what I mean?
It's a future fear that,that energy is coming from.
That's one part.
The second thing is that, um, thisisn't actually a direct answer to your

(18:43):
question, but it's important to note inmy experience in working in movements,
it's not actually usually the least,um, woke, kind of least political
analysis, advanced person in the room.
That's like the problem, so to speak.
Um, cause often.
People who are really anti the thing,they're not usually in the room like

(19:05):
our society is so segregated thatlike, it's really rare that someone
who's like, no, actually, you know,I, I don't believe in saving children.
And like, I think thatclimate change is a hoax.
Like, those people exist for sure.
And I've often found that if they're inthe space that I'm leading, And that all

(19:28):
the like activist people are, they'relike actually trying to grant change,
like they're like kind of trying to,they're looking for leadership in a way.
It's usually individuals who are,um, operating primarily from trauma
response and from a good hearted place.
But it's like, they're kind of, um, Yeah.

(19:51):
just have a lot ofhealing they need to do.
And I've been there, you know.
And, um, are trying to like worktheir stuff out in activism.
Um, that's often where, like, Ifound the most issue, unfortunately.
And it's sometimes the most generous,like, down for the cause, giving people.
But, like, as soon as you, like,say something that triggers,

(20:14):
like, it's like, Oh, yeah, like,I smiled at a police officer.
Like, what the fuck?
Like, you smiled at a pig.
Like, oh, pigs must...
You know, just suddenly they gointo this, like, space, you know.
So, um, a lot of the time, I'm justtrying to keep everybody's nervous system
stable enough for us to cooperate andcome to, and like, have the conversation.

(20:35):
Like, that, we just need to complete,let's like, get somewhere together.
So, yeah, keep, bringlevity to move heavy things.
It's all heavy, like thematerial is heavy enough itself.
We don't need to make it harder.

I love that quote right there.
Bring levity to move heavy things.

There you go.

Put that on your

Make it a t-shirt.

Yeah, make it a t shirt.

Mm

Um, Yeah, so there's this piece about, it's like a tactical
piece of like, alright, how am Iholding the nervous system of everyone
in the room and maybe like almostthe collective nervous system of this
group gathered here today becausewe're regulating together, right?
And then...
I'm curious to hear a little bitmore about the vision piece of that,

(21:22):
at least when you've worked withme in a group setting like this
before, would it be accurate tosay that that's like an underlying
perspective you're taking on the group?
Like, this group cares about this, thisgroup has a, like, I felt that from you.

I think maybe this was you talk about the slingshot
It's like that tension, right?
It's like okay if someone thinks aboutwhat they want to think about where
they're at that natural tension likebrings any human being to like, okay.
What do I do?
Like I need to do like I want thatI don't want this help, right?
The truth is you want something?
Whether you want to wantit or not, you want it.

(21:57):
The truth is, this is the way things are.
Whether you want it to bethat way or not, it is.
So these are the two kindof things of the slingshot.
And you just send it off, you know?
Uh, so that's why I try tokeep people on that as well.
Keep them looking at, what's the vision?
What's the goal?
Right?
Eyes on the prize.
Ultimately, you know, this is something Ilearned from the Taoist philosophy, right?

(22:19):
As above, so below the fractalnature of things like, you know,
how are you going to love anybodyelse if you don't love yourself?
If we're not being the world wewant to see while working to create
the world we want to see, we'regoing to create the wrong world.
Yeah, so ultimately some aspect of thisbetter world is we're all more or less

(22:42):
getting along at some, like we can'tkeep warring, we can't keep hating each
other and we're never all going to agree.
Right.
And this is one of the thingsthat I see on the far left now is
this like, religious, evangelical,you know, everyone has to view
the world the way that I view it.
And it's like, it's just like, okay,now you're just preaching, you know,
it's like, Jesus Christ is our Lordand Savior, and if you don't believe

(23:05):
in that, like, how, you know, thatperson believes that they're right, and
so they're like, everyone has to, ifeveryone just believed in Jesus Christ,
then everything would be fine, right?
And it's like, well, if everyonejust believed that, you know, um,
this, like, gender is a spectrum,and that, uh, racial, what do they
call it, critical race theory, andlike, all these things that, like,
I believe in, personally, right?

(23:26):
But I'm not gonna say that everyonehas to believe it, cause as soon
as you're trying to force it onsomeone, they're gonna reject it.
Um, you know, one of the things that Ireally enjoyed and benefited from a lot
from, like, my spiritual teachers ishow they convert you through example.
Right?
Like, you're like, dang, you got some...

(23:48):
Really great sauce there.
It's like, what's that about?
Like, Oh, you know, I've been on thisjourney of just really, you know,
uh, deconstructing masculinity andlike finding who I really want to be.
And they're like, Oh, wow.
You saying gender is a spectrum.
Yeah, man.
Like for me, at least like, I didn'twant to have to be stuck in that box.
I wanted to be able to be fluid.
It's like, wow, maybe I want to be that.
Right.
And so work with the willing.

(24:10):
And so in every single one.
instance of the work, my mindset is thismoment, this interaction needs to look
the way, it needs to be grounded in thevalues of what we're trying to create.
And if we can't get there fast enoughin this meeting time, then we're
not ready to take the next step.

(24:32):
Like we need, we need to stay atthis step as long as it takes.
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, becauseotherwise we'll rush, we'll get, and then
the problem will bite us in the ass later.
Which, it still happens for me all thetime, like, you know, I learned from
trial and error, is how I learned.

Yeah, I love that.
It makes me think about the book, uh, Thisis an Uprising, talking about how, uh,
Gandhi thought about organizing, whichthe term was prefigurative organizing,
that we have to, at least a part ofwhat we're doing has to be living the
world now that we're trying to create.
And just like you're saying, if we'reIf we're not, right, if we're doing it

(25:10):
in a way that's burnt out, completelyexhausting ourselves at all costs, you
know, for the sake of the movement,uh, fully combative a hundred percent
of the time, right, othering, um,where's that gonna get us, right?
We, maybe we win a few policy victories,but in terms of our underlying,
like, cultural way of being withone another, we are, we're still

(25:36):
very far from the world we want.

And I'm so glad you brought the word organizing, because I really view
everything I do as community organizing,kind of, at the first and foremost.
And it's really hard, but it'slike, how am I going to be out here?
Like, Hey everyone, we deserve better.
Like the life doesn't have to be this way.
Like our children deserve better.
The future generations deserve better.
The earth deserves better.

(25:58):
So let's make a better world.
And I'm out here like burning outand not taking care of myself and not
practicing kindness and compassion.
It's like, and they need to stopothering us and they need to stop,
you know, telling us we're less than,and they need to like be nice to us.
And then I'm over here like, youknow, I'm going, well, this person
doesn't deserve human dignity.
You know, um, another big one islike as an abolitionist, right?

(26:23):
It's like, okay, if I believethat prisons are not working
to reduce harm in the world.
You can't be an abolitionistand not believe in redemption.
Because some of the people who are inprison did do bad things, did do things
that you would not accept, right?
But there has to be someredemption possible.

(26:43):
For those folks, there has to besome kind of like, okay, you're,
you have a mental illness.
You're unable to, you know, you're,you're not able to manage your trauma.
But like, what's the differencebetween someone who was a drug
dealer in their community?
Cause that's how they thoughtthey needed to survive.
And someone who was born into some likecrazy wealthy family and was like abused

(27:05):
by their parents and like had to fitinto this box of like being whatever,
insert fancy last name here, you know?
Both of them are, are kind of, weresick, grew up in a toxic environment,
and then are living out their trauma.
And so, there needs to be a redemption.
We can't kill all of them,and we can't kill all of them.

(27:25):
Like, they have to exist on theearth, so like, what are we gonna do?
Pragmatically, you know?
Um, we have to heal.
We have to be able to healourselves to heal others.
And it's, it's, it's,it's harrowing, you know?
It's like, oh my god, what?
I have to heal thesickest people on earth?
Like, what am I gonna do, you know?
But, um, the ingredients are simple.
It's community, it's music, it'scoming together, it's all of our

(27:47):
indigenous wisdom and practices.
It's, you know, good food and restand care and a little bit of love.
I'll say one last thing here isjust, I came to the United States
after spending my early teensin Dubai in the Middle East.
And, uh, yeah, I grew up in a veryanti-semitic country, homophobic--it was

(28:10):
illegal to be Jewish in that country.
It was illegal to be gay in that country.
Um, and, though like, it wasn't, it'snot like, you know, the most sexist,
it's not like Saudi Arabia level, likewomen can't drive or anything like that.
But, um, definitely like, very,very old school gender norms.

(28:32):
Um, so I come to the United States andI'm, I'm, I'm like super homophobic.
And sexist and antisemitic.
Like, I just didn'tknow any Jewish people.
I didn't know any gay people.
I had all these friends who arefrom Lebanon and Palestine, and
the only thing I know about Jewishpeople, basically, is like, that
Israel is bombing their familiesand killing their cousins, you know.
I'm like, oh, my friend's grandma wasdropped, they dropped a bomb on her.

(28:54):
That's, they're like, yeah, that'swhat Jewish people do, right?
That's how I grew up.
Um, and it was coming back here,my cousins, you know, loving
me out of it, you know, uh, andthen I was, I was in a beautiful
relationship with a Jewish woman.
She was like Sephardic and Ashkenazi,like mixed and, um, loving her, you

(29:17):
know, helped me heal the antisemitism.
And having friends, you know, Ihad all these Jewish friends that
are just like, yo, you're my homie.
You know, actually my, mycousin, who's like my sister,
she married a Jewish guy, right?
And like, it was a whole, my whole familyhad a whole healing around it, right?
And his as well.
So, yeah, love is really the onlything that can heal the hate.

(29:41):
Like, they tried, you know, youknow, drilling it out of me like,
this is wrong, and you know, butthat never, I was just defensive.
Like, That I just got betterat defending my beliefs.
So
Sorry y'all I think Ithink love is the only way.
Unfortunately, if you find anotherway if anyone, you know finds a
better more effective way than loveto heal backwards thinking just

(30:04):
send me a message and let's talk.

Yeah, that's, right that's right?
yeah, I appreciate thevulnerability there.
You know, I think that's one of thethings I've also learned is the way
in which we can use our own Like,where have I not been at my best?
Let me, like, bring myfull humanity forward.
I do that in coaching whenever I can.
Um, As an example of we're nottrying to win the woke game.

(30:33):
Yeah
Right?
And I'm not trying to hide thesethings that I used to believe.
Right?
Because now, in the moment you saythat, someone has an invitation to
say, Okay, right, my, uh, the guy who'shelping me learn about justice is,
oh, right, he's gone on a journey too.
Oh, okay, right.

(30:54):
Oh, I wonder if there's, I wonder ifthere's more for me to learn here.
Right?
There's an opening in that moment.

Yeah.
it's okay to admit that we'renot perfect, that we're human.
That's kind of the goal there,is like, demonstrating that.
And perfectionism is a traitof white supremacy, right?
That's like, this society tellingus that you have to be perfect.
Um, Puritanism, right, was kind ofrooted in that, and like, that's not
against Puritans as a religious group,but like, Um, there's this aspect of any

(31:24):
imperfection means that you're damned.
That I think really got into our societyand it's, it's so in our movements, right?

Yeah.

Um, oh, my friend has this one belief that's different than me and I
have to cancel them out of my life becausenow they're going to infect me, right?
Um, with their sin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, that exact theme, I know that shows
up for me personally too, uh,makes me think about belonging.
Like, I know, uh, I worked with a coachrecently and had this big insight around
belonging that was seeing how I'd beencaught in the, I'm a cis white dude,
I've got some projects I want to dorelated to social change work, and I

(32:07):
do not want to fuck it up, because if Ifuck it up, I'm going to get cancelled.
And so I'm sitting there and findingmyself holding back and holding back
and holding back and not bringingwhat I've got to bring forward.
And the, the coach I was working with,she said just one super simple thing.
She said, yeah, it sounds like you'rereally wanting to like protect and take

(32:33):
care of your belonging in these spaces.
And I immediately started crying.
And was just like, oh, God, noone's ever put it that way before.
Like, belonging's beenthis conceptual thing.
We talk about belong, othering,and belonging, you know.
At the moment, it was like, oh,right, yeah, my, like, I feel

(32:53):
like my belonging is at risk.
In that moment.
Whether or not it's true,but that's how it feels.

Thank you for sharing this story.
It's really, it's beautiful.

And so, yeah, it makes me curious.
I know a lot of what you do, all the workyou do, kind of comes back to belonging.
In, in one way or another,at least that's a big theme.
Um, yeah, curious what you,how you think about that.
Is there like a, a way that youground belonging and something
like, what that actually meansoutside of like a big concept?

(33:27):
Or how you approach maybe creatingbelonging, fostering belonging?

Again, it's kind of coming back to like evolutionary
psychology a little bit, like, ifyou didn't belong in the tribe, you
probably weren't going to survive.

That's right.

You know, there's no, there's no surviving in this world in isolation.
Even if all you do is eat otherthings, you need other things.
Like, there's no living creaturethat lives in true isolation.
So it makes sense why we are sotribal, you know, and so for like,

(34:01):
so afraid of challenging our group.
So I, I view belonging primarily aswe're able to like be ourselves without
needing to pretend wear a mask you canjust be yourself authentically and um and
kind of discover what that is cause wedon't actually rarely do we fully know

(34:23):
what that is and it's always changing.
But, um, the energy that youspend pretending to be someone
you're not, you can spend ondiscovering who you actually are.
Um, belonging is also about having aplace in the picture, in the, in the
project and the group, like, um, wheneverI talk about inclusion, I talk, I break

(34:45):
it down into belonging and purpose.

Hm.

Because, you know, I, I give this example a lot working with students
like, um, I do a lot of universitycommencement speeches and stuff like that.
And, um it's like if you go to a partyand you don't know anyone, you feel
super awkward, you don't belong, right?
And then someone's like,hey, can you help me?
Like make this salad?

(35:08):
Right?
Then you're like, okay, I have somethingto do, and you're not talking to that
person about salad and like suddenly, youknow, you have a purpose, you have a role.
And that actually is like the fastestway, like whenever I'm having an
event and people come early and theydon't know anyone and I see them
being awkward, I'm like, hey, canyou come help me wrap these cables?
Like, oh, can you actually like, Ijust start giving them things to do
and you just see them like brightenup, you know, it's like a job, like

(35:30):
something to do, a purpose, likemeaning, like reason to be here.
So how can we create so much belonging,such rich belonging, that there's room to
challenge each other without fearing thatwe're going to be kicked out of the group?
Like that's, I think, the bestrelationships I have where it's
like, Our relationship is too strongfor the truth to challenge it.

(35:53):
So the truth is not unsafe.

And that takes intentional investment in relationship, in
belonging, in purpose, each person having,you know, their connection to purpose,
to why they matter within the group.
Um...
Sometimes that happens very organically.
I know that's why I'm so invested inmovement work, is because the people

(36:18):
I organized with, led trainings with,did, um, movement work with, were
some of the people I felt the mostmattering, the most relationship with.

I actually think that a lot of the people that reason that people
keep going back to social activismwork, even though it's burning them
out is because of all the belongingand the experience there, right?
It's like, we're all a part ofthis thing that's bigger than us.
And, um, I think that honestly, like Ilove protesting as much as anyone, right?
Like I enjoy the feeling ofit, but you know, a lot, like.

(36:50):
Sometimes it's really good, but largelyit's, it's a galvanizing the movement.
It's like, it's for us to be togetherand feel like I'm not alone and
see, cause especially now the mediajust portrays what's happening.
You know, they're going, whateverchannel it's on is going to tell the
story in a completely different way.

Yeah.
I'm curious to add in tacticalsuggestions that coaches could use if we
were to get practical about some of this.
I'm thinking.
You know, maybe there's a few that youwant to add in here, but I'm thinking in
particular, I've heard you talk about, um,energetic cleansing when you're dealing
with really heavy topics like this.
Like, what can the coach or facilitator orpractitioner do to, like, kind of manage

(37:31):
their own energetic space while they'reworking with traumas that are in the
room, even if you're not a trauma healingpractitioner, there's traumas up, um,
while you're dealing with heavy topics.
Um, curious, yeah, what you'd sayabout the energetic cleansing and if
there's any other tactical, like whatcan people actually do to bring these
justice principles into their coaching?

The first thing that comes to mind is, um, developing a
relationship with your own spiritualityand particularly ancestors.
Cause look, spirituality just means.
That which is not material.
Anything that exists beyondthe material is spiritual.
Literally, right?
So, it doesn't need to be a religion,it doesn't need to be like, it's

(38:15):
not a white dude in the sky,it's not what I'm talking about.
You know, um, it's like, the deep why.
The deep, deep why.
You know, and the mystery, andthe questions, and the unknown.
And, um, so there's spirituality asfar as like what you believe in the
faith and like that's good and helpfulin a lot of ways, but then there's

(38:36):
spirituality is like the practices.
So whether that's meditation ordancing or singing or music or
whatever it is that helps youconnect and stay in that juicy space.
Um, so among the reason I say likeconnecting with your ancestors too is
because ultimately like we're dealingwith a It's a multigenerational challenge.

(39:00):
It's like rooted in ancestraltrauma and ancestral mistakes
and ancestral conflicts.
And it's the people who are goingto benefit from it are like we're
going to be their ancestors.
It's like descendants sevengenerations from now and more.
So relating in that sense of lineageand from there, exploring what are the

(39:20):
practices that my ancestors used totake care of themselves energetically?
So finding the lineages that you feelconnection with and being in right
relationship with them is key becauseyou know, these plants that we use for
energetic clearing, for example, right?

(39:41):
Like I talk a lot about, um,Clearing, but also shielding.
I learned this from one ofmy teachers, April King.
So you want to like cleanse the gunkout, but you also want to think about
what are the things that give you asense of shielding and protection.
So that you can enter into spaces.
And I say shield, not armorbecause armor, it's like a shield.

(40:02):
You can easily put up and down armor.
It's like, you're wearing it.
And like you're now you'renot sensitive anymore.
You can't, and you hugsomeone, you hurt them.
It's very heavy.
So, um, really thinking of it asshielding rather than arm armoring.
And, um, for me, you know, every morningI use frankincense and myrrh because
those are plants that my ancestors used.

(40:24):
Um, it's also anyone who'sCatholic, anyone's from East
Africa, um, a lot of other partsof Africa, those are very common.
Um, some people use rosemaryas a shielder, as a protector.
I use sandalwood.
Cause that's what my ancestors used.
Um, you know, a lot of people saythat white sage is something not to
use too much because it's kind ofbeen over harvested, but they're,

(40:44):
you know, sweet grass, you know,if you're of European heritage.
But the point here isjust, um, you're doing it.
It's like hygiene.
It's like personal hygiene, right?
Like if I don't brush my teethand I go and kiss somebody, I'm
exposing them to like all kindsof bacteria and germs, right?
So if I'm a coach and I don't clear myenergy and I come in and bring people
into my energy or I'm a leader, right?

(41:06):
I'm now exposing them to things and inthe process of doing that, you develop
a sense of self attunement where you'rejust so much more aware of your own
energy field, what's in your energy,what needs, you know, and it helps
you take care of yourself better.
So that's one tactical thing.
yeah.
The other thing that comes to mind is,like, if I had to like assign a task to
all the coaches in the movement, I wouldsay one, help people find their niche.

(41:33):
Like if every single person found wherethey're, and this is, I call this the
purpose place compass, if people want totext me or email me for the tool, but...
what are my values?
What are the experiences andchallenges that have shaped me?
What are my natural borngifts and, and, and strengths?

(41:55):
And then what are the causes or issuesin the world that really light me
up for better and for worse, right?
And the intersection of thosethings, what you value, what you
just can't stand, what you, youknow, what you experience growing up.
This includes your race, youridentity, your intersections.
And then your, your skills, yournatural gifts and privileges.

(42:15):
Maybe it's things you were, you'veinherited, a language, wealth,
certain knowledge of how things work,a degree, that intersection, right?
If we could help everyonefind their niche.
The second is if we could help peoplenot burn out while they do what they do.
And third, if we can help them findthe balance between like enjoying

(42:37):
life and the material comforts andsafety, and then also being of service.
Um, I feel like there's a lot of promisein that area that, um, yeah, a lot
of us as coaches could explore what'smy way of helping people find that.

Yeah.
I love that a lot.
And, um, I think you're speaking topart of why this podcast and this
intersection of coaching and socialchange, personal transformation and
systemic transformation has so muchjuice for me is because I agree.
Like, there's so like, if we canall find our place within service.

(43:16):
If we can all find our place inservice to causes we care about,
there's, uh, it's just so much moreenergy that is available, right?
If we can show up fully to the thingswe care about in a way that does not
burn us out, and right, we're showingup out of like deep care instead of
out of obligation, then there's likea richness that shows up there because

(43:38):
it's like, right, I'm fully in this.
I'm fully alive.
I'm bringing, um, all of my, like, bestqualities forward, more often than not.
And, uh, right, it's like the netpool of energy that is then being put
towards transforming the world is,like, full and rich and available.

Right.
And, and and we enjoyit and we keep going.
right.
It's like, that's the otherthing is like, you got it.
You're going to be in this for decades.
Decades.
Like, you gotta, you gotta be sustainable.
Like, you know, there's so many peopleI know, you know, in my family who were
like such activists as young people.
And they're like, now they're just like,I just got to get my family to survive.
And it's cause like, yeah,it, they were never supported

(44:22):
to find a way to keep going.
You know, it's like either, oreither I'm in or I'm out, you know?

And I think there's many ways to do that.
And coaching has this obvious wealth oftools and techniques and practice around
how do we help people find purpose?
How do we help people do it in asustainable way and not burn out?
How do we, um, you know, get,help them be in relationship,
use their support networks?

Yeah.

Well, um, as we draw to a close here, the name of
the podcast is Wider Roots and a nodtoward redwood trees and the way they

Yeah, I knew it.
I was like, you are a redwoodtree type of guy, man.
just the redwood tree guy.

And uh, you know, it's a nod towards nourishment.
It's a nod towards interconnectedness.
And um, so I'd love to hearwhat's been nourishing you.
Like, are there sources of nourishment?
Maybe it's a book, maybe it'spoem, maybe it's, um, music.
Um, that's been like your sourceof nourishment lately that you

(45:28):
might want to recommend to folks.

Oh I got you.
Right now.
Three stacks.
André 3000 just dropped an albumof like healing flute music.
Fire.
Fire.
So good.
Like I just been having it on repeat.
Um, so that's one.
I have a practice of digital detox,and just not being plugged in as much,

(45:52):
you know, it's a form of nourishment.
It's like being bored.
I like to try to force myself to bebored, like an hour a day every week.
Oh, there's a podcast calledthe Emerald that's really
been lighting me up recently.
Um, and I really love the perspectivesthat, uh, he brings like the mythic.
And, um, Khalil Gibran's, uh, The Prophet.

Oh, so good.
Yeah.
I love the Emerald.
I've only listened to a few episodesof it, but it's, uh, it's this mix of.
Yeah, like read in this poetic,like, it's almost like I'm in
a trance while listening tothe podcast and there's music.

It's like a spell.
Yeah.
It's just like a...

yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's very cool.
It's different than anythingelse I've encountered.

And you know, one last thing I'll just say too is like,
if people wanna check out my music,

I was just gonna that's the next question.

Yeah.
Hey man, I'm, I'm, a promote myself.
You don't even gotta go.
Where can they find me?

Yeah, where can folks connect with you, uh, for the
JEDI stuff and then also would loveto hear about the music too, where
can, what's happening on the musicfront, where can folks find you there?

Yeah.
MazinJamal.com Um, so find, youknow, slash music, but you can go
and try to travel to the music page.
I DJ, I do live music.
I do a lot of veryinteractive performance.
So, um, I, uh, ministerweddings to license officiant.
So happy to, to helpyou with those things.

(47:14):
You know, I'll DJ, I'll minister wedding.
I'll help you and your partnerthrough like, I'll coach y'all through
like, you know, what are, what'sour vision for our partnership.
I've been doing that for people.
It's just so fun.
Around JEDI stuff, holisticunderground.
org, and then there's a buttoncalled consulting, and that's
like the little consulting part.

Yeah.

If you have a project where it is, um, you know, a social
good project, it's around movement work,it's around healing, social change,
community building, uh, health equity.
Uh, we have a fiscal sponsorthat is, um, by and for, uh, you
know, changemakers, BIPOC led.
BIPOC centered, but um,allies welcome as well.
So, that's the place where, we do itvery differently than everyone else.

(47:53):
It's like, we basically willhandle all the money stuff for you.
We handle all the, you know, compliance.
You don't need to haveyour own non profit.
We actually provide coachingand training and all these
other things for people as well.
Um, and yeah, you canfind it all over there.
Oh, one last thing, isuh, I do throw events.
So, if you check out EmbraceCommunity.coYou can also check out, um, this

(48:16):
is like a BIPOC-centered communityaround spiritual innovation.
So people who want to check thatout, they're welcome to take a peep.

And most of the in person stuff is, uh, in the Bay
Area,

California.
yeah, Oaktown.
Yeah.

Mazin, thank you, buddy.
Thanks for being here.
This has been such anenergizing conversation for me.
So, so grateful for

I'm ready to go I'd rather take the day on, you know?
I'm just like, Let's go heal the world!

Woo!

Make it a better place.
For you and for me andthe entire human race.
There are people dying,caring enough for the living.
Make a better place for you and for me.
All right, that's all.

That's right.
That's the way to end this podcast.
I love you so much.
So grateful for you.
Glad you're in my life.
Thanks for being here and uh, rock on.

Rock on brother.
Peace.

Thank you so much for listening.
Check out the show notes for links tothe resources that Mazin mentioned and
other ways that you can connect with him.
Episode three comes out in twoweeks with anti-racist facilitator
and somatic coach Dara Silverman.

Dara Silverman (49:37):
It feels so special when we get to be with other coaches
who are politicized of like, Oh, I getto actually like be in these questions
about like, what are the contradictionsthat I'm feeling in this moment?
Working with clients whodon't share my politics.
What does it mean to like bewith a white person when they say
something racist in a session?

So make sure you subscribe in your podcast app of
choice so that you can catch thatepisode and all the future ones.
And if you'd like to tap intothe resources I've collected at
this intersection of personaland systemic transformation, you
can head over to WiderRoots.comto sign up for the newsletter.
If you have any ideas for topics you'dlike us to cover on the show, you can

(50:22):
email me at podcast@widerroots.com.
And you can follow the podcaston Instagram at wider roots pod.
Thanks to Wildchoir for thetheme music for this show, you're
currently listening to their song,Remember Me, which will play us out.
And a fun little piece of triviais that Mazin was actually

(50:44):
in Wildchoir for a long time.
So enjoy this track.
See ya next time.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Making space for imperfection in activist spaces (w/ Mazin Jamal)