May 8, 2024 • 52 mins
In Autumn of 1870, Ruby Waller was sitting comfortably in her home reminiscing about her days on the streets of London as a prostitute when she received a call from the future …
Do not listen to this episode if you are under-age or have a weak stomach. Ruby is going to explain the gruesome circumstances that caused her to become a child prostitute. She'll also talk about the meeting with Charles Dickens that changed her life as well as the moment they dragged her from the river and threw her on a pile of dead bodies.
Start the episode now to join the conversation.
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From Connecticut to Maine, from Baltimore to London, Jennifer Emerson has honed her craft as a living history playwright, First-Person Interpreter, performer, and speaker over the past twenty-three years.
Her first novel, Dickens and the Whore, is a work of historical fiction concerning Dickens and his involvement in prostitution reform. Jennifer currently works as an actor with History Alive, Inc and on the staff of The House of the Seven Gables.
Her Portrayal of Ruby Waller will leave you breathless and eager to see Jennifer at one of her live events.
You can find out more about Jennifer at: thepetticoatpages.com Instagram: ThePetticoatPages1693 Facebook: facebook.com/thepetticoatpages
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Um, Tony Dean, and today we'll be callinghistory to speak with Ruby Waller.
She'll be answering our call in 1870 inher early forties at a very young age,
Ruby lost her parents and ended up asa prostitute on the streets of London.
She experienced the highestlevel of human depravity until
one day she met Charles Dickens.
(00:48):
Yeah.
Charles Dickens, the writerof a Christmas Carol.
At that time, Dickins had an idea tocreate a home for fallen women like Ruby.
These women would live in thishome, learn to read, wear colorful
dresses, go to church, andbasically trained to become a wife.
After a year of living in the house,these women were sent to Australia to
(01:08):
start a new life with a husband thatdidn't know about their background.
Ground.
It was a completely fresh startfor women who were willing
to do the work to earn it.
I know when I heard this story,I didn't believe it myself, but
you can read all about Dickensand Urania cottage on the web.
But before you listened to Ruby'sincredible journey, living on
the streets of London with anestimated 80,000 other prostitutes.
(01:32):
You need to understand that thispodcast is gruesome and violent and
crude and things are said that youwill probably never be able to forget.
Just like the conversation with Jack,the ripper we did several months
ago, there are parts of this podcastthat are not suitable for children.
It is an incredible story with a veryhappy ending, but the journey there
(01:54):
Is as painful as it is fascinating.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow history,lovers, and seamstresses everywhere.
I give you Ruby Waller.
Hello.
Is that you, Mrs.
Waller?
Yes.
Oh, yes.
I'm very surprised that you can hearme sir, but , what is your name?
Madam, my name is Tony Dean, and itis a pleasure to speak with you today.
(02:16):
I'm actually calling you fromthe future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holdingin your hand right there,
it's called a smartphone.
And it allows us to speak as if we weresitting in the same room with one another.
It also allows me to share arecord of our conversation with
people around the world in my time.
And I was hoping that I could ask you somequestions today, but before I do, Bye.
(02:37):
Bye.
Understand this is a verystrange introduction.
Can I answer any questionsthat you may have first?
Oh, well, yes dear you, you may.
It's, I thought this was some sortof music box, with flashing lights.
It's it's quite small, but I'msurprised at how light it is.
But, can you hear me, my dear?
I actually can hear you very well.
(02:59):
, The reason that, , I wanted tomake contact with you through this
is because you've been involvedin some pretty extraordinary
things in your life, including, Iunderstand that you're acquainted
with a man named Charles Dickens.
Is that right?
That is correct Tony, if Imay address you that way.
And please, although it is not Informal for terms that we are meeting one
(03:23):
another, I think given the extraordinaryterms of our meeting, I would be
pleased if you were to call me Ruby.
Well, I actually appreciate that.
And yes, definitely do call me Tony.
I guess I would like to first askyou about your meeting , with Mr.
Dickens,
And if I got this right, basically.
Yeah.
The way you met him is you wereborn in this privileged life and
(03:46):
everything that you could ever want.
And of course you spent all this time withamazing writers and artists of your time.
And that's how you ended up with Mr.
Dickens.
Right.
Yeah.
misinformed.
Although I could not speakto what you know about Mr.
Dickens.
But for myself, I was not borninto privilege, as you call it.
(04:06):
I was born in a countryside, althoughI must say it was idyllic My, my
father was a tailor and we lived ina charming village called Seven Oak.
You might be interested to knowwhy it was called Seven Oaks.
It is fascinating, I shall tell you.
We had seven large oak trees boysused to play cricket there and such.
It was a very pleasant place.
(04:27):
But, sadly, it was not to last.
Although I loved my fatherdearly, he sadly died.
And my mother remarried a man who wasNowhere near the level of care and
comfort that only a true father can give.
In fact, the man was a monster.
And my mother died ofneglect and a broken heart.
(04:52):
And Mr.
Burning plucked me from thisidyllic, which I had always
known, and brought me to the greatBabylonian metropolis of London.
And if you have read any of Mr.
Dickens work, you know that isit is not so idyllic in that
large and often barbarous city.
(05:13):
And so he had the intention, although Iwas quite young, I had no idea what he
meant at the time, of finding me a newpa, a new, father, a new man to look
after me, and I thought, well that'squite odd, you are supposed to look after
me, and as a child I had no idea what hemeant, and I soon found out, I'm sorry
to say, that, and you will excuse me,this is a bit, this is a bit difficult
(05:37):
thinking back on this he brought me toa place close to what is known as Seven
Dials, which would be I suppose in yourNew York uh, equivocable to five points,
if you knew anything about that dreadful
I definitely do.
Then you have some semblance of where I'mgoing with this, but he He presented me to
(05:57):
this great hulking beast of a man who hadclothes that were as dirty as his teeth.
And I remember his face was coveredin grime, his hair was oily and he
had this great bulge in his cheek.
And when he smiled I realizedthat he had this ooze of chewing
tobacco coming out into his mouth.
And it was Absolutelyputrid and foul, and Mr.
(06:20):
Banning looked at him and then smiled downat me and said, He's your nopar, mind him.
And the man put coins in Banning's hand.
I'd never seen anything like itand I didn't want to go with him.
I said, no, I don't want to go with him.
And the man pulled me away and I bithis hand as, as ferociously as I could.
(06:40):
I was like a wild animal.
And he pulled back, took the money out ofBanning's hand and said, to hell with you,
I can find what I want in Seven Dials.
There's plenty of young cunt there.
And he walked away.
And Banning grabbed me, and walkedwith me, and of course I was shaking.
God, good lord, I'm shakingnow just thinking about it.
And he said, perhaps I shouldtake you to Seven Dials.
(07:04):
You're good for nothing.
I should leave you in a brothel.
And I asked him, in my naivete,I said, What's a brothel?
And he pulled me into an alleyway,and he said, It's where they do this.
And he put me up against a brick wall, Andum, I don't think you could the rest.
He raped me.
And I slid down the wallwhen he was finished.
(07:24):
I've never known such pain.
Ever.
And he walked away, and he said,Waller, that's your last name.
It's where you're goingto do your best work.
And he left me there.
So no, my childhood was not idyllic.
I do hope that answers your question.
I must pause for a moment, if youdon't mind, and get a drink of water.
No, please take
(07:44):
all the time you.
need., , what made your mom likeeven interested in a man like this?
, why was she interested in him at all?
How did they get married?
We have to understand that in my day inthis time that I live in and my god I pray
it's different in your time for the womenwho are using such devices as we are that
(08:05):
a woman must remarry when her husbanddies or she has no financial security
unless she's rich unless she has her ownindependent money which most women do not
unless you're considering a Coutts MissBurdett Coutts who I shall tell you about
it later if you don't, if you'd like,but she had to remarry, and at first Mr.
Banning seemed quite charming, as theyoften can, no offence to present company,
(08:29):
sir, but you men can be shifty,, andat first he was very attentive, very
gentle, very sweet, and then after allwas said and done, it happened gradually,
as abuse often does, doesn't it?
It started with critiquing whetherthe tea was hot enough, whether
her hair was as neat and tidyas it had been the day before.
(08:49):
Little things.
And it wore her down bit by bit.
And of course I was so young.
I knew something was wrong and Iknew my mummy was sad, but I didn't
understand what was happening.
? And by the time she died, All I couldthink of was how sad that my mummy was
dead, and how much I missed her, andof course it brought back the death
of my father all over again, and Idon't think I ever really said goodbye
(09:13):
to them the way that the way that oneshould if they have a healthy mind.
Your father was nothing like this.
Your father was a good man.
Is
Oh, of course not.
No, my father was the mostwonderful, loving, caring man.
He taught me to sew, which, if my lifehad been different, I would have gone into
that, in a respectable millinery perhaps.
(09:36):
But he oh, I wish everyonecould have a father like I did.
I wish you could have had him longer.
Oh, so do I.
I wish he was still with us, , andmy present husband, my only husband.
The love of my life Dr.
Wilkins, although we are onfirst names terms, aren't we?
So his name is Joe.
(09:57):
But I wish Joe could have met my father.
They would have gotten along.
They would have taken to each otherlike pitch, as the sailors say.
Oh, and I hadn't met a man as kind andas gentle as my father before I met Joe.
And I thank God for him every day.
In fact I think perhaps my fatherhad A little something to do with it.
(10:20):
Perhaps he put in a good word andasked the Lord to send a man like
Jo to take care of his little girl.
How long have you beenmarried to Joe now?
Oh, we've been married 21 years.
I met him when I was quite young.
Of course I'm not that old now.
I'm only 40.
They always
of years left.
Oh, thank you.
They always say, never ask awoman her age, so I thought
(10:40):
I'd just tell you anyway.
You know, you've had quite a rollercoaster in your life between this
wonderful father and this wonderfulhusband and the monster in between.
And , that's what I find so fascinatingabout your story is how you made
it through that terrible time.
I guess I'm wondering, like afterthat, that first incident on
(11:02):
the wall, which I appreciateyou, , being so open about that.
What happened next in your life?
Was that the last timethat you saw him or did
you continue to?
Oh, that was the last time you saw him.
Never saw him again, he left me.
And where he went, God only knows.
I pray he never hurt anotherchild, but he probably did.
I know not where he went after that.
But what happened was that and I lay therefor quite some time, you can understand.
(11:25):
I was in such pain, I was bleeding.
And I wanted to die.
I did.
And it's not the first time inmy life that I've wished that.
How old would you have been at that time?
I was about ten years old.
Just a little child.
So where does it, wheredoes a 10 year old go next?
I wish I knew.
I would have laid there forever anddied if it weren't for the a girl
(11:46):
who came up to me and I could smellher before I saw her because she was
a sort of street child I thought.
And I saw her and I looked up andshe wasn't, she was dressed in very
dirty clothes and she looked at meand she said, what are you crying for?
And I said, the man hurt me.
And she said, you want to live?
Come with me.
Or you can lay there.
(12:07):
And I got up, and it was difficultto walk, but I followed her a short
distance, and she took me to the house.
And I was afraid to sit down,and there was an older woman in
there who was not very kind to me.
And after a time, a man walked in.
Dressed in beautiful clothesand he introduced himself
(12:28):
with great kindness as Top.
That was his name.
He went by Top because of thisbeautiful top hat that he always wore.
And he said that he would take care of me.
And he picked me up likemy father used to do.
And he brought me to a room upstairs.
And he took care of my wounds and he putme in a bed and gave me some laudanum
(12:52):
and I fell asleep and I cannot explainit, but I instantly felt safe with him.
I did not know him from Adam,I'd never seen him, never met
him, but I felt safe with him.
Which was one of thegreatest mistakes of my life.
Because he saw me as Someoneto make money off of.
(13:15):
He cared for me, but there was a price.
And I became his, not onlyhis lover, but his employee.
He was my friend and my confidant andmy protector until I turned twelve.
And I do not know how it iswhere you are on the other end
of this fantastic machine, sir.
(13:36):
But here that is the age of consent.
And that was the night he tookme, and I became his lover.
So at 12 years old, can youget married at 12 years old?
yes.
Can a woman be a full timeprostitute at 12 years old?
Oh, twelve might beconsidered an old maid.
(13:58):
My dear sir, there are some childrenwho are broken in at the age of five.
Oh my goodness.
That is horrifying.
So from this point forward,he's looking at you as property.
You're an asset to his business.
Yes, and unfortunately for me,I also became his obsession.
But he lavished affectionand attention on me.
(14:20):
my, my bedroom, it was turned intosomething of a wonderland of swathing
fabrics and different textures and things.
And I've always enjoyed fashionbecause Father taught me to sew.
And so he, he gave me access to fashionmagazines and he would buy them for
me and he'd buy me fabric and I couldturn myself into these fantastical
(14:42):
characters with these costumes.
And of course the men loved it.
And many customers would come tovisit me and they would pay well.
And the reason that I never run away.
Because I was , a lot smarter by thistime about how the game was played.
But I didn't leave because Irealized, even though he was quite
(15:05):
mad, I realized how safe I was.
I wasn't in Seven Dials.
I was not on the street.
I was not hanging aroundthe docks every night.
I was warm.
I was safe.
I had food to eat.
All the attention I could crave,but I wasn't free, and I had to
suffer , all these men that he broughtin , for me to service, shall we say.
(15:27):
So I'd stayed.
so it's interesting that you went tothe question of why didn't you leave?
Because, , I could literally feel what theanswer was going to be to that based on
this picture that you're painting for me.
It's clear why you can't leave becauseyou're so young , what would you do?
It's not like you can go get another job.
You're not going to go starta business or something.
(15:48):
I'm.
I'm guessing that, like, there'snot a lot of people that are looking
for, , 10 or 11 year olds, , towork in their shop, even, maybe.
, there was literally no place togo because your parents are gone,
and the man that should have beentaking care of you just threw you
away like you were a piece of trash.
Yes, that's exactly what As far asjobs I've assumed that you're familiar
(16:12):
with you said you researched Mr.
Dickens and you're familiar withhis book A Christmas Carol, are you?
Yes.
Yes, well, do you know old Joe in thesweatshop when, in the, they bring in
the bed curtains and such and they'regoing to when the ghost of Christmas
future is showing old Scrooge thathis belongings are being sold off?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Do you remember that bit?
(16:33):
Well, the those sweatshops where the,we call them, you know, rag shops.
I think, what did he say?
Rags, bones, bottles andbits of greasy offal.
I like that bit from the book becauseI've seen it with my own eyes.
And Children often could work in thoseconditions as well, but of course it was
dirty, it's flea ridden and rats runningall about, and it's not hygienic or
(16:55):
safe at all and the children are quiteyoung there and they're not taken care
of, so there there were options but asyou can gather, not very glamorous ones.
So I stayed.
Where I was because I knew that.
I knew that although I was comfortablebut although I hated it, at the
same time, I was comfortable and I'dbetter just thank God for me blessings
(17:17):
such as they were, although I cursedhim for the situation I was in.
Didn't believe in him for a long time.
You can understand why, I'm sure.
definitely.
And I can see what you're saying exactly.
Because if you were to leave,you'd have the same awful.
It would just be worse.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, how long were you, how longwere you involved with Top?
(17:37):
How long was this, didthis arrangement last?
Well, I was his employer for about seven.
years, but I was in hishousehold for about nine.
And then I met Mr.
Dickens.
could
me about Mr.
Dickens.
What if you were to go to the police?
What would have happened then?
I, I suppose, I could have goneto the peelers as, as we call them
(18:00):
and they could have taken me away,but you see, I was a prostitute.
And they do one thing withprostitutes, they lock them up.
Well I could have gone on myown, or they would have sent me
to a place such as the Magdalene.
And the Magdalene is a place for girlssuch as myself to get off the street.
But they only keep you for one year.
(18:20):
And then they toss youback out on the street.
So it was jail, a place whereI wouldn't be safe, or death.
So I stayed where I was.
The
Jeez.
I have to guess that a lot of peoplewould probably do the same thing.
with no other options.
You'd be surprised how many chose OldFather Thames as their only way out.
(18:41):
When you are involved with Topp, andthere are other women, obviously,
that he would consider his employees,he would consider his employees.
What would the relationshipbe with you and those people?
Would it have been good?
, were your friends, were you competitors?
What did that look like?
In his particular household,he only kept me in his home.
(19:03):
When he would leave for days ata time, he might come back and
I would complain to him and say,you've not paid attention to me.
Because I realized that Icould pull his strings a bit,
and then he'd be nice to me.
And he would say, I'm sorry,I had pressing business I
had to attend to elsewhere.
And I realized, that's what it was.
(19:23):
He had a brothel that he was running.
But I never saw it.
I never went there.
And he never told me where it was, andI suppose that was to, , cover his own
ass, , to make sure that if I did runaway, or I went to the peelers, or I tried
to get help, that I wouldn't be able totell them where this place was, and that
(19:45):
was his his own protection for himself,because I had no idea where it was,
but I know damn well that's what he wasdoing, because he was doing it with me.
Yes I was his property and I was hisemployee, but he hand chose these men
to come see me because I was his best.
And he liked to keep me close, as he said.
(20:05):
And sometimes there weren't other menspending the night with me, it was him.
That's actually what Iwas just going to ask you.
Were you his most valuable employee?
Most certainly, yes.
I think he also considered mehis girl, which is disgusting,
but that's what he considered me.
And it's funny because I've talkedto other women who've been through
(20:27):
what I've been through and of course,, they'll say, , he never struck me.
He never hurt me physically,but I wasn't free.
And that, that, you're justas much of a victim then.
And that's what it was with Top.
He never hurt me physically.
He never forced me to do anything.
He charmed me into this, you see,because he was very manipulative.
(20:49):
The man was absolutely mad.
Did you feel like a slave?
I felt a slave of a kind.
Oh, of course, because I had to dothis, you know, for my own sustenance.
But it had been, Oh, I hate touse the phrase, but it's true.
I've been broken in at such a young age.
I'd forgotten what that idyllic childhoodwas like back in the countryside of Kent.
(21:13):
I'd forgotten it.
I'd washed it clean, the traumaof where my life was now.
I couldn't face any of that.
I couldn't face even consideringwhat my mother and father would
have thought of me, that I'dsunk so low to become this thing.
To become a piece ofmeat that men play with.
(21:33):
They didn't raise me that way.
That's never what they wanted for me.
And yet, they left me.
And I did what I had to.
Okay, so, tell me about Dickens.
So now you run into
Mr.
Dickens.
What ha wha what does that look like?
It was a night in the autumn of1847 and I was some distance from
(21:55):
where I was living at the time.
I was in in Suffolk, which is on theother side of the Thames and I liked to,
to walk at night sometimes and when Topwas away with his other business I would
sneak out and I'd go for walks and I'dlike to walk at night because I knew how
to take care of myself and It was darkand it was quiet and normally nobody
(22:17):
bothered me because I was just so small Ilooked like a little waif walking around.
And I was sitting on the stepsnear Suffolk Cathedral having
a, what they called a cigarette.
I don't even know if youall know what that is.
But Turkish cigarettes had just come intofashion and I was able to acquire some
through some of my gentleman clients.
(22:39):
And So I was sitting there, doing that,and what I realized, I could see a
small bit of light, and I realized itwas a lantern, and , the person who
was holding the lantern turned, andstarted walking towards me, and I
thought, oh God, , someone's found me.
But it wasn't a peeler, it wasn'ta policeman, I could tell by
(23:02):
the hat, it was a wide brimmed.
The man was shorter andhad a large coat on.
He didn't look, , very glamorous.
And he asked me, If he could sit downand I said he asked me what's your fare?
So he knew what I was and I said wellfor you handsome five shillings And he
laughed and he said you're very beautiful.
(23:22):
You should charge more and For somereason that I liked to twinkle in his
eye and I invited him to come sit downwith me and I thought I'll see who this
is and maybe I can get some money outof it Because you understand that's
where I was in my mind at the time.
What can I get out of it?
That's what you have to, that's what youhave to factor in when you're surviving.
(23:43):
It's always what you can getout of someone, because if you
don't do that, you're dead.
So he sat down next to me and , hewasn't a tall man, quite lean, and he
set his lantern down, and I got a goodlook at his face and he had a very
nice face handsome of a kind, a bitmore like a dandy with his clothing.
(24:03):
I wouldn't call him a tough, large, manlysailor or a miner or something like that.
But he was handsome and he hadbrilliant light eyes , blue eyes.
They looked as though there weretwo lamps lit behind them with
brilliant eyes and they were drinkingme in, but not in a lustful way.
And that's what confused me.
(24:24):
I thought, what's he on about?
What does he want?
He didn't look, he didn't look mad.
He didn't look like Top, you know.
He had, he seemed sensible.
But his waistcoat gave him away.
His vest.
Do you understand what I mean?
His vest.
I do, yeah.
we call it a waistcoat.
It was Paisley, beautiful swirlyPaisley pattern, it was velvet, and
(24:45):
he had, this is what really give itaway, a gold watch chain that was so
thick and so gregarious that I knewthe man had dosh in his pocket, I knew
he was, you know he was rich, eventhough he wasn't dressed in that way.
And started to tease him a little bitand I thought, Oh dear, you want to talk?
Oh, you having trouble with your girl?
(25:05):
And he laughed and he said, No, and ifmy wife could hear you, she'd laugh.
Apparently he didn't havetrouble with his girl.
And I started toying with his watchchain and bringing me fingers up
and down stroking the chain, youknow, stroking his chain as they say.
Oh Lord, I haven't talkedabout this in years.
But, oh, I had fun with him, I did.
(25:28):
And I could tell he was getting a bitflustered, I was getting under his skin.
And he asked me if I wouldgo for a walk with him.
He wanted to talk withme and that he'd pay me.
He'd pay my fare for my time.
And I thought, Well, I don't have to go tobed with him and he's willing to pay me.
It's getting cold out.
(25:49):
Why not?
So, I went with him.
And he said it was mychoice where we went.
And I said well, across the Thames inTottenham Court Road is the Rookery.
Marvellous gin palace.
And I was quite partialto gin in those days.
And he said, alright.
Are you up for a bit of a trudge?
And I said, of course.
And so we walked.
(26:09):
Lord, he was a fast walker.
And I was very fit for my age.
A little spry thing.
I had trouble keeping up with him.
Lord, that man could walk!
And we got there and we went in andwhen I'm with a client I like to search
some semblance of self sufficiencyand I had some coin in my pocket
and I insisted on buying , my own
(26:31):
and he, he was so taken aback, asof course most men are he said, To
have a woman by is positively absurd.
And I said, well, you let me byif you want my company tonight.
And that was the end of that.
These gin palaces are, Don't know ifyou have them, but they're brilliantly
lit with gas lamps and they're allcold guilt and glittering and full
(26:52):
of pipe smoke and song and more typesof gin than you can think about.
And back behind the bar, itjust is a huge wall of barrels,
of different types of gin.
And they say things like . Samson1421 and other types and that's
actually my favorite kind and that'swhat I ordered and outside there
(27:13):
was a little a cart where theywere selling , fried fish and such.
And so we, we got that and we sat downat a table and there was a woman singing
Cherry Ripe, which is a rather risquesong, you know, Cherry Ripe, coming by.
And He started asking me questionsabout my life and what I would do
if I had another chance at life,and then I started to panic and I
(27:36):
thought, this pretty little man mightbe a policeman, in plain clothes.
And I thought, oh God, that's all I need.
I'd rather die than go to jail.
And he assured me that he wasn't.
Just to be clear, this is Charles Dickens
We're talking about.
yes it is.
You're at the gin palace.
I'm
I mean, it
(27:56):
feel like I'm watching a movieand I'm wishing that I was in it.
And so you're sitting there drinkinggin, listening to this song.
With Charles Dickens.
And so what, and you guys startdrinking gin, I'm guessing.
yes, he he tucked in as well.
He had some of the friedfish and he had a gin.
Yes, I'm not sure what a movie is, but Ican tell you that it was quite a sight!
(28:18):
If there was some, someone who couldpaint it, I would pay them to do it.
It was brilliant!
Looking back, this is why I laughso hard now, along with you, because
it must have been quite a sight.
But you see, at
He has a very trusting wife.
I should, well I met her, I shouldtell you about her later if you
like girl that poor woman, but I didnot know who he was at this point.
(28:42):
He never told me his name, I nevertold him anything about me, really,
he knew me by , my business name,my nom de plume, you might say.
I went by the name Lilac.
Never used me real name.
Top insisted on that.
You see if anyone like Banning wastrying to find me, so I always went by
(29:02):
Lilac and I called Dickens the Dandy.
I said I don't care what your name is,but I'm up for anything you are up for.
I can cure whatever'sailing your sweetheart.
That's what I told him.
So I didn't know who he wasthe first few times that I met
him, I had no idea who he was.
It was only, I think, a second orthird time I met him that he finally
(29:24):
told me who he was and why he wasso interested in talking to me.
So,
interested in my services, so to speak.
That's really not what hewas interested in at all.
this had to be,, the best feeling,to finally meet a man that was
actually interested in you,
Yeah.
of what you could do.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, As confusing as it was refreshing,but I got bored with it after a while,
(29:49):
So the whole time you're walkingwith him and you see the gold
watch, are you thinking howmuch money you can get from him?
Are you also thinking,what can I steal from him?
Is there is that kind ofthe mentality as well?
Yeah.
My God, Tony, you would havefit right in with us then.
Yes, absolutely.
If you don't know, you must berelated to the Artful Dodger.
(30:11):
Yes yes.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
It's always what you can get.
And that watch chain was quite nice.
And I did get quite a few close ups of it.
Close views.
Other than that hisclothes were quite plain.
I couldn't have gotten anything for hisshoes but I did notice when we got into
the light of the Jin Palace that he had avery fetching ring on his little finger.
(30:32):
And he kept twisting it, actually,when he was talking to me.
The man was a great fidget.
He was always fidgeting.
And also, he had hair that wasalmost down to his shoulders.
It was a bit long, a bitI might call it bohemian.
And he had no whiskers, as well.
He was clean shaven.
And by that time, in the late40s, it was more of a fashion
(30:53):
for men to be growing whiskers.
And that also made me think,well, he is a bit odd.
But as good looking as he was and ascharming as he was I started to believe
that he wasn't interested in me in thenormal modus operandi that he really
was trying to talk about me with things,but it was why that I didn't know.
(31:14):
You understand.
So that's when I thought he might bea policeman and I got bored with him
because it wasn't going anywhere.
And I didn't want to talk about thestory of my life , I didn't want to be
interviewed even though he was paying me.
I was 17, I was young, I was foolish,and I was selfish and I didn't want that.
And Also to see whether or not hereally meant it, I started to make
(31:37):
the eye at someone who had noticed us.
He was at the bar.
And he was a great big fella.
And I could tell in his coat,he had this ivory carved pin.
It was hand carved, and it was in theshape of the front of a whale boat.
And it was called a chock pin.
And I knew because I'd serviced sailorsbefore, that pin meant that the man
(32:00):
was a harpooner on a whaling ship.
Which was quite a place of status,so he'd be quite respected, they
have to be very cunning and verystrong and quick to do what they do.
And he saw me and he looked at meas if he was ready to devour me and
I thought, well, let's test thisdandy and see if he really means it.
And the sailor came over to the tableand he held out his hand and Dickens
(32:25):
put his hand on my arm and he whisperedin my ear, he said, stay with me.
And I said, why?
And he said, well, you'll be safewith me, I want to talk to you more.
And I wish that I wish that I had believedhim, but in my years of abuse I Had been
led to believe that all men are liars.
And I left him.
(32:46):
I went with the harpoonier.
I turned around to Dickens andI said, You'd be better off with
a copy of Fanny Hill, darling.
And I walked away.
And it was one of thegreatest mistakes of my life.
What happened next?
Well, I went with this manand did what he paid me to do.
And I stole his walletwhen we was finished.
(33:06):
Because he underpaid me.
He didn't think I was worthwhat I had charged him.
It was very rude.
And I ran home, and through a seriesof circumstances I found myself back
out on the street, walking about.
And this was some time later, andhe'd found me, he'd been looking for
me, and he wanted his wallet back.
(33:27):
And there was a great strugglein an alleyway, another alleyway,
with a man who wanted to hurt me.
And he ran away.
I fought him off as best I could,even hitting him with the stave of a
barrel, hitting him over the head asmuch as I could, and even though he
was bleeding, it wasn't enough to knockhim down, and the same thing happened
(33:47):
that had happened all those years ago.
He raped me up against a brickwall, and he left me there.
So it was two men thathad done this to me.
And at that point I didn'twant to live anymore.
I could barely walk.
I was delirious.
And I just kept walking,and people pushing me out of
the way, they didn't care.
And I realized I was near the river, andthe best of my memory is that I fell in.
(34:12):
I think it just, in the hustleof the crowd, I think I just
lost me footing and I fell in.
And the next thing I knew I wokeup in, in a prison hospital.
It was awful.
Do you think that maybe you weretrying to end your life right there
i, I I don't remember.
It's all very jumbled in mymind, and it was so long ago.
(34:35):
I have not thought on itin a great period of years.
But I remember seeing the waterand being in so much pain.
I must have considered it.
I will own that.
I must have considered it.
But did I actually jump?
No.
But as I said, all of asudden the water was upon me.
And I knew nothing after thatuntil I opened my eyes in
(34:56):
a hospital bed in a prison.
And so did you seeDickens again after this?
Yes I did after I, I had a raging feverafter I was pulled out to the Thames.
And in fact, before we, we get totelling you about the prison I should
like to tell you when I I came toconsciousness briefly in the boat,
when they, these two boatmen had seenme fall in and they fished me out.
(35:20):
And I puked up, I, what must be abouthalf the Thames over the side of this
And that was another awful adventurebecause those two men their job was
to fish bodies out of the river.
Oh, jeez.
By the time they got to me, Tony, I thinkthey thought I was dead because I was,
I must have been just floating there.
(35:42):
I wasn't moving.
I didn't kick.
I didn't struggle.
I just was floating there,you know, face down.
You understand.
I could have drowned.
I would have died if they hadn't foundme and pulled me out when they did.
It was that close.
They laid me down in the boat and Iwoke up briefly and I realized I wasn't
in heaven because I wouldn't have beenin that much pain if I was in heaven.
(36:03):
And
Hopefully heaven doesn't look likean old moldy boat with some sailors
scooping up bodies at night either.
indeed, and hopefully itdoesn't smell that bad either.
And I realized that I waslying atop something very cold.
and unmoving and very hard.
And I reached my hand up tentativelyand every muscle in my body ached.
(36:26):
And I realized I was touching someone'scheek and it was sponge like and
I lift my head and it was a woman.
Her eyes were clear andunmoving and mouth was open.
I realized I was lying on top of a corpse.
Another, perhaps anothergirl just like me.
And she was dead.
And
you out of the river andthrew you on a pile of bodies.
(36:47):
was a pile of bodies, and I was stillalive, and one of the men in the boat
basically said she has to pay forher life as well, we've all got sins.
The other men in the boat said,I remember him saying, what's
one less whore in the world?
And the other one said to him, ohcome on, we can save one, can't we?
And we was close to Westminster Bridge.
(37:08):
And so they decided to make for theWestminster Steps, Tothfields Prison.
in, in Bridewell is, it's close to
well, it was past the Houses ofParliament in that area of London.
And it was, so it was the closestplace, and they took me there.
I'd passed out again from pain.
And then they brought me there, andI, briefly remember walking in, I was
(37:31):
on it, they were carrying me in and myhead was upward and I remember walking
past this great big door that had thislarge lion's head door knocker on it.
And it was the most frightening thingI'd ever seen . And I I woke up in bed
in the prison hospital in the infirmary.
(37:52):
And that is where I met my husband.
He was my doctor.
Your husband must be a good man to beable to look past your circumstances.
he'd never judged me, Tony.
Not for a minute.
He'd been a sailor himself.
And , because he lived the life hehad, he didn't judge, he understood,
of course he treated the very wealthy,he treated the very poor he also gave
(38:16):
of his time at a local workhouse to,to help treat the invalid and the ill
there, and those conditions there arethe god, they're practically prisons
themselves, so he didn't judge.
As a past sailor, you think maybe hehad some of his own sins to atone for?
Oh, of course he did.
Of course.
Gosh.
And, but his stories were marvelous.
(38:37):
And he told me about places such asPeru, which is, I believe on the West
Coast of your South Americas and all theplaces in the world that he had been.
And of course the women indifferent parts of the world.
And I asked him, I pressed him about that.
And of course he turned bright red.
And of course , I knowhe had sins of his own.
But I think that's why you are correct.
(38:59):
I think he, he did not judge me becausehe'd lived a bit of a wild life himself.
But it's very kind.
But he had to concentrateon saving my life at first.
, we weren't, , star crossedlovers from the beginning.
This was not Romeo and Juliet.
In fact, I couldn't stand him
Right.
There wasn't a big sloppy kiss
I did.
Oh heavens.
(39:20):
No, heavens.
No, I'd have kicked himin the head if he tried.
Okay.
So he's nursing you back to health in
prison now.
And being very tough as well.
Very tough.
I was, and I will admit to you,Tony, I was a rubbish patient.
I was absolutely disgraceful as a patient.
But I do have a sharp temper,in case you haven't noticed.
Um, and, And I would not obey.
(39:42):
And he'd say, trying to get me to take themedicine, and he'd tell the woman who was
assisting him, he'd say, , if we have to,you hold her down and I'll shove it in.
And I said to him, oh, familiarwords indeed, kind of you to
make me feel at home, doctor.
, and so I thought he wasjudging me, and he wasn't..
Because that's the goal ofa doctor is to do no harm.
(40:02):
And he was trying not to harm me, but I'msure I was driving him absolutely mad.
And the time he really holleredat me was after he'd stabilized
my life but I still couldn't walk.
And I from all the gin that I had beendrinking in my young life, I also had
come down with gout in my foot and itwas about three times the size as it was.
(40:24):
So my legs were wobbly anyway from havingbeen raped and having the fire of nearly
dying, you know, your limbs when you aredehydrated and you've been through it.
a terrible shock.
You know, they just scream with pain.
But I wanted to get up.
I didn't want to be there.
And I tried to get up andI fell flat on my ass.
And he walked in and he screamed at me.
(40:47):
Absolutely screamed at me.
And that is when I crumbled.
And he held me by my arms and I hithis chest with my fists and I said if
I'm such a, if I'm such a nuisance,why don't you just let me die?
Why don't you just let me die then?
And . I cried and he held me likehe was consoling a little girl
(41:09):
that had woken from a nightmare.
And in that moment I felt safe and itwas almost some people may consider this
to be quite strange, but I felt almostas if my father was holding me again.
It was that type of kindness.
, you know, Top's kindnesswas fake, but this was real.
Something about it, and I didn't trustit yet, because who, trust a man?
(41:32):
Safety?
What's that?
Nothing's safe.
Safety doesn't exist, love doesn't exist.
And yet, I felt safe with him and hepicked me up like I was a ragdoll.
He was a strong fella.
And he put me back in the bedand he covered me very tenderly.
, showing genuine concernfor a fellow human being.
And he leaned over me and hesaid, I'm sorry I yelled at
(41:54):
you, but I had to be certain.
And I said, certain of what?
You bastard, you know.
Between my tears, I'mstill hollering at him.
And he said, Well, I have tochange my diagnosis now, Ruby.
I said, to what?
And he said, you're gonna live.
Oh, wow.
got the fire, you've gotfire, you're gonna live.
(42:16):
And that was the moment we became friends.
I never yelled at him again.
And he called me uh, Puss.
Puss.
For obvious reasons that was my nicknamebeing the fact that I had been a
prostitute and and I called him Boots.
So we were Puss and Boots.
Oh,
(42:36):
So, I want to know what happenednext, but I'm curious how long
until the two of you got married.
oh yes we maintained a cordial friendship.
I mean, he was always respectful to me.
And some months after I was judgedto be healthy enough, when I
was fit enough, I was sent fromthe prison to Urania Cottage.
(43:01):
And , I found out that wasthe whole reason that Mr.
Dickinson wanted to talkto me in the first place.
He was going out.
And talking to girls like me andvisiting prisons talking to girls like
me to discern whether or not we weresuitable candidates for this brand
new experiment that he had designed.
(43:24):
So Dickens had a motiveand his motive was this
did you but did you say Urania cottage or
Cottage, cottage, as in a house.
Yes, Urania cottage.
And it was a, it was indeed a small house.
In Limegrove, in, in Shepherd'sBush on Golden Hawk Road, , I don't
(43:45):
know if you've been to London, butit's it's west of the more popular
places in London that that Mr.
Dickens made famous in his books.
But that's where it was.
It was a small house.
Not very grand at all.
In fact, when I finally saw it I wasa bit unnerved by the fact that it
had this very high wooden fence allaround it, and I thought, I've just
(44:07):
come from one prison to another.
He lied to me.
The bastard lied to me.
He said it wasn't a prison.
Why is this bloody highwall around the thing?
And we went in, and it was not an nota an impressive house, as I said, but
it looked very nice on the inside.
Nice bright paper, curtains,lots of different colours and
comfortable sofas and things.
(44:28):
But the, oh, and I should, Tony, beforeI, we actually go into the house, I would
like to take you back to the prison,to when Dickens came to talk to me.
Because I I've, I must tell youthat, otherwise it won't make sense.
And so he did come to the prison,and what I found out was that
Governor Tracy, who was the director,shall we say, of the prison.
(44:52):
A nice man, by the way.
I met him before I left.
And what Dickens had done is thathe'd gone round to all these prisons
and he'd given these letters thathe, the letter that he had written
himself and had printed, and hedistributed them to the governors
of all these prisons in the area.
And he told the governors that if a womancomes in who is in a certain situation
(45:15):
and you think would be a suitablecandidate for this for this project.
Give her the letter.
If she can't read, read it to her andthen gauge her reaction and tell me if
you think I should come and talk to her.
That's what he did.
And , Mr.
Tracy came in and he read me the letter.
Of course, I did know howto read, but he helped me.
(45:38):
And It said at the bottomit was signed a friend.
It wasn't signed Charles Dickens.
So still, I did not know there wasa connection between the letter
and this dandy that I had met.
By then he'd told me his name.
But because the letter said afriend, I didn't have a connection.
(45:58):
And so wasn't I gobsmacked whenDickens walked in to the infirmary.
and there he was that's when you
There he was.
And I, in my mind, Isaid, God damn, it's him.
That's when I realized this was themost famous writer in the world.
You could argue the most famousman in the world at that point,
(46:19):
other than Prince Albert.
Bless him.
But And then I got a goodlook at him this time.
We weren't in a gin palace,we weren't in a handsome cab,
going around London and arguing.
This is when I really gota good look at the man.
This legendary Author,this wizard of words.
And he had that, that same hairthat was all unkempt that he would
(46:42):
often comb through with his fingers.
As I said, he was a very fidgety man.
Those bright eyes, a smile,clean shaven, which, so he
stood out from most other men.
Lean, not to uh, Ditch a fat on him,lean fellow, very fit, of course,
with all that walking and, dareI say, making all those children.
He never had any spare time, buthe was never idle, and he came
(47:04):
in with the brightest smile anda loud, paisley waistcoat same,
Gorgeous, glorious watch chain.
A gold ring through his cravat, throughhis the piece of fabric around his neck.
Ruffly shirt and checked trousers thatlook that look a bit like a checkerboard.
That's why we call them checked trousers.
With a big black line downthe outside of each seam.
(47:27):
And brilliantly polished shoes.
And canary yellow gloves.
I mean, he was a sight.
Ruffly Nothing matched, and yeton him, it was a work of art.
Ruby.
I'm trying to figuresomething out right now.
Oh Why does the world's most famousman or most famous writer at the
(47:48):
time, why is he walking the streets?
Why does he care about this?
Why isn't he working on his next book?
How is this his job to save the criminalsand the prostitutes and go to the jails
and talk to all the governors of thejails and governor Tracy and all that?
Why does he care about all this?
ah, well you see when it comes to Mr.
Dickens, walking the streets and talkingto the downtrodden, and working on his
(48:12):
next book, one hand shakes the other.
That's exactly how he wrote his books.
He went out and he talked to people.
He met real people.
He talked to them.
He used them in his stories.
He used their names in his stories.
And it can be argued, and I canspeak from personal experience,
because he saved my life!
That night, he saved my life, he did,just by walking around, and yes, he
(48:36):
was researching for stories and Iwould say, if you look at Oliver Twist,
and poor Nancy, and the fate that,that befalls her, you look at the
prostitutes, the downtrodden women,the abused women in books, far after
Oliver Twist, such as in Little Dorrit,and David Copperfield, like poor
(48:56):
little Emily, She didn't die, did she?
She got a new life.
And where did she go?
Australia.
And you know where that come from?
Urania Cottage, because that's whathappened to us after we graduated.
We were sent to Australiato begin a new life.
Okay.
We got to talk about Urania.
We got
Oh, yes.
Yes, we need to.
(49:17):
okay, but you know, I got to tellyou as you're talking about this
and I asked the question why hespent time with prostitutes and
you explain that so clearly.
One of my favorite writers was talkingabout, , answering a question to somebody
who asked him, how do I become a writer?
And he basically told himgo experience something.
And That's exactly what Dickenswas . doing He was going to the
(49:38):
place that he normally wouldn't goso he could experience something
that he normally wouldn't experience.
He always had an eye for adventure.
He always wanted adventures.
He told me once that he had wantedto be an actor when he was young.
And and that he'd had, he evenhad an audition in Corbett Garden.
And that, day of his audition,he'd come down with a terrible
(49:59):
head cold and he couldn't go.
But he always wanted, so he missed hisaudition, poor thing, but he always
wanted to be an actor and he always was.
Always going to the theatre,it was always stories.
And before he became anovelist, he was a journalist.
So he was always asking questionsbecause you see, his genius,
he knew that, he's not the onlywriter that knew it, but the job.
(50:23):
The goal of a good writer is not to tella good story, it is to ask questions.
Because only in doing that do youget the answers, and then with
those answers you can make them see.
You can make your audience see withthe words that you're putting to paper.
And that was his genius.
If it was true in his head, itwas true in the rest of the world.
(50:45):
And that's why we love him.
How close were you tostealing that gold watch?
There was one night ismy husband close by?
I'm just looking.
Oh, no, he's in hispractice, so his door's shut.
Well, I should tell you I'll justturn my chair around and face
the fire so he can't hear me.
But there was one night beforeI, , before I was, I found myself
in the Thames and was in, in theprison where I met Joe, that Dickens
(51:08):
and I had gone back to the rookery.
And we'd had a, we'd knocked backquite a few gins, and I'd had it by
this point of who this dandy was,and why was he always picking me up,
and why was he always just talking.
As I said, I was an idiot.
I should have just been gratefulthat he didn't want to hurt me.
And after a few drinks,I straddled his lap.
(51:30):
And I kissed him full on, becausemind you, he wouldn't touch me.
I kissed him full on, and we wereforehead to forehead, and I basically
said to him, Stop pretending.
You think you're a littlegentleman, don't you?
You really think you can pull itoff, but secretly you'd love to
know what it's like to just runaway, and let go, and be one of us.
(51:51):
The story of Ruby Waller isa painful one to listen to.
And it's hard to imaginewhat would have happened.
Had she never run into CharlesDickens in this next episode,
she'll talk about Urania cottage.
And how these fallen womenmanaged to live together in
hopes of creating a better life
and now they occasionallyhad to push people out of the
house that wouldn't cooperate.
(52:12):
I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribednow, and we'll see you at the next
episode of the calling historypodcast with part two of Ruby Waller.
Um, Tony Dean, and today we'll be callinghistory to speak with Ruby Waller.
She'll be answering our call in 1870 inher early forties at a very young age,
Ruby lost her parents and ended up asa prostitute on the streets of London.
She experienced the highestlevel of human depravity until
one day she met Charles Dickens.
(00:48):
Yeah.
Charles Dickens, the writerof a Christmas Carol.
At that time, Dickins had an idea tocreate a home for fallen women like Ruby.
These women would live in thishome, learn to read, wear colorful
dresses, go to church, andbasically trained to become a wife.
After a year of living in the house,these women were sent to Australia to
(01:08):
start a new life with a husband thatdidn't know about their background.
Ground.
It was a completely fresh startfor women who were willing
to do the work to earn it.
I know when I heard this story,I didn't believe it myself, but
you can read all about Dickensand Urania cottage on the web.
But before you listened to Ruby'sincredible journey, living on
the streets of London with anestimated 80,000 other prostitutes.
(01:32):
You need to understand that thispodcast is gruesome and violent and
crude and things are said that youwill probably never be able to forget.
Just like the conversation with Jack,the ripper we did several months
ago, there are parts of this podcastthat are not suitable for children.
It is an incredible story with a veryhappy ending, but the journey there
(01:54):
Is as painful as it is fascinating.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow history,lovers, and seamstresses everywhere.
I give you Ruby Waller.
Hello.
Is that you, Mrs.
Waller?
Yes.
Oh, yes.
I'm very surprised that you can hearme sir, but , what is your name?
Madam, my name is Tony Dean, and itis a pleasure to speak with you today.
(02:16):
I'm actually calling you fromthe future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holdingin your hand right there,
it's called a smartphone.
And it allows us to speak as if we weresitting in the same room with one another.
It also allows me to share arecord of our conversation with
people around the world in my time.
And I was hoping that I could ask you somequestions today, but before I do, Bye.
(02:37):
Bye.
Understand this is a verystrange introduction.
Can I answer any questionsthat you may have first?
Oh, well, yes dear you, you may.
It's, I thought this was some sortof music box, with flashing lights.
It's it's quite small, but I'msurprised at how light it is.
But, can you hear me, my dear?
I actually can hear you very well.
(02:59):
, The reason that, , I wanted tomake contact with you through this
is because you've been involvedin some pretty extraordinary
things in your life, including, Iunderstand that you're acquainted
with a man named Charles Dickens.
Is that right?
That is correct Tony, if Imay address you that way.
And please, although it is not Informal for terms that we are meeting one
(03:23):
another, I think given the extraordinaryterms of our meeting, I would be
pleased if you were to call me Ruby.
Well, I actually appreciate that.
And yes, definitely do call me Tony.
I guess I would like to first askyou about your meeting , with Mr.
Dickens,
And if I got this right, basically.
Yeah.
The way you met him is you wereborn in this privileged life and
(03:46):
everything that you could ever want.
And of course you spent all this time withamazing writers and artists of your time.
And that's how you ended up with Mr.
Dickens.
Right.
Yeah.
misinformed.
Although I could not speakto what you know about Mr.
Dickens.
But for myself, I was not borninto privilege, as you call it.
(04:06):
I was born in a countryside, althoughI must say it was idyllic My, my
father was a tailor and we lived ina charming village called Seven Oak.
You might be interested to knowwhy it was called Seven Oaks.
It is fascinating, I shall tell you.
We had seven large oak trees boysused to play cricket there and such.
It was a very pleasant place.
(04:27):
But, sadly, it was not to last.
Although I loved my fatherdearly, he sadly died.
And my mother remarried a man who wasNowhere near the level of care and
comfort that only a true father can give.
In fact, the man was a monster.
And my mother died ofneglect and a broken heart.
(04:52):
And Mr.
Burning plucked me from thisidyllic, which I had always
known, and brought me to the greatBabylonian metropolis of London.
And if you have read any of Mr.
Dickens work, you know that isit is not so idyllic in that
large and often barbarous city.
(05:13):
And so he had the intention, although Iwas quite young, I had no idea what he
meant at the time, of finding me a newpa, a new, father, a new man to look
after me, and I thought, well that'squite odd, you are supposed to look after
me, and as a child I had no idea what hemeant, and I soon found out, I'm sorry
to say, that, and you will excuse me,this is a bit, this is a bit difficult
(05:37):
thinking back on this he brought me toa place close to what is known as Seven
Dials, which would be I suppose in yourNew York uh, equivocable to five points,
if you knew anything about that dreadful
I definitely do.
Then you have some semblance of where I'mgoing with this, but he He presented me to
(05:57):
this great hulking beast of a man who hadclothes that were as dirty as his teeth.
And I remember his face was coveredin grime, his hair was oily and he
had this great bulge in his cheek.
And when he smiled I realizedthat he had this ooze of chewing
tobacco coming out into his mouth.
And it was Absolutelyputrid and foul, and Mr.
(06:20):
Banning looked at him and then smiled downat me and said, He's your nopar, mind him.
And the man put coins in Banning's hand.
I'd never seen anything like itand I didn't want to go with him.
I said, no, I don't want to go with him.
And the man pulled me away and I bithis hand as, as ferociously as I could.
(06:40):
I was like a wild animal.
And he pulled back, took the money out ofBanning's hand and said, to hell with you,
I can find what I want in Seven Dials.
There's plenty of young cunt there.
And he walked away.
And Banning grabbed me, and walkedwith me, and of course I was shaking.
God, good lord, I'm shakingnow just thinking about it.
And he said, perhaps I shouldtake you to Seven Dials.
(07:04):
You're good for nothing.
I should leave you in a brothel.
And I asked him, in my naivete,I said, What's a brothel?
And he pulled me into an alleyway,and he said, It's where they do this.
And he put me up against a brick wall, Andum, I don't think you could the rest.
He raped me.
And I slid down the wallwhen he was finished.
(07:24):
I've never known such pain.
Ever.
And he walked away, and he said,Waller, that's your last name.
It's where you're goingto do your best work.
And he left me there.
So no, my childhood was not idyllic.
I do hope that answers your question.
I must pause for a moment, if youdon't mind, and get a drink of water.
No, please take
(07:44):
all the time you.
need., , what made your mom likeeven interested in a man like this?
, why was she interested in him at all?
How did they get married?
We have to understand that in my day inthis time that I live in and my god I pray
it's different in your time for the womenwho are using such devices as we are that
(08:05):
a woman must remarry when her husbanddies or she has no financial security
unless she's rich unless she has her ownindependent money which most women do not
unless you're considering a Coutts MissBurdett Coutts who I shall tell you about
it later if you don't, if you'd like,but she had to remarry, and at first Mr.
Banning seemed quite charming, as theyoften can, no offence to present company,
(08:29):
sir, but you men can be shifty,, andat first he was very attentive, very
gentle, very sweet, and then after allwas said and done, it happened gradually,
as abuse often does, doesn't it?
It started with critiquing whetherthe tea was hot enough, whether
her hair was as neat and tidyas it had been the day before.
(08:49):
Little things.
And it wore her down bit by bit.
And of course I was so young.
I knew something was wrong and Iknew my mummy was sad, but I didn't
understand what was happening.
? And by the time she died, All I couldthink of was how sad that my mummy was
dead, and how much I missed her, andof course it brought back the death
of my father all over again, and Idon't think I ever really said goodbye
(09:13):
to them the way that the way that oneshould if they have a healthy mind.
Your father was nothing like this.
Your father was a good man.
Is
Oh, of course not.
No, my father was the mostwonderful, loving, caring man.
He taught me to sew, which, if my lifehad been different, I would have gone into
that, in a respectable millinery perhaps.
(09:36):
But he oh, I wish everyonecould have a father like I did.
I wish you could have had him longer.
Oh, so do I.
I wish he was still with us, , andmy present husband, my only husband.
The love of my life Dr.
Wilkins, although we are onfirst names terms, aren't we?
So his name is Joe.
(09:57):
But I wish Joe could have met my father.
They would have gotten along.
They would have taken to each otherlike pitch, as the sailors say.
Oh, and I hadn't met a man as kind andas gentle as my father before I met Joe.
And I thank God for him every day.
In fact I think perhaps my fatherhad A little something to do with it.
(10:20):
Perhaps he put in a good word andasked the Lord to send a man like
Jo to take care of his little girl.
How long have you beenmarried to Joe now?
Oh, we've been married 21 years.
I met him when I was quite young.
Of course I'm not that old now.
I'm only 40.
They always
of years left.
Oh, thank you.
They always say, never ask awoman her age, so I thought
(10:40):
I'd just tell you anyway.
You know, you've had quite a rollercoaster in your life between this
wonderful father and this wonderfulhusband and the monster in between.
And , that's what I find so fascinatingabout your story is how you made
it through that terrible time.
I guess I'm wondering, like afterthat, that first incident on
(11:02):
the wall, which I appreciateyou, , being so open about that.
What happened next in your life?
Was that the last timethat you saw him or did
you continue to?
Oh, that was the last time you saw him.
Never saw him again, he left me.
And where he went, God only knows.
I pray he never hurt anotherchild, but he probably did.
I know not where he went after that.
But what happened was that and I lay therefor quite some time, you can understand.
(11:25):
I was in such pain, I was bleeding.
And I wanted to die.
I did.
And it's not the first time inmy life that I've wished that.
How old would you have been at that time?
I was about ten years old.
Just a little child.
So where does it, wheredoes a 10 year old go next?
I wish I knew.
I would have laid there forever anddied if it weren't for the a girl
(11:46):
who came up to me and I could smellher before I saw her because she was
a sort of street child I thought.
And I saw her and I looked up andshe wasn't, she was dressed in very
dirty clothes and she looked at meand she said, what are you crying for?
And I said, the man hurt me.
And she said, you want to live?
Come with me.
Or you can lay there.
(12:07):
And I got up, and it was difficultto walk, but I followed her a short
distance, and she took me to the house.
And I was afraid to sit down,and there was an older woman in
there who was not very kind to me.
And after a time, a man walked in.
Dressed in beautiful clothesand he introduced himself
(12:28):
with great kindness as Top.
That was his name.
He went by Top because of thisbeautiful top hat that he always wore.
And he said that he would take care of me.
And he picked me up likemy father used to do.
And he brought me to a room upstairs.
And he took care of my wounds and he putme in a bed and gave me some laudanum
(12:52):
and I fell asleep and I cannot explainit, but I instantly felt safe with him.
I did not know him from Adam,I'd never seen him, never met
him, but I felt safe with him.
Which was one of thegreatest mistakes of my life.
Because he saw me as Someoneto make money off of.
(13:15):
He cared for me, but there was a price.
And I became his, not onlyhis lover, but his employee.
He was my friend and my confidant andmy protector until I turned twelve.
And I do not know how it iswhere you are on the other end
of this fantastic machine, sir.
(13:36):
But here that is the age of consent.
And that was the night he tookme, and I became his lover.
So at 12 years old, can youget married at 12 years old?
yes.
Can a woman be a full timeprostitute at 12 years old?
Oh, twelve might beconsidered an old maid.
(13:58):
My dear sir, there are some childrenwho are broken in at the age of five.
Oh my goodness.
That is horrifying.
So from this point forward,he's looking at you as property.
You're an asset to his business.
Yes, and unfortunately for me,I also became his obsession.
But he lavished affectionand attention on me.
(14:20):
my, my bedroom, it was turned intosomething of a wonderland of swathing
fabrics and different textures and things.
And I've always enjoyed fashionbecause Father taught me to sew.
And so he, he gave me access to fashionmagazines and he would buy them for
me and he'd buy me fabric and I couldturn myself into these fantastical
(14:42):
characters with these costumes.
And of course the men loved it.
And many customers would come tovisit me and they would pay well.
And the reason that I never run away.
Because I was , a lot smarter by thistime about how the game was played.
But I didn't leave because Irealized, even though he was quite
(15:05):
mad, I realized how safe I was.
I wasn't in Seven Dials.
I was not on the street.
I was not hanging aroundthe docks every night.
I was warm.
I was safe.
I had food to eat.
All the attention I could crave,but I wasn't free, and I had to
suffer , all these men that he broughtin , for me to service, shall we say.
(15:27):
So I'd stayed.
so it's interesting that you went tothe question of why didn't you leave?
Because, , I could literally feel what theanswer was going to be to that based on
this picture that you're painting for me.
It's clear why you can't leave becauseyou're so young , what would you do?
It's not like you can go get another job.
You're not going to go starta business or something.
(15:48):
I'm.
I'm guessing that, like, there'snot a lot of people that are looking
for, , 10 or 11 year olds, , towork in their shop, even, maybe.
, there was literally no place togo because your parents are gone,
and the man that should have beentaking care of you just threw you
away like you were a piece of trash.
Yes, that's exactly what As far asjobs I've assumed that you're familiar
(16:12):
with you said you researched Mr.
Dickens and you're familiar withhis book A Christmas Carol, are you?
Yes.
Yes, well, do you know old Joe in thesweatshop when, in the, they bring in
the bed curtains and such and they'regoing to when the ghost of Christmas
future is showing old Scrooge thathis belongings are being sold off?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Do you remember that bit?
(16:33):
Well, the those sweatshops where the,we call them, you know, rag shops.
I think, what did he say?
Rags, bones, bottles andbits of greasy offal.
I like that bit from the book becauseI've seen it with my own eyes.
And Children often could work in thoseconditions as well, but of course it was
dirty, it's flea ridden and rats runningall about, and it's not hygienic or
(16:55):
safe at all and the children are quiteyoung there and they're not taken care
of, so there there were options but asyou can gather, not very glamorous ones.
So I stayed.
Where I was because I knew that.
I knew that although I was comfortablebut although I hated it, at the
same time, I was comfortable and I'dbetter just thank God for me blessings
(17:17):
such as they were, although I cursedhim for the situation I was in.
Didn't believe in him for a long time.
You can understand why, I'm sure.
definitely.
And I can see what you're saying exactly.
Because if you were to leave,you'd have the same awful.
It would just be worse.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, how long were you, how longwere you involved with Top?
(17:37):
How long was this, didthis arrangement last?
Well, I was his employer for about seven.
years, but I was in hishousehold for about nine.
And then I met Mr.
Dickens.
could
me about Mr.
Dickens.
What if you were to go to the police?
What would have happened then?
I, I suppose, I could have goneto the peelers as, as we call them
(18:00):
and they could have taken me away,but you see, I was a prostitute.
And they do one thing withprostitutes, they lock them up.
Well I could have gone on myown, or they would have sent me
to a place such as the Magdalene.
And the Magdalene is a place for girlssuch as myself to get off the street.
But they only keep you for one year.
(18:20):
And then they toss youback out on the street.
So it was jail, a place whereI wouldn't be safe, or death.
So I stayed where I was.
The
Jeez.
I have to guess that a lot of peoplewould probably do the same thing.
with no other options.
You'd be surprised how many chose OldFather Thames as their only way out.
(18:41):
When you are involved with Topp, andthere are other women, obviously,
that he would consider his employees,he would consider his employees.
What would the relationshipbe with you and those people?
Would it have been good?
, were your friends, were you competitors?
What did that look like?
In his particular household,he only kept me in his home.
(19:03):
When he would leave for days ata time, he might come back and
I would complain to him and say,you've not paid attention to me.
Because I realized that Icould pull his strings a bit,
and then he'd be nice to me.
And he would say, I'm sorry,I had pressing business I
had to attend to elsewhere.
And I realized, that's what it was.
(19:23):
He had a brothel that he was running.
But I never saw it.
I never went there.
And he never told me where it was, andI suppose that was to, , cover his own
ass, , to make sure that if I did runaway, or I went to the peelers, or I tried
to get help, that I wouldn't be able totell them where this place was, and that
(19:45):
was his his own protection for himself,because I had no idea where it was,
but I know damn well that's what he wasdoing, because he was doing it with me.
Yes I was his property and I was hisemployee, but he hand chose these men
to come see me because I was his best.
And he liked to keep me close, as he said.
(20:05):
And sometimes there weren't other menspending the night with me, it was him.
That's actually what Iwas just going to ask you.
Were you his most valuable employee?
Most certainly, yes.
I think he also considered mehis girl, which is disgusting,
but that's what he considered me.
And it's funny because I've talkedto other women who've been through
(20:27):
what I've been through and of course,, they'll say, , he never struck me.
He never hurt me physically,but I wasn't free.
And that, that, you're justas much of a victim then.
And that's what it was with Top.
He never hurt me physically.
He never forced me to do anything.
He charmed me into this, you see,because he was very manipulative.
(20:49):
The man was absolutely mad.
Did you feel like a slave?
I felt a slave of a kind.
Oh, of course, because I had to dothis, you know, for my own sustenance.
But it had been, Oh, I hate touse the phrase, but it's true.
I've been broken in at such a young age.
I'd forgotten what that idyllic childhoodwas like back in the countryside of Kent.
(21:13):
I'd forgotten it.
I'd washed it clean, the traumaof where my life was now.
I couldn't face any of that.
I couldn't face even consideringwhat my mother and father would
have thought of me, that I'dsunk so low to become this thing.
To become a piece ofmeat that men play with.
(21:33):
They didn't raise me that way.
That's never what they wanted for me.
And yet, they left me.
And I did what I had to.
Okay, so, tell me about Dickens.
So now you run into
Mr.
Dickens.
What ha wha what does that look like?
It was a night in the autumn of1847 and I was some distance from
(21:55):
where I was living at the time.
I was in in Suffolk, which is on theother side of the Thames and I liked to,
to walk at night sometimes and when Topwas away with his other business I would
sneak out and I'd go for walks and I'dlike to walk at night because I knew how
to take care of myself and It was darkand it was quiet and normally nobody
(22:17):
bothered me because I was just so small Ilooked like a little waif walking around.
And I was sitting on the stepsnear Suffolk Cathedral having
a, what they called a cigarette.
I don't even know if youall know what that is.
But Turkish cigarettes had just come intofashion and I was able to acquire some
through some of my gentleman clients.
(22:39):
And So I was sitting there, doing that,and what I realized, I could see a
small bit of light, and I realized itwas a lantern, and , the person who
was holding the lantern turned, andstarted walking towards me, and I
thought, oh God, , someone's found me.
But it wasn't a peeler, it wasn'ta policeman, I could tell by
(23:02):
the hat, it was a wide brimmed.
The man was shorter andhad a large coat on.
He didn't look, , very glamorous.
And he asked me, If he could sit downand I said he asked me what's your fare?
So he knew what I was and I said wellfor you handsome five shillings And he
laughed and he said you're very beautiful.
(23:22):
You should charge more and For somereason that I liked to twinkle in his
eye and I invited him to come sit downwith me and I thought I'll see who this
is and maybe I can get some money outof it Because you understand that's
where I was in my mind at the time.
What can I get out of it?
That's what you have to, that's what youhave to factor in when you're surviving.
(23:43):
It's always what you can getout of someone, because if you
don't do that, you're dead.
So he sat down next to me and , hewasn't a tall man, quite lean, and he
set his lantern down, and I got a goodlook at his face and he had a very
nice face handsome of a kind, a bitmore like a dandy with his clothing.
(24:03):
I wouldn't call him a tough, large, manlysailor or a miner or something like that.
But he was handsome and he hadbrilliant light eyes , blue eyes.
They looked as though there weretwo lamps lit behind them with
brilliant eyes and they were drinkingme in, but not in a lustful way.
And that's what confused me.
(24:24):
I thought, what's he on about?
What does he want?
He didn't look, he didn't look mad.
He didn't look like Top, you know.
He had, he seemed sensible.
But his waistcoat gave him away.
His vest.
Do you understand what I mean?
His vest.
I do, yeah.
we call it a waistcoat.
It was Paisley, beautiful swirlyPaisley pattern, it was velvet, and
(24:45):
he had, this is what really give itaway, a gold watch chain that was so
thick and so gregarious that I knewthe man had dosh in his pocket, I knew
he was, you know he was rich, eventhough he wasn't dressed in that way.
And started to tease him a little bitand I thought, Oh dear, you want to talk?
Oh, you having trouble with your girl?
(25:05):
And he laughed and he said, No, and ifmy wife could hear you, she'd laugh.
Apparently he didn't havetrouble with his girl.
And I started toying with his watchchain and bringing me fingers up
and down stroking the chain, youknow, stroking his chain as they say.
Oh Lord, I haven't talkedabout this in years.
But, oh, I had fun with him, I did.
(25:28):
And I could tell he was getting a bitflustered, I was getting under his skin.
And he asked me if I wouldgo for a walk with him.
He wanted to talk withme and that he'd pay me.
He'd pay my fare for my time.
And I thought, Well, I don't have to go tobed with him and he's willing to pay me.
It's getting cold out.
(25:49):
Why not?
So, I went with him.
And he said it was mychoice where we went.
And I said well, across the Thames inTottenham Court Road is the Rookery.
Marvellous gin palace.
And I was quite partialto gin in those days.
And he said, alright.
Are you up for a bit of a trudge?
And I said, of course.
And so we walked.
(26:09):
Lord, he was a fast walker.
And I was very fit for my age.
A little spry thing.
I had trouble keeping up with him.
Lord, that man could walk!
And we got there and we went in andwhen I'm with a client I like to search
some semblance of self sufficiencyand I had some coin in my pocket
and I insisted on buying , my own
(26:31):
and he, he was so taken aback, asof course most men are he said, To
have a woman by is positively absurd.
And I said, well, you let me byif you want my company tonight.
And that was the end of that.
These gin palaces are, Don't know ifyou have them, but they're brilliantly
lit with gas lamps and they're allcold guilt and glittering and full
(26:52):
of pipe smoke and song and more typesof gin than you can think about.
And back behind the bar, itjust is a huge wall of barrels,
of different types of gin.
And they say things like . Samson1421 and other types and that's
actually my favorite kind and that'swhat I ordered and outside there
(27:13):
was a little a cart where theywere selling , fried fish and such.
And so we, we got that and we sat downat a table and there was a woman singing
Cherry Ripe, which is a rather risquesong, you know, Cherry Ripe, coming by.
And He started asking me questionsabout my life and what I would do
if I had another chance at life,and then I started to panic and I
(27:36):
thought, this pretty little man mightbe a policeman, in plain clothes.
And I thought, oh God, that's all I need.
I'd rather die than go to jail.
And he assured me that he wasn't.
Just to be clear, this is Charles Dickens
We're talking about.
yes it is.
You're at the gin palace.
I'm
I mean, it
(27:56):
feel like I'm watching a movieand I'm wishing that I was in it.
And so you're sitting there drinkinggin, listening to this song.
With Charles Dickens.
And so what, and you guys startdrinking gin, I'm guessing.
yes, he he tucked in as well.
He had some of the friedfish and he had a gin.
Yes, I'm not sure what a movie is, but Ican tell you that it was quite a sight!
(28:18):
If there was some, someone who couldpaint it, I would pay them to do it.
It was brilliant!
Looking back, this is why I laughso hard now, along with you, because
it must have been quite a sight.
But you see, at
He has a very trusting wife.
I should, well I met her, I shouldtell you about her later if you
like girl that poor woman, but I didnot know who he was at this point.
(28:42):
He never told me his name, I nevertold him anything about me, really,
he knew me by , my business name,my nom de plume, you might say.
I went by the name Lilac.
Never used me real name.
Top insisted on that.
You see if anyone like Banning wastrying to find me, so I always went by
(29:02):
Lilac and I called Dickens the Dandy.
I said I don't care what your name is,but I'm up for anything you are up for.
I can cure whatever'sailing your sweetheart.
That's what I told him.
So I didn't know who he wasthe first few times that I met
him, I had no idea who he was.
It was only, I think, a second orthird time I met him that he finally
(29:24):
told me who he was and why he wasso interested in talking to me.
So,
interested in my services, so to speak.
That's really not what hewas interested in at all.
this had to be,, the best feeling,to finally meet a man that was
actually interested in you,
Yeah.
of what you could do.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, As confusing as it was refreshing,but I got bored with it after a while,
(29:49):
So the whole time you're walkingwith him and you see the gold
watch, are you thinking howmuch money you can get from him?
Are you also thinking,what can I steal from him?
Is there is that kind ofthe mentality as well?
Yeah.
My God, Tony, you would havefit right in with us then.
Yes, absolutely.
If you don't know, you must berelated to the Artful Dodger.
(30:11):
Yes yes.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
It's always what you can get.
And that watch chain was quite nice.
And I did get quite a few close ups of it.
Close views.
Other than that hisclothes were quite plain.
I couldn't have gotten anything for hisshoes but I did notice when we got into
the light of the Jin Palace that he had avery fetching ring on his little finger.
(30:32):
And he kept twisting it, actually,when he was talking to me.
The man was a great fidget.
He was always fidgeting.
And also, he had hair that wasalmost down to his shoulders.
It was a bit long, a bitI might call it bohemian.
And he had no whiskers, as well.
He was clean shaven.
And by that time, in the late40s, it was more of a fashion
(30:53):
for men to be growing whiskers.
And that also made me think,well, he is a bit odd.
But as good looking as he was and ascharming as he was I started to believe
that he wasn't interested in me in thenormal modus operandi that he really
was trying to talk about me with things,but it was why that I didn't know.
(31:14):
You understand.
So that's when I thought he might bea policeman and I got bored with him
because it wasn't going anywhere.
And I didn't want to talk about thestory of my life , I didn't want to be
interviewed even though he was paying me.
I was 17, I was young, I was foolish,and I was selfish and I didn't want that.
And Also to see whether or not hereally meant it, I started to make
(31:37):
the eye at someone who had noticed us.
He was at the bar.
And he was a great big fella.
And I could tell in his coat,he had this ivory carved pin.
It was hand carved, and it was in theshape of the front of a whale boat.
And it was called a chock pin.
And I knew because I'd serviced sailorsbefore, that pin meant that the man
(32:00):
was a harpooner on a whaling ship.
Which was quite a place of status,so he'd be quite respected, they
have to be very cunning and verystrong and quick to do what they do.
And he saw me and he looked at meas if he was ready to devour me and
I thought, well, let's test thisdandy and see if he really means it.
And the sailor came over to the tableand he held out his hand and Dickens
(32:25):
put his hand on my arm and he whisperedin my ear, he said, stay with me.
And I said, why?
And he said, well, you'll be safewith me, I want to talk to you more.
And I wish that I wish that I had believedhim, but in my years of abuse I Had been
led to believe that all men are liars.
And I left him.
(32:46):
I went with the harpoonier.
I turned around to Dickens andI said, You'd be better off with
a copy of Fanny Hill, darling.
And I walked away.
And it was one of thegreatest mistakes of my life.
What happened next?
Well, I went with this manand did what he paid me to do.
And I stole his walletwhen we was finished.
(33:06):
Because he underpaid me.
He didn't think I was worthwhat I had charged him.
It was very rude.
And I ran home, and through a seriesof circumstances I found myself back
out on the street, walking about.
And this was some time later, andhe'd found me, he'd been looking for
me, and he wanted his wallet back.
(33:27):
And there was a great strugglein an alleyway, another alleyway,
with a man who wanted to hurt me.
And he ran away.
I fought him off as best I could,even hitting him with the stave of a
barrel, hitting him over the head asmuch as I could, and even though he
was bleeding, it wasn't enough to knockhim down, and the same thing happened
(33:47):
that had happened all those years ago.
He raped me up against a brickwall, and he left me there.
So it was two men thathad done this to me.
And at that point I didn'twant to live anymore.
I could barely walk.
I was delirious.
And I just kept walking,and people pushing me out of
the way, they didn't care.
And I realized I was near the river, andthe best of my memory is that I fell in.
(34:12):
I think it just, in the hustleof the crowd, I think I just
lost me footing and I fell in.
And the next thing I knew I wokeup in, in a prison hospital.
It was awful.
Do you think that maybe you weretrying to end your life right there
i, I I don't remember.
It's all very jumbled in mymind, and it was so long ago.
(34:35):
I have not thought on itin a great period of years.
But I remember seeing the waterand being in so much pain.
I must have considered it.
I will own that.
I must have considered it.
But did I actually jump?
No.
But as I said, all of asudden the water was upon me.
And I knew nothing after thatuntil I opened my eyes in
(34:56):
a hospital bed in a prison.
And so did you seeDickens again after this?
Yes I did after I, I had a raging feverafter I was pulled out to the Thames.
And in fact, before we, we get totelling you about the prison I should
like to tell you when I I came toconsciousness briefly in the boat,
when they, these two boatmen had seenme fall in and they fished me out.
(35:20):
And I puked up, I, what must be abouthalf the Thames over the side of this
And that was another awful adventurebecause those two men their job was
to fish bodies out of the river.
Oh, jeez.
By the time they got to me, Tony, I thinkthey thought I was dead because I was,
I must have been just floating there.
(35:42):
I wasn't moving.
I didn't kick.
I didn't struggle.
I just was floating there,you know, face down.
You understand.
I could have drowned.
I would have died if they hadn't foundme and pulled me out when they did.
It was that close.
They laid me down in the boat and Iwoke up briefly and I realized I wasn't
in heaven because I wouldn't have beenin that much pain if I was in heaven.
(36:03):
And
Hopefully heaven doesn't look likean old moldy boat with some sailors
scooping up bodies at night either.
indeed, and hopefully itdoesn't smell that bad either.
And I realized that I waslying atop something very cold.
and unmoving and very hard.
And I reached my hand up tentativelyand every muscle in my body ached.
(36:26):
And I realized I was touching someone'scheek and it was sponge like and
I lift my head and it was a woman.
Her eyes were clear andunmoving and mouth was open.
I realized I was lying on top of a corpse.
Another, perhaps anothergirl just like me.
And she was dead.
And
you out of the river andthrew you on a pile of bodies.
(36:47):
was a pile of bodies, and I was stillalive, and one of the men in the boat
basically said she has to pay forher life as well, we've all got sins.
The other men in the boat said,I remember him saying, what's
one less whore in the world?
And the other one said to him, ohcome on, we can save one, can't we?
And we was close to Westminster Bridge.
(37:08):
And so they decided to make for theWestminster Steps, Tothfields Prison.
in, in Bridewell is, it's close to
well, it was past the Houses ofParliament in that area of London.
And it was, so it was the closestplace, and they took me there.
I'd passed out again from pain.
And then they brought me there, andI, briefly remember walking in, I was
(37:31):
on it, they were carrying me in and myhead was upward and I remember walking
past this great big door that had thislarge lion's head door knocker on it.
And it was the most frightening thingI'd ever seen . And I I woke up in bed
in the prison hospital in the infirmary.
(37:52):
And that is where I met my husband.
He was my doctor.
Your husband must be a good man to beable to look past your circumstances.
he'd never judged me, Tony.
Not for a minute.
He'd been a sailor himself.
And , because he lived the life hehad, he didn't judge, he understood,
of course he treated the very wealthy,he treated the very poor he also gave
(38:16):
of his time at a local workhouse to,to help treat the invalid and the ill
there, and those conditions there arethe god, they're practically prisons
themselves, so he didn't judge.
As a past sailor, you think maybe hehad some of his own sins to atone for?
Oh, of course he did.
Of course.
Gosh.
And, but his stories were marvelous.
(38:37):
And he told me about places such asPeru, which is, I believe on the West
Coast of your South Americas and all theplaces in the world that he had been.
And of course the women indifferent parts of the world.
And I asked him, I pressed him about that.
And of course he turned bright red.
And of course , I knowhe had sins of his own.
But I think that's why you are correct.
(38:59):
I think he, he did not judge me becausehe'd lived a bit of a wild life himself.
But it's very kind.
But he had to concentrateon saving my life at first.
, we weren't, , star crossedlovers from the beginning.
This was not Romeo and Juliet.
In fact, I couldn't stand him
Right.
There wasn't a big sloppy kiss
I did.
Oh heavens.
(39:20):
No, heavens.
No, I'd have kicked himin the head if he tried.
Okay.
So he's nursing you back to health in
prison now.
And being very tough as well.
Very tough.
I was, and I will admit to you,Tony, I was a rubbish patient.
I was absolutely disgraceful as a patient.
But I do have a sharp temper,in case you haven't noticed.
Um, and, And I would not obey.
(39:42):
And he'd say, trying to get me to take themedicine, and he'd tell the woman who was
assisting him, he'd say, , if we have to,you hold her down and I'll shove it in.
And I said to him, oh, familiarwords indeed, kind of you to
make me feel at home, doctor.
, and so I thought he wasjudging me, and he wasn't..
Because that's the goal ofa doctor is to do no harm.
(40:02):
And he was trying not to harm me, but I'msure I was driving him absolutely mad.
And the time he really holleredat me was after he'd stabilized
my life but I still couldn't walk.
And I from all the gin that I had beendrinking in my young life, I also had
come down with gout in my foot and itwas about three times the size as it was.
(40:24):
So my legs were wobbly anyway from havingbeen raped and having the fire of nearly
dying, you know, your limbs when you aredehydrated and you've been through it.
a terrible shock.
You know, they just scream with pain.
But I wanted to get up.
I didn't want to be there.
And I tried to get up andI fell flat on my ass.
And he walked in and he screamed at me.
(40:47):
Absolutely screamed at me.
And that is when I crumbled.
And he held me by my arms and I hithis chest with my fists and I said if
I'm such a, if I'm such a nuisance,why don't you just let me die?
Why don't you just let me die then?
And . I cried and he held me likehe was consoling a little girl
(41:09):
that had woken from a nightmare.
And in that moment I felt safe and itwas almost some people may consider this
to be quite strange, but I felt almostas if my father was holding me again.
It was that type of kindness.
, you know, Top's kindnesswas fake, but this was real.
Something about it, and I didn't trustit yet, because who, trust a man?
(41:32):
Safety?
What's that?
Nothing's safe.
Safety doesn't exist, love doesn't exist.
And yet, I felt safe with him and hepicked me up like I was a ragdoll.
He was a strong fella.
And he put me back in the bedand he covered me very tenderly.
, showing genuine concernfor a fellow human being.
And he leaned over me and hesaid, I'm sorry I yelled at
(41:54):
you, but I had to be certain.
And I said, certain of what?
You bastard, you know.
Between my tears, I'mstill hollering at him.
And he said, Well, I have tochange my diagnosis now, Ruby.
I said, to what?
And he said, you're gonna live.
Oh, wow.
got the fire, you've gotfire, you're gonna live.
(42:16):
And that was the moment we became friends.
I never yelled at him again.
And he called me uh, Puss.
Puss.
For obvious reasons that was my nicknamebeing the fact that I had been a
prostitute and and I called him Boots.
So we were Puss and Boots.
Oh,
(42:36):
So, I want to know what happenednext, but I'm curious how long
until the two of you got married.
oh yes we maintained a cordial friendship.
I mean, he was always respectful to me.
And some months after I was judgedto be healthy enough, when I
was fit enough, I was sent fromthe prison to Urania Cottage.
(43:01):
And , I found out that wasthe whole reason that Mr.
Dickinson wanted to talkto me in the first place.
He was going out.
And talking to girls like me andvisiting prisons talking to girls like
me to discern whether or not we weresuitable candidates for this brand
new experiment that he had designed.
(43:24):
So Dickens had a motiveand his motive was this
did you but did you say Urania cottage or
Cottage, cottage, as in a house.
Yes, Urania cottage.
And it was a, it was indeed a small house.
In Limegrove, in, in Shepherd'sBush on Golden Hawk Road, , I don't
(43:45):
know if you've been to London, butit's it's west of the more popular
places in London that that Mr.
Dickens made famous in his books.
But that's where it was.
It was a small house.
Not very grand at all.
In fact, when I finally saw it I wasa bit unnerved by the fact that it
had this very high wooden fence allaround it, and I thought, I've just
(44:07):
come from one prison to another.
He lied to me.
The bastard lied to me.
He said it wasn't a prison.
Why is this bloody highwall around the thing?
And we went in, and it was not an nota an impressive house, as I said, but
it looked very nice on the inside.
Nice bright paper, curtains,lots of different colours and
comfortable sofas and things.
(44:28):
But the, oh, and I should, Tony, beforeI, we actually go into the house, I would
like to take you back to the prison,to when Dickens came to talk to me.
Because I I've, I must tell youthat, otherwise it won't make sense.
And so he did come to the prison,and what I found out was that
Governor Tracy, who was the director,shall we say, of the prison.
(44:52):
A nice man, by the way.
I met him before I left.
And what Dickens had done is thathe'd gone round to all these prisons
and he'd given these letters thathe, the letter that he had written
himself and had printed, and hedistributed them to the governors
of all these prisons in the area.
And he told the governors that if a womancomes in who is in a certain situation
(45:15):
and you think would be a suitablecandidate for this for this project.
Give her the letter.
If she can't read, read it to her andthen gauge her reaction and tell me if
you think I should come and talk to her.
That's what he did.
And , Mr.
Tracy came in and he read me the letter.
Of course, I did know howto read, but he helped me.
(45:38):
And It said at the bottomit was signed a friend.
It wasn't signed Charles Dickens.
So still, I did not know there wasa connection between the letter
and this dandy that I had met.
By then he'd told me his name.
But because the letter said afriend, I didn't have a connection.
(45:58):
And so wasn't I gobsmacked whenDickens walked in to the infirmary.
and there he was that's when you
There he was.
And I, in my mind, Isaid, God damn, it's him.
That's when I realized this was themost famous writer in the world.
You could argue the most famousman in the world at that point,
(46:19):
other than Prince Albert.
Bless him.
But And then I got a goodlook at him this time.
We weren't in a gin palace,we weren't in a handsome cab,
going around London and arguing.
This is when I really gota good look at the man.
This legendary Author,this wizard of words.
And he had that, that same hairthat was all unkempt that he would
(46:42):
often comb through with his fingers.
As I said, he was a very fidgety man.
Those bright eyes, a smile,clean shaven, which, so he
stood out from most other men.
Lean, not to uh, Ditch a fat on him,lean fellow, very fit, of course,
with all that walking and, dareI say, making all those children.
He never had any spare time, buthe was never idle, and he came
(47:04):
in with the brightest smile anda loud, paisley waistcoat same,
Gorgeous, glorious watch chain.
A gold ring through his cravat, throughhis the piece of fabric around his neck.
Ruffly shirt and checked trousers thatlook that look a bit like a checkerboard.
That's why we call them checked trousers.
With a big black line downthe outside of each seam.
(47:27):
And brilliantly polished shoes.
And canary yellow gloves.
I mean, he was a sight.
Ruffly Nothing matched, and yeton him, it was a work of art.
Ruby.
I'm trying to figuresomething out right now.
Oh Why does the world's most famousman or most famous writer at the
(47:48):
time, why is he walking the streets?
Why does he care about this?
Why isn't he working on his next book?
How is this his job to save the criminalsand the prostitutes and go to the jails
and talk to all the governors of thejails and governor Tracy and all that?
Why does he care about all this?
ah, well you see when it comes to Mr.
Dickens, walking the streets and talkingto the downtrodden, and working on his
(48:12):
next book, one hand shakes the other.
That's exactly how he wrote his books.
He went out and he talked to people.
He met real people.
He talked to them.
He used them in his stories.
He used their names in his stories.
And it can be argued, and I canspeak from personal experience,
because he saved my life!
That night, he saved my life, he did,just by walking around, and yes, he
(48:36):
was researching for stories and Iwould say, if you look at Oliver Twist,
and poor Nancy, and the fate that,that befalls her, you look at the
prostitutes, the downtrodden women,the abused women in books, far after
Oliver Twist, such as in Little Dorrit,and David Copperfield, like poor
(48:56):
little Emily, She didn't die, did she?
She got a new life.
And where did she go?
Australia.
And you know where that come from?
Urania Cottage, because that's whathappened to us after we graduated.
We were sent to Australiato begin a new life.
Okay.
We got to talk about Urania.
We got
Oh, yes.
Yes, we need to.
(49:17):
okay, but you know, I got to tellyou as you're talking about this
and I asked the question why hespent time with prostitutes and
you explain that so clearly.
One of my favorite writers was talkingabout, , answering a question to somebody
who asked him, how do I become a writer?
And he basically told himgo experience something.
And That's exactly what Dickenswas . doing He was going to the
(49:38):
place that he normally wouldn't goso he could experience something
that he normally wouldn't experience.
He always had an eye for adventure.
He always wanted adventures.
He told me once that he had wantedto be an actor when he was young.
And and that he'd had, he evenhad an audition in Corbett Garden.
And that, day of his audition,he'd come down with a terrible
(49:59):
head cold and he couldn't go.
But he always wanted, so he missed hisaudition, poor thing, but he always
wanted to be an actor and he always was.
Always going to the theatre,it was always stories.
And before he became anovelist, he was a journalist.
So he was always asking questionsbecause you see, his genius,
he knew that, he's not the onlywriter that knew it, but the job.
(50:23):
The goal of a good writer is not to tella good story, it is to ask questions.
Because only in doing that do youget the answers, and then with
those answers you can make them see.
You can make your audience see withthe words that you're putting to paper.
And that was his genius.
If it was true in his head, itwas true in the rest of the world.
(50:45):
And that's why we love him.
How close were you tostealing that gold watch?
There was one night ismy husband close by?
I'm just looking.
Oh, no, he's in hispractice, so his door's shut.
Well, I should tell you I'll justturn my chair around and face
the fire so he can't hear me.
But there was one night beforeI, , before I was, I found myself
in the Thames and was in, in theprison where I met Joe, that Dickens
(51:08):
and I had gone back to the rookery.
And we'd had a, we'd knocked backquite a few gins, and I'd had it by
this point of who this dandy was,and why was he always picking me up,
and why was he always just talking.
As I said, I was an idiot.
I should have just been gratefulthat he didn't want to hurt me.
And after a few drinks,I straddled his lap.
(51:30):
And I kissed him full on, becausemind you, he wouldn't touch me.
I kissed him full on, and we wereforehead to forehead, and I basically
said to him, Stop pretending.
You think you're a littlegentleman, don't you?
You really think you can pull itoff, but secretly you'd love to
know what it's like to just runaway, and let go, and be one of us.
(51:51):
The story of Ruby Waller isa painful one to listen to.
And it's hard to imaginewhat would have happened.
Had she never run into CharlesDickens in this next episode,
she'll talk about Urania cottage.
And how these fallen womenmanaged to live together in
hopes of creating a better life
and now they occasionallyhad to push people out of the
house that wouldn't cooperate.
(52:12):
I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribednow, and we'll see you at the next
episode of the calling historypodcast with part two of Ruby Waller.
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