Several years ago, Appalachian true crime podcaster Emily Nestor created the podcast Mile Marker 181, investigating the mysterious death of local Jaleayah Davis.
The podcast attracted millions of listeners, but Emily was confronted with a turn in the story - and faced telling her listeners that there may not be any murder or crime, at all.
Emily’s story is the basis for a new documentary, Citizen Sleuth, which is screening as part of this year's DocEdge festival.
Director Chris Kasick and Emily Nestor herself examined the ethical questions raised by true crime podcasts.
"A lot of people go into true crime, as content creators, with this idea of creating more content. And I think mine was a little bit backwards - and there are other people like that, where they really have a passion case, and it's not about making the content, it's about getting more eyes on the case."
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b SO.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
A few years ago, Emily Nestor was a true crime
podcaster from the Appalachia region in the US, and she
created a podcast called Mile Marker one eight one, investigating
the mysterious death of a local, Julia Davis. The podcast
was a hit with a growing audience in the millions,
but then things started to go wrong. Despite her best intentions,
(00:35):
Emily was confronted with a new truth, a turn in
the story, and faced telling listeners that there may not
be a murder or crime at all. Emily's story is
the basis for a new documentary. It's called Citizen Sleuth.
It is screening as part of this year's doc Edge Festival,
and director of Citizen Sleuth Chris Cassock and Emily Nestor
(00:55):
herself join me now. Good morning to the TOVIU.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
So.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Things didn't turn out how either of you anticipated in
your endeavor, but in the process you've brought some really
interesting ethical questions to light regarding true crime podcasts, which
we all love. Maybe we could start with you and
your story, Emily tell me how did you become a
true crime podcaster?
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Well, so, this case was always in the back of
my mind because this happened in my hometown and it
was well known within the community that this was sort of,
you know, a questionable outcome. A lot of the community
members believe to this day that this was a murder.
(01:42):
So it wasn't that I sought out being a true
crime podcaster. I just had always had a lot of
questions about that case.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Why do you think we love true crime podcasts so much, Jimillie.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Well, I have a lot of opinions on that these days,
but I think especially the demographic being white women, I
think that this is kind of like a safe space
for us to play with mortality and you know, our
own mortality and death and violence. And I've thought about
(02:18):
it a lot in the last year. You know, little
boys often like play war, they play cowboys and Indians,
you know, they play all these things that they kind
of get to play with that concept of violence. But
I don't think that that's always the case for little girls.
I think a lot of adult women find themselves consuming
(02:39):
true crime in that same like curious manner.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Emily, when you started telling this story through watching Chris's documentary,
I absolutely felt your heart was in the right place,
that your intentions were to genuinely find the truth and
justice for Julia.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Right.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Yeah, you know, no good deed goes unpunished. I think
it's obviously. I think, you know, my heart is in
the right place. And I reflect on my experience in
true crime sometimes and understand why it went so horribly wrong,
because a lot of people go into true crime, you know,
(03:19):
as content creators, with this idea of creating content, and
I think mine was a little bit backwards, and there
are other people like that where they really have a
passion case and it's not about making the content. It's
about getting more eyes on the case. It's about answering
questions that still exist. It just, you know, I was
(03:44):
very naive. Fortunately I've lost a bit of that since then,
But yeah, I think that it just it's kind of
one of those things for you know, it's a hard
lesson to learn not to like meddle in other people's affairs,
and especially when it involves the death of someone.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Chris, did you feel that way as well when you
meet Emily?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I met Emily five six years ago. I started listening
to her podcast. Twenty eighteen, Emily was in season one
and it was one of these things of light lightning
in a bottle where her mile marker won eighty one.
Emily's podcast shot up the iTunes charts. Millions of people
were listening. She was being promoted on some of the
(04:32):
biggest true crime podcasts. And when I had met Emily
in twenty nineteen, it was one of these characters. I
talk about you as a character, Emily, and I know
you're a real person, but it was one of these
She was on a mission and she was passionate about it.
It was a community story, and you know her podcast
and the story and what the community thinks. It raises
(04:55):
all of these questions about miscarriages of justice, murder, nepotism, racism.
It was a perfect story for true crime. And as
we started filming with Emily and twenty nineteen, and as
she started investigating it, she started hitting dead ends and
where her investigation was going. It wasn't leading to what
the family of the victim was saying, it wasn't leading
(05:17):
to what the community was saying. And suddenly we were
in a situation where Emily was faced with the truth
of what happened with Julia and after a thorough investigation
that she had done through. But how you tell that
to Julia's family, how you tell that to a true
crime audience. That was something that cut me off guard
(05:39):
of the dynamics of true crime and what an audience wants.
And when you're doing a real time investigation, you have
real time feedback. And Emily started getting harassed online by
listeners and community members who wanted her to go deeper
into this investigation and say things that weren't happening and
(05:59):
to make leaps that weren't happening. And that ethical question
was happening in real time with our film Citizen Salute.
And I give Emily a lot of credit for allowing
me and the filmmakers to film her through this very
vulnerable process. And we didn't know exactly where this was headed.
And it was a very dramatic conclusion in the ending
(06:20):
where you see it in the film and it play out,
and it's something that we couldn't have recreated. It was
happening in front of us. And those are the best
stories where you follow a journey and it goes And
I give Emily a lot of credit for allowing us
to film that journey.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
You're so right, Chris, because I'm sure as a documentary
maker there are there are times when you start projects
and then you kind of go, actually, there isn't there
isn't the act that we need to tell a story
or what we need to follow this through, and that
sort of unexpected twist. I suppose in following Emily must
(06:56):
have did it sort of change obviously changed what you
thought the film was going to be.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, And I mean there is a scene with the
sheriff where Emily does to interview Sheriff Stevens of Wood
County and he walks out of the interview. He didn't
like the tough questions and he says to me and
to Emily, you know you've lost the valuable resource. And
in a small county like that, the sheriff wields a
lot of power. I thought it was over, like I
(07:23):
thought that we were just going to go home and
that there wasn't any more to do. But Emily kept pushing.
And then that's to Emily's credit, I didn't.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Have the same level of faith in sheriff's teams that.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Christin, who has has had to resign from multiple sexual
assault allegations, But I didn't, you know, put as much
faith in him as Kristen.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I thought it was over and that this then it
started becoming how does Emily reveal us to the family?
How does Emily reveal us to the audience? But that
wasn't like a pressure cooker in the moment. It was
to Emily, it was how do I get out of
the city situation. I have a commitment for a podcast,
I have an audience, I have a very active online
(08:13):
community that's coming at her. How do you get out
of that? And for me as a filmmaker, I'm filming
this in real time. But this was difficult because nobody
wants these worst moments film. But in a way I
felt in it together. But the pressure was on Emily
because she was in front of the camera and she
was in front of the podcast. But I was you know,
(08:34):
in the process, you have faith that the story will
come through and that this, you know, the message of
the film is larger. But in the moments of doing that,
that was not clear. And that wasn't clear until almost
like until we premiered at South By Southwest in twenty
twenty three, when we saw the movie played out in
real time, and it's like, Okay, I think these dots connect.
(08:57):
I think the audience is taking away like going into
a project like this, you don't think, like we're gonna
do a film about the ethics of the true crime genre.
That wasn't real when we started this. It was Emily
for sure when she started it is we're going to
solve a murder. And when that changes, Like that's the
difference in ethics of like journalism and like people trying
(09:17):
to tell real stories, is you don't go in with
a preconceived notion of where this ends up. And so
we went on the journey and that's a very painful
process to not know what you're filming now know where
her next episode is going to be and when she's
doing it, and her audience is demanding real episodes, and
it just turned into this high pressure path situation that
played out over years live in front of audiences, and
(09:41):
it turned into the film Citizen Sleuth. And I think
we're both proud of the journey.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, thank you Emily for letting Chris continue to follow you,
because I can imagine this was really hard and we
watch you try to deal with that situation that difficult
line between wanting to do the right thing and putting
things right. But as Chris mentioned, you've become a podcast sensation.
Is this pressure on you from your audience to keep
providing these entertaining episod How did you deal.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
With that.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Poorly? No, it was it wasn't so much I think
for me about disappointing listeners that were that had found
the podcast through other true crime podcasts and were involved
in that community. I think the pressure for me was
more disappointing my local community because this started very much
(10:30):
as a local podcast, and you know, I was living
an hour down the road in West Virginia when I
started the podcast, and during the process of that, I
actually moved back into the area of my hometown. So
I was very much local, and the bulk of listeners
came from my own area, and I knew, you know,
(10:51):
I was going to go from hometown hero to really
someone that they would shun out of the community. And
I actually moved out of my area after ending the podcast.
There was a lot of harassment, but I wasn't so
much worried, you know, oh, what will people in true
crime think of me? For me at a local it
(11:12):
was more like, is my safety going to be at risk?
And I knew, having dealt with the family, that there
was going to be a large level of harassment, and
I was, you know, kind of just anticipating the worst.
And I actually think it's fair to say, you know,
(11:32):
I knew it was going to be bad, but I
actually underestimated how bad that would get.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Emily, what did you learn about people making this podcast?
How easy is it to get this simple truth?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
Well, I think you have to first, you know, you
have to actually want to hear it. And I think
at one point in the dock, you know, a lot
of people think they want the truth, but they can't
handle it when it comes to victims or decedents families,
there is a level of denial and that's one of
the stages of grief. And I think, you know, you
(12:10):
can sort of expect a level of denial and grappling
with the truth from families, But what I didn't expect
from true crime consumers was and this is always a
question I asked myself, is you know, why do people
want this to be a homicide? Why do people prefer
that there was a miscarriage of justice, that there was
(12:32):
a cover up that there is someone who's been killed
and no justice brought. Why is that an easier truth
for them to accept rather than the truth about that situation,
which is a really ugly one and it's very tragic,
but they they somehow prefer the sensational story. Another thing
(12:54):
I learned about people is just the power of projection,
and I think that that's I've doubled down on that,
having experienced, you know, screenings of the documentary and Q
and a's. After the documentary, I had somebody reach out
to me recently on social media with a lot of projections,
and it's you know, when people consume true crime or
(13:15):
this documentary, they're going to just make assumptions about other
people's character. And I know that that happened to the
people that were accused of murder for over a decade
as well. So it's interesting to see what people project
from their own, you know, internal life on to innocent people.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I was going to ask you, you know, if people do
enjoy listening to true crime podcasts, what should they actually
be asking themselves before listening to it or getting addicted
to a podcast? Yeah, what would your advice be to
lovers of true crime podcasts?
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Well, I don't consume any true crime anymore, and I
haven't for years, because once you see how the community behaves,
how content is made, you know, there are people in
true crime that don't even use their real name, you know,
and they're acting in sort of a position of being
a journalist. I don't know that there's any integrity in
(14:14):
using a pseudonym when you're claiming to, you know, be
telling truths or be a reporter of some sort. I
think the biggest question that true crime consumers should ask
themselves is, you know, there's this big conversation that's been
happening for about two years. It became very, very trendy
(14:36):
for content creators and true crime to start discussing ethics
in true crime. And I've watched from a safe distance
as they do that, and I think the bigger question
they need to ask is is true crime ethical? Because
I don't think there's necessarily any harm in consuming true crime.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
But we'd be joking, you know, we'd.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Be kidding ourselves if we could say that true crime
as a genre is in inherently like, you know, that
it can be ethical. I think it's inherently.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Not.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
You know, you're consuming stories about people's violent assaults, rapes, murders,
the worst things that happen to people, and you know,
we're doing it passively while we fold our laundry or
you know, drink a glass of wine after work, while
we you know, draw do a road trip, and you know,
not that there's any harm, but we need to be
(15:34):
a bit more self aware. You know, you're you're joking
if you believe that there's a difference between ethical and
you know, unethical true crime.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I know it took a lot of courage for you
to put things right. So now how does it feel
to if this documents she released around the world and
you're having to recapt the story with people like me regally?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
You know, honestly, I ten minutes before I hopped on,
I was like, oh, this is you know I have.
I had a friend that was well known for really
large case and true crime, and we always talked about, oh,
this is the thing we'll be known for is always
the same case. And yeah, there was also a lot
(16:18):
of stuff going out in my personal life during that
time period that was really painful, some traumatic experiences as well.
So I've seen the documentary three times. I have no
interest in watching it again because I'm reliving a lot
of other things and I'm still very much, you know,
sort of a I joke that I'm a true crime pariah.
(16:39):
Someone anonymously called me that once on Reddit, and I
kind of have adopted that proudly because it's not a
genre that I care if they if they like me
or not. In fact, it's probably better if they don't.
It might say something about my ethics. But yeah, it's
it's painful every time.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I can't thank you both enough then for taking
that time to do that. I do really appreciate it.
You made an incredible team, and I think you've You've
made us well just think twice about the genre. So
I really appreciate that. Thank you so much both for
your time.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Citizens Sleuth is screening as part of the doc Eage
Festival this week. For more information, doc Edge dot MZ.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b SO.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
A few years ago, Emily Nestor was a true crime
podcaster from the Appalachia region in the US, and she
created a podcast called Mile Marker one eight one, investigating
the mysterious death of a local, Julia Davis. The podcast
was a hit with a growing audience in the millions,
but then things started to go wrong. Despite her best intentions,
(00:35):
Emily was confronted with a new truth, a turn in
the story, and faced telling listeners that there may not
be a murder or crime at all. Emily's story is
the basis for a new documentary. It's called Citizen Sleuth.
It is screening as part of this year's doc Edge Festival,
and director of Citizen Sleuth Chris Cassock and Emily Nestor
(00:55):
herself join me now. Good morning to the TOVIU.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
So.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Things didn't turn out how either of you anticipated in
your endeavor, but in the process you've brought some really
interesting ethical questions to light regarding true crime podcasts, which
we all love. Maybe we could start with you and
your story, Emily tell me how did you become a
true crime podcaster?
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Well, so, this case was always in the back of
my mind because this happened in my hometown and it
was well known within the community that this was sort of,
you know, a questionable outcome. A lot of the community
members believe to this day that this was a murder.
(01:42):
So it wasn't that I sought out being a true
crime podcaster. I just had always had a lot of
questions about that case.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Why do you think we love true crime podcasts so much, Jimillie.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Well, I have a lot of opinions on that these days,
but I think especially the demographic being white women, I
think that this is kind of like a safe space
for us to play with mortality and you know, our
own mortality and death and violence. And I've thought about
(02:18):
it a lot in the last year. You know, little
boys often like play war, they play cowboys and Indians,
you know, they play all these things that they kind
of get to play with that concept of violence. But
I don't think that that's always the case for little girls.
I think a lot of adult women find themselves consuming
(02:39):
true crime in that same like curious manner.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Emily, when you started telling this story through watching Chris's documentary,
I absolutely felt your heart was in the right place,
that your intentions were to genuinely find the truth and
justice for Julia.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Right.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Yeah, you know, no good deed goes unpunished. I think
it's obviously. I think, you know, my heart is in
the right place. And I reflect on my experience in
true crime sometimes and understand why it went so horribly wrong,
because a lot of people go into true crime, you know,
(03:19):
as content creators, with this idea of creating content, and
I think mine was a little bit backwards, and there
are other people like that where they really have a
passion case and it's not about making the content. It's
about getting more eyes on the case. It's about answering
questions that still exist. It just, you know, I was
(03:44):
very naive. Fortunately I've lost a bit of that since then,
But yeah, I think that it just it's kind of
one of those things for you know, it's a hard
lesson to learn not to like meddle in other people's affairs,
and especially when it involves the death of someone.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Chris, did you feel that way as well when you
meet Emily?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I met Emily five six years ago. I started listening
to her podcast. Twenty eighteen, Emily was in season one
and it was one of these things of light lightning
in a bottle where her mile marker won eighty one.
Emily's podcast shot up the iTunes charts. Millions of people
were listening. She was being promoted on some of the
(04:32):
biggest true crime podcasts. And when I had met Emily
in twenty nineteen, it was one of these characters. I
talk about you as a character, Emily, and I know
you're a real person, but it was one of these
She was on a mission and she was passionate about it.
It was a community story, and you know her podcast
and the story and what the community thinks. It raises
(04:55):
all of these questions about miscarriages of justice, murder, nepotism, racism.
It was a perfect story for true crime. And as
we started filming with Emily and twenty nineteen, and as
she started investigating it, she started hitting dead ends and
where her investigation was going. It wasn't leading to what
the family of the victim was saying, it wasn't leading
(05:17):
to what the community was saying. And suddenly we were
in a situation where Emily was faced with the truth
of what happened with Julia and after a thorough investigation
that she had done through. But how you tell that
to Julia's family, how you tell that to a true
crime audience. That was something that cut me off guard
(05:39):
of the dynamics of true crime and what an audience wants.
And when you're doing a real time investigation, you have
real time feedback. And Emily started getting harassed online by
listeners and community members who wanted her to go deeper
into this investigation and say things that weren't happening and
(05:59):
to make leaps that weren't happening. And that ethical question
was happening in real time with our film Citizen Salute.
And I give Emily a lot of credit for allowing
me and the filmmakers to film her through this very
vulnerable process. And we didn't know exactly where this was headed.
And it was a very dramatic conclusion in the ending
(06:20):
where you see it in the film and it play out,
and it's something that we couldn't have recreated. It was
happening in front of us. And those are the best
stories where you follow a journey and it goes And
I give Emily a lot of credit for allowing us
to film that journey.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
You're so right, Chris, because I'm sure as a documentary
maker there are there are times when you start projects
and then you kind of go, actually, there isn't there
isn't the act that we need to tell a story
or what we need to follow this through, and that
sort of unexpected twist. I suppose in following Emily must
(06:56):
have did it sort of change obviously changed what you
thought the film was going to be.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, And I mean there is a scene with the
sheriff where Emily does to interview Sheriff Stevens of Wood
County and he walks out of the interview. He didn't
like the tough questions and he says to me and
to Emily, you know you've lost the valuable resource. And
in a small county like that, the sheriff wields a
lot of power. I thought it was over, like I
(07:23):
thought that we were just going to go home and
that there wasn't any more to do. But Emily kept pushing.
And then that's to Emily's credit, I didn't.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Have the same level of faith in sheriff's teams that.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Christin, who has has had to resign from multiple sexual
assault allegations, But I didn't, you know, put as much
faith in him as Kristen.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I thought it was over and that this then it
started becoming how does Emily reveal us to the family?
How does Emily reveal us to the audience? But that
wasn't like a pressure cooker in the moment. It was
to Emily, it was how do I get out of
the city situation. I have a commitment for a podcast,
I have an audience, I have a very active online
(08:13):
community that's coming at her. How do you get out
of that? And for me as a filmmaker, I'm filming
this in real time. But this was difficult because nobody
wants these worst moments film. But in a way I
felt in it together. But the pressure was on Emily
because she was in front of the camera and she
was in front of the podcast. But I was you know,
(08:34):
in the process, you have faith that the story will
come through and that this, you know, the message of
the film is larger. But in the moments of doing that,
that was not clear. And that wasn't clear until almost
like until we premiered at South By Southwest in twenty
twenty three, when we saw the movie played out in
real time, and it's like, Okay, I think these dots connect.
(08:57):
I think the audience is taking away like going into
a project like this, you don't think, like we're gonna
do a film about the ethics of the true crime genre.
That wasn't real when we started this. It was Emily
for sure when she started it is we're going to
solve a murder. And when that changes, Like that's the
difference in ethics of like journalism and like people trying
(09:17):
to tell real stories, is you don't go in with
a preconceived notion of where this ends up. And so
we went on the journey and that's a very painful
process to not know what you're filming now know where
her next episode is going to be and when she's
doing it, and her audience is demanding real episodes, and
it just turned into this high pressure path situation that
played out over years live in front of audiences, and
(09:41):
it turned into the film Citizen Sleuth. And I think
we're both proud of the journey.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, thank you Emily for letting Chris continue to follow you,
because I can imagine this was really hard and we
watch you try to deal with that situation that difficult
line between wanting to do the right thing and putting
things right. But as Chris mentioned, you've become a podcast sensation.
Is this pressure on you from your audience to keep
providing these entertaining episod How did you deal.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
With that.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Poorly? No, it was it wasn't so much I think
for me about disappointing listeners that were that had found
the podcast through other true crime podcasts and were involved
in that community. I think the pressure for me was
more disappointing my local community because this started very much
(10:30):
as a local podcast, and you know, I was living
an hour down the road in West Virginia when I
started the podcast, and during the process of that, I
actually moved back into the area of my hometown. So
I was very much local, and the bulk of listeners
came from my own area, and I knew, you know,
(10:51):
I was going to go from hometown hero to really
someone that they would shun out of the community. And
I actually moved out of my area after ending the podcast.
There was a lot of harassment, but I wasn't so
much worried, you know, oh, what will people in true
crime think of me? For me at a local it
(11:12):
was more like, is my safety going to be at risk?
And I knew, having dealt with the family, that there
was going to be a large level of harassment, and
I was, you know, kind of just anticipating the worst.
And I actually think it's fair to say, you know,
(11:32):
I knew it was going to be bad, but I
actually underestimated how bad that would get.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Emily, what did you learn about people making this podcast?
How easy is it to get this simple truth?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
Well, I think you have to first, you know, you
have to actually want to hear it. And I think
at one point in the dock, you know, a lot
of people think they want the truth, but they can't
handle it when it comes to victims or decedents families,
there is a level of denial and that's one of
the stages of grief. And I think, you know, you
(12:10):
can sort of expect a level of denial and grappling
with the truth from families, But what I didn't expect
from true crime consumers was and this is always a
question I asked myself, is you know, why do people
want this to be a homicide? Why do people prefer
that there was a miscarriage of justice, that there was
(12:32):
a cover up that there is someone who's been killed
and no justice brought. Why is that an easier truth
for them to accept rather than the truth about that situation,
which is a really ugly one and it's very tragic,
but they they somehow prefer the sensational story. Another thing
(12:54):
I learned about people is just the power of projection,
and I think that that's I've doubled down on that,
having experienced, you know, screenings of the documentary and Q
and a's. After the documentary, I had somebody reach out
to me recently on social media with a lot of projections,
and it's you know, when people consume true crime or
(13:15):
this documentary, they're going to just make assumptions about other
people's character. And I know that that happened to the
people that were accused of murder for over a decade
as well. So it's interesting to see what people project
from their own, you know, internal life on to innocent people.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I was going to ask you, you know, if people do
enjoy listening to true crime podcasts, what should they actually
be asking themselves before listening to it or getting addicted
to a podcast? Yeah, what would your advice be to
lovers of true crime podcasts?
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Well, I don't consume any true crime anymore, and I
haven't for years, because once you see how the community behaves,
how content is made, you know, there are people in
true crime that don't even use their real name, you know,
and they're acting in sort of a position of being
a journalist. I don't know that there's any integrity in
(14:14):
using a pseudonym when you're claiming to, you know, be
telling truths or be a reporter of some sort. I
think the biggest question that true crime consumers should ask
themselves is, you know, there's this big conversation that's been
happening for about two years. It became very, very trendy
(14:36):
for content creators and true crime to start discussing ethics
in true crime. And I've watched from a safe distance
as they do that, and I think the bigger question
they need to ask is is true crime ethical? Because
I don't think there's necessarily any harm in consuming true crime.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
But we'd be joking, you know, we'd.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Be kidding ourselves if we could say that true crime
as a genre is in inherently like, you know, that
it can be ethical. I think it's inherently.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Not.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
You know, you're consuming stories about people's violent assaults, rapes, murders,
the worst things that happen to people, and you know,
we're doing it passively while we fold our laundry or
you know, drink a glass of wine after work, while
we you know, draw do a road trip, and you know,
not that there's any harm, but we need to be
(15:34):
a bit more self aware. You know, you're you're joking
if you believe that there's a difference between ethical and
you know, unethical true crime.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I know it took a lot of courage for you
to put things right. So now how does it feel
to if this documents she released around the world and
you're having to recapt the story with people like me regally?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
You know, honestly, I ten minutes before I hopped on,
I was like, oh, this is you know I have.
I had a friend that was well known for really
large case and true crime, and we always talked about, oh,
this is the thing we'll be known for is always
the same case. And yeah, there was also a lot
(16:18):
of stuff going out in my personal life during that
time period that was really painful, some traumatic experiences as well.
So I've seen the documentary three times. I have no
interest in watching it again because I'm reliving a lot
of other things and I'm still very much, you know,
sort of a I joke that I'm a true crime pariah.
(16:39):
Someone anonymously called me that once on Reddit, and I
kind of have adopted that proudly because it's not a
genre that I care if they if they like me
or not. In fact, it's probably better if they don't.
It might say something about my ethics. But yeah, it's
it's painful every time.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I can't thank you both enough then for taking
that time to do that. I do really appreciate it.
You made an incredible team, and I think you've You've
made us well just think twice about the genre. So
I really appreciate that. Thank you so much both for
your time.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Citizens Sleuth is screening as part of the doc Eage
Festival this week. For more information, doc Edge dot MZ.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.