August 6, 2024 • 36 mins
Is being unclean the same as being sinful? From the perspective of many in the Bible, yes, it was. So, when Jesus has an encounter with a man with leprosy, the people's understanding is about to be shaken up, as all they knew about being unclean and leprosy is going to go out the window. Join Your Church Friends as they closely examine the difference between being unclean and being sinful, and how knowing the difference is an essential component in discovering a Savior.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Muireadhach (00:04):
On a mission, on a quest,
on a search, or discovering the truth.
Join us on our journey to
discovering a savior.
>> Chris (00:18):
All right, welcome to your church friends podcast. I'm Chris.
>> Muireadhach (00:20):
I'm Muireadhach
>> Chris (00:21):
And we are recording midday hours
as we normally do. Well, more. It's like noon
when we normally record, but, you know, it's not after hours.
It's, you know, middle of the day hours.
Just throwing it out there just in case we're not on the same,
like, levels of, like, an after hours episode or
a noon
(00:43):
recording.
>> Muireadhach (00:45):
You're like, you know what? This is some weird. They recorded 3
hours after they normally would.
>> Chris (00:49):
Uh, that does a lot to me, though.
>> Muireadhach (00:51):
Yeah, you're weird.
>> Chris (00:52):
Yeah. Time, like, if I in between that
noontime normal start to like
04:00. Like, sometimes I need a nap,
so it's a lot different.
>> Muireadhach (01:02):
I took a nap.
>> Chris (01:03):
Did you?
>> Muireadhach (01:03):
I was on that chair when I was
leaving to go get, uh, Casey.
Sociology. Did you catch me taking a nap in the office?
And she just laughed and she was like, no. I was like, oh, well,
I've been at work for too long, so it's like a 20
minutes.
Yeah.
>> Chris (01:21):
So hopefully it'll be a good one, but I feel like it will. I
kind of want to just jump into this episode.
>> Muireadhach (01:27):
Good. Every single time I'm sitting. Like, what kind of
weird thing you're gonna do in the beginning?
>> Chris (01:31):
Question am I gonna ask?
>> Muireadhach (01:32):
Yeah, I'm glad that you stopped asking me about movies.
>> Chris (01:35):
Yeah. I feel it's. You're
a lot like Justine, where I'm like, hey, have you seen this movie? She's like, no. And
I'm like, oh, my gosh. Why? Why am m. I supposedly.
>> Muireadhach (01:43):
Yes, I've seen that movie.
>> Chris (01:45):
Do you remember? That movie's not.
>> Muireadhach (01:46):
Doesn't allow me to partake in this conversation.
My media references need to flow naturally on
whatever it is that my brain came up with.
>> Chris (01:54):
Yeah, that's what I've learned. So that's how we work
better on that.
>> Muireadhach (01:57):
So it just lets you talk for an hour
on whatever series.
>> Chris (02:01):
You're the current movie series. No, I
can't. What did I finish? Mission Impossible. So, yeah.
Still trying to figure out what's next for me.
Let's get into this. Cause I feel like this is a pretty big
question. I kind of feel like it's a question that,
like, I think even christians
today, we still struggle with it. It's basically, we're gonna look
at it as being unclean, the same as sinful.
(02:24):
And really, where I see it, where it
relates with today is how sometimes as
christians, it's the like. But
I'm saved. I got baptized. Why am I
still sinning type thing?
>> Muireadhach (02:38):
Because you're unclean. So, you filthy sinner.
>> Chris (02:40):
Yeah, filthy pagan.
>> Muireadhach (02:42):
Go read, James. Wash your hands.
Oh, wait. That was the COVID verse, huh? Yeah. Yeah.
>> Chris (02:48):
So I kind of figure it's still a, uh,
pertinent question. So do you want to read the passage, or do you want me
to?
>> Muireadhach (02:54):
I'll, uh, read it. While Jesus was in one of
the towns, a man came along who was covered
with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell
face down and begged him to lord, if
you're willing, you can make me clean. Jesus
reached out his hand and touched the man. I am
willing, he said, be clean. And
immediately, the leprosy left him.
(03:17):
Do not tell anyone, Jesus instructed him, but go
show yourself to the priest and present the offering Moses
prescribed for your cleansing as a testimony to
them. But the news about Jesus spread all the
more, and the great crowds came to hear him and to be healed
of their sicknesses. Yet he frequently
withdrew to the wilderness to pray.
>> Chris (03:37):
Leprosy. It's always a fun
conversation.
>> Muireadhach (03:40):
Yeah.
>> Chris (03:40):
Talking about leprosy, um, there's a
few things, actually, when I looked into it that I was like, I didn't really actually know
this about leprosy or how they defined leprosy or what it looked
like in the Bible.
>> Muireadhach (03:51):
Okay, so I'm wondering what you're gonna come up with this,
because as I was looking at stuff, there's
a broad range of kind of how people are interpreting
this thing of leprosy.
>> Chris (04:01):
Right? Yeah, there is. It's like the. Like, any skin
disease or. Or something like that to, like,
what we now know as Hansen's
disease. Like, there's to that. So it's
like, yeah, when I was.
>> Muireadhach (04:13):
A kid hearing about leprosy, it was all the walking dead.
>> Chris (04:17):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (04:19):
What is this disease? Like? It is zombies.
>> Chris (04:21):
It turns you into living zombies. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (04:24):
Like, things are just dying. Like, your fingers are falling off.
Like, your skin is just, like,
getting saggy to the point of just like, oh, look, I
just left some when I stood up, like, yeah.
That's all that I understood it. So then I was studying, and it's just like, oh,
no. Like, it could be like some bad eczema.
>> Chris (04:40):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (04:43):
Sorry. Did you just hear that little kid in your head too?
>> Chris (04:46):
Which one?
>> Muireadhach (04:47):
That little kid is like, you got eggs?
You know what video I'm talking about? I was on the do later. Yeah.
>> Chris (04:54):
Send it to me. Later. No, I didn't hear that. I was just thinking of one of
those, um, uh, like, those
commercials for that, like, a weird name disease or something,
like, to help with your eczema thing.
Side effects may be da da da da da da, and
hair loss.
>> Muireadhach (05:09):
And from what I hear, dealing with severe eczema isn't
fun, but at least it's not, like, leprosy,
like Hansen's disease or what you're calling it.
>> Chris (05:17):
Yeah. And so that was kind of
more of the. It's weird. I'm on the flip side. Growing
up, I kind of was told that, like,
well, leprosy in the Bible wasn't what we
consider this or that. You know, some people, it was just, like,
rashes, skin diseases, you
know, and because it was different, um,
(05:38):
that's what people considered as leprosy. Ah.
So there's, like, all different types of
leprosy or skin diseases that cover, like, the
gauntlet of all of them.
>> Muireadhach (05:47):
Oh, yeah. So you were taught the biblical thing.
>> Chris (05:49):
Yeah, yeah. But when I was looking at this one and kind of
looking more into, like, the walking dead one, I was like, oh,
man, this is, like, kind of crazy because, like, yeah, like we talked about, it's
basically a skin condition that causes the
skin to die. Like, your skin is basically
dying, and it starts, like. Like, at the
fingertips, the nose and stuff like that. And it starts as it
spreads.
>> Muireadhach (06:09):
So that's what I heard of just, like, people's noses falling off.
>> Chris (06:12):
Yeah, yeah. Just like, randomly just plop down or, like, the ears
falling off. Uh, and they.
>> Muireadhach (06:18):
My brain right now with stuff is just like. You
gave that warning, you see, misses
doubtfire.
>> Chris (06:24):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (06:25):
When she's got the cream and is, like, falling off of her face. Yeah. I'm just picturing,
like, a nose. She's like, bloop, bloop. Right off one nose or two.
>> Chris (06:32):
But it has a snow. Like, it was, like, a white marks.
It's kind of like the start of it. Um, the other thing I
read, and this was interesting to me was that it
attacks the nerves. So, like, the person
can't even feel it at that point, like,
which, thankfully. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (06:48):
Cause any skin stuff like that and all that. Like that.
Mm hmm. That sucks.
>> Chris (06:53):
So, yeah, if it's just, like, rotting.
>> Muireadhach (06:55):
Away, not that you want to be losing feeling
as well, but I feel like I would rather lose the
feeling in that situation.
>> Chris (07:02):
Right, right.
>> Muireadhach (07:03):
Sorry. Can I just show you this?
>> Chris (07:04):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (07:12):
What you got? Eczema.
>> Chris (07:14):
Eczema? I thought it was eczema.
>> Muireadhach (07:16):
He's like, why you got these bums. You got eggs.
I love that kid.
>> Chris (07:21):
Yeah, it's great. Kids are great when it comes to stuff like
that.
Yeah. Uh, yesterday. Totally off topic.
Yesterday. Uh, so we're doing our
summer program with the kids here, and reid came home. He's brought his friend
from school to it, and we're driving to
take him home. And when we get
home, reid says to justine, he's like, mom, elijah has a question
(07:42):
for you. And I thought it was gonna be something like, can I spend the night?
Which I was gonna immediately be like, no. You know,
like, because I just want a kid spending the
night tonight. Um, but he said, uh,
does Reid really have $3,000?
He was like, I told him. And justine was like, well,
(08:03):
yes, technically, but it's in his bank. You know, we set up a bank
account for him, so we're saving money so that he'll have it for
when he graduates. And Rito's like, see, I told
you. And elisha, his friend was like,
oh, man, now we gotta tell all the other boys. And I'm like,
no, stop telling people how much money you have.
Rebbe was there, too. She's like, reeve, you don't tell people how much
(08:24):
money you have. But kids, they just.
They don't care.
Anyways, back to the program. Yeah, uh, sorry.
>> Muireadhach (08:31):
I'm just throwing it off left and right.
>> Chris (08:33):
The infection sets in, and it leads to, uh, degeneration
of tissues. Uh, not to be graphic, but, you
know, it's rotting, it's falling off. The limbs are
gangrenous, and, you know, the fingers and toes, they just start
coming off. So, uh, basically it spreads until
the person can't take care of themselves anymore and they die. So this
is, you know, what we're talking about.
Leprosy in the sense of the
(08:55):
Hansen's disease comparison. Not so much the
eczema, but, like, in mark one.
>> Muireadhach (09:01):
So we were just reading that out of Luke, chapter five.
But in mark one, Jesus also comes across,
you know, with leprosy. And there's various other stories
of him coming across people with leprosy. Are you
saying that everything is all this
gangrenous? Are you saying.
>> Chris (09:17):
No, this story.
>> Muireadhach (09:19):
This story.
>> Chris (09:20):
This story is that. And I'll get to it in a little
bit because I feel like there's, like, Luke gives a little.
A little hint, a little different to, uh,
it. But, uh, the real thing. That's crazy.
And this I didn't know is that today we still. Still don't
have a cure for it. Like, there's treatments.
>> Muireadhach (09:38):
Yeah, there's treatments, but no cure.
>> Chris (09:39):
No cure. So first century, there's
no cure, there's no hope. You are literally, like you said, zombies.
Like, you are the walking dead. Like, it's literally death.
Um, so then we get into like these. Why
we're looking at is unclean the same as
sin? Because then there's the,
um, levitical laws, right? They didn't want this
to pass from people to people because they didn't really know
(10:01):
how people were catching this. So
anyone with leprosy was thrown outside of the cities.
>> Muireadhach (10:07):
Is that why?
>> Chris (10:09):
I believe so. What do you have?
>> Muireadhach (10:12):
Well, we're looking at this thing of unclean,
right? I think that wrapping into, like, why would
we even equate unclean
with sinful? Mhm. Right. So it's just like, that's
what we're tracking on. You just said, well, these people are unclean.
They're put outside of the camp. Right. They're on
the outside, but the
purpose for that happening, because there's other things that are
(10:35):
unclean as well that you need to go through various
rituals. Maybe some of it is like, yeah, you're also outside of the
camp for some amount of time. Or is like, hey, you need
to go through these various washings in
order to present yourself clean. Or as Jesus was just
directing this person, hey, go and give the offering that's directed
from Moses as a testimony this has
(10:55):
happened. So there's these things, but it's all about, like, can
you come to the temple?
>> Chris (11:00):
Right?
>> Muireadhach (11:01):
Like, there's the temple as the
epicenter, but then, like, as it comes out, there's like,
the camp or the city, right. And just like, are you allowed in
what proximity to God can
you have?
>> Chris (11:12):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (11:12):
Based on your cleanliness, ritual
cleanliness is what. What it's looking at. So I think that's where it comes
in as far as. Was it sin? Because just like,
you're saying that I can't come to the temple.
>> Chris (11:22):
Mm hmm.
>> Muireadhach (11:23):
So I'm like, outside of being able to
come into God's presence, and we're tying in this thing of
like, having some form of offering
in some situations that are needed, like
generally for modern
christians, for the most part, we look at, oh, an offering. So,
like, sin happened. So you need to give an offering to like,
(11:44):
make up for that, right? M so I think, yeah. All the
confusion coming in with that, um.
Um. To circle back around
to leprosy, is it because it was
contagious that they were put outside? It's
like, from what I can see,
maybe. Yes. But also more reasons than
that, going back to. And I
(12:06):
don't know if now is the time that you want to just jump into, like, that
whole thing of being in God's presence and why these things being unclean.
>> Chris (12:11):
Oh, yeah.
>> Muireadhach (12:12):
Why they weren't allowed.
>> Chris (12:13):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (12:14):
So you brought up Leviticus. Mm hmm. And it's
like. So this is Leviticus. What eleven
through 15 is dealing with, uh,
things that are unclean?
>> Chris (12:24):
Uh, yes.
>> Muireadhach (12:26):
I want to say you got eleven through 15 is things that's unclean.
You have 16 is the day of atonement. Then you have
17 through 19 is things
that are common.
>> Chris (12:36):
I think 17 has, uh, the as
is ale part.
>> Muireadhach (12:40):
Oh, still the day of a domain.
>> Chris (12:41):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (12:41):
And then. So 718.
>> Chris (12:43):
And then Leviticus 13 is our favorite chapter on, uh,
skin diseases.
>> Muireadhach (12:47):
Mhm. So, yeah, but you're looking at that, and it's
all kind of attached. But what's interesting when I was
looking at it is if you have
Leviticus ten and Leviticus 16
seems to be telling a story, and then you have
eleven through 15 are kind of, like, put
in there.
>> Chris (13:05):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (13:05):
So ten, you're looking at a
nahab and abayu.
>> Chris (13:10):
Oh, the two sons.
>> Muireadhach (13:11):
Yeah, the two sons. Who.
>> Chris (13:13):
They go, Aaron's two sons. Just to clarify for everyone listening,
did.
>> Muireadhach (13:16):
I say the names right? I don't have notes in front of me. I'm just going off of, like, memory
on this. Um, but they go and they
offer what the Bible terms as strange
fire, and the fire
consumes them. So they're going. And they're going
out with the way that they should be approaching God. They're
offering up the strange fire with that, and then they are
(13:36):
consumed. So you have these two sons of
the priests that are coming, and this situation
happens, and then the story just kind of
goes, all right, let's talk about all this unclean stuff, like, what
is clean, what is unclean? But then you get
to Leviticus 16, and it starts back up
again. So those two suns that were consumed by the fire, and it's
just like. It's a weird interjection into
(13:59):
Leviticus that's looking at what is
clean, what is unclean. And I think that that
really ties it in. When you look at Nahab
and Abihu, were coming to
present something to God, and they did it
incorrectly. And then you get this whole section
on kind of coming into God's presence and
what's allowed and what's not allowed, and how do you keep yourself
(14:21):
clean to be able to do that? Or if you become unclean.
How do you go through the process of, like, becoming ritually,
ceremonially clean again to come into God's
presence? So that being said, I think
that just that concept of they
did it incorrectly and they were
consumed is showing
(14:42):
more the thought of what this is. It's less to do with, like, oh, well,
it's a sinful thing. It's more. You're
coming into the presence of God. And
there's something about, like, how humans need
to do that otherwise, m. You get
consumed in some. What's his name? That when they were carrying the
ark and he. Oh, uh,
(15:02):
Uziah. Yes, I think it's
Uzia. Right.
>> Chris (15:05):
Yeah, I knew it starts. It starts with the you. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (15:08):
So again, same thing. They were told, like, hey, you shouldn't touch this.
They even had, like, that's why they were supposed to be carrying on the
poles, but they had it on a cart, and it was about to fall off of the cart, and then he
reached out to stabilize it and he just gets dropped dead. Because,
like, God is this
holy power.
>> Chris (15:24):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (15:25):
And if you're coming into or touching or
interacting with that incorrectly, then it's
dangerous.
>> Chris (15:31):
Yes. Yeah. I think that's probably the
best way to phrase it. That, like, it's
dangerous on how you come
to God if it's incorrect.
>> Muireadhach (15:40):
Yeah. So it's more like, oh, the cleanliness is more to do with
safety.
>> Chris (15:44):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (15:46):
Is how I would see that.
>> Chris (15:47):
Yeah. And for me, when I was looking at it, did, there was like a,
you know, it was a kind of a two
fold thing where, like, okay, we needed to get
this out of the community before it
spreads, because then the rest of us can't be in the
presence of God. So how do we
prevent something from infecting the community? That's,
(16:08):
uh, why there's, like, the, I mean, you talked about it,
the clean laws. So ceremony
ceremonially unclean. And then the
difference between morally unclean, like, the actions that
are way worse than, you know, it's like murder,
rape.
>> Muireadhach (16:22):
Death, which even there, when I was looking at it, because, uh, the
question that we're looking at is, is unclean the same as sinful.
>> Chris (16:28):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (16:28):
And it seemed like not all sin would
result in ceremonial
uncleanliness.
>> Chris (16:34):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (16:35):
It seemed like mostly it would be sexual immorality
and idolatry. Mhm. Pay you into
that. But, like, other stuff could be going on
and you could still kind of go to the temple without
performing these ritualistic things.
>> Chris (16:49):
Right. But it was really the, for me, looking at it, the
idea is like, okay, so we need to get this out of the community
because then it affects the whole community and
it's, you know, like, getting it so that there's
prevention of all of this, like, the spreading of
it.
>> Muireadhach (17:03):
Right.
>> Chris (17:04):
Whether it's, you know, the,
uh, worshipping a false idol or, you know, a
leprosy, it was just like, this needs. This is unclean.
And they were there for a purpose.
>> Muireadhach (17:14):
Of when you were looking into it. Because some of what I was
seeing is that maybe, uh,
it's not as contagious as,
again, my Sunday school.
>> Chris (17:25):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (17:25):
Understanding was just like, oh, no, super contagious. So they just couldn't be
around people. And like, yeah, it is
contagious, but maybe like, not all that.
Like, I don't. I didn't look far enough into the
biology.
>> Chris (17:37):
What I looked into it, it was more of like, they just
didn't know. Right. Like,
honestly, it's crazy looking and
studying into leprosy and like, the parameters that were
put around the people and people who had
leprosy and what they had to do. It really gave me pandemic
flashbacks.
>> Muireadhach (17:54):
Mhm.
>> Chris (17:55):
Of like, what it was to, like, if you were quarantined,
you're quarantined, you're unclean.
>> Muireadhach (18:00):
Hey, you can check in and see, like, if it's
been solved.
>> Chris (18:04):
Yeah. And even people with leprosy, that's what they would do. They would,
uh. Cause they're exiled outside of the community. People, their family
would bring them food and leave it at a place for
them to come and get it. I think of Ben
Hur. Have you seen the old Ben Hur with Charlton
Dustin and his mom and sister end
up getting, uh. As he's going through his
(18:25):
journey of becoming who he is, uh,
they end up getting leprosy. So when he comes back to find them,
uh, they're lepers. And so they,
uh. But the girl who was supposed to, like,
tend to the house was taking them food
still.
>> Muireadhach (18:40):
Mhm.
>> Chris (18:41):
In their cave. And that's another area where, like, they would live outside of camps
and caves and cities and stuff like that. Outside of the cities.
Uh, but, you know, it was like, a lot of it was to remove themselves.
So that way they're not there because
they just didn't know, like, how do people get this? How are
people getting it from one thing? And that was a lot of, again,
what the pandemic at the beginning was, was like, how are we
(19:01):
getting Covid. How are people catching all this stuff?
So it did give me these weird flashbacks.
>> Muireadhach (19:07):
So that's what I was saying. Like, yes, I think that that's part
of it. Which seems like you looked more into
some of the medical stuff. Like, yeah, yes. And they also didn't
know. So all that included. But I do think that the thing
of, because what they would eat, what other things could
make you unclean? Ceremonially?
>> Chris (19:24):
Ah, ceremonially, uh, bodily discharges.
>> Muireadhach (19:28):
Um, so men and women
discharges.
>> Chris (19:32):
Yes, yes. Fluid.
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (19:35):
Infer what that is. If that doesn't make sense, it's not
after.
>> Chris (19:39):
I'm not going there.
>> Muireadhach (19:39):
You can ask your mom or dad. Right?
>> Chris (19:42):
Imagine that, like 50 years old going to ask your
eight year old dad, what's bodily
fluids?
>> Muireadhach (19:49):
These guys are really bad at describing things on the podcast. I just don't know
what they're talking about.
>> Chris (19:53):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (19:53):
Um, um. Oh, uh, but yeah, that for men.
>> Chris (19:56):
And women, touching a dead body.
>> Muireadhach (19:57):
Touching a dead body.
>> Chris (19:58):
Touching a dead body is another one. Um, menstruating for a
woman would be on, on that list too.
>> Muireadhach (20:04):
That's a bodily fluid.
>> Chris (20:05):
Yeah, yeah. But different from the other bodily
fluid.
>> Muireadhach (20:08):
Childbirth.
>> Chris (20:09):
Childbirth, yeah. So there's like just these random
things of like, they weren't necessarily bad
things that would make you unclean.
>> Muireadhach (20:17):
So going to the menstruating thing, did women have to go outside of the
camp?
>> Chris (20:20):
I believe so, yes, I believe so. Right?
>> Muireadhach (20:22):
Yeah. And yeah, I was kind of joking with you. It's just like, yeah,
oh, yeah, once a month, all the guys were just like, yo, we're having a
week long barbecue. Like, all the women are out of the
camp. Yeah, yeah, we're having a beast feast.
>> Chris (20:32):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (20:33):
Which is then looking at the beast fees. Other things that were unclean, looking at
stuff would be even animals. So that's where you get the,
um, dietary laws, right? There's
like, hey, these animals are okay or clean,
and these ones are unclean.
>> Chris (20:46):
So you got like owls and other
birds that are unclean.
>> Muireadhach (20:51):
Mhm.
>> Chris (20:51):
And then you have like the birds that you can eat. And it's the
same thing with the animals. Like hooved animals, I think it is. Right.
That are the hood ones unclean because
it's like the camel pigs
that have like the split.
>> Muireadhach (21:04):
Yeah. If it's split, you can't do that.
>> Chris (21:06):
Yeah, yeah. So those were animals you couldn't
eat.
>> Muireadhach (21:09):
Did you dive into any of the food stuff? I know that we're looking
at leprosy.
>> Chris (21:13):
No, no. A lot of this
part is just me going off of memory of super.
>> Muireadhach (21:19):
Interesting on like, well, why were those things
unclean?
And it ties into this whole thing again. So this thing
of, like, safety and coming into God's presence was like, why
would it not be safe if you've had bodily
discharges or you've touched a corpse or any of these things have
happened? And it really has to do with
God being, like, the holy God that he
(21:39):
is. I want to say that throughout that section on Leviticus, it just
keeps repeating, because I'm Yahweh. Yeah, like, you're doing
this because I'm Yahweh. You're doing this because I'm Yahweh. Like, he is the
holy, set apart God above all
gods, right? And in approaching him,
his complete holiness, and
also just getting that life,
(22:00):
like, the ultimate life force that he is.
Right. That I still
don't know how to describe that. I'm just like, he's pure life, but yet that
can be, like, dangerous and kill you, you know what I mean?
When handled incorrectly. Like, just the power that's
there. Um, but that when you're looking
at scripturally, the
(22:21):
power of life is in the blood.
So, like, if menstruating or childbirth
or things of that nature, like, blood is going out, so it's like your
life force has gone out of you. You are not whole. Whole
and complete coming into contact with a corpse.
You come into contact with something dead, so
you are not clean to come into the presence of a
(22:41):
holy God with his all powerful life.
>> Chris (22:44):
Um, Mildew was another one.
>> Muireadhach (22:46):
Yeah, mildew. So even, like, okay, so why
Mildew and why these animals? Like, why are these animals
unclean? What's going on? And through studying it, there's really
interesting things that it does come down to,
almost like, what aligns
with life and what aligns
with a natural,
(23:06):
good order of things versus what's aligning
with death and kind of more chaos
with stuff. And, um,
so that's where fish, like, what fish are? Okay, so it's like, well,
fish that have scales, you can eat those, but other fish that don't
have scales is just like, the way that they are,
are within their sphere of m. Like, well, there's,
(23:27):
um, what we call, like, shellfish.
>> Chris (23:29):
Mhm.
>> Muireadhach (23:29):
It's just like, that's not natural for, like, a
water environment.
>> Chris (23:33):
Right?
>> Muireadhach (23:33):
Like, fish are supposed to swim. You're not doing the swimming
thing. So you're not having the full picture of what it means to be
a water creature. Even when you get to, like, some of the
birds, there's, like, birds that are just straight up, like, flying
birds. Sure. But the birds that, like, dive into the
water or swim and have that. It's kind of like, yeah, maybe not so much.
Cause, like, you're in the air, but then onto the other side
(23:53):
of things. But these birds also eat carrions, so
they're going and touching dead, and they're eating the
dead in that manner. So it's like, you also can't do those.
>> Chris (24:01):
Yeah, like a vulture or buzzard.
>> Muireadhach (24:03):
Yeah, exactly. And then when it comes to other animals of, like,
how well do they respect, like, even the order that
man is creating versus, like, some of those would be invasive to
come in and just, like, start destroying things down or, like,
so again, kind of that chaos is things that you
can see are aligning with order and good. Like, what is man
establishing? And how well do things function within that? So, like, wild
(24:23):
boars come in, would, like, tear things out, whereas then even looking
at mildew or different things of that nature, of just, like, things
that are destroying, like, a house
that men have built, like, I don't
know, it's really interesting. There's a lot of
different, um, opinions and studies
into it, but this was kind of the most complete thing that.
>> Chris (24:43):
I could find that actually makes
the animals, like, the birds
eating other animals, like, because they're touching a dead
body, like, even a hawk or a falcon, that's like, eating
other flesh. So they're unclean
because they've touched dead flesh.
And if a, uh, person touches dead flesh, they're unclean.
So why. Yeah, that actually does make a lot more sense.
(25:06):
Okay. When you start thinking about which animals are allowed to eat
and which ones weren't part of that whole scheme of things.
>> Muireadhach (25:11):
Yeah. I want to say, like, a huge name within the study is
a milgram. Uh, I think it's
milgromm. And then other people building
on top of it, I want to say is, I think it's all last names.
So it'd be like, Carol and Douglas kind of.
Anyone listening to look those up, those are the ones who I think it
was. Douglas kind of pushed it the farthest with a lot of that
(25:32):
tie in that I was having. So, anyways, looking at all that,
things being unclean are things that are
related to death, are related to lacking
in order, are more on the side of chaos. So when
you're looking at those things being lacking,
coming into the presence of a perfect and holy God
is a.
>> Chris (25:51):
Dangerous thing, which, uh, another
part of it is the restoration.
>> Muireadhach (25:56):
Yes.
>> Chris (25:57):
You know, it's not just like, you go outside
and you're, like, washing off whatever was on you
or it's giving time for it to like leave your
body, but it's more about like restoring you
to come back into the community, to come back
into the presence of God. Which is why this leprosy
is, is different and why I think it was viewed
(26:17):
different by a lot of people there because there was no
restoration coming from this. You know, they were, they were
kicked out, they were banished. They were like exiled, removed from their
families. They are removed from community. So not
only is this a miserable disease because your
appendages are falling off, but like
mentally and emotionally, you're also miserable. You're,
you know, you're living in suffering. I read this, I thought it was
(26:39):
interesting. I got this, uh, from David
Guzick's commentary. And he said
doctor ab Macdonald, who was in charge of leper,
a leper colony in uto utu,
maybe, uh, the leper is sick. He said this. The leper
is sick in the mind as well as the body. For some reason, there's
an attitude to leprosy, different from the attitude to any
(26:59):
other disfiguring disease. It is associated
with shame and horror and carries in some
mysterious ways a sense of guilt. Shunned
and despised. Frequently, do lepers consider taking their own
lives? And some do.
>> Muireadhach (27:12):
Mhm.
>> Chris (27:13):
So like this. And you know, there's so
many rules with this, right? It was like the, if you
see someone and you're a leper, you're like unclean. You know, you have
to holler it out so they know not to come near you. So that
then, which I want to.
>> Muireadhach (27:25):
Say, that's another story where there was like twelve lepers where they all
kind of off in the distance shouting unclean. And Jesus has
interactions with them as well.
>> Chris (27:32):
Yeah, I don't know if we'll cross that in Luke.
>> Muireadhach (27:34):
I want to say that's in Matthew.
>> Chris (27:35):
But, yeah, then I know it's in one of them. So again, just to emphasize they're
ostracized from society and they're not allowed to reenter
it. Um, to me, this is why this one's
looked at, like, different than that and why we're looking
at sin and unclean. Like, what's the difference?
Because they, the Israelites believed
leprosy was a punishment from God. You have,
uh, King Uzziah in two
(27:57):
chronicles who was like, did really good. And then as he
got older, became prideful and like God was
like struck down with leprosy. And he lived out the rest of his
life isolated and alone as a
king, uh, with leprosy. So you
know, that's a punishment within it.
>> Muireadhach (28:14):
Yeah. And it's really interesting as things get built up.
And again, it, I can
see how it could happen just if you're looking culturally
at stuff to where when you're having these views again of like coming
into the presence of God and then you can't. And then it's just like, well, if
you can't come to the temple and you're
sinning, like when it actually comes to sin and stuff, like, how
(28:35):
is all of that functioning? And then even if you're looking
at, well, like,
yeah, well, how come you have this death disease on
you? Like, how come death is creeping in on you
early?
>> Chris (28:46):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (28:46):
And you see that throughout Jesus life, even when it comes to blindness.
Right. Um, that dude that was born blind and Jesus
goes in. Yeah. Who sinned? This guy or his parents? And he's
like, that's not anything to do with what this
is.
>> Chris (28:58):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (28:59):
So, yeah. When you look at kind of the.
>> Chris (29:01):
Perspective of the cultural people who were.
>> Muireadhach (29:04):
Suffering from ailments, is that it was looked at as a
punishment.
>> Chris (29:07):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (29:08):
Like somewhere in your lineage someone
screwed up. And this is what you get even today.
>> Chris (29:13):
Like the comparison to leprosy in it. Like,
um, I read ha. Ironsides, uh,
commentary. And his was like,
basically he says this, uh, isn't it just like sin? And yet
so often it seems to be such a little thing to begin
with, some habit which one knows is not right,
so insignificant. And it grows and grows
until, uh, at last sin is manifested
(29:36):
in all its terrible corruption. A little sin
leads to something worse and increases until it's
emphasized in the whole life and spiritually form of
leprosy. So even modern day today,
there is that comparison to like sin and
leprosy based off of like what it does to the body.
>> Muireadhach (29:53):
Yeah.
>> Chris (29:54):
Um, and looking at the culture, like you're talking about the culture,
like the Pharisees back then would have that same idea, you
know, in the first century, uh, if we go back
to, I think it's deuteronomy 28, where
God was like, if you do all these things,
blessings, blessings, blessings. But if you don't, then here's the
curses, sickness, disease will be among us
people. So, you know, they really thought
(30:17):
this way. Even the rabbis would like, they were
despised. Leprosies.
>> Muireadhach (30:21):
Yeah. And you look around at,
especially in pharisees, right? Because they're looking at, we're still
under oppression. So like we're still
under exile, so to speak. And they're looking at these
symptoms. Mhm. Of like what sin and
disobedience looks like. And pharisees were like, hey, we want
to follow God's law so that we can get
(30:42):
out of this to where, like, you know, a lot of times we kind of
crap on pharisees, but it's just like, they're kind of doing what a lot
of, like, christians want to do. Like, guys, can we get back to it? Like, look at the
state of the country. Can we take this thing
seriously? So it's like, I can get where they're coming
from. And even so. Yeah, like, I don't
know. Um, was
(31:02):
Covid a judgment from God, right? There's a lot of people that look at
those types. They're just like, hey, look at how much sin has been,
not only in this country. Like, you know, uh, people still
look at things in those ways.
>> Chris (31:13):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (31:13):
Um, um. But it's such a sad
thing how you were saying even on the. For
modern people who are suffering through this,
the amount of, like, depression or,
you know, taking their own lives and getting to that.
Because, like, isolation,
like, think about it.
You get sent to prison. What's the prison within prison?
>> Chris (31:36):
Isolation.
>> Muireadhach (31:36):
Isolation. Isolation. To lose contact
with people. But then, like, even if you have,
like, a, uh, colony of lepers, which, you know,
that kind of is what happened, though. We're all unclean. Like, we need to
survive together. But there's just something about
being treated less than human.
>> Chris (31:53):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (31:53):
And it's just so horrible.
It's dehumanized. Like, you know, it's just like, such a. For
people made in the image of God to see, like,
how humans can treat other humans, it's like, it's
so screwed up. And what we see here with
Jesus, right.
The man says, lord, if you're
willing, you can make me clean. He's not
(32:16):
doubting. He's not saying, like, I don't know if you could actually make me
clean. He's saying, if you're actually willing.
Like, if you'd actually look at
me and consider doing. I know that you could, but, like, do you even
want to?
>> Chris (32:28):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (32:30):
That's where Jesus says, I am willing. And I think
that's just so beautiful, you know, because the
level of faith is just like, hey, if you're willing, you could do this.
>> Chris (32:38):
Right? Right. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (32:40):
And to show that out of all of the Pharisees and
everything else of just, like, the treatment. And I get why, again,
like, if it's contagious and everything else, like, I can
understand. But that where we see
that on the human side of things, the
reason for all of this uncleanness is, yeah, if it's
contagious or, oh, I've touched a dead
body. The uncleanness always
(33:02):
traveled in one direction. Like,
the dead body has death. I've touched the dead body,
the death came onto me. Like, that's how
uncleanness worked. But when it comes to
Jesus, he touches
the uncleanness. And the thing that was unclean gets
made clean.
>> Chris (33:20):
Right? Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (33:21):
And we see that with leprosy here. So we have
kind of those big three things. We've got like, um,
leprosy, skin diseases. You've got corpses
and you've got, um, bodily discharges. They're kind of the
main three uncleannesses. And what we'll
see again, I'm not sure if it'll be fully, I think we should
cover it through our journey that we're going on of discovering a savior,
(33:42):
but that Jesus comes into contact with all three of those things.
M so I'll just put a couple of them out there. That way
people are like, oh, I gotta wait till episode whatever, when I already forgot,
uh, the woman who's suffering with the issue of blood, that she's been
bleeding for twelve years, she just touches
the hem of Jesus's garment and she's made clean.
She's healed and made clean. Right.
(34:03):
And Jesus, when
he comes into contact with corpses, most
famous would probably be Lazarus, right? Like he was dead, dead.
He was on like day four. And
a dead body, a corpse is made alive again.
>> Chris (34:18):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (34:18):
So this is even that different view of what I was saying, like, the dangerous
side of God and like his complete holiness
and life givingness, is that now you have through
Jesus, he's coming and he's touching these unclean things
and making them clean. Like, it's,
that's for me, when looking at, uh, discovering a savior, like, what is
this? Like, well, if we're going to look at taking the Old Testament
(34:38):
seriously for all of the things that are in Leviticus and like,
why it would get set up that way, then
what we see with Jesus is a willingness
to come in and like, be correcting those things.
>> Chris (34:50):
Right. Right. Let's put a pause on the episode right here
and continue the rest of it next week. I'm Chris.
>> Muireadhach (34:56):
I'm, uh, Muireadhach
>> Chris (34:57):
We are your church friends. Thanks for listening.
On a mission, on a quest,
on a search, or discovering the truth.
Join us on our journey to
discovering a savior.
>> Chris (00:18):
All right, welcome to your church friends podcast. I'm Chris.
>> Muireadhach (00:20):
I'm Muireadhach
>> Chris (00:21):
And we are recording midday hours
as we normally do. Well, more. It's like noon
when we normally record, but, you know, it's not after hours.
It's, you know, middle of the day hours.
Just throwing it out there just in case we're not on the same,
like, levels of, like, an after hours episode or
a noon
(00:43):
recording.
>> Muireadhach (00:45):
You're like, you know what? This is some weird. They recorded 3
hours after they normally would.
>> Chris (00:49):
Uh, that does a lot to me, though.
>> Muireadhach (00:51):
Yeah, you're weird.
>> Chris (00:52):
Yeah. Time, like, if I in between that
noontime normal start to like
04:00. Like, sometimes I need a nap,
so it's a lot different.
>> Muireadhach (01:02):
I took a nap.
>> Chris (01:03):
Did you?
>> Muireadhach (01:03):
I was on that chair when I was
leaving to go get, uh, Casey.
Sociology. Did you catch me taking a nap in the office?
And she just laughed and she was like, no. I was like, oh, well,
I've been at work for too long, so it's like a 20
minutes.
Yeah.
>> Chris (01:21):
So hopefully it'll be a good one, but I feel like it will. I
kind of want to just jump into this episode.
>> Muireadhach (01:27):
Good. Every single time I'm sitting. Like, what kind of
weird thing you're gonna do in the beginning?
>> Chris (01:31):
Question am I gonna ask?
>> Muireadhach (01:32):
Yeah, I'm glad that you stopped asking me about movies.
>> Chris (01:35):
Yeah. I feel it's. You're
a lot like Justine, where I'm like, hey, have you seen this movie? She's like, no. And
I'm like, oh, my gosh. Why? Why am m. I supposedly.
>> Muireadhach (01:43):
Yes, I've seen that movie.
>> Chris (01:45):
Do you remember? That movie's not.
>> Muireadhach (01:46):
Doesn't allow me to partake in this conversation.
My media references need to flow naturally on
whatever it is that my brain came up with.
>> Chris (01:54):
Yeah, that's what I've learned. So that's how we work
better on that.
>> Muireadhach (01:57):
So it just lets you talk for an hour
on whatever series.
>> Chris (02:01):
You're the current movie series. No, I
can't. What did I finish? Mission Impossible. So, yeah.
Still trying to figure out what's next for me.
Let's get into this. Cause I feel like this is a pretty big
question. I kind of feel like it's a question that,
like, I think even christians
today, we still struggle with it. It's basically, we're gonna look
at it as being unclean, the same as sinful.
(02:24):
And really, where I see it, where it
relates with today is how sometimes as
christians, it's the like. But
I'm saved. I got baptized. Why am I
still sinning type thing?
>> Muireadhach (02:38):
Because you're unclean. So, you filthy sinner.
>> Chris (02:40):
Yeah, filthy pagan.
>> Muireadhach (02:42):
Go read, James. Wash your hands.
Oh, wait. That was the COVID verse, huh? Yeah. Yeah.
>> Chris (02:48):
So I kind of figure it's still a, uh,
pertinent question. So do you want to read the passage, or do you want me
to?
>> Muireadhach (02:54):
I'll, uh, read it. While Jesus was in one of
the towns, a man came along who was covered
with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell
face down and begged him to lord, if
you're willing, you can make me clean. Jesus
reached out his hand and touched the man. I am
willing, he said, be clean. And
immediately, the leprosy left him.
(03:17):
Do not tell anyone, Jesus instructed him, but go
show yourself to the priest and present the offering Moses
prescribed for your cleansing as a testimony to
them. But the news about Jesus spread all the
more, and the great crowds came to hear him and to be healed
of their sicknesses. Yet he frequently
withdrew to the wilderness to pray.
>> Chris (03:37):
Leprosy. It's always a fun
conversation.
>> Muireadhach (03:40):
Yeah.
>> Chris (03:40):
Talking about leprosy, um, there's a
few things, actually, when I looked into it that I was like, I didn't really actually know
this about leprosy or how they defined leprosy or what it looked
like in the Bible.
>> Muireadhach (03:51):
Okay, so I'm wondering what you're gonna come up with this,
because as I was looking at stuff, there's
a broad range of kind of how people are interpreting
this thing of leprosy.
>> Chris (04:01):
Right? Yeah, there is. It's like the. Like, any skin
disease or. Or something like that to, like,
what we now know as Hansen's
disease. Like, there's to that. So it's
like, yeah, when I was.
>> Muireadhach (04:13):
A kid hearing about leprosy, it was all the walking dead.
>> Chris (04:17):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (04:19):
What is this disease? Like? It is zombies.
>> Chris (04:21):
It turns you into living zombies. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (04:24):
Like, things are just dying. Like, your fingers are falling off.
Like, your skin is just, like,
getting saggy to the point of just like, oh, look, I
just left some when I stood up, like, yeah.
That's all that I understood it. So then I was studying, and it's just like, oh,
no. Like, it could be like some bad eczema.
>> Chris (04:40):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (04:43):
Sorry. Did you just hear that little kid in your head too?
>> Chris (04:46):
Which one?
>> Muireadhach (04:47):
That little kid is like, you got eggs?
You know what video I'm talking about? I was on the do later. Yeah.
>> Chris (04:54):
Send it to me. Later. No, I didn't hear that. I was just thinking of one of
those, um, uh, like, those
commercials for that, like, a weird name disease or something,
like, to help with your eczema thing.
Side effects may be da da da da da da, and
hair loss.
>> Muireadhach (05:09):
And from what I hear, dealing with severe eczema isn't
fun, but at least it's not, like, leprosy,
like Hansen's disease or what you're calling it.
>> Chris (05:17):
Yeah. And so that was kind of
more of the. It's weird. I'm on the flip side. Growing
up, I kind of was told that, like,
well, leprosy in the Bible wasn't what we
consider this or that. You know, some people, it was just, like,
rashes, skin diseases, you
know, and because it was different, um,
(05:38):
that's what people considered as leprosy. Ah.
So there's, like, all different types of
leprosy or skin diseases that cover, like, the
gauntlet of all of them.
>> Muireadhach (05:47):
Oh, yeah. So you were taught the biblical thing.
>> Chris (05:49):
Yeah, yeah. But when I was looking at this one and kind of
looking more into, like, the walking dead one, I was like, oh,
man, this is, like, kind of crazy because, like, yeah, like we talked about, it's
basically a skin condition that causes the
skin to die. Like, your skin is basically
dying, and it starts, like. Like, at the
fingertips, the nose and stuff like that. And it starts as it
spreads.
>> Muireadhach (06:09):
So that's what I heard of just, like, people's noses falling off.
>> Chris (06:12):
Yeah, yeah. Just like, randomly just plop down or, like, the ears
falling off. Uh, and they.
>> Muireadhach (06:18):
My brain right now with stuff is just like. You
gave that warning, you see, misses
doubtfire.
>> Chris (06:24):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (06:25):
When she's got the cream and is, like, falling off of her face. Yeah. I'm just picturing,
like, a nose. She's like, bloop, bloop. Right off one nose or two.
>> Chris (06:32):
But it has a snow. Like, it was, like, a white marks.
It's kind of like the start of it. Um, the other thing I
read, and this was interesting to me was that it
attacks the nerves. So, like, the person
can't even feel it at that point, like,
which, thankfully. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (06:48):
Cause any skin stuff like that and all that. Like that.
Mm hmm. That sucks.
>> Chris (06:53):
So, yeah, if it's just, like, rotting.
>> Muireadhach (06:55):
Away, not that you want to be losing feeling
as well, but I feel like I would rather lose the
feeling in that situation.
>> Chris (07:02):
Right, right.
>> Muireadhach (07:03):
Sorry. Can I just show you this?
>> Chris (07:04):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (07:12):
What you got? Eczema.
>> Chris (07:14):
Eczema? I thought it was eczema.
>> Muireadhach (07:16):
He's like, why you got these bums. You got eggs.
I love that kid.
>> Chris (07:21):
Yeah, it's great. Kids are great when it comes to stuff like
that.
Yeah. Uh, yesterday. Totally off topic.
Yesterday. Uh, so we're doing our
summer program with the kids here, and reid came home. He's brought his friend
from school to it, and we're driving to
take him home. And when we get
home, reid says to justine, he's like, mom, elijah has a question
(07:42):
for you. And I thought it was gonna be something like, can I spend the night?
Which I was gonna immediately be like, no. You know,
like, because I just want a kid spending the
night tonight. Um, but he said, uh,
does Reid really have $3,000?
He was like, I told him. And justine was like, well,
(08:03):
yes, technically, but it's in his bank. You know, we set up a bank
account for him, so we're saving money so that he'll have it for
when he graduates. And Rito's like, see, I told
you. And elisha, his friend was like,
oh, man, now we gotta tell all the other boys. And I'm like,
no, stop telling people how much money you have.
Rebbe was there, too. She's like, reeve, you don't tell people how much
(08:24):
money you have. But kids, they just.
They don't care.
Anyways, back to the program. Yeah, uh, sorry.
>> Muireadhach (08:31):
I'm just throwing it off left and right.
>> Chris (08:33):
The infection sets in, and it leads to, uh, degeneration
of tissues. Uh, not to be graphic, but, you
know, it's rotting, it's falling off. The limbs are
gangrenous, and, you know, the fingers and toes, they just start
coming off. So, uh, basically it spreads until
the person can't take care of themselves anymore and they die. So this
is, you know, what we're talking about.
Leprosy in the sense of the
(08:55):
Hansen's disease comparison. Not so much the
eczema, but, like, in mark one.
>> Muireadhach (09:01):
So we were just reading that out of Luke, chapter five.
But in mark one, Jesus also comes across,
you know, with leprosy. And there's various other stories
of him coming across people with leprosy. Are you
saying that everything is all this
gangrenous? Are you saying.
>> Chris (09:17):
No, this story.
>> Muireadhach (09:19):
This story.
>> Chris (09:20):
This story is that. And I'll get to it in a little
bit because I feel like there's, like, Luke gives a little.
A little hint, a little different to, uh,
it. But, uh, the real thing. That's crazy.
And this I didn't know is that today we still. Still don't
have a cure for it. Like, there's treatments.
>> Muireadhach (09:38):
Yeah, there's treatments, but no cure.
>> Chris (09:39):
No cure. So first century, there's
no cure, there's no hope. You are literally, like you said, zombies.
Like, you are the walking dead. Like, it's literally death.
Um, so then we get into like these. Why
we're looking at is unclean the same as
sin? Because then there's the,
um, levitical laws, right? They didn't want this
to pass from people to people because they didn't really know
(10:01):
how people were catching this. So
anyone with leprosy was thrown outside of the cities.
>> Muireadhach (10:07):
Is that why?
>> Chris (10:09):
I believe so. What do you have?
>> Muireadhach (10:12):
Well, we're looking at this thing of unclean,
right? I think that wrapping into, like, why would
we even equate unclean
with sinful? Mhm. Right. So it's just like, that's
what we're tracking on. You just said, well, these people are unclean.
They're put outside of the camp. Right. They're on
the outside, but the
purpose for that happening, because there's other things that are
(10:35):
unclean as well that you need to go through various
rituals. Maybe some of it is like, yeah, you're also outside of the
camp for some amount of time. Or is like, hey, you need
to go through these various washings in
order to present yourself clean. Or as Jesus was just
directing this person, hey, go and give the offering that's directed
from Moses as a testimony this has
(10:55):
happened. So there's these things, but it's all about, like, can
you come to the temple?
>> Chris (11:00):
Right?
>> Muireadhach (11:01):
Like, there's the temple as the
epicenter, but then, like, as it comes out, there's like,
the camp or the city, right. And just like, are you allowed in
what proximity to God can
you have?
>> Chris (11:12):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (11:12):
Based on your cleanliness, ritual
cleanliness is what. What it's looking at. So I think that's where it comes
in as far as. Was it sin? Because just like,
you're saying that I can't come to the temple.
>> Chris (11:22):
Mm hmm.
>> Muireadhach (11:23):
So I'm like, outside of being able to
come into God's presence, and we're tying in this thing of
like, having some form of offering
in some situations that are needed, like
generally for modern
christians, for the most part, we look at, oh, an offering. So,
like, sin happened. So you need to give an offering to like,
(11:44):
make up for that, right? M so I think, yeah. All the
confusion coming in with that, um.
Um. To circle back around
to leprosy, is it because it was
contagious that they were put outside? It's
like, from what I can see,
maybe. Yes. But also more reasons than
that, going back to. And I
(12:06):
don't know if now is the time that you want to just jump into, like, that
whole thing of being in God's presence and why these things being unclean.
>> Chris (12:11):
Oh, yeah.
>> Muireadhach (12:12):
Why they weren't allowed.
>> Chris (12:13):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (12:14):
So you brought up Leviticus. Mm hmm. And it's
like. So this is Leviticus. What eleven
through 15 is dealing with, uh,
things that are unclean?
>> Chris (12:24):
Uh, yes.
>> Muireadhach (12:26):
I want to say you got eleven through 15 is things that's unclean.
You have 16 is the day of atonement. Then you have
17 through 19 is things
that are common.
>> Chris (12:36):
I think 17 has, uh, the as
is ale part.
>> Muireadhach (12:40):
Oh, still the day of a domain.
>> Chris (12:41):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (12:41):
And then. So 718.
>> Chris (12:43):
And then Leviticus 13 is our favorite chapter on, uh,
skin diseases.
>> Muireadhach (12:47):
Mhm. So, yeah, but you're looking at that, and it's
all kind of attached. But what's interesting when I was
looking at it is if you have
Leviticus ten and Leviticus 16
seems to be telling a story, and then you have
eleven through 15 are kind of, like, put
in there.
>> Chris (13:05):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (13:05):
So ten, you're looking at a
nahab and abayu.
>> Chris (13:10):
Oh, the two sons.
>> Muireadhach (13:11):
Yeah, the two sons. Who.
>> Chris (13:13):
They go, Aaron's two sons. Just to clarify for everyone listening,
did.
>> Muireadhach (13:16):
I say the names right? I don't have notes in front of me. I'm just going off of, like, memory
on this. Um, but they go and they
offer what the Bible terms as strange
fire, and the fire
consumes them. So they're going. And they're going
out with the way that they should be approaching God. They're
offering up the strange fire with that, and then they are
(13:36):
consumed. So you have these two sons of
the priests that are coming, and this situation
happens, and then the story just kind of
goes, all right, let's talk about all this unclean stuff, like, what
is clean, what is unclean? But then you get
to Leviticus 16, and it starts back up
again. So those two suns that were consumed by the fire, and it's
just like. It's a weird interjection into
(13:59):
Leviticus that's looking at what is
clean, what is unclean. And I think that that
really ties it in. When you look at Nahab
and Abihu, were coming to
present something to God, and they did it
incorrectly. And then you get this whole section
on kind of coming into God's presence and
what's allowed and what's not allowed, and how do you keep yourself
(14:21):
clean to be able to do that? Or if you become unclean.
How do you go through the process of, like, becoming ritually,
ceremonially clean again to come into God's
presence? So that being said, I think
that just that concept of they
did it incorrectly and they were
consumed is showing
(14:42):
more the thought of what this is. It's less to do with, like, oh, well,
it's a sinful thing. It's more. You're
coming into the presence of God. And
there's something about, like, how humans need
to do that otherwise, m. You get
consumed in some. What's his name? That when they were carrying the
ark and he. Oh, uh,
(15:02):
Uziah. Yes, I think it's
Uzia. Right.
>> Chris (15:05):
Yeah, I knew it starts. It starts with the you. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (15:08):
So again, same thing. They were told, like, hey, you shouldn't touch this.
They even had, like, that's why they were supposed to be carrying on the
poles, but they had it on a cart, and it was about to fall off of the cart, and then he
reached out to stabilize it and he just gets dropped dead. Because,
like, God is this
holy power.
>> Chris (15:24):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (15:25):
And if you're coming into or touching or
interacting with that incorrectly, then it's
dangerous.
>> Chris (15:31):
Yes. Yeah. I think that's probably the
best way to phrase it. That, like, it's
dangerous on how you come
to God if it's incorrect.
>> Muireadhach (15:40):
Yeah. So it's more like, oh, the cleanliness is more to do with
safety.
>> Chris (15:44):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (15:46):
Is how I would see that.
>> Chris (15:47):
Yeah. And for me, when I was looking at it, did, there was like a,
you know, it was a kind of a two
fold thing where, like, okay, we needed to get
this out of the community before it
spreads, because then the rest of us can't be in the
presence of God. So how do we
prevent something from infecting the community? That's,
(16:08):
uh, why there's, like, the, I mean, you talked about it,
the clean laws. So ceremony
ceremonially unclean. And then the
difference between morally unclean, like, the actions that
are way worse than, you know, it's like murder,
rape.
>> Muireadhach (16:22):
Death, which even there, when I was looking at it, because, uh, the
question that we're looking at is, is unclean the same as sinful.
>> Chris (16:28):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (16:28):
And it seemed like not all sin would
result in ceremonial
uncleanliness.
>> Chris (16:34):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (16:35):
It seemed like mostly it would be sexual immorality
and idolatry. Mhm. Pay you into
that. But, like, other stuff could be going on
and you could still kind of go to the temple without
performing these ritualistic things.
>> Chris (16:49):
Right. But it was really the, for me, looking at it, the
idea is like, okay, so we need to get this out of the community
because then it affects the whole community and
it's, you know, like, getting it so that there's
prevention of all of this, like, the spreading of
it.
>> Muireadhach (17:03):
Right.
>> Chris (17:04):
Whether it's, you know, the,
uh, worshipping a false idol or, you know, a
leprosy, it was just like, this needs. This is unclean.
And they were there for a purpose.
>> Muireadhach (17:14):
Of when you were looking into it. Because some of what I was
seeing is that maybe, uh,
it's not as contagious as,
again, my Sunday school.
>> Chris (17:25):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (17:25):
Understanding was just like, oh, no, super contagious. So they just couldn't be
around people. And like, yeah, it is
contagious, but maybe like, not all that.
Like, I don't. I didn't look far enough into the
biology.
>> Chris (17:37):
What I looked into it, it was more of like, they just
didn't know. Right. Like,
honestly, it's crazy looking and
studying into leprosy and like, the parameters that were
put around the people and people who had
leprosy and what they had to do. It really gave me pandemic
flashbacks.
>> Muireadhach (17:54):
Mhm.
>> Chris (17:55):
Of like, what it was to, like, if you were quarantined,
you're quarantined, you're unclean.
>> Muireadhach (18:00):
Hey, you can check in and see, like, if it's
been solved.
>> Chris (18:04):
Yeah. And even people with leprosy, that's what they would do. They would,
uh. Cause they're exiled outside of the community. People, their family
would bring them food and leave it at a place for
them to come and get it. I think of Ben
Hur. Have you seen the old Ben Hur with Charlton
Dustin and his mom and sister end
up getting, uh. As he's going through his
(18:25):
journey of becoming who he is, uh,
they end up getting leprosy. So when he comes back to find them,
uh, they're lepers. And so they,
uh. But the girl who was supposed to, like,
tend to the house was taking them food
still.
>> Muireadhach (18:40):
Mhm.
>> Chris (18:41):
In their cave. And that's another area where, like, they would live outside of camps
and caves and cities and stuff like that. Outside of the cities.
Uh, but, you know, it was like, a lot of it was to remove themselves.
So that way they're not there because
they just didn't know, like, how do people get this? How are
people getting it from one thing? And that was a lot of, again,
what the pandemic at the beginning was, was like, how are we
(19:01):
getting Covid. How are people catching all this stuff?
So it did give me these weird flashbacks.
>> Muireadhach (19:07):
So that's what I was saying. Like, yes, I think that that's part
of it. Which seems like you looked more into
some of the medical stuff. Like, yeah, yes. And they also didn't
know. So all that included. But I do think that the thing
of, because what they would eat, what other things could
make you unclean? Ceremonially?
>> Chris (19:24):
Ah, ceremonially, uh, bodily discharges.
>> Muireadhach (19:28):
Um, so men and women
discharges.
>> Chris (19:32):
Yes, yes. Fluid.
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (19:35):
Infer what that is. If that doesn't make sense, it's not
after.
>> Chris (19:39):
I'm not going there.
>> Muireadhach (19:39):
You can ask your mom or dad. Right?
>> Chris (19:42):
Imagine that, like 50 years old going to ask your
eight year old dad, what's bodily
fluids?
>> Muireadhach (19:49):
These guys are really bad at describing things on the podcast. I just don't know
what they're talking about.
>> Chris (19:53):
Yes.
>> Muireadhach (19:53):
Um, um. Oh, uh, but yeah, that for men.
>> Chris (19:56):
And women, touching a dead body.
>> Muireadhach (19:57):
Touching a dead body.
>> Chris (19:58):
Touching a dead body is another one. Um, menstruating for a
woman would be on, on that list too.
>> Muireadhach (20:04):
That's a bodily fluid.
>> Chris (20:05):
Yeah, yeah. But different from the other bodily
fluid.
>> Muireadhach (20:08):
Childbirth.
>> Chris (20:09):
Childbirth, yeah. So there's like just these random
things of like, they weren't necessarily bad
things that would make you unclean.
>> Muireadhach (20:17):
So going to the menstruating thing, did women have to go outside of the
camp?
>> Chris (20:20):
I believe so, yes, I believe so. Right?
>> Muireadhach (20:22):
Yeah. And yeah, I was kind of joking with you. It's just like, yeah,
oh, yeah, once a month, all the guys were just like, yo, we're having a
week long barbecue. Like, all the women are out of the
camp. Yeah, yeah, we're having a beast feast.
>> Chris (20:32):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (20:33):
Which is then looking at the beast fees. Other things that were unclean, looking at
stuff would be even animals. So that's where you get the,
um, dietary laws, right? There's
like, hey, these animals are okay or clean,
and these ones are unclean.
>> Chris (20:46):
So you got like owls and other
birds that are unclean.
>> Muireadhach (20:51):
Mhm.
>> Chris (20:51):
And then you have like the birds that you can eat. And it's the
same thing with the animals. Like hooved animals, I think it is. Right.
That are the hood ones unclean because
it's like the camel pigs
that have like the split.
>> Muireadhach (21:04):
Yeah. If it's split, you can't do that.
>> Chris (21:06):
Yeah, yeah. So those were animals you couldn't
eat.
>> Muireadhach (21:09):
Did you dive into any of the food stuff? I know that we're looking
at leprosy.
>> Chris (21:13):
No, no. A lot of this
part is just me going off of memory of super.
>> Muireadhach (21:19):
Interesting on like, well, why were those things
unclean?
And it ties into this whole thing again. So this thing
of, like, safety and coming into God's presence was like, why
would it not be safe if you've had bodily
discharges or you've touched a corpse or any of these things have
happened? And it really has to do with
God being, like, the holy God that he
(21:39):
is. I want to say that throughout that section on Leviticus, it just
keeps repeating, because I'm Yahweh. Yeah, like, you're doing
this because I'm Yahweh. You're doing this because I'm Yahweh. Like, he is the
holy, set apart God above all
gods, right? And in approaching him,
his complete holiness, and
also just getting that life,
(22:00):
like, the ultimate life force that he is.
Right. That I still
don't know how to describe that. I'm just like, he's pure life, but yet that
can be, like, dangerous and kill you, you know what I mean?
When handled incorrectly. Like, just the power that's
there. Um, but that when you're looking
at scripturally, the
(22:21):
power of life is in the blood.
So, like, if menstruating or childbirth
or things of that nature, like, blood is going out, so it's like your
life force has gone out of you. You are not whole. Whole
and complete coming into contact with a corpse.
You come into contact with something dead, so
you are not clean to come into the presence of a
(22:41):
holy God with his all powerful life.
>> Chris (22:44):
Um, Mildew was another one.
>> Muireadhach (22:46):
Yeah, mildew. So even, like, okay, so why
Mildew and why these animals? Like, why are these animals
unclean? What's going on? And through studying it, there's really
interesting things that it does come down to,
almost like, what aligns
with life and what aligns
with a natural,
(23:06):
good order of things versus what's aligning
with death and kind of more chaos
with stuff. And, um,
so that's where fish, like, what fish are? Okay, so it's like, well,
fish that have scales, you can eat those, but other fish that don't
have scales is just like, the way that they are,
are within their sphere of m. Like, well, there's,
(23:27):
um, what we call, like, shellfish.
>> Chris (23:29):
Mhm.
>> Muireadhach (23:29):
It's just like, that's not natural for, like, a
water environment.
>> Chris (23:33):
Right?
>> Muireadhach (23:33):
Like, fish are supposed to swim. You're not doing the swimming
thing. So you're not having the full picture of what it means to be
a water creature. Even when you get to, like, some of the
birds, there's, like, birds that are just straight up, like, flying
birds. Sure. But the birds that, like, dive into the
water or swim and have that. It's kind of like, yeah, maybe not so much.
Cause, like, you're in the air, but then onto the other side
(23:53):
of things. But these birds also eat carrions, so
they're going and touching dead, and they're eating the
dead in that manner. So it's like, you also can't do those.
>> Chris (24:01):
Yeah, like a vulture or buzzard.
>> Muireadhach (24:03):
Yeah, exactly. And then when it comes to other animals of, like,
how well do they respect, like, even the order that
man is creating versus, like, some of those would be invasive to
come in and just, like, start destroying things down or, like,
so again, kind of that chaos is things that you
can see are aligning with order and good. Like, what is man
establishing? And how well do things function within that? So, like, wild
(24:23):
boars come in, would, like, tear things out, whereas then even looking
at mildew or different things of that nature, of just, like, things
that are destroying, like, a house
that men have built, like, I don't
know, it's really interesting. There's a lot of
different, um, opinions and studies
into it, but this was kind of the most complete thing that.
>> Chris (24:43):
I could find that actually makes
the animals, like, the birds
eating other animals, like, because they're touching a dead
body, like, even a hawk or a falcon, that's like, eating
other flesh. So they're unclean
because they've touched dead flesh.
And if a, uh, person touches dead flesh, they're unclean.
So why. Yeah, that actually does make a lot more sense.
(25:06):
Okay. When you start thinking about which animals are allowed to eat
and which ones weren't part of that whole scheme of things.
>> Muireadhach (25:11):
Yeah. I want to say, like, a huge name within the study is
a milgram. Uh, I think it's
milgromm. And then other people building
on top of it, I want to say is, I think it's all last names.
So it'd be like, Carol and Douglas kind of.
Anyone listening to look those up, those are the ones who I think it
was. Douglas kind of pushed it the farthest with a lot of that
(25:32):
tie in that I was having. So, anyways, looking at all that,
things being unclean are things that are
related to death, are related to lacking
in order, are more on the side of chaos. So when
you're looking at those things being lacking,
coming into the presence of a perfect and holy God
is a.
>> Chris (25:51):
Dangerous thing, which, uh, another
part of it is the restoration.
>> Muireadhach (25:56):
Yes.
>> Chris (25:57):
You know, it's not just like, you go outside
and you're, like, washing off whatever was on you
or it's giving time for it to like leave your
body, but it's more about like restoring you
to come back into the community, to come back
into the presence of God. Which is why this leprosy
is, is different and why I think it was viewed
(26:17):
different by a lot of people there because there was no
restoration coming from this. You know, they were, they were
kicked out, they were banished. They were like exiled, removed from their
families. They are removed from community. So not
only is this a miserable disease because your
appendages are falling off, but like
mentally and emotionally, you're also miserable. You're,
you know, you're living in suffering. I read this, I thought it was
(26:39):
interesting. I got this, uh, from David
Guzick's commentary. And he said
doctor ab Macdonald, who was in charge of leper,
a leper colony in uto utu,
maybe, uh, the leper is sick. He said this. The leper
is sick in the mind as well as the body. For some reason, there's
an attitude to leprosy, different from the attitude to any
(26:59):
other disfiguring disease. It is associated
with shame and horror and carries in some
mysterious ways a sense of guilt. Shunned
and despised. Frequently, do lepers consider taking their own
lives? And some do.
>> Muireadhach (27:12):
Mhm.
>> Chris (27:13):
So like this. And you know, there's so
many rules with this, right? It was like the, if you
see someone and you're a leper, you're like unclean. You know, you have
to holler it out so they know not to come near you. So that
then, which I want to.
>> Muireadhach (27:25):
Say, that's another story where there was like twelve lepers where they all
kind of off in the distance shouting unclean. And Jesus has
interactions with them as well.
>> Chris (27:32):
Yeah, I don't know if we'll cross that in Luke.
>> Muireadhach (27:34):
I want to say that's in Matthew.
>> Chris (27:35):
But, yeah, then I know it's in one of them. So again, just to emphasize they're
ostracized from society and they're not allowed to reenter
it. Um, to me, this is why this one's
looked at, like, different than that and why we're looking
at sin and unclean. Like, what's the difference?
Because they, the Israelites believed
leprosy was a punishment from God. You have,
uh, King Uzziah in two
(27:57):
chronicles who was like, did really good. And then as he
got older, became prideful and like God was
like struck down with leprosy. And he lived out the rest of his
life isolated and alone as a
king, uh, with leprosy. So you
know, that's a punishment within it.
>> Muireadhach (28:14):
Yeah. And it's really interesting as things get built up.
And again, it, I can
see how it could happen just if you're looking culturally
at stuff to where when you're having these views again of like coming
into the presence of God and then you can't. And then it's just like, well, if
you can't come to the temple and you're
sinning, like when it actually comes to sin and stuff, like, how
(28:35):
is all of that functioning? And then even if you're looking
at, well, like,
yeah, well, how come you have this death disease on
you? Like, how come death is creeping in on you
early?
>> Chris (28:46):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (28:46):
And you see that throughout Jesus life, even when it comes to blindness.
Right. Um, that dude that was born blind and Jesus
goes in. Yeah. Who sinned? This guy or his parents? And he's
like, that's not anything to do with what this
is.
>> Chris (28:58):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (28:59):
So, yeah. When you look at kind of the.
>> Chris (29:01):
Perspective of the cultural people who were.
>> Muireadhach (29:04):
Suffering from ailments, is that it was looked at as a
punishment.
>> Chris (29:07):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (29:08):
Like somewhere in your lineage someone
screwed up. And this is what you get even today.
>> Chris (29:13):
Like the comparison to leprosy in it. Like,
um, I read ha. Ironsides, uh,
commentary. And his was like,
basically he says this, uh, isn't it just like sin? And yet
so often it seems to be such a little thing to begin
with, some habit which one knows is not right,
so insignificant. And it grows and grows
until, uh, at last sin is manifested
(29:36):
in all its terrible corruption. A little sin
leads to something worse and increases until it's
emphasized in the whole life and spiritually form of
leprosy. So even modern day today,
there is that comparison to like sin and
leprosy based off of like what it does to the body.
>> Muireadhach (29:53):
Yeah.
>> Chris (29:54):
Um, and looking at the culture, like you're talking about the culture,
like the Pharisees back then would have that same idea, you
know, in the first century, uh, if we go back
to, I think it's deuteronomy 28, where
God was like, if you do all these things,
blessings, blessings, blessings. But if you don't, then here's the
curses, sickness, disease will be among us
people. So, you know, they really thought
(30:17):
this way. Even the rabbis would like, they were
despised. Leprosies.
>> Muireadhach (30:21):
Yeah. And you look around at,
especially in pharisees, right? Because they're looking at, we're still
under oppression. So like we're still
under exile, so to speak. And they're looking at these
symptoms. Mhm. Of like what sin and
disobedience looks like. And pharisees were like, hey, we want
to follow God's law so that we can get
(30:42):
out of this to where, like, you know, a lot of times we kind of
crap on pharisees, but it's just like, they're kind of doing what a lot
of, like, christians want to do. Like, guys, can we get back to it? Like, look at the
state of the country. Can we take this thing
seriously? So it's like, I can get where they're coming
from. And even so. Yeah, like, I don't
know. Um, was
(31:02):
Covid a judgment from God, right? There's a lot of people that look at
those types. They're just like, hey, look at how much sin has been,
not only in this country. Like, you know, uh, people still
look at things in those ways.
>> Chris (31:13):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (31:13):
Um, um. But it's such a sad
thing how you were saying even on the. For
modern people who are suffering through this,
the amount of, like, depression or,
you know, taking their own lives and getting to that.
Because, like, isolation,
like, think about it.
You get sent to prison. What's the prison within prison?
>> Chris (31:36):
Isolation.
>> Muireadhach (31:36):
Isolation. Isolation. To lose contact
with people. But then, like, even if you have,
like, a, uh, colony of lepers, which, you know,
that kind of is what happened, though. We're all unclean. Like, we need to
survive together. But there's just something about
being treated less than human.
>> Chris (31:53):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (31:53):
And it's just so horrible.
It's dehumanized. Like, you know, it's just like, such a. For
people made in the image of God to see, like,
how humans can treat other humans, it's like, it's
so screwed up. And what we see here with
Jesus, right.
The man says, lord, if you're
willing, you can make me clean. He's not
(32:16):
doubting. He's not saying, like, I don't know if you could actually make me
clean. He's saying, if you're actually willing.
Like, if you'd actually look at
me and consider doing. I know that you could, but, like, do you even
want to?
>> Chris (32:28):
Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (32:30):
That's where Jesus says, I am willing. And I think
that's just so beautiful, you know, because the
level of faith is just like, hey, if you're willing, you could do this.
>> Chris (32:38):
Right? Right. Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (32:40):
And to show that out of all of the Pharisees and
everything else of just, like, the treatment. And I get why, again,
like, if it's contagious and everything else, like, I can
understand. But that where we see
that on the human side of things, the
reason for all of this uncleanness is, yeah, if it's
contagious or, oh, I've touched a dead
body. The uncleanness always
(33:02):
traveled in one direction. Like,
the dead body has death. I've touched the dead body,
the death came onto me. Like, that's how
uncleanness worked. But when it comes to
Jesus, he touches
the uncleanness. And the thing that was unclean gets
made clean.
>> Chris (33:20):
Right? Yeah.
>> Muireadhach (33:21):
And we see that with leprosy here. So we have
kind of those big three things. We've got like, um,
leprosy, skin diseases. You've got corpses
and you've got, um, bodily discharges. They're kind of the
main three uncleannesses. And what we'll
see again, I'm not sure if it'll be fully, I think we should
cover it through our journey that we're going on of discovering a savior,
(33:42):
but that Jesus comes into contact with all three of those things.
M so I'll just put a couple of them out there. That way
people are like, oh, I gotta wait till episode whatever, when I already forgot,
uh, the woman who's suffering with the issue of blood, that she's been
bleeding for twelve years, she just touches
the hem of Jesus's garment and she's made clean.
She's healed and made clean. Right.
(34:03):
And Jesus, when
he comes into contact with corpses, most
famous would probably be Lazarus, right? Like he was dead, dead.
He was on like day four. And
a dead body, a corpse is made alive again.
>> Chris (34:18):
Right.
>> Muireadhach (34:18):
So this is even that different view of what I was saying, like, the dangerous
side of God and like his complete holiness
and life givingness, is that now you have through
Jesus, he's coming and he's touching these unclean things
and making them clean. Like, it's,
that's for me, when looking at, uh, discovering a savior, like, what is
this? Like, well, if we're going to look at taking the Old Testament
(34:38):
seriously for all of the things that are in Leviticus and like,
why it would get set up that way, then
what we see with Jesus is a willingness
to come in and like, be correcting those things.
>> Chris (34:50):
Right. Right. Let's put a pause on the episode right here
and continue the rest of it next week. I'm Chris.
>> Muireadhach (34:56):
I'm, uh, Muireadhach
>> Chris (34:57):
We are your church friends. Thanks for listening.
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