May 1, 2024 • 55 mins
This episode, we're joined by an extra special guest, Kim Thai @kthai6 . She is a community organizer and founder of Joyful Liberation Collective. They are also a mindfulness teacher, writer and an Emmy Award-winning storyteller! Tune in to dive deep into topics of identity, healing, and liberation within oppressive systems.
In this episode, we chat about:
- The ripple effects that either reinforce or work against systems of oppression
- Kim Thai's mission to help others reclaim their power and freedom in the world.
- Ancestral practice and the healing power it can bring.
- The intersection of Buddhist teachings and modern everyday life.
- The concept of mindfulness in the attention economy.
- Engaged Buddhism and adapting teachings to address current societal needs.
- The commitment to transparency and learning from mistakes in the journey towards social justice and equity.
You can find our guest at:
- Substack: @kimthai
- Website: www.thekimthai.com
You can follow me at:
- Instagram: @stevenwakabayashi
- YouTube: @stevenwakabayashi
- Subscribe to my weekly newsletter: mindfulmoments.substack.com
- Visit our website yellowglitterpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
That moment before you're about toclick on purchasing something, is your
action, is your, your literal consumptionof that transaction going to create a
ripple effect that actually increasesor affirms the cycles that we live
in, or is it going to go against it?
You know, a lot of feedback thatI get, or, or folks that I hold
(00:23):
in space with is like, well, my,my one action doesn't matter.
The answer is that it just does.
That one action creates another reaction.
And so your actions can eitherreinforce capitalism, white supremacy,
dominant culture, racism, all theisms, or your actions can work against.
(01:05):
Hi everyone, my name isStephen Wakabayashi and you're
listening to Yellow Glitter.
Perspectives from creation creatorsand change makers making an impact.
This episode we're joined by anextra special guest, Kim Thai.
Kim Thai, she, her, is a writer,mindfulness teacher, community organizer,
and Emmy Award winning storyteller.
(01:25):
She is a certified yoga meditationteacher and is currently a
student in Zen Master Thich NhatPlum Village Buddhist Tradition.
She is the founder of Joyful LiberationCollective, a grassroots community
organization that provides the spaceand ways to find liberation within
the oppressive systems we live in.
As a queer Asian woman and proud kidof Vietnamese refugees, her personal
(01:47):
mission is to help others reclaimtheir power and freedom in the world.
Her personal essays on identityand healing have been published
in New York magazine's The Cut.
Newsweek, BuzzFeed, andmany other publications.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Hi Steven.
Hi.
It's good to have you back.
(02:08):
And I'm curious, is itsnowing up there yet?
No, but it got real cold.
I was like, Yeah, it'salso real cold in the city.
What's the temp down there?
It's like in the 20s to 40s today.
Yeah, it's 29 here.
It's supposed to snow tomorrow.
(02:28):
But yeah, I'm so glad to be back.
I was just reflecting on thefirst time we ever did this.
We weren't like really friends yet.
And it feels like so much has happened.
We've, our friendship has grown somuch since that first conversation.
So I have a specialspot for yellow glitter.
(02:50):
Thank you.
And as we start off all of ourepisodes, I'm just curious,
what's been on your mind lately?
I mean, so many things.
I actually just had a really beautifulconversation with one of my mentors
about healing, you know, honoringour ancestors and how ancestral
(03:13):
practice can be really healing.
And, you know, I've just been tryingto find different ways to share
the practice through my writing.
And so that's been.
A really big focus of mine as of late.
And especially when it comes to writing,what have you been writing about lately?
(03:35):
What's been top of mind there?
I'm really trying to take alot of Buddhist teachings that
I'm still learning, right?
Like I'm on my path and hope oneday I'll become a Dharma teacher.
It's like a 10 year processin the tradition I'm in.
Definitely a practice of patience, butyeah, I think that there's so much about
(04:01):
the Dharma that can be applied to our verymodern everyday life, and so I really, you
know, in the same way that it helps me.
I try to share thatperspective with folks.
Like I wrote something recently aboutlike the attention economy and how
(04:23):
exhausting it can be to like constantlyHave people be like screaming at you
and being like click on this uh buy thisopen my email blah blah blah and I think
so much of what mindfulness is about islike focusing your awareness and where do
(04:45):
you put your attention and there's a bigteaching there of like not letting it get
bogarted by other things and, and really.
Letting it be an intentional choiceof ours of where we, where we
put our attention in the world.
Yeah.
(05:05):
For listeners who may not be familiarwith Dharma and also Thich Nhat Hanh,
do you want to share a little bit moreabout the lineage and what the Dharma is?
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks.
I can get really boonist andnerdy fast, uh, steaming.
So, um, Yeah, so the Dharma isanother way of describing the
(05:31):
teachings in the Buddhist tradition.
And so in, in all Buddhist sort ofphilosophy and perspective, all of it is
rooted within three sort of major pillarsor what they call the three jewels,
which is the Buddha Dharma and Shada.
And it's these three jewelsare like basically like.
(05:55):
You can't live life withoutthese things, right?
And, or you can, but you're suffering,the way you move through life will be
a lot, lot more challenging withoutthese, the, these three things.
So the Buddha being not necessarilylike the story of the Buddha,
which is beautiful, but likethe Buddha within us, right?
(06:16):
Like within our own personal awakeningand what we can touch into ourselves.
And then the Dharma, which isthe teachings that came from
Siddhartha Gautama, you know, thehistorical Buddha, and then the
third being Sangha, or community.
So, this is something that,Is really, really important
(06:38):
to me, an integral in my life.
Something that you and Ihave shared both in building
community, ourselves and together.
And so those are just really vital.
That's also really relevantas a master te Hans tradition
who, who started Plum Village.
You know, there's so many things I couldsay about him and you know, the tradition
(07:03):
itself really resonates with me because.
It comes from a Vietnamese lineageand ironically, even though so many
of these practices originate fromEast Asia and Southeast Asia, it
has been co opted and capitalizedby so much whiteness in the West.
(07:30):
And I know that's something you and Ihave really passionately talked about too.
And so like, being in a practicewhere like, So much of my own personal
heritage is infused in the spirituality.
Feels not only empowering, you know,it's not just an act of reclamation,
(07:53):
but it also feels like home,which feels really, really great.
And so, Zen master Tikna Han isreally kind of revolutionary in this
way of continuing to honor where wecame from and all the roots of his
(08:15):
Vietnamese heritage and VietnameseBuddhism specifically, and how he
made it really accessible to the West.
Like, I'll never forget the firsttime I went to the monastery.
Everyone was speaking Vietnamese there,and like, they had, uh, headphones.
(08:37):
for the folks who did it.
And I just thought that was so radicaland amazing to be like, yeah, cool.
This is, this is the dominantsort of language here.
This is, this is the culturethat you're stepping into.
And I think that I'd never reallyexperienced that outside the context
(08:59):
of my sort of extended family and maybesome restaurants in different Chinatowns,
you know, in, in Texas and New Yorkand LA, but And that was really so
awesome, especially since so much of myspiritual path has been walking into a
predominantly white space, walking intoa predominantly cis white space, walking
(09:23):
into a predominantly cis white, straight,able bodied, skinny white space, right?
And so to go in and, and, and see that,I was like, whoa, oh, this is awesome.
And the fact that his approach.
And his way of teaching can bring in somany folks of all different backgrounds,
(09:47):
I think is really such a beautifulexpression of, of the Dharma and, and,
and his wisdom and how there is a bitof all of it that people can touch.
And so that's, that's whatI really love about it.
Yeah.
And it should also be noted.
(10:08):
Even abroad, in many parts of Asia,where you have a lot more predominant
white audience, Asian teachers.
Asian monasteries still teachin English because this is the
expectation of how we serve.
(10:29):
A cis, white, straight, hetero,able bodied, skinny narrative.
Let me ask you, just, um, youmentioned it resonated with you, but
also as a part of the, also the noteto add to is when I went to study
the Plum Village lineage in France.
(10:52):
The best food, some of the best food thatthese Vietnamese monks and nuns can cook.
And then another add on and how it'salso different, I want to ask you that
too, um, but how The Thich Nhat Hanh'stradition is so much more of a modern
(11:15):
approach and very mindful, attentivewith also what's happening in the world,
creating space for activism as a part ofthe practice and the lineage, and then
also not having such militant practicewhere the monk and nuns who love to
cook, you know, they're able to cook.
(11:37):
All day, um, spend time going outand about, they're able to have
phones, whereas some monasteriesare big, you know, you don't own
anything, and they're not able tohave any products, any devices.
Specifically for you, why, why thislineage, and what about it has been
(11:58):
different for you that it's been soresonant in sticking with your life?
Yeah, for sure.
I appreciate you bringing, giving a shoutout to the food because it is, like, some
of the best food you can get, I think.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think for me, thePlum Village tradition, uh, so we say
(12:22):
Th in our tradition, that means teacherin Vietnamese, um, when we, when we
referred as a Master Thich Nhat Hanh.
Um, so it resonates really deeplywith me because The tradition was
born out of war, and that is verymuch a part of my family history.
(12:43):
My parents are, are war refugees and, and,you know, Thay learned a more traditional
Vietnamese Buddhist lineage before that.
But he was kind of a radical, you know,um, he was very much about activism
and in a lot of more traditionalBuddhist lineages, like everything
(13:08):
is practiced within the monastery.
Like that's where you go to seek refuge.
But Tay was like, why?
Why not bring it outside of the monastery?
Why not try to get everyoneto practice mindfulness?
Why is it only within a monastic order?
And so even that idea initself was revolutionary.
(13:32):
Right.
So I think especially as He gotexiled from Vietnam, his home
country, my home country, like myparents home country, like because
he advocated for peace, right?
Like he literally didn't have a placeanymore to call home and he wasn't
(13:52):
alone in that experience either.
And so that's why he was really motivatedto start this tradition in France, which
is one of the places where they openedup their doors to Vietnam War refugees.
First, it was really just like, how canhe serve the folks who literally just got
(14:13):
removed from their home against their willand, uh, and, and give them a home, a new
type of home and, and, and a rec, in a, ina teaching that home is within ourselves
and not necessarily a place or location.
And it's a really interesting storybecause he started really practicing
with them and all these French peoplewere like, what's going on over there?
(14:38):
Which I think is such a funny thing.
They were like, everybodyseems really chill and relaxed
and really sweet and kind.
And so all these French people, likeliterally the energy of the mindfulness,
they could feel it, you know, andall these French folks started asking
him if they could also practice.
(14:59):
And so it organically kind of startedgrowing in such a beautiful way.
And.
Now it's become the largest Buddhistpracticing community ever, and I think
for me that those roots of like, activism,like literally he started a new style
(15:20):
called Engage Buddhism, where you take theteachings and you apply it to every day.
At the core of that is like, youhave to adapt to the times, right?
You have to adapt to what the needs areof the community in order for everyone
to be in harmony with each other.
And so I think it's always beenreally interesting for me to see that
(15:46):
in contrast to like going to moretraditional monasteries where You know,
the monastics don't even talk to you.
In Vietnamese monasteries,it's like, emoji sign, X up.
Like, what?
No.
They're not even able to interactwith regular folks like you and me.
So, I think it's amazing that there'sjust this inherent infusing of we need to
(16:13):
continue to find ways to re engage and reinterpret and re express the the teachings
that can really resonate both insideand outside the walls of a monastery.
Yeah, I love that.
I think also with the practice he doesn'ttake himself so seriously and so many
(16:36):
of the folks they really practice thisconcept of lightness whereas when I
was studying a ton of meditation Youmentioned the separation, right, of the
lay people, the visitors, the personwho isn't necessarily a monk or nun, and
those monks and nuns and other teachers,and sometimes they have facilities
(16:57):
where you don't even see them at all.
And that's the whole thing.
Yeah, totally.
A little bit of purity culture, right?
A little bit of, um, this whole aspectof, um, holding this thing so far away.
And when I was actually in France,everything was free game for anyone.
And so for the monks who werepracticing in their own space, uh,
(17:20):
as a lay person myself, they'reinviting folks to sit with them.
They're like, it's alittle bit more intense.
You just let you know, alittle bit longer session.
Uh, but they're like,anyone is open to come.
And same, uh, vice versa.
And I think what was also radical was,although I think they're still figuring
(17:41):
out how to approach the whole aspect oflike the monk or nun situation, because
I think with the facilities that hemade in France, it was pretty far away.
But they specifically created programmingwhere they would visit one another,
and so compare that to also a lot ofother more, right, traditional lineages,
(18:02):
they're very big on separation of gender.
They actually had affinitygroups last time I visited.
in France.
So they had affinity groups for the queercommunity as a part of breakout sessions.
And I was very, very impressed with howinclusive and how mindful they were.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think I thinkthe sheer fact that there's so much
(18:27):
homophobia in, in, in, inherent inso many different Asian cultures.
And I remember going to Blue Cliff, whichis not far from here, from where I live.
It's out in upstate New Yorkand I believe, uh, Munsee Lenape
land, also known as Pine Bush.
And I was like, Oh man, I reallyhope this isn't a barrier, right?
(18:49):
I really hope that there isn't.
weirdness because I had had trauma frommy own culture at that point of feeling
not accepted and feeling like parts ofmy identity were at odds with each other
in that sort of intersectional conflict.
And I came with my wife and Jess and weshowed up and the sister had never met
(19:15):
me before and she just hugged me forlike what felt like forever like you know
when you're like you're like ready topull and she just kept on staying there
and it was such a loving embrace andI've brought a lot of my queer friends
and non binary trans friends there andthey've just been, they go out of their
(19:38):
way to make sure people feel accepted.
And I think that's extraordinary.
And I know that might seem like to alot of folks who aren't as familiar
with Buddhist culture, like, well,duh, like it's 2024, but like, that's
very, very, revolutionary in so manydifferent ways and the fact that
(19:59):
they accept queer monastics and thefact that they're talking about how
to address people who are non binaryand trans who want to be monastics,
like how do they go about creatingconditions that might be that way,
like just having an open dialogue aboutit, I think is really, really radical.
(20:20):
So I think it's been healing forme on a multitude of levels too.
experience that feeling of home andacceptance where in other places
where maybe I haven't had access to.
Yeah.
Recently, within the last year, yourorganization also had a shift, huge shift.
(20:44):
I wanted to ask you if you wantto share any of those large
changes, especially even the name.
I think last time we talked,You still had it running under
a different organization's name.
You had changed thename this year as well.
And I want to share alittle more about that.
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, we went through a big shiftthis last year where my non profit was,
(21:11):
we went through a huge name change.
And, um, we were originally calledGoodness Space and decided to
really let go and release that name.
After a lot of, you know, I think of someof our community members from our South
Asian community really invited us to thinkabout why we were using the name, um, how
(21:36):
it was in reverence or not in reverenceof the deity Ganesha and, you know, how
it could be culturally appropriate and,you know, as a collective, we sat down and
really looked at it as a teaching momentfor us, you know, and particularly myself.
I think I went to India and was soswept away with the yogic teachings.
(22:04):
This was like, you know, six yearsago now at this point, almost seven.
And really felt a strong connectionwith the story of Ganesha in terms
of being this elephant god, havingan interesting sort of different half
human, half animal body, being the sortof scribe for the teachings in yoga,
(22:27):
and being a symbol for new beginnings.
And so I was really called to Ganesha.
name a space that I wanted afterhim or them, you know, they show
up non binary in some, some ofthe folklore and, and teachings.
And then, you know, so it wasreally such a moment for me to
(22:49):
be like, Oh my gosh, of course.
Right.
Like, of course that this isn't,this could be harmful, right.
To, to other folks in, in, in that itcould possibly be harmful in the sense
of like, me extracting their culturefrom them and benefiting from it right?
(23:11):
And, and even though we were anonprofit, even though our books
are read, it didn't really matter.
It was about the philosophical and itwas about the sort of inherent aspect of
the culture of honoring that truly andlistening to the, to the people who said
that they were, uncomfortable with that.
(23:32):
And, you know, it really feltlike a moment where we could
either be like, eh, who cares?
Or we could actually stepinto what we preach, right?
And practice that andbe vulnerable with it.
And that was really, really importantto myself and to all of our other
teachers to be really transparentabout our process and our learning
(23:55):
because This journey is messy, right?
Like, I think one of the thingsthat you and I have talked about
before is like, when you're learningabout social justice and equity and
learning about how to move throughthe world, you're gonna make mistakes.
You're gonna trip over things.
You're gonna get into potholes.
(24:16):
And by pretending like those mistakesdon't happen, exist or brushing them aside
or ignoring them and, and, and not, youknow, claiming responsibility for your
actions is another upholding of supremacyin some capacity and oppression, right?
(24:39):
It's upholding perfectionism.
It's ignoring sort of the key sortof harm that you're doing in, in
your oppression towards others.
And so We were like, yeah, we got tobe open and honest about everything.
And our community wasreally, really receptive.
They were amazing about it.
And I think really appreciatedhow vulnerable we were.
(25:00):
I think it's something that the yogacommunity, the wellness community
as a whole really struggles with oflike, how do we move through and want
to engage with these practices in away that doesn't feel appropriative,
that doesn't feel like extraction.
And also honor the passion that theyfeel in wanting to share it and it's
(25:23):
such a a relatable sort of personalconflict that I think we shared.
And after that, we went through months,like six months, I think, of looking at
if this is a moment where we can pivot andlearn, where do we want to move towards?
What do we want to stand for?
(25:43):
Right.
And how can we be clear about that?
And one of the things thatwe did like this big word
cloud exercise with our team.
And one of the things that.
The, the, the words that popped upwere joy and liberation and collective
because we work as a collective, right?
We work as a collaborative leadershipmodel, which is really challenging
(26:08):
because the systems are not built thatway, but we do it because we need, we
want to, to, to do things differently.
And so, That's where we came upwith the name and you know, That
was also received really well.
I mean we got so many differentresponses immediately that was like,
oh, yeah, I want to I want to be joyful.
(26:30):
I want to be liberated I want to beliberated by finding joy, right or I want
to find joy I want to practice joy andthen let that be a gateway for liberation.
So I think it was very resonant for peoplein that way and was really such, not just
a personal teaching for me, a personalteaching moment for me, but also just
(26:52):
showing the importance of language andshowing the importance of perspective
and, you know, I've always been reallyopen and honest that, like, of course,
my own perspective is limited, right?
And that's why I believe in acollaborative leadership model
for our non profit, because Iknow that my lived experience is
(27:14):
not the only lived experience.
And if we're, if we're going toserve people of a wide and diverse
spectrum, hopefully, then we gotto have more folks in the room.
And I wish that was the case for allplaces, but, you know, we're trying
to set an example by modeling it.
Yeah, I absolutely love that.
(27:35):
And also, not being so tied to,well, we had done that already.
Let's just keep going.
And sometimes you see this also happeningon social media and the media landscape,
People, politicians, just dig their heelsinto the ground, uh, when they realize
that maybe they made a little oopsies andthe more that I feel that I'm learning
(28:01):
about the world, the more I realizenothing is really Ever, even as we move
towards equity and things that are moreequitable, we can always change and shift
and evolve and what I'm learning morein this work is also where we are today,
maybe we realize 10 years from now, whatthe heck are we doing, why are we talking
like that, and the more malleable we canbe to change, I think then we usher in
(28:26):
more changes for us and our communities.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, I think it's like how itkind of goes back to our conversation
just now about the Plum Village tradition.
How can you expect people, how canyou appeal and how can you serve
a wider community if you're notadapting and listening to them, you
(28:48):
know, and I think that's at the coreof what it means to be of service.
Yeah, and speaking of service, I knowa lot of your work has been shifting
over to doing your writing, talkingabout your experiences, your queer
experiences, your Asian experiences,and I'm just curious, has any of your
piece, specifically written within thelast year since we talked, has been
(29:13):
really resonant for you in particular?
You're like, they're all amazing.
Oh, I wish.
I mean, I'm happy tohave the practice of it.
I mean, I think something that I've beenlike reconnecting with a little bit that
I don't have as much in my sub stack,but is part of the book I'm writing,
(29:38):
just half memoir, half mindfulness guideon reclaiming our power in the world by
understanding that we're, we're born good.
Is that, you know, I've beenreally reconnecting to my poetry.
It's been such a beautifulexercise of like doing something
(30:01):
that I feel like I'm not the bestat, if that makes sense, right?
Like I, it's such apractice of imperfection.
Also, I find that the placeswhere I tend to be the most
raw and honest and truthful.
You know, I have a beautiful writinggroup that I'm a part of called
(30:25):
Narrative Healing by, that is run byLisa Weinert, and I would recommend it
to anyone who's interested in findingcommunity through their writing.
We actually are doing a retreat laterin the year too that I can share, you
know, with Steven to share with y'all.
But I know when I'm reading somethingout loud, the way that it's landing in
(30:46):
my body, the way that I'm sharing itis coming from a place of truth, right?
I mean, I think.
As folks like you and I, who arecommunity organizers, who talk a lot
about social justice often, sometimesthese terms feel like terms, right?
Like in a, it's easy to kind of fallin this rut of like, yeah, let's
(31:08):
talk about white supremacy now.
Yeah.
Let's talk about equity now.
And it just to feel like vocabularythat you don't, you heard in some sort
of college DEI And so what I reallytry to do with my writing is to like,
go down deep and dig into the truthof my experience with those things.
(31:31):
And when I'm reading and sharing,I can literally feel if it's coming
from my heart or my gut, or if it'scoming just from my brain, you know?
And it's usually a combination ofall those things It's readable.
It can't be one or the other.
So, um, And so, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat in the past, my other pieces, those,
(31:58):
those pieces have resonated a lot withfolks, and particularly I'm thinking
about my New York Mag piece from a coupleof years ago, and I think the things
that resonate are just those moments.
of truths, right?
Um, I, you know, that attentionto economy piece did really well.
(32:21):
And also, you know, I had a piece recentlyon like, why is it so hard for us to rest?
Because it's like, so universal,this feeling, you know?
So, and I'm trying to figure itout just as much as everyone else.
And, you know, I'm just trying to figureit out in a way, in my own way, and
(32:41):
sharing it in, in as honest and truthfulas I can to be of service, you know,
with, with the hope that perhaps sharingmy story and my intersectional, with
the intersectional identities that Ihold, that somebody else out there can
be like, this queer Asian woman witha larger body, like, is going through
(33:03):
this experience and, I thought I wasalone this whole time, you know, cause
I definitely felt that growing up.
I know a lot of other people have,so in a lot of ways, I'm kind
of writing for Little Kim too.
Not like Lil Kim, but you know.
Lil Kim, if you're outthere, this is for you.
(33:36):
I see you'll pick it up.
So with your writing, I mean,I mean, go back to that piece.
Why is it hard to rest?
Just touching on that real quick.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I feel like you andI can talk about this so extensively
that I think We live in a worldwhere we are trained to not rest,
(34:02):
where folks don't want us to rest.
Um, I think because of the internalizedcapitalism that we live in, it's like,
Oh, we are literally programmed to beworking robots, you know, and to not
have a life, to not have humanity,to not be in touch with our body or
our feelings or the present moment.
(34:24):
And so I think.
If the conditions in which we grew up thatway tell us that, and then the environment
that we are also moving through reinforcesthat, it's so hard to do, right?
It takes really an act ofresistance in order to rest, right?
(34:45):
Like Audre Lorde says that.
And so I think like, there are smalland big ways I do that, and it's, and
it's a work in progress, you know?
Um, I also think that there isquite especially for Asian folks and
ingrained sort of feeling of workethic of wanting to succeed for a
(35:07):
certain American dream or to be acertain type of model minority that I
think is also ingrained in us as well.
And so it's recognizing.
If you're living in the world todie, you're most likely living with
capitalism in some way in your body orwanting to strive towards capitalism.
(35:28):
And then I think depending onthe identities you hold, that
could be even more amplified inways that you're not aware of.
Deeper question part two, why dowe keep striving for it so much?
Oh my gosh, you're liketotally on your die in soul.
You're on to this morning.
You were like, I'm really tired.
(35:50):
So tell me about that trauma.
Fast forward 30 minutes, read yourpoetry on the spot, Kim Thai yeah.
Tell me about your mother.
So I've brought some ofyour old poetry on air.
Can you talk about this one line?
Bring him out.
(36:11):
Was that your mother?
Heard that Lil Kim.
I'm sorry, I forgot your question.
Follow up question.
We talk so much about capitalism.
I mean, on this podcast,we've talked about it, right?
(36:32):
I feel like on social media, I see itall the time where people talk against
it, but the machine is still running.
And so I'm curious if you'vehad any reflections on why we
continue to keep operating thismachine, the meta of the meta.
Why we because because webecause we because we One.
(36:54):
It's easier to do that, right?
Like, I think Kelly Palmer talksabout this really beautifully.
Another great teacher talks about RAS.
Of course, Trisha Hershey.
There's so many others, but like, Ithink in order to keep on buying into
the system, whether it's capitalism,whether it's white supremacy, you'll
have to make sacrifice, right?
So I think a really simple way oftalking about this is like, what would
(37:19):
it take for us to stop buying on Amazon?
I can literally name one friendwho doesn't use Amazon, and I
don't include myself in that.
Like, I prime that shitall the time, right?
And so, like, it's like thinking through,like, wow, like, that moment before
you're about to click on purchasingsomething, is your action, is your,
(37:42):
your literal consumption of that.
transaction going to create a rippleeffect that actually increases or
affirms the cycles that we live in,or is it going to go against it?
And I know that, you know, a lot offeedback that I get or, or folks that
I hold in space with is like, well, my,my one action doesn't matter, right?
(38:06):
Like I get overwhelmed.
Why, why would my onething make a difference?
The answer is that it just does.
I know it doesn't feel that way.
I know, especially, you know, when itcomes to our systems of government, it
doesn't feel that way, but the sheerfact is that there is, it is literally
(38:30):
physics, it is literally science thatone action creates another reaction.
And so your actions can eitherreinforce capitalism, white supremacy,
dominant culture, racism, all the.
isms or your actionscan, uh, work against.
(38:52):
And I think way I move through life isnot necessarily having the expectation
that I can change the system, but feelingthe empowered choice that the way I
move through it and my relationshipto the system is what is going to
give me freedom and liberation of it.
(39:18):
I like that lesson a lot.
The way you move through it is moreimportant than the And output results.
So as also a part of somebody who'sgetting back, posting your stuff online
and your content, and I think it'salso relevant to the conversation of
(39:42):
capitalism to where We have TikTok shop,Instagram shop, and all these social
medias have commerce directly integratedwithin, you know, how have you been
navigating broadly the media landscape,especially as you're starting to get
into publishing your content, right?
How has that been like, navigatingit, and how have you been able to keep
(40:07):
your sanity and your consciousness?
present alongside yourwork while you navigate it?
Yeah, I think I was really overwhelmed bythe divisive discourse that happened at
the end of last year after 10 7 and thenseeing how much atrocities continue to
(40:34):
happen in Gaza and how it continues to.
be such a brutal force of violenceand a re expression of trauma
in so many different ways.
And I think, you know, in terms ofsocial activism, you know, on a platform,
(41:01):
it's become sort of culture to bereactive and speak out immediately.
And I understand that.
And I respect that.
And I also.
Don't move through the work that way.
And I think that there's not a lotof space for a different way of
(41:22):
being, which to me feels oppressive.
So I really, you know, had totake a step back and be like,
why am I on these platforms?
To begin with, it wasreally an invitation, right?
Of how do I want to connectwith folks and how will my.
what I hope to do and sharewith the world, where will it
(41:46):
best be of, of, of service.
And so I really took abig break from social.
I'm still off of it.
I think one of the ways that I reconcile,again, that relationship between the
oppressive systems we live in and havingto have one foot in and one foot out is
(42:09):
that I hired someone to do my social.
You know, she's an amazing, you know,BIPOC person, and I was just like, okay,
here's the deal, I don't want to engagein this platform, in these platforms that
(42:30):
literally trigger my anxiety, that putme in a different state energetically, is
not good for my mental health for a numberof reasons, but I still have to kind of
play within the game a little bit, right?
Unfortunately.
And so that time away, I was like, well,what if I just had someone else do it?
(42:52):
And, and I have that resource.
I have that privilege.
I totally recognize that.
And it's been, like, revelatory.
Like, I don't miss it at all.
I deleted it from my phone.
My fucking carpal tunnel in myright arm stopped because I was,
like, so used to swiping, right?
(43:14):
Like, it's, like, amazing when youstart seeing, like, whoa, like, these
habits, this habit energy of, like, thatyou're not even conscious or aware of.
Yeah, that's a really good expression of,like, Working within the confines of the
systems, but still me, myself, findingways that I could be free and, and finding
(43:40):
ways that I, that it won't take away fromthe quality of life that I want to live.
Deeply resonate with that too.
Social has just been so, socialhas really changed in a way that
I don't think has really upliftedalternative perspectives, uplifted
(44:03):
diverse thought, ways of thinking.
It's just really turned intolike a typical media channel.
You know, one time, Blue Moon ago, I had,uh, uh, uh, interviewed for BuzzFeed.
Like, this was in themid, like, early 2010s.
During their high, I interviewed withthem, and in their offices, they had TVs
(44:23):
that basically had a real time tickerof everyone's articles that were Uh,
going viral, who was getting the mostnumber of hits every 24 hours in a 7
day cycle, and they were just competing.
Who would be able to create the contentthat would get onto the TV, and then
people would be rewarded in doing so.
And social media, with everyone trying sohard to become an influencer these days.
(44:48):
To get content, to get seed, everyoneis racing for whatever has the
buzziest, uh, most relevant content.
And then also in the newscycle, right, you have this
adage, if it bleeds, it leads.
And how violence, how pain, how allthese things are perpetuated solely for
(45:11):
the sake of monetization, for attention.
And so, I think what you'vebeen doing is starting to head
towards a more balanced place.
I commend you for it.
And yeah, I wonder if you haveany tips for folks who might
be feeling a very similar way.
Other guests I brought on have alsomentioned very similar things about
(45:34):
the convoluted nature of social media.
I wonder if you, as we start podcast,just any tips on social media
and navigating media landscape?
Yeah, for sure.
And also I pulled up a poem sowe can end with that if you want.
(45:54):
Yes.
Come through Lil Kim.
In terms of tips for being onsocial media and consuming any media
in general, I would just reallyinvite the question of like, why?
(46:15):
You know, like, I, I think, I thinkeven just spending time with that
question of why, why are we on socialso we can be connected to people?
Okay, well, are you reallyconnecting to people in the way
that you want to be connecting?
Does it feel like ameaningful relationship?
(46:35):
Are you reaching the people that you wantto be reaching if that's the case, right?
Or are you just kind of unconsciouslygoing through that sort of habitual
nature of liking somebody'sposts who you barely know, right?
Or ignoring a DM from someonewho you might actually want
(47:00):
to connect with, right?
Like we start building habitson top of other habits.
You know, and again, the question is whydo you want to, is it because it brings
you some levity and some joy in your day?
Amazing.
That's beautiful.
Is that the only thing it's doing?
Is it also inviting violence?
(47:20):
Is it also inviting anxiety?
Is it also inviting divisiveness,right, in your life?
And are there other ways for you toaccess joy and levity that are not?
within a 30 second animal video.
Which can be awesome too, right?
(47:41):
I'm not knocking that.
I'm just asking for folks to zoom out,to both zoom out and to dive deeper
within themselves and see that why.
And if you're feeling a lot ofresistance to, like, letting it
go, Again, why is that , right?
(48:02):
Mm-Hmm.
And really looking at this attachmentand seeing if it's really serving to be
something that maybe you didn't intendfor it to be, and can you actually go
back to that route in tension and look atways that you can actually fill that need?
(48:25):
That you might have that is kindof being filled by social in a
way that might not serve you.
So, and like, more practicallyspeaking, like, just take a
break to see how it feels.
Like, if you thought that was allmumbo jumbo and like Kim is full
of shit, then like, just like gooff of social for like a week.
(48:49):
And see what happens, see what happensto your eyes if they're not as tired,
see what happens to your hand becauseyou're not scrolling as much, see if
you're more present or if you're morefocused, or if you're having withdrawals,
which has also been recorded in a lotof scientific research, like, that says
(49:11):
something, and so, uh, Don't take myword for it, just try it, you know?
Mm hmm, I love that.
And my takeaway from that is alsothere's one part which is the
observation, inquiry, and thenthe other part is reflecting on
how we're reacting to it, right?
(49:31):
Where we can observe.
Maybe we do have this compulsion todig, dig, dig, dig, dig, and to follow.
And then I really love how youpointed, you know, how Are these
really your social connection?
And my reflection to that, just lookingat the last 10 posts I was looking at
on social media, do I even know them?
(49:54):
Are those people even folksthat I would want to consider
as a part of my social circle?
I thought that was veryinteresting insight.
Are you ready for your poem, primetime?
I mean, are you ready for my poem?
I'm ready.
Heh, heh, heh.
Lay it on me.
(50:14):
So I'm not gonna hedge it becauseI've, you know, uh, have been lovingly
encouraged not to hedge anything.
But, uh, I will give some backgroundthat this is a poem I wrote a long
time ago, like maybe a little over 10years ago, and I actually wrote it on
(50:36):
a retreat the last day of a retreat.
Um, the teacher, um, invited us towrite a note, a letter to ourselves.
And then she kind of, and then we allput it in a basket and then she mailed
it to us like randomly months later.
And so it's such a beautiful sortof invitation of like dropping you
(50:57):
back in that space of where youwere after the end of a retreat.
This is a poem called A Note to Myself.
Don't forget you are beautiful and strong.
Take stock in that.
It is magical.
The road ahead will be brightand sometimes treacherous.
(51:19):
But you will, you are, forging ahead.
You are rising out of the sun.
Being born out of the light, that is you.
Oh, sweet.
Thanks.
Also, the first time Kim has readme a poem, so this is unprecedented.
(51:41):
You saw it here first, yellow glitter.
Listened to it here first.
Yeah.
That was beautiful.
Ten years ago.
I was trying to find one that's,like, not They got to be really
intense, so it was like, what, what.
Oh, that was fine.
I know, but, you know, that's a good, thatwas a one that I, that's still, I haven't
(52:05):
read that one actually in a really longtime, so it's nice to revisit it too.
Yeah.
And.
A note to myself, butalso a note to everybody.
Two questions.
One, how can people find you?
Yeah, so I think the best wayto connect with me these days is
(52:25):
to go subscribe to my Substack.
Um, all levels of support arewelcome and you can go to kimtai.
substack.
com and get my weekly mindfulnessnewsletter and, you know, be a part
of my reading community that way.
That's the best way.
And question two, what isbringing you joy lately?
(52:46):
Spaciousness for like everyday living.
Like, you know, yesterday my wifeand I stayed up a little bit too late
playing this board game, Raccoon Tycoon.
It was so funny.
(53:07):
The cards are so adorable.
They're like fancy catsand dogs and stuff.
It's also just like capitalismin a box, but whatever.
Like I said, we're all learning and youknow, and we're starting to plant our
seeds for our garden coming up and I justthink like, you know, parting, me stepping
(53:29):
back and also moving out of the city,which has been a big update, has been Just
kind of giving more space to things thatbring me peace and joy and not letting my
schedule be overfilled all the time withwork because that's the easy thing to do.
And as we wrap up, if youenjoyed this episode, please
(53:54):
leave us a rating and review.
This is how folks find us on thedifferent podcast platforms that you love.
If you want to follow us, we areon social at yellowglitterpodpd.
Feel free to give us your thoughts, yourideas, and also if you want to reach
out to us, you can find us online on ourwebsite for also full episode transcript
(54:18):
and show notes at yellowglitterpodcast.
com.
Well Kim, it's beenlovely having you back.
Thank you for sharing youradventures, shifts, and your moves.
into this new type of space foryourself and your organization.
I really appreciate it.
(54:39):
Your thoughts here today.
No, thank you always, Steven,for having me and for starting
and continuing this podcast.
I think it's so important, all theconversations you have, and I just
have so much love and respect for you.
And yeah, I can't wait to, tohear this more this season.
Thank you.
(54:59):
And with that, our space is now closed.
Thank you, listeners.
We'll see you again next time.
Bye, everyone.
That moment before you're about toclick on purchasing something, is your
action, is your, your literal consumptionof that transaction going to create a
ripple effect that actually increasesor affirms the cycles that we live
in, or is it going to go against it?
You know, a lot of feedback thatI get, or, or folks that I hold
(00:23):
in space with is like, well, my,my one action doesn't matter.
The answer is that it just does.
That one action creates another reaction.
And so your actions can eitherreinforce capitalism, white supremacy,
dominant culture, racism, all theisms, or your actions can work against.
(01:05):
Hi everyone, my name isStephen Wakabayashi and you're
listening to Yellow Glitter.
Perspectives from creation creatorsand change makers making an impact.
This episode we're joined by anextra special guest, Kim Thai.
Kim Thai, she, her, is a writer,mindfulness teacher, community organizer,
and Emmy Award winning storyteller.
(01:25):
She is a certified yoga meditationteacher and is currently a
student in Zen Master Thich NhatPlum Village Buddhist Tradition.
She is the founder of Joyful LiberationCollective, a grassroots community
organization that provides the spaceand ways to find liberation within
the oppressive systems we live in.
As a queer Asian woman and proud kidof Vietnamese refugees, her personal
(01:47):
mission is to help others reclaimtheir power and freedom in the world.
Her personal essays on identityand healing have been published
in New York magazine's The Cut.
Newsweek, BuzzFeed, andmany other publications.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Hi Steven.
Hi.
It's good to have you back.
(02:08):
And I'm curious, is itsnowing up there yet?
No, but it got real cold.
I was like, Yeah, it'salso real cold in the city.
What's the temp down there?
It's like in the 20s to 40s today.
Yeah, it's 29 here.
It's supposed to snow tomorrow.
(02:28):
But yeah, I'm so glad to be back.
I was just reflecting on thefirst time we ever did this.
We weren't like really friends yet.
And it feels like so much has happened.
We've, our friendship has grown somuch since that first conversation.
So I have a specialspot for yellow glitter.
(02:50):
Thank you.
And as we start off all of ourepisodes, I'm just curious,
what's been on your mind lately?
I mean, so many things.
I actually just had a really beautifulconversation with one of my mentors
about healing, you know, honoringour ancestors and how ancestral
(03:13):
practice can be really healing.
And, you know, I've just been tryingto find different ways to share
the practice through my writing.
And so that's been.
A really big focus of mine as of late.
And especially when it comes to writing,what have you been writing about lately?
(03:35):
What's been top of mind there?
I'm really trying to take alot of Buddhist teachings that
I'm still learning, right?
Like I'm on my path and hope oneday I'll become a Dharma teacher.
It's like a 10 year processin the tradition I'm in.
Definitely a practice of patience, butyeah, I think that there's so much about
(04:01):
the Dharma that can be applied to our verymodern everyday life, and so I really, you
know, in the same way that it helps me.
I try to share thatperspective with folks.
Like I wrote something recently aboutlike the attention economy and how
(04:23):
exhausting it can be to like constantlyHave people be like screaming at you
and being like click on this uh buy thisopen my email blah blah blah and I think
so much of what mindfulness is about islike focusing your awareness and where do
(04:45):
you put your attention and there's a bigteaching there of like not letting it get
bogarted by other things and, and really.
Letting it be an intentional choiceof ours of where we, where we
put our attention in the world.
Yeah.
(05:05):
For listeners who may not be familiarwith Dharma and also Thich Nhat Hanh,
do you want to share a little bit moreabout the lineage and what the Dharma is?
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks.
I can get really boonist andnerdy fast, uh, steaming.
So, um, Yeah, so the Dharma isanother way of describing the
(05:31):
teachings in the Buddhist tradition.
And so in, in all Buddhist sort ofphilosophy and perspective, all of it is
rooted within three sort of major pillarsor what they call the three jewels,
which is the Buddha Dharma and Shada.
And it's these three jewelsare like basically like.
(05:55):
You can't live life withoutthese things, right?
And, or you can, but you're suffering,the way you move through life will be
a lot, lot more challenging withoutthese, the, these three things.
So the Buddha being not necessarilylike the story of the Buddha,
which is beautiful, but likethe Buddha within us, right?
(06:16):
Like within our own personal awakeningand what we can touch into ourselves.
And then the Dharma, which isthe teachings that came from
Siddhartha Gautama, you know, thehistorical Buddha, and then the
third being Sangha, or community.
So, this is something that,Is really, really important
(06:38):
to me, an integral in my life.
Something that you and Ihave shared both in building
community, ourselves and together.
And so those are just really vital.
That's also really relevantas a master te Hans tradition
who, who started Plum Village.
You know, there's so many things I couldsay about him and you know, the tradition
(07:03):
itself really resonates with me because.
It comes from a Vietnamese lineageand ironically, even though so many
of these practices originate fromEast Asia and Southeast Asia, it
has been co opted and capitalizedby so much whiteness in the West.
(07:30):
And I know that's something you and Ihave really passionately talked about too.
And so like, being in a practicewhere like, So much of my own personal
heritage is infused in the spirituality.
Feels not only empowering, you know,it's not just an act of reclamation,
(07:53):
but it also feels like home,which feels really, really great.
And so, Zen master Tikna Han isreally kind of revolutionary in this
way of continuing to honor where wecame from and all the roots of his
(08:15):
Vietnamese heritage and VietnameseBuddhism specifically, and how he
made it really accessible to the West.
Like, I'll never forget the firsttime I went to the monastery.
Everyone was speaking Vietnamese there,and like, they had, uh, headphones.
(08:37):
for the folks who did it.
And I just thought that was so radicaland amazing to be like, yeah, cool.
This is, this is the dominantsort of language here.
This is, this is the culturethat you're stepping into.
And I think that I'd never reallyexperienced that outside the context
(08:59):
of my sort of extended family and maybesome restaurants in different Chinatowns,
you know, in, in Texas and New Yorkand LA, but And that was really so
awesome, especially since so much of myspiritual path has been walking into a
predominantly white space, walking intoa predominantly cis white space, walking
(09:23):
into a predominantly cis white, straight,able bodied, skinny white space, right?
And so to go in and, and, and see that,I was like, whoa, oh, this is awesome.
And the fact that his approach.
And his way of teaching can bring in somany folks of all different backgrounds,
(09:47):
I think is really such a beautifulexpression of, of the Dharma and, and,
and his wisdom and how there is a bitof all of it that people can touch.
And so that's, that's whatI really love about it.
Yeah.
And it should also be noted.
(10:08):
Even abroad, in many parts of Asia,where you have a lot more predominant
white audience, Asian teachers.
Asian monasteries still teachin English because this is the
expectation of how we serve.
(10:29):
A cis, white, straight, hetero,able bodied, skinny narrative.
Let me ask you, just, um, youmentioned it resonated with you, but
also as a part of the, also the noteto add to is when I went to study
the Plum Village lineage in France.
(10:52):
The best food, some of the best food thatthese Vietnamese monks and nuns can cook.
And then another add on and how it'salso different, I want to ask you that
too, um, but how The Thich Nhat Hanh'stradition is so much more of a modern
(11:15):
approach and very mindful, attentivewith also what's happening in the world,
creating space for activism as a part ofthe practice and the lineage, and then
also not having such militant practicewhere the monk and nuns who love to
cook, you know, they're able to cook.
(11:37):
All day, um, spend time going outand about, they're able to have
phones, whereas some monasteriesare big, you know, you don't own
anything, and they're not able tohave any products, any devices.
Specifically for you, why, why thislineage, and what about it has been
(11:58):
different for you that it's been soresonant in sticking with your life?
Yeah, for sure.
I appreciate you bringing, giving a shoutout to the food because it is, like, some
of the best food you can get, I think.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think for me, thePlum Village tradition, uh, so we say
(12:22):
Th in our tradition, that means teacherin Vietnamese, um, when we, when we
referred as a Master Thich Nhat Hanh.
Um, so it resonates really deeplywith me because The tradition was
born out of war, and that is verymuch a part of my family history.
(12:43):
My parents are, are war refugees and, and,you know, Thay learned a more traditional
Vietnamese Buddhist lineage before that.
But he was kind of a radical, you know,um, he was very much about activism
and in a lot of more traditionalBuddhist lineages, like everything
(13:08):
is practiced within the monastery.
Like that's where you go to seek refuge.
But Tay was like, why?
Why not bring it outside of the monastery?
Why not try to get everyoneto practice mindfulness?
Why is it only within a monastic order?
And so even that idea initself was revolutionary.
(13:32):
Right.
So I think especially as He gotexiled from Vietnam, his home
country, my home country, like myparents home country, like because
he advocated for peace, right?
Like he literally didn't have a placeanymore to call home and he wasn't
(13:52):
alone in that experience either.
And so that's why he was really motivatedto start this tradition in France, which
is one of the places where they openedup their doors to Vietnam War refugees.
First, it was really just like, how canhe serve the folks who literally just got
(14:13):
removed from their home against their willand, uh, and, and give them a home, a new
type of home and, and, and a rec, in a, ina teaching that home is within ourselves
and not necessarily a place or location.
And it's a really interesting storybecause he started really practicing
with them and all these French peoplewere like, what's going on over there?
(14:38):
Which I think is such a funny thing.
They were like, everybodyseems really chill and relaxed
and really sweet and kind.
And so all these French people, likeliterally the energy of the mindfulness,
they could feel it, you know, andall these French folks started asking
him if they could also practice.
(14:59):
And so it organically kind of startedgrowing in such a beautiful way.
And.
Now it's become the largest Buddhistpracticing community ever, and I think
for me that those roots of like, activism,like literally he started a new style
(15:20):
called Engage Buddhism, where you take theteachings and you apply it to every day.
At the core of that is like, youhave to adapt to the times, right?
You have to adapt to what the needs areof the community in order for everyone
to be in harmony with each other.
And so I think it's always beenreally interesting for me to see that
(15:46):
in contrast to like going to moretraditional monasteries where You know,
the monastics don't even talk to you.
In Vietnamese monasteries,it's like, emoji sign, X up.
Like, what?
No.
They're not even able to interactwith regular folks like you and me.
So, I think it's amazing that there'sjust this inherent infusing of we need to
(16:13):
continue to find ways to re engage and reinterpret and re express the the teachings
that can really resonate both insideand outside the walls of a monastery.
Yeah, I love that.
I think also with the practice he doesn'ttake himself so seriously and so many
(16:36):
of the folks they really practice thisconcept of lightness whereas when I
was studying a ton of meditation Youmentioned the separation, right, of the
lay people, the visitors, the personwho isn't necessarily a monk or nun, and
those monks and nuns and other teachers,and sometimes they have facilities
(16:57):
where you don't even see them at all.
And that's the whole thing.
Yeah, totally.
A little bit of purity culture, right?
A little bit of, um, this whole aspectof, um, holding this thing so far away.
And when I was actually in France,everything was free game for anyone.
And so for the monks who werepracticing in their own space, uh,
(17:20):
as a lay person myself, they'reinviting folks to sit with them.
They're like, it's alittle bit more intense.
You just let you know, alittle bit longer session.
Uh, but they're like,anyone is open to come.
And same, uh, vice versa.
And I think what was also radical was,although I think they're still figuring
(17:41):
out how to approach the whole aspect oflike the monk or nun situation, because
I think with the facilities that hemade in France, it was pretty far away.
But they specifically created programmingwhere they would visit one another,
and so compare that to also a lot ofother more, right, traditional lineages,
(18:02):
they're very big on separation of gender.
They actually had affinitygroups last time I visited.
in France.
So they had affinity groups for the queercommunity as a part of breakout sessions.
And I was very, very impressed with howinclusive and how mindful they were.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think I thinkthe sheer fact that there's so much
(18:27):
homophobia in, in, in, inherent inso many different Asian cultures.
And I remember going to Blue Cliff, whichis not far from here, from where I live.
It's out in upstate New Yorkand I believe, uh, Munsee Lenape
land, also known as Pine Bush.
And I was like, Oh man, I reallyhope this isn't a barrier, right?
(18:49):
I really hope that there isn't.
weirdness because I had had trauma frommy own culture at that point of feeling
not accepted and feeling like parts ofmy identity were at odds with each other
in that sort of intersectional conflict.
And I came with my wife and Jess and weshowed up and the sister had never met
(19:15):
me before and she just hugged me forlike what felt like forever like you know
when you're like you're like ready topull and she just kept on staying there
and it was such a loving embrace andI've brought a lot of my queer friends
and non binary trans friends there andthey've just been, they go out of their
(19:38):
way to make sure people feel accepted.
And I think that's extraordinary.
And I know that might seem like to alot of folks who aren't as familiar
with Buddhist culture, like, well,duh, like it's 2024, but like, that's
very, very, revolutionary in so manydifferent ways and the fact that
(19:59):
they accept queer monastics and thefact that they're talking about how
to address people who are non binaryand trans who want to be monastics,
like how do they go about creatingconditions that might be that way,
like just having an open dialogue aboutit, I think is really, really radical.
(20:20):
So I think it's been healing forme on a multitude of levels too.
experience that feeling of home andacceptance where in other places
where maybe I haven't had access to.
Yeah.
Recently, within the last year, yourorganization also had a shift, huge shift.
(20:44):
I wanted to ask you if you wantto share any of those large
changes, especially even the name.
I think last time we talked,You still had it running under
a different organization's name.
You had changed thename this year as well.
And I want to share alittle more about that.
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, we went through a big shiftthis last year where my non profit was,
(21:11):
we went through a huge name change.
And, um, we were originally calledGoodness Space and decided to
really let go and release that name.
After a lot of, you know, I think of someof our community members from our South
Asian community really invited us to thinkabout why we were using the name, um, how
(21:36):
it was in reverence or not in reverenceof the deity Ganesha and, you know, how
it could be culturally appropriate and,you know, as a collective, we sat down and
really looked at it as a teaching momentfor us, you know, and particularly myself.
I think I went to India and was soswept away with the yogic teachings.
(22:04):
This was like, you know, six yearsago now at this point, almost seven.
And really felt a strong connectionwith the story of Ganesha in terms
of being this elephant god, havingan interesting sort of different half
human, half animal body, being the sortof scribe for the teachings in yoga,
(22:27):
and being a symbol for new beginnings.
And so I was really called to Ganesha.
name a space that I wanted afterhim or them, you know, they show
up non binary in some, some ofthe folklore and, and teachings.
And then, you know, so it wasreally such a moment for me to
(22:49):
be like, Oh my gosh, of course.
Right.
Like, of course that this isn't,this could be harmful, right.
To, to other folks in, in, in that itcould possibly be harmful in the sense
of like, me extracting their culturefrom them and benefiting from it right?
(23:11):
And, and even though we were anonprofit, even though our books
are read, it didn't really matter.
It was about the philosophical and itwas about the sort of inherent aspect of
the culture of honoring that truly andlistening to the, to the people who said
that they were, uncomfortable with that.
(23:32):
And, you know, it really feltlike a moment where we could
either be like, eh, who cares?
Or we could actually stepinto what we preach, right?
And practice that andbe vulnerable with it.
And that was really, really importantto myself and to all of our other
teachers to be really transparentabout our process and our learning
(23:55):
because This journey is messy, right?
Like, I think one of the thingsthat you and I have talked about
before is like, when you're learningabout social justice and equity and
learning about how to move throughthe world, you're gonna make mistakes.
You're gonna trip over things.
You're gonna get into potholes.
(24:16):
And by pretending like those mistakesdon't happen, exist or brushing them aside
or ignoring them and, and, and not, youknow, claiming responsibility for your
actions is another upholding of supremacyin some capacity and oppression, right?
(24:39):
It's upholding perfectionism.
It's ignoring sort of the key sortof harm that you're doing in, in
your oppression towards others.
And so We were like, yeah, we got tobe open and honest about everything.
And our community wasreally, really receptive.
They were amazing about it.
And I think really appreciatedhow vulnerable we were.
(25:00):
I think it's something that the yogacommunity, the wellness community
as a whole really struggles with oflike, how do we move through and want
to engage with these practices in away that doesn't feel appropriative,
that doesn't feel like extraction.
And also honor the passion that theyfeel in wanting to share it and it's
(25:23):
such a a relatable sort of personalconflict that I think we shared.
And after that, we went through months,like six months, I think, of looking at
if this is a moment where we can pivot andlearn, where do we want to move towards?
What do we want to stand for?
(25:43):
Right.
And how can we be clear about that?
And one of the things thatwe did like this big word
cloud exercise with our team.
And one of the things that.
The, the, the words that popped upwere joy and liberation and collective
because we work as a collective, right?
We work as a collaborative leadershipmodel, which is really challenging
(26:08):
because the systems are not built thatway, but we do it because we need, we
want to, to, to do things differently.
And so, That's where we came upwith the name and you know, That
was also received really well.
I mean we got so many differentresponses immediately that was like,
oh, yeah, I want to I want to be joyful.
(26:30):
I want to be liberated I want to beliberated by finding joy, right or I want
to find joy I want to practice joy andthen let that be a gateway for liberation.
So I think it was very resonant for peoplein that way and was really such, not just
a personal teaching for me, a personalteaching moment for me, but also just
(26:52):
showing the importance of language andshowing the importance of perspective
and, you know, I've always been reallyopen and honest that, like, of course,
my own perspective is limited, right?
And that's why I believe in acollaborative leadership model
for our non profit, because Iknow that my lived experience is
(27:14):
not the only lived experience.
And if we're, if we're going toserve people of a wide and diverse
spectrum, hopefully, then we gotto have more folks in the room.
And I wish that was the case for allplaces, but, you know, we're trying
to set an example by modeling it.
Yeah, I absolutely love that.
(27:35):
And also, not being so tied to,well, we had done that already.
Let's just keep going.
And sometimes you see this also happeningon social media and the media landscape,
People, politicians, just dig their heelsinto the ground, uh, when they realize
that maybe they made a little oopsies andthe more that I feel that I'm learning
(28:01):
about the world, the more I realizenothing is really Ever, even as we move
towards equity and things that are moreequitable, we can always change and shift
and evolve and what I'm learning morein this work is also where we are today,
maybe we realize 10 years from now, whatthe heck are we doing, why are we talking
like that, and the more malleable we canbe to change, I think then we usher in
(28:26):
more changes for us and our communities.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, I think it's like how itkind of goes back to our conversation
just now about the Plum Village tradition.
How can you expect people, how canyou appeal and how can you serve
a wider community if you're notadapting and listening to them, you
(28:48):
know, and I think that's at the coreof what it means to be of service.
Yeah, and speaking of service, I knowa lot of your work has been shifting
over to doing your writing, talkingabout your experiences, your queer
experiences, your Asian experiences,and I'm just curious, has any of your
piece, specifically written within thelast year since we talked, has been
(29:13):
really resonant for you in particular?
You're like, they're all amazing.
Oh, I wish.
I mean, I'm happy tohave the practice of it.
I mean, I think something that I've beenlike reconnecting with a little bit that
I don't have as much in my sub stack,but is part of the book I'm writing,
(29:38):
just half memoir, half mindfulness guideon reclaiming our power in the world by
understanding that we're, we're born good.
Is that, you know, I've beenreally reconnecting to my poetry.
It's been such a beautifulexercise of like doing something
(30:01):
that I feel like I'm not the bestat, if that makes sense, right?
Like I, it's such apractice of imperfection.
Also, I find that the placeswhere I tend to be the most
raw and honest and truthful.
You know, I have a beautiful writinggroup that I'm a part of called
(30:25):
Narrative Healing by, that is run byLisa Weinert, and I would recommend it
to anyone who's interested in findingcommunity through their writing.
We actually are doing a retreat laterin the year too that I can share, you
know, with Steven to share with y'all.
But I know when I'm reading somethingout loud, the way that it's landing in
(30:46):
my body, the way that I'm sharing itis coming from a place of truth, right?
I mean, I think.
As folks like you and I, who arecommunity organizers, who talk a lot
about social justice often, sometimesthese terms feel like terms, right?
Like in a, it's easy to kind of fallin this rut of like, yeah, let's
(31:08):
talk about white supremacy now.
Yeah.
Let's talk about equity now.
And it just to feel like vocabularythat you don't, you heard in some sort
of college DEI And so what I reallytry to do with my writing is to like,
go down deep and dig into the truthof my experience with those things.
(31:31):
And when I'm reading and sharing,I can literally feel if it's coming
from my heart or my gut, or if it'scoming just from my brain, you know?
And it's usually a combination ofall those things It's readable.
It can't be one or the other.
So, um, And so, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat in the past, my other pieces, those,
(31:58):
those pieces have resonated a lot withfolks, and particularly I'm thinking
about my New York Mag piece from a coupleof years ago, and I think the things
that resonate are just those moments.
of truths, right?
Um, I, you know, that attentionto economy piece did really well.
(32:21):
And also, you know, I had a piece recentlyon like, why is it so hard for us to rest?
Because it's like, so universal,this feeling, you know?
So, and I'm trying to figure itout just as much as everyone else.
And, you know, I'm just trying to figureit out in a way, in my own way, and
(32:41):
sharing it in, in as honest and truthfulas I can to be of service, you know,
with, with the hope that perhaps sharingmy story and my intersectional, with
the intersectional identities that Ihold, that somebody else out there can
be like, this queer Asian woman witha larger body, like, is going through
(33:03):
this experience and, I thought I wasalone this whole time, you know, cause
I definitely felt that growing up.
I know a lot of other people have,so in a lot of ways, I'm kind
of writing for Little Kim too.
Not like Lil Kim, but you know.
Lil Kim, if you're outthere, this is for you.
(33:36):
I see you'll pick it up.
So with your writing, I mean,I mean, go back to that piece.
Why is it hard to rest?
Just touching on that real quick.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I feel like you andI can talk about this so extensively
that I think We live in a worldwhere we are trained to not rest,
(34:02):
where folks don't want us to rest.
Um, I think because of the internalizedcapitalism that we live in, it's like,
Oh, we are literally programmed to beworking robots, you know, and to not
have a life, to not have humanity,to not be in touch with our body or
our feelings or the present moment.
(34:24):
And so I think.
If the conditions in which we grew up thatway tell us that, and then the environment
that we are also moving through reinforcesthat, it's so hard to do, right?
It takes really an act ofresistance in order to rest, right?
(34:45):
Like Audre Lorde says that.
And so I think like, there are smalland big ways I do that, and it's, and
it's a work in progress, you know?
Um, I also think that there isquite especially for Asian folks and
ingrained sort of feeling of workethic of wanting to succeed for a
(35:07):
certain American dream or to be acertain type of model minority that I
think is also ingrained in us as well.
And so it's recognizing.
If you're living in the world todie, you're most likely living with
capitalism in some way in your body orwanting to strive towards capitalism.
(35:28):
And then I think depending onthe identities you hold, that
could be even more amplified inways that you're not aware of.
Deeper question part two, why dowe keep striving for it so much?
Oh my gosh, you're liketotally on your die in soul.
You're on to this morning.
You were like, I'm really tired.
(35:50):
So tell me about that trauma.
Fast forward 30 minutes, read yourpoetry on the spot, Kim Thai yeah.
Tell me about your mother.
So I've brought some ofyour old poetry on air.
Can you talk about this one line?
Bring him out.
(36:11):
Was that your mother?
Heard that Lil Kim.
I'm sorry, I forgot your question.
Follow up question.
We talk so much about capitalism.
I mean, on this podcast,we've talked about it, right?
(36:32):
I feel like on social media, I see itall the time where people talk against
it, but the machine is still running.
And so I'm curious if you'vehad any reflections on why we
continue to keep operating thismachine, the meta of the meta.
Why we because because webecause we because we One.
(36:54):
It's easier to do that, right?
Like, I think Kelly Palmer talksabout this really beautifully.
Another great teacher talks about RAS.
Of course, Trisha Hershey.
There's so many others, but like, Ithink in order to keep on buying into
the system, whether it's capitalism,whether it's white supremacy, you'll
have to make sacrifice, right?
So I think a really simple way oftalking about this is like, what would
(37:19):
it take for us to stop buying on Amazon?
I can literally name one friendwho doesn't use Amazon, and I
don't include myself in that.
Like, I prime that shitall the time, right?
And so, like, it's like thinking through,like, wow, like, that moment before
you're about to click on purchasingsomething, is your action, is your,
(37:42):
your literal consumption of that.
transaction going to create a rippleeffect that actually increases or
affirms the cycles that we live in,or is it going to go against it?
And I know that, you know, a lot offeedback that I get or, or folks that
I hold in space with is like, well, my,my one action doesn't matter, right?
(38:06):
Like I get overwhelmed.
Why, why would my onething make a difference?
The answer is that it just does.
I know it doesn't feel that way.
I know, especially, you know, when itcomes to our systems of government, it
doesn't feel that way, but the sheerfact is that there is, it is literally
(38:30):
physics, it is literally science thatone action creates another reaction.
And so your actions can eitherreinforce capitalism, white supremacy,
dominant culture, racism, all the.
isms or your actionscan, uh, work against.
(38:52):
And I think way I move through life isnot necessarily having the expectation
that I can change the system, but feelingthe empowered choice that the way I
move through it and my relationshipto the system is what is going to
give me freedom and liberation of it.
(39:18):
I like that lesson a lot.
The way you move through it is moreimportant than the And output results.
So as also a part of somebody who'sgetting back, posting your stuff online
and your content, and I think it'salso relevant to the conversation of
(39:42):
capitalism to where We have TikTok shop,Instagram shop, and all these social
medias have commerce directly integratedwithin, you know, how have you been
navigating broadly the media landscape,especially as you're starting to get
into publishing your content, right?
How has that been like, navigatingit, and how have you been able to keep
(40:07):
your sanity and your consciousness?
present alongside yourwork while you navigate it?
Yeah, I think I was really overwhelmed bythe divisive discourse that happened at
the end of last year after 10 7 and thenseeing how much atrocities continue to
(40:34):
happen in Gaza and how it continues to.
be such a brutal force of violenceand a re expression of trauma
in so many different ways.
And I think, you know, in terms ofsocial activism, you know, on a platform,
(41:01):
it's become sort of culture to bereactive and speak out immediately.
And I understand that.
And I respect that.
And I also.
Don't move through the work that way.
And I think that there's not a lotof space for a different way of
(41:22):
being, which to me feels oppressive.
So I really, you know, had totake a step back and be like,
why am I on these platforms?
To begin with, it wasreally an invitation, right?
Of how do I want to connectwith folks and how will my.
what I hope to do and sharewith the world, where will it
(41:46):
best be of, of, of service.
And so I really took abig break from social.
I'm still off of it.
I think one of the ways that I reconcile,again, that relationship between the
oppressive systems we live in and havingto have one foot in and one foot out is
(42:09):
that I hired someone to do my social.
You know, she's an amazing, you know,BIPOC person, and I was just like, okay,
here's the deal, I don't want to engagein this platform, in these platforms that
(42:30):
literally trigger my anxiety, that putme in a different state energetically, is
not good for my mental health for a numberof reasons, but I still have to kind of
play within the game a little bit, right?
Unfortunately.
And so that time away, I was like, well,what if I just had someone else do it?
(42:52):
And, and I have that resource.
I have that privilege.
I totally recognize that.
And it's been, like, revelatory.
Like, I don't miss it at all.
I deleted it from my phone.
My fucking carpal tunnel in myright arm stopped because I was,
like, so used to swiping, right?
(43:14):
Like, it's, like, amazing when youstart seeing, like, whoa, like, these
habits, this habit energy of, like, thatyou're not even conscious or aware of.
Yeah, that's a really good expression of,like, Working within the confines of the
systems, but still me, myself, findingways that I could be free and, and finding
(43:40):
ways that I, that it won't take away fromthe quality of life that I want to live.
Deeply resonate with that too.
Social has just been so, socialhas really changed in a way that
I don't think has really upliftedalternative perspectives, uplifted
(44:03):
diverse thought, ways of thinking.
It's just really turned intolike a typical media channel.
You know, one time, Blue Moon ago, I had,uh, uh, uh, interviewed for BuzzFeed.
Like, this was in themid, like, early 2010s.
During their high, I interviewed withthem, and in their offices, they had TVs
(44:23):
that basically had a real time tickerof everyone's articles that were Uh,
going viral, who was getting the mostnumber of hits every 24 hours in a 7
day cycle, and they were just competing.
Who would be able to create the contentthat would get onto the TV, and then
people would be rewarded in doing so.
And social media, with everyone trying sohard to become an influencer these days.
(44:48):
To get content, to get seed, everyoneis racing for whatever has the
buzziest, uh, most relevant content.
And then also in the newscycle, right, you have this
adage, if it bleeds, it leads.
And how violence, how pain, how allthese things are perpetuated solely for
(45:11):
the sake of monetization, for attention.
And so, I think what you'vebeen doing is starting to head
towards a more balanced place.
I commend you for it.
And yeah, I wonder if you haveany tips for folks who might
be feeling a very similar way.
Other guests I brought on have alsomentioned very similar things about
(45:34):
the convoluted nature of social media.
I wonder if you, as we start podcast,just any tips on social media
and navigating media landscape?
Yeah, for sure.
And also I pulled up a poem sowe can end with that if you want.
(45:54):
Yes.
Come through Lil Kim.
In terms of tips for being onsocial media and consuming any media
in general, I would just reallyinvite the question of like, why?
(46:15):
You know, like, I, I think, I thinkeven just spending time with that
question of why, why are we on socialso we can be connected to people?
Okay, well, are you reallyconnecting to people in the way
that you want to be connecting?
Does it feel like ameaningful relationship?
(46:35):
Are you reaching the people that you wantto be reaching if that's the case, right?
Or are you just kind of unconsciouslygoing through that sort of habitual
nature of liking somebody'sposts who you barely know, right?
Or ignoring a DM from someonewho you might actually want
(47:00):
to connect with, right?
Like we start building habitson top of other habits.
You know, and again, the question is whydo you want to, is it because it brings
you some levity and some joy in your day?
Amazing.
That's beautiful.
Is that the only thing it's doing?
Is it also inviting violence?
(47:20):
Is it also inviting anxiety?
Is it also inviting divisiveness,right, in your life?
And are there other ways for you toaccess joy and levity that are not?
within a 30 second animal video.
Which can be awesome too, right?
(47:41):
I'm not knocking that.
I'm just asking for folks to zoom out,to both zoom out and to dive deeper
within themselves and see that why.
And if you're feeling a lot ofresistance to, like, letting it
go, Again, why is that , right?
(48:02):
Mm-Hmm.
And really looking at this attachmentand seeing if it's really serving to be
something that maybe you didn't intendfor it to be, and can you actually go
back to that route in tension and look atways that you can actually fill that need?
(48:25):
That you might have that is kindof being filled by social in a
way that might not serve you.
So, and like, more practicallyspeaking, like, just take a
break to see how it feels.
Like, if you thought that was allmumbo jumbo and like Kim is full
of shit, then like, just like gooff of social for like a week.
(48:49):
And see what happens, see what happensto your eyes if they're not as tired,
see what happens to your hand becauseyou're not scrolling as much, see if
you're more present or if you're morefocused, or if you're having withdrawals,
which has also been recorded in a lotof scientific research, like, that says
(49:11):
something, and so, uh, Don't take myword for it, just try it, you know?
Mm hmm, I love that.
And my takeaway from that is alsothere's one part which is the
observation, inquiry, and thenthe other part is reflecting on
how we're reacting to it, right?
(49:31):
Where we can observe.
Maybe we do have this compulsion todig, dig, dig, dig, dig, and to follow.
And then I really love how youpointed, you know, how Are these
really your social connection?
And my reflection to that, just lookingat the last 10 posts I was looking at
on social media, do I even know them?
(49:54):
Are those people even folksthat I would want to consider
as a part of my social circle?
I thought that was veryinteresting insight.
Are you ready for your poem, primetime?
I mean, are you ready for my poem?
I'm ready.
Heh, heh, heh.
Lay it on me.
(50:14):
So I'm not gonna hedge it becauseI've, you know, uh, have been lovingly
encouraged not to hedge anything.
But, uh, I will give some backgroundthat this is a poem I wrote a long
time ago, like maybe a little over 10years ago, and I actually wrote it on
(50:36):
a retreat the last day of a retreat.
Um, the teacher, um, invited us towrite a note, a letter to ourselves.
And then she kind of, and then we allput it in a basket and then she mailed
it to us like randomly months later.
And so it's such a beautiful sortof invitation of like dropping you
(50:57):
back in that space of where youwere after the end of a retreat.
This is a poem called A Note to Myself.
Don't forget you are beautiful and strong.
Take stock in that.
It is magical.
The road ahead will be brightand sometimes treacherous.
(51:19):
But you will, you are, forging ahead.
You are rising out of the sun.
Being born out of the light, that is you.
Oh, sweet.
Thanks.
Also, the first time Kim has readme a poem, so this is unprecedented.
(51:41):
You saw it here first, yellow glitter.
Listened to it here first.
Yeah.
That was beautiful.
Ten years ago.
I was trying to find one that's,like, not They got to be really
intense, so it was like, what, what.
Oh, that was fine.
I know, but, you know, that's a good, thatwas a one that I, that's still, I haven't
(52:05):
read that one actually in a really longtime, so it's nice to revisit it too.
Yeah.
And.
A note to myself, butalso a note to everybody.
Two questions.
One, how can people find you?
Yeah, so I think the best wayto connect with me these days is
(52:25):
to go subscribe to my Substack.
Um, all levels of support arewelcome and you can go to kimtai.
substack.
com and get my weekly mindfulnessnewsletter and, you know, be a part
of my reading community that way.
That's the best way.
And question two, what isbringing you joy lately?
(52:46):
Spaciousness for like everyday living.
Like, you know, yesterday my wifeand I stayed up a little bit too late
playing this board game, Raccoon Tycoon.
It was so funny.
(53:07):
The cards are so adorable.
They're like fancy catsand dogs and stuff.
It's also just like capitalismin a box, but whatever.
Like I said, we're all learning and youknow, and we're starting to plant our
seeds for our garden coming up and I justthink like, you know, parting, me stepping
(53:29):
back and also moving out of the city,which has been a big update, has been Just
kind of giving more space to things thatbring me peace and joy and not letting my
schedule be overfilled all the time withwork because that's the easy thing to do.
And as we wrap up, if youenjoyed this episode, please
(53:54):
leave us a rating and review.
This is how folks find us on thedifferent podcast platforms that you love.
If you want to follow us, we areon social at yellowglitterpodpd.
Feel free to give us your thoughts, yourideas, and also if you want to reach
out to us, you can find us online on ourwebsite for also full episode transcript
(54:18):
and show notes at yellowglitterpodcast.
com.
Well Kim, it's beenlovely having you back.
Thank you for sharing youradventures, shifts, and your moves.
into this new type of space foryourself and your organization.
I really appreciate it.
(54:39):
Your thoughts here today.
No, thank you always, Steven,for having me and for starting
and continuing this podcast.
I think it's so important, all theconversations you have, and I just
have so much love and respect for you.
And yeah, I can't wait to, tohear this more this season.
Thank you.
(54:59):
And with that, our space is now closed.
Thank you, listeners.
We'll see you again next time.
Bye, everyone.
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The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.