June 3, 2025 • 54 mins
What would you trade for more time? After 25 years prosecuting high-profile cases in Minneapolis, Debbie Russell made a decision many dream of but few execute – walking away from her legal career at 55, trading a full pension for what she calls "full-time freedom."
Her journey represents a profound lesson in the power of choice and the courage required to author your own next chapter. Since her twenties, Debbie had been planning this transition, understanding that her legal career would be just one segment of a multifaceted life. This wasn't about escaping a job she hated, but about honoring a promise she'd made to her younger self.
The path wasn't without emotional hurdles. Debbie describes the strange experience of a virtual retirement party during the pandemic that felt like "attending her own wake." This speaks to the process of "unbecoming" that precedes becoming something new – shedding an identity cultivated over decades involves genuine grief, even when you're ready to move forward.
Through writing her award-winning book "Crossing 51: Not Quite a Memoir," Debbie found purpose in connecting her midlife transformation with her grandfather's parallel journey at the same age. His story – becoming addicted to Demerol while working as a successful physician, then dying at just 59 – taught her that time is finite and not guaranteed. This realization infuses her current life with mindful appreciation for each day.
Most remarkably, after moving to a 10-acre rural property, Debbie found herself feeling less lonely than ever before. Despite having fewer people physically around her, her relationships became intentional rather than circumstantial. Her story offers profound insights for anyone facing midlife transitions – whether through retirement, empty nesting, or simply questioning "what's next?"
Visit https://debbie-russell.com to learn more about her journey and connect about her book. What chapter will you write next?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audra (00:00):
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week, we're going to talkto another amazing, incredibly
brave woman who realized thatshe had the power of choice.
My guest this week is DebbieRussell, and she is an attorney
turned writer.
She spent 25 years as anassistant county attorney in
(00:21):
Minneapolis, prosecutingnumerous high-profile cases.
She also fought off severalcases of nervous breakdowns.
At age 55, debbie took an earlyretirement.
She gave up a full pension forfull-time freedom.
She now spends her precioustime writing, restoring her
(00:42):
property to a native prairie andwetlands and training her
rambunctious retrievers.
She also wrote an award-winningbook, crossing 51, not Quite a
Memoir, and released it in Juneof 2023.
It is my pleasure and my honorto introduce to you Debbie.
Debbie, thank you so much forbeing here and welcome to the
(01:03):
show.
Debbie (01:03):
Thank you so much for being here and welcome to the
show, hi, audra, and thank youso much for the opportunity to
talk with you today.
Audra (01:10):
I am really excited for you to be here, and let's just
talk about the intro.
What do you mean?
You fought off numerousbreakdowns.
I mean, when I read your bioand I even mentioned this to you
when I read that, I thought Ilaughed because I'm like I can
relate.
I feel that I don't know if shemeans this literally or
(01:32):
figuratively, because in bothcases I feel that too.
Is that being stressed out,overwhelmed and thinking can I
do this another day?
And is that what led you totake an early retirement?
Debbie (01:48):
Those are great questions because I know that
this little snippet of my biohas caused both responses and
reactions.
And I put it in there sort oftongue in cheek because the
nature of my work was really,really tough.
But during the time that I wasdoing the work I was really good
(02:11):
at compartmentalizing, and so Iwould do the work and I would
go home and I would play with mydogs or I'd work in my garden.
And it was only after I'd hadsome time away from it where I
started to realize just howextraordinarily stressful it was
.
It was not that that caused meto take an early retirement.
(02:36):
I had planned from the time Istarted in the county attorney's
office as a very young lawyer Ithink I was maybe not quite 30.
And I knew that they were goingto be taking up a portion of my
salary to go towards a pensionand all I had to do was stick it
out until I was 55.
(02:57):
And I could take a pension.
Now it's quite reduced fromwhat it could have been had I
stayed until I think it's either65 or 67.
But even in my late 20s Ithought I'll do this for this
next chapter of my career andthen I'll do something else, and
(03:22):
so I, in those early days, juststarted saving money, and so
it's been an interestingadjustment, I can say, when my
pension is basically 19% of whatmy high five salary was at the
(03:43):
end of my career in the countyattorney's office.
But when I wrote that bio, itwas clear to me that for me,
time is much more valuable thanmoney.
We all need a certain amount ofmoney to get by, but I don't
need that much money.
(04:04):
What I really crave and what Ireally love is the time.
Audra (04:10):
You know, and I think that as we all get older, that's
what we all crave is we cravethe value of our time, of our
own time.
We actually start to crave thevalue of our own company because
we don't get that all that much.
We don't get to spend time withourselves that isn't distracted
(04:33):
by something else, that itisn't being pulled in a
different direction, with someother responsibility.
And you were willing toexchange commerce money for your
time and you suddenly had thispower of choice.
So when you and I first met,you told me a story about how
(04:54):
you came into writing.
You always had this desire towrite and I was actually so
impressed and moved by how yousuddenly were embraced by this
power of your own choice.
You had such a self-awarenessof all of these choices that you
(05:14):
had.
You had this self-awareness inyour late 20s and that carried
you through to your mid-50s.
And you had all of thesechoices.
But when you arrive there, whatdo you do with them?
And I'm asking you thesequestions because a lot of my
(05:36):
audience is there Now.
They may be in differentcircumstances.
You are a single woman.
You don't have children.
However, there are a lot ofpeople, a lot of women that are
listening, that are like I'mthere too, I'm in my mid fifties
and they're empty nesters.
Some of them are married, someof them aren't, but suddenly
(05:56):
they're reassessing and going.
I have choices.
What do I do with them?
What did you do with them?
Debbie (06:07):
choices.
What do I do with them?
What did you do with them?
Well, such a great question.
And you know, I started writingat a very low point in my
prosecutor career.
I was really hating my job butalso realizing I'm not going to
quit, I'm not going to go doanything else.
I'm on this plan and I can getthrough it.
(06:27):
But I need to find another wayto kind of get the thoughts out
of your head and onto paper.
And in my case, I just startedwriting some things and then I
(06:57):
started to share the blog,because at first I didn't really
want to share it.
It was just, you know my ownpersonal stuff really want to
share it.
It was just, you know, my ownpersonal stuff.
And what was so amazing aboutwhen I started to share these
things, which were at the timereally pretty vulnerable, that
people out there are justcraving that kind of connection
(07:18):
where they can say, oh my gosh,that's as you described.
You know your audience people.
We all have things that arerelatable, even though my life
might be very different fromyours.
I can write about my owninsecurities and out of all of
them you can find a couple thatyou can relate to, and I think
(07:39):
for me it helped me get out ofthis silo of loneliness that I
had started to create for myself, even though every day I was
going to work, I was interactingwith people, I had a great
social life, but because of allthe thoughts that were going
around in my head that made mefeel very, very alone.
(08:01):
So I started the blog and then Icame across this file folder of
letters that my grandfather hadwritten back and forth between
my dad and my aunt and my uncleand my grandmother when he, at
the age of 51, voluntarily puthimself into a federal locked
(08:23):
drug rehab program.
And I remember I was in my 40swhen I found the letters and I
thought these letters would makean awesome book.
And of course, I'm in my 40sand I'm busy, and you know, even
though I didn't have kids, Iwas in the midst of doing dog
training and competition, so Ihad a whole lot of other things
(08:47):
that sort of were competing formy attention, and trying to
figure out how to write a bookabout this just didn't seem like
I could get it off the ground.
I did go to one class calledhow to Publish your Book, which
seemed really, reallyintimidating, and so I thought,
well, this will be for anotherday.
(09:07):
And then, in 2016, when my dadwas accepted into hospice and I
realized that I'm going to losehim I don't know when, but I
want to make sure I knoweverything there is to know
about his family, andparticularly my grandfather, who
was a doctor.
(09:28):
He was a surgeon.
He had become addicted toDemerol.
It was a family secret, nobodytalked about it.
And then what happened wasthings that started to happen to
me in real time, as it relatedto finding out more about my dad
and his family and my ownstruggles as I hit 51, very
(09:50):
coincidentally, and that's howwe got the book title but that's
when I decided I needed to getmyself into therapy, I needed
help with everything that wasgoing on, and I think that was
going on, and I think you knowmy book documents in real time a
midlife crisis and you knowit's my own, but it's also my
(10:14):
grandfather's when he was 51.
And so what I wanted to do wassort of braid these two stories
together and then, as I'mwriting the book, figure out
what do I get out of tellingthis story, what do I get out of
living the story?
And it also documents how I'mmarching right up to my age of
(10:37):
my planned retirement, where Ihad certain ideas about what I
was going to be doing, butnothing was clear.
And for any of your audienceout there who has been caring
for an aged parent or involvedin really really compelling
family drama, dynamics, whateveryou want to call it, it's very
(11:00):
easy to just put your own life.
It's very easy to just put yourown life off to the side.
And even though I didn't havechildren, all of a sudden all my
attention was on what was goingon with my dad and all of that.
And the next thing, you know,I'm three years away from four
years away from retirement and Ididn't really have a plan.
(11:28):
And what makes this story to meso cool is the serendipity of it
all, where things happen.
People come into my life thatstart guiding me and pushing me
in certain directions and all ofa sudden, my future is starting
to come into focus.
And then the question becomes.
When you talked, audra, aboutchoices and having choices, I
(11:50):
think one of the hardest choiceswe have sometimes is do I have
the bandwidth to do this thing,opportunity, can I do it, or am
(12:12):
I going to push it off for later.
You know that ultimately, wesometimes think I can't, I can't
put this on my plate right now,and I went through that several
times in this time frame whereit's like it's too much, I can't
do the things that that arebeing recommended to me because
I got to focus on my dad and mymom and all this that's blowing
up with my family.
But at the same time, I'm intherapy and I'm learning that
(12:34):
you know what?
I got to put my own oxygen maskon before I can really even be
of any help to anybody else, andit was one of those things
where, in real time, it was sovery, very overwhelming, but I
just kept putting one foot infront of the other.
(12:54):
And you know, here I sit with apublished book and I'm working
on the next one, and it's like Ifeel so grateful and so just
overjoyed at how everythingturned out, even though seven,
eight years ago I never couldhave imagined this at all
(13:26):
relatable about your story, eventhough your situation may not
be exact to people that arelistening, or even to mine.
Audra (13:29):
The emotions are exactly the same and that's what was so
connected when you and I met,because my emotions are exactly
the my children, the focus of mylife.
I ran my career around mychildren on purpose, because I
(13:53):
didn't want to miss out on theirlives, because I knew that I
only had them for a short periodof time.
I'm not unique in this.
There are many women, many menaround this country, this planet
for that matter that do thesame thing, that make those same
choices, and are sitting in mysame exact seat right now that
(14:18):
their children have launched.
Congratulations.
Here's your reward yourchildren have launched.
Your house is empty and they'regoing now what?
Because I have like you.
You're like I can't.
I cannot handle any more thanwhat I've got going on right now
, because what I'm trying to dois manage chaos, chaos, and then
(14:50):
all that chaos flies a coop,and then you're sitting there
with all of these choices infront of you and now you're like
now what?
That's why choices are sopowerful, because it's all in
your hands, but at the same time, the power of choice is also so
overwhelming, which is why Ithink it's so amazing that you
(15:11):
started putting those amazingthoughts into words, into paper.
Loneliness, and I don't thinkI've ever had heard anybody
mention loneliness of thisperiod of time, even though you
had a very active social life,you had a very active work life
(15:36):
and you had lots of engagement.
I've never heard anybody sayout loud how lonely this period
of life is because you feel likeyou're doing it on your own,
even though you're not.
It feels really isolating.
Can you expand a little bitmore on that?
Because, like I said, I'venever heard anybody else say
(15:58):
that out loud.
Even though I feel it and Iknow that there are other many
other people that feel this toono one else has been brave
enough to say that out loud.
So since you were brave enoughto say it out loud, you got to
keep going.
Debbie (16:16):
Okay, well, and here's a really interesting thing that
I became aware of, I would say,in the last five years or so,
because, as a single person andI was I just have to say I was a
committed single person Like Ijust at some point I'm like I
don't really want, I like this,I like this a lot, but the
(16:40):
assumption for us singletons isthat, oh, of course we're lonely
, we don't want to cook forourselves, we don't want to do
any of these things becausewe're just sad, lonely people.
And then I would hear, or Iwould see, maybe on TV, married
people talk about being lonely,like living in a house with
(17:01):
people and being lonely, likeliving in a house with people
and being lonely.
So then that's when I startedto really think about this,
because it's a definition ofloneliness versus being alone
and they're not the same things.
And I think I heard I think itwas Cameron Crowe that talked
(17:23):
about.
He put two phrases together.
He said all pain is personal,the personal is universal, and
so this you put those twophrases together.
And so when you're goingthrough something that in your
own mind is super personal, it'snot possible that anybody else
(17:44):
can be feeling the pain that I'mfeeling, oh my God.
And you go to work every daycarrying the cloud of your own
personal pain.
But what I've come to learn isif you have the ability to share
that pain with somebody else,anybody else and it requires
(18:11):
being vulnerable, which I thinkis so hard for people.
And I look at my dogs and youlook at the animal kingdom
they're all stoic, they're notgoing to show their wounds,
they're not going to show theirinjuries, because if they show
these things, they will getkilled.
And in my job as a prosecutor,going into court, I couldn't, I
(18:34):
couldn't have personal problemsbecause, oh my gosh, then that
would get, you know, all of asudden I'm going to be put on
the bench or I'm not going to beable to do what I need to do
and all these things.
And so we, we keep it allreally, really close, and it's
my thought that that is whatcreates the loneliness, because
(18:55):
you can't share it and thereforeyou, you're stuck with it.
And so for me, when I just tookthis leap and it was a friend
that you know I had written I'dstarted writing these little.
I'd call them essays, they wereblog posts.
But I remember him saying to mewell, if you don't share them,
(19:17):
it's just a diary.
I'm like, well, that's true,that is true.
And you know a lot of us as kids, girls particularly we had our
diaries right.
Mine even had a little lockwith a key on it and it was just
like because it all just needsto stay in this spot where
nobody can see it or know aboutit, spot where nobody can see it
(19:44):
or know about it.
And to me that is what createsthe loneliness, because you're
not letting anybody in thatmight be able to just say you
know what, I get it, I get howyou feel because I felt this way
.
And so I think for me juststarting to be okay with that
that you know, not everybody'sgoing to take what I write the
(20:06):
same way, but if I can justreach one person who reads what
I write and says, oh my gosh,that's exactly how I think about
X or whatever, it's a way tobuild community.
And I mean, for me this nextchapter has been so exciting
(20:27):
because, I can't tell you, thelast time I really felt lonely
and I moved out into the country.
So I moved an hour away fromthe city where I had been living
and working and I'm on 10 acres, so my neighbors are you know.
It's one of those things whereyou could easily say, well,
that's isolating.
(20:48):
But I am the least lonely Ithink I've ever been in my whole
life, because my relationshipsare all very intentional.
I make time for them, Iprioritize the ones that nurture
my soul.
I write, I share my writingwith people.
So it's sort of like it's aweird thing because it's
(21:09):
counterintuitive, I think tomove out to the country, away
from everybody that you've beenaround, and yet lose all the
loneliness.
So it's been a reallyinteresting process, I would say
.
Audra (21:26):
You know it's interesting that you say that,
because I read this amazingarticle just last night, right
before as I was preparing forour interview, because it's been
an interesting thing goingthrough this interesting season
of life, this change of life,and it's a change of a chapter
(21:48):
for myself and for many others.
And it's a physical change oflife, it just is.
And I was reading through itand I'd never seen anybody
describe it quite like this andfor the first time I was like,
oh, I'm kind of excited aboutthis now.
And the way it was describedwas that during this change,
(22:16):
it's an evolution.
It's an evolution you have tounbecome what you once were to
become the next level of what isin store for you, which is such
beautiful imagery, but it'spainful.
(22:38):
It is very painful.
That unbecoming is a processand it's not easy and it comes
in layers, it comes in waves,and, just like you that you went
through your own unbecomingwith all of your choices, it
wasn't overnight.
Yes, you had a plan.
(22:59):
You are.
If anybody has any doubt, debbieis a type, a personality.
I attract them because I knowmy people.
They just come to me, I justknow.
They know who.
They recognize their own, know.
(23:25):
They know who they recognizetheir own.
She had a plan.
She knew exactly when she wasretiring all of this, regardless
of the plan, the process waspainful, painful, even though
she had a target date.
The emotions were difficultbecause she had all these
choices to make, the emotionsthat she had to go through
(23:50):
because there was a letting goof who you once were.
You had to shed that skin ofthe prosecutor.
That was a closing of a chapterthat, I'm sure, even though you
were ready to walk away, youhad to say goodbye to something
that you did for almost 30 yearsof your life.
(24:11):
That was not easy.
Regardless, if you were ready,walking away was still painful.
Debbie (24:19):
Walking away was still painful, Absolutely, and the
fact that it happened inSeptember of 2020, I was it, it
was it made it so much more.
What should I say?
Certain, I, you know, we allwent on remote status back in
(24:42):
March and for me, who had beencommuting by train an hour and a
half each way because I had theplan, hadn't quite gone to plan
and so I had moved before Iretired, which was not the plan,
but I like to just share that,even though you're type A and
(25:04):
you have plans, it's really goodto also have some flexibility,
and I started to learn andexercise that muscle that I
don't think I'd had for most ofmy life.
But it was one of these thingswhere, when you see things
coming to you and you seeopportunities coming, maybe it's
good to have a plan B or maybea plan C or a plan D, but at
(25:28):
least for me, I ended up movingaway sooner than I had planned.
But when we went on remotestatus, I thought, oh my gosh,
now I'm living my best life,Except at the time, my internet
was terrible and so trying to goto Teams, meetings with the
camera and everything, I mean itwas really awful.
(25:51):
And so, again, I was really,really ready to go.
And then I had my retirementparty, which I'm using air
quotes for right now because, ofcourse, there were no such
things in 2020.
So I had gone back to theoffice to clean out my office
and sitting in my office andeverybody else is, you know,
(26:22):
beaming in from wherever theywere.
And I have to tell you, Audra,it was remarkable and I'll never
forget it, because typically atthese things, you know, someone
would speak my supervisor, thebig boss, whoever I would say a
few words and then everybodywould just chit-chat and mingle
and it would be, you know, nice,There'd be cake and whatever.
(26:44):
But for this one we had, youknow, the two or three people
that were going to speak.
And then, as I'm sure you'reaware, when you're on a Teams
meeting thing, if nobody speaks,there's nothing going on.
And so what ended up happeningis it almost became in my mind.
(27:05):
I started to think, oh God, thisis like a funeral, Because so
then, little by little, peoplewould just say these nice things
about me and, oh my gosh, thenI'm just weeping and you know,
it's like, well, I haven't died,but it was.
But it was really, you know,and I look back on that and I
think, well, it would have beennice to have a party with a
(27:28):
bunch of people to sit here andstare at screens of people that
I hadn't seen, at least in, youknow, six months, and some of
them I hadn't seen in years.
I mean, they were just from allparts of the office and they're
saying these nice things, andit's one of these, it's one of
these things where you go oh, Iwasn't that bad, I guess you
(27:49):
know.
And again, it's this idea ofhow we see ourselves versus how
others see us, and it's justanyway it was.
It was one of those thingswhere, Anyway, it was one of
those things where, as you say,so then I had to drive the hour
home and I'm sobbing becauseit's like, oh, my know, just
kind of decompress, but it waslike, OK, it's still COVID, I
(28:29):
can't go anywhere for theholidays Time to get cracking on
the book.
And so it was.
Again, I don't like to speaklightly of the pandemic, because
I know that it just did anumber on so many people and so
many families, but for me it itafforded me an opportunity for
uninterrupted writing and I'vegot good self-discipline and I
just sat here every day and Ihammered out, I hammered out, I
(28:52):
hammered out and I just it wasone of those things where it,
for me, I think it was all meantto work out the way it did,
because I got the book done, thefirst draft, and I thought to
myself, well, is this just a oneand done?
Now what am I going to do?
But what I realized is how muchI love writing and I had
(29:14):
written as a lawyer, you knowcourt briefs, all that kind of
thing, but this kind of writing,just it fills my soul in ways
that I had never contemplated.
And so it's like, well, I guessI'll just keep writing books as
long as I can, and you know,whether I make any money off of
(29:34):
it, that's a whole.
That's remains to be seen.
But again, to have a little bitof financial cushion, that I'm
not, you know, I don't have tobe concerned about that right
now.
I mean, check in with me infive years and we'll see.
But again, it just it's thetransition.
For me it wasn't super tough,it wasn't super smooth either.
(30:00):
I think it was.
For me it was just right.
It was because I have noregrets.
I have no regrets of giving allthat up leaving that job, and
there was enough.
There was enough pain to knowthat I was valued at my old job.
So so, so that that's a goodkind of pain.
(30:21):
That's bittersweet, I guess wecould call it.
Audra (30:24):
Well, I mean, you attended your own wake.
That was pretty weird.
I mean, that was pretty odd,but, you know, affirming that
you had value and that you weregoing to leave a hole, that you
had value and that you weregoing to leave a hole.
So that has merit, you know, inspite of it being weird, right,
(30:48):
in spite of that.
But I mean, my point is thatyou had to shed that old
identity to become somethingelse.
Back to those.
I have choices.
I have all of these options.
You could have done a milliondifferent things.
(31:09):
You could have stayed.
You could have stayed andgotten your full pension, but
that means you would have putoff your writing career, you
would have not discovered yourtrue passion, your setting your
soul on fire.
Until what?
12 years later, you wouldn'thave discovered that?
Because you wouldn't have hadthe full capacity to write in
(31:34):
that creative manner.
Because, not that you're notwriting, you're just writing in
a very technical manner, whereaswhat you do right now comes
(31:57):
from a very creative space,absolutely so you wouldn't have
discovered that until much later.
So there's, there's an exchangeof that.
And didn't you also mentionthat?
Not only are you restoring yourold farm house that you get to
put your hands in the dirt,which there's something to be
(32:17):
said for that that you, you getto put your hands in dirt every
single day, which some peopleare like.
That doesn't sound like fun tome.
But that does sound like fun tome.
I do not know how to garden.
I don't even know if I'm goodat it.
Quite honestly, I don't know ifI could grow a thing, but I'd
certainly like to try, becausethere's something to be said for
(32:39):
getting your hands dirty andfiguring out if you can grow
something.
That sounds really fun andfascinating to me.
I don't even know if we couldgrow anything in Arizona.
Surely we could.
I mean, let's face it, thereweren't always grocery stores
here in Arizona.
Surely there's something thatcould be grown here.
(33:01):
So I'd certainly like to findout.
Tell me what this there's gotto be a spiritual aspect to
growing something.
So tell me what it's like toput your hands in dirt and grow
stuff.
Debbie (33:14):
Well, I have to say I took up gardening even when I
lived in the city.
I had this tiny little citybackyard and it was so
impractical because I've alwayshad sporting breed dogs.
So golden retriever, novaScotia, duck, tooling retriever,
lab, flat coat, I've kind ofrun through all the retrievers
(33:36):
and a little backyard where I'mtrying to grow flowers is a
little bit ironic, inappropriate, you can pick the word, but
there was always something aboutspring Once I started to learn
about perennials.
I just think perennials arefascinating because they, you
(33:59):
know, here in Minnesota they diein the winter, so they die.
We cut off all the dead stuffand then in the spring they come
back, got into it and and Ithink it was a really nice
(34:27):
compliment to my high stress jobto just come home and sit with
my flowers and pull weeds.
I mean, as a type A, pullingweeds is a great opportunity to
have some control over something.
But and I've written, I'vewritten several little blog
pieces, newsletters aboutgardening and how it really can,
it can try your patience and ityou, you need to be persistent,
(34:50):
you need to be optimisticbecause mother nature is going
to do what she's going to do andand it's funny because this is
the first year I grow a fewvegetables.
I've had a tendency to bite offmore than I can chew because
it's like, oh, I want to do thisand I want to do this, and I
want to do this and I want to dothat.
(35:10):
And that's been one of thethings I've had to actually work
on for the.
It's now my fourth summer inquote unquote retirement, but
I've had to really be morethoughtful about all the things
that I feel like I want to do,because I can exhaust myself in
no summer where I'm onlyplanting a few things that I can
(35:31):
manage and I've also.
I go out and I look ateverything every morning and I'm
grateful that it's doing well,but I'm also mindful that a big
(35:52):
storm could come through andjust flatten everything.
You have to have this abilityand as a type A, it's not hard
or not easy but to just let goof some of the control that we
need to have around things andjust just again getting through
(36:13):
the summers and the winters, thechange of seasons here.
It's not been easy.
There have been a lot of reallyfrustrating and upsetting
episodes, but yet I can sit hereon a day like today when it's
like 78 degrees and there's nohumidity and there's a nice
(36:34):
breeze and everything lookspretty and the monarch
butterflies are coming out andlanding on some of the plants
that I've put in.
It's like the greatest thing inthe world.
And so what I try to do isbottle up these days, because I
know there will be dark daysahead.
Things can happen, and if youhave a good reserve of the good
(36:56):
days that you can just sort ofgo back and think about and be
grateful for, the good days thatyou can just sort of go back
and think about and be gratefulfor, that's another thing.
For me.
Gratitude is such a huge partof my days, just looking at each
day and just being grateful forthe opportunities that are
there.
Audra (37:13):
I think you're giving me life lessons, not gardening
lessons.
These definitely sound likereally good lessons for me to do
on a daily basis, not learn howto plant stuff, because you're
definitely talking about thingsto do on a daily basis.
And that biting off more thanyou can chew, that is one of my
(37:35):
favorite traits of mine.
What would I do if I didn'tbite off more than I chew?
I'd do that on the regular.
I mean, that is that is I oftenthink.
What would I do with myself ifI had just enough to do?
I would be so bored I have noidea what I would do.
(38:00):
I would literally I don't know.
Debbie (38:05):
I don't understand balance and this is something
that people like us actuallyhave to train for and I say
train for like we would for amarathon or any other kind of
thing that we're training for,because this is the first summer
.
My book launched last summerand I look back on that summer.
(38:29):
It was great, but it was crazy.
I had a launch party, I wastraveling, I was doing book
events and I started to thinkabout last winter how I went
from my high-stress job as aprosecutor to all the things
around launching a book and I'vegiven myself no breaks.
(38:54):
I mean that's why I cannot callit retirement and I think it's
important to not call itretirement, because I think we
think of retirement as, oh, I'mjust going to travel a lot or
I'm going to sit around andwatch the paint dry or whatever.
There are some of us who cannotnecessarily do that until we
(39:16):
really make that effort and sortof think about what it means to
do that, because I know peoplein my office who will work.
They'll work into their 70s andI don't begrudge anybody who
wants to work.
If that is where you get yourpurpose and joy and fulfillment,
(39:36):
have at it.
We just lost a well-knowncriminal defense lawyer, and I
believe he was 87.
And he was still showing up incourt because that's that was
his thing.
I mean, I always knew thatbeing a lawyer was my way to
make some money, but it wasn'thow I defined myself and I think
(39:58):
I think, as for people that arelooking ahead towards we'll
call it retirement, but the nextchapter, one of the things I
think is super important, isfigure out.
Figure out who you are and whatyou like, what you don't like,
and if you are type A, I thinkthat's where retirement sounds
(40:19):
scary, because it's like oh mygosh, what am I going to do with
my days If I'm not, if I'm notaccomplishing something, if I'm
not crossing off a to-do list?
I'm going to be, you know, andand this is the first summer
where I've been I've got theto-do list, but I also do this
(40:43):
well, out and take pictures ofthe monarchs on the flowers.
And oh my gosh, audra, I canjust feel in my body the stress
is finally starting to actually,and it's a good feeling.
But it's different, becausewhen you're so used to doing 800
(41:08):
trillion things, you look atyourself as though you're not
measuring up.
If you're not, you know, if youhaven't done this and that and
everything else all day.
And again, I think for each ofus it's different, like what
brings to me.
The questions are is itbringing me purpose, is it
(41:28):
bringing me joy and and justfinding those things every day?
And and if I, if I don't do 12things, it's going to be OK,
because maybe I'll do themtomorrow, maybe I won't do them
at all.
Audra (41:43):
It sounds like your.
Your book is what brought thatfull circle for you.
Writing that not quite a memoiris what helped you get to that
point, that part of your life,and realize that there's more to
life than the hustle, than theachievement.
(42:06):
The accomplishment and whatnext?
Can I check off that list?
Because you know, there'snothing more than I like better
than check.
Scratch that off my list.
And I say that jokingly, butthere's just so many that are
listening that are exactly likethat, that are like make a list,
(42:26):
I'm checking that off, I've gotthat accomplished.
Moving on to the next, becausethat's just how we're wired.
There's nothing wrong with it.
It's just how we've becomeaccustomed to it.
It's just how we are and wecome by it honestly, Many of us.
That's just how we've survived,because we've got so many
things that we're trying to getdone that that's just how it's
(42:49):
happened.
I mean, especially if you'retrying to juggle a job, children
that are going in 85 differentdirections and a relationship,
that's just how it is and that'show it's become and that's
become normal.
And then when that phase oflife is over like I said, how we
started, this conversation isbased on choices and when you
(43:12):
are becoming something else.
The choices are now different,and that's what I love about
what you wrote is that you getto choose and define and be the
author of what's next.
You just have to be thoughtfulabout it.
Debbie (43:33):
Right, and one little piece that really really
impacted me was my grandfather'sstory Because, as I mentioned,
he was a highly successfuldoctor.
He had become addicted toDemerol.
He claimed to have been usingit to treat his asthma.
He had asthma.
(43:54):
I did a lot of research aboutwhether Demerol is a good idea
for treating asthma.
We'll set that aside for aminute.
But what I learned about himwhen he went into this locked
facility he would write theseletters and his days were much
(44:14):
like, I think, the days peoplefear about retirement.
He didn't have much to do there.
He had to get through the detoxand then he was doing creative
activities.
I mean, he's 51 years old, he'sin there with a bunch of much
younger convicted federalprisoners, basically, and so he
(44:37):
had to really get himself.
He had to get that springunwound a little bit and he was
there for four months and he waslearning new ways to manage the
stress that had sort of.
(45:13):
I think addiction can showitself in all sorts of ways, and
I think workaholism can be itsown addiction, especially if
you're.
You know you're going in on theweekends and you're working
late nights and you're doing allthese things and you're burning
the candle at both and yourhealth is suffering for it.
He went right back to his oldpractice.
(45:37):
He was always busy.
We don't believe he everrelapsed, but his asthma
continued to be an issue and hedied at age 59.
Really young, and I'm going tobe 59 in September.
(45:58):
And one of the things thatreally hit me hard as I was
writing the book and trying tofigure out what is the, what is
the message, what is the legacythat my grandfather left me?
Because I never knew him, Inever.
He died long before I was bornand and when I think about how I
(46:21):
feel now, at almost 59, I'm notready to die, you know, not
just yet.
I have things to do.
But I'm also very mindful thatnothing's guaranteed.
You know, we it's just, and Ithink when you get into middle
age and you start moving throughmiddle age, you're much more
(46:44):
focused on that.
I think when you're in your 20sand 30s, you're not, you're not
concerned about any of that andthink, when you're in your 20s
and 30s, you're not concernedabout any of that and especially
if you're a parent, you're toobusy making sure your kids are.
You know, you're all about thekids, but I think that's the
other thing, when we hit middleage, we start to think about
okay, I don't know how much timeI have left, and I think,
(47:05):
knowing that my grandfatherthink, knowing that my
grandfather had he just opted totake a little bit better care
of himself and not work as hard,maybe he could have lived
longer.
I don't know, but I think thereis there.
He left a message.
He left a message in his life.
(47:25):
He did a lot of good things.
He left a message in his life.
He did a lot of good things.
He died too young, in myopinion, and so to honor his
legacy, I need to take good careof myself, and I and people are
(47:47):
always thinking, you know, do Itake my social security at 62
or do I wait all the way till 70?
My philosophy is none of that'sguaranteed, and so, you know, I
don't.
It's not like I think I'm goingto die young, but I don't know.
I would rather live each day tothe max than worry about a
(48:10):
future that may or may not beguaranteed.
And so these are things I thinkabout as well, and I think the
book like you say, this book,writing this book, really it
made me think about a lot ofthings in ways I had not thought
about them previously.
Audra (48:28):
Well, you've given us a lot to think about and a lot to
consider and put some things indifferent perspective.
For, I think, a lot of us,certainly for me, because
thinking about choices andwhat's next, and all of that
certainly isn't as overwhelmingand as scary as I once thought,
(48:54):
as I get to become what's nextand I've got lots of company.
That's.
The good thing is that I've gotlots and lots of company.
The more I've been talkingabout this lately is because I
used to hold this secret.
I don't know why I used to keepthis as a secret, but I started
talking about it a little bitand then more.
The more I talked about it, themore people wanted me to talk
(49:14):
about it.
So I've been talking about itmore often and I realized that
there's lots of women and menout there just like me that are
going through this kind of stuff.
And it's it's the next chapterof life that, if you're lucky
enough to get to it, you get tograduate to the next step.
(49:34):
So it's you know, it'swhatever's next, just let it
unfold.
And you got to write a book anddocument it and you get to live
what's on the other side, whichis so exciting.
I mean, you're living a dreamthat you didn't think to dream
(49:55):
of Five years ago.
You didn't know to dream thisExactly, which I think is
amazing.
Where can they reach you ifthey want to know more about you
or read your book?
Debbie (50:13):
Well, my website is wwwdebbie-russellcom.
Everything is on there, thebook is on there.
Dot com Everything is on there,the book is on there, media
coverage, book club invitations,those kinds of things.
(50:40):
My book is on Amazon, crossing51, not quite a memoir, and it's
done well and I just it's.
I'm always excited to connectwith readers who say, oh my gosh
, you could have been writingabout me, and I think what?
Because I felt like I was as wetalked before.
I felt like I was so unique inmy experience but turns out not
so much.
Audra (50:58):
So, yeah, so you'll do book club invitations.
That's super cool, I love.
Debbie (51:05):
I love doing book clubs .
I have met so many women whocan describe very similar
circumstances.
Audra (51:15):
It's amazing that has been one of the highlights of
this book for me and there's alot of you out there a lot,
because we all, like I said, Iknow my people, we all love
these books.
Hit her up, go take her book,go get her book and then invite
(51:35):
her to your book clubs.
Come on, guys, she's likeinvite me, hang out with her.
I love to chat.
Exactly, debbie.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This has been a lovely delightto get to know you and to get to
know a little bit more aboutyour story and that, once again,
we're way more similar than weare different.
(51:57):
Even though we have differentbackgrounds, we have different
experiences, we're all goingthrough pretty much similar
stuff.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you, audra, it was a realpleasure.
Thank you once again, and Iwant to thank all of you for
joining me again today.
We'll see you again next time.
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week, we're going to talkto another amazing, incredibly
brave woman who realized thatshe had the power of choice.
My guest this week is DebbieRussell, and she is an attorney
turned writer.
She spent 25 years as anassistant county attorney in
(00:21):
Minneapolis, prosecutingnumerous high-profile cases.
She also fought off severalcases of nervous breakdowns.
At age 55, debbie took an earlyretirement.
She gave up a full pension forfull-time freedom.
She now spends her precioustime writing, restoring her
(00:42):
property to a native prairie andwetlands and training her
rambunctious retrievers.
She also wrote an award-winningbook, crossing 51, not Quite a
Memoir, and released it in Juneof 2023.
It is my pleasure and my honorto introduce to you Debbie.
Debbie, thank you so much forbeing here and welcome to the
(01:03):
show.
Debbie (01:03):
Thank you so much for being here and welcome to the
show, hi, audra, and thank youso much for the opportunity to
talk with you today.
Audra (01:10):
I am really excited for you to be here, and let's just
talk about the intro.
What do you mean?
You fought off numerousbreakdowns.
I mean, when I read your bioand I even mentioned this to you
when I read that, I thought Ilaughed because I'm like I can
relate.
I feel that I don't know if shemeans this literally or
(01:32):
figuratively, because in bothcases I feel that too.
Is that being stressed out,overwhelmed and thinking can I
do this another day?
And is that what led you totake an early retirement?
Debbie (01:48):
Those are great questions because I know that
this little snippet of my biohas caused both responses and
reactions.
And I put it in there sort oftongue in cheek because the
nature of my work was really,really tough.
But during the time that I wasdoing the work I was really good
(02:11):
at compartmentalizing, and so Iwould do the work and I would
go home and I would play with mydogs or I'd work in my garden.
And it was only after I'd hadsome time away from it where I
started to realize just howextraordinarily stressful it was
.
It was not that that caused meto take an early retirement.
(02:36):
I had planned from the time Istarted in the county attorney's
office as a very young lawyer Ithink I was maybe not quite 30.
And I knew that they were goingto be taking up a portion of my
salary to go towards a pensionand all I had to do was stick it
out until I was 55.
(02:57):
And I could take a pension.
Now it's quite reduced fromwhat it could have been had I
stayed until I think it's either65 or 67.
But even in my late 20s Ithought I'll do this for this
next chapter of my career andthen I'll do something else, and
(03:22):
so I, in those early days, juststarted saving money, and so
it's been an interestingadjustment, I can say, when my
pension is basically 19% of whatmy high five salary was at the
(03:43):
end of my career in the countyattorney's office.
But when I wrote that bio, itwas clear to me that for me,
time is much more valuable thanmoney.
We all need a certain amount ofmoney to get by, but I don't
need that much money.
(04:04):
What I really crave and what Ireally love is the time.
Audra (04:10):
You know, and I think that as we all get older, that's
what we all crave is we cravethe value of our time, of our
own time.
We actually start to crave thevalue of our own company because
we don't get that all that much.
We don't get to spend time withourselves that isn't distracted
(04:33):
by something else, that itisn't being pulled in a
different direction, with someother responsibility.
And you were willing toexchange commerce money for your
time and you suddenly had thispower of choice.
So when you and I first met,you told me a story about how
(04:54):
you came into writing.
You always had this desire towrite and I was actually so
impressed and moved by how yousuddenly were embraced by this
power of your own choice.
You had such a self-awarenessof all of these choices that you
(05:14):
had.
You had this self-awareness inyour late 20s and that carried
you through to your mid-50s.
And you had all of thesechoices.
But when you arrive there, whatdo you do with them?
And I'm asking you thesequestions because a lot of my
(05:36):
audience is there Now.
They may be in differentcircumstances.
You are a single woman.
You don't have children.
However, there are a lot ofpeople, a lot of women that are
listening, that are like I'mthere too, I'm in my mid fifties
and they're empty nesters.
Some of them are married, someof them aren't, but suddenly
(05:56):
they're reassessing and going.
I have choices.
What do I do with them?
What did you do with them?
Debbie (06:07):
choices.
What do I do with them?
What did you do with them?
Well, such a great question.
And you know, I started writingat a very low point in my
prosecutor career.
I was really hating my job butalso realizing I'm not going to
quit, I'm not going to go doanything else.
I'm on this plan and I can getthrough it.
(06:27):
But I need to find another wayto kind of get the thoughts out
of your head and onto paper.
And in my case, I just startedwriting some things and then I
(06:57):
started to share the blog,because at first I didn't really
want to share it.
It was just, you know my ownpersonal stuff really want to
share it.
It was just, you know, my ownpersonal stuff.
And what was so amazing aboutwhen I started to share these
things, which were at the timereally pretty vulnerable, that
people out there are justcraving that kind of connection
(07:18):
where they can say, oh my gosh,that's as you described.
You know your audience people.
We all have things that arerelatable, even though my life
might be very different fromyours.
I can write about my owninsecurities and out of all of
them you can find a couple thatyou can relate to, and I think
(07:39):
for me it helped me get out ofthis silo of loneliness that I
had started to create for myself, even though every day I was
going to work, I was interactingwith people, I had a great
social life, but because of allthe thoughts that were going
around in my head that made mefeel very, very alone.
(08:01):
So I started the blog and then Icame across this file folder of
letters that my grandfather hadwritten back and forth between
my dad and my aunt and my uncleand my grandmother when he, at
the age of 51, voluntarily puthimself into a federal locked
(08:23):
drug rehab program.
And I remember I was in my 40swhen I found the letters and I
thought these letters would makean awesome book.
And of course, I'm in my 40sand I'm busy, and you know, even
though I didn't have kids, Iwas in the midst of doing dog
training and competition, so Ihad a whole lot of other things
(08:47):
that sort of were competing formy attention, and trying to
figure out how to write a bookabout this just didn't seem like
I could get it off the ground.
I did go to one class calledhow to Publish your Book, which
seemed really, reallyintimidating, and so I thought,
well, this will be for anotherday.
(09:07):
And then, in 2016, when my dadwas accepted into hospice and I
realized that I'm going to losehim I don't know when, but I
want to make sure I knoweverything there is to know
about his family, andparticularly my grandfather, who
was a doctor.
(09:28):
He was a surgeon.
He had become addicted toDemerol.
It was a family secret, nobodytalked about it.
And then what happened wasthings that started to happen to
me in real time, as it relatedto finding out more about my dad
and his family and my ownstruggles as I hit 51, very
(09:50):
coincidentally, and that's howwe got the book title but that's
when I decided I needed to getmyself into therapy, I needed
help with everything that wasgoing on, and I think that was
going on, and I think you knowmy book documents in real time a
midlife crisis and you knowit's my own, but it's also my
(10:14):
grandfather's when he was 51.
And so what I wanted to do wassort of braid these two stories
together and then, as I'mwriting the book, figure out
what do I get out of tellingthis story, what do I get out of
living the story?
And it also documents how I'mmarching right up to my age of
(10:37):
my planned retirement, where Ihad certain ideas about what I
was going to be doing, butnothing was clear.
And for any of your audienceout there who has been caring
for an aged parent or involvedin really really compelling
family drama, dynamics, whateveryou want to call it, it's very
(11:00):
easy to just put your own life.
It's very easy to just put yourown life off to the side.
And even though I didn't havechildren, all of a sudden all my
attention was on what was goingon with my dad and all of that.
And the next thing, you know,I'm three years away from four
years away from retirement and Ididn't really have a plan.
(11:28):
And what makes this story to meso cool is the serendipity of it
all, where things happen.
People come into my life thatstart guiding me and pushing me
in certain directions and all ofa sudden, my future is starting
to come into focus.
And then the question becomes.
When you talked, audra, aboutchoices and having choices, I
(11:50):
think one of the hardest choiceswe have sometimes is do I have
the bandwidth to do this thing,opportunity, can I do it, or am
(12:12):
I going to push it off for later.
You know that ultimately, wesometimes think I can't, I can't
put this on my plate right now,and I went through that several
times in this time frame whereit's like it's too much, I can't
do the things that that arebeing recommended to me because
I got to focus on my dad and mymom and all this that's blowing
up with my family.
But at the same time, I'm intherapy and I'm learning that
(12:34):
you know what?
I got to put my own oxygen maskon before I can really even be
of any help to anybody else, andit was one of those things
where, in real time, it was sovery, very overwhelming, but I
just kept putting one foot infront of the other.
(12:54):
And you know, here I sit with apublished book and I'm working
on the next one, and it's like Ifeel so grateful and so just
overjoyed at how everythingturned out, even though seven,
eight years ago I never couldhave imagined this at all
(13:26):
relatable about your story, eventhough your situation may not
be exact to people that arelistening, or even to mine.
Audra (13:29):
The emotions are exactly the same and that's what was so
connected when you and I met,because my emotions are exactly
the my children, the focus of mylife.
I ran my career around mychildren on purpose, because I
(13:53):
didn't want to miss out on theirlives, because I knew that I
only had them for a short periodof time.
I'm not unique in this.
There are many women, many menaround this country, this planet
for that matter that do thesame thing, that make those same
choices, and are sitting in mysame exact seat right now that
(14:18):
their children have launched.
Congratulations.
Here's your reward yourchildren have launched.
Your house is empty and they'regoing now what?
Because I have like you.
You're like I can't.
I cannot handle any more thanwhat I've got going on right now
, because what I'm trying to dois manage chaos, chaos, and then
(14:50):
all that chaos flies a coop,and then you're sitting there
with all of these choices infront of you and now you're like
now what?
That's why choices are sopowerful, because it's all in
your hands, but at the same time, the power of choice is also so
overwhelming, which is why Ithink it's so amazing that you
(15:11):
started putting those amazingthoughts into words, into paper.
Loneliness, and I don't thinkI've ever had heard anybody
mention loneliness of thisperiod of time, even though you
had a very active social life,you had a very active work life
(15:36):
and you had lots of engagement.
I've never heard anybody sayout loud how lonely this period
of life is because you feel likeyou're doing it on your own,
even though you're not.
It feels really isolating.
Can you expand a little bitmore on that?
Because, like I said, I'venever heard anybody else say
(15:58):
that out loud.
Even though I feel it and Iknow that there are other many
other people that feel this toono one else has been brave
enough to say that out loud.
So since you were brave enoughto say it out loud, you got to
keep going.
Debbie (16:16):
Okay, well, and here's a really interesting thing that
I became aware of, I would say,in the last five years or so,
because, as a single person andI was I just have to say I was a
committed single person Like Ijust at some point I'm like I
don't really want, I like this,I like this a lot, but the
(16:40):
assumption for us singletons isthat, oh, of course we're lonely
, we don't want to cook forourselves, we don't want to do
any of these things becausewe're just sad, lonely people.
And then I would hear, or Iwould see, maybe on TV, married
people talk about being lonely,like living in a house with
(17:01):
people and being lonely, likeliving in a house with people
and being lonely.
So then that's when I startedto really think about this,
because it's a definition ofloneliness versus being alone
and they're not the same things.
And I think I heard I think itwas Cameron Crowe that talked
(17:23):
about.
He put two phrases together.
He said all pain is personal,the personal is universal, and
so this you put those twophrases together.
And so when you're goingthrough something that in your
own mind is super personal, it'snot possible that anybody else
(17:44):
can be feeling the pain that I'mfeeling, oh my God.
And you go to work every daycarrying the cloud of your own
personal pain.
But what I've come to learn isif you have the ability to share
that pain with somebody else,anybody else and it requires
(18:11):
being vulnerable, which I thinkis so hard for people.
And I look at my dogs and youlook at the animal kingdom
they're all stoic, they're notgoing to show their wounds,
they're not going to show theirinjuries, because if they show
these things, they will getkilled.
And in my job as a prosecutor,going into court, I couldn't, I
(18:34):
couldn't have personal problemsbecause, oh my gosh, then that
would get, you know, all of asudden I'm going to be put on
the bench or I'm not going to beable to do what I need to do
and all these things.
And so we, we keep it allreally, really close, and it's
my thought that that is whatcreates the loneliness, because
(18:55):
you can't share it and thereforeyou, you're stuck with it.
And so for me, when I just tookthis leap and it was a friend
that you know I had written I'dstarted writing these little.
I'd call them essays, they wereblog posts.
But I remember him saying to mewell, if you don't share them,
(19:17):
it's just a diary.
I'm like, well, that's true,that is true.
And you know a lot of us as kids, girls particularly we had our
diaries right.
Mine even had a little lockwith a key on it and it was just
like because it all just needsto stay in this spot where
nobody can see it or know aboutit, spot where nobody can see it
(19:44):
or know about it.
And to me that is what createsthe loneliness, because you're
not letting anybody in thatmight be able to just say you
know what, I get it, I get howyou feel because I felt this way
.
And so I think for me juststarting to be okay with that
that you know, not everybody'sgoing to take what I write the
(20:06):
same way, but if I can justreach one person who reads what
I write and says, oh my gosh,that's exactly how I think about
X or whatever, it's a way tobuild community.
And I mean, for me this nextchapter has been so exciting
(20:27):
because, I can't tell you, thelast time I really felt lonely
and I moved out into the country.
So I moved an hour away fromthe city where I had been living
and working and I'm on 10 acres, so my neighbors are you know.
It's one of those things whereyou could easily say, well,
that's isolating.
(20:48):
But I am the least lonely Ithink I've ever been in my whole
life, because my relationshipsare all very intentional.
I make time for them, Iprioritize the ones that nurture
my soul.
I write, I share my writingwith people.
So it's sort of like it's aweird thing because it's
(21:09):
counterintuitive, I think tomove out to the country, away
from everybody that you've beenaround, and yet lose all the
loneliness.
So it's been a reallyinteresting process, I would say
.
Audra (21:26):
You know it's interesting that you say that,
because I read this amazingarticle just last night, right
before as I was preparing forour interview, because it's been
an interesting thing goingthrough this interesting season
of life, this change of life,and it's a change of a chapter
(21:48):
for myself and for many others.
And it's a physical change oflife, it just is.
And I was reading through itand I'd never seen anybody
describe it quite like this andfor the first time I was like,
oh, I'm kind of excited aboutthis now.
And the way it was describedwas that during this change,
(22:16):
it's an evolution.
It's an evolution you have tounbecome what you once were to
become the next level of what isin store for you, which is such
beautiful imagery, but it'spainful.
(22:38):
It is very painful.
That unbecoming is a processand it's not easy and it comes
in layers, it comes in waves,and, just like you that you went
through your own unbecomingwith all of your choices, it
wasn't overnight.
Yes, you had a plan.
(22:59):
You are.
If anybody has any doubt, debbieis a type, a personality.
I attract them because I knowmy people.
They just come to me, I justknow.
They know who.
They recognize their own, know.
(23:25):
They know who they recognizetheir own.
She had a plan.
She knew exactly when she wasretiring all of this, regardless
of the plan, the process waspainful, painful, even though
she had a target date.
The emotions were difficultbecause she had all these
choices to make, the emotionsthat she had to go through
(23:50):
because there was a letting goof who you once were.
You had to shed that skin ofthe prosecutor.
That was a closing of a chapterthat, I'm sure, even though you
were ready to walk away, youhad to say goodbye to something
that you did for almost 30 yearsof your life.
(24:11):
That was not easy.
Regardless, if you were ready,walking away was still painful.
Debbie (24:19):
Walking away was still painful, Absolutely, and the
fact that it happened inSeptember of 2020, I was it, it
was it made it so much more.
What should I say?
Certain, I, you know, we allwent on remote status back in
(24:42):
March and for me, who had beencommuting by train an hour and a
half each way because I had theplan, hadn't quite gone to plan
and so I had moved before Iretired, which was not the plan,
but I like to just share that,even though you're type A and
(25:04):
you have plans, it's really goodto also have some flexibility,
and I started to learn andexercise that muscle that I
don't think I'd had for most ofmy life.
But it was one of these thingswhere, when you see things
coming to you and you seeopportunities coming, maybe it's
good to have a plan B or maybea plan C or a plan D, but at
(25:28):
least for me, I ended up movingaway sooner than I had planned.
But when we went on remotestatus, I thought, oh my gosh,
now I'm living my best life,Except at the time, my internet
was terrible and so trying to goto Teams, meetings with the
camera and everything, I mean itwas really awful.
(25:51):
And so, again, I was really,really ready to go.
And then I had my retirementparty, which I'm using air
quotes for right now because, ofcourse, there were no such
things in 2020.
So I had gone back to theoffice to clean out my office
and sitting in my office andeverybody else is, you know,
(26:22):
beaming in from wherever theywere.
And I have to tell you, Audra,it was remarkable and I'll never
forget it, because typically atthese things, you know, someone
would speak my supervisor, thebig boss, whoever I would say a
few words and then everybodywould just chit-chat and mingle
and it would be, you know, nice,There'd be cake and whatever.
(26:44):
But for this one we had, youknow, the two or three people
that were going to speak.
And then, as I'm sure you'reaware, when you're on a Teams
meeting thing, if nobody speaks,there's nothing going on.
And so what ended up happeningis it almost became in my mind.
(27:05):
I started to think, oh God, thisis like a funeral, Because so
then, little by little, peoplewould just say these nice things
about me and, oh my gosh, thenI'm just weeping and you know,
it's like, well, I haven't died,but it was.
But it was really, you know,and I look back on that and I
think, well, it would have beennice to have a party with a
(27:28):
bunch of people to sit here andstare at screens of people that
I hadn't seen, at least in, youknow, six months, and some of
them I hadn't seen in years.
I mean, they were just from allparts of the office and they're
saying these nice things, andit's one of these, it's one of
these things where you go oh, Iwasn't that bad, I guess you
(27:49):
know.
And again, it's this idea ofhow we see ourselves versus how
others see us, and it's justanyway it was.
It was one of those thingswhere, Anyway, it was one of
those things where, as you say,so then I had to drive the hour
home and I'm sobbing becauseit's like, oh, my know, just
kind of decompress, but it waslike, OK, it's still COVID, I
(28:29):
can't go anywhere for theholidays Time to get cracking on
the book.
And so it was.
Again, I don't like to speaklightly of the pandemic, because
I know that it just did anumber on so many people and so
many families, but for me it itafforded me an opportunity for
uninterrupted writing and I'vegot good self-discipline and I
just sat here every day and Ihammered out, I hammered out, I
(28:52):
hammered out and I just it wasone of those things where it,
for me, I think it was all meantto work out the way it did,
because I got the book done, thefirst draft, and I thought to
myself, well, is this just a oneand done?
Now what am I going to do?
But what I realized is how muchI love writing and I had
(29:14):
written as a lawyer, you knowcourt briefs, all that kind of
thing, but this kind of writing,just it fills my soul in ways
that I had never contemplated.
And so it's like, well, I guessI'll just keep writing books as
long as I can, and you know,whether I make any money off of
(29:34):
it, that's a whole.
That's remains to be seen.
But again, to have a little bitof financial cushion, that I'm
not, you know, I don't have tobe concerned about that right
now.
I mean, check in with me infive years and we'll see.
But again, it just it's thetransition.
For me it wasn't super tough,it wasn't super smooth either.
(30:00):
I think it was.
For me it was just right.
It was because I have noregrets.
I have no regrets of giving allthat up leaving that job, and
there was enough.
There was enough pain to knowthat I was valued at my old job.
So so, so that that's a goodkind of pain.
(30:21):
That's bittersweet, I guess wecould call it.
Audra (30:24):
Well, I mean, you attended your own wake.
That was pretty weird.
I mean, that was pretty odd,but, you know, affirming that
you had value and that you weregoing to leave a hole, that you
had value and that you weregoing to leave a hole.
So that has merit, you know, inspite of it being weird, right,
(30:48):
in spite of that.
But I mean, my point is thatyou had to shed that old
identity to become somethingelse.
Back to those.
I have choices.
I have all of these options.
You could have done a milliondifferent things.
(31:09):
You could have stayed.
You could have stayed andgotten your full pension, but
that means you would have putoff your writing career, you
would have not discovered yourtrue passion, your setting your
soul on fire.
Until what?
12 years later, you wouldn'thave discovered that?
Because you wouldn't have hadthe full capacity to write in
(31:34):
that creative manner.
Because, not that you're notwriting, you're just writing in
a very technical manner, whereaswhat you do right now comes
(31:57):
from a very creative space,absolutely so you wouldn't have
discovered that until much later.
So there's, there's an exchangeof that.
And didn't you also mentionthat?
Not only are you restoring yourold farm house that you get to
put your hands in the dirt,which there's something to be
(32:17):
said for that that you, you getto put your hands in dirt every
single day, which some peopleare like.
That doesn't sound like fun tome.
But that does sound like fun tome.
I do not know how to garden.
I don't even know if I'm goodat it.
Quite honestly, I don't know ifI could grow a thing, but I'd
certainly like to try, becausethere's something to be said for
(32:39):
getting your hands dirty andfiguring out if you can grow
something.
That sounds really fun andfascinating to me.
I don't even know if we couldgrow anything in Arizona.
Surely we could.
I mean, let's face it, thereweren't always grocery stores
here in Arizona.
Surely there's something thatcould be grown here.
(33:01):
So I'd certainly like to findout.
Tell me what this there's gotto be a spiritual aspect to
growing something.
So tell me what it's like toput your hands in dirt and grow
stuff.
Debbie (33:14):
Well, I have to say I took up gardening even when I
lived in the city.
I had this tiny little citybackyard and it was so
impractical because I've alwayshad sporting breed dogs.
So golden retriever, novaScotia, duck, tooling retriever,
lab, flat coat, I've kind ofrun through all the retrievers
(33:36):
and a little backyard where I'mtrying to grow flowers is a
little bit ironic, inappropriate, you can pick the word, but
there was always something aboutspring Once I started to learn
about perennials.
I just think perennials arefascinating because they, you
(33:59):
know, here in Minnesota they diein the winter, so they die.
We cut off all the dead stuffand then in the spring they come
back, got into it and and Ithink it was a really nice
(34:27):
compliment to my high stress jobto just come home and sit with
my flowers and pull weeds.
I mean, as a type A, pullingweeds is a great opportunity to
have some control over something.
But and I've written, I'vewritten several little blog
pieces, newsletters aboutgardening and how it really can,
it can try your patience and ityou, you need to be persistent,
(34:50):
you need to be optimisticbecause mother nature is going
to do what she's going to do andand it's funny because this is
the first year I grow a fewvegetables.
I've had a tendency to bite offmore than I can chew because
it's like, oh, I want to do thisand I want to do this, and I
want to do this and I want to dothat.
(35:10):
And that's been one of thethings I've had to actually work
on for the.
It's now my fourth summer inquote unquote retirement, but
I've had to really be morethoughtful about all the things
that I feel like I want to do,because I can exhaust myself in
no summer where I'm onlyplanting a few things that I can
(35:31):
manage and I've also.
I go out and I look ateverything every morning and I'm
grateful that it's doing well,but I'm also mindful that a big
(35:52):
storm could come through andjust flatten everything.
You have to have this abilityand as a type A, it's not hard
or not easy but to just let goof some of the control that we
need to have around things andjust just again getting through
(36:13):
the summers and the winters, thechange of seasons here.
It's not been easy.
There have been a lot of reallyfrustrating and upsetting
episodes, but yet I can sit hereon a day like today when it's
like 78 degrees and there's nohumidity and there's a nice
(36:34):
breeze and everything lookspretty and the monarch
butterflies are coming out andlanding on some of the plants
that I've put in.
It's like the greatest thing inthe world.
And so what I try to do isbottle up these days, because I
know there will be dark daysahead.
Things can happen, and if youhave a good reserve of the good
(36:56):
days that you can just sort ofgo back and think about and be
grateful for, the good days thatyou can just sort of go back
and think about and be gratefulfor, that's another thing.
For me.
Gratitude is such a huge partof my days, just looking at each
day and just being grateful forthe opportunities that are
there.
Audra (37:13):
I think you're giving me life lessons, not gardening
lessons.
These definitely sound likereally good lessons for me to do
on a daily basis, not learn howto plant stuff, because you're
definitely talking about thingsto do on a daily basis.
And that biting off more thanyou can chew, that is one of my
(37:35):
favorite traits of mine.
What would I do if I didn'tbite off more than I chew?
I'd do that on the regular.
I mean, that is that is I oftenthink.
What would I do with myself ifI had just enough to do?
I would be so bored I have noidea what I would do.
(38:00):
I would literally I don't know.
Debbie (38:05):
I don't understand balance and this is something
that people like us actuallyhave to train for and I say
train for like we would for amarathon or any other kind of
thing that we're training for,because this is the first summer
.
My book launched last summerand I look back on that summer.
(38:29):
It was great, but it was crazy.
I had a launch party, I wastraveling, I was doing book
events and I started to thinkabout last winter how I went
from my high-stress job as aprosecutor to all the things
around launching a book and I'vegiven myself no breaks.
(38:54):
I mean that's why I cannot callit retirement and I think it's
important to not call itretirement, because I think we
think of retirement as, oh, I'mjust going to travel a lot or
I'm going to sit around andwatch the paint dry or whatever.
There are some of us who cannotnecessarily do that until we
(39:16):
really make that effort and sortof think about what it means to
do that, because I know peoplein my office who will work.
They'll work into their 70s andI don't begrudge anybody who
wants to work.
If that is where you get yourpurpose and joy and fulfillment,
(39:36):
have at it.
We just lost a well-knowncriminal defense lawyer, and I
believe he was 87.
And he was still showing up incourt because that's that was
his thing.
I mean, I always knew thatbeing a lawyer was my way to
make some money, but it wasn'thow I defined myself and I think
(39:58):
I think, as for people that arelooking ahead towards we'll
call it retirement, but the nextchapter, one of the things I
think is super important, isfigure out.
Figure out who you are and whatyou like, what you don't like,
and if you are type A, I thinkthat's where retirement sounds
(40:19):
scary, because it's like oh mygosh, what am I going to do with
my days If I'm not, if I'm notaccomplishing something, if I'm
not crossing off a to-do list?
I'm going to be, you know, andand this is the first summer
where I've been I've got theto-do list, but I also do this
(40:43):
well, out and take pictures ofthe monarchs on the flowers.
And oh my gosh, audra, I canjust feel in my body the stress
is finally starting to actually,and it's a good feeling.
But it's different, becausewhen you're so used to doing 800
(41:08):
trillion things, you look atyourself as though you're not
measuring up.
If you're not, you know, if youhaven't done this and that and
everything else all day.
And again, I think for each ofus it's different, like what
brings to me.
The questions are is itbringing me purpose, is it
(41:28):
bringing me joy and and justfinding those things every day?
And and if I, if I don't do 12things, it's going to be OK,
because maybe I'll do themtomorrow, maybe I won't do them
at all.
Audra (41:43):
It sounds like your.
Your book is what brought thatfull circle for you.
Writing that not quite a memoiris what helped you get to that
point, that part of your life,and realize that there's more to
life than the hustle, than theachievement.
(42:06):
The accomplishment and whatnext?
Can I check off that list?
Because you know, there'snothing more than I like better
than check.
Scratch that off my list.
And I say that jokingly, butthere's just so many that are
listening that are exactly likethat, that are like make a list,
(42:26):
I'm checking that off, I've gotthat accomplished.
Moving on to the next, becausethat's just how we're wired.
There's nothing wrong with it.
It's just how we've becomeaccustomed to it.
It's just how we are and wecome by it honestly, Many of us.
That's just how we've survived,because we've got so many
things that we're trying to getdone that that's just how it's
(42:49):
happened.
I mean, especially if you'retrying to juggle a job, children
that are going in 85 differentdirections and a relationship,
that's just how it is and that'show it's become and that's
become normal.
And then when that phase oflife is over like I said, how we
started, this conversation isbased on choices and when you
(43:12):
are becoming something else.
The choices are now different,and that's what I love about
what you wrote is that you getto choose and define and be the
author of what's next.
You just have to be thoughtfulabout it.
Debbie (43:33):
Right, and one little piece that really really
impacted me was my grandfather'sstory Because, as I mentioned,
he was a highly successfuldoctor.
He had become addicted toDemerol.
He claimed to have been usingit to treat his asthma.
He had asthma.
(43:54):
I did a lot of research aboutwhether Demerol is a good idea
for treating asthma.
We'll set that aside for aminute.
But what I learned about himwhen he went into this locked
facility he would write theseletters and his days were much
(44:14):
like, I think, the days peoplefear about retirement.
He didn't have much to do there.
He had to get through the detoxand then he was doing creative
activities.
I mean, he's 51 years old, he'sin there with a bunch of much
younger convicted federalprisoners, basically, and so he
(44:37):
had to really get himself.
He had to get that springunwound a little bit and he was
there for four months and he waslearning new ways to manage the
stress that had sort of.
(45:13):
I think addiction can showitself in all sorts of ways, and
I think workaholism can be itsown addiction, especially if
you're.
You know you're going in on theweekends and you're working
late nights and you're doing allthese things and you're burning
the candle at both and yourhealth is suffering for it.
He went right back to his oldpractice.
(45:37):
He was always busy.
We don't believe he everrelapsed, but his asthma
continued to be an issue and hedied at age 59.
Really young, and I'm going tobe 59 in September.
(45:58):
And one of the things thatreally hit me hard as I was
writing the book and trying tofigure out what is the, what is
the message, what is the legacythat my grandfather left me?
Because I never knew him, Inever.
He died long before I was bornand and when I think about how I
(46:21):
feel now, at almost 59, I'm notready to die, you know, not
just yet.
I have things to do.
But I'm also very mindful thatnothing's guaranteed.
You know, we it's just, and Ithink when you get into middle
age and you start moving throughmiddle age, you're much more
(46:44):
focused on that.
I think when you're in your 20sand 30s, you're not, you're not
concerned about any of that andthink, when you're in your 20s
and 30s, you're not concernedabout any of that and especially
if you're a parent, you're toobusy making sure your kids are.
You know, you're all about thekids, but I think that's the
other thing, when we hit middleage, we start to think about
okay, I don't know how much timeI have left, and I think,
(47:05):
knowing that my grandfatherthink, knowing that my
grandfather had he just opted totake a little bit better care
of himself and not work as hard,maybe he could have lived
longer.
I don't know, but I think thereis there.
He left a message.
He left a message in his life.
(47:25):
He did a lot of good things.
He left a message in his life.
He did a lot of good things.
He died too young, in myopinion, and so to honor his
legacy, I need to take good careof myself, and I and people are
(47:47):
always thinking, you know, do Itake my social security at 62
or do I wait all the way till 70?
My philosophy is none of that'sguaranteed, and so, you know, I
don't.
It's not like I think I'm goingto die young, but I don't know.
I would rather live each day tothe max than worry about a
(48:10):
future that may or may not beguaranteed.
And so these are things I thinkabout as well, and I think the
book like you say, this book,writing this book, really it
made me think about a lot ofthings in ways I had not thought
about them previously.
Audra (48:28):
Well, you've given us a lot to think about and a lot to
consider and put some things indifferent perspective.
For, I think, a lot of us,certainly for me, because
thinking about choices andwhat's next, and all of that
certainly isn't as overwhelmingand as scary as I once thought,
(48:54):
as I get to become what's nextand I've got lots of company.
That's.
The good thing is that I've gotlots and lots of company.
The more I've been talkingabout this lately is because I
used to hold this secret.
I don't know why I used to keepthis as a secret, but I started
talking about it a little bitand then more.
The more I talked about it, themore people wanted me to talk
(49:14):
about it.
So I've been talking about itmore often and I realized that
there's lots of women and menout there just like me that are
going through this kind of stuff.
And it's it's the next chapterof life that, if you're lucky
enough to get to it, you get tograduate to the next step.
(49:34):
So it's you know, it'swhatever's next, just let it
unfold.
And you got to write a book anddocument it and you get to live
what's on the other side, whichis so exciting.
I mean, you're living a dreamthat you didn't think to dream
(49:55):
of Five years ago.
You didn't know to dream thisExactly, which I think is
amazing.
Where can they reach you ifthey want to know more about you
or read your book?
Debbie (50:13):
Well, my website is wwwdebbie-russellcom.
Everything is on there, thebook is on there.
Dot com Everything is on there,the book is on there, media
coverage, book club invitations,those kinds of things.
(50:40):
My book is on Amazon, crossing51, not quite a memoir, and it's
done well and I just it's.
I'm always excited to connectwith readers who say, oh my gosh
, you could have been writingabout me, and I think what?
Because I felt like I was as wetalked before.
I felt like I was so unique inmy experience but turns out not
so much.
Audra (50:58):
So, yeah, so you'll do book club invitations.
That's super cool, I love.
Debbie (51:05):
I love doing book clubs .
I have met so many women whocan describe very similar
circumstances.
Audra (51:15):
It's amazing that has been one of the highlights of
this book for me and there's alot of you out there a lot,
because we all, like I said, Iknow my people, we all love
these books.
Hit her up, go take her book,go get her book and then invite
(51:35):
her to your book clubs.
Come on, guys, she's likeinvite me, hang out with her.
I love to chat.
Exactly, debbie.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This has been a lovely delightto get to know you and to get to
know a little bit more aboutyour story and that, once again,
we're way more similar than weare different.
(51:57):
Even though we have differentbackgrounds, we have different
experiences, we're all goingthrough pretty much similar
stuff.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you, audra, it was a realpleasure.
Thank you once again, and Iwant to thank all of you for
joining me again today.
We'll see you again next time.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!