March 21, 2024 • 54 mins
Join Pastor Brent McQuay and Joni Bishop as they unpack what it means to "Think Like Jesus" in this week's episode. They share a friendly and honest conversation about the challenges and joys of aligning our thoughts with those of Christ. From the stories we tell ourselves to the daily decisions we make, they explore how a Jesus-centered mindset can transform our lives and those around us. Whether you're wrestling with negative thoughts, seeking peace, or just curious about walking more closely with Jesus, this episode offers practical insights and warm encouragement for your journey. Get ready for some real talk, laughter, and moments of revelation that might just change the way you think.
If you're looking to get even more out of this podcast episode, check out the full sermon on the same topic on our YouTube channel https://go.clc.tv/ps51
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Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Hey, what's up? And welcome back to another episode
of between sermons where we get to continue the
conversation from Sunday. Really taking that monologue that preachers
get to do and turn it into a dialogue.
And so today, I get to hang out with
my friend Joni Bishop. How you doing, Joni?
I am doing so great now.
No pressure. Joni, I think the stats still show
(00:32):
that you are, in fact, the most popular guest
we've ever had.
I mean, not to brag, is that.
Just because you are the digital ministries director and
so you rally your digital people to watch?
You would think. One would think that. That would
be the reason. However, I shared that episode one
time on social. Didn't push it, didn't even get
a ton of interaction on my post. But, yeah,
(00:52):
we just had some good content.
Just. You're a very popular person.
I'm just so popular that people just follow clearly.
People are like, I just want more Joni Bishop.
Absolutely.
So we're giving the people what they want.
Give the people what they want.
Yeah, we're going to give them all the Joni
Bishop. So I'm just going to shut up and
just let you talk. What do you want to
talk about, Joni?
So, yesterday, Pastor Bret McQuay preached an incredible message
on thinking like Jesus. So I think that should
(01:13):
be our topic.
Say more about me. No. So we are going
to talk about our message yesterday. So we're in
a series talking about becoming more like Jesus. And
I had to make an apology yesterday that we
did things totally out of order, which I don't
even think we really realized how out of order
it was until I started really working on this
specific message. And I was like, we did this
(01:35):
backwards, but we can blame the fact that I
was in Senegal and then that means that ASo
would have had to preach that message. But I
think he was the right person to talk about
prayer.
He did a great job.
Anyways, the reason for all that is, in order
to do the things that Jesus did, we kind
(01:56):
of have to get into, as Paul would put
it, we got to get into the mind of
Christ. Right. If our thoughts drive our actions, then
we've got to think like Jesus before we can
pray like Jesus or love like Jesus or serve
like Jesus or do any of the things like
Jesus. We kind of need to start up here.
Absolutely.
And so I hope you're ready for a really
intellectual conversation today. As we talk about.
(02:17):
Yes, as we talk about thinking like Jesus. I'm
struggling to think like Joni today, so should be
a fun.
I don't even know what.
That should be a fun episode.
What does Joni usually think like?
I normally have clear, concise, well formed thoughts.
Do you, though?
Before they come out of my mouth? And today
it's just. We got some crickets in there, just
hanging out.
Okay, are we going to get you, like, the
(02:38):
sole version, like, the unfiltered? If it pops in,
it's coming out.
Absolutely. So, last week, I was jet lagged, got
back from a trip, and with my office mates,
we were talking about how I had some extra
opinions that came out through the course of the
week with my extra jet laggedness. So the filter
was definitely down a little bit. So, yeah, we'll
see how today goes.
What I love is that people always accuse me
(02:58):
of not having filter, and then they meet soul
and they're like, oh, no, you do have a
filter. It's just different than a lot of people.
And I think my problem is a lack of
care. Other people are like, oh, but that might
be offensive. And I'm like, okay, I don't care,
(03:19):
but I won't say things that are inappropriate. My
wife, on the other hand, totally says and does.
If it pops in her head, it doesn't matter
if it's inappropriate. It's coming out of her mouth.
She's not cussing or talking about lewd things or
anything, but it's just like, hey, you have that
thought. We all have that thought. Don't express that
thought. Will express it. Yeah, but that's not what
(03:42):
we're here to talk about. We are here to
talk, not about how to think like soul. We
want to learn how to think like Jesus. We
kind of talked about this idea of our thoughts
really drive our actions. So we need to get
better at thinking about what we think about. And
so know, before hearing that sermon, how well did
(04:02):
Joni think about what she thinks? That, is that
a normal occurrence in your life where you're just,
like, taking an assessment of your thought life, your
thought process?
Actually, probably. Over the last few years, I think
I've become a lot more aware of what I'm
thinking and how to redirect. So I've been on
(04:25):
a journey to better my mental health over the
past five years, ten years, but especially in the
last few years, have really ramped up that understanding
of myself and understanding my thoughts and the way
my brain works and operates. And so, for me,
that is something that actually does come up is
instead of dwelling in the negativity, instead of dwelling
(04:47):
in those dark places, it's like okay, what can
I do? And sometimes there is nothing you can
do to get out of those spaces. But what
can I do? What can I control? Let me
control the things I can control and see if
that helps to push the needle forward.
How did you get to that place where you're
like, I need to be thinking about what I'm
thinking about.
Lots of wisdom from trusted people and counseling and
(05:10):
people helping me to understand how my brain works
and how my thoughts affect life overall. So I
guess just gaining a better understanding of me and
the way my brain works and realizing that, hey,
there is something that I can do to help
shift those thoughts around. You don't have to just
be a victim to whatever comes, right? But you
can take control and hold those thoughts captive and
(05:30):
redirect.
I love the word you just said there because
I think a lot of us do live victims
to our own thoughts. It's almost like the whole
soul thing. We're like, if it pops in my
head, I'm going to say it. Well, a lot
of us, it's like, if it pops in my
head, it's going to stay there for a while.
And that's not healthy, right? Intrusive thoughts are a
real thing. It doesn't mean that they need to
(05:52):
take up residence.
Exactly.
But tell me more about that journey of learning,
how Joni thinks. What did that look like for
you? What was some of the Aha moments where
it's like, oh, this is not good, or, oh,
this is actually really good. I need to lean
in this direction. I need to avoid that. What
did that look like for you?
That's a big question.
(06:13):
Is that too personal?
No. Not too personal. No. Don't care about the
personal aspect of it. Because honestly, the way I
see it, if there is anything from my journey
that can help somebody else in their journey, let's
do it. I really have no shame. No shame
in my game. I'm here. I feel like the
experiences, and I know this is a bit off
topic, but the experiences that I have had in
(06:35):
my life, there have been a lot of not
good experiences. There's been a lot of negative and
pain. And the way I see it is I'm
not going to let those negative things stay where
they are. I'm not going to let them continue
to be negatives, because I truly believe that God
can work all things together for our good. And
I want to transform those experiences from being just
(06:57):
a negative to something that can possibly help somebody
else in their journey. So if it is, hey,
look what I did. Wrong. Here's how to not
do that again. Cool. Or it's, hey, here's how
I grew through this process. If it can be
an inspiration, if it can cause a spark of
something in somebody else, I would much rather that
than just let that negative say a negative in
the past. So, that being said, I think probably
(07:21):
one of the biggest things about me learning how
to gauge what I'm thinking and how to reshape
that is coming face to face with my imperfections.
So I have always been a perfectionist. I've always
been the kind of person where if I can't
do it 100%, I don't want to do it
at all, 95% is not good enough. But kind
(07:44):
of coming to that place of not every thought
that I have is going to be good. Not
all is going to be positive. And there are
some things that I can shift. There are some
things that I can change. So just being okay
with not being perfect, being okay with sometimes things
slipping through my brain that maybe I don't want
to be there. But instead of beating myself up
over it, it's what can I do to shift
that? What can I do to change that? That
(08:07):
probably is the base. Just being okay with not
being perfect.
That'S a huge step for somebody that does deal
with perfectionism because that can be such a stronghold.
As we talked about the message, it can be
paralyzing. Absolutely paralyzing. So I'm not cured yet, have
(08:30):
not arrived, haven't figured it all out, but we're
on the journey, getting better and better.
That's awesome. I love what you said because it
reminded me of the passage where it talks about
God works all things together for our good. And
sometimes we think that that means everything's going to
be good.
Right?
And the reality is that's not what that says
at all. It's going to work everything together. So
(08:53):
even the bad stuff, I'm still waiting for you
to write that book about your journey because you've
lived a.
Life, I've had a life.
That's the best way to put it. And I
think that you have found ways to take horrific
things that happen to you and say, okay, what's
(09:14):
the good that God can work even through this?
Instead of, I think some people, they come through
things like that and they just want to close
that chapter. They just want to shut that door.
We're never going to put a deadbolt on it,
put a barricade. We're never going to address those
things again. But you're in a place in your
journey where, like, no, those things happened. They weren't
good. But if I've made it through, then maybe
(09:37):
there's some way that I can help somebody else
come through that as well.
I think it's a beautiful. And all that to
say, I lived in that place. I lived in
that place for a long time of shutting the
door, pretending like it didn't exist. So PTSD is
real. Not being able to remember stuff is real
still in my life, but having the courage and
the bravery to be able to walk up to
that fence and say, okay, I'm going to peek
(09:58):
through the fence. I'm going to see what's over
there, even if I'm not ready to completely confront
it. So, yeah, it's worth it. It's worth doing
the scary things and tackling those things and opening
those doors that were shut once.
And it's such a hard thing to go through
because all of it is up here. You have
to deal with it up here. It happened up
(10:19):
here. And so it is beneficial to talk about
these things, to write things down, but it really
does come down to, okay, what are you thinking
about? Why are you thinking about it? How are
you thinking about it? Because you can think about
that event in a healthy way and you can
think about that event negative way.
Perspective has definitely been another tool in the toolkit
(10:40):
of, okay, the situation happened. Here it is in
this square. I'm going to look at it from
this angle or I'm going to look at it
from this angle. The situation is still the same.
But how am I going to look at it?
How am I going to perceive it? How am
I going to think about it down the road?
And so perspective is probably on top of that
base layer. It's probably number two for sure.
Yeah. That's why I love the quote I use
(11:01):
from Alastair Bagg. He's one of my favorite preachers.
The Scotsman.
The Scotsman, not the Englishman. I don't know why
I said English. It came out of my mouth,
and after I said it, I was like, dude,
he's Scottish. Yeah. I don't know what happened. I
don't know what happened there. Anyway, still one of
my favorite guys, but he know it's imperative that
we learn to think about the right things in
(11:22):
the right way. And I love that there's that
duality of it, because you can think about the
right thing, but you can be thinking about it
in the wrong way.
Exactly.
And you can be thinking about the wrong thing
in the right way, but it's the wrong thing.
We need to really pay more attention to what
we're thinking, because, as we quoted Craig Rochelle, your
life is moving in the direction of your strongest
(11:43):
thoughts. And so if your thoughts are always leading
you into a place that talking with people, we
did a relationship series here recently, and they're like,
why do I always end up with these losers?
Okay, what are you thinking about? What are you
going after? Because where you're going, it's probably your
thought process. And so we could fix so many
things in our lives if we just got our
(12:04):
thinking right. Fix your thinking and you can fix
your life.
Absolutely.
On that journey, we talked about doing a thought
audit, I gave kind of four categories, like four
spectrums, if you remember those. So it was, are
your thoughts worried or peaceful? Are they negative or
(12:26):
positive? Are they worldly or kingdom? Are they selfless
or selfish or selfless? So, of those kind of
four categories, where is Joni's struggle? You can tell
me about your wins later, but where's the struggle?
You're like, okay, I'm really good here, but, man,
if I'm going to fail, it's going to be
(12:46):
in that area.
So this is a safe space, right?
I think so.
Okay, safe space.
I ain't judging you. I don't know about everybody
watching. They might be like, man, wow, she's not
my favorite anymore.
So, Lois, I would say so you mentioned, are
my thoughts worldly or kingdom? And so I feel
(13:09):
like I can get really caught up in the
day to day. I can get really caught up
in the task list, and this is what needs
to get done and not keeping the bigger purpose
in mind. And you would think like, hey, you
work for a church. Must be easy. You're always
there, like, cool. Always thinking about Jesus, always praying,
always reading your Bible. So while I do those
things, yes. I also know Monday morning, I walk
(13:31):
in and I have a staff meeting, and then
we have podcast recording, and then I have to
do A, B, and C. And so it can
be so easy for me to just get in
that routine of thinking of what's coming next. What's
coming next. Let me take a moment to stop
and pray and ask the Lord to lead me
and guide me in my day, in every task
that I have and ask him to show me
what I need to do for this podcast episode.
(13:52):
Show me what I need to do. Instead of
taking his leading, I will so often go in
my own understanding, in my own plans. And so
I'm not sure if that was really what you
meant by that. Thought audit question. But that is
what came to mind for me is thinking worldly
or kingdom. And it's like, ooh. Especially for kingdom
specific things like ministry. I probably shouldn't bringing my
(14:15):
worldliness into it. I probably should be kingdom minded
for kingdom things. Definitely an area I need to
improve.
I think it's absolutely accurate. And yeah, there is
this kind of this, I don't know, stereotype understanding
or thought that's like, you work for a church,
so you're always thinking about the kingdom. And it's
like, no, sometimes I'm thinking about an email I
need to send and is it kingdom? I mean,
(14:36):
it's kingdom adjacent, which makes it really easy to.
Yeah, it's God.
Yeah. The funny thing for me, the worldly, actually,
it's super silly. But I can use my YouTube
search history to be a good indicator of which
direction are my thoughts leaning. Like if I scroll
(14:58):
through my search history on YouTube specifically, it's like,
oh, there's a lot of stuff about sports. There's
a lot of stuff about video games in there.
I was like seeing the walkthroughs of a video
game and how to get.
Past this level because I'm playing Final Fantasy seven
rebirth right now. It's a throwback from my childhood.
Final Fantasy Seven was like the thing. And so
(15:20):
right now there's way too much Final Fantasy searches
in my history. But then there's also a bunch
of Easter searches because I'm gearing up for Easter.
So there's a little bit of a balance there.
And honestly, I wanted to stress that too. And
so I'm glad you brought up the worldly kingdom.
And we'll talk about some of the others too.
But some people are like, so does that mean
I can never think about the worldly stuff? Like,
(15:41):
I can only think about Jesus. That's what makes
you weird. That would absolutely make you weird. It
would probably make you hard to relate to, probably
make it hard to connect with. If you can
do that and be effective. I mean, there's some
amazing people in history that I think probably thought
Kingdom 99% of the think about, like, Smith Wigglesworth.
(16:02):
Oh, yeah.
Like Smith Wigglesworth had this crazy story of like,
he wouldn't eat breakfast until he read his Bible.
And he was staying at this hostel or this
place. And the lady had a strict breakfasts at
this time. And he just looked at her and
he's like, no. He's like, because I have to
read my Bible first. And she changed the schedule
for him to accommodate. He had just a hyper
(16:25):
focus. I'm super jealous of that. I admire that.
But I think the reality for most people is
you're going to think about other stuff, too. And
it's okay, too. It's just about balance. If my
search history is 100% worldly stuff, then I'm out
of balance. And if it's a moment where I'm
(16:45):
supposed to be kingdom focused and I'm distracted by
the worldly, like, if it's Sunday morning and I'm
sitting there listening to a sermon, but I'm thinking
about the bears trade.
Terrible.
It's a bad moment. I still can't believe that
I burst the news to a guy.
That person was like, he was like, what?
He told me afterwards. And then we're talking about.
(17:09):
He's like, oh yeah, I saw that on Google.
I'm like, you didn't listen to a thing that
I talked about in that message. After that moment,
he was checked out. Maybe he'll listen to the
podcast and get something out of it. Shout out,
I kind of love that moment. So if you're
listening, love you, man. Sorry for busting.
We get it.
The news, we get it. But yeah. So I
think it is about balance and finding when I'm
(17:31):
supposed to be kingdom focused, I'm not allowing world
to distract me. And sometimes that's at the grocery
store. And I think that's the hard thing about
it, is I've found that moment in my own
life where because I'm not thinking kingdom perspective when
I'm doing a mundane task, I miss opportunity.
Exactly. Yeah. I feel like there are so many
(17:53):
of those small moments that are placed in our
path to be just a small light. And sometimes
we think of. I think we talked about this
on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. Maybe
it was the soul last week, talking about those
little moments that can have such big impact and
it can mean so much to somebody, but it
can seem insignificant on our side. And it's like,
(18:13):
I feel like. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like
those things are placed in our path so often.
We miss them so often because we're focused on,
I got to get the cereal and I got
to get the milk and that's it. But there
could be this person who is hurting or grieving
in the next aisle over. And because I didn't
have eyes to see kingdom, I'm going to miss
being able to be an encouragement to that person
by complimenting their shirt or whatever it might be.
(18:34):
I think that we can be able to be
the hands and feet without being one of the
weird, weird Christians.
Why you got to go after and fend all
the weird Christians out there?
Because there's balance. There is balance.
What's the old saying? If you don't know any
(18:54):
weird Christians, it's probably you're the weird Christian.
It's absolutely.
But, yeah, so I've noticed in my own life,
I am hyper observant, but I have a delayed
reaction. I don't know. There's a delay in my
thinking. So I'll be walking out of the store,
and then my brain's like, hey, the person at
(19:16):
the checkout definitely looked like they were having a
bad day, but I'm already in the parking lot.
I noticed it, obviously, because my brain was like,
hey, pay attention to this.
Your processing was a little, but I process.
I don't know. I need to upgrade the ram.
Absolutely. In my brain is just not working, but
I make the observations. It's just too late, and
(19:38):
so I need to work on that. I had
a great conversation with somebody, super short conversation, but
it was a good one. Right after service, they
were asking the question about self less thinking and
selfish thinking, and where's the balance there? It's like,
okay, when do I need to actually think about
myself? And so I'm curious, your advice. I gave
them some advice, but I want to hear yours
(20:00):
first, and then I'll share what I said.
Okay. So if I give the advice that is
completely opposite.
Oh, it's going to be great. We're going to
argue. We're going to fight, disagree.
This should be great. Okay, so the difference between
selfish and self, the balance.
When is it okay to have more selfish thoughts?
(20:22):
I think there are seasons and that you have
to be just self aware enough to know what
season you're in, to know what your level of
capacity is at that time. Because there are seasons
that we walk through where I can be 98%
selfless, not thinking about myself whatsoever, and get all
of the joy that I need out of serving
others and thinking about others. But there are times
(20:43):
where it's like, maybe I'm not in such a
healthy place, and I'm not in that place, and
I need to think about myself a little bit
more, put up a little bit more boundary is
around me. Think about self care a little bit
more. So I think it comes back to knowing
where you are and not trying to. And this
can be controversial, but not trying to. You can't
(21:03):
pour out of an empty vessel. You can't give
what you don't have. And so I think we
have to be aware of where we are internally
to know if we have it inside to give.
If you don't have it to give, it could
be a blessing to that other person. But if
it's damaging to you, it's a net loss.
No, I like that response. That's very similar to
(21:25):
what I told this person, what I told them,
I said, for my own personal life, when I
realize that it's going to affect how I'm able
to serve or love others, I need to take
some time for myself. Like, if I've gotten so
stressed, so worn out, so exhausted that now it's
hindering my ability to minister to others, I need
to be like, okay, you know what? I need
(21:46):
to go play a video game. I need to
go watch a movie. Yesterday after service, we went
to five different stores. My wife and middle son
are heading to England this week, and so we
had to get all this stuff, and we finally
got home. I don't know, it was like 05:00.
Preached two services. Like, I'm exhausted. And in the
back of my mind, I was like, okay, Brent,
you need to prepare for life university this week.
(22:07):
You need to get your notes ready. You got
to present a sermon on Tuesday. You need to
get those. I like, I was just fried. And
so instead of doing all of that great work
for the ministry, I was like, hey, Jaden, you
want to watch TV? And so I ended up
just sitting on the couch with Jayden, and Kelsey
came and joined us, and we watched a couple
(22:27):
episodes of Percy Jackson.
Nice.
And then we watched the opening episode of the
Avatar live action. So we literally spent, like, I
think I spent 3 hours just on the couch
with my kids watching TV. Good. It was a
much needed moment, and I think that it did
(22:48):
a better job of preparing me for today, where
now I'm not riding on empty, now I can
have productive conversations, now I can work on things
more effectively. And so, yeah, I think the selfish,
the self less. It comes down to in those
moments when it is affecting my ability to do
ministry. And I'm not saying that because I'm a
(23:11):
pastor. All of us, right. Like, every single person
listening to this podcast, there is ministry that God
has for you to do. And when your self
care is affecting your ability to do ministry, then
you need to work on that.
Yeah. And honestly, the way I see your experience
yesterday is, like, you took that time to refill
and recharge, like you said. So you're better prepared
for today and this week and the things that
(23:31):
are coming up. But also, you wanted to get
started on that sermon in life university so that
you could make sure it was good. So it
was a blessing to other people. But at the
same time, you were a blessing to your kids.
You were present, you were with them. You were
sharing a memory. It's like. So sometimes, again, perspective.
We can take those moments and they can be
(23:51):
blessings, even if it looks different than what it
could be. I love that.
Good times. All right, so I asked you what
your biggest struggle. Were you, like, killing it? Were
you like, man, that audit? I was like, a
ten, or probably not a ten. I can't give
myself a ten on anything, ever.
Remind me of the other three.
(24:12):
So it was selfless, selfish, worldly kingdom. I'm doing
these, like, in weird orders, but hopefully you can
figure out what the negative one is. Good one
is negative and positive. Negative and positive. And then
worried and peaceful.
Where am I killing it? I would say out
(24:37):
of those. Honestly, maybe my husband would disagree with
us.
He's in the building. We can go find him.
No, actually, I'm curious to hear what the people
around me, what their take would be on it,
because I feel like, between selfish and selfless, I
(25:00):
tend, as a rule, to try to think of
others and how what I'm doing is going to
affect other people. And even at work, like, hey,
how can I lend a helping hand? How can
I be an encouragement to somebody? I feel like
I'm pretty good at not being selfish. I don't
(25:20):
know. That can be a prideful statement in a
way. But honestly, I think even if I'm not
acting all the time in a selfless way, it's
something that I'm mindful of.
I don't think that's prideful to say. I'm not
getting pride vibes from you on that one. I
mean, some people are like, I'm so selfless.
I am so selfless.
(25:41):
Look at you. Okay. My struggle is the negative
thinking. Negative, positive. I like to say that I'm
a realist.
Pessimist. Is that code word?
So my wife says I'm a pessimist. I like
to say I'm a realist. It's just that the
real world really sucks.
Sucks. So technically, you're not wrong, however.
(26:04):
Right. But I see the glass more as half
empty than half full, or maybe filled with cyanide.
I don't know. So my thinking is definitely, if
I have a struggle area, my brain will immediately
go. And part of it is my wiring. So
I'm wired as a problem solver, which means I
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see the world as problems to be solved, which
leans towards negative thinking. But I just have to
be careful in that that I quickly move towards.
There is a solution. You are a problem solver
for a reason. So let's solve the problem. And
that's how I can take a negative thought and
turn it into positive. But if I'm not careful,
if I'm not thinking about what I'm thinking about,
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then it's going negative.
So instead of this sucks, it's an opportunity for
growth.
Exactly. Like, this was so bad. It's always going
to be bad. Now that's bad. Okay. This was
really bad. What can we do to make it
better? That's where I have to be intentional.
Just not to stay in that place.
Right. And if I'm not thinking about what I'm
thinking about, then it is a very dark place.
(27:08):
Brent's brain can be a very dark place. So
that's where my struggle is. My success story would
be on the worried peaceful, which is really funny.
To combine that with the negative. I just. I
don't worry very easily. It takes a lot to
get me to be worried. And I think part
(27:29):
of that is I do live with a mindset
of two things. One, there is always a solution
to every problem. And I will fight you on
that one. There is a solution to every problem.
May not be a great solution, but there is
a solution to every problem. Okay. The second thing
that I go back to is the scripture we
(27:49):
quoted a little bit. God works all things together
for our good. And so even in the sucky
situations, like, okay, there's a good that can come
from this. And I fully believe that heaven is
going to be an amazing place. And so no
matter how sucky things get here, eventually, I'm not
worried because there's peace coming. So I think that's
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where I do good, negative, positive, where I do
bad. Which is funny because I feel like those
two thoughts usually would kind of match each other.
Yeah. But they're nuanced enough that they can be
separate.
Yeah. A little bit there. Yeah. So that's my
journey. So I'm learning. And it's funny. I talked
about my wife last week, about how amazing she
is. That was. Sometimes we get up there and
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we are preaching a message to ourselves as communicators.
I'm just talking to myself. There just happens to
be a few hundred people here listening to me
talk about myself and how last week, that was
not what happened with soul. Soul is up there.
She is a servant. If there's one thing my
wife does better than 99% of the population, I
think it's serving others. Like, she just kills it
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in that area. Yesterday's message about thinking like Christ,
I needed this. So hopefully somebody else needed it
too. Or else you all were just a part
of my therapy session.
No. At least I was online yesterday. And the
feedback we got online yesterday, it impacted a lot
of. I think. I think you heard the voice
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of the Holy Spirit properly.
Well, I'm learning how to think like Jesus, and
so hopefully others are on that journey with me.
But it really did spark an interesting thought. We
had a long conversation about it in sermon planning.
Like, what did Jesus actually think? And it's such
a hard question to definitively answer, I think is
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the right way to put it, because we can
backtrace. Like, we can say, okay, if our thoughts,
what we're thinking about comes out of our mouth,
which clearly happens with my wife. But if that's
the case for most people, then what Jesus said
is a good indication of what he was thinking.
If our thoughts drive our actions, then the things
that Jesus did are a good indication of what
he was thinking. But it's still like I talked
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about in the, like there's no, dear diary entry.
There's no moment where it says, this is what
Jesus was thinking when the Pharisees came. Now, based
on him calling them a brood of vipers, I'm
pretty sure we can guess what he was thinking
about these people in that moment. So, having said
all that, what do you think Jesus thought about?
(30:15):
What's going through jesus'brain?
Something that I thought of when that was brought
up is, okay, what goes through his mind? I
can't imagine him walking around and knowing every single
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person's struggle and pain and what they're experiencing and
what they're walking through. And so realizing that he
had a normal, everyday existence where he just interacted
with people in such a regular way, yet he
was fully God, so he fully saw to the
heart of every person. And so for me, what
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I think about is, I guess, how was he
able to separate that compassion from, okay, I just
need to move on. And so it's like, I
want to learn that, to know how to better
walk forward, because I think sometimes we will ignore
the homeless guy on the corner because it's a
bigger problem than I want to deal with right
(31:16):
now. Or, wow, they're probably dealing with a lot.
And I don't have the capacity to handle that
right now. But I can't help but imagine that
as Jesus walked around. He saw to the heart
of every person, and he saw their struggle, and
he also saw a path forward, the answer to
their solution that they might not ever see. So
there was more than that that he thought of.
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But I can't help but think of just the
compassion that Jesus must have felt towards every person.
Such an interesting thought to play around with, even
of how much he knew when he would look
at somebody. So obviously he knew that Judas was
going to betray him.
As I mentioned in his diary entry.
Right.
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Judas is about to do that thing.
I felt like that was such a risque moment.
Is this blasphemous? I'm like, dear diary is Jesus.
But I got the green light from Pastor Jerry.
So I was like, all right, we're going for,
like, Jesus knows Judas'heart. Knows he's going to betray
him, chooses to wash his feet, like, when Peter
is super braggadocious. And, like, I'll never deny, like,
(32:22):
I know what Jesus said, but what was he
really thinking in that moment? Like, Peter, just stop.
Peter. It's a very interesting thing to think about,
of what, as we read the gospel, and I
hope that it causes people to kind of approach
the gospels a little bit more nuanced, a little
bit deeper, of like, okay, why did Jesus say
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that? Or what was he thinking when he did
that? What was he thinking about people? What is
he thinking about? Situations. But I think ultimately, of
all the little examples that we walk through in
the message, I think the most important one is,
what does Jesus think about you? And I really
do feel like a lot of times what we
(33:04):
think of ourselves is not good, especially in light
of Jesus died for you. And I don't know
how to fully wrap my head around that. In
my worst moments, in my most sinful Brent moments,
I look at myself and I'm like, it's disgusting.
(33:27):
Filth, sinful. I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough.
I'm not whatever. And I think that even in
that lowest moment, I mean, the scripture says that
while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us.
It wasn't about our potential. It wasn't about who
we could be. It was in our filth. In
(33:47):
the absolute worst moment you've ever had in life,
Jesus loved you in that moment.
Yeah. And I think in that, it can still
be an encouragement, because I think that takes away
that striving piece of our faith. And I have
to be good enough for God to love me.
I have to be good enough for salvation. And
(34:08):
it's like, that just shows that in our lowest,
he still died for us. So that doesn't mean
don't go out there and try to be as
much like Jesus as you can be or think
as much like Jesus as you can think or
serve. But I think that it's a place of
rest of you know what? I'm never going to
be good enough to attain salvation. It is a
gift. So just accepting that gift without that pressure
(34:32):
of, am I good enough? Because, no, we're not
good enough. However, while we were sinners, he still
died for us.
Yeah. It's a beautiful moment, as Paul said. Does
that mean you just keep on sinning? No, that
would be stupid. But, man, just to recognize the
grace and the love that when he thinks about
you, there's some really amazing thoughts that he has
(34:55):
for you.
Yeah. Even going down that path of thought experiment
of, do we think about that enough? Is that
something that we include? I don't know.
Yeah. How often are you thinking about how much
God loves you? And my guess is, no matter
how much you're thinking about it, it's probably not
(35:16):
enough.
Agree.
Crazy. This is a fun thought process of trying
to think like Jesus.
Yeah.
I'm really grateful, though, that Paul steps in and
tells us how to do it right. He says
in several different places about having the mind of
Christ, that we need to be thinking like Jesus
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thought. And then he describes the process of how
to do it. Take every thought captive and then
fix your thoughts. And so we walk through a
lot of that in the message. The Philippians four
eight, super recommend. Memorize that one. And it's funny,
because when you walk through those eight different things
that it talks about and different translations will have
(35:58):
them in different ways. But I like the NLT.
Just the language is just clear. But those eight
things, it can feel like that's an impossible task.
How am I supposed to take every single thought
I have and then measure it against these eight
things? Like, you know how much time that's going
to take for me to think through all of
this? And that's where we started talking about these
(36:18):
neural pathways, the way your brain works, working those
grooves in. Because the more you think like that.
Exactly.
The faster you think like that, the easier you
think like that. And in those moments where you're
not even super paying attention to your thoughts, there's
going to be a voice that's like, hey, that
thought wasn't true even without you having to go
through. Okay, is it true? Is it honorable? Is
(36:42):
it right? Is it lovely? As we're going through
all of that stuff. The more we do this,
the easier it is. So get in the habit
of take every thought captive and measure it against.
Fix your thoughts on these things.
Absolutely. It makes me think of riding a bike
and how intimidating and scary that is. Such a
(37:06):
simple illustration. But honestly, how intimidating is it to
say, okay, we're taking the training wheels off. You
got two wheels, go figure it out, because guess
what? You're going to fall. You're going to get
bloody. It's going to hurt. It's not going to
be easy. You're going to have to concentrate and
think about it. But ten years down the road,
you're riding your bike, you don't have to think
about, okay, left foot, right foot, left foot, right
foot, stay balanced. It's just a thing that just
(37:26):
becomes so ingrained. And so I think it's the
same thing. We talk about those neural pathways and
creating those new habits and those new ways of
thinking, and it'll get easier over time. Our autopilot
will shift of how we're thinking.
I like it. I think the more we do
it, easier it becomes. And, yeah, it's going to
take you longer on day one to go through
(37:48):
that list. As you're memorizing even what that list
is, it's going to take a little while to
measure those thoughts. But do the hard work.
Do the hard work.
That's what this whole series is about. We've got
to go to the mirror. We've got to look
at ourselves in a realistic way and say, ooh,
I do not look like Jesus in this area
of my life. Here's what I need to do.
(38:10):
Well, you know what? I've had thoughts even today
that I'm like, ooh, that wasn't true, or that
wasn't honorable or that wasn't pure or that wasn't.
And so it's a process that we're all on.
It's a journey that we've all got to walk
out, but be intentional with it.
Yeah. So you mean there's something that I have
to do?
Yes, absolutely.
I have to put in work. There's no easy.
(38:30):
Nope. The closest thing to an easy button is
the holy spirit comes in and does amazing things.
But it's not an easy, like, it's not a
replacement. The Holy Spirit is not a replacement for
us doing the work we need.
To do or making poor decisions.
Right. Yeah. If you're entertaining bad thoughts all day
long, and then you're like, well, holy spirit, I
just need you to help my thinking. Well, how
(38:52):
about you stop thinking those things. How about you
actually put some effort into take some responsibility? Yeah.
A guy that's like, I'm always having bad thoughts
about girls. It's like, well, you're also getting some
thirst traps on Instagram that you're constantly going back
to. It's like, hey, can you maybe stop doing
that?
Control what?
You can control the stuff you listen to, the
(39:12):
stuff you're watching. Maybe that's affecting the way you're
thinking.
Yeah.
So let's change.
Absolutely.
Came for a bunch of guys that are like,
dude, back off.
No, I've struggled with thoughts, and so I don't
know. It's coming back to that place of let
me control what I can control. Sometimes thoughts come
that come out of left field, and I have
no idea where they came from, and I don't
(39:32):
want them. However, let me control the things that
I can control. Let me not look at those
things on Instagram. Let me not listen to that
type of music. Let me control the pieces in
my life that will block those things out, and
then we can move forward. But, yeah, be responsible
and control those things that you can control.
Man, I knew somebody that was, their thought process
was always like, it was just all drama, drama,
(39:54):
drama. And then it was like the music that
they would listen to was always feeding into that.
It was very dramatic, very emotional music all the
time. And it was like, your music is affecting,
and then it's like, hey, what do you want
to watch on TV? And it's like all the
melodrama stuff. And it's like, you have surrounded your
life with drama, and now you're like, why are
(40:15):
my thoughts so negative and so much drama?
Well, give me two guesses.
First one doesn't count.
So I stopped watching TV and movies, and this
is going to make me sound like talking about
weird Christians. It's not like that. I got to
a place. Isn't it, though? I got to a
place where it was too much, and so I
(40:38):
termed it artificial emotionalism. And it was like I
had so much emotions in my life. I had
so many emotions from so many different areas. I
was already feeling big emotions all over the place.
Like, I don't need to watch TV and be
sad about somebody's relationship. I don't need to watch
this movie and get all caught up in the,
no, I got my own stuff in my own
life. I don't need the extra fake stuff that
(40:59):
Hollywood is producing. So I've just, in the past
couple years, started to slowly dip my toe back
in the water. I have no issues with TV
or movies. So if you watch TV or movies,
cool, that's you. It's a personal choice. I had
to stop because of the artificial emotions that came
along with it. And so it's like, yeah, those
things absolutely do affect you 100%.
They affect you, and we know it does, but
(41:20):
we like it sometimes. We like that the music
makes us feel a certain way, even if that
feeling is not a good feeling. We like that
it takes us somewhere mentally that it makes that
process.
Maybe I'm too much the control freak. I don't
know.
Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know. But
I think that we can do the hard work
(41:41):
of fixing our thoughts. It starts with taking every
thought captive and something that I wanted to bring
up because I didn't talk about in the message.
But the Philippians four eight. There's kind of two
ways to approach that. There is the reactive or
there's the proactive. So the reactive is after you've
taken a thought captive, then you measure it up
(42:02):
about these things. So, is this thought true? Is
this an actual true statement? Okay. Is it honorable?
Because it can be true, but it doesn't mean
that it's going to be honorable. Is it right?
And for that, the way I distinguish the difference
between right and true, because true and right seem
very similar. But is it the right thing to
be thinking about at this time? And then is
(42:26):
it pure? And, man, we could go on and
on and on about how impure thoughts can be.
And then the one that was weird to me,
the lovely, lovely. I had somebody come up to
me after the service, is like, you know what?
I'm having some lovely thoughts now. Thank you. I
was like, good for you. Go have some lovely
thoughts. Just go for it. But is it something
(42:47):
that's drawing people together? Is it attractive thoughts? And
is it admirable? Is this, like, the thing that's
like, man, that's an awesome thought. And then is
it excellent, or is it just okay? It's like,
it's not a bad thought, but I don't want
just not bad thoughts. I want excellent thoughts. And
is it worthy of praise? Is this something that
is honoring and glorifying God? So we walk through
(43:08):
that, we take our thought, and we measure it
against that. That would be what I would describe
as reactive, because it's after the thought has already
happened, now we're reacting to it. But there's also
a proactive way to approach Philippians four eight. And
that is to sit down and say, you know
what? Let me think about what's true for a
moment. Let me force my thoughts around the truth
(43:31):
in God's word. Let me spend some time thinking
about this, and let me sit down and let
me think about some pure thought. What's pure, what
is godly, what is heavenly focused. And when we
force our brains, when we force our minds to
take that time, I don't know, maybe that's five
minutes a day. Maybe that's the first ten minutes
(43:52):
of your day. You get your list of those
eight things, and you say, you know what? For
the next five minutes, I want to think what
would be excellent. What would be something excellent to
think about right now. And I'm just going to
spend some time thinking about that because it goes
back to those neural pathways, and the more we're
training our brain to actually do these things, to
think about these things. I don't know. I hate
(44:13):
that in the message, I wasn't able to bring
that aspect out just because of time sake. But
I think that a lot of times we are
very reactionary. It's like, oh, this thing happened. Now
what do I do? Exactly, man. And it takes
more time to be proactive, to actually set aside
time where I'm going to think about what I
think about for the next ten minutes.
(44:33):
Yeah, it's that prep work piece. And the way
I see that you mentioned being able to look
at the true, look at the lovely and know
what those things look like. And it makes me
think of counterfeit bills. The officers who know love,
they don't study the fakes. They study the real
to know what the real looks like. And then
(44:55):
there's the scripture that talks about out of the
abundance. Of abundance. Exactly. And so it's like those
things that we are filling up with are eventually
going to come out, and those are the things
that we're going to think about. So if I
am in scripture and we talked about in the
sermon the importance of scripture and making sure that
we are bathing in it and we are surrounded
with it, and I think sometimes it can be
easy to forget about that piece. But as we
(45:17):
are spending time in scripture, as we are learning
more about what the word says, that's what's going
to be ingrained in us. That's what's going to
overflow out of our mouth. And so it can
be so easy. And I feel like, especially in
recent years in the christian world, overall, not CLC,
not here, but it has become so easy to
move away from scripture as the basis of everything
(45:38):
that we do. It's, hey, how can I make
my life better? How can I be happier? But
it's like the end of the day. Let's get
back to scripture and filling up with. What does
the word say? Get back to the book.
Yeah, I'm teaching a class right now in life
university on introduction to biblical interpretation. Super sexy title.
Everybody's like, man, I'm rearing for this one. But
(45:59):
actually, I think we have, like, close to 50
students in that class. Essentially, it's a hermeneutics class.
We're learning the art and the science of interpretation.
But it is so vital. If you have been
saved for more than six months, there is no
excuse for you to be biblically illiterate. And sadly,
(46:20):
there's a whole generation of Christians that are biblically
illiterate. They don't know scripture. Man, that probably breaks
my heart more than just about anything else. It's
like God gave us the Bible for a reason.
I know you love the feelings. I know you
love worship. You come in and the music makes
(46:40):
you feel a certain way. I know you love
the preaching. When the preacher is entertaining and tells
some jokes and everybody laughs, and that's great. But,
man, when's the last time you were just in
love with God's word where you were just so
passionate about. I want to learn more about what
God has to say about things. And if you
want to know what Jesus was thinking, you got
(47:03):
to read the scriptures.
Absolutely.
If you want to know why you believe what
you believe, you've got to read the Bible. You've
got to read scripture. And so we need to
move away from self help Christianity, please, and get
back into Bible based. The scriptures come alive for
us because they are life, they are truth. And
(47:24):
in a world that has forgotten what truth actually
means, we need to pick up our Bibles and
look, I love self help. I think that you
being a better version of you is a great
thing, but it's not as good as the Bible,
right? Just focus on scripture. You focus on scripture
and you will be helped.
(47:44):
Absolutely.
But this idea, this concept of self help Christianity,
man, it just. It's like a thorn in my
side. It drives me nuts. And it's funny because
think about Paul. Like, Paul comes in, he's like,
there's going to be suffering. Like, where was the
self help in Paul's day? He didn't have self
help. He was like, look, you're going to suffer,
but it's going to be good.
Or even the things that were know, Paul's like,
(48:05):
persecution. You're like, yeah, persecution. Because I posted this
on my Facebook and somebody said something negative. I'm
being persecuted.
I'm being persecuted. Nobody liked my post. That's not
persecution.
Yeah.
And there's real legitimate persecution that's happening in the
world around Christianity. It ain't really happening in the
(48:25):
US. I mean, the level of persecution that we
experience, man, nobody's coming for you.
Right.
Just. I don't know. This is so not the
thing that we're supposed to be talking about, but
here we are.
Here we are. Yeah. You talked about what we
pour in is what flows out, and being more
(48:47):
filled with scripture is going to give us those
thoughts that are more like him. And I think
that even, like, things like gratitude journals. So, I
mean, there have been literal studies. Like, people have
studied this scientifically to look and see. Okay. When
your thoughts are fixed on being thankful and grateful
for things, you're going to be thinking about being
thankful and grateful more often. Every morning, you're sitting
(49:07):
down. What are ten things that I'm thankful for
today? Throughout the day, you're going to start thinking
about those things. We picked up a new car
in end of fall, and so now I see
that car everywhere. I have never seen so many
of these before. They're all over the place. But
now my brain is connected to that car, and
it's something I see every day. So now I'm
noticing it everywhere I go. So, absolutely, the things
(49:30):
that we're thinking about, the things that we're pouring
in, they come out.
Yeah, 100%. And so we've got to be careful
with what we think about, why we're thinking about
it, how we're thinking about it, and allow that
to be submitted to God. And I think that
was the last scripture that I shared about when
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you let the sinful nature drive your thoughts, it
leads to death. When you are submitted, when you
hand over that thought process to the Holy Spirit,
it leads to life. And so I think we
need to be focused on thinking the right thoughts
and surrendering. If this is not the thing that
you want me thinking about right now, I'll stop
(50:11):
thinking about it.
Yeah. Partmentalizing is helpful.
Yeah. I love it. It's awesome. All right. Any
last thoughts from Joni Bishop on how we can
do a better job of thinking like Jesus?
I think something that I have introduced into my
(50:34):
prayers over the last few years is just a
simple God, give me your heart. Give me your
heart for people. I want to see people the
way you see people. And I think that in
and of itself has been so beneficial for me
personally, because praying that prayer, sometimes he will bring
(50:54):
something to mind that may have been small and
seemingly insignificant that I might have passed over or
missed. But I think when we make it our
goal to worry about what we're not worry in
that way, but to think about what we're thinking
about. When we make it our goal to be
like minded with Christ, those things are going to
come. Those things are going to happen. So I
(51:16):
know for a fact that praying that super short,
quick, simple prayer of God, give me your heart,
I want to see people the way you see
people. He will. He absolutely wants us to have
his heart. He wants us to be more like
him. He's going to answer that prayer. He's going
to to share more of himself with us in
those moments. So I think that even praying a
(51:37):
simple prayer of God, help me to think more
like you think more like Jesus. He's going to
answer that. It is something that is going to
be honoring to him. He's going to see that
as being a good thing. So there's really no
reason for him to not answer that.
Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a
great way to start your day. Starting your day
with, okay, help me to go through today thinking
like Jesus. And we're still going to do the
(51:59):
hard work of taking every thought captive, measuring against
thing. We'll take the extra step of man, you
know what? I'm going to be proactive. I'm going
to set aside time in my day, and maybe
that means you got to wake up a little
bit earlier. Maybe that means you need to scroll
on social media a little bit less. Maybe that
means you don't watch three episodes of your favorite
show. You only watch two of them, whatever that
(52:19):
looks like. But taking time to say, okay, you
know what? I'm making this a habit in my
life. I'm going to spend a time in prayer.
I'm going to spend a time reading my Bible,
and I'm going to spend some time thinking about
what I think about. And I'm going to submit
and surrender all of my thoughts to the Holy
Spirit and say whatever you want me to be
thinking about. That's what I want to think about.
Yeah, I think. And then giving yourself grace in
the process of realizing your marathon runners don't wake
(52:42):
up one day and go, hey, I'm running a
marathon today. It's a process. You got to give
yourself grace in.
That the, the goal is to keep getting better
than you were yesterday. And even Paul said, not
that I've already achieved it, right? But I'm running
the race. And I think that's the reality for
(53:02):
all of us. The moment we achieve it is
when we're standing in heaven before the great throne.
Before that moment, we're still on a journey. You
could be 98 years old and still on that
journey. And it's going to be beautiful. It's going
to be awesome. And so keep thinking like Jesus.
Absolutely.
I like it. Well, thanks for hanging out, Joni.
(53:23):
That's fun.
Yeah. We'll get you on again. We'll see if
people still love you this episode. I don't know.
No pressure. Great watchers of between Sermons podcasts.
Yeah, we'll see what happens. Hey, so next week
is next week our one year anniversary, which is
crazy. It is week 52, and it's the anniversary
(53:45):
of the church. So how old are we turning?
34. 34 years old for church. One year old
as a podcast. That's kind of a cool milestone.
We're going to be celebrating next week talking about
how to love like Jesus.
Oh, it'll be good. Pastor Chris is bringing that
message.
She is. I don't know if we're going to
be able to get her on the podcast or
not. I'm going to talk with her, see how
(54:05):
her back is, know she's recovering from surgery. So
sitting is the hardest thing for her. So to
get her to sit on the other side of
the table with me for an hour may not
happen, but we'll see. It's a teaser for next
week. Maybe she's here, maybe she's not. Who knows?
Wait and see.
Dun dun dun. But, hey, we hope you'll be
back with us next time on between sermons. Until
(54:27):
then, God bless.
Hey, what's up? And welcome back to another episode
of between sermons where we get to continue the
conversation from Sunday. Really taking that monologue that preachers
get to do and turn it into a dialogue.
And so today, I get to hang out with
my friend Joni Bishop. How you doing, Joni?
I am doing so great now.
No pressure. Joni, I think the stats still show
(00:32):
that you are, in fact, the most popular guest
we've ever had.
I mean, not to brag, is that.
Just because you are the digital ministries director and
so you rally your digital people to watch?
You would think. One would think that. That would
be the reason. However, I shared that episode one
time on social. Didn't push it, didn't even get
a ton of interaction on my post. But, yeah,
(00:52):
we just had some good content.
Just. You're a very popular person.
I'm just so popular that people just follow clearly.
People are like, I just want more Joni Bishop.
Absolutely.
So we're giving the people what they want.
Give the people what they want.
Yeah, we're going to give them all the Joni
Bishop. So I'm just going to shut up and
just let you talk. What do you want to
talk about, Joni?
So, yesterday, Pastor Bret McQuay preached an incredible message
on thinking like Jesus. So I think that should
(01:13):
be our topic.
Say more about me. No. So we are going
to talk about our message yesterday. So we're in
a series talking about becoming more like Jesus. And
I had to make an apology yesterday that we
did things totally out of order, which I don't
even think we really realized how out of order
it was until I started really working on this
specific message. And I was like, we did this
(01:35):
backwards, but we can blame the fact that I
was in Senegal and then that means that ASo
would have had to preach that message. But I
think he was the right person to talk about
prayer.
He did a great job.
Anyways, the reason for all that is, in order
to do the things that Jesus did, we kind
(01:56):
of have to get into, as Paul would put
it, we got to get into the mind of
Christ. Right. If our thoughts drive our actions, then
we've got to think like Jesus before we can
pray like Jesus or love like Jesus or serve
like Jesus or do any of the things like
Jesus. We kind of need to start up here.
Absolutely.
And so I hope you're ready for a really
intellectual conversation today. As we talk about.
(02:17):
Yes, as we talk about thinking like Jesus. I'm
struggling to think like Joni today, so should be
a fun.
I don't even know what.
That should be a fun episode.
What does Joni usually think like?
I normally have clear, concise, well formed thoughts.
Do you, though?
Before they come out of my mouth? And today
it's just. We got some crickets in there, just
hanging out.
Okay, are we going to get you, like, the
(02:38):
sole version, like, the unfiltered? If it pops in,
it's coming out.
Absolutely. So, last week, I was jet lagged, got
back from a trip, and with my office mates,
we were talking about how I had some extra
opinions that came out through the course of the
week with my extra jet laggedness. So the filter
was definitely down a little bit. So, yeah, we'll
see how today goes.
What I love is that people always accuse me
(02:58):
of not having filter, and then they meet soul
and they're like, oh, no, you do have a
filter. It's just different than a lot of people.
And I think my problem is a lack of
care. Other people are like, oh, but that might
be offensive. And I'm like, okay, I don't care,
(03:19):
but I won't say things that are inappropriate. My
wife, on the other hand, totally says and does.
If it pops in her head, it doesn't matter
if it's inappropriate. It's coming out of her mouth.
She's not cussing or talking about lewd things or
anything, but it's just like, hey, you have that
thought. We all have that thought. Don't express that
thought. Will express it. Yeah, but that's not what
(03:42):
we're here to talk about. We are here to
talk, not about how to think like soul. We
want to learn how to think like Jesus. We
kind of talked about this idea of our thoughts
really drive our actions. So we need to get
better at thinking about what we think about. And
so know, before hearing that sermon, how well did
(04:02):
Joni think about what she thinks? That, is that
a normal occurrence in your life where you're just,
like, taking an assessment of your thought life, your
thought process?
Actually, probably. Over the last few years, I think
I've become a lot more aware of what I'm
thinking and how to redirect. So I've been on
(04:25):
a journey to better my mental health over the
past five years, ten years, but especially in the
last few years, have really ramped up that understanding
of myself and understanding my thoughts and the way
my brain works and operates. And so, for me,
that is something that actually does come up is
instead of dwelling in the negativity, instead of dwelling
(04:47):
in those dark places, it's like okay, what can
I do? And sometimes there is nothing you can
do to get out of those spaces. But what
can I do? What can I control? Let me
control the things I can control and see if
that helps to push the needle forward.
How did you get to that place where you're
like, I need to be thinking about what I'm
thinking about.
Lots of wisdom from trusted people and counseling and
(05:10):
people helping me to understand how my brain works
and how my thoughts affect life overall. So I
guess just gaining a better understanding of me and
the way my brain works and realizing that, hey,
there is something that I can do to help
shift those thoughts around. You don't have to just
be a victim to whatever comes, right? But you
can take control and hold those thoughts captive and
(05:30):
redirect.
I love the word you just said there because
I think a lot of us do live victims
to our own thoughts. It's almost like the whole
soul thing. We're like, if it pops in my
head, I'm going to say it. Well, a lot
of us, it's like, if it pops in my
head, it's going to stay there for a while.
And that's not healthy, right? Intrusive thoughts are a
real thing. It doesn't mean that they need to
(05:52):
take up residence.
Exactly.
But tell me more about that journey of learning,
how Joni thinks. What did that look like for
you? What was some of the Aha moments where
it's like, oh, this is not good, or, oh,
this is actually really good. I need to lean
in this direction. I need to avoid that. What
did that look like for you?
That's a big question.
(06:13):
Is that too personal?
No. Not too personal. No. Don't care about the
personal aspect of it. Because honestly, the way I
see it, if there is anything from my journey
that can help somebody else in their journey, let's
do it. I really have no shame. No shame
in my game. I'm here. I feel like the
experiences, and I know this is a bit off
topic, but the experiences that I have had in
(06:35):
my life, there have been a lot of not
good experiences. There's been a lot of negative and
pain. And the way I see it is I'm
not going to let those negative things stay where
they are. I'm not going to let them continue
to be negatives, because I truly believe that God
can work all things together for our good. And
I want to transform those experiences from being just
(06:57):
a negative to something that can possibly help somebody
else in their journey. So if it is, hey,
look what I did. Wrong. Here's how to not
do that again. Cool. Or it's, hey, here's how
I grew through this process. If it can be
an inspiration, if it can cause a spark of
something in somebody else, I would much rather that
than just let that negative say a negative in
the past. So, that being said, I think probably
(07:21):
one of the biggest things about me learning how
to gauge what I'm thinking and how to reshape
that is coming face to face with my imperfections.
So I have always been a perfectionist. I've always
been the kind of person where if I can't
do it 100%, I don't want to do it
at all, 95% is not good enough. But kind
(07:44):
of coming to that place of not every thought
that I have is going to be good. Not
all is going to be positive. And there are
some things that I can shift. There are some
things that I can change. So just being okay
with not being perfect, being okay with sometimes things
slipping through my brain that maybe I don't want
to be there. But instead of beating myself up
over it, it's what can I do to shift
that? What can I do to change that? That
(08:07):
probably is the base. Just being okay with not
being perfect.
That'S a huge step for somebody that does deal
with perfectionism because that can be such a stronghold.
As we talked about the message, it can be
paralyzing. Absolutely paralyzing. So I'm not cured yet, have
(08:30):
not arrived, haven't figured it all out, but we're
on the journey, getting better and better.
That's awesome. I love what you said because it
reminded me of the passage where it talks about
God works all things together for our good. And
sometimes we think that that means everything's going to
be good.
Right?
And the reality is that's not what that says
at all. It's going to work everything together. So
(08:53):
even the bad stuff, I'm still waiting for you
to write that book about your journey because you've
lived a.
Life, I've had a life.
That's the best way to put it. And I
think that you have found ways to take horrific
things that happen to you and say, okay, what's
(09:14):
the good that God can work even through this?
Instead of, I think some people, they come through
things like that and they just want to close
that chapter. They just want to shut that door.
We're never going to put a deadbolt on it,
put a barricade. We're never going to address those
things again. But you're in a place in your
journey where, like, no, those things happened. They weren't
good. But if I've made it through, then maybe
(09:37):
there's some way that I can help somebody else
come through that as well.
I think it's a beautiful. And all that to
say, I lived in that place. I lived in
that place for a long time of shutting the
door, pretending like it didn't exist. So PTSD is
real. Not being able to remember stuff is real
still in my life, but having the courage and
the bravery to be able to walk up to
that fence and say, okay, I'm going to peek
(09:58):
through the fence. I'm going to see what's over
there, even if I'm not ready to completely confront
it. So, yeah, it's worth it. It's worth doing
the scary things and tackling those things and opening
those doors that were shut once.
And it's such a hard thing to go through
because all of it is up here. You have
to deal with it up here. It happened up
(10:19):
here. And so it is beneficial to talk about
these things, to write things down, but it really
does come down to, okay, what are you thinking
about? Why are you thinking about it? How are
you thinking about it? Because you can think about
that event in a healthy way and you can
think about that event negative way.
Perspective has definitely been another tool in the toolkit
(10:40):
of, okay, the situation happened. Here it is in
this square. I'm going to look at it from
this angle or I'm going to look at it
from this angle. The situation is still the same.
But how am I going to look at it?
How am I going to perceive it? How am
I going to think about it down the road?
And so perspective is probably on top of that
base layer. It's probably number two for sure.
Yeah. That's why I love the quote I use
(11:01):
from Alastair Bagg. He's one of my favorite preachers.
The Scotsman.
The Scotsman, not the Englishman. I don't know why
I said English. It came out of my mouth,
and after I said it, I was like, dude,
he's Scottish. Yeah. I don't know what happened. I
don't know what happened there. Anyway, still one of
my favorite guys, but he know it's imperative that
we learn to think about the right things in
(11:22):
the right way. And I love that there's that
duality of it, because you can think about the
right thing, but you can be thinking about it
in the wrong way.
Exactly.
And you can be thinking about the wrong thing
in the right way, but it's the wrong thing.
We need to really pay more attention to what
we're thinking, because, as we quoted Craig Rochelle, your
life is moving in the direction of your strongest
(11:43):
thoughts. And so if your thoughts are always leading
you into a place that talking with people, we
did a relationship series here recently, and they're like,
why do I always end up with these losers?
Okay, what are you thinking about? What are you
going after? Because where you're going, it's probably your
thought process. And so we could fix so many
things in our lives if we just got our
(12:04):
thinking right. Fix your thinking and you can fix
your life.
Absolutely.
On that journey, we talked about doing a thought
audit, I gave kind of four categories, like four
spectrums, if you remember those. So it was, are
your thoughts worried or peaceful? Are they negative or
(12:26):
positive? Are they worldly or kingdom? Are they selfless
or selfish or selfless? So, of those kind of
four categories, where is Joni's struggle? You can tell
me about your wins later, but where's the struggle?
You're like, okay, I'm really good here, but, man,
if I'm going to fail, it's going to be
(12:46):
in that area.
So this is a safe space, right?
I think so.
Okay, safe space.
I ain't judging you. I don't know about everybody
watching. They might be like, man, wow, she's not
my favorite anymore.
So, Lois, I would say so you mentioned, are
my thoughts worldly or kingdom? And so I feel
(13:09):
like I can get really caught up in the
day to day. I can get really caught up
in the task list, and this is what needs
to get done and not keeping the bigger purpose
in mind. And you would think like, hey, you
work for a church. Must be easy. You're always
there, like, cool. Always thinking about Jesus, always praying,
always reading your Bible. So while I do those
things, yes. I also know Monday morning, I walk
(13:31):
in and I have a staff meeting, and then
we have podcast recording, and then I have to
do A, B, and C. And so it can
be so easy for me to just get in
that routine of thinking of what's coming next. What's
coming next. Let me take a moment to stop
and pray and ask the Lord to lead me
and guide me in my day, in every task
that I have and ask him to show me
what I need to do for this podcast episode.
(13:52):
Show me what I need to do. Instead of
taking his leading, I will so often go in
my own understanding, in my own plans. And so
I'm not sure if that was really what you
meant by that. Thought audit question. But that is
what came to mind for me is thinking worldly
or kingdom. And it's like, ooh. Especially for kingdom
specific things like ministry. I probably shouldn't bringing my
(14:15):
worldliness into it. I probably should be kingdom minded
for kingdom things. Definitely an area I need to
improve.
I think it's absolutely accurate. And yeah, there is
this kind of this, I don't know, stereotype understanding
or thought that's like, you work for a church,
so you're always thinking about the kingdom. And it's
like, no, sometimes I'm thinking about an email I
need to send and is it kingdom? I mean,
(14:36):
it's kingdom adjacent, which makes it really easy to.
Yeah, it's God.
Yeah. The funny thing for me, the worldly, actually,
it's super silly. But I can use my YouTube
search history to be a good indicator of which
direction are my thoughts leaning. Like if I scroll
(14:58):
through my search history on YouTube specifically, it's like,
oh, there's a lot of stuff about sports. There's
a lot of stuff about video games in there.
I was like seeing the walkthroughs of a video
game and how to get.
Past this level because I'm playing Final Fantasy seven
rebirth right now. It's a throwback from my childhood.
Final Fantasy Seven was like the thing. And so
(15:20):
right now there's way too much Final Fantasy searches
in my history. But then there's also a bunch
of Easter searches because I'm gearing up for Easter.
So there's a little bit of a balance there.
And honestly, I wanted to stress that too. And
so I'm glad you brought up the worldly kingdom.
And we'll talk about some of the others too.
But some people are like, so does that mean
I can never think about the worldly stuff? Like,
(15:41):
I can only think about Jesus. That's what makes
you weird. That would absolutely make you weird. It
would probably make you hard to relate to, probably
make it hard to connect with. If you can
do that and be effective. I mean, there's some
amazing people in history that I think probably thought
Kingdom 99% of the think about, like, Smith Wigglesworth.
(16:02):
Oh, yeah.
Like Smith Wigglesworth had this crazy story of like,
he wouldn't eat breakfast until he read his Bible.
And he was staying at this hostel or this
place. And the lady had a strict breakfasts at
this time. And he just looked at her and
he's like, no. He's like, because I have to
read my Bible first. And she changed the schedule
for him to accommodate. He had just a hyper
(16:25):
focus. I'm super jealous of that. I admire that.
But I think the reality for most people is
you're going to think about other stuff, too. And
it's okay, too. It's just about balance. If my
search history is 100% worldly stuff, then I'm out
of balance. And if it's a moment where I'm
(16:45):
supposed to be kingdom focused and I'm distracted by
the worldly, like, if it's Sunday morning and I'm
sitting there listening to a sermon, but I'm thinking
about the bears trade.
Terrible.
It's a bad moment. I still can't believe that
I burst the news to a guy.
That person was like, he was like, what?
He told me afterwards. And then we're talking about.
(17:09):
He's like, oh yeah, I saw that on Google.
I'm like, you didn't listen to a thing that
I talked about in that message. After that moment,
he was checked out. Maybe he'll listen to the
podcast and get something out of it. Shout out,
I kind of love that moment. So if you're
listening, love you, man. Sorry for busting.
We get it.
The news, we get it. But yeah. So I
think it is about balance and finding when I'm
(17:31):
supposed to be kingdom focused, I'm not allowing world
to distract me. And sometimes that's at the grocery
store. And I think that's the hard thing about
it, is I've found that moment in my own
life where because I'm not thinking kingdom perspective when
I'm doing a mundane task, I miss opportunity.
Exactly. Yeah. I feel like there are so many
(17:53):
of those small moments that are placed in our
path to be just a small light. And sometimes
we think of. I think we talked about this
on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. Maybe
it was the soul last week, talking about those
little moments that can have such big impact and
it can mean so much to somebody, but it
can seem insignificant on our side. And it's like,
(18:13):
I feel like. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like
those things are placed in our path so often.
We miss them so often because we're focused on,
I got to get the cereal and I got
to get the milk and that's it. But there
could be this person who is hurting or grieving
in the next aisle over. And because I didn't
have eyes to see kingdom, I'm going to miss
being able to be an encouragement to that person
by complimenting their shirt or whatever it might be.
(18:34):
I think that we can be able to be
the hands and feet without being one of the
weird, weird Christians.
Why you got to go after and fend all
the weird Christians out there?
Because there's balance. There is balance.
What's the old saying? If you don't know any
(18:54):
weird Christians, it's probably you're the weird Christian.
It's absolutely.
But, yeah, so I've noticed in my own life,
I am hyper observant, but I have a delayed
reaction. I don't know. There's a delay in my
thinking. So I'll be walking out of the store,
and then my brain's like, hey, the person at
(19:16):
the checkout definitely looked like they were having a
bad day, but I'm already in the parking lot.
I noticed it, obviously, because my brain was like,
hey, pay attention to this.
Your processing was a little, but I process.
I don't know. I need to upgrade the ram.
Absolutely. In my brain is just not working, but
I make the observations. It's just too late, and
(19:38):
so I need to work on that. I had
a great conversation with somebody, super short conversation, but
it was a good one. Right after service, they
were asking the question about self less thinking and
selfish thinking, and where's the balance there? It's like,
okay, when do I need to actually think about
myself? And so I'm curious, your advice. I gave
them some advice, but I want to hear yours
(20:00):
first, and then I'll share what I said.
Okay. So if I give the advice that is
completely opposite.
Oh, it's going to be great. We're going to
argue. We're going to fight, disagree.
This should be great. Okay, so the difference between
selfish and self, the balance.
When is it okay to have more selfish thoughts?
(20:22):
I think there are seasons and that you have
to be just self aware enough to know what
season you're in, to know what your level of
capacity is at that time. Because there are seasons
that we walk through where I can be 98%
selfless, not thinking about myself whatsoever, and get all
of the joy that I need out of serving
others and thinking about others. But there are times
(20:43):
where it's like, maybe I'm not in such a
healthy place, and I'm not in that place, and
I need to think about myself a little bit
more, put up a little bit more boundary is
around me. Think about self care a little bit
more. So I think it comes back to knowing
where you are and not trying to. And this
can be controversial, but not trying to. You can't
(21:03):
pour out of an empty vessel. You can't give
what you don't have. And so I think we
have to be aware of where we are internally
to know if we have it inside to give.
If you don't have it to give, it could
be a blessing to that other person. But if
it's damaging to you, it's a net loss.
No, I like that response. That's very similar to
(21:25):
what I told this person, what I told them,
I said, for my own personal life, when I
realize that it's going to affect how I'm able
to serve or love others, I need to take
some time for myself. Like, if I've gotten so
stressed, so worn out, so exhausted that now it's
hindering my ability to minister to others, I need
to be like, okay, you know what? I need
(21:46):
to go play a video game. I need to
go watch a movie. Yesterday after service, we went
to five different stores. My wife and middle son
are heading to England this week, and so we
had to get all this stuff, and we finally
got home. I don't know, it was like 05:00.
Preached two services. Like, I'm exhausted. And in the
back of my mind, I was like, okay, Brent,
you need to prepare for life university this week.
(22:07):
You need to get your notes ready. You got
to present a sermon on Tuesday. You need to
get those. I like, I was just fried. And
so instead of doing all of that great work
for the ministry, I was like, hey, Jaden, you
want to watch TV? And so I ended up
just sitting on the couch with Jayden, and Kelsey
came and joined us, and we watched a couple
(22:27):
episodes of Percy Jackson.
Nice.
And then we watched the opening episode of the
Avatar live action. So we literally spent, like, I
think I spent 3 hours just on the couch
with my kids watching TV. Good. It was a
much needed moment, and I think that it did
(22:48):
a better job of preparing me for today, where
now I'm not riding on empty, now I can
have productive conversations, now I can work on things
more effectively. And so, yeah, I think the selfish,
the self less. It comes down to in those
moments when it is affecting my ability to do
ministry. And I'm not saying that because I'm a
(23:11):
pastor. All of us, right. Like, every single person
listening to this podcast, there is ministry that God
has for you to do. And when your self
care is affecting your ability to do ministry, then
you need to work on that.
Yeah. And honestly, the way I see your experience
yesterday is, like, you took that time to refill
and recharge, like you said. So you're better prepared
for today and this week and the things that
(23:31):
are coming up. But also, you wanted to get
started on that sermon in life university so that
you could make sure it was good. So it
was a blessing to other people. But at the
same time, you were a blessing to your kids.
You were present, you were with them. You were
sharing a memory. It's like. So sometimes, again, perspective.
We can take those moments and they can be
(23:51):
blessings, even if it looks different than what it
could be. I love that.
Good times. All right, so I asked you what
your biggest struggle. Were you, like, killing it? Were
you like, man, that audit? I was like, a
ten, or probably not a ten. I can't give
myself a ten on anything, ever.
Remind me of the other three.
(24:12):
So it was selfless, selfish, worldly kingdom. I'm doing
these, like, in weird orders, but hopefully you can
figure out what the negative one is. Good one
is negative and positive. Negative and positive. And then
worried and peaceful.
Where am I killing it? I would say out
(24:37):
of those. Honestly, maybe my husband would disagree with
us.
He's in the building. We can go find him.
No, actually, I'm curious to hear what the people
around me, what their take would be on it,
because I feel like, between selfish and selfless, I
(25:00):
tend, as a rule, to try to think of
others and how what I'm doing is going to
affect other people. And even at work, like, hey,
how can I lend a helping hand? How can
I be an encouragement to somebody? I feel like
I'm pretty good at not being selfish. I don't
(25:20):
know. That can be a prideful statement in a
way. But honestly, I think even if I'm not
acting all the time in a selfless way, it's
something that I'm mindful of.
I don't think that's prideful to say. I'm not
getting pride vibes from you on that one. I
mean, some people are like, I'm so selfless.
I am so selfless.
(25:41):
Look at you. Okay. My struggle is the negative
thinking. Negative, positive. I like to say that I'm
a realist.
Pessimist. Is that code word?
So my wife says I'm a pessimist. I like
to say I'm a realist. It's just that the
real world really sucks.
Sucks. So technically, you're not wrong, however.
(26:04):
Right. But I see the glass more as half
empty than half full, or maybe filled with cyanide.
I don't know. So my thinking is definitely, if
I have a struggle area, my brain will immediately
go. And part of it is my wiring. So
I'm wired as a problem solver, which means I
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see the world as problems to be solved, which
leans towards negative thinking. But I just have to
be careful in that that I quickly move towards.
There is a solution. You are a problem solver
for a reason. So let's solve the problem. And
that's how I can take a negative thought and
turn it into positive. But if I'm not careful,
if I'm not thinking about what I'm thinking about,
(26:47):
then it's going negative.
So instead of this sucks, it's an opportunity for
growth.
Exactly. Like, this was so bad. It's always going
to be bad. Now that's bad. Okay. This was
really bad. What can we do to make it
better? That's where I have to be intentional.
Just not to stay in that place.
Right. And if I'm not thinking about what I'm
thinking about, then it is a very dark place.
(27:08):
Brent's brain can be a very dark place. So
that's where my struggle is. My success story would
be on the worried peaceful, which is really funny.
To combine that with the negative. I just. I
don't worry very easily. It takes a lot to
get me to be worried. And I think part
(27:29):
of that is I do live with a mindset
of two things. One, there is always a solution
to every problem. And I will fight you on
that one. There is a solution to every problem.
May not be a great solution, but there is
a solution to every problem. Okay. The second thing
that I go back to is the scripture we
(27:49):
quoted a little bit. God works all things together
for our good. And so even in the sucky
situations, like, okay, there's a good that can come
from this. And I fully believe that heaven is
going to be an amazing place. And so no
matter how sucky things get here, eventually, I'm not
worried because there's peace coming. So I think that's
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where I do good, negative, positive, where I do
bad. Which is funny because I feel like those
two thoughts usually would kind of match each other.
Yeah. But they're nuanced enough that they can be
separate.
Yeah. A little bit there. Yeah. So that's my
journey. So I'm learning. And it's funny. I talked
about my wife last week, about how amazing she
is. That was. Sometimes we get up there and
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we are preaching a message to ourselves as communicators.
I'm just talking to myself. There just happens to
be a few hundred people here listening to me
talk about myself and how last week, that was
not what happened with soul. Soul is up there.
She is a servant. If there's one thing my
wife does better than 99% of the population, I
think it's serving others. Like, she just kills it
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in that area. Yesterday's message about thinking like Christ,
I needed this. So hopefully somebody else needed it
too. Or else you all were just a part
of my therapy session.
No. At least I was online yesterday. And the
feedback we got online yesterday, it impacted a lot
of. I think. I think you heard the voice
(29:11):
of the Holy Spirit properly.
Well, I'm learning how to think like Jesus, and
so hopefully others are on that journey with me.
But it really did spark an interesting thought. We
had a long conversation about it in sermon planning.
Like, what did Jesus actually think? And it's such
a hard question to definitively answer, I think is
(29:33):
the right way to put it, because we can
backtrace. Like, we can say, okay, if our thoughts,
what we're thinking about comes out of our mouth,
which clearly happens with my wife. But if that's
the case for most people, then what Jesus said
is a good indication of what he was thinking.
If our thoughts drive our actions, then the things
that Jesus did are a good indication of what
he was thinking. But it's still like I talked
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about in the, like there's no, dear diary entry.
There's no moment where it says, this is what
Jesus was thinking when the Pharisees came. Now, based
on him calling them a brood of vipers, I'm
pretty sure we can guess what he was thinking
about these people in that moment. So, having said
all that, what do you think Jesus thought about?
(30:15):
What's going through jesus'brain?
Something that I thought of when that was brought
up is, okay, what goes through his mind? I
can't imagine him walking around and knowing every single
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person's struggle and pain and what they're experiencing and
what they're walking through. And so realizing that he
had a normal, everyday existence where he just interacted
with people in such a regular way, yet he
was fully God, so he fully saw to the
heart of every person. And so for me, what
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I think about is, I guess, how was he
able to separate that compassion from, okay, I just
need to move on. And so it's like, I
want to learn that, to know how to better
walk forward, because I think sometimes we will ignore
the homeless guy on the corner because it's a
bigger problem than I want to deal with right
(31:16):
now. Or, wow, they're probably dealing with a lot.
And I don't have the capacity to handle that
right now. But I can't help but imagine that
as Jesus walked around. He saw to the heart
of every person, and he saw their struggle, and
he also saw a path forward, the answer to
their solution that they might not ever see. So
there was more than that that he thought of.
(31:37):
But I can't help but think of just the
compassion that Jesus must have felt towards every person.
Such an interesting thought to play around with, even
of how much he knew when he would look
at somebody. So obviously he knew that Judas was
going to betray him.
As I mentioned in his diary entry.
Right.
(31:58):
Judas is about to do that thing.
I felt like that was such a risque moment.
Is this blasphemous? I'm like, dear diary is Jesus.
But I got the green light from Pastor Jerry.
So I was like, all right, we're going for,
like, Jesus knows Judas'heart. Knows he's going to betray
him, chooses to wash his feet, like, when Peter
is super braggadocious. And, like, I'll never deny, like,
(32:22):
I know what Jesus said, but what was he
really thinking in that moment? Like, Peter, just stop.
Peter. It's a very interesting thing to think about,
of what, as we read the gospel, and I
hope that it causes people to kind of approach
the gospels a little bit more nuanced, a little
bit deeper, of like, okay, why did Jesus say
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that? Or what was he thinking when he did
that? What was he thinking about people? What is
he thinking about? Situations. But I think ultimately, of
all the little examples that we walk through in
the message, I think the most important one is,
what does Jesus think about you? And I really
do feel like a lot of times what we
(33:04):
think of ourselves is not good, especially in light
of Jesus died for you. And I don't know
how to fully wrap my head around that. In
my worst moments, in my most sinful Brent moments,
I look at myself and I'm like, it's disgusting.
(33:27):
Filth, sinful. I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough.
I'm not whatever. And I think that even in
that lowest moment, I mean, the scripture says that
while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us.
It wasn't about our potential. It wasn't about who
we could be. It was in our filth. In
(33:47):
the absolute worst moment you've ever had in life,
Jesus loved you in that moment.
Yeah. And I think in that, it can still
be an encouragement, because I think that takes away
that striving piece of our faith. And I have
to be good enough for God to love me.
I have to be good enough for salvation. And
(34:08):
it's like, that just shows that in our lowest,
he still died for us. So that doesn't mean
don't go out there and try to be as
much like Jesus as you can be or think
as much like Jesus as you can think or
serve. But I think that it's a place of
rest of you know what? I'm never going to
be good enough to attain salvation. It is a
gift. So just accepting that gift without that pressure
(34:32):
of, am I good enough? Because, no, we're not
good enough. However, while we were sinners, he still
died for us.
Yeah. It's a beautiful moment, as Paul said. Does
that mean you just keep on sinning? No, that
would be stupid. But, man, just to recognize the
grace and the love that when he thinks about
you, there's some really amazing thoughts that he has
(34:55):
for you.
Yeah. Even going down that path of thought experiment
of, do we think about that enough? Is that
something that we include? I don't know.
Yeah. How often are you thinking about how much
God loves you? And my guess is, no matter
how much you're thinking about it, it's probably not
(35:16):
enough.
Agree.
Crazy. This is a fun thought process of trying
to think like Jesus.
Yeah.
I'm really grateful, though, that Paul steps in and
tells us how to do it right. He says
in several different places about having the mind of
Christ, that we need to be thinking like Jesus
(35:36):
thought. And then he describes the process of how
to do it. Take every thought captive and then
fix your thoughts. And so we walk through a
lot of that in the message. The Philippians four
eight, super recommend. Memorize that one. And it's funny,
because when you walk through those eight different things
that it talks about and different translations will have
(35:58):
them in different ways. But I like the NLT.
Just the language is just clear. But those eight
things, it can feel like that's an impossible task.
How am I supposed to take every single thought
I have and then measure it against these eight
things? Like, you know how much time that's going
to take for me to think through all of
this? And that's where we started talking about these
(36:18):
neural pathways, the way your brain works, working those
grooves in. Because the more you think like that.
Exactly.
The faster you think like that, the easier you
think like that. And in those moments where you're
not even super paying attention to your thoughts, there's
going to be a voice that's like, hey, that
thought wasn't true even without you having to go
through. Okay, is it true? Is it honorable? Is
(36:42):
it right? Is it lovely? As we're going through
all of that stuff. The more we do this,
the easier it is. So get in the habit
of take every thought captive and measure it against.
Fix your thoughts on these things.
Absolutely. It makes me think of riding a bike
and how intimidating and scary that is. Such a
(37:06):
simple illustration. But honestly, how intimidating is it to
say, okay, we're taking the training wheels off. You
got two wheels, go figure it out, because guess
what? You're going to fall. You're going to get
bloody. It's going to hurt. It's not going to
be easy. You're going to have to concentrate and
think about it. But ten years down the road,
you're riding your bike, you don't have to think
about, okay, left foot, right foot, left foot, right
foot, stay balanced. It's just a thing that just
(37:26):
becomes so ingrained. And so I think it's the
same thing. We talk about those neural pathways and
creating those new habits and those new ways of
thinking, and it'll get easier over time. Our autopilot
will shift of how we're thinking.
I like it. I think the more we do
it, easier it becomes. And, yeah, it's going to
take you longer on day one to go through
(37:48):
that list. As you're memorizing even what that list
is, it's going to take a little while to
measure those thoughts. But do the hard work.
Do the hard work.
That's what this whole series is about. We've got
to go to the mirror. We've got to look
at ourselves in a realistic way and say, ooh,
I do not look like Jesus in this area
of my life. Here's what I need to do.
(38:10):
Well, you know what? I've had thoughts even today
that I'm like, ooh, that wasn't true, or that
wasn't honorable or that wasn't pure or that wasn't.
And so it's a process that we're all on.
It's a journey that we've all got to walk
out, but be intentional with it.
Yeah. So you mean there's something that I have
to do?
Yes, absolutely.
I have to put in work. There's no easy.
(38:30):
Nope. The closest thing to an easy button is
the holy spirit comes in and does amazing things.
But it's not an easy, like, it's not a
replacement. The Holy Spirit is not a replacement for
us doing the work we need.
To do or making poor decisions.
Right. Yeah. If you're entertaining bad thoughts all day
long, and then you're like, well, holy spirit, I
just need you to help my thinking. Well, how
(38:52):
about you stop thinking those things. How about you
actually put some effort into take some responsibility? Yeah.
A guy that's like, I'm always having bad thoughts
about girls. It's like, well, you're also getting some
thirst traps on Instagram that you're constantly going back
to. It's like, hey, can you maybe stop doing
that?
Control what?
You can control the stuff you listen to, the
(39:12):
stuff you're watching. Maybe that's affecting the way you're
thinking.
Yeah.
So let's change.
Absolutely.
Came for a bunch of guys that are like,
dude, back off.
No, I've struggled with thoughts, and so I don't
know. It's coming back to that place of let
me control what I can control. Sometimes thoughts come
that come out of left field, and I have
no idea where they came from, and I don't
(39:32):
want them. However, let me control the things that
I can control. Let me not look at those
things on Instagram. Let me not listen to that
type of music. Let me control the pieces in
my life that will block those things out, and
then we can move forward. But, yeah, be responsible
and control those things that you can control.
Man, I knew somebody that was, their thought process
was always like, it was just all drama, drama,
(39:54):
drama. And then it was like the music that
they would listen to was always feeding into that.
It was very dramatic, very emotional music all the
time. And it was like, your music is affecting,
and then it's like, hey, what do you want
to watch on TV? And it's like all the
melodrama stuff. And it's like, you have surrounded your
life with drama, and now you're like, why are
(40:15):
my thoughts so negative and so much drama?
Well, give me two guesses.
First one doesn't count.
So I stopped watching TV and movies, and this
is going to make me sound like talking about
weird Christians. It's not like that. I got to
a place. Isn't it, though? I got to a
place where it was too much, and so I
(40:38):
termed it artificial emotionalism. And it was like I
had so much emotions in my life. I had
so many emotions from so many different areas. I
was already feeling big emotions all over the place.
Like, I don't need to watch TV and be
sad about somebody's relationship. I don't need to watch
this movie and get all caught up in the,
no, I got my own stuff in my own
life. I don't need the extra fake stuff that
(40:59):
Hollywood is producing. So I've just, in the past
couple years, started to slowly dip my toe back
in the water. I have no issues with TV
or movies. So if you watch TV or movies,
cool, that's you. It's a personal choice. I had
to stop because of the artificial emotions that came
along with it. And so it's like, yeah, those
things absolutely do affect you 100%.
They affect you, and we know it does, but
(41:20):
we like it sometimes. We like that the music
makes us feel a certain way, even if that
feeling is not a good feeling. We like that
it takes us somewhere mentally that it makes that
process.
Maybe I'm too much the control freak. I don't
know.
Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know. But
I think that we can do the hard work
(41:41):
of fixing our thoughts. It starts with taking every
thought captive and something that I wanted to bring
up because I didn't talk about in the message.
But the Philippians four eight. There's kind of two
ways to approach that. There is the reactive or
there's the proactive. So the reactive is after you've
taken a thought captive, then you measure it up
(42:02):
about these things. So, is this thought true? Is
this an actual true statement? Okay. Is it honorable?
Because it can be true, but it doesn't mean
that it's going to be honorable. Is it right?
And for that, the way I distinguish the difference
between right and true, because true and right seem
very similar. But is it the right thing to
be thinking about at this time? And then is
(42:26):
it pure? And, man, we could go on and
on and on about how impure thoughts can be.
And then the one that was weird to me,
the lovely, lovely. I had somebody come up to
me after the service, is like, you know what?
I'm having some lovely thoughts now. Thank you. I
was like, good for you. Go have some lovely
thoughts. Just go for it. But is it something
(42:47):
that's drawing people together? Is it attractive thoughts? And
is it admirable? Is this, like, the thing that's
like, man, that's an awesome thought. And then is
it excellent, or is it just okay? It's like,
it's not a bad thought, but I don't want
just not bad thoughts. I want excellent thoughts. And
is it worthy of praise? Is this something that
is honoring and glorifying God? So we walk through
(43:08):
that, we take our thought, and we measure it
against that. That would be what I would describe
as reactive, because it's after the thought has already
happened, now we're reacting to it. But there's also
a proactive way to approach Philippians four eight. And
that is to sit down and say, you know
what? Let me think about what's true for a
moment. Let me force my thoughts around the truth
(43:31):
in God's word. Let me spend some time thinking
about this, and let me sit down and let
me think about some pure thought. What's pure, what
is godly, what is heavenly focused. And when we
force our brains, when we force our minds to
take that time, I don't know, maybe that's five
minutes a day. Maybe that's the first ten minutes
(43:52):
of your day. You get your list of those
eight things, and you say, you know what? For
the next five minutes, I want to think what
would be excellent. What would be something excellent to
think about right now. And I'm just going to
spend some time thinking about that because it goes
back to those neural pathways, and the more we're
training our brain to actually do these things, to
think about these things. I don't know. I hate
(44:13):
that in the message, I wasn't able to bring
that aspect out just because of time sake. But
I think that a lot of times we are
very reactionary. It's like, oh, this thing happened. Now
what do I do? Exactly, man. And it takes
more time to be proactive, to actually set aside
time where I'm going to think about what I
think about for the next ten minutes.
(44:33):
Yeah, it's that prep work piece. And the way
I see that you mentioned being able to look
at the true, look at the lovely and know
what those things look like. And it makes me
think of counterfeit bills. The officers who know love,
they don't study the fakes. They study the real
to know what the real looks like. And then
(44:55):
there's the scripture that talks about out of the
abundance. Of abundance. Exactly. And so it's like those
things that we are filling up with are eventually
going to come out, and those are the things
that we're going to think about. So if I
am in scripture and we talked about in the
sermon the importance of scripture and making sure that
we are bathing in it and we are surrounded
with it, and I think sometimes it can be
easy to forget about that piece. But as we
(45:17):
are spending time in scripture, as we are learning
more about what the word says, that's what's going
to be ingrained in us. That's what's going to
overflow out of our mouth. And so it can
be so easy. And I feel like, especially in
recent years in the christian world, overall, not CLC,
not here, but it has become so easy to
move away from scripture as the basis of everything
(45:38):
that we do. It's, hey, how can I make
my life better? How can I be happier? But
it's like the end of the day. Let's get
back to scripture and filling up with. What does
the word say? Get back to the book.
Yeah, I'm teaching a class right now in life
university on introduction to biblical interpretation. Super sexy title.
Everybody's like, man, I'm rearing for this one. But
(45:59):
actually, I think we have, like, close to 50
students in that class. Essentially, it's a hermeneutics class.
We're learning the art and the science of interpretation.
But it is so vital. If you have been
saved for more than six months, there is no
excuse for you to be biblically illiterate. And sadly,
(46:20):
there's a whole generation of Christians that are biblically
illiterate. They don't know scripture. Man, that probably breaks
my heart more than just about anything else. It's
like God gave us the Bible for a reason.
I know you love the feelings. I know you
love worship. You come in and the music makes
(46:40):
you feel a certain way. I know you love
the preaching. When the preacher is entertaining and tells
some jokes and everybody laughs, and that's great. But,
man, when's the last time you were just in
love with God's word where you were just so
passionate about. I want to learn more about what
God has to say about things. And if you
want to know what Jesus was thinking, you got
(47:03):
to read the scriptures.
Absolutely.
If you want to know why you believe what
you believe, you've got to read the Bible. You've
got to read scripture. And so we need to
move away from self help Christianity, please, and get
back into Bible based. The scriptures come alive for
us because they are life, they are truth. And
(47:24):
in a world that has forgotten what truth actually
means, we need to pick up our Bibles and
look, I love self help. I think that you
being a better version of you is a great
thing, but it's not as good as the Bible,
right? Just focus on scripture. You focus on scripture
and you will be helped.
(47:44):
Absolutely.
But this idea, this concept of self help Christianity,
man, it just. It's like a thorn in my
side. It drives me nuts. And it's funny because
think about Paul. Like, Paul comes in, he's like,
there's going to be suffering. Like, where was the
self help in Paul's day? He didn't have self
help. He was like, look, you're going to suffer,
but it's going to be good.
Or even the things that were know, Paul's like,
(48:05):
persecution. You're like, yeah, persecution. Because I posted this
on my Facebook and somebody said something negative. I'm
being persecuted.
I'm being persecuted. Nobody liked my post. That's not
persecution.
Yeah.
And there's real legitimate persecution that's happening in the
world around Christianity. It ain't really happening in the
(48:25):
US. I mean, the level of persecution that we
experience, man, nobody's coming for you.
Right.
Just. I don't know. This is so not the
thing that we're supposed to be talking about, but
here we are.
Here we are. Yeah. You talked about what we
pour in is what flows out, and being more
(48:47):
filled with scripture is going to give us those
thoughts that are more like him. And I think
that even, like, things like gratitude journals. So, I
mean, there have been literal studies. Like, people have
studied this scientifically to look and see. Okay. When
your thoughts are fixed on being thankful and grateful
for things, you're going to be thinking about being
thankful and grateful more often. Every morning, you're sitting
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down. What are ten things that I'm thankful for
today? Throughout the day, you're going to start thinking
about those things. We picked up a new car
in end of fall, and so now I see
that car everywhere. I have never seen so many
of these before. They're all over the place. But
now my brain is connected to that car, and
it's something I see every day. So now I'm
noticing it everywhere I go. So, absolutely, the things
(49:30):
that we're thinking about, the things that we're pouring
in, they come out.
Yeah, 100%. And so we've got to be careful
with what we think about, why we're thinking about
it, how we're thinking about it, and allow that
to be submitted to God. And I think that
was the last scripture that I shared about when
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you let the sinful nature drive your thoughts, it
leads to death. When you are submitted, when you
hand over that thought process to the Holy Spirit,
it leads to life. And so I think we
need to be focused on thinking the right thoughts
and surrendering. If this is not the thing that
you want me thinking about right now, I'll stop
(50:11):
thinking about it.
Yeah. Partmentalizing is helpful.
Yeah. I love it. It's awesome. All right. Any
last thoughts from Joni Bishop on how we can
do a better job of thinking like Jesus?
I think something that I have introduced into my
(50:34):
prayers over the last few years is just a
simple God, give me your heart. Give me your
heart for people. I want to see people the
way you see people. And I think that in
and of itself has been so beneficial for me
personally, because praying that prayer, sometimes he will bring
(50:54):
something to mind that may have been small and
seemingly insignificant that I might have passed over or
missed. But I think when we make it our
goal to worry about what we're not worry in
that way, but to think about what we're thinking
about. When we make it our goal to be
like minded with Christ, those things are going to
come. Those things are going to happen. So I
(51:16):
know for a fact that praying that super short,
quick, simple prayer of God, give me your heart,
I want to see people the way you see
people. He will. He absolutely wants us to have
his heart. He wants us to be more like
him. He's going to answer that prayer. He's going
to to share more of himself with us in
those moments. So I think that even praying a
(51:37):
simple prayer of God, help me to think more
like you think more like Jesus. He's going to
answer that. It is something that is going to
be honoring to him. He's going to see that
as being a good thing. So there's really no
reason for him to not answer that.
Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a
great way to start your day. Starting your day
with, okay, help me to go through today thinking
like Jesus. And we're still going to do the
(51:59):
hard work of taking every thought captive, measuring against
thing. We'll take the extra step of man, you
know what? I'm going to be proactive. I'm going
to set aside time in my day, and maybe
that means you got to wake up a little
bit earlier. Maybe that means you need to scroll
on social media a little bit less. Maybe that
means you don't watch three episodes of your favorite
show. You only watch two of them, whatever that
(52:19):
looks like. But taking time to say, okay, you
know what? I'm making this a habit in my
life. I'm going to spend a time in prayer.
I'm going to spend a time reading my Bible,
and I'm going to spend some time thinking about
what I think about. And I'm going to submit
and surrender all of my thoughts to the Holy
Spirit and say whatever you want me to be
thinking about. That's what I want to think about.
Yeah, I think. And then giving yourself grace in
the process of realizing your marathon runners don't wake
(52:42):
up one day and go, hey, I'm running a
marathon today. It's a process. You got to give
yourself grace in.
That the, the goal is to keep getting better
than you were yesterday. And even Paul said, not
that I've already achieved it, right? But I'm running
the race. And I think that's the reality for
(53:02):
all of us. The moment we achieve it is
when we're standing in heaven before the great throne.
Before that moment, we're still on a journey. You
could be 98 years old and still on that
journey. And it's going to be beautiful. It's going
to be awesome. And so keep thinking like Jesus.
Absolutely.
I like it. Well, thanks for hanging out, Joni.
(53:23):
That's fun.
Yeah. We'll get you on again. We'll see if
people still love you this episode. I don't know.
No pressure. Great watchers of between Sermons podcasts.
Yeah, we'll see what happens. Hey, so next week
is next week our one year anniversary, which is
crazy. It is week 52, and it's the anniversary
(53:45):
of the church. So how old are we turning?
34. 34 years old for church. One year old
as a podcast. That's kind of a cool milestone.
We're going to be celebrating next week talking about
how to love like Jesus.
Oh, it'll be good. Pastor Chris is bringing that
message.
She is. I don't know if we're going to
be able to get her on the podcast or
not. I'm going to talk with her, see how
(54:05):
her back is, know she's recovering from surgery. So
sitting is the hardest thing for her. So to
get her to sit on the other side of
the table with me for an hour may not
happen, but we'll see. It's a teaser for next
week. Maybe she's here, maybe she's not. Who knows?
Wait and see.
Dun dun dun. But, hey, we hope you'll be
back with us next time on between sermons. Until
(54:27):
then, God bless.
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