April 7, 2022 • 51 mins
In this podcast we are very excited to be joined by the amazing Joanne, who has spent her life working for non-profits to help create social mobility and is now a Social Mobility Coach for The Baytree Centre in South London. We discuss the work her and I do at the centre which is a social inclusion charity for women and girls and what we can all do to support organisations like this that give so much to our communities and to women and girls.
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(00:06):
Hello and welcome to our second Zing Learning
podcast of the season titled A Conversation with
where we get together with inspiring individuals once
Fortnite to chat about what they're doing in
their careers and how they're enhancing equality, diversity,
inclusion, and belonging.
(00:26):
We chat about important DNI topics and get practical advice
and tips so we can give DNI teams, HR leaders,
MDS and CEOs a greater opportunity to create a fairer,
more inclusive and more knowledgeable working environment.
In this podcast, we are very excited to be
(00:46):
joined by the amazing Joanne, who has spent her
life working for nonprofits to help create social mobility
and is actually now a social mobility coach for
the Bay Tree Center in South London.
We discussed the work her and I do at the center,
which is a social inclusion charity for women and girls and
what we can do to support organizations like this that give
(01:10):
so much to our communities and to women and girls.
So grab a Cupper, kick back, and enjoy the podcast.
Hey Joanne, we have been working together for some time
on a variety of programs for the women at the
Bay Tree Center where you work full time.
(01:33):
So I wanted to talk to you today about
the incredible work that the center does for girls
and women in Lambeth, including some of the most
vulnerable, obviously in our community as well.
I want to talk about the work that you
directly do and also some of the kind of
biggest challenges you think the women that we support
(01:53):
actually face on a day to day basis.
Plus, and I know it's asking a lot, but
I think some advice for people looking to see
how they can help with support in the center
or even local community centers in their space.
Let's start then with your background.
What kind of led you to the bakery work?
(02:15):
Well, Bay Tree has a special place in my heart.
I've known bakery for about 15 years now, and
that's quite a short time in Baitry's history.
I moved to London in 2005 and
I met up with a friend here.
I moved to London to do an internship.
(02:35):
I worked at the Unhear, which is the
UN refugee agency, for a few months.
And I also met up with a friend of mine, Carmen
Gonzalez, who is one of the Dynamos behind Baytree Center.
So she was one of the people who set it up.
And in 2005, I came to Baytree to volunteer.
(02:57):
I run a photography project for girls, and then
I went away, I got another job, and I
came back 15 years later to work. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Actually, I didn't know that you did that with
the photography piece, so that's quite nice to hear.
(03:18):
Okay. Wow.
So 15 years kind of volunteering, and then you
came for what was it the last seven years? She said.
Was it 2015 or did I?
No, I've been at Bay Tree now, so I've
been working in my current role for a year.
Okay.
Before I was at Bay Tree, I did 15 years working
in a very small charity called Fad, a youth charity.
(03:42):
As small as we were two people, our biggest.
We were five people, and we were working to
widen access to the fashion industry for young people.
So working with a lot of groups who are
underrepresented and working together with the industry to get
young people opportunities and get them into jobs.
(04:03):
So I worked on that for 15 years, and I came back
to Bay Tree, I should say, in May of last year.
So just about a year ago now.
Oh, Fab, like I said, we work together.
So I know what you do and kind of
the incredible work you do to support the women,
but I guess our listeners probably don't.
(04:23):
So could you give us a little
whistle stop tour around what your role
is and how you're supporting these people?
Well, my role is social mobility.
First of all, I should say that in Baytree,
we have a women's service and a girls service,
and I work in the women's service with adults.
We're a women and girls only center.
(04:46):
So I work with women, and my
job role is social mobility coach, which
probably doesn't make things much clearer.
Very wide reaching role.
I give one to one support to women who come to us.
It's about goal setting and helping
them to achieve their objectives.
(05:08):
A lot of the women who we work with are migrant women.
So bakery is open to all.
But a lot of the women who come
to us in Lambeth are migrant women.
And I work particularly with women from
the Latin American community and from the
French speaking community as well.
Others of my colleagues with different languages and
(05:30):
different skills work with different groups of women.
So I have a case of about 25 women who I
support, one to one who I have long term relationships with.
And we help out in five areas.
So those are family wellbeing,
(05:51):
education, employment and finance.
So one thing I love about the role
is that it's really wide ranging, and none
of those things exist in isolation.
So it's really nice to be able to work
together with women to problem solve and to really
make a difference, a meaningful difference in their lives.
(06:12):
Yeah, that meaningful difference is something.
And you and I talk about this quite a lot with
them when we think, oh, wow, are we really pushing forward?
Are we really helping these women?
And you're like, yeah, we're making a real
difference to their lives and to their future.
So, yeah, I think it's incredible the work that you do.
(06:32):
And I know there's lots of other social mobility
coaches that work in the bakery in different kind
of areas, but yeah, 25 women is a lot. That's a lot.
And there are five different pillars in my
experience since working with the Bay Tree.
I think I've always known that there were
challenges, especially for migrant women, especially for women
(06:54):
perhaps that are fleeing domestic violence.
Perhaps they have not been able to be
financially independent before for various different reasons.
Perhaps it's tradition or whatever else.
But since I've worked at the Bay Tree, I've noticed
how difficult it can be to balance all of those
five areas for the women to be able to get
(07:15):
employment and to be able to get perhaps a home,
even a roof over their heads.
And you need this thing over here
to get this thing over here.
And then the policy is this, and you
can't get work if you haven't got this.
And it's just a lot, isn't it?
And it's something that when you can
help these women, it is extremely meaningful,
(07:36):
and it can be such a Tangle.
And I think, as you say, everything's interrelated,
and particularly with well being, I think women
and Mums in particular often put themselves last.
So it really is a privilege to be able to
help women untangle some of this stuff and to set
objectives and make priorities and start making a difference.
(08:01):
Yeah.
And Tangle, that's a really great way to
describe it, I think, because it can feel
exceptionally overwhelming for us to help the women.
And I'm only supporting on an employment space and
perhaps a bit of confidence that goes alongside that.
So I can feel that I can't even imagine what
it must be like for some of these women whose
(08:22):
first language isn't English, even just the health care aspect.
A lot of the time is really challenging trying to
get the women a doctor and things like that. Okay.
So, I mean, listen, I'm always really
impressed with the work that you do.
I think it's awe inspiring that you go
in, day in, day out and keep doing
this and keep supporting these women.
I guess I'd like to hear from your point of
(08:44):
view what's been your biggest success or perhaps your fondest
memory of the work that you've been doing so far.
I'm going to go through in between those
things and talk about what I enjoy most.
But I think what makes what we do
at Bay Tree unique is the longterm support.
(09:04):
And what for me, is the cornerstone of
progress and success is being able to form
onetoone really human relationships with women.
There's lots of people in the
sector who offer good advice.
There's lots of places where you can
drop into to get information and things.
But we're really about this sounds cheesy,
(09:26):
but going on a journey with women.
So traveling with women and working through things
with them, and it doesn't finish at the
end of three months or a year.
There are women at Baytree who have been there
a lot longer than I have and who will
still be there in a few years time.
And that's a real joy.
(09:46):
I think that long term relationship, and
I think the humanness of the relationship
as well, because it's quite wide.
We get to know women really well, and
that enables us to support better as well.
So I enjoy so much the relationships that I'm able to
have, and I really enjoy being able to have those relationships
(10:06):
with people who I wouldn't meet otherwise and who I might
not meet in my day to day life.
So that's really enriching for me.
Yeah, I disagree with the cheesy
thing completely, by the way.
(10:27):
I think that there's something really powerful
in that human aspect as well.
And I totally agree.
I mean, I've only been working with
the center probably a couple of years,
but there's some real big successes.
And when you see these women light up, because
obviously I'm only working on the employment side, but
(10:47):
when I can see them get an opportunity to
train or study or they feel like they're getting
the support that they've been asking for lots of
different places before they've come to the bakery, I
think it's a real positive thing, isn't it?
I think it definitely kind of puts a skip in
my step when I leave the center and I spend
time with someone and we've been able to help them.
(11:07):
It does make you feel like it's not an impossible task.
So, yeah, not at all cheesy, I think that's fantastic.
I'm going to flip it on the other side,
and I'm going to ask you a question now
about the biggest challenge when you're supporting the women.
Now, I appreciate there's lots, because I've
been working with you for some time.
I've seen the hostile kind of policies that
(11:28):
our government has and the way in which
women are treated, especially if they're migrant women.
But from your point of view, what do
you think has been say the biggest challenge?
I think that the biggest challenge
is just the complexity of systems.
Our welfare system is so complex.
(11:51):
I'm born and bred here.
English is my first language, and I find some of
it just impenetrable for people with lower levels of literacy
or for whom English isn't the first language.
It's really hard to understand and to navigate.
And there exists a role called benefits advisor.
So you have to have a professional person
(12:13):
whose job is to understand the system.
I mean, something's wrong there.
Things are difficult to access.
So the pandemic accelerated
moving of everything online.
And we're here chatting online, which is lovely.
And in some ways it's really
democratized things in other ways.
It's actually created more barriers.
So if you don't have a computer at home,
(12:33):
if you don't have access to WiFi, if you're
not computer literate, or if you're not that literate
at all, it creates huge barriers.
Even things like booking a GP appointment is near
on impossible for a lot of our women.
Making applications, job applications,
making applications for benefits.
It's all there on the computer.
(12:53):
And if that is not easy for
you to access, you're shut out.
So I think digital literacy and digital access is a
big barrier, a big obstacle for a lot of people.
And I think we don't talk about that.
We talk about it as this great enabler
and great democratization, but it isn't always.
(13:14):
And you also lose that human
contact, which is so important.
Yeah, you said that's.
Why haven't you about the human contact.
I think we've experienced this with programs that we've run
for the women, and we've done a variety of them.
We're working on a new project right now.
It is that people really do enjoy coming in
and spending time with the other women, realizing they're
(13:37):
not the only people in this position and realizing
that actually there are things in their way that
are making it really difficult.
But, yeah, it's just baffling.
But you're so right, the benefits advisor.
So there's a full time job.
It's just madness.
And I think that human element I'm going
(13:57):
to keep saying it human is so important.
And so many of our women
at Bay Tree are really isolated.
We're here in the middle of this great teaming
city, which is wonderful in lots of ways, but
there's a lot of people within it who are
very isolated from what's going on in it, who
for financial reasons, for social reasons, for economic reasons,
(14:18):
can't access what's all around them.
So I think the pandemic has heightened that.
So I think, as you say, the
human element for us is really key.
Yeah.
It's something that I talk a lot about to
my clients in anything we do really is let's
remember D and I might be kind of a
(14:39):
buzz phrase, but actually we're just talking about humans.
We're all trying to do our best.
We're all kind of trying to do
our work and what have you.
I'd love to understand a little bit more about what you
wish people knew about the type of work you did.
Are there any kind of misconceptions about the type
of work you do, or is there something that
(14:59):
you say, do you know, I wish the public
knew this about this type of work.
I think what I wish people knew is how able
and skilled and competent the women we work with are
going to start from the beginning that perhaps a lot
of our women don't speak perfect English, but they might
speak four other languages, and most of us in the
(15:22):
UK don't speak many languages.
So as I say, a lot of the
women we work with are migrant women.
They're often doing quite meaning on and
low paid work in this country.
It doesn't mean they haven't qualified in another country
as a nurse or as another kind of professional.
(15:42):
Many of them are doing incredible work
juggling childcare and working and caring responsibilities.
So many things.
And I think we don't always see that finding out
a little more like going beyond the stereotypes and the
accents and the obvious and digging a bit deeper.
(16:04):
Yeah, I might steal that tagline for my
courses, because you could say that with anything
right to do with the human aspect.
It's really interesting because this is exactly the challenge
that I've had with the employability work that I've
been doing with the women, which, you know, because
we speak pretty much every week, I obviously would
(16:25):
never mention any names because the women that we
work with, some of them are in vulnerable positions.
But I've definitely worked with quite a
few women now who are extremely charismatic.
Their English is very good.
Like you said, they've been juggling
childcare and work really well.
(16:46):
They've been kind of pushing forward, even though
they've had these barriers put up against them.
And they're super capable in lots of different ways.
I've had people that were
teachers in their previous countries.
I've had people that were data analysts, I've had
nurses, all sorts of really fantastic kind of careers.
Yet we really struggle to get
(17:07):
their foot through the door.
And it's because of that lack of experience
within the UK, or perhaps the certificate doesn't
transfer over to this side over here.
And of course, I appreciate that the employment
space is just so jam packed anyway.
And this is where we spend a lot of time
with the women, with their CVS and helping them to
(17:28):
know where to look for work and how to adapt
their CVS according to the jobs and things like that.
But it definitely is a real slog.
And there was one woman in particular that I was hoping
to find some work in particular, again, no kind of need
for detail and the Hoops that I had to jump through
to help this person to get the work.
(17:51):
If that was me, I would have given up.
But because I was doing it on behalf of that person and
take away the fact that English is my first language so I
can read all of the forms they need us to fill in.
I can chase them asking exactly what do they mean by
this reference and what do they mean by this thing?
And it took us, I think, nine
months to get this person some work.
And it was actually just temporary work because
(18:12):
actually I thought if they could meet this
person, this person could do this incredible work
that's going to talk for itself.
We just need to kind of get that foot in the door.
But nine months it took me I
think we're talking about the same person.
We're talking about some work in the health service and someone who
would be a joy to see at the end of your bed,
like if I was sick and she appeared feeling better.
(18:34):
I mean, she makes me feel better every time I see her.
And as you say, we have
a crisis, so we're lacking workers.
There's all these positions unfilled.
What's the gap here?
And then you've got someone who's really capable,
really competent, a joy to be around.
(18:55):
He's desperate to work and
you're making it really hard.
I feel the same.
I'm helping someone today do an application for her.
She wants to do some work during school time.
She's got young children and she was
applying to be a lunchtime supervisor.
She's so well qualified.
She's done years of working care.
She's food hygiene qualified.
(19:16):
She's got all the skills.
Brilliant person to have around.
Downloaded one application form, 14 pages, 14 pages of
application form to be a lunchtime supervisor a couple
of days a week at a school.
And even I didn't have enough time to do it
(19:36):
today and I'll help us to do it another day.
But really, yeah, it's funny.
We're to going be talking to a really amazing,
inclusive recruitment company on one of our podcasts.
And yeah, that's something that
they're battling as well.
I mean, they're in the creative industry.
They're kind of more towards the more senior end.
(19:58):
But I think it's really interesting because it's such
a barrier, not just to the women, of course,
at the VETRY center, but to everyone.
Recruitment processes are so old school.
There's just no need for them to be like that.
You're also not making space for
people that are perhaps neurodiverse.
You're not making space for people
that have kind of different needs.
(20:19):
And it is just baffling how it's so far behind
all of the other kind of human resource aspects.
Recruitment is the single biggest barrier to why
diversity is not happening in these industries.
It's not necessary.
And I'm going to dispute with you that
is old school, Zoe, because I think old
school practices were a bit more human.
(20:40):
I think there was a bit more politeness, I'm
going to say responses, letters, perhaps I'm thinking nostalgically,
but I'm thinking about people investing hours of time
in applications and then not even getting a response
and coming back to the human level.
That's usually demotivating, but also really disrespectful
(21:04):
of people's time and energy and skills.
So, yeah, I think you're really right.
There's a dinosaur in the room.
Yeah.
Maybe old school isn't the right word.
I agree with you, actually.
I think maybe there are less people
on the job market at this point.
I'm not too sure what it was, but yeah,
there definitely used to be more contact from recruiters.
(21:25):
But you're right about the demotivating aspect as well.
I've been there.
I've seen the women's shoulders drop when they just
don't hear anything back from the 30 applications that
we've spent hours and hours working on.
And we've adapted the CV in the cover letter
and we've done this and we chased it up.
We've done all of the things that
you're supposed to do to get noticed. Okay. Yeah.
(21:47):
I think we probably both agreed that recruitment is
extremely painful for the most part, for most of
us, and this is in our first language and
we're very clearly born in the UK, and we
might have kind of British sounding names, which already
takes away quite a few barriers for us.
Add to that all of the other layers of complexity.
(22:07):
But, yeah, it's interesting because schools and kind
of health care, in my experience so far
have been two of the most difficult with
regards to how antiquated the recruitment processes are.
Okay, maybe I can do a voiceover and
put that back in before I talk.
(22:28):
I think that's a little bit more right
for what I was thinking then what do
you think of some common misconceptions that people
make about the women that we work with?
I think misconceptions, I think a big
one for our women is language.
So if you're a native English Speaker of speaking the world's
(22:51):
language, and I love languages and I love the English language,
but I think we need to take a step back and
realize how privileged we are and how little effort we make
to communicate with the rest of the world.
Everybody else is doing all the work here.
And when our women, as I say, they might
be speaking their third or fourth or even fifth
(23:12):
language, and maybe they are speaking with an accent,
maybe the words come out the wrong way around,
but they've made an enormous leap.
Learning a language in midlife is not easy.
And just because somebody's speaking with an accent
doesn't mean they don't have skills, doesn't mean
they don't have personality, doesn't mean they don't
have a lot to say.
(23:32):
So I think language is a big barrier
for our women, and it's something that causes
a lot of prejudice and stereotypes as well.
You spoke about names.
So in recruitment and other things, I
think having a name that sounds like
a nonnative name can be an obstacle.
Sadly, in 2022, here we are.
(23:53):
And I think in all the systems we look at
in the housing system, in the welfare system, in the
employment system, again, here we are in 2022, and women,
50% of the population are at a massive disadvantage.
There's really systemic disadvantage here, and
(24:13):
it needs to be addressed.
We're here in a developed country where we
don't have access to affordable childcare, and that's
a huge barrier for our women.
If you've got nowhere to safely look
after your children, how can you work?
How can you fulfill your other obligations?
No, I'm just really listening because I'm just thinking about
(24:37):
that and it's actually 51%, by the way, women make
up 51% of the population in the UK.
We're pretty standard to be around
half of us are women.
So I do think the systematic challenges with
that, and we're saying child care, that people
could be like, oh, well, there are fathers
(24:59):
out there that are looking after children.
Absolutely there are.
But what happens is there's a gender kind of norm,
which is that the mum is the person that stays
home and nurtures the children and kind of raises them,
even if you're not in too traditional a setting.
That's kind of the assumption.
We had a panel a couple of weeks ago, and
one of the panelists, Grace, was talking about actually the
(25:22):
sort of things that she gets asked in interviews.
And she's again, very senior.
She's an entrepreneur doing some really great things, but
she's constantly asked about will you be able to
go on travels and stay up and do those
sorts of things because you have daughter?
And she said, I'm pretty sure the
father doesn't get asked that question.
So I think it's just really interesting that
(25:44):
that child care aspect is so rife.
And it's still very much down to the women
to be able to kind of bear the brunt
of that, but not even just childcare as well.
We're also talking about anything.
As a general rule, it tends to be the women.
And until that changes, there has to be systems
and processes in place to support these people.
(26:06):
The women to be able to go to work and to
be able to study and to have that extra dimension to
themselves that gives them an additional purpose in life and helps
them to feel like they're succeeding in different ways.
And I must say, a lot of the women who
I coach are single mums, so a very high percentage.
(26:26):
I'd go with something like 85%.
Let's give these women a medal.
They're caring for their children.
They're providing economically for their children,
do everything really well to bring
up their children really well.
Their kids are not out on the street.
They're working so hard to do well by
their children and to provide for them.
(26:47):
And we as a society, we should be giving
them medals, not making it difficult for them. Yeah.
Not adding more barriers. Absolutely.
And let's be honest as well.
I'd say almost all of these women, if not all
of them, they didn't choose to be a single mother.
So actually they've tried to make
(27:09):
do with everything that they've got.
But, yeah, it's fascinating.
I think, again, we could talk about that all day.
Now, I've mentioned the work that you and I
do around the employability, and I've mentioned that it
can be really challenging because there's lots of red
tape, there's kind of hostile government policies.
And also employers can be really
(27:30):
narrow minded in some respects.
They're kind of always looking for real extensive experience a
lot of the time, rather than looking at transferable skills
or that kind of potential that a lot of these
women have that we can see, as you know, and
we've had conversations about this before.
It can feel really exhausting and demotivating for us
(27:51):
when this is happening, because we're just trying to
push forward and trying to really help these women.
I guess what would be really helpful
for other people doing similar types of
work or considering getting involved in this?
What do you do to keep yourself motivated, to
kind of continue this amazing work that you're doing
for the women and for the community?
(28:12):
I think I sound like a bit of a stuck record.
It keeps coming back to the same thing.
It's the human interaction and
having relationships with my coaches.
It brings me so much joy.
And, you know, we laugh a lot.
Like there's some crying as well,
(28:32):
but we do laugh as well.
And it's so fulfilling to be able to have
those relationships, to be able to share experiences, to
find what you have in common, as well as
to find the things that you really disagree about.
That's really motivating for me.
And I also work with a really great
team of really skilled and interesting and experienced
(28:58):
women, which is really motivating for me, too.
And I'm also going to give a little
shout out to Brixton, which I love every
time I come out of Brixton station.
It never gets old like the life of the place.
And although it's changed a lot in the last
(29:21):
few years, it's changed in the 15 or 20
years since I've known it a lot.
It still itself, and it's got its culture,
it's got his style, and I love it.
I love Brixton.
Yeah, I'm so I get so much energy every time I
(29:42):
kind of go into the center and stuff like that.
But yeah, I think also the type of
people that it's bringing into the center as
well are so varied, they're so different.
And I would add to your motivation, kind of the things
that keep me going apart from our relationship, where we can
lean on each other when it's a little bit difficult, is
(30:04):
the fact that the women are just so brilliant.
They just keep coming back, and they just come with
such desire to want to kind of improve their lives.
And like you said, for their children, more than
anything, they want to make sure that their children
have better opportunities than they've had access to.
And that really drives me.
And there's just every little tiny win that you
(30:28):
get, whether it's an employer coming back to you
or you finally got them an interview and you
can do some interview practice with them.
It's those sorts of things that just drive me.
And I was saying to somebody the other day that
I just skip when I leave the bakery center.
It doesn't matter what's happened that day.
I skip because you just get so much from the
women, which is why that kind of motivates me to
(30:50):
keep trying and keep giving back, even with all of
this kind of red tape and these barriers and stuff.
But yeah, I mean, that kind of answers
my next question, I guess, which is around
what brings you joy in your DayToday work?
Is there anything you would add to that?
I think it's that and I think
it's just the community of it.
(31:11):
And we've got women from 18 to I'm not going to
say an upper age, but spanning the whole age range, spanning
the planet and the languages, the music, the food.
We do benefit from some really good food.
(31:32):
Women Cook like the Empanadas, the Samosas.
Ladies, thank you.
What an amazing privilege to
be involved in this community.
And with it being a women only space, I think
that does give all of us it's a safe space
(31:54):
and it's a safe place, I think, where people feel
able to express themselves and be themselves.
There's laughing, there's singing, there's Zumba.
So that brings me a lot of joy. Yeah.
I've got a massive smile on my face now
(32:15):
because I'm just thinking about all of those things,
and I'm thinking about how I do love them.
I'm just reminded of how lively the place is.
And I've got a few women in my head right
now that I'm thinking of that just bounce into the
center and they give so much of that energy to
some of the other women that perhaps new to it
(32:37):
all, perhaps they're a bit intimidating.
They don't really know kind of
what their next steps are.
But, yeah, I think for me, one of the things that really
brings me joy when I come in is when one of the
women bring someone new in, like a new woman, and they recommend
them and say, oh, so and so helped me with this.
(32:59):
And so and so and then you've got the opportunity to
help another person, which is just such a lovely feeling.
And I think the relationships that form.
I'm thinking of two women who
were like such close friends.
One was a Spanish Speaker and
one was a Cantonese Speaker.
And they had a little bit of
English, but not much, honestly, in common.
(33:20):
And they had this brilliant relationship based on,
again, coming back to being human body language
and gestures and WhatsApp translated on Google Translate.
Where else does that relationship happen?
That's a really special thing that happens in bakery
(33:41):
and probably doesn't happen out in the big world.
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah.
There's a real sense of support between the
women, not just from obviously, yourself and volunteers
like me, but actually between the community of
(34:02):
women that come in there.
You can see the friendships forming in the groups.
It's lovely. There's some pretty wild.
What that group.
I'm glad I'm not on those.
I didn't get any work done.
So I think I'd love to know a little bit of
advice from you now, because if people are listening to this,
they might be thinking, oh, well, this is helpful.
(34:24):
It's interesting to learn a little bit more.
But I guess what practical piece of advice could
you give someone who's kind of listening now and
wanting to know how to get involved, whether it's
at the bakery or whether it's with a local
woman center in their local community.
Well, I think if you're local to South London,
(34:45):
come and volunteer with us if you can, or
volunteer in your local center or charity.
I think what is really helpful for
us as charities, we're often really overrun.
And what's really helpful for us is if you email
us saying hello, this is my name, this is what
(35:05):
I do and I could offer you this.
This is what I could do for you.
So make it hand it to us on a plate, please.
Because sometimes, you know, things get busy and it's really
helpful for people to be really clear with what their
skills and experience are and what they can offer.
(35:26):
So volunteering is great if you have
time, if that's something you're up for.
We've had people, for example, where you volunteer
your HR skills and your employment skills.
We have people volunteering going to come back to
the Zumba, Zumba, dance, yoga, art, craft, floristry, all
(35:50):
kinds of different things or just time things like
reading, support, English support, lots of different things.
I think in a more general sense, I think
it's coming back to this idea of listening and
having your eyes open, listen to those around you,
(36:14):
maybe not the ones in your immediate social bubble,
but people, I think of our women sometimes, many
of them do really early morning cleaning jobs.
They're up at 03:00 A.m.
And they're coming home at 08:00 or offer
one of them a seat on the tube.
Just say hello, make some eye contact, be friendly.
(36:40):
Why didn't your observations a bit of the people around
you who they are and I'm very pro languages.
So learn a bit of French or Spanish or be
a bit wild and learn some Quechua or some Amharic
or some community languages, just a little bit.
(37:03):
Lynn had to say hello, how are you?
Use it when you can.
We've got no excuse now.
We've got Duolingo, we've got
YouTube, we've got Google Translate.
I think it's about listening and seeing who's around
(37:23):
you and making an effort to engage getting a
little bit out of your comfort zone because we
don't all have time for volunteering.
It's great if you do.
Also, if you do have some spare
cash, if you're a funder, please give.
(37:43):
Some charities are struggling at the moment, so
give from your bounty, not from your reserve.
But money doesn't go straight either.
Yeah, especially since COVID as well.
I think charities have taken such
a massive hit on the fundings.
I love that.
(38:04):
And it comes back to that human thing
again, that's like tagline for this podcast.
There's something about lifting our heads up when we're
walking down the street and engaging with people, especially
people that are perhaps from a different kind of
background or culture to us and just smiling.
And it's funny.
I'm from the Midlands originally, and actually I'm
(38:25):
up here in the Midlands at the moment.
And it's so funny how quickly you forget
that people talk to each other here.
So I was walking down a very quiet little street
and there was some kind of elderly people walking towards
me, and we were like, good morning, good morning.
Good morning kind of thing.
And I think we lose that a
little bit in London for various reasons.
But, yeah, lifting your head up and like you
(38:46):
say, learning something from somebody else's culture, whether it's
a little piece of their language or whatever it
might be to engage with those kind of people.
But yeah, love that.
I think talking from a London perspective, and I
know we're not the center of the universe, but
we're here in the middle of London.
We like to think we are, but we
(39:09):
know the rest of you are there.
We do become very cut off because there's such
a lot of hustle and it's so hard.
A lot of the time, I think about being
on the tube, you're packed in like sardines.
In a lot of those situations, we do
retreat into ourselves because we're protecting ourselves, because
(39:30):
it can be quite a harsh environment sometimes.
So we do retreat in and we put
our headphones on and we disappear inside our
minds or our books or our newspapers.
But as you say, look up sometimes.
Look up.
My daughter's got children's book called Lookup is
(39:52):
about asteroids and looking to the stars.
And I think it's a bit about look
up and see what's around you and engage
because there's so much richness there.
Yeah, definitely.
What about kind of advice you would give to perhaps
(40:13):
businesses that are looking to support this type of work,
maybe within their CSR kind of practices, maybe they're thinking
that they need to be a little bit more kind
of closely knitted to their community.
What kind of advice would you give to those businesses?
I think reach out.
Really think about what you're asking in terms of
(40:36):
recruitment and reach out to organizations or people that
you know to get advice about how you can
make your recruitment more inclusive, how you can make
your working practices inclusive and accessible, and think about
what these really skilled and able people can bring
(40:56):
to your business.
And I think it's such a good
opportunity for Bridging gaps in our society.
We're talking about Brickstone earlier
and the changes in Brixton.
We've got lots of new businesses, lots of new
people coming in, and there can often be quite
a divide between them and us, people who've been
(41:19):
here for ages and new people coming in.
But think about how you engage, engage with the
community around you and how you become a part
of it and how you give back and form
a symbiotic relationship and talk to people, ask, listen
again and do things differently.
(41:41):
Don't be afraid to do things a
bit differently and to try it out.
So things like offering some work, shadowing day or coming
in to do a talk about your business or coming
to a center like Bay Tree to demonstrate something or
to meet people or to share a skill, all of
(42:01):
those things would be really valuable.
Yeah, I love that share a skill.
I think a lot of the women that we work with,
a lot of it is down to confidence as well.
So if they could have that exposure to people
running businesses in different industries and stuff like that,
if people that were running these businesses were trying
(42:24):
to find ways to be closely knitted to their
community, those are really great ways to help build
the confidence of the women.
So they are more confident to apply for
jobs in the first place as well.
It's great that these women have got our support,
but there's a lot more women out there that
are perhaps a migrant background, perhaps they've come from
(42:45):
quite a vulnerable space and actually they don't have
the confidence to apply for any of these jobs.
And what we've seen, unfortunately, is that
some of the women and I'm sure
our listeners will understand this as well.
Some of the women around the UK, and
of course, in different parts of the world,
they're having to take on real questionable employment
(43:07):
where they haven't got a contract.
Sometimes they get paid for the work.
It can be in
potentially physically dangerous situations.
It's completely unreasonable and extremely demanding on
the kind of mental and physical health.
And there's still no guarantee at the end of
it that they'll be treated well and actually get
(43:27):
paid for the work that they do.
And we definitely see that sometimes when the women come
in, I've definitely helped to kind of educate some of
the women that I've worked with to say to them,
no, this is not the way it's done.
And we have very strict employment laws in the UK.
So let's move you.
If you enjoy doing this type of work, let's move
you at least into employment where you will be looked
(43:50):
after and you will be safe and you will be
paid for the work that you do.
So I know that that's a real big issue as well.
So I think that businesses also have a responsibility
with that to make sure that there is no
wrongdoing in any of their maybe associate businesses, perhaps
some of those smaller organizations that they might partner
(44:11):
with around that sort of thing, and also that
supplier chain as well.
It's something I work with organizations on a lot.
And I think in business these days, it's
really a great USP, isn't it, to be
ethical on a big scale, to source things
ethically and have ethical production and use sustainable
(44:32):
materials and all those things are really good.
I'm very proud of all of those things.
But let's also be ethical on a small
scale, like, let's treat our employees well.
Let's be open in our recruitment.
Let's be open to new types of people working for
us and put in some training or work experience to
(44:55):
give them the skills and experience they need.
So while the big scale ethical practice is very
welcome, let's have some small scale human coming back
to human, but human level ethical practice too.
And that can be really small.
Just how you speak to your staff, how you
communicate with them and going on from there.
(45:18):
No, listen, you know, I 100% agree with you.
Because of the way.
No, but because we've seen it, we've seen it.
We've experienced it.
You've seen it on a much more
permanent, longer term level than I have.
But yes, certainly it's something that we see
in our day to day kind of practices.
(45:40):
I think there's also another
kind of takeaway for businesses.
And this is something that really frustrates me
with the way that employers do this.
Stop constantly looking for experience.
Don't look for the exact experience of the
job that you're recruiting for, because what you're
missing out on there is potential and you're
(46:02):
missing out on those kind of transferable skills.
The other thing to think about as well, if you
want to hire someone that is exceptionally loyal and is
going to do a really good job and wants to
really kind of push themselves to do the best they
can do, you're less likely to get that from someone
that's done the job before.
They're not going to be as engaged.
You want to bring someone in that's going to learn it.
(46:22):
And I think that's why your suggestion there of
the work experience or the shadowing is great, because
it gives the women access to the experience but
also allows the employers to see, oh, okay, person
didn't have the experience, but they're fantastic, actually.
I really want to keep them on.
I think there's just so much talent out there.
(46:43):
And if recruiters keep thinking this way, they're going
to miss out on all of these fantastic women.
And recruit for attributes, don't recruit for little.
Itty bitty specific experiences
that aren't really necessary.
One of my women who is brilliant, she's a
very, very elegant, stylish lady, and she wanted to
(47:04):
work in retail, in a fashion store.
And we were looking together an advert for it
was a minimum wage retail assistant job in a
well known fashion chain, which we won't name.
And the amount of skills and experience it sounded like
you needed to be like a business CEO, like full
Dragons Den they were asking for, and then they're paying
(47:28):
you the minimum wage and treating you really badly.
It's not necessary.
You know, as you say, recruit for attributes, recruit
for people who have potential and proven ability to
work hard, to learn new things, to use their
initiative, to work in a team.
(47:49):
What you want is loyal, able,
hardworking, capable people with potential.
Yes, humans.
That's what we'll rename this podcast full of humans.
There's so many humans. So many. Yeah.
I think just to kind of round that off.
I think there is something there as well.
(48:11):
I guarantee, obviously, we're not going to
name the name not here anyway.
We can maybe chat about it
afterwards of that particular retailer.
But I can guarantee if we went into their stores,
we wouldn't be seeing all of those attributes that are
on that job description because it's a ridiculous as you're
asking for everybody to be exactly the same.
And that is, as we know,
the reason that businesses fail. Right.
(48:34):
Lots to kind of think about their lots to take away.
And I'm really hoping that our listeners have
taken something really fantastic away from that.
But yeah, thank you so much, Duran.
Obviously, I could talk to you for a million
years, and we've got lots of really cool projects
that we're working on that we can continue to
talk about these sorts of things.
But for anyone that's listening, if you are interested in
(48:56):
getting involved with anything that the Bay Tree do or
something in your local community, if you're not in the
Lambeth area, then please go and look.
And like Joanne said, these
charities are extremely under resource.
So if you don't get a response from your
first email, chase it up because you really need
to support and kind of help with that.
(49:17):
And yeah, do what you can.
Try to give an hour every week or two.
It's not too much to ask.
And you wouldn't believe the benefits that you personally
will get out of this by helping and supporting
local kind of community charities like the bakery and
the amazing work that they do.
Thank you so much for having me, Zoe.
And thank you so much.
Thank you all the incredible work you do for
(49:39):
women at Baytree Center and all the support you
give to them and to me as well.
It's really very much appreciated.
We're very grateful you do for us.
So thank you. Thank you very much. You, too. Of course.
Thanks, Sharon. Speak to you soon. Hi, Zoe. Bye. Bye.
Bye.
(50:05):
What an amazing guest.
I'm hoping you have taken away as much
as I have from that conversation there.
Joanne does some really fantastic work, and I think
it's great we've been able to give the platform
to her to share some of that work.
There were definitely some fantastic suggestions that I think
all of us could take away from that, not
just individually, but of course, as organizations as well.
(50:28):
So if we have HR leaders and MDS and
CEOs listening to this podcast, reach out and see
what you can do to support your local community.
So that's it for our second podcast.
We hope you've enjoyed listening.
If you're interested in having conversations like
this in your organization, then we're happy
to come in and support those and
(50:50):
facilitate those conversations through DNI learning.
We are in and learning.
You have been our listeners.
We can't wait to see you again on the next one.
Hello and welcome to our second Zing Learning
podcast of the season titled A Conversation with
where we get together with inspiring individuals once
Fortnite to chat about what they're doing in
their careers and how they're enhancing equality, diversity,
inclusion, and belonging.
(00:26):
We chat about important DNI topics and get practical advice
and tips so we can give DNI teams, HR leaders,
MDS and CEOs a greater opportunity to create a fairer,
more inclusive and more knowledgeable working environment.
In this podcast, we are very excited to be
(00:46):
joined by the amazing Joanne, who has spent her
life working for nonprofits to help create social mobility
and is actually now a social mobility coach for
the Bay Tree Center in South London.
We discussed the work her and I do at the center,
which is a social inclusion charity for women and girls and
what we can do to support organizations like this that give
(01:10):
so much to our communities and to women and girls.
So grab a Cupper, kick back, and enjoy the podcast.
Hey Joanne, we have been working together for some time
on a variety of programs for the women at the
Bay Tree Center where you work full time.
(01:33):
So I wanted to talk to you today about
the incredible work that the center does for girls
and women in Lambeth, including some of the most
vulnerable, obviously in our community as well.
I want to talk about the work that you
directly do and also some of the kind of
biggest challenges you think the women that we support
(01:53):
actually face on a day to day basis.
Plus, and I know it's asking a lot, but
I think some advice for people looking to see
how they can help with support in the center
or even local community centers in their space.
Let's start then with your background.
What kind of led you to the bakery work?
(02:15):
Well, Bay Tree has a special place in my heart.
I've known bakery for about 15 years now, and
that's quite a short time in Baitry's history.
I moved to London in 2005 and
I met up with a friend here.
I moved to London to do an internship.
(02:35):
I worked at the Unhear, which is the
UN refugee agency, for a few months.
And I also met up with a friend of mine, Carmen
Gonzalez, who is one of the Dynamos behind Baytree Center.
So she was one of the people who set it up.
And in 2005, I came to Baytree to volunteer.
(02:57):
I run a photography project for girls, and then
I went away, I got another job, and I
came back 15 years later to work. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Actually, I didn't know that you did that with
the photography piece, so that's quite nice to hear.
(03:18):
Okay. Wow.
So 15 years kind of volunteering, and then you
came for what was it the last seven years? She said.
Was it 2015 or did I?
No, I've been at Bay Tree now, so I've
been working in my current role for a year.
Okay.
Before I was at Bay Tree, I did 15 years working
in a very small charity called Fad, a youth charity.
(03:42):
As small as we were two people, our biggest.
We were five people, and we were working to
widen access to the fashion industry for young people.
So working with a lot of groups who are
underrepresented and working together with the industry to get
young people opportunities and get them into jobs.
(04:03):
So I worked on that for 15 years, and I came back
to Bay Tree, I should say, in May of last year.
So just about a year ago now.
Oh, Fab, like I said, we work together.
So I know what you do and kind of
the incredible work you do to support the women,
but I guess our listeners probably don't.
(04:23):
So could you give us a little
whistle stop tour around what your role
is and how you're supporting these people?
Well, my role is social mobility.
First of all, I should say that in Baytree,
we have a women's service and a girls service,
and I work in the women's service with adults.
We're a women and girls only center.
(04:46):
So I work with women, and my
job role is social mobility coach, which
probably doesn't make things much clearer.
Very wide reaching role.
I give one to one support to women who come to us.
It's about goal setting and helping
them to achieve their objectives.
(05:08):
A lot of the women who we work with are migrant women.
So bakery is open to all.
But a lot of the women who come
to us in Lambeth are migrant women.
And I work particularly with women from
the Latin American community and from the
French speaking community as well.
Others of my colleagues with different languages and
(05:30):
different skills work with different groups of women.
So I have a case of about 25 women who I
support, one to one who I have long term relationships with.
And we help out in five areas.
So those are family wellbeing,
(05:51):
education, employment and finance.
So one thing I love about the role
is that it's really wide ranging, and none
of those things exist in isolation.
So it's really nice to be able to work
together with women to problem solve and to really
make a difference, a meaningful difference in their lives.
(06:12):
Yeah, that meaningful difference is something.
And you and I talk about this quite a lot with
them when we think, oh, wow, are we really pushing forward?
Are we really helping these women?
And you're like, yeah, we're making a real
difference to their lives and to their future.
So, yeah, I think it's incredible the work that you do.
(06:32):
And I know there's lots of other social mobility
coaches that work in the bakery in different kind
of areas, but yeah, 25 women is a lot. That's a lot.
And there are five different pillars in my
experience since working with the Bay Tree.
I think I've always known that there were
challenges, especially for migrant women, especially for women
(06:54):
perhaps that are fleeing domestic violence.
Perhaps they have not been able to be
financially independent before for various different reasons.
Perhaps it's tradition or whatever else.
But since I've worked at the Bay Tree, I've noticed
how difficult it can be to balance all of those
five areas for the women to be able to get
(07:15):
employment and to be able to get perhaps a home,
even a roof over their heads.
And you need this thing over here
to get this thing over here.
And then the policy is this, and you
can't get work if you haven't got this.
And it's just a lot, isn't it?
And it's something that when you can
help these women, it is extremely meaningful,
(07:36):
and it can be such a Tangle.
And I think, as you say, everything's interrelated,
and particularly with well being, I think women
and Mums in particular often put themselves last.
So it really is a privilege to be able to
help women untangle some of this stuff and to set
objectives and make priorities and start making a difference.
(08:01):
Yeah.
And Tangle, that's a really great way to
describe it, I think, because it can feel
exceptionally overwhelming for us to help the women.
And I'm only supporting on an employment space and
perhaps a bit of confidence that goes alongside that.
So I can feel that I can't even imagine what
it must be like for some of these women whose
(08:22):
first language isn't English, even just the health care aspect.
A lot of the time is really challenging trying to
get the women a doctor and things like that. Okay.
So, I mean, listen, I'm always really
impressed with the work that you do.
I think it's awe inspiring that you go
in, day in, day out and keep doing
this and keep supporting these women.
I guess I'd like to hear from your point of
(08:44):
view what's been your biggest success or perhaps your fondest
memory of the work that you've been doing so far.
I'm going to go through in between those
things and talk about what I enjoy most.
But I think what makes what we do
at Bay Tree unique is the longterm support.
(09:04):
And what for me, is the cornerstone of
progress and success is being able to form
onetoone really human relationships with women.
There's lots of people in the
sector who offer good advice.
There's lots of places where you can
drop into to get information and things.
But we're really about this sounds cheesy,
(09:26):
but going on a journey with women.
So traveling with women and working through things
with them, and it doesn't finish at the
end of three months or a year.
There are women at Baytree who have been there
a lot longer than I have and who will
still be there in a few years time.
And that's a real joy.
(09:46):
I think that long term relationship, and
I think the humanness of the relationship
as well, because it's quite wide.
We get to know women really well, and
that enables us to support better as well.
So I enjoy so much the relationships that I'm able to
have, and I really enjoy being able to have those relationships
(10:06):
with people who I wouldn't meet otherwise and who I might
not meet in my day to day life.
So that's really enriching for me.
Yeah, I disagree with the cheesy
thing completely, by the way.
(10:27):
I think that there's something really powerful
in that human aspect as well.
And I totally agree.
I mean, I've only been working with
the center probably a couple of years,
but there's some real big successes.
And when you see these women light up, because
obviously I'm only working on the employment side, but
(10:47):
when I can see them get an opportunity to
train or study or they feel like they're getting
the support that they've been asking for lots of
different places before they've come to the bakery, I
think it's a real positive thing, isn't it?
I think it definitely kind of puts a skip in
my step when I leave the center and I spend
time with someone and we've been able to help them.
(11:07):
It does make you feel like it's not an impossible task.
So, yeah, not at all cheesy, I think that's fantastic.
I'm going to flip it on the other side,
and I'm going to ask you a question now
about the biggest challenge when you're supporting the women.
Now, I appreciate there's lots, because I've
been working with you for some time.
I've seen the hostile kind of policies that
(11:28):
our government has and the way in which
women are treated, especially if they're migrant women.
But from your point of view, what do
you think has been say the biggest challenge?
I think that the biggest challenge
is just the complexity of systems.
Our welfare system is so complex.
(11:51):
I'm born and bred here.
English is my first language, and I find some of
it just impenetrable for people with lower levels of literacy
or for whom English isn't the first language.
It's really hard to understand and to navigate.
And there exists a role called benefits advisor.
So you have to have a professional person
(12:13):
whose job is to understand the system.
I mean, something's wrong there.
Things are difficult to access.
So the pandemic accelerated
moving of everything online.
And we're here chatting online, which is lovely.
And in some ways it's really
democratized things in other ways.
It's actually created more barriers.
So if you don't have a computer at home,
(12:33):
if you don't have access to WiFi, if you're
not computer literate, or if you're not that literate
at all, it creates huge barriers.
Even things like booking a GP appointment is near
on impossible for a lot of our women.
Making applications, job applications,
making applications for benefits.
It's all there on the computer.
(12:53):
And if that is not easy for
you to access, you're shut out.
So I think digital literacy and digital access is a
big barrier, a big obstacle for a lot of people.
And I think we don't talk about that.
We talk about it as this great enabler
and great democratization, but it isn't always.
(13:14):
And you also lose that human
contact, which is so important.
Yeah, you said that's.
Why haven't you about the human contact.
I think we've experienced this with programs that we've run
for the women, and we've done a variety of them.
We're working on a new project right now.
It is that people really do enjoy coming in
and spending time with the other women, realizing they're
(13:37):
not the only people in this position and realizing
that actually there are things in their way that
are making it really difficult.
But, yeah, it's just baffling.
But you're so right, the benefits advisor.
So there's a full time job.
It's just madness.
And I think that human element I'm going
(13:57):
to keep saying it human is so important.
And so many of our women
at Bay Tree are really isolated.
We're here in the middle of this great teaming
city, which is wonderful in lots of ways, but
there's a lot of people within it who are
very isolated from what's going on in it, who
for financial reasons, for social reasons, for economic reasons,
(14:18):
can't access what's all around them.
So I think the pandemic has heightened that.
So I think, as you say, the
human element for us is really key.
Yeah.
It's something that I talk a lot about to
my clients in anything we do really is let's
remember D and I might be kind of a
(14:39):
buzz phrase, but actually we're just talking about humans.
We're all trying to do our best.
We're all kind of trying to do
our work and what have you.
I'd love to understand a little bit more about what you
wish people knew about the type of work you did.
Are there any kind of misconceptions about the type
of work you do, or is there something that
(14:59):
you say, do you know, I wish the public
knew this about this type of work.
I think what I wish people knew is how able
and skilled and competent the women we work with are
going to start from the beginning that perhaps a lot
of our women don't speak perfect English, but they might
speak four other languages, and most of us in the
(15:22):
UK don't speak many languages.
So as I say, a lot of the
women we work with are migrant women.
They're often doing quite meaning on and
low paid work in this country.
It doesn't mean they haven't qualified in another country
as a nurse or as another kind of professional.
(15:42):
Many of them are doing incredible work
juggling childcare and working and caring responsibilities.
So many things.
And I think we don't always see that finding out
a little more like going beyond the stereotypes and the
accents and the obvious and digging a bit deeper.
(16:04):
Yeah, I might steal that tagline for my
courses, because you could say that with anything
right to do with the human aspect.
It's really interesting because this is exactly the challenge
that I've had with the employability work that I've
been doing with the women, which, you know, because
we speak pretty much every week, I obviously would
(16:25):
never mention any names because the women that we
work with, some of them are in vulnerable positions.
But I've definitely worked with quite a
few women now who are extremely charismatic.
Their English is very good.
Like you said, they've been juggling
childcare and work really well.
(16:46):
They've been kind of pushing forward, even though
they've had these barriers put up against them.
And they're super capable in lots of different ways.
I've had people that were
teachers in their previous countries.
I've had people that were data analysts, I've had
nurses, all sorts of really fantastic kind of careers.
Yet we really struggle to get
(17:07):
their foot through the door.
And it's because of that lack of experience
within the UK, or perhaps the certificate doesn't
transfer over to this side over here.
And of course, I appreciate that the employment
space is just so jam packed anyway.
And this is where we spend a lot of time
with the women, with their CVS and helping them to
(17:28):
know where to look for work and how to adapt
their CVS according to the jobs and things like that.
But it definitely is a real slog.
And there was one woman in particular that I was hoping
to find some work in particular, again, no kind of need
for detail and the Hoops that I had to jump through
to help this person to get the work.
(17:51):
If that was me, I would have given up.
But because I was doing it on behalf of that person and
take away the fact that English is my first language so I
can read all of the forms they need us to fill in.
I can chase them asking exactly what do they mean by
this reference and what do they mean by this thing?
And it took us, I think, nine
months to get this person some work.
And it was actually just temporary work because
(18:12):
actually I thought if they could meet this
person, this person could do this incredible work
that's going to talk for itself.
We just need to kind of get that foot in the door.
But nine months it took me I
think we're talking about the same person.
We're talking about some work in the health service and someone who
would be a joy to see at the end of your bed,
like if I was sick and she appeared feeling better.
(18:34):
I mean, she makes me feel better every time I see her.
And as you say, we have
a crisis, so we're lacking workers.
There's all these positions unfilled.
What's the gap here?
And then you've got someone who's really capable,
really competent, a joy to be around.
(18:55):
He's desperate to work and
you're making it really hard.
I feel the same.
I'm helping someone today do an application for her.
She wants to do some work during school time.
She's got young children and she was
applying to be a lunchtime supervisor.
She's so well qualified.
She's done years of working care.
She's food hygiene qualified.
(19:16):
She's got all the skills.
Brilliant person to have around.
Downloaded one application form, 14 pages, 14 pages of
application form to be a lunchtime supervisor a couple
of days a week at a school.
And even I didn't have enough time to do it
(19:36):
today and I'll help us to do it another day.
But really, yeah, it's funny.
We're to going be talking to a really amazing,
inclusive recruitment company on one of our podcasts.
And yeah, that's something that
they're battling as well.
I mean, they're in the creative industry.
They're kind of more towards the more senior end.
(19:58):
But I think it's really interesting because it's such
a barrier, not just to the women, of course,
at the VETRY center, but to everyone.
Recruitment processes are so old school.
There's just no need for them to be like that.
You're also not making space for
people that are perhaps neurodiverse.
You're not making space for people
that have kind of different needs.
(20:19):
And it is just baffling how it's so far behind
all of the other kind of human resource aspects.
Recruitment is the single biggest barrier to why
diversity is not happening in these industries.
It's not necessary.
And I'm going to dispute with you that
is old school, Zoe, because I think old
school practices were a bit more human.
(20:40):
I think there was a bit more politeness, I'm
going to say responses, letters, perhaps I'm thinking nostalgically,
but I'm thinking about people investing hours of time
in applications and then not even getting a response
and coming back to the human level.
That's usually demotivating, but also really disrespectful
(21:04):
of people's time and energy and skills.
So, yeah, I think you're really right.
There's a dinosaur in the room.
Yeah.
Maybe old school isn't the right word.
I agree with you, actually.
I think maybe there are less people
on the job market at this point.
I'm not too sure what it was, but yeah,
there definitely used to be more contact from recruiters.
(21:25):
But you're right about the demotivating aspect as well.
I've been there.
I've seen the women's shoulders drop when they just
don't hear anything back from the 30 applications that
we've spent hours and hours working on.
And we've adapted the CV in the cover letter
and we've done this and we chased it up.
We've done all of the things that
you're supposed to do to get noticed. Okay. Yeah.
(21:47):
I think we probably both agreed that recruitment is
extremely painful for the most part, for most of
us, and this is in our first language and
we're very clearly born in the UK, and we
might have kind of British sounding names, which already
takes away quite a few barriers for us.
Add to that all of the other layers of complexity.
(22:07):
But, yeah, it's interesting because schools and kind
of health care, in my experience so far
have been two of the most difficult with
regards to how antiquated the recruitment processes are.
Okay, maybe I can do a voiceover and
put that back in before I talk.
(22:28):
I think that's a little bit more right
for what I was thinking then what do
you think of some common misconceptions that people
make about the women that we work with?
I think misconceptions, I think a big
one for our women is language.
So if you're a native English Speaker of speaking the world's
(22:51):
language, and I love languages and I love the English language,
but I think we need to take a step back and
realize how privileged we are and how little effort we make
to communicate with the rest of the world.
Everybody else is doing all the work here.
And when our women, as I say, they might
be speaking their third or fourth or even fifth
(23:12):
language, and maybe they are speaking with an accent,
maybe the words come out the wrong way around,
but they've made an enormous leap.
Learning a language in midlife is not easy.
And just because somebody's speaking with an accent
doesn't mean they don't have skills, doesn't mean
they don't have personality, doesn't mean they don't
have a lot to say.
(23:32):
So I think language is a big barrier
for our women, and it's something that causes
a lot of prejudice and stereotypes as well.
You spoke about names.
So in recruitment and other things, I
think having a name that sounds like
a nonnative name can be an obstacle.
Sadly, in 2022, here we are.
(23:53):
And I think in all the systems we look at
in the housing system, in the welfare system, in the
employment system, again, here we are in 2022, and women,
50% of the population are at a massive disadvantage.
There's really systemic disadvantage here, and
(24:13):
it needs to be addressed.
We're here in a developed country where we
don't have access to affordable childcare, and that's
a huge barrier for our women.
If you've got nowhere to safely look
after your children, how can you work?
How can you fulfill your other obligations?
No, I'm just really listening because I'm just thinking about
(24:37):
that and it's actually 51%, by the way, women make
up 51% of the population in the UK.
We're pretty standard to be around
half of us are women.
So I do think the systematic challenges with
that, and we're saying child care, that people
could be like, oh, well, there are fathers
(24:59):
out there that are looking after children.
Absolutely there are.
But what happens is there's a gender kind of norm,
which is that the mum is the person that stays
home and nurtures the children and kind of raises them,
even if you're not in too traditional a setting.
That's kind of the assumption.
We had a panel a couple of weeks ago, and
one of the panelists, Grace, was talking about actually the
(25:22):
sort of things that she gets asked in interviews.
And she's again, very senior.
She's an entrepreneur doing some really great things, but
she's constantly asked about will you be able to
go on travels and stay up and do those
sorts of things because you have daughter?
And she said, I'm pretty sure the
father doesn't get asked that question.
So I think it's just really interesting that
(25:44):
that child care aspect is so rife.
And it's still very much down to the women
to be able to kind of bear the brunt
of that, but not even just childcare as well.
We're also talking about anything.
As a general rule, it tends to be the women.
And until that changes, there has to be systems
and processes in place to support these people.
(26:06):
The women to be able to go to work and to
be able to study and to have that extra dimension to
themselves that gives them an additional purpose in life and helps
them to feel like they're succeeding in different ways.
And I must say, a lot of the women who
I coach are single mums, so a very high percentage.
(26:26):
I'd go with something like 85%.
Let's give these women a medal.
They're caring for their children.
They're providing economically for their children,
do everything really well to bring
up their children really well.
Their kids are not out on the street.
They're working so hard to do well by
their children and to provide for them.
(26:47):
And we as a society, we should be giving
them medals, not making it difficult for them. Yeah.
Not adding more barriers. Absolutely.
And let's be honest as well.
I'd say almost all of these women, if not all
of them, they didn't choose to be a single mother.
So actually they've tried to make
(27:09):
do with everything that they've got.
But, yeah, it's fascinating.
I think, again, we could talk about that all day.
Now, I've mentioned the work that you and I
do around the employability, and I've mentioned that it
can be really challenging because there's lots of red
tape, there's kind of hostile government policies.
And also employers can be really
(27:30):
narrow minded in some respects.
They're kind of always looking for real extensive experience a
lot of the time, rather than looking at transferable skills
or that kind of potential that a lot of these
women have that we can see, as you know, and
we've had conversations about this before.
It can feel really exhausting and demotivating for us
(27:51):
when this is happening, because we're just trying to
push forward and trying to really help these women.
I guess what would be really helpful
for other people doing similar types of
work or considering getting involved in this?
What do you do to keep yourself motivated, to
kind of continue this amazing work that you're doing
for the women and for the community?
(28:12):
I think I sound like a bit of a stuck record.
It keeps coming back to the same thing.
It's the human interaction and
having relationships with my coaches.
It brings me so much joy.
And, you know, we laugh a lot.
Like there's some crying as well,
(28:32):
but we do laugh as well.
And it's so fulfilling to be able to have
those relationships, to be able to share experiences, to
find what you have in common, as well as
to find the things that you really disagree about.
That's really motivating for me.
And I also work with a really great
team of really skilled and interesting and experienced
(28:58):
women, which is really motivating for me, too.
And I'm also going to give a little
shout out to Brixton, which I love every
time I come out of Brixton station.
It never gets old like the life of the place.
And although it's changed a lot in the last
(29:21):
few years, it's changed in the 15 or 20
years since I've known it a lot.
It still itself, and it's got its culture,
it's got his style, and I love it.
I love Brixton.
Yeah, I'm so I get so much energy every time I
(29:42):
kind of go into the center and stuff like that.
But yeah, I think also the type of
people that it's bringing into the center as
well are so varied, they're so different.
And I would add to your motivation, kind of the things
that keep me going apart from our relationship, where we can
lean on each other when it's a little bit difficult, is
(30:04):
the fact that the women are just so brilliant.
They just keep coming back, and they just come with
such desire to want to kind of improve their lives.
And like you said, for their children, more than
anything, they want to make sure that their children
have better opportunities than they've had access to.
And that really drives me.
And there's just every little tiny win that you
(30:28):
get, whether it's an employer coming back to you
or you finally got them an interview and you
can do some interview practice with them.
It's those sorts of things that just drive me.
And I was saying to somebody the other day that
I just skip when I leave the bakery center.
It doesn't matter what's happened that day.
I skip because you just get so much from the
women, which is why that kind of motivates me to
(30:50):
keep trying and keep giving back, even with all of
this kind of red tape and these barriers and stuff.
But yeah, I mean, that kind of answers
my next question, I guess, which is around
what brings you joy in your DayToday work?
Is there anything you would add to that?
I think it's that and I think
it's just the community of it.
(31:11):
And we've got women from 18 to I'm not going to
say an upper age, but spanning the whole age range, spanning
the planet and the languages, the music, the food.
We do benefit from some really good food.
(31:32):
Women Cook like the Empanadas, the Samosas.
Ladies, thank you.
What an amazing privilege to
be involved in this community.
And with it being a women only space, I think
that does give all of us it's a safe space
(31:54):
and it's a safe place, I think, where people feel
able to express themselves and be themselves.
There's laughing, there's singing, there's Zumba.
So that brings me a lot of joy. Yeah.
I've got a massive smile on my face now
(32:15):
because I'm just thinking about all of those things,
and I'm thinking about how I do love them.
I'm just reminded of how lively the place is.
And I've got a few women in my head right
now that I'm thinking of that just bounce into the
center and they give so much of that energy to
some of the other women that perhaps new to it
(32:37):
all, perhaps they're a bit intimidating.
They don't really know kind of
what their next steps are.
But, yeah, I think for me, one of the things that really
brings me joy when I come in is when one of the
women bring someone new in, like a new woman, and they recommend
them and say, oh, so and so helped me with this.
(32:59):
And so and so and then you've got the opportunity to
help another person, which is just such a lovely feeling.
And I think the relationships that form.
I'm thinking of two women who
were like such close friends.
One was a Spanish Speaker and
one was a Cantonese Speaker.
And they had a little bit of
English, but not much, honestly, in common.
(33:20):
And they had this brilliant relationship based on,
again, coming back to being human body language
and gestures and WhatsApp translated on Google Translate.
Where else does that relationship happen?
That's a really special thing that happens in bakery
(33:41):
and probably doesn't happen out in the big world.
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah.
There's a real sense of support between the
women, not just from obviously, yourself and volunteers
like me, but actually between the community of
(34:02):
women that come in there.
You can see the friendships forming in the groups.
It's lovely. There's some pretty wild.
What that group.
I'm glad I'm not on those.
I didn't get any work done.
So I think I'd love to know a little bit of
advice from you now, because if people are listening to this,
they might be thinking, oh, well, this is helpful.
(34:24):
It's interesting to learn a little bit more.
But I guess what practical piece of advice could
you give someone who's kind of listening now and
wanting to know how to get involved, whether it's
at the bakery or whether it's with a local
woman center in their local community.
Well, I think if you're local to South London,
(34:45):
come and volunteer with us if you can, or
volunteer in your local center or charity.
I think what is really helpful for
us as charities, we're often really overrun.
And what's really helpful for us is if you email
us saying hello, this is my name, this is what
(35:05):
I do and I could offer you this.
This is what I could do for you.
So make it hand it to us on a plate, please.
Because sometimes, you know, things get busy and it's really
helpful for people to be really clear with what their
skills and experience are and what they can offer.
(35:26):
So volunteering is great if you have
time, if that's something you're up for.
We've had people, for example, where you volunteer
your HR skills and your employment skills.
We have people volunteering going to come back to
the Zumba, Zumba, dance, yoga, art, craft, floristry, all
(35:50):
kinds of different things or just time things like
reading, support, English support, lots of different things.
I think in a more general sense, I think
it's coming back to this idea of listening and
having your eyes open, listen to those around you,
(36:14):
maybe not the ones in your immediate social bubble,
but people, I think of our women sometimes, many
of them do really early morning cleaning jobs.
They're up at 03:00 A.m.
And they're coming home at 08:00 or offer
one of them a seat on the tube.
Just say hello, make some eye contact, be friendly.
(36:40):
Why didn't your observations a bit of the people around
you who they are and I'm very pro languages.
So learn a bit of French or Spanish or be
a bit wild and learn some Quechua or some Amharic
or some community languages, just a little bit.
(37:03):
Lynn had to say hello, how are you?
Use it when you can.
We've got no excuse now.
We've got Duolingo, we've got
YouTube, we've got Google Translate.
I think it's about listening and seeing who's around
(37:23):
you and making an effort to engage getting a
little bit out of your comfort zone because we
don't all have time for volunteering.
It's great if you do.
Also, if you do have some spare
cash, if you're a funder, please give.
(37:43):
Some charities are struggling at the moment, so
give from your bounty, not from your reserve.
But money doesn't go straight either.
Yeah, especially since COVID as well.
I think charities have taken such
a massive hit on the fundings.
I love that.
(38:04):
And it comes back to that human thing
again, that's like tagline for this podcast.
There's something about lifting our heads up when we're
walking down the street and engaging with people, especially
people that are perhaps from a different kind of
background or culture to us and just smiling.
And it's funny.
I'm from the Midlands originally, and actually I'm
(38:25):
up here in the Midlands at the moment.
And it's so funny how quickly you forget
that people talk to each other here.
So I was walking down a very quiet little street
and there was some kind of elderly people walking towards
me, and we were like, good morning, good morning.
Good morning kind of thing.
And I think we lose that a
little bit in London for various reasons.
But, yeah, lifting your head up and like you
(38:46):
say, learning something from somebody else's culture, whether it's
a little piece of their language or whatever it
might be to engage with those kind of people.
But yeah, love that.
I think talking from a London perspective, and I
know we're not the center of the universe, but
we're here in the middle of London.
We like to think we are, but we
(39:09):
know the rest of you are there.
We do become very cut off because there's such
a lot of hustle and it's so hard.
A lot of the time, I think about being
on the tube, you're packed in like sardines.
In a lot of those situations, we do
retreat into ourselves because we're protecting ourselves, because
(39:30):
it can be quite a harsh environment sometimes.
So we do retreat in and we put
our headphones on and we disappear inside our
minds or our books or our newspapers.
But as you say, look up sometimes.
Look up.
My daughter's got children's book called Lookup is
(39:52):
about asteroids and looking to the stars.
And I think it's a bit about look
up and see what's around you and engage
because there's so much richness there.
Yeah, definitely.
What about kind of advice you would give to perhaps
(40:13):
businesses that are looking to support this type of work,
maybe within their CSR kind of practices, maybe they're thinking
that they need to be a little bit more kind
of closely knitted to their community.
What kind of advice would you give to those businesses?
I think reach out.
Really think about what you're asking in terms of
(40:36):
recruitment and reach out to organizations or people that
you know to get advice about how you can
make your recruitment more inclusive, how you can make
your working practices inclusive and accessible, and think about
what these really skilled and able people can bring
(40:56):
to your business.
And I think it's such a good
opportunity for Bridging gaps in our society.
We're talking about Brickstone earlier
and the changes in Brixton.
We've got lots of new businesses, lots of new
people coming in, and there can often be quite
a divide between them and us, people who've been
(41:19):
here for ages and new people coming in.
But think about how you engage, engage with the
community around you and how you become a part
of it and how you give back and form
a symbiotic relationship and talk to people, ask, listen
again and do things differently.
(41:41):
Don't be afraid to do things a
bit differently and to try it out.
So things like offering some work, shadowing day or coming
in to do a talk about your business or coming
to a center like Bay Tree to demonstrate something or
to meet people or to share a skill, all of
(42:01):
those things would be really valuable.
Yeah, I love that share a skill.
I think a lot of the women that we work with,
a lot of it is down to confidence as well.
So if they could have that exposure to people
running businesses in different industries and stuff like that,
if people that were running these businesses were trying
(42:24):
to find ways to be closely knitted to their
community, those are really great ways to help build
the confidence of the women.
So they are more confident to apply for
jobs in the first place as well.
It's great that these women have got our support,
but there's a lot more women out there that
are perhaps a migrant background, perhaps they've come from
(42:45):
quite a vulnerable space and actually they don't have
the confidence to apply for any of these jobs.
And what we've seen, unfortunately, is that
some of the women and I'm sure
our listeners will understand this as well.
Some of the women around the UK, and
of course, in different parts of the world,
they're having to take on real questionable employment
(43:07):
where they haven't got a contract.
Sometimes they get paid for the work.
It can be in
potentially physically dangerous situations.
It's completely unreasonable and extremely demanding on
the kind of mental and physical health.
And there's still no guarantee at the end of
it that they'll be treated well and actually get
(43:27):
paid for the work that they do.
And we definitely see that sometimes when the women come
in, I've definitely helped to kind of educate some of
the women that I've worked with to say to them,
no, this is not the way it's done.
And we have very strict employment laws in the UK.
So let's move you.
If you enjoy doing this type of work, let's move
you at least into employment where you will be looked
(43:50):
after and you will be safe and you will be
paid for the work that you do.
So I know that that's a real big issue as well.
So I think that businesses also have a responsibility
with that to make sure that there is no
wrongdoing in any of their maybe associate businesses, perhaps
some of those smaller organizations that they might partner
(44:11):
with around that sort of thing, and also that
supplier chain as well.
It's something I work with organizations on a lot.
And I think in business these days, it's
really a great USP, isn't it, to be
ethical on a big scale, to source things
ethically and have ethical production and use sustainable
(44:32):
materials and all those things are really good.
I'm very proud of all of those things.
But let's also be ethical on a small
scale, like, let's treat our employees well.
Let's be open in our recruitment.
Let's be open to new types of people working for
us and put in some training or work experience to
(44:55):
give them the skills and experience they need.
So while the big scale ethical practice is very
welcome, let's have some small scale human coming back
to human, but human level ethical practice too.
And that can be really small.
Just how you speak to your staff, how you
communicate with them and going on from there.
(45:18):
No, listen, you know, I 100% agree with you.
Because of the way.
No, but because we've seen it, we've seen it.
We've experienced it.
You've seen it on a much more
permanent, longer term level than I have.
But yes, certainly it's something that we see
in our day to day kind of practices.
(45:40):
I think there's also another
kind of takeaway for businesses.
And this is something that really frustrates me
with the way that employers do this.
Stop constantly looking for experience.
Don't look for the exact experience of the
job that you're recruiting for, because what you're
missing out on there is potential and you're
(46:02):
missing out on those kind of transferable skills.
The other thing to think about as well, if you
want to hire someone that is exceptionally loyal and is
going to do a really good job and wants to
really kind of push themselves to do the best they
can do, you're less likely to get that from someone
that's done the job before.
They're not going to be as engaged.
You want to bring someone in that's going to learn it.
(46:22):
And I think that's why your suggestion there of
the work experience or the shadowing is great, because
it gives the women access to the experience but
also allows the employers to see, oh, okay, person
didn't have the experience, but they're fantastic, actually.
I really want to keep them on.
I think there's just so much talent out there.
(46:43):
And if recruiters keep thinking this way, they're going
to miss out on all of these fantastic women.
And recruit for attributes, don't recruit for little.
Itty bitty specific experiences
that aren't really necessary.
One of my women who is brilliant, she's a
very, very elegant, stylish lady, and she wanted to
(47:04):
work in retail, in a fashion store.
And we were looking together an advert for it
was a minimum wage retail assistant job in a
well known fashion chain, which we won't name.
And the amount of skills and experience it sounded like
you needed to be like a business CEO, like full
Dragons Den they were asking for, and then they're paying
(47:28):
you the minimum wage and treating you really badly.
It's not necessary.
You know, as you say, recruit for attributes, recruit
for people who have potential and proven ability to
work hard, to learn new things, to use their
initiative, to work in a team.
(47:49):
What you want is loyal, able,
hardworking, capable people with potential.
Yes, humans.
That's what we'll rename this podcast full of humans.
There's so many humans. So many. Yeah.
I think just to kind of round that off.
I think there is something there as well.
(48:11):
I guarantee, obviously, we're not going to
name the name not here anyway.
We can maybe chat about it
afterwards of that particular retailer.
But I can guarantee if we went into their stores,
we wouldn't be seeing all of those attributes that are
on that job description because it's a ridiculous as you're
asking for everybody to be exactly the same.
And that is, as we know,
the reason that businesses fail. Right.
(48:34):
Lots to kind of think about their lots to take away.
And I'm really hoping that our listeners have
taken something really fantastic away from that.
But yeah, thank you so much, Duran.
Obviously, I could talk to you for a million
years, and we've got lots of really cool projects
that we're working on that we can continue to
talk about these sorts of things.
But for anyone that's listening, if you are interested in
(48:56):
getting involved with anything that the Bay Tree do or
something in your local community, if you're not in the
Lambeth area, then please go and look.
And like Joanne said, these
charities are extremely under resource.
So if you don't get a response from your
first email, chase it up because you really need
to support and kind of help with that.
(49:17):
And yeah, do what you can.
Try to give an hour every week or two.
It's not too much to ask.
And you wouldn't believe the benefits that you personally
will get out of this by helping and supporting
local kind of community charities like the bakery and
the amazing work that they do.
Thank you so much for having me, Zoe.
And thank you so much.
Thank you all the incredible work you do for
(49:39):
women at Baytree Center and all the support you
give to them and to me as well.
It's really very much appreciated.
We're very grateful you do for us.
So thank you. Thank you very much. You, too. Of course.
Thanks, Sharon. Speak to you soon. Hi, Zoe. Bye. Bye.
Bye.
(50:05):
What an amazing guest.
I'm hoping you have taken away as much
as I have from that conversation there.
Joanne does some really fantastic work, and I think
it's great we've been able to give the platform
to her to share some of that work.
There were definitely some fantastic suggestions that I think
all of us could take away from that, not
just individually, but of course, as organizations as well.
(50:28):
So if we have HR leaders and MDS and
CEOs listening to this podcast, reach out and see
what you can do to support your local community.
So that's it for our second podcast.
We hope you've enjoyed listening.
If you're interested in having conversations like
this in your organization, then we're happy
to come in and support those and
(50:50):
facilitate those conversations through DNI learning.
We are in and learning.
You have been our listeners.
We can't wait to see you again on the next one.
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