The inseparable link between inner work and outer change (w/ Staci Haines)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Staci Haines (00:00):
There's no such thing as personal change
outside of a social context.
You actually can't separate aperson from our social context.
And that is just like, duh, how didthey ever think we could do that?
And that social context is,based on power over.
And what we're committed to at whateverlevel we're working is transforming

(00:21):
all of that to a social and economicconditions that are based on power
with each other, but also the planet.

Jeremy Blanchard (00:32):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast, a show about how
we can use the power of coaching andpersonal transformation to help create
the world we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard.
And today's episode is with Staci Haines.
She's someone I admire deeplyand I've been looking forward to
having her as a guest on this show.

(00:53):
Since I first had theidea for this project.
She's been in this work ofpoliticized, somatics and trauma
healing and transformativejustice for over three decades.
She co-founded generative somatics.
She's a senior teacher at the StrozziInstitute and in 2019, she published
her book, The Politics of Trauma.
And part of the reason why I find herteaching so powerful is because of her

(01:17):
commitment to really bringing together.
Personal transformation andstructural social transformation.
She really holds it in this way thatyou cannot have one without the other.
And in this conversation, we got toexplore some really powerful questions.
Like.
How do we hold conversations aroundPalestine and Gaza with our clients?

(01:38):
And how can we make sure transformationalmodels don't just end up getting used
to help people tolerate injustice andbecome more passive amidst capitalism.
And finally, we talked about thedifference between coaching and
therapy, which comes up all the time.
And how do we identify what's our realmof competency and stay within that.

(01:59):
I loved this conversation and similarto episode five with Kazu Haga, I
can tell that it's one, I'm going tocome back to over and over again, as
I integrate some of the questions andthe topics that we were exploring.
And as you're listening, if there'ssomething that you hear that really
speaks to your heart, I invite you totake a minute to share this episode with

(02:21):
a friend or a coach or a practitioner ora leader in your life who might appreciate
getting to listen to it as well.
It's what really helps this podcast grow.
And if you're new here, take a minuteto subscribe in your podcast app so
that you can catch the future episodes.
All right.
Let's dive in.

(02:44):
Hi, Staci.
Thanks so much for being here.

Yeah, delighted to be here with you.
Thank you for having me.

Yeah.
We first met last year whenyou were leading the Embodied
Transformation for Changemakerscourse with the Strozzi Institute.
And, that was right around the time Iwas starting to dream up this podcast.

I remember.
Congratulations.

Thank you.
You were one of the first people thatI dreamed of having on the podcast.
You have a multi decade commitmentto this intersection of personal
transformation and systemic transformationand, dismantling systems of oppression.
So just very excited tohave your wisdom here.

I'm happy to be here.
It's nice to have more and more of uspassionate about the intersection and
experimenting at the intersection.
Yeah.

Yeah, and you know, we've got your book, The
Politics of Trauma, as one ofthe guides at this intersection.
And you recently had your Politics ofTrauma course, which I got to be in, in
which you had 500, 600 more people in?

We capped it at 500.

Yeah.
And so that's heartening too, tosee, oh wow, there's so many who
want to be this intersection.
Very grateful for that.
One of the things I want to startwith is actually some gratitude for
you for something that, you probablydon't know yet, which is, that you
helped inform the name of this podcast.
Wider Roots, I knew what the premiseof the show was, and I was trying to
come up with a good name, and I pickedup Emergent Strategy from Adrienne Marie

(04:08):
Brown, and I picked up Radical Dharmafrom angel Kyodo williams, and I picked
up your book, and I was flipping through,and I'll read the quote that inspired it
and this will lead into a question, too.
You were talking about your firsttime going to, a Strozzi Institute
course and learning somatics there.

The quote is, (04:26):
"While people were empowered in their empathy, longings,
and to take bold new actions, theconversation of collective accountability
and collective action was not there.
Individual change was the ground.
And even as people felt desire tomake a difference for others, even
support social change, the analysisof broader systems was absent and the

(04:50):
support defaulted to individualismand unreflected upon privilege."
to that word broader systems andthe name "Wider Roots" just popped
into my head and I was like,

huh

that's a good name.

That's a good name.
Let's do that.

Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And, yeah, it makes me curious about that.
That is such a formative moment inyour entry into transformational
work and at least the personaltransformation side of things.
So i'm curious if you could sharemore like what was that origin
story like of how you got intothe personal transformation side?

Mm It was before Somatics.

Oh, yeah, tell me.

I think I got into both social and personal transformation
out of my lived experience, like manyof us, I think, even as a kid, I was
very, very interested in fairness,which is the only word I had.
I didn't grow up in a family that waspoliticized or even read that much.
But I was really like, something isout of balance, out of harmony, unfair.

(05:50):
So the fairness was so important.
And then, watching the chaos in myown household, I was like, there
has to be a different way, therehas to be a better way than this.
And, the first thing that I kindof stumbled my way into was neuro
linguistic programming or NLP.
Coaching wasn't a wordthen, like it is now.

(06:11):
We might call it a coach training then,but it was the NLP practitioner training.
And, I helped actuallyorganize and run NLP Austin.
It's so funny for me to think abouthow many trainings I've helped to
organize in my life at this point.
I'm like, wow, okay.
Started early and I'm still doing it.
But one of the things I actuallyliked about NLP is that people

(06:31):
asked, what do you want?
The first question also wasn'twasn't what's wrong with you.
And it's what I love about somatics orembodied transformation, it's like, what
is your longing and how do we answer thatquestion, not from the inherited beliefs,
of family, community, or society.
It's like, Oh, I want a bigger truck.
Do you know what I mean?
Or I want more stuff, but ratherfeeling deeply into an older

(06:56):
wisdom inside of us as, to longing.
And then really I kept seeking healingcause I was raised in a household
where there was a lot of domesticviolence in a community where there
was a lot of violence between folks,a white working class community, and
I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse.
And it was very clear in my twenties, Ineed to crawl my way to some healing or

(07:17):
this is not going to go well, includingdo I really want to be here and stay here?
So yeah, did some therapy.
I have a lot of funny stories about goingto my college's psych services and how
utterly unpoliticized and unknowledgeable.
You know, it was the first placeI was told, Oh, child sexual

(07:40):
abuse hardly happens to anyone.
It's really rare.
and if you want a group, you'regoing to have to go organize a group
by yourself and then come let usknow once there's enough people.
Welcome to the eighties.
Anyway.
Healing really out ofsurvival and out of longing.
Yeah, and then I found my way tosomatics, which I felt so grateful
for because it blew my mind.

(08:01):
I don't think I would have pursuedhealing to the depth that I did
without having been politicized.
And I know it happens indifferent ways for all of us.
But the politicization that happenedfor me, Starting somewhat in high
school, especially around Indigenousrights and being from Colorado, and the

(08:21):
very large Indigenous presence there.
And then into college and going, ohwait, there's names for things that are
happening to me, to my people, and topeoples that I know, see, and care about.
My empathy.
isn't off.
My empathy is actuallyresonant with what's going on.
I'm not weird and whack.

(08:44):
I mean, I might be, but I'm not, I'm off.
I'm right.
But finding that language andreally, I landed right in the throes
of third wave feminist theorists.
And I'm ever grateful.
You know, Chandra Mohanty, AudreLorde, bell hooks, Mary Beth
Krauss, Patricia Hill Collins.
I'm just so thankful forwhat I got to learn and who

(09:05):
I got to learn from and with.
All of that is what actuallygave me the courage to even heal.
And then getting active, becoming acampus organizer and a campus activist.
All of that let me go, there's enoughwe that I can go face a level of
devastation personally that I don't knowif I'm going to live through or not.

Hmm.

So to me, they were just inseparable in my
own actual lived experience.
And the politics and the activismand the learning movement history.
I was like, Oh man, I have as muchchoice freedom capacity as I have today
because of the millions of people whoorganized for liberation before me.

(09:48):
And I saw myself as a link in a very lifeaffirming chain toward the future that
somehow finding and placing myself theregave me a lot of courage in many, many
different places, including to do my ownhealing and my own, transformation work.
So I want to keep putting that contexton, especially given what we're

(10:10):
talking about, because it does makeme wonder if we all asked ourselves
that question, why did I heal?
Why did I get into organizing?
Why did I want to be a coach?
What is my draw?
I wonder if our actual draw is moreintersected between healing and structural
change than the stories that get told.

There's so much aliveness in what you're talking about.
And I feel that connectionto something greater.
I'm sure some people find that throughlike a direct spiritual path, right?
They needed to do the journey of healing.
They needed a connectionto something greater.
Maybe that was their spiritual connection.
And perhaps that's part of your storytoo, but at least one part of what
you're describing that I really admireis that connectedness to history and

(10:54):
to, our agency, collectively, tomake a difference toward justice and
liberation, it sounds like what I hearyou saying is, like, oh, I'm not only
resourced more because of my connectionto this, but I also, have a purpose
connection, like, Oh, there's somethingbigger that I could contribute to.
Is that how it lived for you?
Or is there any, adifferent way you'd put it?

Most definitely, you know, I'm such a viscerally guided person.
Like people talk about their inspirationsand intuitions coming in different ways.
And mine is such a deep feeling sensethat it was both like, Oh my gosh,
people just helped me name my own life.
And my own lived experiences.
And that is so deeply settling.

(11:37):
And look at all those people who caredenough before us that actually have us be
more liberated than we would have been.
And then to me, just that felt senseof like, of course, that is what I want
to spend my life, my love, my energytoward is more love and liberation for

(11:57):
all of us, more equity for all of us.
Yeah.
So we could say purpose for sure.
And it just felt like it, I'm not, Idon't know what metaphor to use, but
there was already this river of collectiveaction, love liberation happening.
And I found my way to it.
It felt so bouying and enlivening andsad and devastating, but fundamentally

(12:20):
empowering and lifting in that way, thathas seemed to sustain for many decades.
you know, different versions,it looks different ways.
There's different lessons at differentpoints, but, I feel so deep and grateful.

Yeah.
And then that led you to somatics asa like vehicle for some of that work.

And who, knew, that was going to be it.
So in my 20s, I already moved tothe Bay, cause the Bay seemed to
be all about healing and politics.
So I might as well come here, right?
That's what

what brought me here too.

Yep
My buddy's car and 300 dollars.
That's how I got here.
It was a friend of mine whointroduced me to somatics.
And the first thing I did wassee a somatics practitioner.
And, I was like, what theheck is happening to me?
I'd been to some talk therapy.
Again, it was really focusedaround my trauma healing.
And I got on that tableof somatic body work.

(13:11):
And it was like, things werefalling out of my body that my,
conscious mind didn't even know.
My conscious mind would be thelast one to recognize and learn.
And then it would show up in my life.
I was more free or I was more capableor I was not, triggered or history
wasn't evoked in the same way.

(13:33):
So that blew my mind.
And then I was like, wheredid you learn how to do this?
And it was Lomi School, whichthen became Strozzi Institute.
And, you know, back in the day, the onlyprogram you could get into was 36 days.
It wasn't like four dayhere and a two day there.
It was like, if you're going to learnhow to do it, get in and get on path.
And I actually hope we go back to that.

(13:54):
I know it's not accessible for everyone.
I love that we have our onlineworld to create more accessibility.
But when I think about the levelof numbing, the level of trauma
and intergenerational traumacaused racial capitalism, caused by
patriarchy, caused by neoliberalism,it's just so overwhelming.
At this point, I think it takes us aboutsix days of collective work, live together

(14:19):
to get anywhere near back to our bodies.
But I joined Lomi school and I tellthis story sometimes, but I was stunned
at what was happening inside of me.
We were asked to do two hours ofmeditation a day for the entire year.
So that was like a dose intomeditation practice to do
other somatic practices daily.

(14:40):
And then we were togetherat least three days a month.
But things kept falling off of meand things came alive in me and
the teachers, Robert and Richard,gave me somatic assessments and I
was like, how did they see that?
It was so fascinating to me.
I'm like, this is magic.
Magic is happening.
And then of course, what I got to learnin somatics is magic is learnable.

(15:02):
It's learnable.
It's just a change in paradigm andperception and perceiving things that
we got taught to stop perceiving.
There was a, man in the course, kindof older, white, hetero, ran his own
business, but not like a tech firmbusiness, like, materials and supplies.
And he was a person I'm like,this is not going to work on him.
There is no way thisperson is going to change.

(15:26):
And he took a little longer, but bythe end of that program, his wife
and five of his employees showedup at our celebration at the end.
And basically his wife was in tearswith who he became inside of their
marriage and who he became as a bossthrough doing his work at this depth.
And I saw things come out of him that Iwas like, oh right, everyone has a story.

(15:50):
I can have all my assessments abouta lot of things, but everyone has
a story and everyone was shaped.
And it just humbled me and it taughtme a level of compassion that I forget
and remember over and over again.
But after that year, I was like, no way,this is incredible I'm going to stay in.
And by the, my second year of training,which was maybe just 16 days that

(16:10):
year, I knew movement needed it.
And I'd already foundedGeneration Five, right?
Whose mission is to end the sexual abuseof children within five generations
through transformative justice.
And I'm like the level of healing neededand the level of embodied capacity
to practice transformative justice.
We need somatics.
So that became my first movementplace to start experimenting with

(16:33):
integrating somatics into our work.

I love that.
I feel there's so much value in us sharingthese stories about how we find this
intersection of personal and systemic.
Because, yeah, for meit brings it to life.
I was like, oh right, that'sthe direction, that was the
possibility that rose up in you.
That had you see.
Like, oh, I want tobring these two together.
And I can relate to that in myown journey, where discovered

(16:57):
personal transformation work.
It was like, oh, all ofmy organizer friends.

I know.

need this.
We so need this.
We care so much and we are sodriving ourselves totally into the
ground because we care so much.

Exactly.
And there's a certainstyle of survival strategy.
And, I also feel like, and I saythis often, but I feel like those
of us who are working for structuralchange have the hardest job.
It is really complex.
We're trying to imagine and invent worldswhile we're shaped by an in this one.
It is a lot.

(17:30):
It takes an incredible amount ofcreativity, smarts, relationship, and I
want us to have the best transformationaltools in us, with us, between us, because
what we're up to is so powerful Soit's also why I want very politicized,
high quality somatics accessible andavailable inside of our movements,

(17:55):
so it supports what we're up to.

Yeah.
Amen.
I know for me, my heart is breakingabout Gaza every day and I can't do
an episode of this podcast without,bringing it forward and seeing
like, we're living through an activegenocide and it is, uncomprehendable.
And I think there's so much we couldtalk about the work of healers, of

(18:20):
coaches, of like movement supportersin a moment where movement is,
active at its highest levels, right?
There's this.
We need all hands on deck moment, andtherefore we need all of our supporters
on deck too, to engage this, so.
Yeah, there's a few things we couldtalk about but one is like, I know
I've gone through so many waves ofnumbness and, agony and feeling empowered

(18:46):
and feeling like I really have mysense of agency with me and I may go
through those waves in a single day.
First I'm just curious, like,where are you, like, how are
you holding this in this moment?
Which phases are you in?

Horror,

Yeah.

Pain.

Yeah,

But one thing that I always want to remember, and I know
you know, but I just, feel likewe need to keep saying it is this
genocide has been going on a long time.
Like we are 75 years in almost a hundredyears into the colonization of Palestine.
And, a strategic Zionist agenda to alsoengage our country and other superpowers

(19:24):
to support and fund, which we are.
I'm just like, I don't know how muchof a difference this makes, but maybe
it just makes, helps me feel better.
But I call the white house everyweek on their comment line,
I'm like, what are you doing?
Stop.
I'm devastated.
I'm enraged.
I feel deeply loving and honoring.

(19:46):
I feel helpless.
I keep asking myself what'smy best and right role.
And how do I do that well?
I've also really committedto having the conversations.
Honestly, deeply, openly,lovingly with the other folks
who are like, it's complicated.

(20:07):
I can't really, I thinknaming a genocide is too much.
And you know what?
I'm like, no, part of my rolebeing who I am is, let me have that
conversation incredibly loving way.
Loving, curious.
And I've had many, many of thosesince October of last year.
And I'm good with that.
That's part of my role.
It's like how to hold a non polarizingspace, because so much is at stake.

(20:31):
And I think polarization, wekeep learning, doesn't work
So thank you for bringing itup, I'm really glad you did.
In November is I woke up in the middleof the night, I, dream a lot and I talk
in my sleep sometimes, but I was sittingup in bed and I was yelling, stop.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
You know,
So that's how I am.
And mostly I'm like, how are Palestinians?

(20:53):
How are Palestinians?
How are Palestinians?
And then how do we orient around,stopping this, living through it and
sustaining and, having Palestinianpeoples have long lives and long
culture and many more generationsto come in different conditions.

Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah, I think about.
So much of your work is about trauma,individual, collective, how it moves
through collective, what are thesystemic conditions that give rise to it.
This is similar to what we sawin 2020 with Black Lives Matter.
Suddenly it was in our collectiveconsciousness, something that has

(21:31):
been there for hundreds of years.
And we've got a similar situation herewhere, okay, this issue, this tragedy
is in the spotlight and it is gettingthe most attention, at least in the U.
S., that it's ever gotten.
So I'm just curious, what from your traumaand somatics work do you look to in
a moment like this, of how to hold andhow to show up, or how we can show up?

I think there's any tidy answer.
We are a collective of organic changingcreatures who are really wired around
safety, belonging, and dignity.
And trauma profoundly impacts those.
And obviously people are being,murdered and tortured, at the scale
we're talking about right now.

(22:15):
To me, I guess the question I askmyself, and this is maybe what I can
offer as we sort through this together,is How can I be connected, centered,
grounded with other people enoughto let myself feel the devastation?
Because, of course, all of oursystems want to shut down this level
of devastation and not feel it, notface it, or only face it, or right,

(22:39):
whatever our survival strategiesare, we have different ones.
And then what we start to dois making each other wrong.
There's just a cascade of thoseparticular survival strategies.
So, I keep going, okay, how do I comeback into me with others enough to feel?
And then to, in a resourced way, be ableto go, what's the next right action?

(23:02):
What can I do in myparticular role or location?
So it isn't like I'm going to feel badfor two seconds and then run away again.
It's like resourcing ourselvesand each other to try to stay in
the ongoing questions and actions.
And then back to questionsso we don't get stuck.
Part of our survival strategies is weget fixed and brittle into a certain way.

(23:23):
And then inside of that ouroptions, responsiveness, capacity
to, change becomes more brittle.
So those are the, some of the thingsI'm trying to track for myself
and the people that I'm with andin the work that I do right now.
Yeah.
Does any of that resonate for you?

Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially in a moment where there's somuch to feel, there's so much heartache,
there's so much agony, and collectivegrieving and pain that's happening,
I really resonate with the part abouthow do we stay creative in that?
Like, it's a moment, like so manymoments right now, that require

(24:03):
our full creativity to be online,our full capacity for connection.
And, it is so easy, and I know weall, go here often, it is so easy
to get into full crisis responsemode in a way that shuts us down.
Yeah, I'm really resonating with that.
Okay, what can we do to groundresource and show up to the crisis

(24:27):
with our full capacities, our fullcreativity, our full brilliance?

Exactly.
Or at least like 70% of it.
Or,

yeah.
I'll take 50% most days,

Yeah

Yeah,

And also that lets us keep remembering it's like in
this, who am I paying attention to?
Like I'm on a, this verybeautiful text thread from a
man in Gaza, a signal thread.
Saying here's what it's like for me,here's what it's like for us here Do you
know what I mean to just be like, okayall the things we know and are so hard to
do When we are caught either in survivalor reactivity or you know working 20

(25:07):
hours a day to organize the next action.
Thank you all who are doing that.
And thank you to everyone who'sshowing up and you know putting
the pressure on in the ways that wecan from our seats, which is vital.
I'm hoping this is a pivot inthe international positioning.
That's what I hope it is.
Me and many look at South Africa.
It's like, when was that moment whenit was like, okay, the international

(25:30):
pivot happened and then pressurecould be applied in a very different
way for a different future.

Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know how many.
folks you're working with one onone doing somatics work with these
days, but I'm curious, how are theseconversations going with clients or
with the people you're working with?
What do you see showingup right now around

Gaza?
So I keep a very small practicemostly of folks who are in, pretty
hefty leadership and movement.
And then obviously in the online programs,this conversation comes up and we have
one on ones with people out of that.
And then in rooms, in groupsof people in rooms, comes up.
It's not like I need to initiate it.
It's in the air that we're breathing.

(26:12):
Sometimes it's grieving,sometimes it's rage.
Sometimes it's like, how do I leadmy organization inside of this?
And how do I work with and navigatewith my funders inside of this?
Like, sometimes it's more dancing,with the, other narratives
that we have been handed.

(26:33):
Inside of my coaching work, dependingwhether we're in person or over zoom,
I feel like it's really important tokeep pivoting between we're talking,
we're practicing, we're actuallymoving into concrete practice together.
There's different informationand different capacity building
that's happening in that.

(26:54):
When I can, and someone's in person,that's like, you know what, the
level of bigness that this is, let'sjust go on the summit on the table.
And do somatic body work.
That is, to me, the most efficientway overwhelming energy can move
through us and help us be at a morecentered, responsive or creative space.

(27:14):
But making sure, and I feel like thisfor all somatic coaches, practitioners,
whatever we want to call ourselves,especially in Zoom world, it is so
easy to be like, we're going to talkabout somatics, but that's what we're
going to do is we're going to talk.
Yeah.
and for sure bring our attentionto our somas and our sensations,
which is great, but get caught therebecause it's such a strong default.

(27:36):
And so that's one of thethings I make sure we don't
do is like, cool, that's good.
Now let's do something else.

Yeah.
There's a thread in here about,how do we resource ourselves to
do the most important structuralchange work that's happening.
Something you write about and talk abouta lot is this, how do we get out of
individualism in work for healing, right?
We see it so much everywhere thatthere's spiritual spaces, healing

(28:05):
spaces, coaching spaces that are gearedtowards your own well being and cool.
We did our work together.
That's all, you decide howyou want to apply that.
I talked about this with Dara Silverman onher episode that came out a few weeks ago
and yeah, I'm just curious, How do youhold these two where you see individualism

(28:25):
showing up in spaces for healing?

Part of why I started generative somatics is so that we could
purposely take a tool or a technologyor a very, very powerful embodied
methodology and very, very directlyserve people who've already chosen
into social and climate justice work.
And to me, it's really towhom are we bringing the work?

(28:49):
How are we bringing the work?
And, to me that makes all thedifference and we need both.
Like I don't want to dismissthe personal transformation.
I mean from my view, I need tokeep doing that until I die, right?
And then there's the big transformationand we'll see what happens, right?
But to me, I feel like, we experimentedwith so much at generative somatics

(29:09):
and I've been experimentingsince I've been gone and here's
a couple of, things I'm learning.
One is that collective practice reallyserves groups, and it's helpful for it to
be collective practice that's aligned withtheir purpose of their mission, right?
So if it's around sustaining a lot ofpressure, let's do practices that help

(29:29):
us sustain pressure together, right?
Or there's this whole practiceof collectively move the line.
We're from center, we move anotherline of people back, right?
There's ways to practice with thecollective that really serves the purpose.
One of the learnings to me fromthose years at GS is that when we
are in a movement organization anddrop into a level of what is more

(29:52):
healing work, it's in many waystoo complicated a space to do that.
When who's in the room havedifferent It's like, Oh, this
is my supervisor or supervisee.
This is someone I don't actuallychoose to be that vulnerable with.
And it is really one of the dances aroundcoaching and transformative leadership
development that I want to ask us tobe really in inquiry together about.

(30:16):
It's like it doesn't always work todrop deep healing into a collective
space that's about something else.
And things like projection transferenceand counter transference are real things.
Power and positionalpower are real things.
What people's roles are anddecision making power, those
are all really real things.
So I, I really want us, as the healers,coaches, transformational space

(30:42):
holders, to keep being rigorous aboutwhat are we doing in which spaces,
and not all things for all spaces.
I know that because I really wantedall things to be for all spaces,
and I feel like I tried it andsome shit did not work, right?
And it's like, cool, let me learn and letus learn from what works and doesn't work.
So, I have this vision of maybe it'sthe next experiment going forward is

(31:07):
that we have really transformativeleadership development with groups
that share a purpose that's alignedwith that purpose and then when people
need deeper healing that there arepoliticized, somatized healing groups
that people can go to that they don'thave to have their co workers in and
that there's a place where that deeperhealing can happen because we need it.

(31:29):
I mean oppression causes trauma.
Colonization causes trauma.
Slavery causes, do you know what I mean?
We're just living in intergenerationaltrauma, but there's a place that is
politicized and well held that canbe accessible, but you don't have to
share with your co workers or your coorganizers or your co collective members

(31:49):
because it really gets complex in a waythat I actually think doesn't serve us.
when we're trying to do all that together.
So I want to toss that in and I know Ican't remember what your question was.
What was your question?

Yeah.
you're doing so good.
I love what you, I love this.
I love where you went

Whatever, whatever.

Whatever.
Yeah, to speak to something you just said,I got to go to the embodied Transformation
course from Strozzi, a few monthsprior to the one that I took with you.
And so I took the kindof normal version of it.
And then you and the crew offered atthe changemaker version, and, to see
the differences and how you adjustedthe curriculum was so, instructive

(32:31):
and so powerful, particularly thatyou can do these activities where you
approach someone and you, help them,center while they are experiencing
some high pressure scenarios.
But then you can do that exactsame exercise with a line of
people as you're describing.
And let's imagine that's ourorganization and that this

(32:54):
organization is experiencing pressure.
And what does it look like tocollectively embody a centered
response in the face of pressure?
What an incredible invitation.
What a meaningful way to practice andwhat a needed way to practice that when
we are so caught up in the day to daywork of our organization's mission, it's
like, there's just more on the to do list.

(33:14):
We gotta go.

Completely.

So that resonates.

When I work with organizations, we
really do ask that question.
What's your purpose?
In some ways, what'syour collective shape?
And your collective survivalstrategies or condition tendencies,
given all of that, that informs whatpractices we should do together.
It isn't just like meditation isalways great, throw it in, or centering
is always great or whatever, right?

(33:39):
It really, we want our practices tobe informed by what's going to serve
the vision and purpose given thecollective shape that's practicing,
given the particular pressures they'reunder and given their collective
default strategies to pressure.
And then it can be like,cool, here's our practice.
But we really encourage folks to go,okay, at least once a week at the staff

(34:01):
meeting, do 20 minutes of practice, right?
At least once a week at the staff meeting,go here is our vision and purpose.
Here's how we'll know when we fulfill it.
So we're coming backjust like individuals.
We're coming back again andagain to vision, to purpose.
And what are the practicesthat will serve us now?
And fulfilling that purpose morepowerfully or in withstanding

(34:25):
all these pressures in a moreresilient and connected way.
I feel like I've learned, thereare to me a few things to track.
Can we remember and stayconnected to what we care about?
It's also a question to go, canI remember what I care about?
So what practices help us do that?
Then there's like, can we stayconnected to each other under pressure?

(34:47):
Because it's really normal to splinterunder pressure, to splinter during
transition, to splinter during politicaldisagreements, but guess what that does?
Weaken our movements.
That's all it does.
You know what I mean?
So to me a huge question is with all thispressure is how do we stay connected?

(35:10):
At the right distance, it's okay,but how do we stay connected
under some of these conditions?
That usually means wehave to practice that.
Who taught us that?
What conditions taught us that?
And I don't mean the like mergedconnected or what we might
call codependent connected.
Like how do I be connected to myselfand you and you in this maelstrom?

(35:31):
Another one is, okay, how do westay connected and resilient?
And I don't mean again,resilient, like override.
I mean, a politicizedunderstanding of resilience.
When all we know is coming is pressure.
So all of that informs what couldwe be practicing to deepen this
in our collective soma and keepus more in responsive strategic

(35:56):
choices rather than reactivity.
The hurt is authentic.
And then how we be with the hurt isso much where there can be such a
difference in, in what happens out of it.
Right?

Yeah.
You're, embodying something thatI'm really curious about, which is
something that politicized Somaticsdoes at like every step, which is
weaving the systemic and the personal.
And this way that I'm like, I look atit and I'm like, yes, more of that,
because there's so much in the coachingworld especially, I think, that can

(36:30):
be used to further capitalism and tofurther other systems domination where
becomes like, okay, we're going tocoach our employees to basically be more
compliant, docile, more accepting ofpain, the pain that you're talking about.
There's something that you have yoursights set on that allows you and

(36:54):
this body of politicized somaticsto not let coaching become a tool
for pacification or for just, oh, Ican tolerate more of the injustice.
How is that happening that itdoesn't get used to that way?

What I'm really hoping is that, like, our generation, and I
mean kind of those of us, let's say,actively in the world of transformation
from our, like, 20s to our 80s, like,those of us who are rolling with this
right now, that we make a very, verystrong intervention during our lifetimes.
I think it's ours to do.

(37:28):
And the intervention is, there'sno such thing as personal change
outside of a social context.
You actually can't separate aperson from our social context.
And that is just like, duh, how didthey ever think we could do that?
And that social context is,right now, on power over.
And what we're committed to at whateverlevel we're working is transforming

(37:52):
all of that to a social and economicconditions that are based on power
with each other, but also the planet.
So to me, we are theintervention right now.
And one of our risks is becauseeveryone and their cousin is running a
program online right now, which is okay.
We're in a popularization moment, right?
Of somatics of transformation, thevast majority is not politicized.

(38:15):
Like we have to be real.
The vast majority is not politicized, butwhat's happening is like DEI is like a
frosting being spread on a warm cake.
It's superficial.
It runs off.
It doesn't actuallybecome part of what is.
There's a lot of DEI overlay right now,and I really want us all, because we're

(38:37):
going to do this together, to be like, asuperficial DEI analysis is not enough.
It wasn't enough in the 90s.
It wasn't enough in the 40s.
It's not enough.
It's not enough.
Structural analysis means we'relooking at structural power and the
distribution, the collective systemicdistribution of safety, belonging,

(38:58):
dignity, and resources, right?
So to me, there's this way, those of uswho are transformational practitioners,
we need to stay in politicaleducation of ourselves.
We need to stay involvedin movement, right?
We need to go, I'm anindividual in a collective soma.
How do I help this collectivesoma transform toward liberation?

(39:21):
Right?
And in some ways to just keepputting challenges where we need
to put in challenges and grab eachother's hands and lift each other
up and keep growing together.

(39:43):
Because what could get institutionalizedI mean, coaching, okay, so the
International Coach Federation.
They invented themselves.
They invented themselves and theyinvented their own standards.
There's no legal thing about it.
I thought about we should create oneof those for politicized somatics and
then I got too tired thinking aboutthe bureaucracy that would take.

(40:04):
But, but the standards, collectiveliberation is not part of their standards.
There's a lot of great things inthere, but working with a collective
SOMA, having coaching be inherentlytied to becoming socially active,
those are not the standards.
We need to bring those standards becausewhat's going to get institutionalized
is the default of individualism andracial capitalism and patriarchy.

(40:28):
It's okay.
We already know that.
That's not okay.
But we already know that it'snot like news, but we have to
stay in the intervention and stayin the intervention together.
So If someone out there is super calledto generate collective standards and like
a different narrative and a different,I don't even want the certification
program, but a different certificationbubble, or at least network all of us

(40:52):
so we can be more powerful together.
If you're called tothat work, please do it.
Feel free to call me.
I will join.

Yeah.
I mean, in there, you named so manypossibilities for the seeds of what an
alternate version of coaching, healing,practitionership can look like, right?
In the world that we currently have,it's like, not polite in quotes, right?
It's not accepted to say, Oh, great.

(41:18):
How is what you're doing here goingto inform you becoming active on the
social issues that affect your life?
that's, that's like, Oh, I don'twant to push my client in a direction.
I don't want to have anagenda, quote unquote.
And yet I love that vision of itjust being, well, obviously, how
could this person just, think ofthemselves as this autonomous, isolated

(41:41):
system that, oh, you take care ofyou and you're going to be fine.
And, there's nothing, more to do.

Can I toss something in here?
So in the 90s sometime, therewas an international conference
on somatics and it was great.
I also was like, people look so vibrant.
I'm like, I'm happy I'm in this world.
Something life affirmingis happening here.
But there's a group of peoplewho are talking about the

(42:08):
conflict between standard Westerntherapeutic traditions and somatics.
And therapists were beinglike, I can't touch my clients.
That's illegal.
It's literally illegalinside of my license.
And so they're talking aboutethics and this and that.
And, this guy, Thomas Pope,who's a long time in Lomi school.
He said, what if somatic body workand touching your clients was the most

(42:31):
healing and liberating thing for them?
Wouldn't it be unethicalnot to touch them?
And I was like, yeah, it would be.
It would be.
This is how I feel about politicizingsomatics, is the most natural thing,
it's like, I would go, okay, Jeremy,what do you care about for you?
What do you care about for your community?
What do you care about for the world?

(42:53):
That's in us.
That's already in us.
We already care about the collectivebecause we're social animals.
So to me that we only ask, no,don't talk about anyone else.
What, just what do you care about?
just for you.
It doesn't make any sense.
It's just like the somatics thing.
If touching someone is what'smost liberating, then become
skilled at touching people.

(43:13):
So I feel the same thing about actions.
It's like, what do you long for for us?
What do you long for for the world?
Do you know how to get engaged with peopleand communities who also care about that?
It'll be so liberating for you.
Cool.
Here's some ideas.
I don't know either.
Here's some ideas.
It isn't about someonegetting it right politically.

(43:33):
It's about understanding that we'reinterdependent beings that long
to be back in interdependence.
I think we thrive in placesthat are life affirming.
We thrive when we get reintroducedhow to connect to the earth.
You know to me one of theroots of individualism is our
separation from the planet, right?
Now, capitalism, neoliberalism,all of them thrive on objectifying

(43:58):
the planet and objectifying otherpeople, especially people they
need to, for cheap labor, right?
But when I think about somatics allowsus to re understand ourselves as
living, dynamic, organic beings thatcome from and are part of the earth.
And you can conceptually reconnectwith the planet or like, love land.

(44:20):
But if you don't know how to let yourown weight down onto the ground or
soften and open in a way where we canfeel, the stones or the water, something
very profound happens through softeningand re somatizing and reconnecting.
I just think it's part of the rootof individualism is that separation

(44:43):
and part of what we need toremember or relearn how to do again.
But that happens not just conceptually, itreally happens through the change in our
tissues and following our actual longings.
So I'm going off on so many tangents,but thank you for being with me
in the conversation like this.

Oh my gosh.
I just had this longingrise up in my heart.
I was like may it be so that 10 yearsfrom now someone is digging back
in this podcast and is like What doyou mean coaching happening without?
Without people talking aboutwhat do you want for us?
What do you want for the earth?
Of course we do that.
That's just what we do now.
Maybe however many years thatproject takes me it'd be so I just

May it be so.
Our new standard questions, right?
Mhmm
Oh

gosh.
Yeah.
I'm curious, you're using this wordtransformation a lot and it's a word
that, for a long time I had a verylike fraught relationship with actually
until course with you last year.
I was like, oh, it's kind of vague.
What are we talking about?
It's used everywhere.
Everybody throws out the wordtransformation, in my heart, I've

(45:49):
always viewed the work I do withclients as transformational, but it
wouldn't be a word I would ever say.
There's this definition frompoliticized somatics of transformation
that I'm sure we can talk about.
And then I want to like unpack it, likewe're using this word so much all the time
what do we really mean by transformation?

(46:09):
Yeah.

So funny, because if you go to the root of it, It's about
changing our embodied structure.
If you go transformation ormorph, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I mean, like any popularlanguage becomes meaningless.
And I think it also depends on which,structural site are we looking at?
Are we saying an individual,a family, a community, an

(46:31):
institution, or global capitalism.
But as you know, how we define it inpoliticized somatics is that we know
when we've transformed, when our waysof being, our ways of relating and
our ways of acting, taking action arealigned with our deepest longings and

(46:53):
visions, even when we're under pressure.
And to me, that's the measure islike, how can I be relate and act?
When I'm under a lot of pressurebecause understandably, and this is
what I love about like working withthe soma on the soma's terms Not the
rationalist view of the Soma, right?
Working with the soma on the soma'sterms is the soma is operating

(47:17):
inside of patterns and habits thatbecome Embodied and unconscious.
That's just how we work.
There's no bad about that But becauseso many of those have been inspired
by caused by trauma, oppression,privilege, individualism, weird,
funky gender training, right?

(47:38):
All of that.
That we have these habits that don'tserve our purposes, missions, and loves.
And that's what we're talking aboutwhen we shape shift, when we embody new
schemas, when we let traumas fall outof ourselves physically and emotionally.
Like that's the transformation we'retalking about so that we can be doing

(48:00):
relate in a way that's more alignedwith our vision and our values.
So that's what I would say forindividuals and collective bodies.
And then there's a different answer, ofcourse, as you know, to structural change.

Yeah.
Tell us more.

Yeah.
I want to hear what yousay about all this too.
Structural change is really that we'rechanging the, pathways of power and
commerce, from power over to power with,but it's really like the pathways of
structures, the institutions of commerce,decision making, governance, our profound
relationship to the planet, that those arereally changing from ones of exploitation

(48:39):
and power over to ones of interdependence,equity, what's life affirming, in
a very different relationship withchange and our many ecosystems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just read the just transitionshandbook It's like it's such a
beautiful simple way that MovementGeneration articulated structural

(49:01):
change and the changes were up to.

Oh.

love

that.

Okay, given your relationship with transformation
How do you now define it?

Yeah, I have like fewer words for it, but a
lot of felt experience of it.
So where I go into is like, okay,what are the moments with my clients
when I see something open up insidethem that up until that moment
has been so stuck, or rigid, orbrittle, or confusing, or cloudy.

(49:35):
What is a moment when somethinghappens, cognitively and somatically,
it's got to happen on both levels,where they are suddenly liberated
in some way from that, right?
And it's possible for them tonot just have a moment of insight
around it, but to have, the capacityto act with more creativity,

Mm-Hmm?

act with more compassion, moving forward, right?
That there is a new shapethat has been taken.
Maybe they're not going to do that 100percent of the time from now on, but
it is like, reliably accessible thatthere's some new way of showing up, new
way of being that might have been eitherinaccessible before, or, so far out of

(50:20):
reach, or just that someone was not evenaware of, that there was a different way.
I know that's how it was for me when Ifirst got involved, as a young activist,
when I first encountered coaching.
It wasn't somatic coaching.
It was it was more on the cognitive level,but even then, I was like, I had no idea
that I could even re evaluate that thingabout how I'm approaching my to do list

(50:44):
and how I need to constantly be da da da.
I didn't even know there was another way.
So that being invited into anotherway of being and supported in that.

Thank you for sharing

Yeah, thanks for asking.
I think there's one other questionthat I really wanted to ask you about.
which is related to this, and it'sabout this coaching and healing
paradigm we have currently.
And, we were talking about the ICF,the International Coaching Federation,
and a lot of these coaching schools.
As a new coach, I was told,Healing is about the past and

(51:18):
coaching is about your future.
No, okay, well, healing is aboutyour emotions and your psychology and
coaching is about your goals and dreams.
And we could go on and on with thesesort of, I wouldn't say any of them
are wrong necessarily, but at thispoint in my journey, decade in, I'm
like, These feel wildly simplistic.

(51:41):
So I find myself curious, youmostly use the word healing to
describe the work you're doing.
I see you use that word moreoften than coaching, but you're
obviously right at this intersectionof both in different ways.
You know, maybe thedistinction doesn't matter.
Maybe that's part of the answer tothis question, but I am curious if
you have a way that you hold thesetwo or the intersections of them.

Yeah.
I was already a somatic practitionerbefore the word coaching
came along, so I just don'tidentify it with her personally.
And it's great.
Whatever.
It's the language that, that we use now.
So I was on a call, at the endof last year with some very,
very seasoned, somatic teachers.
People who have the 20, 30 plus yearsin, we had exactly this conversation.

(52:26):
We just laughed because we're like,we can't even agree with each other.
It was a great, we just keptthrowing out, what about this?
What about that?
So
I don't think there's an answer.
What I do think there are, are, things topay attention to around our competence.

Yeah.

what we can hold.
That's what I think is very important.
Now, obviously, legally, there'sa set of legal standards that
licensed therapists and counselorsand social workers are held to.
Which is another thing that we mightwant to politicize and change over time.
But there's a, there's a veryclear set of, criteria and

(53:04):
behavioral standards, right?
Again, the ones for coachingpeople are just inventing and then
building an institution out of.
We can build an alternate institution,with a different set of criteria.
But to me the biggest thing is to go ifyou realize that what's happening for who
you're working with either in a group orindividually is trauma or complex trauma

(53:27):
intergenerational trauma and you don'thave deep training in that just pause and
find another Practitioner to refer to.
It just feels very, very important.
The things, again, like I said before,it's just the complexity of what happens
to us relationally under experiencinga lot of trauma is very complex.

(53:51):
And it's important to know that.
What needs to be held emotionallywith deep wounding is complex.
And we need to actually embodythat and know the terrain through
training and through having done ourown work and through listening and
practicing and getting mentorshipwith a wide range of people.
That's all very important.

(54:12):
So mostly that's what I justwant to invite us all to ask
is like, where am I competent?
Where am I not?
And no bad, let's be awesomeat what we're awesome at.
And let's be really clear.
Like, I'm not good at that yet.
Or maybe I'm never going to get good atthat, it's fine, but be able to note that.
Also, rarely, it is importantto actually understand when

(54:34):
you might need a psychiatrist.
And then to just go, there mightneed to be an evaluation or
an assessment around learningdifferences, or a neurodivergence.
And if you don't know that, Don'tstart messing around in there.
Be like, how can I find youanother resource, right?
And refer folks and as much aspossible, get folks surrounded

(54:54):
by the kind of support they need.
Now, some of that support, youwon't find someone politicized.
So then you might be the voice withthem and for them to go, cool, let's
take that through a political analysis.
How can we make this work for you?
Right.
So it might be a bit of a combo team.
Or a little bit here and there.
That's mostly how I want to respondto your question, is that we be really

(55:17):
accountable and collectively selfreflective around what folks need,
can we meet what they need, if not,how can we create an environment
of support that maybe we can.

Yeah.
I absolutely love that answer.
Thank you.
It feels so much more truthfulthan the common answers that
are out there about this.
And it also feels, it's very spaciousto say that the label is only a little
bit important, only to the extent thatit conveys, truthfully to the people

(55:50):
we're working with, what we're capableof, but much more important is the very
nuanced terrain of what am I familiarwith regarding how to support folks?
And what am I not familiar with?
What am I not capable ofsupporting this person with?
And that just leaves, there's somany different configurations that
I can picture coming in, that docome out of that for each individual

(56:11):
practitioner and what they're gonnabe able to support their clients with.
Yeah, it just feels very generative.

I'm glad.
Yeah.
It feels more to what thelived experience is like, yeah.
Another thing that I would love, butI don't think I'm the person to do
it, is how cool would it be if wehad, like, joint supervision circles?
Like circles of circles or networksof circles, where we can also be

(56:39):
in circles with folks who shareour methodology and folks who are
coming from a different methodology.
And there is a way that, especiallyfolks who are doing full time
coaching, it can become very isolating.
And I think coaching doesn't haveits chops around supervision yet.
So I know folks who are fairlynew in coaching and don't have a
supervisor and just keep going.

(56:59):
And I'm like, okay.
Let's shift that up, everybody.
Like, let's have mentors.
Let's have mentors.
So who's someone 10, 20, or 30years down the road who is down
to having your back and down tosupport you and down to engage?
And I, feel like it's part ofthe infrastructure that we need
to build, both for accountability,where we can be in circles actually

(57:21):
grappling with this question.
It's like, I think I'm over my head.
Who should I go to?
Who should I refer this person to?
That we can be in support and we don'tisolate ourselves inside of this role.
And we also don't get, I think partof both because of my own survival
strategies, there was a point in mywork at generative somatics where I

(57:41):
was so imbalanced with how much I washolding and how little I was being held.
That was, it's not good.
It wasn't good for me.
It wasn't good for the people around me.
And I, there was a lot of coursecorrecting and healing and
rebalancing from that once Istepped out of my role there.
But I think all of us have to payattention to that who are in roles

(58:01):
of practitioners, coaches, healers,transformational space holders.
And I'd love to see that with each other.
Like, can we have peer groups?
Can we have peer groups thatshare a mentor or a supervisor?
Can we, in our peer groups,practice together, right?
And just have places of healingand support for those of us whose

(58:22):
main role is healing and support.

May it be so.

Yeah
Yeah I know some people who aredoing it but it doesn't feel like
it is a across the board systemicpractice, a collective practice
yet, and it feels like we need it.

Yeah.
Yeah, I recently, in a more peer fashion,started reviewing each other's sessions
from someone else who has a similar amountof experience as I do, ten years in.
And it's the first time that anyonehas listened to my coaching sessions
like since my training or something.
And when I realized that, Iwas like, wow, why do I feel so
nervous to share these sessions?
I was like, Oh, I haven't gotten direct,I've gotten mentorship in the sense that I

(58:59):
would get consults, but I hadn't actuallyhad someone listen to a recorded session.
And I was like, and I've gotten, and he'strained in a different model than I am.
And so we just, it is sucha generative space and a
vulnerable space for us to be in.

Good job

yeah,

That's great.
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
There's so many ways for us to do it.
It just would be, yeah, I'd loveto see the majority of us do it
Yeah.

yeah.

Cool.

Is there anything else before we start to close
that you want to share with folks?
Yeah

Yeah
I'd like to say asomething about joy.
So I also have, a strong spiritualpath, and that connection to what
is more vast has been very importantto me ever since I was a kid.
It's not in a religious context, butmore, you know, I grew up in the woods,

(59:49):
I grew up in nature and that was a reallyaccess point is all the wilderness.
And that night sky, theunpolluted night sky.
Wow.
In my spiritual practice, I'll oftenask like, What needs tending or what
should I be paying attention to andit's so interesting for me over the
last handful of years Joy has beenthe answer often and it has been a

(01:00:12):
real inquiry for me like what why?
Did you look at what's happeningin our world, you know?
This own little dialogue, but and I don'tknow the answer, but I do really feel
like whether it's very small practicesof joy of just like at the end of my
night, I'll go, let me reflect on my day.
What were points of joy in my day?

(01:00:32):
What were, what did that feel like?
What were points of connection in my day?
Like our conversation will bepart of my reflection tonight and
letting myself feel like, how didthat feel in my soul, in my body?
As well as like, werethere learnings in my day.
Is there something I wouldhave liked to do differently?
But this piece about joy andwhatever the resonance or
the, somatic experience of it.

(01:00:55):
What I make up, I'm just making thisup, is that it helps with the being
flexible, changeable, curious, interested,and helps decrease the brittleness.
That it maybe amidst all the painis just a resonance we want to keep
feeding by making sure we remember it.

(01:01:15):
So there's, I'm, I am in a practiceand inquiry of like the big
joys and the really small joys.
So then I want to, share one as of late.
So I got to spend all Saturdaywith my granddaughter who's six.
And, we just spent hours on theplayground and talking about
somatics, what you can learn aboutsomatics through watching a kid.
She really wanted to do a new trick,but was afraid this whole somatic

(01:01:38):
process ran in her, including gettingreally mad because she couldn't do it.
And then blaming mebecause I didn't help her.
I was like, Oh, here we are.
This is what we do, but obviouslyI could be a different adult grand
and just be like, are you afraid?
She's like, yeah, I'm just afraid.
It was so quick for her to goback to acknowledging that.
And then she did thetrick, which is great.
But she decided to dress up fordinner because we were having a

(01:02:00):
special dinner back at her house.
And she put on, like reallynine layers of costumes.
And then she'd take a couple bites andshe would very subtly take one of them
off and then be there in a new outfit.

Jeremy Blanchard (01:02:15):
Oh my gosh.

Staci Haines (01:02:15):
And I think she was three outfits in before I actually noticed
what was happening, because we weretalking and, you know, hanging out.
And then, I just, I've just been ponderingthis week, the utter creativity of
that, just the delight, her delight,and then our delight at that, how
colorful, I kept going, you looklike a rainbow, what's happening, how

(01:02:36):
colorful it was, and it's a small joyin relation to the world and everything
we've talked about, but the delight,experiencing the delight of it, and then
delighting in her, is so nourishing.

Oh, I love that.
Just letting that sink in.
Oh, what a picture.
Well, that leads perfectly to thequestion I like to ask at the end
of every episode, which is, whereare you getting your nourishment?
So this is obviously one of the placesyou're getting your nourishment.
Maybe there are other things,especially things you could recommend
to folks, whether that's books orthe leaders that you're following,

(01:03:13):
the thinkers you're following, thepractitioners, practices, anything
like that you want to share with folks.

Awesome.
I love books and there's this amazingbook called Sharks in the Time of Saviors.
That's good.
I've listened to it twice.
So yeah, creative visions of the futureare just, fiction writers amaze me.
My next door neighbor organizedabout six of us to all plant trees
up and down our block last weekend.

(01:03:39):
That was incredibly nourishing andthis new little being lives in front
of my house now that I get water everyday and I to know her this new tree.
so that just staying connectedthat way is nourishing to me.
I think as you know.
Last summer, I got diagnosed withvery early stage breast cancer, and so

(01:04:01):
I've been on a, like, the rearrangedjourney of all of that, and I'm seeing
an incredible acupuncturist, andshe is incredibly nourishing for me.
And what's interesting is, this is aquestion she asked me all the time, too.
It's like, hold on, how areyou nourishing yourself?
And she means it in the biggestmetaphoric way, so I'm thinking
about this question a lot.

This has been great.
How can folks connect with you?
If they want to stay intouch or, find your courses?

Thank you.
Yeah, they can connect with me.
It's so funny.
It's so weird to me to have a Stacihaines.
com, but I one now.
I just have a website.
I'm just in such an organization person.
It's very odd to not be like,here's the organization.
And, I also, teach in personcourses through Strozzi Institute.
So folks can look there andfind some of the in person work.

(01:04:49):
But yeah, online, I'm onInstagram and I post sometimes.
I was thinking, I'm a little bitolder than Instagram, but I post
sometimes, and that's Staci K.
Haynes there.
And, yeah, you can email methrough the website, too.
That's places folks can find me.

Well, this conversation is definitely one of my joys and
sources of nourishment today and Iknow it's going to be sitting in my
heart for a while and I think it willbe for the folks who listen to it.
And I just especially want to thankyou for all of the invocations
or prayers or longings thatyou put in this time together.
I can just feel them like going outand like, may they ripple out to the

(01:05:29):
people who's like, yes, I want that too.
Or what a good idea.
Let's get together and make that happen.
So, yeah.
for sharing all of yourexperience and care with us
today

You're really welcome.
I love that you called them that.
Invoking.
So powerful, huh?
Imagining together.

That's right.

Thank you.
It's a lot of labordoing what you're doing.
and what you're gifting out toall of us through the podcast.
So thank you so much for whatyou do and for having me and
I'm glad our paths have crossed.
I'm sure they'll crossmany more times now.

Yeah.

Yeah.
Thanks, Jeremy.

Thanks.
Thanks for tuning into this episode.
And big, thanks to Staci Haines forher fierce commitment to justice
and transformation at all levels.
And for sharing herwisdom with us here today.

(01:06:24):
You can check out the show notes for linksto the resources that Staci mentioned
and other ways to connect with her.
Episode nine comes out in two weeks witha coach named Andrea Ranae who runs a
program called Coaching as Activism.

Andréa Ranae (01:06:38):
My invitation is just to let ourselves feel the pain that we don't
have to have the shame on top of it.
It is painful to know that I havecontributed to the harm of another
person and that I had no idea.
That is painful.
I don't have to hold shame about it.
I can grieve that, have the pain aboutit, feel the pain about it, be with

(01:07:00):
others in my pain about it, and thendo something to tend to that pain.

So make sure you subscribe in your podcast app of
choice so that you can catch thatepisode and all the future ones.
As always the website is widerroots.com,where you can find our newsletter.
You can email me podcast@widerroots.comand you can follow the podcast
on Instagram at wider roots pod.
And lots of gratitude to Megfor helping review this episode.

(01:07:28):
Thanks as always do wild choirfor the theme music for the show.
You're currently listening to their song.
Remember me, which will play us out.
See you next time.

and I know I can't remember what your question was.
What was your question?

Yeah.
you're doing so good.
I love what you, I love this.
I love where you went

Whatever, whatever.

Whatever, Whatever.

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