November 14, 2024 • 45 mins
🎙 Breaking the Silence: Why Working Moms Need to Support Each Other in Corporate America
In this vulnerable episode, Audra dives deep with Corporate Recovery Specialist, Caren Cooper, to uncover the often hidden and challenging experiences faced by working mothers in corporate America. Caren, who transitioned from corporate life to entrepreneurship, shares her journey through the relentless pressures of "doing it all"—balancing career and motherhood without a support system. Together, they explore why it’s crucial for women to unite, share their stories, and lift each other up in a world that often leaves working moms feeling isolated and overwhelmed. Highlights include:
🌟 The Reality of Corporate Pressures: Unpacking how hustle culture and societal expectations impact working moms
👩‍👧 Balancing Motherhood & Career: The push-and-pull between career ambitions and the guilt of not being “enough” at home
đź’¬ The Power of Community: The importance of connecting, supporting, and speaking honestly with each other
💪 Permission to Be Real: Giving yourself grace and releasing the pressure to “do it all” perfectly
This episode is a rallying cry for working moms to shed societal expectations, embrace their identities, and lean on each other. It’s a must-listen for those seeking connection, authenticity, and a community that understands the unique journey of being a working mom in today’s world.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carencooper/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audra (00:00):
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week we're going to talkabout a topic that we absolutely
do not talk about enough.
This week we're going to speakwith a former Corporate America
employee, turned entrepreneur,karen Cooper, and she is a
Corporate Trauma RecoverySpecialist.
Let that sink in for a moment.
(00:22):
Corporate America TraumaRecovery Specialist, she's
incredibly passionate abouthelping women heal from the
shackles of corporate America.
Having been a working momherself, she knows the firsthand
of the trauma behind being incorporate America and how it
plays a unique role in the lifeof a working mom.
(00:43):
Through her signature program,unscrew Yourself, she helps
women empower themselves and howto harness the power within
them so they can show upconfidently and authentically
and empower their unique andbadass selves.
It is my honor and my pleasureto introduce Karen.
Karen, thank you so much forbeing here and welcome to the
(01:06):
show.
Thank you so much for having mehere today, karen.
I am so excited for you to behere and first of all, right out
of the gate, let's talk aboutthe elephant in the room
corporate trauma.
I don't think anybody has saidthat out loud.
I think we've whispered aboutit.
(01:26):
I think that we might haveconsidered that topic, but why
don't you define what'scorporate?
Caren (01:37):
trauma To me.
My definition of corporatetrauma is this it's partly the
hustle culture, so there's a lotof variations to the definition
.
Okay, it's the hustle culture.
It's like the hustle culture,so there's a lot of variations
to the definition.
Okay, it's the hustle culture.
It's like I have to get thingsdone, I have to prove myself and
I have to work really hard toget things done and I have to
keep going to get things doneand I can't sit still because I
have to get things done.
So that's part of the traumaand that carries over into like
(01:59):
life and business and thingslike that.
And the other trauma as aworking mom was the ostracizing
of being having to leave at fiveo'clock to pick up my kids from
daycare, the being looked up.
My kids are 22 and 18.
So when when there was not alot of flexibility in the
workplace back then, so thetrauma was being expected to
(02:22):
literally do it all, be it alland have it all and smile at the
end of it all and be okay withit all.
Audra (02:32):
Let's scale it back and talk about that, and that's what
we're actually here to talkabout.
Is that working moms?
We don't.
I'm a working mom.
My kids now are 27 and 24.
I'm a working mom.
(03:10):
My kids now are 27 and 24.
They're a little bit older thanyours.
Where it was the culture whenmy kids were little?
Say out loud that, while I lovemy children and I am so proud
of my children, being a mom wasnot enough for me.
I absolutely want and enjoy mycareer and wanted to have a
career, but also wanted to havechildren, and trying to have
(03:32):
both is difficult and I'm notalone.
You wanted to have both too.
You wanted to have both.
An identity that encompasseshaving a career and children
(03:53):
Both an identity thatencompasses having a career and
children.
Caren (03:58):
And you had children in an age as same as mine, where
there was no support, and it wasinteresting because I was like
I'll climb the corporate ladder.
And then when I got pregnant, Iwas like I don't know.
So my thought process shifted alittle bit and in my case, I
had to go back to work.
Like I wasn't sure that Iwanted what I you know what I
mean.
Like, in my case, I was like Iwant to work, but I don't know
(04:19):
that I want to work.
I think I want to be home.
It was like a lot of back andforth for myself and, quite
honestly, I resented myex-husband because he didn't
make enough for me to stay home.
So there's that.
And I went back to work when mydaughter was 10 weeks old, and
(04:41):
this was a month and a halfafter 9-11 happened and I live
in New York and it was reallyreally, really, really hard and
nobody, there was no preparationfor going back to work.
Like let's ignore, like theworking part of it, like having
to be a mother and to go back towork.
It's a very, regardless ofwhether you want to or not.
(05:02):
There's a lot self-imposedguilt, societal guilt, a lot
going on and it's like there'sno preparation for that.
And so, yeah, it was reallythere was no support in the
sense of I didn't feel like Ican tell people that I was going
to basically lose my crap andmaybe in a matter of minutes,
(05:22):
like I totally thought mydaughter was going to call the
woman who owned the daycarecenter, mom, like I legitimately
thought this who was I tellingthat to?
You know what I mean?
I had support in the sense ofparents and other people to
watch her when she got sickevery five minutes because she
was in daycare so young.
But there was no support.
Mindset wise and mentally wiseof Holy crap, you're a working
(05:48):
mom, and even that commercialbecause you're like my age and I
remember I bring home the bacon, I fry it up in a pan.
Audra (05:56):
I know that very well.
I've talked about that manytimes.
Caren (06:00):
I hate that commercial and I used to love it, like
that's the thing I used to loveit, I'm the thing I used to love
it.
I'm like god, yeah, women cando everything we can, but it's
like the expectation is that weshould be.
My whole problem was is that,as a working mom, I was
ostracized if I worked.
I was ostracized if I didn'twork.
Like I was ostracized for beinga working mom, and that was
(06:21):
that was the part that pissed meoff, because it's like you know
what, by the way, fun fact that22 and 18 and standing upright,
yay, you know, yeah, and one'sa college graduate, one's a
student to be a student graduate, and they're good as humans.
So my working didn't affect mebeing a parent in that sense.
You know what I mean.
Audra (06:41):
And I think people know exactly what you mean.
Yeah, I know exactly what youmean, but there was no one to
talk to about this no one.
And like you, I was in a careerwhere and still am I made more
money than my husband still do.
And at one point my husband wasa stay-at-home dad and I don't
(07:07):
regret it for one minute because, quite frankly, he was at that
time, at the ages that they were, he was the better parent to
stay at home with them.
But there's a part of me thatwishes that I could have.
I really do.
I don't know how well I wouldhave handled it, but I never got
the chance to find out, right,you know?
(07:29):
So there's that part of me thatI wish I could have found out,
but there was never thatopportunity.
And there's also, in this crazycareer that I have and I've
traveled for my job.
Do you know the question that Ihate the most when I travel.
Caren (07:50):
Something about leaving your kids, I'm sure.
Audra (07:52):
Yes, who's with your kids?
Their dad, their dad?
Do you know that none of mymale counterparts were ever
asked that question who's withyour kids?
But also, when I travel, do youknow that I couldn't just
(08:14):
because I'm the mom, I couldn'tjust worry about packing my
stuff up and getting ready to go.
I had to worry about everythingelse and then pack myself up
and get ready to go.
Right, I mean, part of that isself-imposed Right, absolutely,
(08:34):
and part of it is, you know, myjob.
Part of it is societalexpectations and we're talking
about this.
We can't win, and we also don'ttalk to each other about this.
And maybe that's part of thisconversation is because we don't
(08:58):
talk to each other about this,because there is this level of
shame and guilt and I don't haveit all together.
I'm losing my mind and I'mshameful because I'm losing my
mind and I'm supposed to have itall together but I don't.
And I feel guilty and I feelresentful.
(09:18):
But I'm supposed to feel likeI've got it all together and I'm
supposed to feel grateful, andI'm supposed to feel grateful,
I'm supposed to feel all thesethings, but I don't.
So I'm just going to sit herein silence and be in pain by
myself, because the expectationis that I'm just supposed to be
happy.
Caren (09:39):
Yes, and what I'm going to do right now is give you
permission to not be okay.
And what I'm going to do rightnow is give you permission to
not be okay, because guess whatFun fact, let's just be honest,
parenting is a trip Period.
Yes, hard stuff.
Working, not working doesn'tfreaking matter.
Parenting is a.
It's like entrepreneurship.
(09:59):
It's a trip and a half.
It's like a rollercoaster.
It's like a ride.
You don't know what the hell'sgonna happen.
It's twists and turns, everyfreaking place known to man.
So give yourself permission tobe like you know what.
Yeah, today's hard.
Today's our day.
A lot of emotions, there's alot of things going on with
parenting.
It's hard.
So I'm gonna hereby give youpermission to and not have any
(10:20):
shame or guilt surrounding thisthat the fact that it is hard,
because it is from time to timeit is.
My mentor, tracy Litt, saidsomething once on her own
podcast when she was talking tosomeone one of her guests and
she said you know, if you're aparent and you haven't felt like
you want to tie your kid uponce in a while, you're not
really a parent.
I thought that was the funniestthing ever because it's.
(10:43):
You know what what I mean.
We're freaking human.
Yes, I do mindset work.
Yes, this is what I do for aliving.
You know what I mean.
But like we're also freakinghuman guys.
It's hilarious work, parentingand parenting, and it, you know,
22 and 18 is even more.
You know.
My neighbor said this one smallkids, small problems, big kids,
big problems.
(11:03):
Man did that.
God is that a whole thing?
True, and I think that's partof the problem is that, you know
, I 100% had self.
So there was the societalinfluence that, by the way, at
the time I didn't realize that'swhat it was, but there was 100%
self-imposed guilt.
I would come home right fromwork and like, spend time with
(11:28):
my daughter and play with herand do all these things because
I had such guilt not being withher all day that when she was,
you know, when she was growingup, she was hard for her to play
by herself because I wasplaying with her all.
Like I had so much guilt, like Ididn't leave her alone and part
of my misogast was like I was alatchkey kid, right.
So like I was nine years oldwhen my mother went back to work
(11:50):
, my brother was 13 and my dadwas already working and you know
.
And so she growing up, and wegrew up in a co-op apartment in
brooklyn and I literally had ashoelace with a key around my
neck and I would come home and Ihave to call her because you
know, I'm, you know, 55 yearsold.
So back in the days of yore wedidn't have internet just saying
(12:10):
and, and like I had a callerand she knew where I was, and
then people in the neighborhoodknew who I was.
I don't even think they knew myname.
They knew, like, who I belongedto.
I'm not even joking, like talkabout trauma, but long story
short short.
Like I was a latchkey.
So because of I was a latchkeyand I was a working mom myself,
I was like, well, shit, I haveto do something, so I have to
play with her and Iovercompensated you know what I
(12:32):
mean.
And and then the expectation was, and then it was like you know,
I would get that too.
Like I wouldn't ask, I didn'talways travel for work, but like
when I would go out, because Iworked in the advertising
industry and so we would go out,we would have things and
whatever, and who's with yourkid?
And I would have guilt byleaving her.
But here's a fun fact.
We're also like shoot, we'repeople like I'm Karen.
(12:54):
I may be my kid, I may be momand I may be you know all these
other things, but I'm also Karenand I think a lot of times
especially well as working momswe forget that like we're Audra,
we're Karen, we're our ownindividual human and we are
allowed to go out and be people.
Because if we don't which Ididn't, even though I did I was
(13:17):
still a massive people pleaser,so I overcompensated in
different ways and I burntmyself out and I was miserable.
Audra (13:23):
So what gives in different ways and I brought
myself out and I was miserable.
So what gives it's?
You know, I've been askingmyself that, for really, I know
I had this giant exhale becauseI've asked myself this a lot,
especially now because I'm anempty nester.
And that's a weird trip too,because when you pour yourself
into these two humans for thelast 25 plus years and then
(13:46):
those two humans have theaudacity to grow up and leave
and you're like what do I do now?
Yes, you know, it's really.
And even as a working mom, evenas a working mom I have a career
that I designed to be flexiblearound these two humans.
(14:09):
Right, and I did that in such away because I am the oldest
child of four, also a latchkeykid.
I am the oldest of four, theoldest daughter.
I am the oldest of four, theoldest daughter, and so it was
my job to take care of theyounger three.
Not only to take care of theyounger three, to take care of
(14:30):
my parents as well.
So I didn't have much of achildhood.
I really did not.
So I made it my job, with mychildren, to make sure that they
had a childhood.
I wanted them to be kids.
Yes, I wanted them to be kids.
Yes, I absolutely wanted themto be kids, yep, so I guarded
(14:53):
that with my life because I knewthat childhood was absolutely
precious Yep, so I designed mywhole career around that very
tenet I want you to be kids.
And I've had a wonderful career,a great career, and I've put up
(15:15):
with a lot of crap.
Like I said, remember, westarted this conversation about
corporate trauma and obviouslyhas been become a therapy
session, so hopefully everybodyhas hung on for the ride.
So hang in there, guys.
Um, so I've, I've designed thiswhole thing with that in mind,
(15:36):
and now they've had the audacityto grow up and leave.
So apparently you've done areally good we my husband and
I've done a really good job ofraising them and they've left.
And so now I ask the questionsof okay, now, what?
Right now?
Now I, now I get to definemyself who, what the heck, what,
(16:00):
who, what, where, how and why,and and it's, it's an, it's an
interesting thing.
And now I'm trying to shed awayall of these societal messaging
that now I've come to discover,especially through this process
of the last four years of doingthis podcast, that these
(16:20):
societal messaging is allbullshit, quite frankly, yeah,
and that a lot of it doesn't fitme.
Correct, a lot of it doesn'tand, quite frankly, a lot of it
doesn't fit all of us Right, andwe're all trying to shed this
(16:46):
Right and try to define who weare, and I guess that's part of
the point of what you do.
Caren (16:52):
Yes, uh-huh, it is, and I want to.
I want to share and thank youfor sharing that.
But to your point aboutidentity you mentioned you know
who you are.
Back in 2018, I'd gotten laidoff from a job and I was turning
50.
And I was like, who the hell amI?
I had my worth and I'm suremaybe people can resonate with
(17:15):
this.
I had my worth very much tiedinto being a working mom, like I
wore like a freaking badge ofhonor, like a badge of honor,
and I'm not unhappy that I didthat.
But when I lost my job in 2018,I was like, oh crap, who am I
If I am not a working mother?
Part of the work I do is thatyou are enough and whole as you
are and that your worth isn'ttied to anything.
(17:37):
So I want to, you know and thatlends to kind of what you're
saying as well but one of my I'mhalf an empty nester.
My daughter is, is not, youknow, she's out and about, you
know having a life, and my sonis graduating high school next
week, um, so I'm half an emptynester and I'm separated.
So it's like, oh, who's karen?
Without like being a parent andlike who's karen?
(17:59):
What does she like?
What does she want to do?
What does she?
You know what I'm saying.
And to your point, audra, likewe can look at it from the lens
of a crap and and look at itfrom the lens of negatively, or
we can just be like what can youknow what?
As it is corporate trauma,parenting, all this is an
adventure.
Why not look at it as anadventure at this point?
(18:21):
Right, so there, I just want tosay that because, even though
you know, you're still, you'restill a working mom because
you're still like the mom,you're still a mom.
Just because they're emptynesters and they're not home
doesn't mean that you're not aworking mom and the other thing.
And then I'll go back to what Ido and how I help.
But like it takes a village.
And that's so true.
Because, to your point abouthaving your kids, having a
(18:42):
childhood, like I said inadvertising, when I was working,
there was at the time, therewasn't flexibility in the
workplace, but I, like you, waslike my kids want, you know,
because I had a great childhood,because I was outside playing
all the freaking time, like Ihad it.
You know what I mean.
I didn't have to, like you, Iwas outside playing and I went
up to Monticello in the summersand playing, you know, man, on
(19:05):
the stupid shop.
It was fantastic, you know whatI mean.
So my kids were like you know,and I live in a neighborhood
like that you go ring the bell,you go play outside, like people
think I'm insane.
I'm like, no, you go playoutside, like that's how it
works.
You come in when the lights godown.
You know, lights go on, likethat's how I grew up.
So, but my kids but I put mykids were in things.
So my daughter started off indancing school and then they she
(19:27):
was in softball and he was inbaseball.
My children, but it takes avillage because I couldn't leave
to get them.
So other people, like othersports parents, were helping us
out all the time and that's howmy kids were able to have a
childhood in a sense of beingable to do extracurriculars
because other people werehelping.
And so, even though I didn'thave support in terms of how I
(19:49):
was feeling per se, at least Ihad support in other areas.
So that made up for it.
But struggling back to now whatI do, I realized that the
societal expectations like youin the last few years.
The societal, what we've beenfed and all of these things are
transferring over into so manyaspects of our life.
And so I'm an entrepreneur now,full time because of the
(20:12):
pandemic.
My contract with my financeposition ended when COVID hit
and I realized as anentrepreneur I carried over a
lot of that stuff into myentrepreneurship the working so
hard, the hustling, the wait.
I work for myself now so I haveno discipline to actually sit
and do anything because I wasworking for someone else and I
(20:33):
had the discipline when I wasworking for someone else to do
things, but like when you workfor yourself, you don't have to.
I didn't, I'm being honest.
And also the trauma of I mean,you know, a lot of our traumas
are from their childhood, right,and so they come into play in
the workplace.
So my people pleasing and mycodependency was 100% in the
(20:55):
workplace, right.
So I was afraid I was going tolose my job.
I was working and that's wherethe proving energy comes in and
all that stuff.
So the hustle culture is fed toyou and then you're codependent
and you're people pleasing.
Add that on top of it and youwork.
I was working till one, twoo'clock in the morning and I
wasn't getting overtime orgetting compensated for it and I
(21:16):
was taking time away from mykids and there was guilt and
there was shame and there wasand there was this push and pull
.
And so now it's my mission to atalk about this and be honest
about it.
And, fun fact, I am not knockingcorporate at all, by the way,
I'm not but it's who do you?
You know, I wrote a post aboutthis the other day right, when
(21:39):
you're a business owner and yourbusiness isn't working, you
hire people to help with yourbusiness.
Right, when you know you hiredifferent people to help you
with different things.
Who do you hire to help youwith you?
That's where I come in, becausethe shame, the guilt, the
self-doubt, the impostersyndrome are people going to
(21:59):
find me out?
Right, because you're comingfrom corporate, you're turning
into an entrepreneur or you havea side hustle.
I had a side hustle when I wasworking in corporate America.
That was the other thing.
I had a side hustle when I wasworking in corporate america.
That was the other thing.
I had.
This I told someone working incorporate america and it's like
wait a minute, do you have time?
Are you going to be able to doall the things.
And it's like, first of all, hi, I'm a mom, so you damn
freaking right, I can do all thedamn things.
(22:20):
Just based off the fact that Ibirthed two kids, you know how
much information is on.
Is it a mom's brain just in andof itself, just because that's
that's part of what we do?
That that's not societal.
Like I realize this.
My ex, like I, would say youknow, do you know when they need
doctors?
No, because he didn't thinkabout it.
It didn't make him a bad father.
You know what I mean.
So I want to I've always beenone to buck the trend too.
(22:44):
If you can't tell by listening,right now I want to.
You know, throw everything on adime and be like you know what.
No, we need to take care of you.
You have this trauma, that thatmaybe in your childhood that
carried over into your working.
And then you know the work-lifebalance, which there wasn't any
.
You know the, the, the, the.
You know inflexibility, thefreedom of being able to do what
(23:08):
you want when you want, butalso not having the discipline
to do what you want when youwant, but also not having the
discipline to do what you wantwhen you want All the mindset
crap, the mind fuckery, Icouldn't help that.
One comes out and how do youdeal with all that?
And that's where I come in.
That's what I help you with.
Audra (23:24):
You help make that transition of and actually
unlearn everything that welearned, especially the, this
generation of women, becausemost of my audience are Gen Xers
Actually, most of my audienceis a reflection of me.
We were a bunch of Gen Xersthat were raised in the 70s and
80s.
(23:44):
A lot of us were latchkey kids.
A lot of us are, the areoverachievers because, honestly,
that is what we were trained tobe.
We're the generation of takeyour daughter to work day.
We went to work with our dadson that day and they didn't set
up cupcakes and and fun thingsto do for us on that day.
(24:06):
We literally went to work withour dads and sat next to our
dads as they did their job Atleast, that's what I did with my
dad and I sat at the desk withmy dad and watched him do his
job, which was my dad had acorporate job and it was a lot
(24:27):
of calls, it was a lot ofmeetings and it was a lot of
what I do today, if you want toknow the truth.
And that is what I watched himdo, and I think that that is a
lot of what my female colleaguesand counterparts did.
They watched their dad do this,and so we just emulated them.
(24:52):
We didn't know a different way,we weren't taught a different
way, so we emulated what ourfathers did.
But then also we decided tobecome moms and we meshed the
two together Because we didn'tknow another way.
(25:12):
And so you come in and go.
We have to unlearn all of that,because what we took on was two
roles.
We meshed on two roles, we tooktwo roles on our shoulders and
we expected them to be able tosurvive in the same space,
(25:37):
exactly the way they were fed tous, and expect them to play
nice together and exist.
No wonder we're tired.
Caren (25:46):
Right, I mean I mean and and I I went to to my dad was a
photographer, so I would gowith him and then.
But also like when there wastime off from school and my
parents couldn't take the timeoff right, because working moms
you only get a certain amount oftime.
You know, working parents veryyou know, generally get a
certain time, balance of timeoff.
I would go to work with my mom.
(26:08):
My mom was a secretary for thefederal government, so I was
typing all the time.
You know what I mean.
So I was, I was at work, likewhen school break was happening,
I was.
It was not even just takingyour daughter to work day, it
was like there's nobody.
You know what I mean.
It was, it was some of that aswell.
And so, yes, so I come in andand and re literally rewire
(26:29):
every program from what youcurrently are and, by the way,
there's nothing wrong with youat the moment, you're whole and
enough as you are.
I wanted to say that outrightOkay, nobody's broken, none of
that is happening.
It's a lot of when I talk abouttrauma.
It's okay, it's stems from even.
You know, you're a little kidand you wanted to go play with
(26:50):
someone on the playground andthey said, no Right.
And then you're like, oh, theydon't like me, so you made
meaning out of it.
They don't like me and theydon't.
This and and that you know madeyou feel maybe unworthy and not
enough, and that carried on topretty much adulthood, not
pretty much adulthood, okay.
So that's what I mean when I saytrauma.
So it's like the event thathappened and the meaning that we
(27:11):
gave it.
The same thing happened.
So therefore, like in my case,I was a people pleaser and I was
codependent because of thingsthat happened, that I made
meaning out of it, and so,therefore, the societal
expectations, I carried theweight of that and I felt like
the need to do all of that.
And then, oh my God, and then Ididn't speak my mind in
(27:32):
corporate right.
So when I was working corporate, whatever it was told to me I
would do, even though I didn'tnecessarily love it, I had an
instance once in a job where myreview was poor and it was based
off of things that I wasn'teven doing.
So half the stuff that myreview was about was things that
I wasn't doing, and they didn'teven know the things that I was
(27:53):
doing.
Audra (27:53):
You didn't say anything to the contrary.
Caren (28:05):
I did.
However, I was still meek aboutit.
So I can't be confident in myabilities, I can't set
boundaries, I can't speak upbecause I need this job and I
think you know what I mean andmaybe you can resonate with that
.
But like that's what I'mtalking about.
So, and the expectation that Ibring home the bacon, I fry it
(28:26):
up in a pan and you know I evengot once on the baseball field,
like the nerve, you know, causeit's you know, I even got once
on the baseball field, like thenerve, you know, because you
know I live in Staten Island andit's like, you know, being a
working mom was shunned.
It was, you know, shunned.
You know what I mean and thatwas told to me.
So it's like, and so I don'thave the wherewithal, right, and
I'm sure this is what I'msaying A lot of us don't have
the wherewithal to not at theirother people's opinions and the
(28:49):
judgment and all of that thatgoes on means nothing about us
at all and that we're not broken, we're not anything, we are
whole and enough as we are.
So when I talk, we understandwhere all of the stuff came from
, right, and then we get to thecore of it.
(29:10):
And then, once we get to thecore of it and understands all
data, then we're like, okay,we're going to rewire and
reprogram.
So now you're coming out.
You know what?
Now I can speak my mind.
Now I have the confidence tospeak my mind.
Now I have the confidence toset boundaries.
Now I have the discipline tosit and do a power hour by
myself and get my work done,knowing that this is going to
bring me the freedom and thedesire and the life that I want
(29:32):
to live.
So societal expectations bedamned, and whatever it says,
all the computer, whatever theycall the people like George, and
all that, because everybody hasalways something to say all the
time.
It doesn't matter, it doesn'tmatter.
And also, guys, as a working mom, you love your kids.
Whether or not you want to tiethem up on it, you know, every
once in a while or not, we loveour kids and we love our kids
(29:55):
fiercely.
That's enough.
That's enough.
There's no shame, there's noguilt.
You know doing it to yourselfor otherwise, that's what
working with me will bring youalso, and the awareness that may
you know what, it may come upfrom time to time, but you know
(30:18):
what, it's no big deal.
Okay, cool, it's just datawhat's happening in my life, to
understand that this is what'sgoing on.
You know what did my boss sayto me that pissed me off?
Maybe, or you know what my bosswill say something that pissed
me off.
Who cares?
Because office politics isoffice politics.
It is what it is.
It's always going to be there.
But what if you have theconfidence to say you know what,
I hear what you're saying, Iunderstand this, but can we work
together in this capacity?
(30:38):
Right, even if you still like,in your case, you're still
working.
You know it's just how do youshow up?
Just show up, not have thisweight on you of like shame,
guilt, self-doubt and people aregoing to find me out, all that
stuff, but just show up and belike you know what?
Hey, I'm bold.
There's confident, unique me.
Make it as it is.
(31:00):
I'm fabulous, Love it.
Thank you very much.
Audra (31:10):
As I have gotten older and as I've been meeting women
over the last four years, likeyourself, I've started to
basically it has shocked me thatit has led me on this journey
of self-discovery and peelingback layers like you're
describing.
And I've come to therealization is that people are
always going to judge you.
People are always going to talkabout you, they're always going
(31:33):
to think you're too much ofthis and not enough of that, and
they're always going to havesomething to say about you.
They might as well judge youfor how you actually are, rather
than who you think you shouldbe, rather than who you think
(31:54):
you should be, rather than whoyou pretend to be, rather than
who you send as yourrepresentative.
So I have been making it a veryconcerted effort to make sure
that I show up as me, speak mymind when I need to, and speak
(32:14):
up for myself when necessaryRight, and, more importantly,
speak up for others who haven'tyet discovered their voices.
All of that is scary.
I'm not going to tell you thatit's not because it is because
it is very uncomfortable after alifetime of trying to be what I
(32:45):
thought I was supposed to beExactly.
Once you step out of that box.
It's terrifying but absolutelynecessary, and it's the most
authentic thing I have ever done.
And how do you feel?
Most of the time?
(33:08):
Really good and petrified, yeah.
Caren (33:11):
But worth it.
That's gorgeous and that, myfriend, is exactly the point.
Okay, that is exactly the point, because here's a fun fact when
you, our bodies and minds aredesigned to keep us safe in the
same.
So the minute you move theneedle in any direction, the
mind is going to be like danger,danger, danger.
Let's work to get her back thesame.
(33:31):
The uncomfortableness iscontinuing to do the different.
I also teach you how to dealwith that, by the way, side note
.
But to your point, audra, I'mso excited and proud of you for
doing that exactly the way youare, because it's embracing the
unknown, it's being scared anddoing it anyway Because the fear
, it's a beautiful thing,because it means your body's
(33:52):
working the way it's designed towork, but it's obviously what
you're destined to do at themoment.
So you continue to do it andstay in the uncomfortable,
because that's where the beautyis in the uncomfortable, in the
unknown Even when it's greetedwith silence.
Audra (34:13):
And I'll give you an example.
Yesterday I did something veryuncomfortable.
I'm in a leadership group andyesterday was the first time
where we got to introduceourselves, and it was very
informal introduce ourselves,and it was not what do you do,
(34:34):
do, but what's a fun fact aboutyourself?
And I wrestled with it and I'mlike is this, when I tell them
what I do outside of these walls?
And I thought, well, if not now, they're gonna find out.
So I might as well rip theband-aid off.
And so I explained to them whoI was, where I live and, by the
way, I have a podcast andcrickets lead balloon.
(35:02):
The response was the silence wasdeafening and I thought you
would have thought that I hadsaid something horrifying, and I
thought they either are stunnedor they're shocked that I put
(35:26):
myself out there like that on aregular basis and because the
silence was deafening.
I think it was the latter, thatthey were shocked, that I put
myself out there like that on aregular basis.
And I have to go with thatbecause this is scary.
(35:47):
And for those that don't thinkthat this is scary, it is that
this is scary, it is.
I have to tell you every singletime before I record, even
though I've been doing this forfour years.
I get a little anxiety everysingle time because and Karen
will attest to this this this isvery, this is hard, because
(36:13):
this is vulnerable and because Imeet with each and every one of
my guests before record.
And I said, we have to do thiswith transparency and
vulnerability, or else itdoesn't work and I'm putting a
(36:33):
piece of me and Karen's puttinga piece of her, and we're
standing out here vulnerablynaked every single time but it's
worth doing, yes, and the thingis, it's not the norm, no, and
that's why you were met withcrickets, right, and that's why
it's like when people judge them.
Caren (36:53):
I think, by the way, all judgment is self-judgment, but,
that being said, people are notused to people being vulnerable
and honest, because it's thefake it till you make it right.
It's that we've all heard thatit's the fake it till you make
it.
And, like we talked to bring itback to talking about earlier,
we're working moms and we'resupposed to try it all up in a
bone.
We're supposed to be happyabout it.
(37:14):
And one of the things I thinkis very interesting in the last
few years is the fact thatpeople are just like I'm mad as
hell and I'm not going to takeit anymore, and they are being
more out there and they arebeing more honest and they are
being more fruitful in the factof you know what?
Yeah, this shit is hard fromtime to time.
(37:35):
You know I mean you don't wantto put.
You know I'm not going to getinto, I was going to go on a
tantrum, I'm not going there.
But you know, and I think youknow, we live in a system, we
live in a world where everythingis so quick and sometimes
that's good and sometimes that'sbad.
You know what I mean and peoplejust will say what they have to
(37:59):
say good, bad or indifferent.
And the way I look at it now islike you know what God freaking
bless For real, like you knowwhat.
How cool is that?
Like we live in a world wherethat could happen.
Do people need to calm downfrom time to time?
Sure, but whatever, you knowwhat I mean, I don't need to let
it affect me.
So, like your point, you didn'tlet the crickets you know,
(38:25):
maybe there's a little bit, butit's like it didn't stop you
from saying it.
You felt the need to say it andyou said it.
And right now you know mentalhealth I'm not talking, you know
.
Mental health is, is like, isvery much talked about a lot
more, and I just think womenactually don't think I know
women need to support oneanother.
Okay, we really need to supportone another, because one of the
(38:47):
things I'm working throughbecause my you know it's it's
your healing evolving growing.
Is it no ed at the end?
It's your healing evolvinggrowing.
There's no E-D at the end.
It's an I-N-G, it's an ongoing,ever going process Was the fact
that, like how ostracized I wasas a working mom, like the
guilt that I had, and like thistime of year, I see a lot of
posts about the fact that it'sthe end of the school year.
(39:07):
Here in New York we still moveschool till the end of June and
the parents you know, I spokewith the LinkedIn yesterday
about you know, working moms.
I see you, I feel you, I knowyou're trying to take things off
.
There's a million things to dowhen you go to your kids and
blah, blah, blah and, like youknow, give yourself grace and
take one step at a time.
And I was like I'm obsessedwith this post.
Thank you for putting that outthere.
I loved it Because it's likeagain giving the, because we try
(39:30):
to be everywhere old and I didthis.
I was counting my days, likehow many PTO days did I have?
How many PTO days did myex-husband have?
All the things for the schoolyears, because I never wanted to
miss those types of moments andI thankfully did it in some
cases.
That just came up on.
My memory of Facebook memory wasmy daughter's.
I forgot there was some sort ofevent for my daughter.
(39:53):
I think it was her senior yearin Duke High School that I was
going to miss because of BarryManilow concert.
I'd be like go to Barry Manilowconcert, you'll love him go.
But I had guilt about going tothe Barry Manilow concert
because I was a working mom andI was like you know what I'm
saying?
There was a lot of that pushand pull and all that stuff and
like.
But here I am on a podcasttalking about that and I didn't
(40:17):
and like I think these are and Iput it on Facebook and people
are like no, go to Barry Manilow, there was no shame in it.
And that made me feel so goodbecause I was like oh my God,
and that's where we are.
I think we really just need tosupport each other and love on
one another and be like peoplewant to be seen and heard and
just like yeah, I see you and Ifeel you and I understand you.
Some days it's easy, some daysit's not, and even in your case,
(40:39):
empty nester or not, we are allgoing through some sort of a
transition.
How do we handle thattransition?
You know what I mean?
And when we have people likemyself who can help, or just
even people that you can justtalk to.
How great is that?
Audra (41:00):
Yeah, bottom line is that we need each other Right
and we need to stop being silentand stoic, because there's no
stoicism in motherhood, there'sno stoicism in being working
moms.
The age of that is over.
This is hard To quote, karen.
(41:21):
This shit is hard, it isdifficult.
We cannot do this by ourselves,cannot do this by ourselves.
And here's a not so well-knownsecret, or one that I have not
(41:42):
talked about, is that, yes, I'ma working mom.
When my kids were older, myhusband went back to work.
I continued to travel.
I could not have done my jobwithout my friends.
I cannot tell you how manytimes my friends picked my kids
up from school, took them tosports, fed them.
(42:03):
I could not have done itwithout them.
I could not have done itwithout them.
So lean on each other, talk toeach other.
Hell, if you need to talk to me, reach out to Karen.
(42:28):
Don't keep it to yourselvesanymore.
Don't pretend you got it alldown because I didn't.
I still don't.
Karen doesn't.
She still doesn't Talk to eachother, please.
Don't.
Karen doesn't.
She still doesn't Talk to eachother, please.
That's what this particularconversation is all about.
That's what Karen's entirebusiness is about.
So, karen, before I let you go.
I want to make sure thateverybody knows how they can
(42:49):
connect with you.
Where can they reach you?
Caren (42:51):
You can reach me on Facebook.
Karen Shagren, s-c-h-a-g-r-e-n.
Cooper.
By the way, I'm C-A-R-E-N funfact so if you're going to look
for Kate, don't do that.
And my LinkedIn is the samething.
Karen C-A-R-E-N,s-c-h-a-g-r-e-n.
Cooper, friend me and when youfriend me, orta's podcast, so I
(43:11):
know who you are and then we canchat from there.
Audra (43:15):
I will make sure, as always, all of these links are
in the show notes.
So look in the show notes.
That's where all the links willbe, so you'll link them
directly from there.
Go to the show notes links.
Make it easy.
Karen, you have been a delight.
This has been a wonderfulconversation, as always.
We typically plan somethingahead of time and it goes a
(43:36):
different direction, but itusually goes a better direction
than even we planned.
So, karen, thank you so muchfor joining me today.
I have thoroughly, thoroughlyenjoyed getting to know you and
absolutely loved ourconversation today and thank you
.
Caren (43:49):
This was.
I'm obsessed with what you'redoing, with this podcast and
like in the world, so thank youfor what you're doing and this
podcast and like in the world.
So thank you for what you'redoing and thank you for having
me today.
This was amazing.
Audra (43:59):
Well, thank you again.
Thank you so much for your timeand thank you for being here.
Thank you and thank you allonce again for being here, and
we'll see you again next time.
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week we're going to talkabout a topic that we absolutely
do not talk about enough.
This week we're going to speakwith a former Corporate America
employee, turned entrepreneur,karen Cooper, and she is a
Corporate Trauma RecoverySpecialist.
Let that sink in for a moment.
(00:22):
Corporate America TraumaRecovery Specialist, she's
incredibly passionate abouthelping women heal from the
shackles of corporate America.
Having been a working momherself, she knows the firsthand
of the trauma behind being incorporate America and how it
plays a unique role in the lifeof a working mom.
(00:43):
Through her signature program,unscrew Yourself, she helps
women empower themselves and howto harness the power within
them so they can show upconfidently and authentically
and empower their unique andbadass selves.
It is my honor and my pleasureto introduce Karen.
Karen, thank you so much forbeing here and welcome to the
(01:06):
show.
Thank you so much for having mehere today, karen.
I am so excited for you to behere and first of all, right out
of the gate, let's talk aboutthe elephant in the room
corporate trauma.
I don't think anybody has saidthat out loud.
I think we've whispered aboutit.
(01:26):
I think that we might haveconsidered that topic, but why
don't you define what'scorporate?
Caren (01:37):
trauma To me.
My definition of corporatetrauma is this it's partly the
hustle culture, so there's a lotof variations to the definition
.
Okay, it's the hustle culture.
It's like the hustle culture,so there's a lot of variations
to the definition.
Okay, it's the hustle culture.
It's like I have to get thingsdone, I have to prove myself and
I have to work really hard toget things done and I have to
keep going to get things doneand I can't sit still because I
have to get things done.
So that's part of the traumaand that carries over into like
(01:59):
life and business and thingslike that.
And the other trauma as aworking mom was the ostracizing
of being having to leave at fiveo'clock to pick up my kids from
daycare, the being looked up.
My kids are 22 and 18.
So when when there was not alot of flexibility in the
workplace back then, so thetrauma was being expected to
(02:22):
literally do it all, be it alland have it all and smile at the
end of it all and be okay withit all.
Audra (02:32):
Let's scale it back and talk about that, and that's what
we're actually here to talkabout.
Is that working moms?
We don't.
I'm a working mom.
My kids now are 27 and 24.
I'm a working mom.
(03:10):
My kids now are 27 and 24.
They're a little bit older thanyours.
Where it was the culture whenmy kids were little?
Say out loud that, while I lovemy children and I am so proud
of my children, being a mom wasnot enough for me.
I absolutely want and enjoy mycareer and wanted to have a
career, but also wanted to havechildren, and trying to have
(03:32):
both is difficult and I'm notalone.
You wanted to have both too.
You wanted to have both.
An identity that encompasseshaving a career and children
(03:53):
Both an identity thatencompasses having a career and
children.
Caren (03:58):
And you had children in an age as same as mine, where
there was no support, and it wasinteresting because I was like
I'll climb the corporate ladder.
And then when I got pregnant, Iwas like I don't know.
So my thought process shifted alittle bit and in my case, I
had to go back to work.
Like I wasn't sure that Iwanted what I you know what I
mean.
Like, in my case, I was like Iwant to work, but I don't know
(04:19):
that I want to work.
I think I want to be home.
It was like a lot of back andforth for myself and, quite
honestly, I resented myex-husband because he didn't
make enough for me to stay home.
So there's that.
And I went back to work when mydaughter was 10 weeks old, and
(04:41):
this was a month and a halfafter 9-11 happened and I live
in New York and it was reallyreally, really, really hard and
nobody, there was no preparationfor going back to work.
Like let's ignore, like theworking part of it, like having
to be a mother and to go back towork.
It's a very, regardless ofwhether you want to or not.
(05:02):
There's a lot self-imposedguilt, societal guilt, a lot
going on and it's like there'sno preparation for that.
And so, yeah, it was reallythere was no support in the
sense of I didn't feel like Ican tell people that I was going
to basically lose my crap andmaybe in a matter of minutes,
(05:22):
like I totally thought mydaughter was going to call the
woman who owned the daycarecenter, mom, like I legitimately
thought this who was I tellingthat to?
You know what I mean?
I had support in the sense ofparents and other people to
watch her when she got sickevery five minutes because she
was in daycare so young.
But there was no support.
Mindset wise and mentally wiseof Holy crap, you're a working
(05:48):
mom, and even that commercialbecause you're like my age and I
remember I bring home the bacon, I fry it up in a pan.
Audra (05:56):
I know that very well.
I've talked about that manytimes.
Caren (06:00):
I hate that commercial and I used to love it, like
that's the thing I used to loveit, I'm the thing I used to love
it.
I'm like god, yeah, women cando everything we can, but it's
like the expectation is that weshould be.
My whole problem was is that,as a working mom, I was
ostracized if I worked.
I was ostracized if I didn'twork.
Like I was ostracized for beinga working mom, and that was
(06:21):
that was the part that pissed meoff, because it's like you know
what, by the way, fun fact that22 and 18 and standing upright,
yay, you know, yeah, and one'sa college graduate, one's a
student to be a student graduate, and they're good as humans.
So my working didn't affect mebeing a parent in that sense.
You know what I mean.
Audra (06:41):
And I think people know exactly what you mean.
Yeah, I know exactly what youmean, but there was no one to
talk to about this no one.
And like you, I was in a careerwhere and still am I made more
money than my husband still do.
And at one point my husband wasa stay-at-home dad and I don't
(07:07):
regret it for one minute because, quite frankly, he was at that
time, at the ages that they were, he was the better parent to
stay at home with them.
But there's a part of me thatwishes that I could have.
I really do.
I don't know how well I wouldhave handled it, but I never got
the chance to find out, right,you know?
(07:29):
So there's that part of me thatI wish I could have found out,
but there was never thatopportunity.
And there's also, in this crazycareer that I have and I've
traveled for my job.
Do you know the question that Ihate the most when I travel.
Caren (07:50):
Something about leaving your kids, I'm sure.
Audra (07:52):
Yes, who's with your kids?
Their dad, their dad?
Do you know that none of mymale counterparts were ever
asked that question who's withyour kids?
But also, when I travel, do youknow that I couldn't just
(08:14):
because I'm the mom, I couldn'tjust worry about packing my
stuff up and getting ready to go.
I had to worry about everythingelse and then pack myself up
and get ready to go.
Right, I mean, part of that isself-imposed Right, absolutely,
(08:34):
and part of it is, you know, myjob.
Part of it is societalexpectations and we're talking
about this.
We can't win, and we also don'ttalk to each other about this.
And maybe that's part of thisconversation is because we don't
(08:58):
talk to each other about this,because there is this level of
shame and guilt and I don't haveit all together.
I'm losing my mind and I'mshameful because I'm losing my
mind and I'm supposed to have itall together but I don't.
And I feel guilty and I feelresentful.
(09:18):
But I'm supposed to feel likeI've got it all together and I'm
supposed to feel grateful, andI'm supposed to feel grateful,
I'm supposed to feel all thesethings, but I don't.
So I'm just going to sit herein silence and be in pain by
myself, because the expectationis that I'm just supposed to be
happy.
Caren (09:39):
Yes, and what I'm going to do right now is give you
permission to not be okay.
And what I'm going to do rightnow is give you permission to
not be okay, because guess whatFun fact, let's just be honest,
parenting is a trip Period.
Yes, hard stuff.
Working, not working doesn'tfreaking matter.
Parenting is a.
It's like entrepreneurship.
(09:59):
It's a trip and a half.
It's like a rollercoaster.
It's like a ride.
You don't know what the hell'sgonna happen.
It's twists and turns, everyfreaking place known to man.
So give yourself permission tobe like you know what.
Yeah, today's hard.
Today's our day.
A lot of emotions, there's alot of things going on with
parenting.
It's hard.
So I'm gonna hereby give youpermission to and not have any
(10:20):
shame or guilt surrounding thisthat the fact that it is hard,
because it is from time to timeit is.
My mentor, tracy Litt, saidsomething once on her own
podcast when she was talking tosomeone one of her guests and
she said you know, if you're aparent and you haven't felt like
you want to tie your kid uponce in a while, you're not
really a parent.
I thought that was the funniestthing ever because it's.
(10:43):
You know what what I mean.
We're freaking human.
Yes, I do mindset work.
Yes, this is what I do for aliving.
You know what I mean.
But like we're also freakinghuman guys.
It's hilarious work, parentingand parenting, and it, you know,
22 and 18 is even more.
You know.
My neighbor said this one smallkids, small problems, big kids,
big problems.
(11:03):
Man did that.
God is that a whole thing?
True, and I think that's partof the problem is that, you know
, I 100% had self.
So there was the societalinfluence that, by the way, at
the time I didn't realize that'swhat it was, but there was 100%
self-imposed guilt.
I would come home right fromwork and like, spend time with
(11:28):
my daughter and play with herand do all these things because
I had such guilt not being withher all day that when she was,
you know, when she was growingup, she was hard for her to play
by herself because I wasplaying with her all.
Like I had so much guilt, like Ididn't leave her alone and part
of my misogast was like I was alatchkey kid, right.
So like I was nine years oldwhen my mother went back to work
(11:50):
, my brother was 13 and my dadwas already working and you know
.
And so she growing up, and wegrew up in a co-op apartment in
brooklyn and I literally had ashoelace with a key around my
neck and I would come home and Ihave to call her because you
know, I'm, you know, 55 yearsold.
So back in the days of yore wedidn't have internet just saying
(12:10):
and, and like I had a callerand she knew where I was, and
then people in the neighborhoodknew who I was.
I don't even think they knew myname.
They knew, like, who I belongedto.
I'm not even joking, like talkabout trauma, but long story
short short.
Like I was a latchkey.
So because of I was a latchkeyand I was a working mom myself,
I was like, well, shit, I haveto do something, so I have to
play with her and Iovercompensated you know what I
(12:32):
mean.
And and then the expectation was, and then it was like you know,
I would get that too.
Like I wouldn't ask, I didn'talways travel for work, but like
when I would go out, because Iworked in the advertising
industry and so we would go out,we would have things and
whatever, and who's with yourkid?
And I would have guilt byleaving her.
But here's a fun fact.
We're also like shoot, we'repeople like I'm Karen.
(12:54):
I may be my kid, I may be momand I may be you know all these
other things, but I'm also Karenand I think a lot of times
especially well as working momswe forget that like we're Audra,
we're Karen, we're our ownindividual human and we are
allowed to go out and be people.
Because if we don't which Ididn't, even though I did I was
(13:17):
still a massive people pleaser,so I overcompensated in
different ways and I burntmyself out and I was miserable.
Audra (13:23):
So what gives in different ways and I brought
myself out and I was miserable.
So what gives it's?
You know, I've been askingmyself that, for really, I know
I had this giant exhale becauseI've asked myself this a lot,
especially now because I'm anempty nester.
And that's a weird trip too,because when you pour yourself
into these two humans for thelast 25 plus years and then
(13:46):
those two humans have theaudacity to grow up and leave
and you're like what do I do now?
Yes, you know, it's really.
And even as a working mom, evenas a working mom I have a career
that I designed to be flexiblearound these two humans.
(14:09):
Right, and I did that in such away because I am the oldest
child of four, also a latchkeykid.
I am the oldest of four, theoldest daughter.
I am the oldest of four, theoldest daughter, and so it was
my job to take care of theyounger three.
Not only to take care of theyounger three, to take care of
(14:30):
my parents as well.
So I didn't have much of achildhood.
I really did not.
So I made it my job, with mychildren, to make sure that they
had a childhood.
I wanted them to be kids.
Yes, I wanted them to be kids.
Yes, I absolutely wanted themto be kids, yep, so I guarded
(14:53):
that with my life because I knewthat childhood was absolutely
precious Yep, so I designed mywhole career around that very
tenet I want you to be kids.
And I've had a wonderful career,a great career, and I've put up
(15:15):
with a lot of crap.
Like I said, remember, westarted this conversation about
corporate trauma and obviouslyhas been become a therapy
session, so hopefully everybodyhas hung on for the ride.
So hang in there, guys.
Um, so I've, I've designed thiswhole thing with that in mind,
(15:36):
and now they've had the audacityto grow up and leave.
So apparently you've done areally good we my husband and
I've done a really good job ofraising them and they've left.
And so now I ask the questionsof okay, now, what?
Right now?
Now I, now I get to definemyself who, what the heck, what,
(16:00):
who, what, where, how and why,and and it's, it's an, it's an
interesting thing.
And now I'm trying to shed awayall of these societal messaging
that now I've come to discover,especially through this process
of the last four years of doingthis podcast, that these
(16:20):
societal messaging is allbullshit, quite frankly, yeah,
and that a lot of it doesn't fitme.
Correct, a lot of it doesn'tand, quite frankly, a lot of it
doesn't fit all of us Right, andwe're all trying to shed this
(16:46):
Right and try to define who weare, and I guess that's part of
the point of what you do.
Caren (16:52):
Yes, uh-huh, it is, and I want to.
I want to share and thank youfor sharing that.
But to your point aboutidentity you mentioned you know
who you are.
Back in 2018, I'd gotten laidoff from a job and I was turning
50.
And I was like, who the hell amI?
I had my worth and I'm suremaybe people can resonate with
(17:15):
this.
I had my worth very much tiedinto being a working mom, like I
wore like a freaking badge ofhonor, like a badge of honor,
and I'm not unhappy that I didthat.
But when I lost my job in 2018,I was like, oh crap, who am I
If I am not a working mother?
Part of the work I do is thatyou are enough and whole as you
are and that your worth isn'ttied to anything.
(17:37):
So I want to, you know and thatlends to kind of what you're
saying as well but one of my I'mhalf an empty nester.
My daughter is, is not, youknow, she's out and about, you
know having a life, and my sonis graduating high school next
week, um, so I'm half an emptynester and I'm separated.
So it's like, oh, who's karen?
Without like being a parent andlike who's karen?
(17:59):
What does she like?
What does she want to do?
What does she?
You know what I'm saying.
And to your point, audra, likewe can look at it from the lens
of a crap and and look at itfrom the lens of negatively, or
we can just be like what can youknow what?
As it is corporate trauma,parenting, all this is an
adventure.
Why not look at it as anadventure at this point?
(18:21):
Right, so there, I just want tosay that because, even though
you know, you're still, you'restill a working mom because
you're still like the mom,you're still a mom.
Just because they're emptynesters and they're not home
doesn't mean that you're not aworking mom and the other thing.
And then I'll go back to what Ido and how I help.
But like it takes a village.
And that's so true.
Because, to your point abouthaving your kids, having a
(18:42):
childhood, like I said inadvertising, when I was working,
there was at the time, therewasn't flexibility in the
workplace, but I, like you, waslike my kids want, you know,
because I had a great childhood,because I was outside playing
all the freaking time, like Ihad it.
You know what I mean.
I didn't have to, like you, Iwas outside playing and I went
up to Monticello in the summersand playing, you know, man, on
(19:05):
the stupid shop.
It was fantastic, you know whatI mean.
So my kids were like you know,and I live in a neighborhood
like that you go ring the bell,you go play outside, like people
think I'm insane.
I'm like, no, you go playoutside, like that's how it
works.
You come in when the lights godown.
You know, lights go on, likethat's how I grew up.
So, but my kids but I put mykids were in things.
So my daughter started off indancing school and then they she
(19:27):
was in softball and he was inbaseball.
My children, but it takes avillage because I couldn't leave
to get them.
So other people, like othersports parents, were helping us
out all the time and that's howmy kids were able to have a
childhood in a sense of beingable to do extracurriculars
because other people werehelping.
And so, even though I didn'thave support in terms of how I
(19:49):
was feeling per se, at least Ihad support in other areas.
So that made up for it.
But struggling back to now whatI do, I realized that the
societal expectations like youin the last few years.
The societal, what we've beenfed and all of these things are
transferring over into so manyaspects of our life.
And so I'm an entrepreneur now,full time because of the
(20:12):
pandemic.
My contract with my financeposition ended when COVID hit
and I realized as anentrepreneur I carried over a
lot of that stuff into myentrepreneurship the working so
hard, the hustling, the wait.
I work for myself now so I haveno discipline to actually sit
and do anything because I wasworking for someone else and I
(20:33):
had the discipline when I wasworking for someone else to do
things, but like when you workfor yourself, you don't have to.
I didn't, I'm being honest.
And also the trauma of I mean,you know, a lot of our traumas
are from their childhood, right,and so they come into play in
the workplace.
So my people pleasing and mycodependency was 100% in the
(20:55):
workplace, right.
So I was afraid I was going tolose my job.
I was working and that's wherethe proving energy comes in and
all that stuff.
So the hustle culture is fed toyou and then you're codependent
and you're people pleasing.
Add that on top of it and youwork.
I was working till one, twoo'clock in the morning and I
wasn't getting overtime orgetting compensated for it and I
(21:16):
was taking time away from mykids and there was guilt and
there was shame and there wasand there was this push and pull
.
And so now it's my mission to atalk about this and be honest
about it.
And, fun fact, I am not knockingcorporate at all, by the way,
I'm not but it's who do you?
You know, I wrote a post aboutthis the other day right, when
(21:39):
you're a business owner and yourbusiness isn't working, you
hire people to help with yourbusiness.
Right, when you know you hiredifferent people to help you
with different things.
Who do you hire to help youwith you?
That's where I come in, becausethe shame, the guilt, the
self-doubt, the impostersyndrome are people going to
(21:59):
find me out?
Right, because you're comingfrom corporate, you're turning
into an entrepreneur or you havea side hustle.
I had a side hustle when I wasworking in corporate America.
That was the other thing.
I had a side hustle when I wasworking in corporate america.
That was the other thing.
I had.
This I told someone working incorporate america and it's like
wait a minute, do you have time?
Are you going to be able to doall the things.
And it's like, first of all, hi, I'm a mom, so you damn
freaking right, I can do all thedamn things.
(22:20):
Just based off the fact that Ibirthed two kids, you know how
much information is on.
Is it a mom's brain just in andof itself, just because that's
that's part of what we do?
That that's not societal.
Like I realize this.
My ex, like I, would say youknow, do you know when they need
doctors?
No, because he didn't thinkabout it.
It didn't make him a bad father.
You know what I mean.
So I want to I've always beenone to buck the trend too.
(22:44):
If you can't tell by listening,right now I want to.
You know, throw everything on adime and be like you know what.
No, we need to take care of you.
You have this trauma, that thatmaybe in your childhood that
carried over into your working.
And then you know the work-lifebalance, which there wasn't any
.
You know the, the, the, the.
You know inflexibility, thefreedom of being able to do what
(23:08):
you want when you want, butalso not having the discipline
to do what you want when youwant, but also not having the
discipline to do what you wantwhen you want All the mindset
crap, the mind fuckery, Icouldn't help that.
One comes out and how do youdeal with all that?
And that's where I come in.
That's what I help you with.
Audra (23:24):
You help make that transition of and actually
unlearn everything that welearned, especially the, this
generation of women, becausemost of my audience are Gen Xers
Actually, most of my audienceis a reflection of me.
We were a bunch of Gen Xersthat were raised in the 70s and
80s.
(23:44):
A lot of us were latchkey kids.
A lot of us are, the areoverachievers because, honestly,
that is what we were trained tobe.
We're the generation of takeyour daughter to work day.
We went to work with our dadson that day and they didn't set
up cupcakes and and fun thingsto do for us on that day.
(24:06):
We literally went to work withour dads and sat next to our
dads as they did their job Atleast, that's what I did with my
dad and I sat at the desk withmy dad and watched him do his
job, which was my dad had acorporate job and it was a lot
(24:27):
of calls, it was a lot ofmeetings and it was a lot of
what I do today, if you want toknow the truth.
And that is what I watched himdo, and I think that that is a
lot of what my female colleaguesand counterparts did.
They watched their dad do this,and so we just emulated them.
(24:52):
We didn't know a different way,we weren't taught a different
way, so we emulated what ourfathers did.
But then also we decided tobecome moms and we meshed the
two together Because we didn'tknow another way.
(25:12):
And so you come in and go.
We have to unlearn all of that,because what we took on was two
roles.
We meshed on two roles, we tooktwo roles on our shoulders and
we expected them to be able tosurvive in the same space,
(25:37):
exactly the way they were fed tous, and expect them to play
nice together and exist.
No wonder we're tired.
Caren (25:46):
Right, I mean I mean and and I I went to to my dad was a
photographer, so I would gowith him and then.
But also like when there wastime off from school and my
parents couldn't take the timeoff right, because working moms
you only get a certain amount oftime.
You know, working parents veryyou know, generally get a
certain time, balance of timeoff.
I would go to work with my mom.
(26:08):
My mom was a secretary for thefederal government, so I was
typing all the time.
You know what I mean.
So I was, I was at work, likewhen school break was happening,
I was.
It was not even just takingyour daughter to work day, it
was like there's nobody.
You know what I mean.
It was, it was some of that aswell.
And so, yes, so I come in andand and re literally rewire
(26:29):
every program from what youcurrently are and, by the way,
there's nothing wrong with youat the moment, you're whole and
enough as you are.
I wanted to say that outrightOkay, nobody's broken, none of
that is happening.
It's a lot of when I talk abouttrauma.
It's okay, it's stems from even.
You know, you're a little kidand you wanted to go play with
(26:50):
someone on the playground andthey said, no Right.
And then you're like, oh, theydon't like me, so you made
meaning out of it.
They don't like me and theydon't.
This and and that you know madeyou feel maybe unworthy and not
enough, and that carried on topretty much adulthood, not
pretty much adulthood, okay.
So that's what I mean when I saytrauma.
So it's like the event thathappened and the meaning that we
(27:11):
gave it.
The same thing happened.
So therefore, like in my case,I was a people pleaser and I was
codependent because of thingsthat happened, that I made
meaning out of it, and so,therefore, the societal
expectations, I carried theweight of that and I felt like
the need to do all of that.
And then, oh my God, and then Ididn't speak my mind in
(27:32):
corporate right.
So when I was working corporate, whatever it was told to me I
would do, even though I didn'tnecessarily love it, I had an
instance once in a job where myreview was poor and it was based
off of things that I wasn'teven doing.
So half the stuff that myreview was about was things that
I wasn't doing, and they didn'teven know the things that I was
(27:53):
doing.
Audra (27:53):
You didn't say anything to the contrary.
Caren (28:05):
I did.
However, I was still meek aboutit.
So I can't be confident in myabilities, I can't set
boundaries, I can't speak upbecause I need this job and I
think you know what I mean andmaybe you can resonate with that
.
But like that's what I'mtalking about.
So, and the expectation that Ibring home the bacon, I fry it
(28:26):
up in a pan and you know I evengot once on the baseball field,
like the nerve, you know, causeit's you know, I even got once
on the baseball field, like thenerve, you know, because you
know I live in Staten Island andit's like, you know, being a
working mom was shunned.
It was, you know, shunned.
You know what I mean and thatwas told to me.
So it's like, and so I don'thave the wherewithal, right, and
I'm sure this is what I'msaying A lot of us don't have
the wherewithal to not at theirother people's opinions and the
(28:49):
judgment and all of that thatgoes on means nothing about us
at all and that we're not broken, we're not anything, we are
whole and enough as we are.
So when I talk, we understandwhere all of the stuff came from
, right, and then we get to thecore of it.
(29:10):
And then, once we get to thecore of it and understands all
data, then we're like, okay,we're going to rewire and
reprogram.
So now you're coming out.
You know what?
Now I can speak my mind.
Now I have the confidence tospeak my mind.
Now I have the confidence toset boundaries.
Now I have the discipline tosit and do a power hour by
myself and get my work done,knowing that this is going to
bring me the freedom and thedesire and the life that I want
(29:32):
to live.
So societal expectations bedamned, and whatever it says,
all the computer, whatever theycall the people like George, and
all that, because everybody hasalways something to say all the
time.
It doesn't matter, it doesn'tmatter.
And also, guys, as a working mom, you love your kids.
Whether or not you want to tiethem up on it, you know, every
once in a while or not, we loveour kids and we love our kids
(29:55):
fiercely.
That's enough.
That's enough.
There's no shame, there's noguilt.
You know doing it to yourselfor otherwise, that's what
working with me will bring youalso, and the awareness that may
you know what, it may come upfrom time to time, but you know
(30:18):
what, it's no big deal.
Okay, cool, it's just datawhat's happening in my life, to
understand that this is what'sgoing on.
You know what did my boss sayto me that pissed me off?
Maybe, or you know what my bosswill say something that pissed
me off.
Who cares?
Because office politics isoffice politics.
It is what it is.
It's always going to be there.
But what if you have theconfidence to say you know what,
I hear what you're saying, Iunderstand this, but can we work
together in this capacity?
(30:38):
Right, even if you still like,in your case, you're still
working.
You know it's just how do youshow up?
Just show up, not have thisweight on you of like shame,
guilt, self-doubt and people aregoing to find me out, all that
stuff, but just show up and belike you know what?
Hey, I'm bold.
There's confident, unique me.
Make it as it is.
(31:00):
I'm fabulous, Love it.
Thank you very much.
Audra (31:10):
As I have gotten older and as I've been meeting women
over the last four years, likeyourself, I've started to
basically it has shocked me thatit has led me on this journey
of self-discovery and peelingback layers like you're
describing.
And I've come to therealization is that people are
always going to judge you.
People are always going to talkabout you, they're always going
(31:33):
to think you're too much ofthis and not enough of that, and
they're always going to havesomething to say about you.
They might as well judge youfor how you actually are, rather
than who you think you shouldbe, rather than who you think
(31:54):
you should be, rather than whoyou pretend to be, rather than
who you send as yourrepresentative.
So I have been making it a veryconcerted effort to make sure
that I show up as me, speak mymind when I need to, and speak
(32:14):
up for myself when necessaryRight, and, more importantly,
speak up for others who haven'tyet discovered their voices.
All of that is scary.
I'm not going to tell you thatit's not because it is because
it is very uncomfortable after alifetime of trying to be what I
(32:45):
thought I was supposed to beExactly.
Once you step out of that box.
It's terrifying but absolutelynecessary, and it's the most
authentic thing I have ever done.
And how do you feel?
Most of the time?
(33:08):
Really good and petrified, yeah.
Caren (33:11):
But worth it.
That's gorgeous and that, myfriend, is exactly the point.
Okay, that is exactly the point, because here's a fun fact when
you, our bodies and minds aredesigned to keep us safe in the
same.
So the minute you move theneedle in any direction, the
mind is going to be like danger,danger, danger.
Let's work to get her back thesame.
(33:31):
The uncomfortableness iscontinuing to do the different.
I also teach you how to dealwith that, by the way, side note
.
But to your point, audra, I'mso excited and proud of you for
doing that exactly the way youare, because it's embracing the
unknown, it's being scared anddoing it anyway Because the fear
, it's a beautiful thing,because it means your body's
(33:52):
working the way it's designed towork, but it's obviously what
you're destined to do at themoment.
So you continue to do it andstay in the uncomfortable,
because that's where the beautyis in the uncomfortable, in the
unknown Even when it's greetedwith silence.
Audra (34:13):
And I'll give you an example.
Yesterday I did something veryuncomfortable.
I'm in a leadership group andyesterday was the first time
where we got to introduceourselves, and it was very
informal introduce ourselves,and it was not what do you do,
(34:34):
do, but what's a fun fact aboutyourself?
And I wrestled with it and I'mlike is this, when I tell them
what I do outside of these walls?
And I thought, well, if not now, they're gonna find out.
So I might as well rip theband-aid off.
And so I explained to them whoI was, where I live and, by the
way, I have a podcast andcrickets lead balloon.
(35:02):
The response was the silence wasdeafening and I thought you
would have thought that I hadsaid something horrifying, and I
thought they either are stunnedor they're shocked that I put
(35:26):
myself out there like that on aregular basis and because the
silence was deafening.
I think it was the latter, thatthey were shocked, that I put
myself out there like that on aregular basis.
And I have to go with thatbecause this is scary.
(35:47):
And for those that don't thinkthat this is scary, it is that
this is scary, it is.
I have to tell you every singletime before I record, even
though I've been doing this forfour years.
I get a little anxiety everysingle time because and Karen
will attest to this this this isvery, this is hard, because
(36:13):
this is vulnerable and because Imeet with each and every one of
my guests before record.
And I said, we have to do thiswith transparency and
vulnerability, or else itdoesn't work and I'm putting a
(36:33):
piece of me and Karen's puttinga piece of her, and we're
standing out here vulnerablynaked every single time but it's
worth doing, yes, and the thingis, it's not the norm, no, and
that's why you were met withcrickets, right, and that's why
it's like when people judge them.
Caren (36:53):
I think, by the way, all judgment is self-judgment, but,
that being said, people are notused to people being vulnerable
and honest, because it's thefake it till you make it right.
It's that we've all heard thatit's the fake it till you make
it.
And, like we talked to bring itback to talking about earlier,
we're working moms and we'resupposed to try it all up in a
bone.
We're supposed to be happyabout it.
(37:14):
And one of the things I thinkis very interesting in the last
few years is the fact thatpeople are just like I'm mad as
hell and I'm not going to takeit anymore, and they are being
more out there and they arebeing more honest and they are
being more fruitful in the factof you know what?
Yeah, this shit is hard fromtime to time.
(37:35):
You know I mean you don't wantto put.
You know I'm not going to getinto, I was going to go on a
tantrum, I'm not going there.
But you know, and I think youknow, we live in a system, we
live in a world where everythingis so quick and sometimes
that's good and sometimes that'sbad.
You know what I mean and peoplejust will say what they have to
(37:59):
say good, bad or indifferent.
And the way I look at it now islike you know what God freaking
bless For real, like you knowwhat.
How cool is that?
Like we live in a world wherethat could happen.
Do people need to calm downfrom time to time?
Sure, but whatever, you knowwhat I mean, I don't need to let
it affect me.
So, like your point, you didn'tlet the crickets you know,
(38:25):
maybe there's a little bit, butit's like it didn't stop you
from saying it.
You felt the need to say it andyou said it.
And right now you know mentalhealth I'm not talking, you know
.
Mental health is, is like, isvery much talked about a lot
more, and I just think womenactually don't think I know
women need to support oneanother.
Okay, we really need to supportone another, because one of the
(38:47):
things I'm working throughbecause my you know it's it's
your healing evolving growing.
Is it no ed at the end?
It's your healing evolvinggrowing.
There's no E-D at the end.
It's an I-N-G, it's an ongoing,ever going process Was the fact
that, like how ostracized I wasas a working mom, like the
guilt that I had, and like thistime of year, I see a lot of
posts about the fact that it'sthe end of the school year.
(39:07):
Here in New York we still moveschool till the end of June and
the parents you know, I spokewith the LinkedIn yesterday
about you know, working moms.
I see you, I feel you, I knowyou're trying to take things off
.
There's a million things to dowhen you go to your kids and
blah, blah, blah and, like youknow, give yourself grace and
take one step at a time.
And I was like I'm obsessedwith this post.
Thank you for putting that outthere.
I loved it Because it's likeagain giving the, because we try
(39:30):
to be everywhere old and I didthis.
I was counting my days, likehow many PTO days did I have?
How many PTO days did myex-husband have?
All the things for the schoolyears, because I never wanted to
miss those types of moments andI thankfully did it in some
cases.
That just came up on.
My memory of Facebook memory wasmy daughter's.
I forgot there was some sort ofevent for my daughter.
(39:53):
I think it was her senior yearin Duke High School that I was
going to miss because of BarryManilow concert.
I'd be like go to Barry Manilowconcert, you'll love him go.
But I had guilt about going tothe Barry Manilow concert
because I was a working mom andI was like you know what I'm
saying?
There was a lot of that pushand pull and all that stuff and
like.
But here I am on a podcasttalking about that and I didn't
(40:17):
and like I think these are and Iput it on Facebook and people
are like no, go to Barry Manilow, there was no shame in it.
And that made me feel so goodbecause I was like oh my God,
and that's where we are.
I think we really just need tosupport each other and love on
one another and be like peoplewant to be seen and heard and
just like yeah, I see you and Ifeel you and I understand you.
Some days it's easy, some daysit's not, and even in your case,
(40:39):
empty nester or not, we are allgoing through some sort of a
transition.
How do we handle thattransition?
You know what I mean?
And when we have people likemyself who can help, or just
even people that you can justtalk to.
How great is that?
Audra (41:00):
Yeah, bottom line is that we need each other Right
and we need to stop being silentand stoic, because there's no
stoicism in motherhood, there'sno stoicism in being working
moms.
The age of that is over.
This is hard To quote, karen.
(41:21):
This shit is hard, it isdifficult.
We cannot do this by ourselves,cannot do this by ourselves.
And here's a not so well-knownsecret, or one that I have not
(41:42):
talked about, is that, yes, I'ma working mom.
When my kids were older, myhusband went back to work.
I continued to travel.
I could not have done my jobwithout my friends.
I cannot tell you how manytimes my friends picked my kids
up from school, took them tosports, fed them.
(42:03):
I could not have done itwithout them.
I could not have done itwithout them.
So lean on each other, talk toeach other.
Hell, if you need to talk to me, reach out to Karen.
(42:28):
Don't keep it to yourselvesanymore.
Don't pretend you got it alldown because I didn't.
I still don't.
Karen doesn't.
She still doesn't Talk to eachother, please.
Don't.
Karen doesn't.
She still doesn't Talk to eachother, please.
That's what this particularconversation is all about.
That's what Karen's entirebusiness is about.
So, karen, before I let you go.
I want to make sure thateverybody knows how they can
(42:49):
connect with you.
Where can they reach you?
Caren (42:51):
You can reach me on Facebook.
Karen Shagren, s-c-h-a-g-r-e-n.
Cooper.
By the way, I'm C-A-R-E-N funfact so if you're going to look
for Kate, don't do that.
And my LinkedIn is the samething.
Karen C-A-R-E-N,s-c-h-a-g-r-e-n.
Cooper, friend me and when youfriend me, orta's podcast, so I
(43:11):
know who you are and then we canchat from there.
Audra (43:15):
I will make sure, as always, all of these links are
in the show notes.
So look in the show notes.
That's where all the links willbe, so you'll link them
directly from there.
Go to the show notes links.
Make it easy.
Karen, you have been a delight.
This has been a wonderfulconversation, as always.
We typically plan somethingahead of time and it goes a
(43:36):
different direction, but itusually goes a better direction
than even we planned.
So, karen, thank you so muchfor joining me today.
I have thoroughly, thoroughlyenjoyed getting to know you and
absolutely loved ourconversation today and thank you
.
Caren (43:49):
This was.
I'm obsessed with what you'redoing, with this podcast and
like in the world, so thank youfor what you're doing and this
podcast and like in the world.
So thank you for what you'redoing and thank you for having
me today.
This was amazing.
Audra (43:59):
Well, thank you again.
Thank you so much for your timeand thank you for being here.
Thank you and thank you allonce again for being here, and
we'll see you again next time.
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