March 21, 2022 • 51 mins
'A Conversation With' is our Zing Learning podcast where we speak to real people doing incredible things in their careers, for other people or the world of inclusion.
We will be sharing the ways in which they are enhancing awareness around important topics and get advice and suggestions from our experts in how to enhance inclusion, embed belonging and just generally make the world a better place.
This fortnight we have been speaking with our good friend and incredible human being Ash Bartholomew about what it’s like to be Trans in the world of tech and how his organisation has supported him through his transition - take 60 minutes off, kick back and enjoy!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Welcome to our first ever Zing Learning podcast
titled A Conversation with a podcast where we
get together with inspiring individuals once a fortnight
to chat about what they're doing in their
careers and to explore conversations around enhancing equality,
diversity, inclusion and belonging for everyone.
(00:27):
Each fortnight, we will dive into a key
topic, talk about things that interest us, and
ask for some advice and top tips to
create inclusive workspaces for all types of people.
In our first podcast of Series One,
we are very excited to be joined
by the incredible human that is Ashbatholynew.
(00:48):
We're going to discuss his transition
journey, how his organization supports him.
Plus he will be sharing advice and
suggestions to help enhance inclusion and embed
belonging for other business leaders.
So grab a cup, air, kick back and enjoy the podcast.
(01:10):
Hey Ash, we have been friends for a long time.
We've been on holidays together, long live military
in Portugal, and the many fun times that
we have had are countless, of course.
But actually during our friendship, you have
gone through lots of really great things.
You've started a family, you've made impressive moves
(01:32):
in your career, and also you have transitioned.
So I kind of wanted to talk to you
today a little bit about all of those things.
And actually I think if we kind of get started
with your career in general, that would be really interesting.
So do you want to tell us a little
bit about what you do and your experience? Yeah, sure.
So I'm a product manager now, but I came into
(01:54):
the creative industry through design, so I've been in product
for about five years, and then before that I was
a designer for about ten years and I kind of
found my way into product, kind of, I suppose starting
off with visual design and then wanting to get a
bit more into the user experience because I like the
idea of getting underneath the behaviors of people and then
(02:18):
from there moving more into product because I get to
make lots of decisions, I guess.
But yeah, and I get to do all of
the things I enjoyed doing, talking to users and
trying to create products that they want to use
and that are successful for my clients. Yeah.
(02:38):
And it's really funny because I've known you for a
really long time, and it's only really been recently that
I've understood why I say understood your job.
I probably still don't really understand your job
to really get to grips with it.
And obviously I only found out recently that
you got to work on the Joe Wicks
app, which obviously everybody probably knows about.
So that's very cool.
(02:59):
I already know some of the other really big kind
of apps that you've worked on and things like that.
So I just found it really fascinating getting to
know your experience a little bit more before we
kind of get into some of the other things.
What's kind of been the highlight with regards to
your career so far, I think it probably is.
Working on Joe Wix's body coach app.
(03:21):
I mean, not only has it allowed me to really flesh
out all of my skills in the product space, but also
I was featured as in the Apple's Developer of the Month.
I think it was they were calling out LGBT
(03:42):
people in the industry, and so that was a
great moment to be featured in that.
But also it's just been a great project with
great clients, and I've just learned so much.
And I feel like from my perspective, as long as
I feel like I'm learning something and learning new skills
and I feel like I'm doing a good job.
(04:02):
So, yeah, it's been great. That's excellent.
And it's really funny because you're kind
of preaching to the converted here.
I'm obviously massive on learning.
So I love talking to people
that do that with their career.
And I have noticed anybody that I speak
to in the kind of working world that
tends to be quite successful in their roles.
They tend to be that kind of forever learner.
(04:23):
They tend to have that growth mindset.
So it doesn't surprise me that that's
kind of how you look at it.
Definitely not. Yeah.
I think that's how I've ended up moving from
sort of like career to career, because I feel
like I always want to be learning something else.
And if I ever feel like I'm starting
to stagnate a little bit, I'm like, what's
the next thing I could move into?
(04:45):
So, yeah, that's how I ended up where I am now. Yes.
And in a good place you are definitely you mentioned a
second ago, which I obviously know about, and I was very
proud when I saw it about the award that you got.
And I think you talk about the LGBT community there.
(05:05):
So it kind of brings us on to the
conversation that we're kind of having and the reason
that we're having this conversation in the first place.
Of course, we want to talk about your career and
want to talk about all the incredible things you've done.
But actually there's been some kind of invisible barriers
from you coming from the LGBT plus community and
(05:26):
also the fact that you transitioned in the last
few years after being assigned female at birth.
So let's talk a little bit about that
and what your experience has been in the
working world around that in general. Yeah, sure.
I mean, I think I have
been incredibly lucky on that front.
(05:48):
I've been in my current role for many years.
So I've worked with all of the
people there before and after transition.
And obviously it's an ongoing process.
It's never over.
And I've had nothing but support from them.
And there haven't been any friction at all.
(06:08):
They've been very supportive.
They've given me time off when
I've needed it, emotional support.
They are kind of like we work together so
much with friends, even from I took some time
off for surgery, for example, and I emailed the
(06:29):
company to say, hey, I'm not going to be
around for a few weeks, which I probably would
never have done if I'd known that they're supportive.
And the response I got from that with
everyone was just like, amazing, really good.
So I count myself as very lucky because I know
a lot of people don't have that same response.
And it's something that's just been I've really appreciated with
(06:52):
where I am now and the people I work with.
Yeah.
I think, like you say, you hate the word lucky
because I feel like that shouldn't be the case. Right.
This should be the standard.
But unfortunately, we're miles away
from that at the moment.
But I do love this concept that actually there
are employers and organizations out there that are genuinely
(07:15):
doing the right thing by their people.
And I know this is going to be quite difficult
because there's been so many fantastic things they've done.
But is there anything that kind of sticks in your
mind that kind of right at the start of you
communicating your transition to people at work specifically?
Is there anything that sticks in your mind with
regards to OK, this might not be as hard
(07:38):
as perhaps I've heard it is with this organization.
I'm not sure.
Do you mean things I was maybe
worried about that didn't actually happen?
Yeah, I think because a lot of people when
they're kind of in those early stages of a
transition or perhaps they're in those stages of thinking
(08:00):
about communicating it to friends or family or organizations
and things like that, some people do have some
real horror stories, and I think that I'm so
grateful that you didn't have that.
But was there like a pivotal moment with your
employer that kind of made you think, oh, actually,
maybe I'm not going to have a horror story.
Maybe this is actually going to
(08:22):
be much more pleasant for me.
Yeah, I think so.
I think with getting prepared to tell people about these things
was a massive thing for me to have to do.
I mean, it took me 37 years around to it.
So obviously it was a big deal.
(08:42):
And I think for the very first thing
I did was to tell my line manager
and the managing director of the company.
I mean, my line manager was a good friend of
mine anyway, so it just felt natural to tell her.
And then the managing director and I remember
I sent an email not expecting a response.
(09:05):
And I think within like ten or 15 minutes,
I got a response back from the MD saying,
I just want to acknowledge this email.
I'm going to write back to you properly, but
this is amazing, and we will support you.
And from then on, I was like, okay, you know what?
This is going to be okay.
And then we had some time together.
We went for a coffee, and then we talked
(09:27):
about whether I could have time off and just
have certain things that I needed to do.
And if I ever needed some mental health breaks and
things like that, then they were on offer to me.
Yeah, I knew.
And I think the next phase of it or
the next stage of it, I suppose, was letting
(09:48):
people just the general business, everyone I worked with.
And there's a good like 80 or so people in the company.
And that always had filled me
with dread over the years.
Imagine email to everybody you've ever worked with.
And obviously there's a client on the other
side because I work in a client side.
(10:09):
So I've worked with a lot of clients, and they're
not even part of our company, but they would then
also find out by the fact that we work together.
So that was huge to send that out.
And I think I wrote it out and I sat on it for a
couple of days and I was like, do I want to do this?
And then I was like, you know what?
I'm just going to do it. And I did.
And the response was just amazing once I got that
(10:32):
response and I had a bit of time off.
So I sent the email and think I
was then off for a couple of weeks.
And by the time I came back,
it was like everybody had accepted it.
And now they addressed me in the correct way.
And there have been a few slip ups, obviously,
but everyone has made such an amazing effort.
(10:52):
So, yeah, but I think it was that real
original response from the managing director when I was
like, okay, they've got my back and they're going
to support me on this, which was great.
I love that in my head when you were saying that,
I was just thinking that person, your managing director, was in
a meeting, like a really important meeting that just popped up
(11:15):
on their phone, and they were like, actually, I can't let
Ash sit on this and wait for a response.
Let me just make sure they know that this is great.
I'm just going to kind of get to it.
I think that that's a real human approach.
And I think that sometimes managing directors and
CEOs, whoever those kind of really kind of
senior people in organizations, they feel like they
(11:36):
need to be seen to be disconnected in
some way to be looked at as professional.
And actually, I think what you've just
experienced and what you've just shared shows
how important that human aspect is. Definitely. Yeah.
And I think actually, if anything, she's probably tried
to do her best to counteract that, to make
(11:58):
sure that we have regular check ins.
And on a human level, we have a relationship
that is outside of the hierarchy of business.
For example, and I think that goes
for pretty much everyone I work with.
We are encouraged to have a
human level relationship with each other.
When somebody has news or a baby or they
(12:20):
go away or they leave, it's felt like really
emotionally, I think throughout the whole company, which is
something that I think is probably quite unique, unfortunately,
but it's how things should be.
Yeah, you're right.
That's definitely unique.
(12:41):
And it's not standalone for sure.
There's definitely, I think other people out there
that have transitioned, or perhaps they're thinking about
communicating it to their organization that will have
a similar experience to you, which is great.
And I think actually one of the reasons I wanted to
have this podcast with you and have this chat was because
I felt if we could get one or a handful of
(13:04):
NDS or HR directors or what have you to listen to
this and hear some kind of ideas and suggestions so that
the next time that somebody is transitioning in their organization, they
can support them even better than fantastic.
But yeah, I remember when we first talked
about doing this podcast, you're like, I'm so
sorry, I haven't got any horror stories.
(13:24):
That's great, actually.
It's not always about the kind of things
that are really difficult, and obviously we want
to spread as much as that as possible.
But you mentioned a minute ago about
working with different clients as well.
You had a really great
reaction internally, which is fantastic.
And obviously that was led from the top, which
is so important when we think about anything to
(13:46):
do with that kind of approach to culture and
the way in which people are treated.
So the client aspects.
And I'm always really interested in this because a
lot of my clients that I work with, we
talk a lot about the internal culture, but I
also talk about the affiliation and the supplier relationships
they have and actually how important that is with
regards to diversity and inclusion in general.
(14:09):
Were there any situations with suppliers or clients
that have been more challenging, or have you
just found it the same across the board?
Well, that's a good question.
I mean, I have been on the body coach project
now for the last two and a half years.
(14:29):
I came out to the business, I
went away for a couple of weeks.
When I came back, I started on this
project, and they are the most wonderful clients.
There's always, I think, new moments and you
meet new people and it's something I'm hyper
aware of and that other people wouldn't be.
(14:51):
But I can see I can see when
people are a little bit like, what?
It's a very small, like, facial expression
and they don't realize they're doing it.
But I'm hyper aware of it because I'm
always aware of like, do people know, what
are they thinking, all that kind of thing.
But apart from that, I mean,
(15:12):
that's just a natural response.
I think people are like,
okay, bit confused, but whatever.
I have never been misgendered by them
ever, and they've just been great.
There have been clients over the past
where I think I probably would have
(15:34):
been less comfortable sharing it with them.
Particularly, I think some kinds of corporations
or some kinds of relationships you have
with people just aren't the same.
But with this client, it's been great.
And I haven't felt the need to
tell anyone not to say anything.
(15:58):
I'm quite open with my transition and
stuff, and a lot of people aren't.
So it would be very different if you spoke to
someone who would want to stay stealth, for example, in
which case you would want only the bare minimum of
people to know, whereas I'm not like that.
So my experience is different in that way. Yeah.
(16:21):
And I guess that's a good point,
actually, because everybody's experience is completely different.
So what might have worked for you in your organization
and the way that say that instant moment where your
MD responded in that way instantly kind of helps your
shoulders to relax a little bit of you to go,
okay, maybe actually, this is going to be a little
(16:44):
bit easier than I thought.
And I don't think everybody does have that experience.
But yeah, I think we'll come back and kind of circle
back to this in a minute because I want to talk
a little bit about some kind of suggestions that you think
have kind of worked for you in your organizations.
But I think before we get into that, I kind of
want to dive a little bit into the idea of how
(17:08):
misunderstood trans people are and all of those sorts of things.
So what's the kind of most common misconception
that people make about you in general?
That's an easy one for you there. Yeah.
(17:29):
Straight in there.
Misconception wise.
I'm not sure really.
I try to stay out of a lot of the negative
things you see, because you only have to go on.
Like, for example, one news article about a trans
(17:50):
athlete, for example, and you'll get a whole ton
of it's a mental illness, and we shouldn't be
encouraging it and all that kind of stuff.
But personally, I haven't, apart from reading those things,
which I try not to really, I'm trying to
(18:11):
think what misconceptions there could be, I suppose.
Yeah.
I can't really think of any. Okay.
Maybe we should look at the question
in a slightly different way then.
And maybe we can think about if there was one thing
that you wish people knew about trans people or about the
experience of transitioning, what do you think that would be, if
(18:36):
you think of that would really help people to understand the
kind of situation a little bit better? Yeah.
I mean, I think there are some just practical things
that are small things, like going to the toilet.
That is one of the biggest stresses that
I have, particularly at work, we have unisex
(18:59):
toilets, so it's not a problem. Sure.
If I'm at a pub, there's an expectation
you go to a specific gendered toilet and
you're like, Do I feel safe in that?
And can I go in there?
And sometimes I've just not gone because I'm like, I'll
(19:20):
go into a men's loo and they'll only be urinals
and you're like, right, okay, I can't use those.
So now I can't go to the toilet at work if
you can make that space for people to feel comfortable going
to the loo, which is a very basic thing.
There are certain things like that where
(19:40):
it's just the experience is different.
Like cisgendered people don't have to worry about, am
I going to be able to go to the
toilet when I go out where lots of trans
people do or things like assigned female at birth
or trans masculine transgender males may still menstruate.
(20:03):
And then you go into men's toilets
and there's no sanitary bins in there.
So what do you do?
So it's like these kind of practical things
that they're quite small, but they would just
make life so much easier for people.
I think that's a big one for me because that has
(20:23):
taken me a while to get my head around as well
because you kind of tie yourself in knots as well around.
Do I pass enough to be gendered correctly and not be
approached to be in the wrong toilet, or do I pass
too much that if I continue to use the female toilets,
I get called out for being in there and you constantly
(20:44):
in this kind of like, well, which one do I go?
I'll just go to the disabled toilets
if there is one kind of thing.
So things like that would be really helpful, I think.
Wow, yeah. Do you know what?
It's so interesting because I guess when you
read about trends, rights, or when you kind
of think about the progression, which definitely feels
(21:07):
like it's sped up in the last few
years, but it's still very much far behind.
Lots of other kind of rights, the
toilet thing always comes up and I
always think, oh, okay, yeah, that's important.
But I guess I never really understood how
important that was because it's just so interesting.
There was something I saw on social media the
other day where somebody went to Appliance offices and
(21:31):
they actually had one kind of space for the
toilet and the signage was fantastic.
It was so inclusive.
So it was for every single type of person.
The person that was changing the nappy
on the symbol wasn't a woman.
There was some really great things on
there and I think that's really important.
(21:51):
But yeah, I guess it's so important, but
it's just not something I'm cisgender, so it's
not something I have to think about.
And I'm quite feminine in the way I
look as well, so I don't even ever
have to consider that as a general rule. But.
Yeah, really interesting.
Okay.
(22:11):
So then what about some of the kind of positive
things that have kind of come from your transition?
What do you know or what do you know
about yourself now that perhaps you didn't know before?
Is there anything kind of positive that's come out
of this apart from the fact that you can
actually be the identity that you are? Yeah.
(22:35):
I mean, I think that's it really it's an interesting
thing because I think for some people, it's really a
moment for celebration or it's something to be proud of.
But for me, it just felt like it's
just something that just needed to happen.
(22:56):
Do you know what I mean?
It's not something that I really celebrate, but it's more like I'm
on this path and I need to go on this path.
Perhaps if I was younger and I'd done it then then
it probably wouldn't have got to the point where it felt
like that and maybe it would have felt a bit more
like this is amazing, and I feel really great about it.
(23:17):
But also it's a really long process.
I've been transitioning for two years, but I'm nowhere near
I don't know if it ever ends, to be honest.
Yeah.
I think the positive things is just not having to think about
(23:37):
it all the time, having to be like, worrying about I need
to do this thing, but I don't want to do it.
It's done now.
I can just get on with it, if that makes sense. Yeah.
And I think it's funny because I spend a lot
of time in a lot of my workshop, especially the
early ones with clients where we're trying to get them
to understand the business case of DNI.
(23:59):
And we obviously talk about the human
aspect, but we're also talking about that.
Do you know what?
If people can just come into work as
themselves, they'll probably do a better job.
They'll be more productive, they'll be more collaborative, they'll have
better outcomes, and they'll have a desire to want to
do a good job day in, day out, because they're
not trying to kind of hide a little bit about
(24:20):
themselves or having to second guess everything and try and
remember what it is that they've kind of spoken to
different people about and things like that.
So I think that it doesn't just go for work,
of course it goes for life as well, isn't it?
Yeah, I think this is a thing as well for me
with being open about it, because I think if you were
(24:41):
and there are people who prefer to stay stealth and they
don't want anyone to know, but the mental overload of that
to be like even now, actually, whenever you do, I assume
you do lots of things like this already.
But when you have a workshop and you do kind of like
an Energizer or you do like a get to know you thing.
(25:02):
And then sometimes you might have to bring
a picture of you in as a kid
and you're like, don't want to do that.
Yes, because I don't need people or for
a long time actually recording my voice.
I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to
hear it back and I don't listen to it back.
But that kind of like put me off doing a lot
(25:23):
of company wide video meetings and stuff that I just back
out of a little bit now because I know they're all
recorded, but things like that, I think even though I'm really
open about it, things like that still make me cringe.
Like the idea that there's a recording of me, like
(25:44):
three years ago where my voice is very different or
a presentation file with my old name on it.
To know those kind of things completely stealth, you would
have to be constantly thinking, what am I saying?
Am I saying something that would give me away
so I don't have to worry about that bit?
(26:05):
And these things, although I don't like the idea of
them, they don't impact my day to day work.
I still have lots of meetings.
I still do demos every two weeks.
I still talk to my clients all the time.
But yeah, it's just that when I think about
it, I'm like, oh, no, I'm not going to
go back and listen to those recordings.
But it's interesting because obviously there's a prerecorded version
(26:27):
of me and my working experience in this company,
and now there's another one who followed me through
this journey knows me both before and after.
And in some ways that's kind of like, good,
because we can talk openly about these things.
In some ways it's like, well, maybe I would
(26:48):
rather they didn't know or they weren't thinking, oh,
as an example, I think about a year ago
with COVID, obviously we weren't meeting anyone.
And then when the lot down lifted, we had our
first face to face social with the company and I
was quite worried about that because I'm like, no one's
(27:10):
seen me for a year and I know they're going
to be like, oh, your voice has changed.
Oh, you look a bit different.
And even though they don't say those things, I can
see it playing out in their faces because like I
said before, I'm hyper aware of these tiny nuances.
Yeah.
So that happens.
If I haven't seen anyone for a long time and then I
see them and I'm like, what's their reaction going to be?
(27:32):
I mean, it's all been positive, but
yeah, there's always these mental, constant mental
things that are going on. Yes.
I think if you are, it's better
that I can talk about those things.
I'm not constantly worried about it.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think it must be exhausting as well to just constantly
(27:54):
have to kind of think around these things so often.
One of the words you've mentioned quite a
few times, I just want to make sure
that it's nice and clear for the viewers.
I was about to say they won't be watching this.
The listeners is the word stout.
Do you think that you can help explain
that just for the listeners, just in case
it's a word they've never heard before? Yeah, sure.
(28:15):
So for some trans people, they don't want
anybody to know that they are trans.
So I think once you get to some people
get to a certain point in their transition where
what they call pass, you wouldn't second guess their
gender in public, that kind of thing.
Once they get to that point, they're like, you know
(28:37):
what, nobody needs to know anymore that I'm a trans
person and therefore I am not going to tell anyone
and I'm going to live in the agenda that I
want to be and nobody needs to know my past.
And we call that stealth.
So they're now stealth.
They don't disclose their status. Yes.
Which I can imagine for some people is a safety thing
(28:59):
because it can be extremely unsafe to be a trans person.
So you wouldn't want anybody to know. Yeah.
But I think a lot of people just on the flip
side of that, that you don't have to be on hormones
or have corrective surgery or dress a certain way to be.
(29:23):
You're not more trans than someone else.
So I think there is a slight danger in that
language, whereas you assume that you're not trans unless you
go down this path that I've been down.
So there's a lot of language I think that
we use in the trans community that can be
exclusionary that we shouldn't really be using.
(29:45):
But still, I think it's important for people to know that
there are people who just don't want anyone to know.
And that's okay. Yeah.
And that danger thing is so real
for so many people, isn't it?
And you hear horror stories, unfortunately, in the UK,
just as well as other parts of the world.
So I can totally understand why some people would
(30:07):
want to not kind of have the trans word
attached to them, but also not just from a
danger perspective, I'm sure, actually, just from the way
that they feel about themselves and what have you.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, for some people, some people
are really proud of their status.
Other people are like, it's not a thing.
(30:29):
I'm not super proud of it,
but I don't mind people knowing.
But then some people are like, why would I tell anyone?
I'm no different to anyone else.
So you know what I mean?
It's that kind of everyone's different. Yeah.
And you say you're not proud of it.
And actually, I know you quite well, so I know
you're quite a private person, so I kind of get
(30:51):
where you're coming from with that and that kind of
thought process I was just thinking about.
Because you were saying earlier about how
there were things recorded three years ago.
I'm just thinking, well, maybe we shouldn't make
you listen to this in previous time.
Yeah, I probably won't.
(31:12):
We'll lose it somewhere in the archives. Don't worry.
I'll make sure you never have to
hear it after we release it.
I've got a few more things that I'd love
to kind of touch base with you on, because
I love chatting to you anyway, you know that.
(31:33):
But I think that this is such an important
topic for so many different types of people, especially
those people that don't really understand what it's like
to be trans in the working world.
So we're talking obviously specifically about work, but I
think what would be really good to know, in
your opinion, and obviously you're one person, you don't
(31:54):
represent every single person that is trans.
But is there anything that you wish
your industry kind of did better to
support people from the LGBT plus community?
Or maybe you think there's one thing
that your industry does better, perhaps in
other industries in that respect? Yeah.
(32:16):
I think there are places in the industry
that are doing better, and I think they
are kind of trailblazing a little bit.
And I think us too.
Where I work is one of those where DNI is
super important, as is the hiring process, to make sure
it's as inclusive as possible, that kind of stuff.
(32:37):
But I think there's a long way to go.
I think across the industry as a
whole, I think it's the case for
any marginalized group that needs more support.
So, yeah, I think there are companies that are doing
better than others, but it is great that there are
(32:58):
those out in front and paving the way and making
sure that diversity is, number one, having a diverse workforce.
It has so many benefits, as you know.
So that's something that is really
important to me as well.
It's like I don't want to work places that aren't
diverse because it's everywhere should be like hiring practices, helping
(33:26):
people on board, all that kind of thing.
To make sure it's as inclusive as
possible, I think is really important.
I think probably the creative industry
probably is further ahead than others.
Creative people in general, I suppose, should be
(33:48):
more open to wider groups of people.
But yeah, obviously there's always a long
way to go on these things. Yeah.
It's interesting, though.
I work in some offices where there's some fantastic
social enterprises and different charities and stuff, and people
just doing really good things for the world.
(34:08):
And there's a really great recruitment company there
called Found by Few, which I'm sure they're
not going to mind me mentioning here.
And they do a lot of work, not just on
that kind of creative kind of space with regards to
recruitment, but they really strive to change the face of
the creative industries because a lot of the time.
(34:30):
It's a very similar type of person that is
being hired and promoted and what have you and
kind of in the startup spaces and stuff itself.
And I've loved watching them grow.
I mean, they've grown.
Their growth has been fantastic because they're really
about the individual and they're really about changing
the way that the creative industry recruits.
But I also love how much they're learning as well.
(34:52):
They're constantly bringing speakers in and experts in all
these different areas so that they can make sure
that they're keeping their knowledge topped up as well.
So I wonder then actually, whether there's some
work in the creative industry as to be
fair, with all the industries where it is
that let's just have some conversations.
Let's just really start to get to hear
it from somebody that's experiencing this particular marginalization.
(35:17):
And I think that is how you breed diversity.
That's how you start to really attract
different types of people to the industry.
And then, as you say in the
business case for diversity, it's phenomenal.
The data is there, the revenue increase
and the retention and all of these
fantastic things, the customer loyalty.
(35:38):
And also there's a huge percentage of people coming through
the talent pool now in the creative industries as well
as some others that they won't, like you said, like
yourself, you won't go and work somewhere.
You won't go and take your talent and your potential
and your skills and your ideas to an organization that
isn't diverse and doesn't treat people in that way.
(35:59):
So it's not just about right now and
making sure that companies are doing the right
thing and being fantastic right now.
It's actually the future.
I just don't think those companies are going to last.
I don't think they're going to be able to
because millennials are coming through and even the generation
that's kind of being built up in schools now,
they're just not going to want to work for
those types of companies that aren't diverse.
(36:21):
Yeah, for sure. Definitely.
Okay.
So I just wanted to ask you just for
some kind of advice or some suggestions just about
how organizations can support people that are maybe transitioning,
or perhaps they're thinking about communicating their transition, or
(36:43):
perhaps they've already transitioned and they want to communicate
that with their organizations, because I think you've had
such a good experience with us, too.
And big shout out to them.
I just think it's fantastic.
The way that they treat the human beings
in their organization is really a lesson to
be learned for lots of other organizations.
(37:04):
But the first piece of advice I think I'd
love to get from you and it's your opinion.
So of course, lots of people have different ideas,
but how can managers talk about kind of trans
issues or conversations about trans issues with their teams?
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things that I did that
(37:25):
I really appreciated was shortly after I came out.
They got in a call.
Now they got in this trans speaker to come in
and talk to everybody who worked there about what it
was like to be trans, how to support trans people,
how to use the correct language and terminology.
(37:46):
And they've done a few of those gendered intelligence.
They were called, they came in and
they've done a couple of talks.
And for me, that just took all of the
pressure off of me having to do that.
And it was like they got someone in because I
feel like some people don't want to have the conversation
because they're worried about saying the wrong things or they
(38:07):
don't know how to ask a question in a way
that they feel like won't be offensive.
I think they steer away from it and they don't ask.
But I think having gendered intelligence come in,
they could ask that person these questions.
And it wasn't such a personal
level, you know what I mean?
(38:28):
Like, they could ask the hard
questions and get the answers.
So that was really great for me.
So I think there are lots of resources, and I think
there are things you can do to learn more about it
and the trans experience and try to be an advocate.
And I think that's the thing.
(38:49):
It's kind of like finding people who you feel would
be an advocate for you and help support you.
Or if you're like, I want to tell
someone this, what do you think about it?
Not that you would ask them permission, but just
sort of it's difficult because I had so much
(39:12):
support from everyone that I don't know specifically.
But I think that if you can get just more
knowledge on what it's like to live in a different
world, for example, then I think that helps for someone
who's working somewhere who's thinking about coming out.
(39:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I think trust the relationships you
have, like your strongest relationships you have and
talk to those people first, and they can
help support you in what you need.
Yeah.
I love that gendered intelligence as well.
(39:54):
I love that they brought these people in because
us to then created a safe space for people
to be able to ask these questions.
They also took the pressure off you having
to be the number one trans expert because
you were probably still learning, and you probably
are still learning now about your own experience,
but also that of the community in general.
(40:15):
So I think it's great that you
bring in these this is 100%.
What organizations should be doing is bringing in the
experts, don't rely and don't force that person or
that group of people to be the spokespeople, because
even if they are comfortable talking about it, they
don't want to talk on behalf of everyone else.
That's not really how it works.
(40:35):
And like I said, it took the pressure
off you, which I think is fantastic.
And yeah, big round of applause
for them for doing that.
So it's a simple thing as well.
And I think it doesn't just work,
obviously, when we're talking about trends, kind
of areas and things like that.
It works across all the different marginalized groups.
And I'm a big advocate for getting expert speakers
in to really kind of open up that conversation
(40:57):
and create a space where people can ask questions
because especially if it's something that they're not used
to talking about on a daily basis, they're going
to be intrigued, they're going to be curious, and
like I said, they're not going to want to
step a foot wrong and kind of don't ask
any questions because they're worried about getting it wrong.
So.
Yeah, really love that. Yeah. Okay.
So then what piece of advice would you give
(41:20):
other organizations that are kind of working with this?
So we've got a really great piece of
advice there around bringing in expert speakers.
Is there any other kind of advice that
you would give to another organization thinking about
kind of opening up this conversation?
Yeah, I guess there's the
(41:41):
emotional support around these things.
And to acknowledge, I think that somebody who's going
through the process of transition or even thinking about
coming out are in a very vulnerable space.
They are putting themselves out there.
And for me, that was massive because, as
you say, I'm a very private person.
(42:03):
I'm topic of conversation.
I mean, I don't know if that's the case
because obviously the award didn't help out that way.
I think for even just to recognize that somebody is
going through big feelings and they may need some space.
(42:26):
Obviously, we're businesses and stuff, but I genuinely think
that if people don't have the space to process
these things, then you're not going to get out
of them what you need as a business anyway.
Give them space.
Understand that they might need
time off for medical reasons.
(42:48):
Some people do, some people don't.
US, too, has always been very good to say if you
need time off to go and do whatever you see a
doctor, for example, you can go ahead and do that.
So I've not felt like I had
to use my holidays or unpaid leave.
They've been supportive of all of that.
(43:08):
And if I ever feel like the whole company actually
has mental wellness days where if you feel like you
need to go away and have selfcare, you can.
I mean, I know not everybody can do that, but
I think there is just something in acknowledging that it's
a big deal for people to be going through that
and they don't need added pressure of performance on top.
(43:35):
I think that's the emotional side of it.
But then I think there's like more of a
practical side of things, like helping get paperwork sorted
out, helping change names on pay slips, or sorting
pension names out, which I've not managed to do
because the pension company are being a pain.
But there are certain things that there's
(43:57):
a lot of misunderstanding about what you
need in order to change your identity.
Lots of people think you need
a gender recognition certificate, for example.
That's not actually the case for a lot of things.
Or some people think you need a rubber stamped deep
pole from a solicitor that also isn't the case.
(44:18):
But then you end up coming up against these gates
all the time of people and you have to go
in and explain, no, you don't need to do this.
So I think there is could be some awareness
from the company to be like, just help get
the paperwork sorted out, help understand that gender recognition
(44:38):
certificates have a whole Hoops to jump through and
many years to get one sorted out.
So do what you can before you even get that
those sorts of things are really helpful because there is
a lot of paperwork to get sorted out.
Yeah. That's so interesting.
(44:59):
I never really thought about the paperwork aspect, of
course, because if you're Cisgender, you've got your birth
certificate, you've got your passport, everything's kind of set
up on the name that you already have.
So, yeah, interesting. Okay.
That's definitely something for me to go in
and have a bit of a reflect about.
And hopefully people that are listening to
this, that's something for them to have
a little bit of a think about.
(45:19):
And one of the things I always talk about
with my clients, whether it's in a facilitated session
or maybe just a conversation with the executive or
whatever, is about this idea that actually ask the
person what it is that they need.
Because like you said, everybody who is transitioning
or considering or they've already transitioned, they're going
(45:40):
to have very different needs and they're going
to want very different levels of support.
So I think that that's something that your organization
did really well, which I think you'll probably agree.
I'm getting lots of nod.
People can't hear that, but I'm getting lots of nod.
Yeah.
I mean, it's all been on my own time frame.
(46:01):
There's never been any pressure to take things
as and when I'm ready for them and
I let them know what's going on.
Yeah.
I think there is that everyone's
journey is different and everyone's going
to need something slightly different.
(46:24):
I think that goes with everything.
I've just been reading a really great book around
hidden disabilities, and the author has actually gone and
spoken to so many tons and tons of people.
And actually at the end of each of the conversations, they
said, okay, so what is it that you can ask for?
What would you ask for your organization to help you?
(46:45):
And they've given these really great tips at
the end for each of these different things.
But the whole concept of the book is
just treat the individual as an individual.
You might think you know everything about this
particular topic or this particular marginalized group.
But actually you don't because
every single person is different.
So I think if that's the big takeaway
(47:06):
from this conversation that people can take, I
think that's a really great one.
And the fact that it doesn't
always have to be horror stories.
We know that there's some hideous things that happen
out there, but sometimes organizations get it right.
And I'm so glad that you're one of the
people that had that experience because you're my friend
and I'm biased, what can I say?
(47:29):
But no, I do. I think it's great.
And I hope there are people listening to this
now that might maybe go about something slightly differently
when they're kind of dealing with conversations around this
or perhaps even if they're managing somebody that comes
to them and says, oh, Hi, I'm transitioning.
What support can you give me?
They might have a little bit more of an
idea now of how they can do that.
(47:51):
I've got one last question before I thank you.
And we kind of sign off, which is what
piece of advice would you give to young professionals
who are transitioning or who have transitioned young professionals.
Yeah.
(48:14):
I think what I'd say to young professionals, I think is
if you get any kind of warning bells or anything in
the hiring process or when scoping out where to work or
who to work with, trust you got and sorry.
Looking for onesies that's a little
(48:38):
R1 life of working from home. Yeah.
You can chop that bit out.
I might not.
But yeah, I think that's it I think when you're young
men thinking back a long time ago for me, especially when
you're trying to get into a new career, and I think
(49:01):
sometimes you feel like you have to take a substandard experience
just to get on the ladder, I really hope.
And I feel like things are changing
now and there are more opportunities and
that people wouldn't have to do that.
I know that's an idealistic point of view, but I feel
like there is something entrusting your gut and knowing that whether
(49:23):
it's right or not, because if you're also having to deal
with not being cisgendered or in any kind of group, that
a small group of people, then you're like that's just something
on top of that as well.
Also chat people who work there.
(49:46):
I think the other thing is just in general, support
wise, outside of the working world as well, there are
loads of support groups and social meet ups and stuff.
And if you can get to those, then you can
talk to those people about their experiences in working in
(50:06):
certain places and get guidance, I suppose, from there.
Yeah.
The main thing is if you get any alarm
bells, then trust your gut and move me.
Yeah, you're normally right.
Yeah, exactly.
Listen, thank you so much.
(50:27):
I've got like ten new ways that I
can have a conversation around this now.
And some really great tips that I can take forward,
but I love this and I think I know you're
a private person, I know you don't want to be
the spokespeople for kind of trans awareness and things like
that, but I do think it's really helpful to hear
from somebody that has and is going through the transition
(50:50):
period and I've certainly learned a few new things and
hopefully I'll listen this out as well.
But thank you so much.
What a fantastic podcast.
Hopefully you enjoyed that as much as we did
and you've taken away as many tips and suggestions
(51:12):
as we have to support people in your organization
who are transitioning, regardless of which part of the
journey they're at the moment.
We loved having this conversation.
If you want to have more conversations like this or you
want to just talk about your DNI learning in general, then
get in touch with us or go and have a look
at our website, which is zing Revolution dot co.
(51:34):
Uk thanks, we'll see you on the next one.
Welcome to our first ever Zing Learning podcast
titled A Conversation with a podcast where we
get together with inspiring individuals once a fortnight
to chat about what they're doing in their
careers and to explore conversations around enhancing equality,
diversity, inclusion and belonging for everyone.
(00:27):
Each fortnight, we will dive into a key
topic, talk about things that interest us, and
ask for some advice and top tips to
create inclusive workspaces for all types of people.
In our first podcast of Series One,
we are very excited to be joined
by the incredible human that is Ashbatholynew.
(00:48):
We're going to discuss his transition
journey, how his organization supports him.
Plus he will be sharing advice and
suggestions to help enhance inclusion and embed
belonging for other business leaders.
So grab a cup, air, kick back and enjoy the podcast.
(01:10):
Hey Ash, we have been friends for a long time.
We've been on holidays together, long live military
in Portugal, and the many fun times that
we have had are countless, of course.
But actually during our friendship, you have
gone through lots of really great things.
You've started a family, you've made impressive moves
(01:32):
in your career, and also you have transitioned.
So I kind of wanted to talk to you
today a little bit about all of those things.
And actually I think if we kind of get started
with your career in general, that would be really interesting.
So do you want to tell us a little
bit about what you do and your experience? Yeah, sure.
So I'm a product manager now, but I came into
(01:54):
the creative industry through design, so I've been in product
for about five years, and then before that I was
a designer for about ten years and I kind of
found my way into product, kind of, I suppose starting
off with visual design and then wanting to get a
bit more into the user experience because I like the
idea of getting underneath the behaviors of people and then
(02:18):
from there moving more into product because I get to
make lots of decisions, I guess.
But yeah, and I get to do all of
the things I enjoyed doing, talking to users and
trying to create products that they want to use
and that are successful for my clients. Yeah.
(02:38):
And it's really funny because I've known you for a
really long time, and it's only really been recently that
I've understood why I say understood your job.
I probably still don't really understand your job
to really get to grips with it.
And obviously I only found out recently that
you got to work on the Joe Wicks
app, which obviously everybody probably knows about.
So that's very cool.
(02:59):
I already know some of the other really big kind
of apps that you've worked on and things like that.
So I just found it really fascinating getting to
know your experience a little bit more before we
kind of get into some of the other things.
What's kind of been the highlight with regards to
your career so far, I think it probably is.
Working on Joe Wix's body coach app.
(03:21):
I mean, not only has it allowed me to really flesh
out all of my skills in the product space, but also
I was featured as in the Apple's Developer of the Month.
I think it was they were calling out LGBT
(03:42):
people in the industry, and so that was a
great moment to be featured in that.
But also it's just been a great project with
great clients, and I've just learned so much.
And I feel like from my perspective, as long as
I feel like I'm learning something and learning new skills
and I feel like I'm doing a good job.
(04:02):
So, yeah, it's been great. That's excellent.
And it's really funny because you're kind
of preaching to the converted here.
I'm obviously massive on learning.
So I love talking to people
that do that with their career.
And I have noticed anybody that I speak
to in the kind of working world that
tends to be quite successful in their roles.
They tend to be that kind of forever learner.
(04:23):
They tend to have that growth mindset.
So it doesn't surprise me that that's
kind of how you look at it.
Definitely not. Yeah.
I think that's how I've ended up moving from
sort of like career to career, because I feel
like I always want to be learning something else.
And if I ever feel like I'm starting
to stagnate a little bit, I'm like, what's
the next thing I could move into?
(04:45):
So, yeah, that's how I ended up where I am now. Yes.
And in a good place you are definitely you mentioned a
second ago, which I obviously know about, and I was very
proud when I saw it about the award that you got.
And I think you talk about the LGBT community there.
(05:05):
So it kind of brings us on to the
conversation that we're kind of having and the reason
that we're having this conversation in the first place.
Of course, we want to talk about your career and
want to talk about all the incredible things you've done.
But actually there's been some kind of invisible barriers
from you coming from the LGBT plus community and
(05:26):
also the fact that you transitioned in the last
few years after being assigned female at birth.
So let's talk a little bit about that
and what your experience has been in the
working world around that in general. Yeah, sure.
I mean, I think I have
been incredibly lucky on that front.
(05:48):
I've been in my current role for many years.
So I've worked with all of the
people there before and after transition.
And obviously it's an ongoing process.
It's never over.
And I've had nothing but support from them.
And there haven't been any friction at all.
(06:08):
They've been very supportive.
They've given me time off when
I've needed it, emotional support.
They are kind of like we work together so
much with friends, even from I took some time
off for surgery, for example, and I emailed the
(06:29):
company to say, hey, I'm not going to be
around for a few weeks, which I probably would
never have done if I'd known that they're supportive.
And the response I got from that with
everyone was just like, amazing, really good.
So I count myself as very lucky because I know
a lot of people don't have that same response.
And it's something that's just been I've really appreciated with
(06:52):
where I am now and the people I work with.
Yeah.
I think, like you say, you hate the word lucky
because I feel like that shouldn't be the case. Right.
This should be the standard.
But unfortunately, we're miles away
from that at the moment.
But I do love this concept that actually there
are employers and organizations out there that are genuinely
(07:15):
doing the right thing by their people.
And I know this is going to be quite difficult
because there's been so many fantastic things they've done.
But is there anything that kind of sticks in your
mind that kind of right at the start of you
communicating your transition to people at work specifically?
Is there anything that sticks in your mind with
regards to OK, this might not be as hard
(07:38):
as perhaps I've heard it is with this organization.
I'm not sure.
Do you mean things I was maybe
worried about that didn't actually happen?
Yeah, I think because a lot of people when
they're kind of in those early stages of a
transition or perhaps they're in those stages of thinking
(08:00):
about communicating it to friends or family or organizations
and things like that, some people do have some
real horror stories, and I think that I'm so
grateful that you didn't have that.
But was there like a pivotal moment with your
employer that kind of made you think, oh, actually,
maybe I'm not going to have a horror story.
Maybe this is actually going to
(08:22):
be much more pleasant for me.
Yeah, I think so.
I think with getting prepared to tell people about these things
was a massive thing for me to have to do.
I mean, it took me 37 years around to it.
So obviously it was a big deal.
(08:42):
And I think for the very first thing
I did was to tell my line manager
and the managing director of the company.
I mean, my line manager was a good friend of
mine anyway, so it just felt natural to tell her.
And then the managing director and I remember
I sent an email not expecting a response.
(09:05):
And I think within like ten or 15 minutes,
I got a response back from the MD saying,
I just want to acknowledge this email.
I'm going to write back to you properly, but
this is amazing, and we will support you.
And from then on, I was like, okay, you know what?
This is going to be okay.
And then we had some time together.
We went for a coffee, and then we talked
(09:27):
about whether I could have time off and just
have certain things that I needed to do.
And if I ever needed some mental health breaks and
things like that, then they were on offer to me.
Yeah, I knew.
And I think the next phase of it or
the next stage of it, I suppose, was letting
(09:48):
people just the general business, everyone I worked with.
And there's a good like 80 or so people in the company.
And that always had filled me
with dread over the years.
Imagine email to everybody you've ever worked with.
And obviously there's a client on the other
side because I work in a client side.
(10:09):
So I've worked with a lot of clients, and they're
not even part of our company, but they would then
also find out by the fact that we work together.
So that was huge to send that out.
And I think I wrote it out and I sat on it for a
couple of days and I was like, do I want to do this?
And then I was like, you know what?
I'm just going to do it. And I did.
And the response was just amazing once I got that
(10:32):
response and I had a bit of time off.
So I sent the email and think I
was then off for a couple of weeks.
And by the time I came back,
it was like everybody had accepted it.
And now they addressed me in the correct way.
And there have been a few slip ups, obviously,
but everyone has made such an amazing effort.
(10:52):
So, yeah, but I think it was that real
original response from the managing director when I was
like, okay, they've got my back and they're going
to support me on this, which was great.
I love that in my head when you were saying that,
I was just thinking that person, your managing director, was in
a meeting, like a really important meeting that just popped up
(11:15):
on their phone, and they were like, actually, I can't let
Ash sit on this and wait for a response.
Let me just make sure they know that this is great.
I'm just going to kind of get to it.
I think that that's a real human approach.
And I think that sometimes managing directors and
CEOs, whoever those kind of really kind of
senior people in organizations, they feel like they
(11:36):
need to be seen to be disconnected in
some way to be looked at as professional.
And actually, I think what you've just
experienced and what you've just shared shows
how important that human aspect is. Definitely. Yeah.
And I think actually, if anything, she's probably tried
to do her best to counteract that, to make
(11:58):
sure that we have regular check ins.
And on a human level, we have a relationship
that is outside of the hierarchy of business.
For example, and I think that goes
for pretty much everyone I work with.
We are encouraged to have a
human level relationship with each other.
When somebody has news or a baby or they
(12:20):
go away or they leave, it's felt like really
emotionally, I think throughout the whole company, which is
something that I think is probably quite unique, unfortunately,
but it's how things should be.
Yeah, you're right.
That's definitely unique.
(12:41):
And it's not standalone for sure.
There's definitely, I think other people out there
that have transitioned, or perhaps they're thinking about
communicating it to their organization that will have
a similar experience to you, which is great.
And I think actually one of the reasons I wanted to
have this podcast with you and have this chat was because
I felt if we could get one or a handful of
(13:04):
NDS or HR directors or what have you to listen to
this and hear some kind of ideas and suggestions so that
the next time that somebody is transitioning in their organization, they
can support them even better than fantastic.
But yeah, I remember when we first talked
about doing this podcast, you're like, I'm so
sorry, I haven't got any horror stories.
(13:24):
That's great, actually.
It's not always about the kind of things
that are really difficult, and obviously we want
to spread as much as that as possible.
But you mentioned a minute ago about
working with different clients as well.
You had a really great
reaction internally, which is fantastic.
And obviously that was led from the top, which
is so important when we think about anything to
(13:46):
do with that kind of approach to culture and
the way in which people are treated.
So the client aspects.
And I'm always really interested in this because a
lot of my clients that I work with, we
talk a lot about the internal culture, but I
also talk about the affiliation and the supplier relationships
they have and actually how important that is with
regards to diversity and inclusion in general.
(14:09):
Were there any situations with suppliers or clients
that have been more challenging, or have you
just found it the same across the board?
Well, that's a good question.
I mean, I have been on the body coach project
now for the last two and a half years.
(14:29):
I came out to the business, I
went away for a couple of weeks.
When I came back, I started on this
project, and they are the most wonderful clients.
There's always, I think, new moments and you
meet new people and it's something I'm hyper
aware of and that other people wouldn't be.
(14:51):
But I can see I can see when
people are a little bit like, what?
It's a very small, like, facial expression
and they don't realize they're doing it.
But I'm hyper aware of it because I'm
always aware of like, do people know, what
are they thinking, all that kind of thing.
But apart from that, I mean,
(15:12):
that's just a natural response.
I think people are like,
okay, bit confused, but whatever.
I have never been misgendered by them
ever, and they've just been great.
There have been clients over the past
where I think I probably would have
(15:34):
been less comfortable sharing it with them.
Particularly, I think some kinds of corporations
or some kinds of relationships you have
with people just aren't the same.
But with this client, it's been great.
And I haven't felt the need to
tell anyone not to say anything.
(15:58):
I'm quite open with my transition and
stuff, and a lot of people aren't.
So it would be very different if you spoke to
someone who would want to stay stealth, for example, in
which case you would want only the bare minimum of
people to know, whereas I'm not like that.
So my experience is different in that way. Yeah.
(16:21):
And I guess that's a good point,
actually, because everybody's experience is completely different.
So what might have worked for you in your organization
and the way that say that instant moment where your
MD responded in that way instantly kind of helps your
shoulders to relax a little bit of you to go,
okay, maybe actually, this is going to be a little
(16:44):
bit easier than I thought.
And I don't think everybody does have that experience.
But yeah, I think we'll come back and kind of circle
back to this in a minute because I want to talk
a little bit about some kind of suggestions that you think
have kind of worked for you in your organizations.
But I think before we get into that, I kind of
want to dive a little bit into the idea of how
(17:08):
misunderstood trans people are and all of those sorts of things.
So what's the kind of most common misconception
that people make about you in general?
That's an easy one for you there. Yeah.
(17:29):
Straight in there.
Misconception wise.
I'm not sure really.
I try to stay out of a lot of the negative
things you see, because you only have to go on.
Like, for example, one news article about a trans
(17:50):
athlete, for example, and you'll get a whole ton
of it's a mental illness, and we shouldn't be
encouraging it and all that kind of stuff.
But personally, I haven't, apart from reading those things,
which I try not to really, I'm trying to
(18:11):
think what misconceptions there could be, I suppose.
Yeah.
I can't really think of any. Okay.
Maybe we should look at the question
in a slightly different way then.
And maybe we can think about if there was one thing
that you wish people knew about trans people or about the
experience of transitioning, what do you think that would be, if
(18:36):
you think of that would really help people to understand the
kind of situation a little bit better? Yeah.
I mean, I think there are some just practical things
that are small things, like going to the toilet.
That is one of the biggest stresses that
I have, particularly at work, we have unisex
(18:59):
toilets, so it's not a problem. Sure.
If I'm at a pub, there's an expectation
you go to a specific gendered toilet and
you're like, Do I feel safe in that?
And can I go in there?
And sometimes I've just not gone because I'm like, I'll
(19:20):
go into a men's loo and they'll only be urinals
and you're like, right, okay, I can't use those.
So now I can't go to the toilet at work if
you can make that space for people to feel comfortable going
to the loo, which is a very basic thing.
There are certain things like that where
(19:40):
it's just the experience is different.
Like cisgendered people don't have to worry about, am
I going to be able to go to the
toilet when I go out where lots of trans
people do or things like assigned female at birth
or trans masculine transgender males may still menstruate.
(20:03):
And then you go into men's toilets
and there's no sanitary bins in there.
So what do you do?
So it's like these kind of practical things
that they're quite small, but they would just
make life so much easier for people.
I think that's a big one for me because that has
(20:23):
taken me a while to get my head around as well
because you kind of tie yourself in knots as well around.
Do I pass enough to be gendered correctly and not be
approached to be in the wrong toilet, or do I pass
too much that if I continue to use the female toilets,
I get called out for being in there and you constantly
(20:44):
in this kind of like, well, which one do I go?
I'll just go to the disabled toilets
if there is one kind of thing.
So things like that would be really helpful, I think.
Wow, yeah. Do you know what?
It's so interesting because I guess when you
read about trends, rights, or when you kind
of think about the progression, which definitely feels
(21:07):
like it's sped up in the last few
years, but it's still very much far behind.
Lots of other kind of rights, the
toilet thing always comes up and I
always think, oh, okay, yeah, that's important.
But I guess I never really understood how
important that was because it's just so interesting.
There was something I saw on social media the
other day where somebody went to Appliance offices and
(21:31):
they actually had one kind of space for the
toilet and the signage was fantastic.
It was so inclusive.
So it was for every single type of person.
The person that was changing the nappy
on the symbol wasn't a woman.
There was some really great things on
there and I think that's really important.
(21:51):
But yeah, I guess it's so important, but
it's just not something I'm cisgender, so it's
not something I have to think about.
And I'm quite feminine in the way I
look as well, so I don't even ever
have to consider that as a general rule. But.
Yeah, really interesting.
Okay.
(22:11):
So then what about some of the kind of positive
things that have kind of come from your transition?
What do you know or what do you know
about yourself now that perhaps you didn't know before?
Is there anything kind of positive that's come out
of this apart from the fact that you can
actually be the identity that you are? Yeah.
(22:35):
I mean, I think that's it really it's an interesting
thing because I think for some people, it's really a
moment for celebration or it's something to be proud of.
But for me, it just felt like it's
just something that just needed to happen.
(22:56):
Do you know what I mean?
It's not something that I really celebrate, but it's more like I'm
on this path and I need to go on this path.
Perhaps if I was younger and I'd done it then then
it probably wouldn't have got to the point where it felt
like that and maybe it would have felt a bit more
like this is amazing, and I feel really great about it.
(23:17):
But also it's a really long process.
I've been transitioning for two years, but I'm nowhere near
I don't know if it ever ends, to be honest.
Yeah.
I think the positive things is just not having to think about
(23:37):
it all the time, having to be like, worrying about I need
to do this thing, but I don't want to do it.
It's done now.
I can just get on with it, if that makes sense. Yeah.
And I think it's funny because I spend a lot
of time in a lot of my workshop, especially the
early ones with clients where we're trying to get them
to understand the business case of DNI.
(23:59):
And we obviously talk about the human
aspect, but we're also talking about that.
Do you know what?
If people can just come into work as
themselves, they'll probably do a better job.
They'll be more productive, they'll be more collaborative, they'll have
better outcomes, and they'll have a desire to want to
do a good job day in, day out, because they're
not trying to kind of hide a little bit about
(24:20):
themselves or having to second guess everything and try and
remember what it is that they've kind of spoken to
different people about and things like that.
So I think that it doesn't just go for work,
of course it goes for life as well, isn't it?
Yeah, I think this is a thing as well for me
with being open about it, because I think if you were
(24:41):
and there are people who prefer to stay stealth and they
don't want anyone to know, but the mental overload of that
to be like even now, actually, whenever you do, I assume
you do lots of things like this already.
But when you have a workshop and you do kind of like
an Energizer or you do like a get to know you thing.
(25:02):
And then sometimes you might have to bring
a picture of you in as a kid
and you're like, don't want to do that.
Yes, because I don't need people or for
a long time actually recording my voice.
I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to
hear it back and I don't listen to it back.
But that kind of like put me off doing a lot
(25:23):
of company wide video meetings and stuff that I just back
out of a little bit now because I know they're all
recorded, but things like that, I think even though I'm really
open about it, things like that still make me cringe.
Like the idea that there's a recording of me, like
(25:44):
three years ago where my voice is very different or
a presentation file with my old name on it.
To know those kind of things completely stealth, you would
have to be constantly thinking, what am I saying?
Am I saying something that would give me away
so I don't have to worry about that bit?
(26:05):
And these things, although I don't like the idea of
them, they don't impact my day to day work.
I still have lots of meetings.
I still do demos every two weeks.
I still talk to my clients all the time.
But yeah, it's just that when I think about
it, I'm like, oh, no, I'm not going to
go back and listen to those recordings.
But it's interesting because obviously there's a prerecorded version
(26:27):
of me and my working experience in this company,
and now there's another one who followed me through
this journey knows me both before and after.
And in some ways that's kind of like, good,
because we can talk openly about these things.
In some ways it's like, well, maybe I would
(26:48):
rather they didn't know or they weren't thinking, oh,
as an example, I think about a year ago
with COVID, obviously we weren't meeting anyone.
And then when the lot down lifted, we had our
first face to face social with the company and I
was quite worried about that because I'm like, no one's
(27:10):
seen me for a year and I know they're going
to be like, oh, your voice has changed.
Oh, you look a bit different.
And even though they don't say those things, I can
see it playing out in their faces because like I
said before, I'm hyper aware of these tiny nuances.
Yeah.
So that happens.
If I haven't seen anyone for a long time and then I
see them and I'm like, what's their reaction going to be?
(27:32):
I mean, it's all been positive, but
yeah, there's always these mental, constant mental
things that are going on. Yes.
I think if you are, it's better
that I can talk about those things.
I'm not constantly worried about it.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think it must be exhausting as well to just constantly
(27:54):
have to kind of think around these things so often.
One of the words you've mentioned quite a
few times, I just want to make sure
that it's nice and clear for the viewers.
I was about to say they won't be watching this.
The listeners is the word stout.
Do you think that you can help explain
that just for the listeners, just in case
it's a word they've never heard before? Yeah, sure.
(28:15):
So for some trans people, they don't want
anybody to know that they are trans.
So I think once you get to some people
get to a certain point in their transition where
what they call pass, you wouldn't second guess their
gender in public, that kind of thing.
Once they get to that point, they're like, you know
(28:37):
what, nobody needs to know anymore that I'm a trans
person and therefore I am not going to tell anyone
and I'm going to live in the agenda that I
want to be and nobody needs to know my past.
And we call that stealth.
So they're now stealth.
They don't disclose their status. Yes.
Which I can imagine for some people is a safety thing
(28:59):
because it can be extremely unsafe to be a trans person.
So you wouldn't want anybody to know. Yeah.
But I think a lot of people just on the flip
side of that, that you don't have to be on hormones
or have corrective surgery or dress a certain way to be.
(29:23):
You're not more trans than someone else.
So I think there is a slight danger in that
language, whereas you assume that you're not trans unless you
go down this path that I've been down.
So there's a lot of language I think that
we use in the trans community that can be
exclusionary that we shouldn't really be using.
(29:45):
But still, I think it's important for people to know that
there are people who just don't want anyone to know.
And that's okay. Yeah.
And that danger thing is so real
for so many people, isn't it?
And you hear horror stories, unfortunately, in the UK,
just as well as other parts of the world.
So I can totally understand why some people would
(30:07):
want to not kind of have the trans word
attached to them, but also not just from a
danger perspective, I'm sure, actually, just from the way
that they feel about themselves and what have you.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, for some people, some people
are really proud of their status.
Other people are like, it's not a thing.
(30:29):
I'm not super proud of it,
but I don't mind people knowing.
But then some people are like, why would I tell anyone?
I'm no different to anyone else.
So you know what I mean?
It's that kind of everyone's different. Yeah.
And you say you're not proud of it.
And actually, I know you quite well, so I know
you're quite a private person, so I kind of get
(30:51):
where you're coming from with that and that kind of
thought process I was just thinking about.
Because you were saying earlier about how
there were things recorded three years ago.
I'm just thinking, well, maybe we shouldn't make
you listen to this in previous time.
Yeah, I probably won't.
(31:12):
We'll lose it somewhere in the archives. Don't worry.
I'll make sure you never have to
hear it after we release it.
I've got a few more things that I'd love
to kind of touch base with you on, because
I love chatting to you anyway, you know that.
(31:33):
But I think that this is such an important
topic for so many different types of people, especially
those people that don't really understand what it's like
to be trans in the working world.
So we're talking obviously specifically about work, but I
think what would be really good to know, in
your opinion, and obviously you're one person, you don't
(31:54):
represent every single person that is trans.
But is there anything that you wish
your industry kind of did better to
support people from the LGBT plus community?
Or maybe you think there's one thing
that your industry does better, perhaps in
other industries in that respect? Yeah.
(32:16):
I think there are places in the industry
that are doing better, and I think they
are kind of trailblazing a little bit.
And I think us too.
Where I work is one of those where DNI is
super important, as is the hiring process, to make sure
it's as inclusive as possible, that kind of stuff.
(32:37):
But I think there's a long way to go.
I think across the industry as a
whole, I think it's the case for
any marginalized group that needs more support.
So, yeah, I think there are companies that are doing
better than others, but it is great that there are
(32:58):
those out in front and paving the way and making
sure that diversity is, number one, having a diverse workforce.
It has so many benefits, as you know.
So that's something that is really
important to me as well.
It's like I don't want to work places that aren't
diverse because it's everywhere should be like hiring practices, helping
(33:26):
people on board, all that kind of thing.
To make sure it's as inclusive as
possible, I think is really important.
I think probably the creative industry
probably is further ahead than others.
Creative people in general, I suppose, should be
(33:48):
more open to wider groups of people.
But yeah, obviously there's always a long
way to go on these things. Yeah.
It's interesting, though.
I work in some offices where there's some fantastic
social enterprises and different charities and stuff, and people
just doing really good things for the world.
(34:08):
And there's a really great recruitment company there
called Found by Few, which I'm sure they're
not going to mind me mentioning here.
And they do a lot of work, not just on
that kind of creative kind of space with regards to
recruitment, but they really strive to change the face of
the creative industries because a lot of the time.
(34:30):
It's a very similar type of person that is
being hired and promoted and what have you and
kind of in the startup spaces and stuff itself.
And I've loved watching them grow.
I mean, they've grown.
Their growth has been fantastic because they're really
about the individual and they're really about changing
the way that the creative industry recruits.
But I also love how much they're learning as well.
(34:52):
They're constantly bringing speakers in and experts in all
these different areas so that they can make sure
that they're keeping their knowledge topped up as well.
So I wonder then actually, whether there's some
work in the creative industry as to be
fair, with all the industries where it is
that let's just have some conversations.
Let's just really start to get to hear
it from somebody that's experiencing this particular marginalization.
(35:17):
And I think that is how you breed diversity.
That's how you start to really attract
different types of people to the industry.
And then, as you say in the
business case for diversity, it's phenomenal.
The data is there, the revenue increase
and the retention and all of these
fantastic things, the customer loyalty.
(35:38):
And also there's a huge percentage of people coming through
the talent pool now in the creative industries as well
as some others that they won't, like you said, like
yourself, you won't go and work somewhere.
You won't go and take your talent and your potential
and your skills and your ideas to an organization that
isn't diverse and doesn't treat people in that way.
(35:59):
So it's not just about right now and
making sure that companies are doing the right
thing and being fantastic right now.
It's actually the future.
I just don't think those companies are going to last.
I don't think they're going to be able to
because millennials are coming through and even the generation
that's kind of being built up in schools now,
they're just not going to want to work for
those types of companies that aren't diverse.
(36:21):
Yeah, for sure. Definitely.
Okay.
So I just wanted to ask you just for
some kind of advice or some suggestions just about
how organizations can support people that are maybe transitioning,
or perhaps they're thinking about communicating their transition, or
(36:43):
perhaps they've already transitioned and they want to communicate
that with their organizations, because I think you've had
such a good experience with us, too.
And big shout out to them.
I just think it's fantastic.
The way that they treat the human beings
in their organization is really a lesson to
be learned for lots of other organizations.
(37:04):
But the first piece of advice I think I'd
love to get from you and it's your opinion.
So of course, lots of people have different ideas,
but how can managers talk about kind of trans
issues or conversations about trans issues with their teams?
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things that I did that
(37:25):
I really appreciated was shortly after I came out.
They got in a call.
Now they got in this trans speaker to come in
and talk to everybody who worked there about what it
was like to be trans, how to support trans people,
how to use the correct language and terminology.
(37:46):
And they've done a few of those gendered intelligence.
They were called, they came in and
they've done a couple of talks.
And for me, that just took all of the
pressure off of me having to do that.
And it was like they got someone in because I
feel like some people don't want to have the conversation
because they're worried about saying the wrong things or they
(38:07):
don't know how to ask a question in a way
that they feel like won't be offensive.
I think they steer away from it and they don't ask.
But I think having gendered intelligence come in,
they could ask that person these questions.
And it wasn't such a personal
level, you know what I mean?
(38:28):
Like, they could ask the hard
questions and get the answers.
So that was really great for me.
So I think there are lots of resources, and I think
there are things you can do to learn more about it
and the trans experience and try to be an advocate.
And I think that's the thing.
(38:49):
It's kind of like finding people who you feel would
be an advocate for you and help support you.
Or if you're like, I want to tell
someone this, what do you think about it?
Not that you would ask them permission, but just
sort of it's difficult because I had so much
(39:12):
support from everyone that I don't know specifically.
But I think that if you can get just more
knowledge on what it's like to live in a different
world, for example, then I think that helps for someone
who's working somewhere who's thinking about coming out.
(39:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I think trust the relationships you
have, like your strongest relationships you have and
talk to those people first, and they can
help support you in what you need.
Yeah.
I love that gendered intelligence as well.
(39:54):
I love that they brought these people in because
us to then created a safe space for people
to be able to ask these questions.
They also took the pressure off you having
to be the number one trans expert because
you were probably still learning, and you probably
are still learning now about your own experience,
but also that of the community in general.
(40:15):
So I think it's great that you
bring in these this is 100%.
What organizations should be doing is bringing in the
experts, don't rely and don't force that person or
that group of people to be the spokespeople, because
even if they are comfortable talking about it, they
don't want to talk on behalf of everyone else.
That's not really how it works.
(40:35):
And like I said, it took the pressure
off you, which I think is fantastic.
And yeah, big round of applause
for them for doing that.
So it's a simple thing as well.
And I think it doesn't just work,
obviously, when we're talking about trends, kind
of areas and things like that.
It works across all the different marginalized groups.
And I'm a big advocate for getting expert speakers
in to really kind of open up that conversation
(40:57):
and create a space where people can ask questions
because especially if it's something that they're not used
to talking about on a daily basis, they're going
to be intrigued, they're going to be curious, and
like I said, they're not going to want to
step a foot wrong and kind of don't ask
any questions because they're worried about getting it wrong.
So.
Yeah, really love that. Yeah. Okay.
So then what piece of advice would you give
(41:20):
other organizations that are kind of working with this?
So we've got a really great piece of
advice there around bringing in expert speakers.
Is there any other kind of advice that
you would give to another organization thinking about
kind of opening up this conversation?
Yeah, I guess there's the
(41:41):
emotional support around these things.
And to acknowledge, I think that somebody who's going
through the process of transition or even thinking about
coming out are in a very vulnerable space.
They are putting themselves out there.
And for me, that was massive because, as
you say, I'm a very private person.
(42:03):
I'm topic of conversation.
I mean, I don't know if that's the case
because obviously the award didn't help out that way.
I think for even just to recognize that somebody is
going through big feelings and they may need some space.
(42:26):
Obviously, we're businesses and stuff, but I genuinely think
that if people don't have the space to process
these things, then you're not going to get out
of them what you need as a business anyway.
Give them space.
Understand that they might need
time off for medical reasons.
(42:48):
Some people do, some people don't.
US, too, has always been very good to say if you
need time off to go and do whatever you see a
doctor, for example, you can go ahead and do that.
So I've not felt like I had
to use my holidays or unpaid leave.
They've been supportive of all of that.
(43:08):
And if I ever feel like the whole company actually
has mental wellness days where if you feel like you
need to go away and have selfcare, you can.
I mean, I know not everybody can do that, but
I think there is just something in acknowledging that it's
a big deal for people to be going through that
and they don't need added pressure of performance on top.
(43:35):
I think that's the emotional side of it.
But then I think there's like more of a
practical side of things, like helping get paperwork sorted
out, helping change names on pay slips, or sorting
pension names out, which I've not managed to do
because the pension company are being a pain.
But there are certain things that there's
(43:57):
a lot of misunderstanding about what you
need in order to change your identity.
Lots of people think you need
a gender recognition certificate, for example.
That's not actually the case for a lot of things.
Or some people think you need a rubber stamped deep
pole from a solicitor that also isn't the case.
(44:18):
But then you end up coming up against these gates
all the time of people and you have to go
in and explain, no, you don't need to do this.
So I think there is could be some awareness
from the company to be like, just help get
the paperwork sorted out, help understand that gender recognition
(44:38):
certificates have a whole Hoops to jump through and
many years to get one sorted out.
So do what you can before you even get that
those sorts of things are really helpful because there is
a lot of paperwork to get sorted out.
Yeah. That's so interesting.
(44:59):
I never really thought about the paperwork aspect, of
course, because if you're Cisgender, you've got your birth
certificate, you've got your passport, everything's kind of set
up on the name that you already have.
So, yeah, interesting. Okay.
That's definitely something for me to go in
and have a bit of a reflect about.
And hopefully people that are listening to
this, that's something for them to have
a little bit of a think about.
(45:19):
And one of the things I always talk about
with my clients, whether it's in a facilitated session
or maybe just a conversation with the executive or
whatever, is about this idea that actually ask the
person what it is that they need.
Because like you said, everybody who is transitioning
or considering or they've already transitioned, they're going
(45:40):
to have very different needs and they're going
to want very different levels of support.
So I think that that's something that your organization
did really well, which I think you'll probably agree.
I'm getting lots of nod.
People can't hear that, but I'm getting lots of nod.
Yeah.
I mean, it's all been on my own time frame.
(46:01):
There's never been any pressure to take things
as and when I'm ready for them and
I let them know what's going on.
Yeah.
I think there is that everyone's
journey is different and everyone's going
to need something slightly different.
(46:24):
I think that goes with everything.
I've just been reading a really great book around
hidden disabilities, and the author has actually gone and
spoken to so many tons and tons of people.
And actually at the end of each of the conversations, they
said, okay, so what is it that you can ask for?
What would you ask for your organization to help you?
(46:45):
And they've given these really great tips at
the end for each of these different things.
But the whole concept of the book is
just treat the individual as an individual.
You might think you know everything about this
particular topic or this particular marginalized group.
But actually you don't because
every single person is different.
So I think if that's the big takeaway
(47:06):
from this conversation that people can take, I
think that's a really great one.
And the fact that it doesn't
always have to be horror stories.
We know that there's some hideous things that happen
out there, but sometimes organizations get it right.
And I'm so glad that you're one of the
people that had that experience because you're my friend
and I'm biased, what can I say?
(47:29):
But no, I do. I think it's great.
And I hope there are people listening to this
now that might maybe go about something slightly differently
when they're kind of dealing with conversations around this
or perhaps even if they're managing somebody that comes
to them and says, oh, Hi, I'm transitioning.
What support can you give me?
They might have a little bit more of an
idea now of how they can do that.
(47:51):
I've got one last question before I thank you.
And we kind of sign off, which is what
piece of advice would you give to young professionals
who are transitioning or who have transitioned young professionals.
Yeah.
(48:14):
I think what I'd say to young professionals, I think is
if you get any kind of warning bells or anything in
the hiring process or when scoping out where to work or
who to work with, trust you got and sorry.
Looking for onesies that's a little
(48:38):
R1 life of working from home. Yeah.
You can chop that bit out.
I might not.
But yeah, I think that's it I think when you're young
men thinking back a long time ago for me, especially when
you're trying to get into a new career, and I think
(49:01):
sometimes you feel like you have to take a substandard experience
just to get on the ladder, I really hope.
And I feel like things are changing
now and there are more opportunities and
that people wouldn't have to do that.
I know that's an idealistic point of view, but I feel
like there is something entrusting your gut and knowing that whether
(49:23):
it's right or not, because if you're also having to deal
with not being cisgendered or in any kind of group, that
a small group of people, then you're like that's just something
on top of that as well.
Also chat people who work there.
(49:46):
I think the other thing is just in general, support
wise, outside of the working world as well, there are
loads of support groups and social meet ups and stuff.
And if you can get to those, then you can
talk to those people about their experiences in working in
(50:06):
certain places and get guidance, I suppose, from there.
Yeah.
The main thing is if you get any alarm
bells, then trust your gut and move me.
Yeah, you're normally right.
Yeah, exactly.
Listen, thank you so much.
(50:27):
I've got like ten new ways that I
can have a conversation around this now.
And some really great tips that I can take forward,
but I love this and I think I know you're
a private person, I know you don't want to be
the spokespeople for kind of trans awareness and things like
that, but I do think it's really helpful to hear
from somebody that has and is going through the transition
(50:50):
period and I've certainly learned a few new things and
hopefully I'll listen this out as well.
But thank you so much.
What a fantastic podcast.
Hopefully you enjoyed that as much as we did
and you've taken away as many tips and suggestions
(51:12):
as we have to support people in your organization
who are transitioning, regardless of which part of the
journey they're at the moment.
We loved having this conversation.
If you want to have more conversations like this or you
want to just talk about your DNI learning in general, then
get in touch with us or go and have a look
at our website, which is zing Revolution dot co.
(51:34):
Uk thanks, we'll see you on the next one.
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