What Happened to Kevin Arnovitz? featuring Kevin Arnovitz

On today’s show, Rohan is joined by former ESPN NBA writer Kevin Arnovitz. They discuss Kevin’s experience of watching the NBA as a casual fan and the frustrating nature of the NBA regular season. Later, they wonder whether parity has actually hit the NBA and if current stars mean as much as they used to. Finally, they predict the battlegrounds of the ongoing CBA negotiations, and Kevin provides an update on his current career

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to another episode of Open Floor. I'm Rohan Acren.
He joined today by an incredibly incredibly special guest. This
has been long in the works. A lot of bartering
went into this. He is an Atlanta native of Columbia grad,
a long time writer for ESPN, a former editor at NPR.

(00:23):
Here to answer the reddit question what happened to Kevin Arnovits.
Kevin Arnovits is on Open Floor. Kevin. How's it going.
I'm doing very well. I'm sufficiently amused that there's a
that there is a fairly a Reddit thread asking where
I'm at. Honestly, they have some good information on there
in terms of the what you're rumored to be up

(00:45):
to now based on what you've told me. So I
the reddit slutes man, you cannot get anything past them.
I suppose I don't. I'm dying to know who who
who populates the the reddit sleuth ranks um, but whatever, um.
This is thrilling for me because I was like the

(01:07):
incredibly big journalism nerd who when they when ESPN started
the Heat Index twelve years ago, I was like, literally,
nothing in my life will be better than this, Like
ESPN has Kevin Arnovitz Um and Tom Haverstrow just covering
the heat full time. I'm so excited. UM. And now
we're here doing a podcast together twelve years later. Kevin,

(01:28):
you also made you just sent the most monumental email,
one of the most monumental emails I've received in my
entire life, when I told you I was a fan
of your Top Chef podcast and you said, let's get lunch.
I've been craving this place called Mini Kebab, and that
not only has Minni Kebab been I've evangelized the restaurant
to so many people. I think the chef Arman is

(01:51):
one of my closest friends. And this is all because
of you. People like, how did you hear about it?
And I'm like, what's the funny story. I mean, Armenian
cooking in Los Angeles, Yeah, next to Aravan or anything.
And Mini Cabb was such an institution just when I
live closer to it. Um to say nothing about that.
It has its seating comfortably for three yea. There is

(02:13):
no parking on Vine Street anywhere. Um, and yet it is. Um.
It's not even a concept restaurant, but the concept unintentionally
is brilliant. Which is what if you took small I mean,
how would you describe the sort of the the the
the the trademark mini Kebab? Well, do you know that
he doesn't This is not to get too deep. We

(02:35):
have this one emailer, Darryl Swenson, who gets really mad
when we do not enough basketball talk to start the show.
But mini Kebab doesn't even so many cabbs anymore. Are
you aware of this? What do what do you mean?
I mean, I don't. I don't eat anymore. I eat
chicken the lape so they don't actually do the little
mini ones that you can have wrapped. Yes, you have
to order. It's like a catering special order to get

(02:58):
the actual Minikebab. Minikebab. Yeah, I guess, I guess scale
is sort of he's he was just like, yeah, I'm
sick of making the mini kebabs. I'm mad at my
dad for putting it on the menu and naming the
restaurant after it. And also this restaurant that Kevin's talking
about is like a It really is a hole in

(03:18):
the wall, and he's mentioned there's like two tables in there.
They do not even indoor seating anymore. There's one picnic
table outside, and that's it, all right. What I would
say to Armand is if I because I if I
have an audience here and I can probably mentioned this
next time I'm in there is what I would like
to be able to do as a man who's who's
um flirting with keto diet right now, um watching my

(03:40):
metabolism slow to zero, is I would like to be
able to order the chicken lit kebabs and the chicken
buy shish um in the breast shish for that matter,
as a la carte items without the rice and hummus
one the no no, but you have to call. What
I'd like to be able to do is to do
it on the online delivery platforms um the pop be
let your phone. Is I would like not to have

(04:01):
to call to do all the hard ordering because I
ended up doing is just having to throw away rice
and throwing away right sin because you know it's just
a sin you can't throw of course, of course, wow,
well yeah we could. Honestly, we could do ninety minutes
two hours on we have we have minutes exactly. But
there's there's so much I want to get to. I

(04:23):
really am thrilled, Kevin Um. I know that you know,
we we see each other every now and then in
l A, but we don't. This is like the first
time I think we've ever had an actual basketball conversation
will be on this podcast, and I'm very excited because
you've genuinely been one of my favorite writers for so
long and I'm I'm very excited to do this. We've
never talked we talked basketball, don't. We've talked about the

(04:45):
auto bio and sort of the Miami Heats selling out
Um on the week side too in one of the
more aggressive defensive schemes that we we we've we've certainly
it's come up like I think we I think we
had like one one legitimate versation on the way back
from the Pacady and Farmers farmers Market, but not not
in like you know, I'm really we're really going to

(05:06):
drill down today, I think. So I'm very thrilled. Um.
Let's start here because you are no longer actually covering
the NBA for the first time in a long time,
which is weird to me to think that I'm writing
about the NBA and you're not. Um. And we talked
a bit a little about this on the phone this week.
Is you are now getting to experience the NBA, not

(05:28):
as a writer, but someone who is you know, I
think in between a casual fan and a hardcore fan.
I mean, obviously you still know so much about the support.
You can't just that doesn't just go away. But what's
the experience been like for you kind of checking in
and out of the NBA your own convenience. Right, It's
so interesting And I didn't I was prepared for this,
right because you live a life where and I wouldn't.

(05:50):
I don't know how you would even catalog the amount
of hours people like you and I spend watching the league.
When you're covering it officially, there's the sort of I'm
on the West Coast, so starting it for a clock. Uh,
you know, you check in on the East Coast games.
Maybe you're working on a feature about DeMar De Rosen,
so for three weeks you watch every Bowls game. There's
the second spectrum. Hey, I'm just gonna kind of watch

(06:10):
efficiently how this team is defending the pick and roll
because I'm I'm gonna be speaking with Zach Low and
I want to be able to kind of show my
work on that podcast, to say nothing of going down
to Staples Center or if I'm traveling. And then so
you go from this let's call it twenty hours a
week of just viewing down to you know, in my
new life, like two and a half hours, three hours.

(06:32):
So all of a sudden, you become what I consider
a casual plan. I would imagine that in New York
at the NBA office, people who spend three hours watching
televised NBA broadcast. You're probably hardcore fans, maybe not the
hardest core of the hardcore fans, but it is this
entirely different experience because, like you want to optimize your viewing,

(06:53):
so you know, when you and I if you're doing
it professionally, and you turn on, say a Clippers Denver game,
and there is no Jamal Murray and there's no Kawhi
Leonard or Paul George, you can settle in. It's like, Okay,
you know, I'm here for the Terrence Man experience, Like
I'm here to watch Zube defend as the big man
in the pick and roll would observe whether you know

(07:15):
what he's doing against Yoga ch and how you play
that matchup. But when you're a casual fan, and you
do want to do that optimization. Basically, it's like you
goes say, oh, right, this is a really big matchup,
this is the big ABC game, or this is a
big Wednesday night or Thursday night game, and like the
thing that I've noticed, um that I would say it
frustrates me, because it's because there are plenty of other options.

(07:36):
I wouldn't say I'm frustrated, but I would say that
the thing that I've noticed I always knew, but it
impacts me more and I have a different reaction to
it as a casual fan. Is how rarely you turn
on what you think is going to be a matchup
of two top NBA teams and you actually get to
see them anywhere close to them, Like it never happens,

(07:57):
Like you turn on the Bucks in the first one
of this season. Oh no, Drew Holiday, no, Chris Middleton.
Oh well, I'm not gonna stick around for this. And
it's not because I don't like the Bucks. Is I
really like the Bucks, but I'm just not going to
I have X number of hours to watch the Milwaukee
Bucks this year ahead of the playoffs, and I'm just
not going to do it on a night when two
of their three best players are not on the floor.
And like you, the same thing with the Clippers. Was
really excited about them going into the season, and I mean,

(08:20):
they're stacked and you just don't get to see them.
And and it's sort of strange because I historically, as
an analyst and somebody covering in the league, I am
I wouldn't say supportive, but I am somebody who kind
of early on and recognized that the A two games
schedule is just it's untenable. And the problem is not

(08:40):
that these guys are sitting out because they're lazy or
obstinate or overly cautious. The problem is is like, yeah,
if you want to win a championship, you're not gonna
have a guy like Kawi land or playd minutes. I mean, hell,
I think you are. You wouldn't blame them having twenty
one minutes or even two thousand minutes, right, And and
so I can't disagree. It's not like I'm throwing stuff
at my TV saying, ah, this sucks. You know, Kauai

(09:03):
is not playing it like I get it, um you know,
but I do think that the for me, it makes
like I'm now much more aware of just how uncompelling
the regular season product can be unless it's like a
marquee Christmas Day matchup of two great teams. Um, The
median game on the league schedule, the fifth most important

(09:27):
game or most celebrated game, is just not a great product.
Um Now, I said, I also watched a great crazy
Hawks Bowls closing overtime game the other evening, like after dinner,
and was just like wowed and and it was an
insane game. I'm sure league insiders really talked about. I
was just lucky that I checked my phone and said, oh,

(09:48):
is there a fourth quarter? You know it's six thirty
eight Eastern Pacific time. Oh, the East Coast games are
probably getting a fourth quarter. There might be a good one.
Let me settle in. Like I've almost gone to a
made it red zone basketball viewing on nights where I'm
home after dinner for an hour or two, maybe before
we put in a TV show or something. Um but

(10:11):
but it is. It's such a different experience being the
casual fan who will go days without checking the standings
with the box scores and then just kind of says, oh,
you know, I've got an hour here. It's it's it's
it's it's the fourth quarter of East Coast and five
o'clock games, like, let me, it's just a different experience,
and it's the worst experience in the sense that I
do worry for the league that it's just like you

(10:32):
just don't get main major players playing at the top
of their game in high stick situations at all, like
they it never happens. Yeah, it's funny. I was at
We're recording this on a Friday. I was at the
Sun's Clippers game last night, and you know, second night
of a back to back, and I'm with you it

(10:53):
why should the Clippers push Kawhi Leonard on the second
night of a back to back but he sits out,
Paul George sits out. It's and that is happening routinely,
Like when the Clippers played the Celtics earlier this week
and most guys were healthy. I mean, the Celtics have
their own injury issues, and you know you're not going
to predict Al Horford going into the health protocol or
what's going on with Rob Williams. But that was like

(11:14):
the first time it felt like there was a game
with steaks and it's just I think that's the issue
you're getting at is you know, even that Hawks blows game,
which was very entertaining, and you know, I enjoyed it
that that Griffin game winner. I was like, this is nuts.
There's ultimately it's fleeting it. It's very a fleeting, you
know experience, because you're like, this game doesn't mistakes. I

(11:36):
remember when I first moved to Los Angeles, I covered
that first Lakers Clippers game back in two thousand nineteen,
and it was like, this is gonna be the big
rivalry durance out on the Warriors anymore. And my takeaway
from that game was like, oh, like, I actually think
that this is the first time I felt like a
regular season game has mattered in so long because there's
no big juggernaut in the league and all the stars

(11:58):
are actually playing and it was still kind of the Clippers.
I think we've always had an element of you know,
load management and stuff in the league. I think the
Clippers accelerated that conversation quite a bit that year, especially
just because Kawai's stature in the league at that point
that yeah, I'm with you. I obviously it's again like
I'm watching every night. I don't even I don't even

(12:20):
think about it. Now, when the stars missing, I just
assume a team is gonna be missing. Guys. The Grizzlies
haven't had a minute of Jaren Jackson, desn' vane and
John Morand and Dylan Brooks playing together this season. Um.
It's funny because you mentioned kind of the red zone
experience of kind of bumping around if there's a good
fourth quarter, you'll watch and the NBA is definitely, I

(12:40):
think trying to capitalize on that a little bit. They
have this crunch Time app now which is trying to
rip huff NFL red zone, which is a smart thing
to do, you know, hop around these close games. It's
it's funny though, because you know, I mentioned on this
podcast a few times this year about how I'm you know,
I'm like back on the Miami Dolphins narcotic. Like two,

(13:03):
I had four good weeks in a row, and I
was like, oh my god, this, I bought a jersey
which was really embarrassing, like really like so regretful. I'll
regret that already. But it's just it sounds silly, but
when I watch a NFL game compared to an NBA game,
I'm like, this feels and there's so many reasons for it,

(13:23):
but it just feels so much more important, and it's
I'm I wonder if there's anything the NBA could ever
do to kind of approach that level of steaks in
the regular season again. Yeah, I mean I litigated this,
I mean literally a seven team minute talk at the
m I T. Sloan Sports and a W the Conference
a few years ago, sort of begging the league to

(13:44):
kind of take the HBO Peak TV f X network
Peak TV sort of tech. And that would require just
limiting or not limiting, but just reducing the number of
regular feeling games exponentially, right, Like, I like I would
go down fifty eight and and and it's interesting because
I you know, talking with very smart people in the
NBA who actually think about these issues. Um, you know,

(14:08):
they've sort of determined even reducing any ten games wouldn't
do anything like to have the effect that we're looking for,
which is this matters, you have to go down at
the very most of sixty four and then you probably
have to go considerably below that. And um what is
interesting is I went I took my dog Howard, who
you know well, who you've cared for. Um, I took

(14:28):
over to a friend's house. Um, that as a pool
that lets us get golden retriever here in the pool
on a hot Sunday afternoon at the benated football season,
and he has like the league passed or not the
red zone thing. I'm not a big football fan, I am.
I am this classic, fair weathered Atlanta sports fan, stereotypical
southern Atlanta Houston like Miami's like I only care about

(14:51):
the NFL when the Falcons are six and two at
the turn and even then you know whatever, and um,
but it was just like it's like, this is what
he does on Sunday after this. This is a very
high power, high powered executive UM in the music industry
and just incredibly intelligent guy. He's from the East Coast

(15:12):
Eagles or his team, and it's like that's what he
does on send the afterntive. It's like you get the
little the floaty noodles out in the pool and he's
got like the screen is like kind of by the
pool and and it's just like it is so optimal
and it's it's it's a ritual, right, this is what
you do on Sundays. And it's just there are these
moments now as a casual fan where I look at

(15:32):
how well the NFL is position to just optimized fan
viewing to get people to care about the game. It's
not that they don't have the kind of narrative conversations
that dominate the NBA and the transactional stuff certainly that
goes on. But I was captivated. It's like, I don't
I can't name five pro football players, Like I literally can't.

(15:54):
I didn't realize that Matt Ryan had been traded from
the Atlanta Falcons until I got there and realized there's
some other guy now. Um and and they were playing
the Seahawks that day. Um And. But I was just like, holy,
Like the NBA just doesn't have this. It doesn't have
and again major Baseball doesn't have it. Part of it
is just the nature of what the NFL is, which

(16:15):
is sixteen games. Though it's funny I heard one NBA
official once joked to me it was kind of why
I've always had um a soft spot for Adam Silver
and kind of structural issues, which is like, hey, we're
up to Adam. There only be sixteen games in the NBA. Like,
I think there is a net recognition that scarcity could
really help the NBA. But there's also a reality that
like in terms of revenue in the gate and everything else,

(16:36):
Like you can't have sixteen games, right, you probably can't
have fifty eight games, which I want, um, unless you're
willing just gonna pay this mortgage up front, like you're
gonna pay this cost upfront, and just hey guys, we're
limiting a quarter or third of the NBA schedule. We'll
get some of it back through a mid season tournament.
I am pro mid season tournament. Um. I think it
will be lousy the first few years, and I think

(16:56):
over time, as people kind of grow up with it,
it will increase in stage and there will be a
generation of kids who who don't know the tournament as
a gimmick but just know it as a reality, and
then ultimately they will take to it. But and I
also feel badly because you know, I remember kind of
somebody a fan on Twitter commenting that, like, you know,
God on all order of its does is bag on
how bad then it is? And I'm sympathetic to that,

(17:18):
Like nobody wants to hear someone's like and the NBA,
why can't you be more like your brother DNF? But um,
what I would say is I only say this because
I think when the NBA is at its best, like
when you get high stakes playoff basketball where the teams
are full strength, I think there's nothing better. I know
hockey fans insists that, oh man, sudden death, golden goal

(17:38):
kind of hockey in playoffs. There's nothing better than that,
and I totally understand why it's appealing, even though I
think the sport is kind of ridiculous. UM the general concept.
I mean, it was like Tim Mathison in that episode
of UM, that pilot of West Wing was like all
goals are scored by accident and hockey, like I truly
believe that, Like I think there's random Ricochet's um. But
with basketball, I only because I do believe that, like

(18:01):
if the NBA can get more peak n b A,
like there's no there's no better product. I don't care
about football, I don't care about baseball extrandings in the playoffs,
I don't care about sudden death hockey. Like peak NBA
basketball where everybody cares it all matters and everyone's on
the floor is better than anything. And it's like I

(18:21):
just would love to see the league be able to
capture of that more often during the regular season, and
I just don't think structurally the league is set up
for that. And that's why I think the regular season
product is lame, and it's why I think the league
has sort of sold its soul to kind of Twitter
narratives and try to position players there's something other than

(18:44):
basketball players, which is great for people being positioned however
they want to be positioned. But at the end of
the day, like as my buddy Miles Brown, who you know,
is a frequent Twitter it's like, oh, great, the league
that is never about the game is back, you know,
the game that is never about the game is back.
And we're again, once again not talking about the game.
And I do think it does have potential fatal consequences

(19:07):
for the league unless, of course, and this will get
to our I guess our CBA conversation, which is, unless
networks and streamers fork over billions and billions of dollars
for the rights to broadcast these games. And it really
doesn't matter if you watch or not, because you know,
the check cashes and if nobody under the age of
third even watches a basketball game, it doesn't really matter. Yeah,

(19:29):
it's it's fascinating because you know. I mean, I'm working
on a story right now that entails like talking to
players on a team that are you know, the team
as a championship contender, and I'm like, isn't it annoying
after you've been in like two you know, when you've
been near your team for example, that's been in multiple
playoff runs, It's like, why would how could you begin
to get yourself to be motivated about the regular season.

(19:51):
And I'm talking about as a player, like why would
you know, just as just an example, like we're lucky
that Steph Curry tries as hard as he does during
the other season. There's he's no incentive to at this
point in his career because they could enter the postseason
at five hundred or whatever the case may be, and
they can be confident in what they do. And you know,

(20:11):
I wrote a small story last year also at just
kind of the difference between playoff basketball and regular season basketball.
No matter whether it was a coach, player, no matter
the team, everyone, every single person, it's a different sport.
Like independently giving me that quote, it's a different sport.
And to your point about why it's so good, I
think with the brilliance of playoff basketball especially is that

(20:34):
when you have two great teams going at it, like
you know, forget the first round, but you have two
great teams like the Bucks and the Celtics. In a
football game, like in an individual football game, weird stuff
can happen. A lot of flukey stuff can happen. You
can kind of hide behind it. In a basketball game,
there's a hundred possessions in one game, like you mentioned,
there's no scoring by accident, um, you know, over the

(20:55):
course of a of a full playoffs and that's what
makes it so exciting. And I when you talk to
players and even they are like, yeah, you know, sometimes
it is hard because we just played in the finals
and you know, how to go back to such lower
stakes basketball. It's uh, it's it's a weird experience at
times because like I said, we're so I'm so deep

(21:16):
in it now, like as you know that you just
get used to it. But it really is gonna come
down to if the if the TV companies continue to
sell over the money, which doesn't seem to be an issue, um.
And it's good to know that the league on some
level understands like scarcity would help. I even just I
think about the weird scheduling, and I understand that the

(21:38):
logistical factors are so crazy, But when we're talking about
say the NFL, even it's like I know when the
games are, I know what channel to turn on and
there will be a football on, Whereas the NBA, it's
like last week or two weeks ago. It's like there
was one Tuesday night that literally had one game on
the schedule, then a Wednesday night that had like thirteen games.

(22:00):
It did the day before Election Day, they did the
every single team is playing and every game starts fifteen
minutes apart, which I liked but then became overwhelming very quickly. Um,
It's just it feels like, on one hand, I respect
that they're constantly trying things, but it just it feels

(22:20):
like they're not trying the thing that everyone knows is
probably going to be answer, which is shorteness, Like give me,
like give me two days or three days that I
know are NBA days. I'm watching on Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday
every week there's basketball on. Yeah. The way I I
kind of I presented is I would have the league
go dark on Monday, right, just you don't need to

(22:41):
compete with it's Monday night football. Uh. The teams themselves
will tell you that the arena um revenue is just
like like Mondays, just a terrible night. Like like there's
nothing that a CEO or ticket sales VP hates more
than the schedule in August coming across their desk and
seeing like Monday night dates, they hate that, right, so
just get get rid of it, and every team should

(23:02):
play like there's like a weekend pot of games, like
you have maybe your Friday night is like kind of
a national doubleheader, and you know, maybe one or two
other games and you can flex it, and then everybody
plays like either a Friday, Saturday Sunday game, and everybody
plays a Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday game, right, And and in
fact most of those games are on Wednesday, with the
sort of the where the national viewer maybe looks at

(23:24):
Tuesdays and Thursdays or whatever. And but to your point,
is regularizing it, like there's a secular holiday in this
country every Sunday between Labor Day in early January, right
or actually well into February when you consider the playoffs, right, Like,
it's just it's just understood. Everyone gets together. The bars
in my shitty sports city, which is actually your shitty
sport actually have like Cleveland Browns fans on Kawango crowded out.

(23:48):
It's just like it's it's a holiday and it's right.
And I do think regularity predictability, um, you know the
idea like like you know, talk to a small market
business side person in the n b A on a
week where they've got to basically sell four games in
seven days, where the teams at home for a homestand

(24:10):
one day Wednesday and then god for a bit of
back to back, which they really truly hate, not for
restaurant recovery reasons, but like you know, try getting your
metropolitan area of two point one million people to fill
up that arena twenty thousand seats times too on consecutive
week nights, right, like like they hate that. Um, and
so it just isn't optimist. But and again I mean

(24:32):
this is all you know, this is all structural. I
do think, as you said, scarcity is going to have
to factor in the equation. Or maybe it's just like
you know what, hey, look guys, there's gonna be nine
weeks of peak basketball, which is a sixth of the
year for God's sakes, literally during the playoffs, you get
meaningful games every single night, literally every night or day

(24:52):
for nine weeks. And yeah, you know what, the regular
season is going to have limited peaks. We can try
to amp up some of the those peaks. I do
think a tournament could be fun. Um. You know, maybe
you can reduce games. Um. But and again, I tend
to be less precious about oh, the poor kid who
drove in from Baker's Field to come see Jayson Tatum

(25:15):
and he's resting, or you know, like I do tend
to be a little less precious about that than most people.
It's more just I just think that what you should
want for your product is for the median game, for
the random van on the random night to turn on
the TV and say, wow, this is compelling, you know, um,
more often, and I just think it's better for the product.
Speaking of that, we talked about this a little bit,

(25:36):
and I did want to bring it up because you know,
I mentioned to you, like, I personally think the standings
are weird this year, and you're not the first person
who's told me, like, just give it a little time.
But I think if I told anyone the top six
in the West, you know, thirty games into the season
would be Memphis, New Orleans, Denver, Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento. You know,

(26:00):
I can't even imagine the the odds I would have
gotten on that. I'm not. I'm better. So I'm just
I'm using that phrase like I know what it means.
But it's been a weird season. Like number one to
ten in the West are separated by five and a
half games, one to eleven separated by six. Um, there's

(26:20):
a case to be made that there's like actual parity
in the NBA this year. Um. You know Howard Beck
wrote about it for our site. Kind of just the
nature of this this season being very bunched up. And
when you and I were talking about this what we
wanted to talk about on the show. One thing that
came up that I thought was interesting is, like you

(26:41):
mentioned to me ten years ago, we knew like the
Spurs were going to be in the top four in
the West, no matter what the thunder, We're gonna be
in the top four in the West, no matter what.
You kind of had these stalwart teams, and I think
part of that was the player movement was not quite
as much or not quite as heavy as it is
now think we also had I I think the league

(27:03):
is every day, like every successive day is more talented
than day before. But you could maybe argue that, like
the top end talent ten years ago made more of
a difference than the top end talent does now. I
just wanted to get your thoughts on this notion of parody.
Do you think it exists in the NBA? Is it
just about like we mentioned, people don't play as much anymore?

(27:25):
But do you read anything into kind of this very
bunched upstandings. Yeah, I don't know. I mean so, and
I you know, I'd love to engage someone who actually
kind of looks at it statistically, you know, our friends,
someone someone who did research. Yeah, but I mean it's like, okay,
so what are those teams that like? And you were

(27:46):
talking too this like you could if someone gave you
even money on as much as you wanted to bet
on the proposition in two thousand and thirteen fourteen fifteen,
the Oklahoma City Thunder will finish in the top four
in the West. By the way, this was the hyper
competitive West, right, Like take that bet like you would
take it for San Antonio. I mean, hell, there were
several years you probably take it for the Clippers, where

(28:06):
it's just like, you know, you look at their basketball reference,
it's like fifty fifty six six, you know, and like, okay,
so why don't those teams exist anymore? Now? I mean,
I think in the case of the Milwaukee Bucks, they do.
And why do they exist but because they have one
of the two or three best players in basketball, right
And that was true of the Oklahoma City Thunder as well,
Like he was just understood that, like the Kevin Durant
team is going to win a regular season total of

(28:28):
x um. Lebron was like that for a while until
he's sort of, you know, took his foot off the
pedal in the regular season. Um. But you know, Boston
very much shares that sort of property, which is do
you have a young top five player? Like do you
have a young top five player? Is often the Derrick

(28:49):
Rose in Chicago when he was healthy being all there,
you know, up there for for for a very long time,
obviously the heat during the early um heatles of era,
Like do you have a young or prime top five player?
If you do, you're probably going to be penciled in
for a top four in your conference. And I mean
right now is like who are who was? Who are

(29:11):
who are the top five players in their prime right now? Young?
Top young, too early prime to prime, not anywhere past that,
Like who are the top We we know that the answer,
I mean we we think that the answer is Janice Luca,
Who else? Yokitch? Yeahs definitely Ta Tatum's controversial, but lit

(29:36):
is for the argument is saying that he's a very
freaking productive player who plays most nights, who they don't
worry too much about rest and recovery. He's gonna be
on the floor and he plays a two way game,
right like, like that's Tatum and so okay. So to
the E staid that there are a few of these
teams like and I think Boston, Milwaukee, and I think
before it's all over, Memphis is sort of distinguished itself

(29:57):
as a team penciled in. If you want to put
your also even money that they're gonna be a top
four seed, you probably can do it and rest healthy
so long as jaw doesn't get hurt, right Like, Like
is that fair to say? I think so? Yeah, I'm
we'll have to do a full podcast on the show
about Memphis. At one point, which is first in the West,
even though they've had all kinds, they played the most

(30:20):
random line up some nights, Like I don't know what,
like is it voodoo? Is it? I don't know what's
going on in Memphis, but it seems like no matter
who they put on the floor last year, job, it's
like twenty five games and they's still finished, um second
in the conference. So yes, but that's a separate conversation.
But yes, if you want to have it, I will

(30:41):
come on and I will watch Memphis Grizzlies basketball for
three irrespective and you know, and I will um so yeah,
but yeah, it is just um yeah, I've personally just
had a hard time making out like what's real and
what's not real in the season, like Indiana's fifteen and

(31:01):
fourteen they just beat the Warriors. You know, Steph miss
the end of that game. Whatever are they going to
stick around? Are they not gonna tank? Like, what's the
deal there, Sacramento? You know, come back down to earth.
But the offense is still really good. Utah is trying.
Like Utah is ahead of the Warriors in the standards
and has been consistently for over thirty games. Now, like

(31:23):
on some level, doesn't that have to mean something. Yeah,
I mean the other thing is also I would say
is and you were talking at the Pacers of the
mid of the mid teams last few day. I do
think there was this species of team. And by the way, okay,
see in San Antonio, UM in Indiana penciled them in
for fifty eight wins and they're gonna be in the

(31:44):
top fours. That you can bet your house on it. Right,
Like there was a formula there which is we defend
like crazy and we rebound like motherfucker's right, and like
and I know it sounds really other bit, but like
that was just like you knew that when you went
to the Hollinger teams at rankings before the NBA had it,
Like like the Pacers were going to be a top

(32:05):
five team and they were going to be both in
defense and in rebounding. And I'm pretty sure of the rebounding.
The street it's like, okay, well, it's almost mathematically unless
you're throwing the ball around the gym, like you're going
to just win basketball games. You're gonna win them against
bad teams. You're gonna win them when you're best players
may not be on the floor or may not be
optimally on the floor. And I do think that, like

(32:27):
is that formula, Like we know, like which teams right
now are you know, you can bet your life on
the fact that they're going to be a top eight
a top eight defensive and rebounding team. And I think, like, like,
who are those teams? Oh, Boston, I mean the Celtics
aren't rebounding this year. But my sense is guy for

(32:47):
a guy doesn't watch the game a lot, it's some
um like I know that like Memphis, like like it
didn't matter they didn't shoot the ball well last year.
I know they like any team that gets a third
of their misses is just going to be difficult to
contend with and they're gonna win a lot of and
like those things don't slump, like rebounding oddly and like
rebounding defense don't slump very often. It's like maybe that's it.

(33:10):
Is that formula, that old San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Like
you know, we rebound the ball defensively and we defend
and like if you do that, you're gonna just kind
of look just sort of walt sleep off your way
into fifty two wins. And then like maybe that formula
just doesn't exist anymore. I don't know. It's it's hard

(33:30):
to say it's a weird league. Right now. I want
to get into the CBA talk real quick. I'm gonna
put you on the spot a little bit, and I
apologize in advance because I know you did not allow
me to do this too. But do you get the
sense that Boston is in a class of its own
right now? Or do you feel like it's a wide
open race? Oh no, no, I think I think. I

(33:52):
don't say wide open, I don't. I mean I think
Boston is. I was at that game that you were
talking about, the Clipper game the other but of course
they didn't play well and they were out of it.
They pretty much, you know, called up the dogs early
fourth quarter. But um, I think like they in Milwaukee
are just clearly to me in the East with Brooklyn

(34:13):
as this is the classic old Lebron Cleveland team where okay,
they're gonna hang around in the fourth or fifth seed.
We don't really know. They don't defend at least ostensibly,
but maybe they could if they needed to. Like we're
old and we're just that team, Like we're just not
a show up every day kind of team. But I
think Boston and I mean I think Milwaukee is really good. Um,

(34:36):
I mean did they get there? They got their butts
kick last night, right, Like that was sort of by Memphis.
But I still in sort of an old softie that
believes in championship pedigree and like, yeah, like the Firm
of Onte Decompo Holiday in Middleton just basketball games professionally,

(34:56):
Like that's just what they do. They win basketball games. Um,
but yeah, the West is kind of weird. The West.
I have no grasp on there's no old team with
gravitas lawyers, and we know that they're vulnerable and they're
not entirely. I mean, they're gonna miss Steph for two weeks.
They're gonna be in a hole, man, Like they're gonna

(35:18):
be in a hole. I Phoenix like in some ways
fits the profile. Phoenix is like a roy shot test.
It's like they could be you could look at them
is that old team with maybe some gravitas they've been
to a finals. Or you could look at them as
like a new version of the Utah Jazz. Or it's
like they maxed out. The vibes are bad. It's not
gonna end well. Memphis and New Orleans are so fun

(35:40):
on paper, and it would be we talked about the
League office, I think the League office would be um,
not thrilled with the Memphis New Orleans Conference Finals, but
it would be incredibly fun on paper. But those teams
just don't win usually so less unless I will say this,
I mean the one thing those markets obviously are two

(36:02):
of the three smallest markets. However, and this is something
that you talk about sort of the league and its
struggles and why isn't it compelling every night that I
would say is like, yeah, I spent a lot of
time in the last decade kind of talking to what
I love doing is actually one of the more things

(36:22):
fun things to do is not just to talk to
basketball operations people, the gms and the assistant gms and
the scouts and whatever, is you really start talking to
the business side people in the d because they're really smart,
Like the people who kind of run the teams are
really smart, and the owners and the owner's conciliarias and whoever.
And one thing you kind of I've written about this
a couple of times, is like, at the end of
the day, they're just the league succeeds and fails because

(36:45):
it has like transcendent two or three transcendent stars. And
by the way, those stars are Kobe lebron Step, They're
not actually Russell Westbrooker, Katie Less their hearts and I'm
not trying to impute them, which is like those those
people might get you're a ticket package, like yeah, the
house is a little fuller when Oklahoma City was in
town back in those days, or Kevin Duranton Town, but

(37:08):
not like exceedingly so. But the people who really and
I do think that jaw and it's sad. I was
working on a feature story, you know, one of the
things that happens when you leave a career to start
a new one and you you leave NBA reporting as
I you know, I was working with my wonder rol
editor Ross Marrison on a Ja Morant kind of like
is he does what what is it that you have

(37:29):
to have? Right? And Derrick Rose had it in one
of the tragic stories of the NBA and the two
thousand teens was Derek Rose who was positioned to become
literally those one in a generation like literally it's a class.
That is that since MJ retired, is is Kobe stuff?
Like that's it. That's the list, Like these are what
I call the mom test. Right, these are players that

(37:50):
your mom who doesn't even follow week knows and can
pick out of a lineup and knows I may see
them in a magazine. Right and Rose, And it's it's
when you travel the world as you do, like you know,
like the like there's an inexplicable number of Derrick Rose
jerseys on he in developing world countries. When you go
and travel like it's just it's amazing and it still exists. Right,

(38:13):
he was enormous And I think John and I was
working on the story is I think Job, like they're
gonna have to win, Like Memphis has to win to
be that guy. There's a reason it's only Kobe Lebron
step all have won multiple times. Like Jah could be
that guy. And if Job becomes that guy, I don't
think it matters that Memphis, Tennessee only has six hundred

(38:35):
and forty thousand television households. Like if Jack can become
that guy, like it doesn't matter what market you're in,
it just doesn't. I mean, would it be better for
the league There was a New York on his jersey, sure,
but like people will gravitate to the Grizzlies of job
Morant is doing John Morant things in June and lifting
trophies and confettious falling in the FedEx form like it

(38:57):
doesn't matter, And so I would say that's the only
thing is like the league, My old employers probably don't
want a Western Conference. I don't know if this this
year for their their West this year this year New Orleans. Yeah,
but if Zion actually is ever, if Zion becomes Zion
and they go to sixty wins and he is averaging
ten and six whatever the hell like and Jaws doing

(39:19):
job stuff and they're both healthy, Like I actually think
the league might be fine with New Orleans. Well, I
would hope so, because my I want that to happen.
Like I I was thrilled when Yokich went back to
back m v P s and again not to keep
going back to the football. Well, but like Yokich is

(39:39):
boring personality, would like work in a football context, he would,
he'd be he'd be a bigger star because of how
boring and weird he is. Whereas in basketball it's like
my parents maybe know who Nicoleon Kich is. My parents
are like probably a slight step up from casual fan, right,
Like my mom at least tries to keep up with
the stories I'm writing. Like, but you know those fans

(40:02):
should be excited about they're never like they I think
the league would worry of Denver was playing in the finals,
Like and by the way, has no disrespect to the
Denver Nuggets. Like, by the way, you and I can
watch there's nobody enjoy watching more than Nicola yok like like,
but I just think that he does, Like it's it's

(40:22):
watching the little guy in the matrix, which is what
what the experience of watching John Miranda is. It's it's
Zion Williams, And like, I don't understand how that body
can do that. Like Yoki's vision is a is a
beautiful thing and in his audacity to just kind of
do a set shot from three. Yeah, but it's not
it's not going to it's not it's not you know,

(40:46):
it's like, it's not watching the little guy shoot like stuff.
It's not watching Lebron, you know, which essentially is a
proto Zion, right, um Zion with Yoki vision actually right,
like like it's not Kobe you know, self self made
myth and the whole persona craziness And that's a different,

(41:07):
much longer conversation from a different day. But but I um,
but yeah, I mean, I think I think that is
this sort of thing with like Jaw is. I think
I think jaw is so fundamentally important to this in
league right now, and it's a thing nobody's talking about.
Like I don't know, the Tatum. I mean, I guess
if the Celtics win, Tatum maybe becomes one of those
guys there seems to be a slight charisma deficit like canned.

(41:30):
And the other answer might be there'll never be another
one of those guys that the culture globally in the
media landscape doesn't allow for a mom test player anymore.
There'll never be another basketball player, whether it's Luca winning
five championships or Jab winning five championships or the two
of them playing in seven consecutive conference finals. And we

(41:52):
you know that we don't live in a world that
is suspicable to the quote transcendent as lead anymore. That's
Serena and Steph, Lebron and Brady are the last of
a breath that you know, even if somebody like the Mahomes,
who's just God, it's like I don't even like football.

(42:14):
I've kind of been watching kind of clauset chief Sky
because it's like I just because I cover sports for
a living, and I just you know, the same reason.
I'm kind of in back into pro tennis, right, Like
um Alcarez is just like insane and in the in
this Danish kid I watched, beat Yokovic is like like
there's certain things that athletes have, a certain charisma, certain

(42:36):
stage presence called um And I don't know. Maybe the
answer is is no matter how good Jaw is, like,
there's a ceiling because not because of Jaw, not because
of Memphis, but because of media and culture, and there
isn't We don't have Michael Jackson's anymore. We don't have
transcendent cultural stars and of any genre, of any medium,
of any artistic form that allow for full global consumption. Well,

(43:01):
it's kind of shocking that Janice hasn't become that person.
And I know, like other people have talking about this,
but he checks every box. He is. You talk about
the athleticism, the way he plays, the smile, the charisma,
the dad jokes, the story, the it's everything. It's it's
a larger it's if you pitched it to Disney, like

(43:22):
he has a literal Disney movie, so I know, but
like even if it, if you, honest didn't exist and
you pitched it to Disney, they'd be like, this is
a little bit too much, and let's maybe take one
thing away, you know what I mean, Like this is
a little too good to be true, and it's it's
a I don't know if concerns the right word, but
it's it's intriguing to me that he is not like

(43:45):
and I get that he didn't have you know, Sports
Illustrated didn't put him on the cover and call him
the chosen one back in the time when you know,
Sports Illustrated covers resonated a little bit more maybe than
they do now. Um, but yeah, it's it's surprising to
me that he is not even a bigger deal, that
that we're already looking to job that we've kind of
already to an extent skipped over, honest. And I don't

(44:07):
think you're wrong to do that, because but it is
a little surprising that he's not like this international megastar. Yeah,
I agree with And this is one of the reasons
I'm sort of starting to be cynical and cynical, but
I'm skeptical of the idea that there will ever be
a basketball player who does that again, right, like, and
I mean large, I think to me, be honest, I mean,

(44:27):
one could argue, Okay, hey, the last name is a mouthful,
which is which I think is unfair, right, um, And
but maybe there's something to that, maybe, um, but maybe
it's that he doesn't have the sort of valence that
Kobe did. One way or the other. We loved him
or hated him, and in the Laker brand itself was
sort of wrapped up in that obviously being on a

(44:49):
magazine cover when you're seventeen in Lebron's case, like, but
it is one of the reasons I worry. And maybe
it's nothing to worry about. Maybe it's just hey, it's
just it's just not something that exists. Are in the
league will be fine, and there will be hundreds millions
of people that love John Ranthers will be billions of
love Chamber and the way they love Michael Jordan's or
or Kobe or or possibly staff. So I agree with you,

(45:10):
I mean that that is sort of I mean, to me, Janice,
is you know the fact that he is not at
that absolute peak suggests to me that the conditions it's
not Janice, it's the conditions of media and culture. Before
I get you out of here, I did want to
ask because there's a little bit of a newspack to
this UM. Yesterday was December fifte which was the original

(45:32):
opt out date between the n v p A and
the NBA. They've extended that opt out date basically to
give themselves more time to collectively bargain for a new
cb A UM. And it's I said to you on
the phone, and I said, you know, I said this
before either in writing on podcast, But it feels like
every c b A they tried to play whack a mole.

(45:53):
They try to fix a problem, and by quote unquote
fixing a problem, they create a new one, I think.
And the last CBA was like, we're going to do
the Supermax and we're gonna stop this player movement, and
instead we have players like instead of like a one
year are they going to leave window, it's a two
year Are they going to leave window? Because everyone's asking
if they're going to sign the extension or you have
these teams who signed these contracts have become massive albatrosses

(46:16):
and um kind of really affected on a competitive landscape
this year. I thought it was interesting. Um uh, your
friend Brian Windhorst, I think, had a very interesting report
during the finals where it's like some owners are calling
the Warriors win a checkbook championship. They just paid deep
into the tax. I think what the Warriors are doing

(46:37):
is in fact good for the league. All teams should
be cajoled, encouraged, shamed into spending as much money on
these rosters as possible. It's frustrating when they don't, um,
you know. And on the flip side of that, there's
the luxury tax. What I don't like about it is
Atlanta just dumps Kevin Herder this summer and a salary

(46:57):
move where I'm worried is Denver gonna be to pay
to keep everyone if guys keep needing new contracts or
are they gonna, you know, play the luxury tax cards.
So I'm curious, Like you said, I mean, you talk
to people. I know, maybe you haven't been in conversation
with people recently, but do you do you have a
sense of maybe is there a correction coming in the

(47:18):
c b A and what what kind of correction may
there be? See The problem is is that there are
two battlefronts in every cb A negotiation. Right, there's the
league versus the p A, the players, you know, the
players versus the league. But the one and frankly, the
one that was truly the complicating factor in two thousand
eleven wasn't the league versus the p A as much

(47:38):
as it was owner versus owner. Right Like we talk about, oh,
the Warriors are playing, remember the Miami Heat, right Like,
like Mickey Arison, you're barking up the wrong owner. It's
five dollars. Ultimately, along with four other owners, Arison is
one of those who doesn't even approve, almost as a
protest against his fellow owners, is one of the five

(47:59):
that doesn't. Ultimately, you vote for the final settlement with
the players, right, and so, because yeah, the league and
the p A are going to argue about, you know,
where that br I line is and whether it's flexible,
remember the old oh is it really fifty one or
is it fifty point two? And blah blah blah like
that that's gonna happen. They're gonna haggle over certain you know,

(48:22):
sort of mega salaries or whatever and andy. But to me,
I think where it's going to get really sticky is
when they kind of have to. Yes, the Warriors are
are symptomatic. By the way. The Warriors only have that
issue because of the spike in two thousand sixty, right
like like that became Kevin Durant. Remember, we weren't going

(48:43):
to smooth and by way, I was an opponent of smoothing,
and I was wrong, right like, um, they should have
smoothed and um. And so that spike became the means
by which they got Kevin Durant, which got them de'angelo,
which got them Wiggins, and now which got them that
massive bill. Right. But the problem in the league has
is there's a recognition the Milwaukee Bucks lost a ton

(49:08):
of money on route to a NBA championships the Cleveland
Cavaliers in two thousand and sixteen, in the fifth year
of the new um of the new cb A. I
think it wast close to a hundred million dollars on
route to a NBA championship. Is a near mathematical certainty
that if the Memphis Grizzlies build a championship calor team,
which they are in the process of doing around John Moran,
Desmond being and Jaren Jackson and the guys you're talking about,

(49:29):
and that they want to keep that team together. They
will exist in the red for a long time. Right,
Like for a lot for most of the league, there
are two choices like be mediocre and steadily lose a
little bit of money, or be really good and lose
a ton of money. And you ask the Oklahoma City
thunder will will tell you, like, you know, they are
able to squeak out the most modest of games, um,

(49:51):
certain years, right, but it is a virtual impossibility. Um. Now,
one could argue to the Memphis Grizzlies and Milwaukee Bucks
and the Cleveland Cavaliers of the world, like, look, your
asset is gonna eat. Yes, you're absolutely You're going to
incur annual losses in exchange of those lasses. You know,
you will also watch your equity increase multiple because your

(50:13):
asset exists in a purtual, perpetual state of scarcity. Right, Like,
at most two new clubs will be creating in the
next generation. Right, we might have an expansion of two.
So you're gonna lose money all the time and then,
but your equity is going to increase because the value
of the thing you bought for seven million dollars is
going to be one point eight billion or god, judging
from what might happen in Phoenix, two point whatever billion. Um,

(50:34):
so because the world is not making more basketball teams
that they are making more billionaires and and and Saudi
sovereign wealth funds because say nothing of Saudi sing God,
got imagine that market opens up? Right? Did you see that?
Like the Sun's like the latest potential owners It was
like Peter Thiel and like Saudi sovereign wealth funds like
the you know, I just feel like they're really opening

(50:57):
up a weird portal here. Well I mean I mean yes, no,
I mean and by the way, like it's not this
isn't a normative statement about Peter Teal, Like look, I
would love for there to be an openly gay sports owner.
I would like it not to be Peter Teal. Can
we go back to Geffen, we can buy out a
team for his Yeah, so um that is the norm right,

(51:18):
Like like look around I mean the global sport like
like I mean, look at the roster of owners in
the English Premier League, right, very true, Like it's amazing
that the league has been so wonderfully precious about only
allowing hedge fund Americans and tech e's and this cadra
of old dudes like the Simons who still have their

(51:39):
money in real estate and you know, Steve Balmer and
like like it is kind of like quaint. I mean,
the truth is is if open to the full world,
there would be I mean, I'm sure there'll be a
Quatari or two and and and lord knows from that
part of the world and um or whatever. But but
I do think that, like like I do think that

(52:00):
watching the owner versus owner discontent, most of us are
going to be focused on the player versus own and
rather though that that's not nothing. I mean, that is
ultimately what's could But it is the owner versus owner
and the level of tolerance um by a group of
owners who buying large. This isn't their first business anymore.

(52:22):
So what's good will happen is they'll allow the league
to sort of They're not going to be involved in
the minutia early on, but eventually you're going to get
to these revenue sharing things because as the percentage of
expenditure that involves player salary, the harder and harder it
becomes to the New Orleans is and the Memphises and um,
you know at this point. Now, by the way, I

(52:42):
do think it's it's a misnomer to always say small market,
big owner. Like there is a lot of kind of
like say this about the Bus family, and I've been
extremely critical of their ownership. Um to me, they have
always been I think a good I think a good
faith to Thison's in sort of making sure that what's
good for the media and NBA team is good for

(53:03):
the Lakers and it's good for the league. Right. But
I do think watching those that conversation is going to
be important because it is just like again, there isn't
enough revenue share to make team's hole at a time
when by the way, let's talk about local TV contracts
rang Yeah, like if there, I don't know what happened

(53:25):
in Portland. They has a four year deal with Roots
Sports and it's a new platform. But I damn well, no,
it's not that profitable. Um, because we're probably everybody. Look,
Steve Balmber wanted to do over the top, Um, yeah,
deal and realizing when you tell, you know in bomberable
is the verse to say like, hey, it's what I
wanted to do, It's what I think if you were
starting from scratch, we should do and it is completely

(53:47):
mathematically and financially untenable right now. Um, so I do
think that is going to be like like like the
Milwaukee Bucks, the Evelan Kevin, like, what do we do?
Like we don't have the capacity to me, like, are
they willing to just say, okay, our equity goes up

(54:08):
and if we need to sell, we'll sell and we're
not gonna be sentimental about this, But are you willing
to incur huge losses every year to be to keep
big teams together in the way that the Warriors have?
I don't I'm with you on the Warriors, like I
think that's how the league should work. You mean, basically
have a team that maximizes its revenue in its building. Um,

(54:29):
understands how to do that. By the way, they have
not a great local TV deal. Um, And I'm with you,
like I want I don't want a hard cap, which
is by the way, going to be the red line
right um, because I don't want. I don't like that.
The only thing I don't like about the NFL my
understanding is like you can't keep teams to get right,
Like I don't want someone have to sacrifice. I don't
want Drew Holiday to have to get pass before anyway,

(54:51):
you know, Like I think it's bad for the league,
especially the problems we talk about. But but I do
also think that there's great incentive right now to get
a deal done because think about it, like you talked
about it new media deal, right, Like, what does I
think it's fair to say that any media company, whether

(55:12):
they are the traditional bidders like Turner and my former employer, UM,
whether they are the streamers getting in on the package,
I think it's fair to say that labor peace is
the most important. They're one of the most important variables
and sort of their competence to bid. And I think
that I don't think there's gonna be a huge appetite

(55:35):
right now for stoppage. That said, again, it depends on
how intransigent certain owners are willing to be. And I
actually don't even want to use in transigent as ab
jarative because like, like I think, I think some of
these markets have every right to be in transigent. And
then on the other hand, I'm a labor guy, so like,
I like there's a part of me that says, fuck it,
like there should be no salary. There should be no

(55:57):
because like you know, I think that professionals would be
able to to command with a lebron should be getting right,
I mean to me, it would be like I just nationalized,
I would collective as the whole league. And I think that, like,
you know, obviously though the Knicks and Lakers will have
something to say about, right, like, like it would be
great that we were in a world where like there

(56:20):
was one big pool of money television revenue, gate revenue
was collectivised, and you know, but obviously the Lakers in
Nick's arca over that north should they? Right? Like? So
it is weird because I have all these as just
an observer and an analyst and someone who has gotten
to know some of these poses small market teams. But
it's an appreciation like you do for like, hey, you
know what dynasties are good? Like I'm not. Yeah, by

(56:45):
the way, the Los Angeles Lakers being good is good, um,
as much as I enjoy sometimes their failure um and
get to kind of you know, have some showden freud
about their fury as an organization, right, Like the truth
of the matter is, if I'm Adam Silver, like, it's
good if the Los Angeles Lakers are good. It's the
old David Stern, right, who's my ideal final the Lakers Lakers.
So I get pulled in all these different directions because

(57:06):
I have great like I see the great work being
done at places like Milwaukee as an organization and Memphis
as an organization, and like, I had much admiration for
those teams, and also like you like you get to
go around the league, like the more time you spend
in the smaller markets, like the greater appreciation. Absolutely when
you go to Salt Lake, like like it's almost in

(57:28):
that city and that team in Memphis and it's just
a different live It's just kind of cool, and I
want them to succeed and I think it's good. On
the other hand, I also am a realist, and um,
I don't know what you do about the fact that
they are only six. Maybe there is part of me
that's like, what the hell is the League doing in
a market like Memphis in the world is again it's
a different part of me, but I, um, that's a

(57:50):
different day. But I kind of have great sympathy for
those markets. On the same time, though, is I I
don't have sympathy for is just sort of artificially suppressing
players out res relative to market value. Like I don't
have a lot of patients for that, Like I'm a
labor guy first and foremost, So I don't know. Man,
it's a big mess. But I would say my thing
is my storylines. Don't just watch player player association versus

(58:13):
league slash owners, watch owner versus owners because that's where
it got really sticky in two thousand and eleven. And
I think that the extent it does get sticky, I
think that's where it's going to get sticky. I'm with you.
My nuclear hot take, by the way, is that players
should vote on contracting two teams. But that's a different podcast.
I want to. I want to. It's a fun one. Listen.
We have very little time left, but I want to

(58:34):
give you the platform. You know, you could take this
in a direction you want. You can let people know,
you don't let people know. But I I read it
is asking what happened to Kevin Arnovits what is he
up to? And I just I just if you if
you want to share, you can share. If you don't,
you don't have to. But yeah, no, no, I mean
you see it as concise as possible. Um, I had
the greatest job in world report teen years. I got

(58:56):
to cover the NBA. Thanks to the ability of Henry
Abbott and Royce web two Cohn ESPN management into hiring
some guy from public radio who had never come up
through a news room in sports. UM I got to
fourteen years cover the league for ESPN. UM, running around
the country, writing, reporting, meeting people. UM, it's fantastic, Like

(59:20):
it was the greatest job in the world. UM I am.
I'm so gratefully the opportunity. Uh, it was amazing. UM.
I am somebody who gets professional wander lust. And UM
that happened in my previous career I got was in
Paul the radio of where I was like I was
in politics in the beginning of my life and hated that. UM.
And so I don't think I'm someone who can stay
in any job for longer than like fourteen or fifteen years,
which was pretty much the limit, which was this job.

(59:43):
And I've I've had an itche I wanted to scratch,
which is I've always loved UM. I've always loved the
idea of screenwriting and always something I thought, Hey, if
I wasn't doing this, made this NBA thing. I'd love
to do that, and um, I I kind of drinking
COVID shutdown. I took a little gander, and I was
very fortunate. Um I had a screenplay that was bought
by a studio and then I had a second one,

(01:00:05):
and um it was one of those things where, UM,
I just wanted to kind of see it through, like
what would happen if I did this full time? Right?
Um And also at the time where I think, like I,
I God, I love the NBA and I loved working
for ESPN covering the NBA, but I think it was
just kind of time. It's uh, you know, I want

(01:00:27):
to kind of you know, leave in my own terms
that you know, you know, leave the party before you know,
kind of it dies down. And and um, so I'm
doing this other thing and I'm trying to make a
go of it, and um I've had some good early success.
It is a really capricious industry and we'll see. But

(01:00:49):
I'm having a blast and it's just kind of fun
to be at the beginning of something which I had,
Like I have the same feeling I had like those
first few years and you know, this like covering the league,
your first few years, right, Like, you know, and you're
getting to meet people, and you're finally having the conversations
the people you hope to have conversations with, and people
are trusting you with information, and you're getting better at
your craft, you know, that feeling where you're looking like, oh,

(01:01:11):
my future story is better than it would have been
three years ago, getting my new skills and and the
good editing I'm getting or whatever it is. And um,
I'm having a blast because I'm not young. Um having
that experience one last time, Like I don't know how
many times in your life you get to have the
experience of being like really psyched at the beginning of
a career, right, Like it's just it's it's something you

(01:01:34):
realize once you leave behind your fourteen years and like
I was, you know, that's that honeymoon is over, and
that honeymoon is great, and you know it last a
few years. So I'm that's what I'm doing in the
in the screenwriting world, and you know, I have a
TV pilot and the feature and lord knows will ever
make it a screen because like it's just a weird
industry and I'm but I'm having a great time with it. Um,

(01:01:57):
but that's that's what I'm doing. I just kind of
after fourteen years, you know, I think I think I
beat stein By Mark Stein by like one or two months.
I think I am the longest tenure not don't know
that any NBA contributor whose primary function was writing, not
like the TV folks. Um, I think I have the
at fourteen years and two months, I think I have.

(01:02:18):
I think I beat Stein by one month, right, Like
I think I am the longest ever tenured writer for
ESPN n B A. Um, I think now somebody will
pass me. Brian Windhorses is gonna pass me in a
couple of years. But um, so it's just like it
was just that that's kind of what I'm doing. That's
that's what I'm doing. And I'm in Los Angeles just

(01:02:39):
doing the screenwriter thing. It's a it's a wonderful, terrible, awful,
amazing fun cliche. Well, there he is now the reddit.
The reddit thread can be answered. Um we can throw
a link to this in here. Um, we finally answered
the question. Kevin Arnovitz, thank you so much for joining
Open Floor. Hopefully I'll see you soon. We can catch

(01:02:59):
a screening of the menu sometime. Thank you so much
for joining the show Man. I really appreciate it. You
got it. Whoa, whoa what what