March 1, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast, host Matt McChlery interviews author James Poch about his book 'Holy Grit: Gaining Traction on Life's Journey with Jesus.' The conversation explores the definition and importance of discipleship, the role of walking with others, and the concept of grit in discipleship. They discuss roadblocks to discipleship and the mentoring relationship, highlighting the organic and individual nature of the process. Iman, a member of James' church, shares her discipleship experience and the evolving nature of her journey. They also discuss James' love of food and cooking as well as his photography hobby. Listen now.
Takeaways
- Discipleship is a lifelong journey of walking with Jesus and walking with others in God's church.
- Discipleship goes beyond attending church and acquiring knowledge about the Bible; it involves a deep and meaningful relationship with Jesus and others.
- Roadblocks to discipleship include unforgiveness, pride, disobedience, unanswered prayer, and condemnation.
- The mentoring relationship in discipleship is characterized by active listening, accountability, and mutual growth.
- Discipleship is for everyone, but it requires trust, patience, and a willingness to learn and grow.
Links
This episode was kindly sponsored by the fictional novel 'The Mantle' by Mark F. Hobson PhD.
Help keep this podcast on the web by simply buying me a coffee https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattmcchlery
Sponsor an episode of this podcast Click for Advertising info
Visit James Poch's website regen.church
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Chapters
00:00 Introduction 00:30 Discipleship Defined 03:21 Mutuality and Trust in Discipleship 04:18 Introduction to the Book 'Holy Grit' 05:46 The Illustration of Grit in Discipleship 06:44 The Uncomfortable and Determined Nature of Discipleship 09:02 Roadblocks to Discipleship 12:56 The Mentoring Relationship 18:46 Iman's Discipleship Experience 20:12 The Evolving Nature of Discipleship 21:56 The Role of Mentors 23:50 The Family Nature of Church 25:43 Lessons Learned and Doing Discipleship Differently 27:36 Individuality and Organic Discipleship 29:29 Getting to Know James Poch 31:20 Hobbies and Interests 35:34 Future Projects and Equipping Churches 42:12 Conclusion and Contact Information
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought toyou by author and songwriter Matt McChlery
Get a behind the scenes glimpse into thelives of some of your favourite Christian
authors, hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website,mattmcleary .com.
This episode is sponsored by The Mantle, afictional novel by Mark F.
(00:23):
Hobson, PhD.
Get your copy from drmarkhobson .com orfrom Amazon.
Well hello and welcome to the ChristianBook Blurb podcast where we like to
encourage you in your discipleship onebook at a time as we meet some amazing
Christian authors and learn about theirbooks, their lives and their faith.
(00:43):
I'm your host Matt McChlery and thanks forjoining me today and on today's show I am
going to be talking about discipleship isfor everyone and I'm going to be speaking
with the author James Poach.
as well as someone else who's featured inthe book, Iman.
So welcome to the show, James and Iman.
(01:04):
Nice to have you with us.
Thanks, Matt.
Really looking forward to our discussion.
Thank you for having me.
That's great to have you guys with us.
Let's begin first of all.
I know this podcast is billed as helpingChristians to grow in their discipleship,
but
I think a lot of people have differentdefinitions of what discipleship means to
(01:28):
them.
So let's just start off with that, James.
What is discipleship and why is itimportant for Christians?
Well, first and foremost, discipleship isa lifelong journey of walking with Jesus
and also included in that is walking withothers, which is, you know, God's church
(01:49):
here.
And, uh,
That's something that some people maythink, well, you know, discipleship is
turning up at church once a week or once amonth and, you know, you fill your head
with some knowledge about the Bible andthen that's, you know, that might be their
simple definition of what discipleship,but it is so much more.
(02:11):
And by reading the Bible, we canunderstand what it is that God is calling
us to do and to be as disciples.
Jesus, of course, He had His twelve
that he walked and journeyed with in thosethree years and that was absolutely
formational for them.
But they didn't stop there.
They didn't stop being disciples of Christwhen Jesus left.
(02:35):
That's when the real work began.
I really like what you said aboutdiscipleship.
Yes, it's about walking with Jesus, butit's also about walking with others.
And that's something that I've beenexploring and
learning more about this whole concept ofchurch and what is church.
(02:57):
And I think that walking with others issuch a key part to discipleship that we're
missing a huge big chunk of what it meansto be a Christian if we're trying to do on
our own.
What would you say to that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's such a mutuality in that, thatyou know one is down, the other one lifts
(03:19):
the other up and
We share stories of life and it can be areal deep and meaningful experience.
And I know we're going to unpack a bitmore of this as we go on through this, but
suffice to say that there's such apositivity about it that, you know, some,
(03:42):
maybe the word can scare people and justfor different reasons, perhaps.
experiences they've had in the past in achurch that has left them feeling a little
bit nervous about maybe sharing some oftheir stories and struggles with others.
But in a church we can find places of hopeand trust and obviously those things are
(04:12):
so important as we journey together.
There has to be trust.
Otherwise,
just won't work.
Yeah, yeah that's really good.
I asked you on to the show today because Ilove to interview Christian authors so
that must mean you've written a book andyour book is called Holy Grit, Gaining
(04:33):
Traction on Life's Journey with Jesus andI've read the book in preparation for this
podcast and I must say it's a reallyfantastic book and I did find it um...
really quite difficult to pick bits of itout to focus on for this interview because
(04:54):
obviously we can't cover everything that'sin the book.
There's so much good stuff in there.
I have tried to focus on a few littlesections to give the listeners a flavor of
what you're talking about but if you'reinterested in this topic, if you're
listening to this podcast and you'reinterested in what James is talking about
in terms of discipleship and what it isand how it works and what it looks like
(05:17):
and
how you can use it in your own churchcontext and equally what it is not.
Do check out his book, Holy Grit.
It's a really, really good book, reallygood.
So in your book, one of the things you do,and which is kind of what the title is
based on, is you use the image or theillustration of grit, of these like little
(05:42):
stones that kind of get put out.
on a slippery, wintery day to help you towalk along the pavement or to drive your
car along the road.
And you've used that image to helpdescribe discipleship.
So how does that work?
(06:03):
Yeah, well, Matt, interestingly, a coupleof weeks ago, I flew up to Scotland into a
blizzard and I had lots of opportunitiesfor walking on ice and snow and it just
kind of brought it.
back home to me again about this wholeidea of life and how it can be slippery on
the road that Jesus calls us to walk.
(06:27):
We live in a world that's fallen, that'sbroken, and so we need the grit of
discipleship, that discipline, the dyingto self.
As Jesus said in Matthew 16, 24, if any ofyou wants to be my follower, you must give
up your own way.
take up your cross and follow me.
Now, anyone who's lived will know there isthat element of suffering, of hardship, of
(06:58):
things that can really knock us and weneed traction.
I think it was important to put thatsubtitle.
in my book of gaining traction on life'sjourney with Jesus, we need that traction
and we can help one another on that aswell.
(07:19):
So, but first and foremost I would saythat that grit is dying to self in the
discipline of taking up our cross andfollowing Jesus.
And I liked it as well becausediscipleship at times and especially is
how you're talking about it in your book.
Um, it can get uncomfortable.
(07:41):
Um, you know, if, if, if you're challengedon something, um, you, you can kind of go,
Oh, Oh, you know, I don't like that.
Or, Oh, that, that sort of isuncomfortable.
Like, like the stone getting, getting inyour shoe, that that's kind of grit, but
also the whole idea of grit.
(08:01):
And I know in the UK, internationallisteners might not have this expression,
but.
But in the UK, we talk about having gritand determination and you kind of, you've
got to, you've got to kind of bite thebullet is another expression where you
kind of have to knuckle down and get onwith it.
Even if you're finding it tough.
(08:22):
And I think that's part of discipleship aswell.
You know, you've got to, you've got to,you know, even if it's uncomfortable, keep
going, be determined.
That's it, you know, and God's done hispart.
He's given us the Holy Spirit and we haveto do our part as well.
And it's just that kind of symbioticrelationship that we're giving to God all
(08:45):
that we have hopefully and in discipleshipand God gives us the power to live out the
life.
It's not always easy.
There are lots of obstacles and thingsthat can get in the way of that, but it's
just knowing that we're walking withJesus, we're walking with others.
and in that we can live a life ofdiscipleship that honors God.
(09:07):
Yeah, so much of discipleship that's beenmy experience is just coming back to God
every time, coming back to Jesus,following Him in the sense of for
everything when things are difficult, whenyou need that grid to keep going, taking
that back to Him.
So discipleship really is the dying to setoff, the going back to Jesus over and over
(09:29):
again and in that process,
others come alongside you and there's somuch that happens.
But I think the very important thing therethat James was saying is just that really
determining to follow God and to go to himwith life's troubles, with the slippery
slope and not expecting it to just kind ofbe done for you, but seeking him out in
(09:53):
that way.
That's really good.
Thank you.
So then what are some of the roadblocks todiscipleship?
Yeah, there's a lot of different thingsthat can get in the way of our
discipleship.
I'd say perhaps one of the biggest can beunforgiveness, can be a real blockage and
(10:14):
it's something that if we bring to God andwe're something that we're still
struggling with, perhaps just someunforgiveness towards someone who may have
really treated us badly, we may need to
just sit down, talk to someone else aboutthat and find hope and healing in just
(10:36):
turning that over to the Lord.
It can be pride.
I cover this in my book in my ownstubbornness when I was writing the
chapter on love.
Funnily enough, my son came in the houseand was asking where the keys were and I
was short with him.
(10:56):
And then what came back to my...
computer and started to write more aboutlove.
And I thought, oh, I cannot, I cannotwrite another word.
I need to go and apologize to Stephen, youknow, humble myself before him.
And, uh, so it's just like not lettingthese things get in the way of, you know,
(11:18):
I, I want to write well, I want to writehonestly.
And, and that's part of my discipleship.
And so I can't let pride get in the way.
disobedience, not listening to what God isasking us to do through the word.
Scripture is so important in how we liveour lives.
(11:40):
And if we disregard that, well, that'sgoing to be a tremendous roadblock.
Unanswered prayer, we can have so manydisappointments and lose hope.
And it's so important to have hope on thejourney.
Condemnation, I'm sure we've allexperienced that at some.
point in our lives where the devil justloves to come alongside and tell us you're
(12:03):
not, you're not, and just pull us down.
We need one another to build each otherup, you know, to say, come on, we can do
this.
We're in this to win this and in thisgreat race that God has called us to.
And so to put condemnation behind us andshame and all those things that just...
(12:28):
those roadblocks.
Yeah, I don't know any other word that'sbetter to describe that.
Yeah.
And in your book, you talk a lot aboutdiscipleship and being done together.
And I think a lot of those roadblocksyou've mentioned can, you can start to
overcome some of those by, by doing ittogether with someone you trust.
(12:49):
And so then you talk about this mentalrelationship that, that, that, um, your
church has a
adopted in bringing about, um, sort ofdeep discipling that goes on.
What does this look like?
How does it work?
Yeah.
Well, good question.
(13:10):
The thing that we really want to stressabout this is it's a very much an organic
thing.
It's not something that's put upon people.
We have lots of people who come to ourchurch who at the moment that they haven't
opted in to.
any kind of intentional discipleship as wewould, as I've outlined in the book.
(13:33):
And that's absolutely fine, you know, whenthey're ready, then they can approach one
of the leaders and just say, hey, look,I'd really like to go deeper and in
discipleship and take this on board.
So, and then, you know, I would sayprobably people...
(13:55):
come along to our church for at least acouple months before we'd even suggest it,
just because they need to know what kindof church we are, what we're believing,
what our vision and values are.
And that kind of takes time to build uptrust, and trust is so important.
And then people can, I think when peoplesay, well, look, I'd like to be held
(14:21):
accountable.
I'd like to have a mentor or a disciple orsomeone to...
help me out.
And so my first thing would be to say,well, is there someone in the church that
you feel that you could do this with?
So it's kind of putting that over to them,not assigning someone to them.
If they can't think of anyone, then we'dcome back and say, okay, well, perhaps try
(14:46):
this.
And it is very much a trial to give it atleast three months to.
work maybe to me every couple weeks oronce a month and see how that goes.
So it's very much according bespokeaccording to the person but within
obviously good guidelines andaccountability.
(15:07):
What's the role of the the mentor in thein that relationship?
Yeah I'd say first and foremost it'slistening.
Just listening to where someone's atreally knowing their story.
and what God might be saying in any givensituation, the things that they're
(15:28):
struggling with, the things to celebrateand to see built up.
So yeah, it's very much a listeningexercise, but also looking out for things
that perhaps the person may not noticeabout themselves or perhaps there's a
(15:48):
particular challenge that
They feel the Lord putting on their heartfor, for them to grow in their
discipleship.
So it, it can very much be like, well,high accountability, but low control.
There's, there's nothing about controllingpeople's lives in any way, but you know,
(16:08):
what are people wanting to see develop intheir lives?
And so it's starting from that naturalorganic place.
And as you mentioned there that thisintentional discipleship, um, you don't
confront people with it as soon as theywalk through the door, you give them time
and space.
So what, what would you say to, um,people, cause I've called this, this
(16:33):
episode discipleship is for everyone.
And I believe that if you're a Christian,it is, it is for everyone, um, eventually,
but there might be some listeners who arejust don't feel they're in that right kind
of place.
or in their walk with Jesus or in theirlives, maybe they'll have really negative
(16:55):
reactions if someone brings challengerather than positive ones.
Is this how you see it working or have Igot that right or what should those people
do in that situation?
Yeah, I think that I'd want to, I mean youdid say walking with Jesus and of course,
you know, that's discipleship first andforemost.
(17:17):
It's
the life with Christ.
And if someone is a bit reticent, just togo back to what we talked about earlier,
perhaps they have had an experience wherethey have been betrayed by someone.
I've heard this more often than I'd liketo.
People in a church who shared a confidenceand people have gossiped about them behind
(17:39):
their back and or perhaps not helped themat all and just left them to flounder.
And so I think that's
Such a shame and so there could be realtrust issues there.
We have to respect that and You know trustis earned.
It's not something that you just say trustme and expect people to do that so it is
(18:01):
journeying alongside of people and inprayer in love and Just being open to
questions and perhaps criticisms and thinkwell, you know as a church we don't feel
like
You know, we've got this all nailed downand we do it right all the time and there
are things that we can learn.
(18:22):
Sure.
We're on a journey.
We're all on a journey, the leaders,everyone in the congregation.
So there's things that we can learn how todo things better.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks, James.
I think it's time we bring Iman into theconversation.
Um, she's got a comment before we move onto her particular story about what we've
just been talking about.
(18:42):
So I'll, I'll let her comment on thatbefore we chat with her further.
Just to say as well on a very practicalnotes, what's been my experience has been
at the start of any mentoringrelationship, there's a very frank
conversation about what the mentee wantsout of that relationship.
What are you looking for?
So if you are someone who is stillstruggling to build trust, the whole point
(19:05):
of it is that it's very honest and frank.
So if you can honestly have thatconversation and say, look, I've been
burnt before and this is where I want tostart.
I want someone who will...
challenged me to read my Bible more or toput into practice what I'm learning or to
help me come out of my shell and connectwith other members of the church body
(19:26):
more.
You know, you can have those conversationsat the start.
It's not like we just start mentoring andimmediately it's like, these are all the
things you do wrong and you need to fixthose.
It's what do you want to gain out of thismentoring relationship?
It's a two way thing.
It's not just the mentor coming in.
telling you what your life should looklike at all.
In fact, there's none of that.
(19:47):
So just to say to anyone who might belistening, who thinks, oh, I'd love to do
something like this, but I'm too worriedabout what that would look like.
It's on your terms and that changes withtime as well.
So I will talk about this a bit more whenwe talk about me, but what my mentoring
started out as is not what it is now 16years on.
(20:08):
It's very, very different now and withlife changing as well.
from when I was a teenager to when I was ayoung adult to when I first got married.
Now being a mother, it looks different atevery stage.
So, and I imagine it will look differentin the future, but again, because you're
having an honest and open relationshipwith your mentor, you have that
(20:31):
conversations.
I disagree with my mentor sometimes, butthen we go, okay, well.
I don't agree, I don't quite see whatyou're saying, but I'm going to go back
and pray and ask God to either open myeyes or open your eyes.
One of us will change in this.
Usually it's me.
Usually it's me coming back.
And I guess the whole thing about this isthat both participants should be really...
(20:59):
good about keeping an ear open to what theHoly Spirit's saying and then following
the Holy Spirit's leading rather than, oh,I think this is a good idea or, oh, you
know, you should really sort that outbecause I think that's terrible or
whatever.
It's a lot more of saying, okay, God,let's together, you know, go on this
(21:21):
journey.
Yeah.
And just also on that note, I know there'sbeen times when a mentor has seen
something,
and actually felt the Holy Spirit said tonot say anything until I was ready.
And then I've brought that thing forwardand say, actually, I want to talk about
this thing.
And then you can kind of see the cyberrelief.
Oh my God, God has done the work.
We can talk about this now.
(21:42):
So mentoring isn't always immediatelycalling out everything you see that
actually the Holy Spirit might put a lidon things until the time is right, because
his timing is always perfect.
Great.
So Iman, as someone who has been inJames's church and
I mean, you've shared some of your storyin the book Holy Grit.
I just wanted to ask you what yourdiscipleship experience has been like.
(22:07):
For me, it's been very natural.
So when I joined the church, I was 16.
We'd just moved to the area and my momkind of took a leap of faith to get me to
church in the first place.
And I had this encounter with the HolySpirit and I was really excited about it.
being Christian, I thought, oh, this isgreat.
My life will now kind of just be fixed.
(22:29):
And then I realized, oh gosh, there wereloads of things I needed to come to terms
with in the way I was living.
Some of that stuff the Holy Spirit didnaturally.
I just started to choose to livedifferently.
Some things I would hear in the servicesand I would just say, oh, I need to put
this into practice and do, but because wehad Bible studies and we would hear
(22:50):
people's stories as we shared things, Inaturally wanted to learn more.
And so when it was first brought up, itstarted out more as a form of
accountability for me, because I thinkbeing an older teen, there were loads of
things that felt very high -pressured andI wanted someone to talk to more
regularly.
(23:11):
So it happened really naturally, thatprocess.
And then eventually I got a mentor,someone who could kind of come alongside
me, who was a bit more further along inthe faith and could see things a bit
differently.
I kind of, it was so natural that I didn'treally think of it as, I mean, I was a
(23:32):
little awkward at first because I was ateenager and I couldn't really express
myself very well, but it didn't feel likea heavy thing.
It felt like this extra support that I gotat church during that time.
And the main thing for me was learning howto live.
in the faith, because I just didn't haveany context for it.
(23:53):
My understanding of it was very different.
So that's how it started.
And as it kind of evolved, I then startedto see it more as something really
important to help me unpack things that Iwas learning for myself and say, okay,
this is what I'm seeing in the Bible.
This is what I kind of want to do, but Idon't really know how to get there.
(24:14):
Can you pray with me?
Can we look at this and work through ittogether?
And then somewhere along the line,
I then got the opportunity to mentorothers as well.
Other younger women who were coming intothe church and, and, yeah.
I was going to ask that if you've been onboth sides.
Yeah.
In fact, I think becoming a mentor alsotaught me so much about being a mentee and
(24:36):
so much about my own faith.
You learn so much from the person you'rementoring as well and the way that they
approach things.
And, and also God does a brilliant thingthat actually, as you work on yourself,
There's certain things that you're thenable to see a bit clearer that you
wouldn't have been able to see before.
You can then share from your livedexperience that it's not like, oh, you
(24:57):
know, nice thoughts.
It's like, no, this is what I've seen Goddo in my life.
Now it might not look exactly the same inyour life, but I know that it is possible
for God to do this.
And so we can bring this to God andthere's a confidence that comes with that.
And so it's been quite, yeah, it's been...
a natural and evolving process throughout.
And it's still that way.
(25:18):
I still have a mentor and I also mentor atthe same time.
And through the journey, have or is thereanything that you would have done
differently?
Yeah, I think particularly because Istarted out quite young, I think it was
especially difficult for me to expressmyself quite well, or by I had a few life
controlling issues at the time too.
(25:39):
But the main thing that
I wish I'd understood is the family natureof church.
It took me a very long time to understandthe church being a body, a people, and not
a building, because I was so fiercelyindependent, and I still struggle to not
(26:00):
be now, and to kind of think, okay, like,I'm here and I want to serve the church
and everything, but it's kind of, andthat's separate from the church being part
of my life.
And more and more I've
gotten to appreciate how, why we havechurch as it is, that it's such a needed
relationship.
You, so much of the character developmentI've had in my life hasn't been from some
(26:25):
grand revelation by myself in my room.
There've been amazing moments, you know,reading Bible by myself, but actually it's
being close with someone else in thechurch and then either something is said
or...
Um, somebody comes up in the relationshipand I go, Ooh, why does that feel a
particular way?
And that's what I then take to God thatreveals something in me that we need each
(26:45):
other because actually you think you're avery patient person and you asking God to
give you more patience until you're throwninto a relationship with people.
And then you realize that, Oh no, I don'thave as much patience as I need.
I thought I had, I, I wish I'd known myneed for people sooner.
I think my life would look a bitdifferently, but I.
(27:06):
I am also grateful that I got hereeventually.
Well, thank you so much, Iman, for sharingyour story.
James, just having heard that from Iman,is this a typical picture of what you see
in your church as people go through thisdiscipleship, mentorship kind of
relationship or is every one different?
(27:28):
Yes, I think it's a learning experienceand of course, each one of us being
different.
I think that that's why I keep coming backto that word organic that of course, you
know, there'll be guidelines aroundsafeguarding and looking after people and
(27:49):
all of those things that we really do needthose.
And I go into a lot more detail about thatin the book.
Yeah, just building a space safe, a safespace where people can.
feel free to open up.
And of course that takes time, time.
(28:10):
And it is a lifelong investment.
So we have to give it time and ourefforts, our best efforts.
So in the individuality of every person,we respect that and realize some people
are gonna like really move quickly throughthe things that they're challenged on,
(28:32):
others more.
slow and I think I'm sometimes one ofthose slow people.
The Lord has to keep bringing things backto me.
I think perhaps my sometimes stubbornnature but I have people that are really
patient with me and pray for me.
Wonderful congregation and that I shouldalso add that I lead with my wife Ruth and
(28:58):
she's a real help to me coming alongsideand so...
It's very much one of those things that werespect the rights, the full rights of the
person, see them as someone who's createdin the image of God and that we need to
respect and nurture and love.
And Jesus certainly is the great shepherdand as leaders we are to shepherd his
(29:23):
people, the flock under his care.
That's great James, thank you.
do check out James Poach's book, HolyGrit, Gaining Traction on Life's Journey
with Jesus.
We're just about to have a short littlebreak now, but we will be back and we will
find out a little bit more about James'slife after these.
(29:46):
The Mantle by Mark F.
Hobson, PhD is a fictional novel about thecloth that covered Jesus's head in the
tomb known as the mantle.
What is the secret history of the sacredobject?
What miracles might unfold?
And who possesses it now?
Packed full of intrigue and adventure, themantle intertwines both past and present
(30:10):
in a gripping supernatural tale.
Every moment is a divine revelation.
Get your copy of The Mantle by Mark F.
Hobson today from DrMarkHobson .com orfrom Amazon.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast,you can help keep it on the web.
(30:30):
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
Head over to buymeacoffee .com slash MattMcChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's shownotes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and helpthis podcast to keep supporting Christian
books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian BookBlurb podcast.
(30:53):
I'm your host, Matt McChlery.
Thanks for staying with us.
I am being talking with the author, JamesPoach, about his book, Holy Grit, just
before the break.
And we are just going to find out a littlebit about who James is.
We like to peel back the dust jacket ofthe book and find out a little bit more
about our author's life.
(31:15):
So, James, what do you do for fun?
Right, yes, well,
I certainly love to get out in nature.
I find that I'm really able to connectwith God when I have time and space and to
pray and to see all the beautiful thingsthat He's created all around us.
And that leads me into photography.
(31:36):
I do love taking pictures and usually it'skind of out of the corner of my eye.
I see something and it's kind of like,hey, I'm over here, take my picture.
So, you know, as I mentioned, being up inScotland, just seeing the beauty of God's
creation and everything blanketed in snowand the sun coming out, it's just
(31:57):
beautiful.
So I'm waxing lyrically here.
So you could tell that's a little bit of apassion, just being out in nature and I
enjoy cooking.
I love to.
I love to eat.
So naturally it just flows into the whole.
your favorite kind of food to eat?
Yeah, I do love Mexican food.
(32:19):
I think it was, yeah, I'm American.
So I was kind of born and raised inPennsylvania primarily.
And, uh, but then moved to the South.
So there's a considerable amount ofMexican food there.
So I really discovered that came to lovethat.
So I cook a bit of that.
and enjoy eating that and sharing it withothers.
(32:42):
I love making queso as Eman will attest.
So, uh, it's so good.
I was this close to requesting it as abirthday present and realized that's a bit
odd to call up your pastor and go, can youplease give me queso for my birthday?
Oh, Eman, you missed out.
(33:02):
I you're awake.
I probably would have.
Oh, that's brilliant.
So we're ready to find out your favoritefood.
Do you have any other favorite things thatyou like to do or watch?
Do you watch much television?
Well, I would perhaps have said that yearsago, but I find more and more just other
(33:25):
things.
I think reading lately has becomesomething that's more to the fore.
So I like reading just all kinds of...
different books that inspire andencourage.
Is there a particular book that you wouldrecommend to our listeners today?
(33:46):
I know I'm putting you on the spot.
Well, I think there's one written by DavidWatson, an Anglican vicar who was based up
in York.
And I only happened to read his book ondiscipleship after I had written Holy
Grit.
And I wish that I had read it before, butthe thing that really struck me was those
(34:12):
key things about discipleship aretimeless.
And there were a couple of good quotes inthere.
I thought, gosh, I wish I'd had this in,but because I have revised and updated the
book and added in new testimonies in thissecond edition, I put those in because
they were too good not to go in.
(34:35):
So I would, I would highly recommendDavid's book.
It's, um, it's a wonderful, wonderful, uh,book all about discipleship too.
Wonderful.
Thanks.
Have you got any family, James?
I know you've mentioned the son earlieron.
Yes.
Yeah.
We got my wife and I have four sons allgrown in their thirties and we have seven
(34:57):
grandchildren.
Oh, that's cute.
You busy are all.
Yes, absolutely.
They all live within.
like four miles of us and they all attendour church which is absolutely wonderful.
It's such a blessing to have them allaround.
So yeah, very proud of them all.
Have you got anything that you're workingon at the moment?
(35:20):
Anything that you can give us like a sneakpeek into?
It might be another book or it could besome other program or something that's
kind of bubbling away in the background atthe moment.
Right.
I'd say first and foremost it's like thisbook and how to help others to grapple
(35:44):
with this, not just in the church becauserecently we've done a whole series on the
book around the key elements that come outof it.
So we had different people leading thoseand we also introduced some of the people.
that share their stories, theirtestimonies in the book so that it kind of
(36:06):
helps it come alive because that's ofcourse something I wanted to do when I
wrote the book.
It's like, okay, you can have the generalidea of what discipleship is, but what
does it look like in the 21st century?
And here's some people that can tell youhow they have grappled with that and how
it has changed their lives in this walkwith Jesus and others.
(36:29):
So,
from time to time people say, oh, I wishwe had this in our church.
And, you know, it's about talking withpeople, like, what would that look like in
your context?
And either with leaders or with peoplethat are members of a church where perhaps
they don't have any particular focus ondiscipleship.
(36:49):
How can we help them to do that?
Now, recently I was asked to...
write an article for a magazine of aChristian radio station.
And I thought that was really interestingbecause, you know, Matt, years ago, I
didn't have confidence in writing.
(37:10):
And I had this really weird fear that Iwould be asked to write an article for a
magazine and I wouldn't be able to do it.
You know, we all have these kind of weirdthings.
And I really felt like the Lord said tome, well, James, has anyone asked you?
to write an article for ChristianMagazine.
And I was like, no.
(37:32):
He's like, well then, what are you worriedabout?
And ironically, that's what I'm doing now.
And I think, well, the Lord has put thatbefore me and I wanna honor that.
And it's just a little bit about what Icover in the book about love and how it's
so important and key to discipleship.
(37:55):
So that's one.
Have you got any idea what this will looklike?
Not the magazine article, but your ideaabout how to equip other churches to
implement a discipleship program likethis.
Is it going to be like another book or isit going to be, I don't know, like a
(38:17):
sermon series?
Was it going to be like a conference or,you know, what format or shape is that
going to take?
Or is it still really early days?
Are we not at that point yet?
Yeah, I'd say that it's early days, but Ifeel that it will be important to have
conversation with church leaders becausein every church there's a glass ceiling
(38:38):
and that is the leadership.
And you know, you can have people incongregations, they're wanting to, we can
see this from time to time in different,I'm sure all of us have, where there are
members of a congregation, they're reallyexcited and wanting to go ahead with a
particular project or vision.
And the leader is,
maybe reticent or feeling it's not time.
(39:00):
And so the leadership will hold the churchin a certain way.
And if God is challenging a church indiscipleship, then we really need to say,
hey, leaders, you know, how's it going?
And, you know, what would it look like inyour context?
Because we're not saying, oh, the way thatwe do it is the only way to do
(39:22):
discipleship and mentoring.
and all of that.
But let's have a conversation around that.
Well, I know that I for one would bereally interested in something like that
for my church.
Now for my listeners, I did tell James atthe beginning that I loved his book, Holy
Grit, so much that I didn't want to giveit away.
And that's true.
(39:43):
I don't.
I want to keep this.
I think it's a valuable book for mybookshelf, but it's so good that I think I
have to give it away as well.
So I will be giving away a copy of JamesPoacher's book Holy Grit that you can get
on my newsletter.
So head over to mattmclarry .com and signup to my newsletter and in a few months
(40:04):
time I'll be giving away this book HolyGrit and I'll actually have to go and buy
another copy for my bookshelf.
So there you go that that's how good Ithink this book really is.
So thank you James.
Before we go...
Um, where can people find you on socialmedia or online or podcasts or whatever?
Um, how can people get in touch or infact, buy the book?
(40:27):
Yes.
Um, well, first and foremost, everythingis kind of concentrated at our website,
which is regen .church.
There's no .com or anything.
It's just regen, R E G E N dot church.
As for social media, about three yearsago, yeah, three years ago in Lent, I gave
up.
social media and you know what happened?
(40:49):
I never came back to it.
It was just one of those things.
I felt like well what we're doing as achurch we can just put it all there.
So there's as I mentioned the series thatwe have that you can find the links on the
website.
The podcasts of the church can be found onall the different platforms Spotify,
(41:12):
Apple, Google, whatever.
So you can find
find us there.
And as for buying the book, Amazon, youcan buy it on Kindle and there are like
other bookshop chains, your localChristian bookshop could source it for
you, Waterstones.
So there's just a lot of different ways toaccess it.
(41:34):
If you search for Holy Grit, James Poach,it'll, it shall appear.
And also just a shout out to InstantApostle.
for taking on the project for me andallowing me to publish with them.
Appreciate them.
Yeah, they're a really great publisher.
Yeah, they've published one of mine aswell.
So I would agree with you.
They are fantastic to work with.
(41:56):
So just for the benefit of the listeners,I will be putting in the show notes of
this episode, a link to that website thatJames has just mentioned, Regen .church.
So all you have to do is go to the shownotes, click on that, and it'll take you
to where you want to be.
Thank you so much for joining us today,James and Iman.
It's been fantastic chatting with you.
(42:19):
Thank you, Matt.
Wonderful opportunity to share with you.
You're brilliant.
Thank you so much.
Thank you to this episode's sponsor, thenovel called The Mantle by Mark F.
Hobson, PhD.
Do have a look at his website,drmarkhobson .com and grab yourself a copy
of that book.
And thank you as well for having a listento this podcast.
(42:41):
Don't forget that the Christian Book Blurbcomes out twice a month on the 1st and the
15th.
So I do look forward to seeing you andhaving the pleasure of your company once
again, really soon, where I'll be talkingwith another Christian author about their
books, their life and their faith.
Thanks for listening.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian BookBlurb with your host, Matt McChlery.
(43:05):
Do give it a like, give it a share and letyour friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon onanother Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought toyou by author and songwriter Matt McChlery
Get a behind the scenes glimpse into thelives of some of your favourite Christian
authors, hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website,mattmcleary .com.
This episode is sponsored by The Mantle, afictional novel by Mark F.
(00:23):
Hobson, PhD.
Get your copy from drmarkhobson .com orfrom Amazon.
Well hello and welcome to the ChristianBook Blurb podcast where we like to
encourage you in your discipleship onebook at a time as we meet some amazing
Christian authors and learn about theirbooks, their lives and their faith.
(00:43):
I'm your host Matt McChlery and thanks forjoining me today and on today's show I am
going to be talking about discipleship isfor everyone and I'm going to be speaking
with the author James Poach.
as well as someone else who's featured inthe book, Iman.
So welcome to the show, James and Iman.
(01:04):
Nice to have you with us.
Thanks, Matt.
Really looking forward to our discussion.
Thank you for having me.
That's great to have you guys with us.
Let's begin first of all.
I know this podcast is billed as helpingChristians to grow in their discipleship,
but
I think a lot of people have differentdefinitions of what discipleship means to
(01:28):
them.
So let's just start off with that, James.
What is discipleship and why is itimportant for Christians?
Well, first and foremost, discipleship isa lifelong journey of walking with Jesus
and also included in that is walking withothers, which is, you know, God's church
(01:49):
here.
And, uh,
That's something that some people maythink, well, you know, discipleship is
turning up at church once a week or once amonth and, you know, you fill your head
with some knowledge about the Bible andthen that's, you know, that might be their
simple definition of what discipleship,but it is so much more.
(02:11):
And by reading the Bible, we canunderstand what it is that God is calling
us to do and to be as disciples.
Jesus, of course, He had His twelve
that he walked and journeyed with in thosethree years and that was absolutely
formational for them.
But they didn't stop there.
They didn't stop being disciples of Christwhen Jesus left.
(02:35):
That's when the real work began.
I really like what you said aboutdiscipleship.
Yes, it's about walking with Jesus, butit's also about walking with others.
And that's something that I've beenexploring and
learning more about this whole concept ofchurch and what is church.
(02:57):
And I think that walking with others issuch a key part to discipleship that we're
missing a huge big chunk of what it meansto be a Christian if we're trying to do on
our own.
What would you say to that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's such a mutuality in that, thatyou know one is down, the other one lifts
(03:19):
the other up and
We share stories of life and it can be areal deep and meaningful experience.
And I know we're going to unpack a bitmore of this as we go on through this, but
suffice to say that there's such apositivity about it that, you know, some,
(03:42):
maybe the word can scare people and justfor different reasons, perhaps.
experiences they've had in the past in achurch that has left them feeling a little
bit nervous about maybe sharing some oftheir stories and struggles with others.
But in a church we can find places of hopeand trust and obviously those things are
(04:12):
so important as we journey together.
There has to be trust.
Otherwise,
just won't work.
Yeah, yeah that's really good.
I asked you on to the show today because Ilove to interview Christian authors so
that must mean you've written a book andyour book is called Holy Grit, Gaining
(04:33):
Traction on Life's Journey with Jesus andI've read the book in preparation for this
podcast and I must say it's a reallyfantastic book and I did find it um...
really quite difficult to pick bits of itout to focus on for this interview because
(04:54):
obviously we can't cover everything that'sin the book.
There's so much good stuff in there.
I have tried to focus on a few littlesections to give the listeners a flavor of
what you're talking about but if you'reinterested in this topic, if you're
listening to this podcast and you'reinterested in what James is talking about
in terms of discipleship and what it isand how it works and what it looks like
(05:17):
and
how you can use it in your own churchcontext and equally what it is not.
Do check out his book, Holy Grit.
It's a really, really good book, reallygood.
So in your book, one of the things you do,and which is kind of what the title is
based on, is you use the image or theillustration of grit, of these like little
(05:42):
stones that kind of get put out.
on a slippery, wintery day to help you towalk along the pavement or to drive your
car along the road.
And you've used that image to helpdescribe discipleship.
So how does that work?
(06:03):
Yeah, well, Matt, interestingly, a coupleof weeks ago, I flew up to Scotland into a
blizzard and I had lots of opportunitiesfor walking on ice and snow and it just
kind of brought it.
back home to me again about this wholeidea of life and how it can be slippery on
the road that Jesus calls us to walk.
(06:27):
We live in a world that's fallen, that'sbroken, and so we need the grit of
discipleship, that discipline, the dyingto self.
As Jesus said in Matthew 16, 24, if any ofyou wants to be my follower, you must give
up your own way.
take up your cross and follow me.
Now, anyone who's lived will know there isthat element of suffering, of hardship, of
(06:58):
things that can really knock us and weneed traction.
I think it was important to put thatsubtitle.
in my book of gaining traction on life'sjourney with Jesus, we need that traction
and we can help one another on that aswell.
(07:19):
So, but first and foremost I would saythat that grit is dying to self in the
discipline of taking up our cross andfollowing Jesus.
And I liked it as well becausediscipleship at times and especially is
how you're talking about it in your book.
Um, it can get uncomfortable.
(07:41):
Um, you know, if, if, if you're challengedon something, um, you, you can kind of go,
Oh, Oh, you know, I don't like that.
Or, Oh, that, that sort of isuncomfortable.
Like, like the stone getting, getting inyour shoe, that that's kind of grit, but
also the whole idea of grit.
(08:01):
And I know in the UK, internationallisteners might not have this expression,
but.
But in the UK, we talk about having gritand determination and you kind of, you've
got to, you've got to kind of bite thebullet is another expression where you
kind of have to knuckle down and get onwith it.
Even if you're finding it tough.
(08:22):
And I think that's part of discipleship aswell.
You know, you've got to, you've got to,you know, even if it's uncomfortable, keep
going, be determined.
That's it, you know, and God's done hispart.
He's given us the Holy Spirit and we haveto do our part as well.
And it's just that kind of symbioticrelationship that we're giving to God all
(08:45):
that we have hopefully and in discipleshipand God gives us the power to live out the
life.
It's not always easy.
There are lots of obstacles and thingsthat can get in the way of that, but it's
just knowing that we're walking withJesus, we're walking with others.
and in that we can live a life ofdiscipleship that honors God.
(09:07):
Yeah, so much of discipleship that's beenmy experience is just coming back to God
every time, coming back to Jesus,following Him in the sense of for
everything when things are difficult, whenyou need that grid to keep going, taking
that back to Him.
So discipleship really is the dying to setoff, the going back to Jesus over and over
(09:29):
again and in that process,
others come alongside you and there's somuch that happens.
But I think the very important thing therethat James was saying is just that really
determining to follow God and to go to himwith life's troubles, with the slippery
slope and not expecting it to just kind ofbe done for you, but seeking him out in
(09:53):
that way.
That's really good.
Thank you.
So then what are some of the roadblocks todiscipleship?
Yeah, there's a lot of different thingsthat can get in the way of our
discipleship.
I'd say perhaps one of the biggest can beunforgiveness, can be a real blockage and
(10:14):
it's something that if we bring to God andwe're something that we're still
struggling with, perhaps just someunforgiveness towards someone who may have
really treated us badly, we may need to
just sit down, talk to someone else aboutthat and find hope and healing in just
(10:36):
turning that over to the Lord.
It can be pride.
I cover this in my book in my ownstubbornness when I was writing the
chapter on love.
Funnily enough, my son came in the houseand was asking where the keys were and I
was short with him.
(10:56):
And then what came back to my...
computer and started to write more aboutlove.
And I thought, oh, I cannot, I cannotwrite another word.
I need to go and apologize to Stephen, youknow, humble myself before him.
And, uh, so it's just like not lettingthese things get in the way of, you know,
(11:18):
I, I want to write well, I want to writehonestly.
And, and that's part of my discipleship.
And so I can't let pride get in the way.
disobedience, not listening to what God isasking us to do through the word.
Scripture is so important in how we liveour lives.
(11:40):
And if we disregard that, well, that'sgoing to be a tremendous roadblock.
Unanswered prayer, we can have so manydisappointments and lose hope.
And it's so important to have hope on thejourney.
Condemnation, I'm sure we've allexperienced that at some.
point in our lives where the devil justloves to come alongside and tell us you're
(12:03):
not, you're not, and just pull us down.
We need one another to build each otherup, you know, to say, come on, we can do
this.
We're in this to win this and in thisgreat race that God has called us to.
And so to put condemnation behind us andshame and all those things that just...
(12:28):
those roadblocks.
Yeah, I don't know any other word that'sbetter to describe that.
Yeah.
And in your book, you talk a lot aboutdiscipleship and being done together.
And I think a lot of those roadblocksyou've mentioned can, you can start to
overcome some of those by, by doing ittogether with someone you trust.
(12:49):
And so then you talk about this mentalrelationship that, that, that, um, your
church has a
adopted in bringing about, um, sort ofdeep discipling that goes on.
What does this look like?
How does it work?
Yeah.
Well, good question.
(13:10):
The thing that we really want to stressabout this is it's a very much an organic
thing.
It's not something that's put upon people.
We have lots of people who come to ourchurch who at the moment that they haven't
opted in to.
any kind of intentional discipleship as wewould, as I've outlined in the book.
(13:33):
And that's absolutely fine, you know, whenthey're ready, then they can approach one
of the leaders and just say, hey, look,I'd really like to go deeper and in
discipleship and take this on board.
So, and then, you know, I would sayprobably people...
(13:55):
come along to our church for at least acouple months before we'd even suggest it,
just because they need to know what kindof church we are, what we're believing,
what our vision and values are.
And that kind of takes time to build uptrust, and trust is so important.
And then people can, I think when peoplesay, well, look, I'd like to be held
(14:21):
accountable.
I'd like to have a mentor or a disciple orsomeone to...
help me out.
And so my first thing would be to say,well, is there someone in the church that
you feel that you could do this with?
So it's kind of putting that over to them,not assigning someone to them.
If they can't think of anyone, then we'dcome back and say, okay, well, perhaps try
(14:46):
this.
And it is very much a trial to give it atleast three months to.
work maybe to me every couple weeks oronce a month and see how that goes.
So it's very much according bespokeaccording to the person but within
obviously good guidelines andaccountability.
(15:07):
What's the role of the the mentor in thein that relationship?
Yeah I'd say first and foremost it'slistening.
Just listening to where someone's atreally knowing their story.
and what God might be saying in any givensituation, the things that they're
(15:28):
struggling with, the things to celebrateand to see built up.
So yeah, it's very much a listeningexercise, but also looking out for things
that perhaps the person may not noticeabout themselves or perhaps there's a
(15:48):
particular challenge that
They feel the Lord putting on their heartfor, for them to grow in their
discipleship.
So it, it can very much be like, well,high accountability, but low control.
There's, there's nothing about controllingpeople's lives in any way, but you know,
(16:08):
what are people wanting to see develop intheir lives?
And so it's starting from that naturalorganic place.
And as you mentioned there that thisintentional discipleship, um, you don't
confront people with it as soon as theywalk through the door, you give them time
and space.
So what, what would you say to, um,people, cause I've called this, this
(16:33):
episode discipleship is for everyone.
And I believe that if you're a Christian,it is, it is for everyone, um, eventually,
but there might be some listeners who arejust don't feel they're in that right kind
of place.
or in their walk with Jesus or in theirlives, maybe they'll have really negative
(16:55):
reactions if someone brings challengerather than positive ones.
Is this how you see it working or have Igot that right or what should those people
do in that situation?
Yeah, I think that I'd want to, I mean youdid say walking with Jesus and of course,
you know, that's discipleship first andforemost.
(17:17):
It's
the life with Christ.
And if someone is a bit reticent, just togo back to what we talked about earlier,
perhaps they have had an experience wherethey have been betrayed by someone.
I've heard this more often than I'd liketo.
People in a church who shared a confidenceand people have gossiped about them behind
(17:39):
their back and or perhaps not helped themat all and just left them to flounder.
And so I think that's
Such a shame and so there could be realtrust issues there.
We have to respect that and You know trustis earned.
It's not something that you just say trustme and expect people to do that so it is
(18:01):
journeying alongside of people and inprayer in love and Just being open to
questions and perhaps criticisms and thinkwell, you know as a church we don't feel
like
You know, we've got this all nailed downand we do it right all the time and there
are things that we can learn.
(18:22):
Sure.
We're on a journey.
We're all on a journey, the leaders,everyone in the congregation.
So there's things that we can learn how todo things better.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks, James.
I think it's time we bring Iman into theconversation.
Um, she's got a comment before we move onto her particular story about what we've
just been talking about.
(18:42):
So I'll, I'll let her comment on thatbefore we chat with her further.
Just to say as well on a very practicalnotes, what's been my experience has been
at the start of any mentoringrelationship, there's a very frank
conversation about what the mentee wantsout of that relationship.
What are you looking for?
So if you are someone who is stillstruggling to build trust, the whole point
(19:05):
of it is that it's very honest and frank.
So if you can honestly have thatconversation and say, look, I've been
burnt before and this is where I want tostart.
I want someone who will...
challenged me to read my Bible more or toput into practice what I'm learning or to
help me come out of my shell and connectwith other members of the church body
(19:26):
more.
You know, you can have those conversationsat the start.
It's not like we just start mentoring andimmediately it's like, these are all the
things you do wrong and you need to fixthose.
It's what do you want to gain out of thismentoring relationship?
It's a two way thing.
It's not just the mentor coming in.
telling you what your life should looklike at all.
In fact, there's none of that.
(19:47):
So just to say to anyone who might belistening, who thinks, oh, I'd love to do
something like this, but I'm too worriedabout what that would look like.
It's on your terms and that changes withtime as well.
So I will talk about this a bit more whenwe talk about me, but what my mentoring
started out as is not what it is now 16years on.
(20:08):
It's very, very different now and withlife changing as well.
from when I was a teenager to when I was ayoung adult to when I first got married.
Now being a mother, it looks different atevery stage.
So, and I imagine it will look differentin the future, but again, because you're
having an honest and open relationshipwith your mentor, you have that
(20:31):
conversations.
I disagree with my mentor sometimes, butthen we go, okay, well.
I don't agree, I don't quite see whatyou're saying, but I'm going to go back
and pray and ask God to either open myeyes or open your eyes.
One of us will change in this.
Usually it's me.
Usually it's me coming back.
And I guess the whole thing about this isthat both participants should be really...
(20:59):
good about keeping an ear open to what theHoly Spirit's saying and then following
the Holy Spirit's leading rather than, oh,I think this is a good idea or, oh, you
know, you should really sort that outbecause I think that's terrible or
whatever.
It's a lot more of saying, okay, God,let's together, you know, go on this
(21:21):
journey.
Yeah.
And just also on that note, I know there'sbeen times when a mentor has seen
something,
and actually felt the Holy Spirit said tonot say anything until I was ready.
And then I've brought that thing forwardand say, actually, I want to talk about
this thing.
And then you can kind of see the cyberrelief.
Oh my God, God has done the work.
We can talk about this now.
(21:42):
So mentoring isn't always immediatelycalling out everything you see that
actually the Holy Spirit might put a lidon things until the time is right, because
his timing is always perfect.
Great.
So Iman, as someone who has been inJames's church and
I mean, you've shared some of your storyin the book Holy Grit.
I just wanted to ask you what yourdiscipleship experience has been like.
(22:07):
For me, it's been very natural.
So when I joined the church, I was 16.
We'd just moved to the area and my momkind of took a leap of faith to get me to
church in the first place.
And I had this encounter with the HolySpirit and I was really excited about it.
being Christian, I thought, oh, this isgreat.
My life will now kind of just be fixed.
(22:29):
And then I realized, oh gosh, there wereloads of things I needed to come to terms
with in the way I was living.
Some of that stuff the Holy Spirit didnaturally.
I just started to choose to livedifferently.
Some things I would hear in the servicesand I would just say, oh, I need to put
this into practice and do, but because wehad Bible studies and we would hear
(22:50):
people's stories as we shared things, Inaturally wanted to learn more.
And so when it was first brought up, itstarted out more as a form of
accountability for me, because I thinkbeing an older teen, there were loads of
things that felt very high -pressured andI wanted someone to talk to more
regularly.
(23:11):
So it happened really naturally, thatprocess.
And then eventually I got a mentor,someone who could kind of come alongside
me, who was a bit more further along inthe faith and could see things a bit
differently.
I kind of, it was so natural that I didn'treally think of it as, I mean, I was a
(23:32):
little awkward at first because I was ateenager and I couldn't really express
myself very well, but it didn't feel likea heavy thing.
It felt like this extra support that I gotat church during that time.
And the main thing for me was learning howto live.
in the faith, because I just didn't haveany context for it.
(23:53):
My understanding of it was very different.
So that's how it started.
And as it kind of evolved, I then startedto see it more as something really
important to help me unpack things that Iwas learning for myself and say, okay,
this is what I'm seeing in the Bible.
This is what I kind of want to do, but Idon't really know how to get there.
(24:14):
Can you pray with me?
Can we look at this and work through ittogether?
And then somewhere along the line,
I then got the opportunity to mentorothers as well.
Other younger women who were coming intothe church and, and, yeah.
I was going to ask that if you've been onboth sides.
Yeah.
In fact, I think becoming a mentor alsotaught me so much about being a mentee and
(24:36):
so much about my own faith.
You learn so much from the person you'rementoring as well and the way that they
approach things.
And, and also God does a brilliant thingthat actually, as you work on yourself,
There's certain things that you're thenable to see a bit clearer that you
wouldn't have been able to see before.
You can then share from your livedexperience that it's not like, oh, you
(24:57):
know, nice thoughts.
It's like, no, this is what I've seen Goddo in my life.
Now it might not look exactly the same inyour life, but I know that it is possible
for God to do this.
And so we can bring this to God andthere's a confidence that comes with that.
And so it's been quite, yeah, it's been...
a natural and evolving process throughout.
And it's still that way.
(25:18):
I still have a mentor and I also mentor atthe same time.
And through the journey, have or is thereanything that you would have done
differently?
Yeah, I think particularly because Istarted out quite young, I think it was
especially difficult for me to expressmyself quite well, or by I had a few life
controlling issues at the time too.
(25:39):
But the main thing that
I wish I'd understood is the family natureof church.
It took me a very long time to understandthe church being a body, a people, and not
a building, because I was so fiercelyindependent, and I still struggle to not
(26:00):
be now, and to kind of think, okay, like,I'm here and I want to serve the church
and everything, but it's kind of, andthat's separate from the church being part
of my life.
And more and more I've
gotten to appreciate how, why we havechurch as it is, that it's such a needed
relationship.
You, so much of the character developmentI've had in my life hasn't been from some
(26:25):
grand revelation by myself in my room.
There've been amazing moments, you know,reading Bible by myself, but actually it's
being close with someone else in thechurch and then either something is said
or...
Um, somebody comes up in the relationshipand I go, Ooh, why does that feel a
particular way?
And that's what I then take to God thatreveals something in me that we need each
(26:45):
other because actually you think you're avery patient person and you asking God to
give you more patience until you're throwninto a relationship with people.
And then you realize that, Oh no, I don'thave as much patience as I need.
I thought I had, I, I wish I'd known myneed for people sooner.
I think my life would look a bitdifferently, but I.
(27:06):
I am also grateful that I got hereeventually.
Well, thank you so much, Iman, for sharingyour story.
James, just having heard that from Iman,is this a typical picture of what you see
in your church as people go through thisdiscipleship, mentorship kind of
relationship or is every one different?
(27:28):
Yes, I think it's a learning experienceand of course, each one of us being
different.
I think that that's why I keep coming backto that word organic that of course, you
know, there'll be guidelines aroundsafeguarding and looking after people and
(27:49):
all of those things that we really do needthose.
And I go into a lot more detail about thatin the book.
Yeah, just building a space safe, a safespace where people can.
feel free to open up.
And of course that takes time, time.
(28:10):
And it is a lifelong investment.
So we have to give it time and ourefforts, our best efforts.
So in the individuality of every person,we respect that and realize some people
are gonna like really move quickly throughthe things that they're challenged on,
(28:32):
others more.
slow and I think I'm sometimes one ofthose slow people.
The Lord has to keep bringing things backto me.
I think perhaps my sometimes stubbornnature but I have people that are really
patient with me and pray for me.
Wonderful congregation and that I shouldalso add that I lead with my wife Ruth and
(28:58):
she's a real help to me coming alongsideand so...
It's very much one of those things that werespect the rights, the full rights of the
person, see them as someone who's createdin the image of God and that we need to
respect and nurture and love.
And Jesus certainly is the great shepherdand as leaders we are to shepherd his
(29:23):
people, the flock under his care.
That's great James, thank you.
do check out James Poach's book, HolyGrit, Gaining Traction on Life's Journey
with Jesus.
We're just about to have a short littlebreak now, but we will be back and we will
find out a little bit more about James'slife after these.
(29:46):
The Mantle by Mark F.
Hobson, PhD is a fictional novel about thecloth that covered Jesus's head in the
tomb known as the mantle.
What is the secret history of the sacredobject?
What miracles might unfold?
And who possesses it now?
Packed full of intrigue and adventure, themantle intertwines both past and present
(30:10):
in a gripping supernatural tale.
Every moment is a divine revelation.
Get your copy of The Mantle by Mark F.
Hobson today from DrMarkHobson .com orfrom Amazon.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast,you can help keep it on the web.
(30:30):
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
Head over to buymeacoffee .com slash MattMcChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's shownotes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and helpthis podcast to keep supporting Christian
books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian BookBlurb podcast.
(30:53):
I'm your host, Matt McChlery.
Thanks for staying with us.
I am being talking with the author, JamesPoach, about his book, Holy Grit, just
before the break.
And we are just going to find out a littlebit about who James is.
We like to peel back the dust jacket ofthe book and find out a little bit more
about our author's life.
(31:15):
So, James, what do you do for fun?
Right, yes, well,
I certainly love to get out in nature.
I find that I'm really able to connectwith God when I have time and space and to
pray and to see all the beautiful thingsthat He's created all around us.
And that leads me into photography.
(31:36):
I do love taking pictures and usually it'skind of out of the corner of my eye.
I see something and it's kind of like,hey, I'm over here, take my picture.
So, you know, as I mentioned, being up inScotland, just seeing the beauty of God's
creation and everything blanketed in snowand the sun coming out, it's just
(31:57):
beautiful.
So I'm waxing lyrically here.
So you could tell that's a little bit of apassion, just being out in nature and I
enjoy cooking.
I love to.
I love to eat.
So naturally it just flows into the whole.
your favorite kind of food to eat?
Yeah, I do love Mexican food.
(32:19):
I think it was, yeah, I'm American.
So I was kind of born and raised inPennsylvania primarily.
And, uh, but then moved to the South.
So there's a considerable amount ofMexican food there.
So I really discovered that came to lovethat.
So I cook a bit of that.
and enjoy eating that and sharing it withothers.
(32:42):
I love making queso as Eman will attest.
So, uh, it's so good.
I was this close to requesting it as abirthday present and realized that's a bit
odd to call up your pastor and go, can youplease give me queso for my birthday?
Oh, Eman, you missed out.
(33:02):
I you're awake.
I probably would have.
Oh, that's brilliant.
So we're ready to find out your favoritefood.
Do you have any other favorite things thatyou like to do or watch?
Do you watch much television?
Well, I would perhaps have said that yearsago, but I find more and more just other
(33:25):
things.
I think reading lately has becomesomething that's more to the fore.
So I like reading just all kinds of...
different books that inspire andencourage.
Is there a particular book that you wouldrecommend to our listeners today?
(33:46):
I know I'm putting you on the spot.
Well, I think there's one written by DavidWatson, an Anglican vicar who was based up
in York.
And I only happened to read his book ondiscipleship after I had written Holy
Grit.
And I wish that I had read it before, butthe thing that really struck me was those
(34:12):
key things about discipleship aretimeless.
And there were a couple of good quotes inthere.
I thought, gosh, I wish I'd had this in,but because I have revised and updated the
book and added in new testimonies in thissecond edition, I put those in because
they were too good not to go in.
(34:35):
So I would, I would highly recommendDavid's book.
It's, um, it's a wonderful, wonderful, uh,book all about discipleship too.
Wonderful.
Thanks.
Have you got any family, James?
I know you've mentioned the son earlieron.
Yes.
Yeah.
We got my wife and I have four sons allgrown in their thirties and we have seven
(34:57):
grandchildren.
Oh, that's cute.
You busy are all.
Yes, absolutely.
They all live within.
like four miles of us and they all attendour church which is absolutely wonderful.
It's such a blessing to have them allaround.
So yeah, very proud of them all.
Have you got anything that you're workingon at the moment?
(35:20):
Anything that you can give us like a sneakpeek into?
It might be another book or it could besome other program or something that's
kind of bubbling away in the background atthe moment.
Right.
I'd say first and foremost it's like thisbook and how to help others to grapple
(35:44):
with this, not just in the church becauserecently we've done a whole series on the
book around the key elements that come outof it.
So we had different people leading thoseand we also introduced some of the people.
that share their stories, theirtestimonies in the book so that it kind of
(36:06):
helps it come alive because that's ofcourse something I wanted to do when I
wrote the book.
It's like, okay, you can have the generalidea of what discipleship is, but what
does it look like in the 21st century?
And here's some people that can tell youhow they have grappled with that and how
it has changed their lives in this walkwith Jesus and others.
(36:29):
So,
from time to time people say, oh, I wishwe had this in our church.
And, you know, it's about talking withpeople, like, what would that look like in
your context?
And either with leaders or with peoplethat are members of a church where perhaps
they don't have any particular focus ondiscipleship.
(36:49):
How can we help them to do that?
Now, recently I was asked to...
write an article for a magazine of aChristian radio station.
And I thought that was really interestingbecause, you know, Matt, years ago, I
didn't have confidence in writing.
(37:10):
And I had this really weird fear that Iwould be asked to write an article for a
magazine and I wouldn't be able to do it.
You know, we all have these kind of weirdthings.
And I really felt like the Lord said tome, well, James, has anyone asked you?
to write an article for ChristianMagazine.
And I was like, no.
(37:32):
He's like, well then, what are you worriedabout?
And ironically, that's what I'm doing now.
And I think, well, the Lord has put thatbefore me and I wanna honor that.
And it's just a little bit about what Icover in the book about love and how it's
so important and key to discipleship.
(37:55):
So that's one.
Have you got any idea what this will looklike?
Not the magazine article, but your ideaabout how to equip other churches to
implement a discipleship program likethis.
Is it going to be like another book or isit going to be, I don't know, like a
(38:17):
sermon series?
Was it going to be like a conference or,you know, what format or shape is that
going to take?
Or is it still really early days?
Are we not at that point yet?
Yeah, I'd say that it's early days, but Ifeel that it will be important to have
conversation with church leaders becausein every church there's a glass ceiling
(38:38):
and that is the leadership.
And you know, you can have people incongregations, they're wanting to, we can
see this from time to time in different,I'm sure all of us have, where there are
members of a congregation, they're reallyexcited and wanting to go ahead with a
particular project or vision.
And the leader is,
maybe reticent or feeling it's not time.
(39:00):
And so the leadership will hold the churchin a certain way.
And if God is challenging a church indiscipleship, then we really need to say,
hey, leaders, you know, how's it going?
And, you know, what would it look like inyour context?
Because we're not saying, oh, the way thatwe do it is the only way to do
(39:22):
discipleship and mentoring.
and all of that.
But let's have a conversation around that.
Well, I know that I for one would bereally interested in something like that
for my church.
Now for my listeners, I did tell James atthe beginning that I loved his book, Holy
Grit, so much that I didn't want to giveit away.
And that's true.
(39:43):
I don't.
I want to keep this.
I think it's a valuable book for mybookshelf, but it's so good that I think I
have to give it away as well.
So I will be giving away a copy of JamesPoacher's book Holy Grit that you can get
on my newsletter.
So head over to mattmclarry .com and signup to my newsletter and in a few months
(40:04):
time I'll be giving away this book HolyGrit and I'll actually have to go and buy
another copy for my bookshelf.
So there you go that that's how good Ithink this book really is.
So thank you James.
Before we go...
Um, where can people find you on socialmedia or online or podcasts or whatever?
Um, how can people get in touch or infact, buy the book?
(40:27):
Yes.
Um, well, first and foremost, everythingis kind of concentrated at our website,
which is regen .church.
There's no .com or anything.
It's just regen, R E G E N dot church.
As for social media, about three yearsago, yeah, three years ago in Lent, I gave
up.
social media and you know what happened?
(40:49):
I never came back to it.
It was just one of those things.
I felt like well what we're doing as achurch we can just put it all there.
So there's as I mentioned the series thatwe have that you can find the links on the
website.
The podcasts of the church can be found onall the different platforms Spotify,
(41:12):
Apple, Google, whatever.
So you can find
find us there.
And as for buying the book, Amazon, youcan buy it on Kindle and there are like
other bookshop chains, your localChristian bookshop could source it for
you, Waterstones.
So there's just a lot of different ways toaccess it.
(41:34):
If you search for Holy Grit, James Poach,it'll, it shall appear.
And also just a shout out to InstantApostle.
for taking on the project for me andallowing me to publish with them.
Appreciate them.
Yeah, they're a really great publisher.
Yeah, they've published one of mine aswell.
So I would agree with you.
They are fantastic to work with.
(41:56):
So just for the benefit of the listeners,I will be putting in the show notes of
this episode, a link to that website thatJames has just mentioned, Regen .church.
So all you have to do is go to the shownotes, click on that, and it'll take you
to where you want to be.
Thank you so much for joining us today,James and Iman.
It's been fantastic chatting with you.
(42:19):
Thank you, Matt.
Wonderful opportunity to share with you.
You're brilliant.
Thank you so much.
Thank you to this episode's sponsor, thenovel called The Mantle by Mark F.
Hobson, PhD.
Do have a look at his website,drmarkhobson .com and grab yourself a copy
of that book.
And thank you as well for having a listento this podcast.
(42:41):
Don't forget that the Christian Book Blurbcomes out twice a month on the 1st and the
15th.
So I do look forward to seeing you andhaving the pleasure of your company once
again, really soon, where I'll be talkingwith another Christian author about their
books, their life and their faith.
Thanks for listening.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian BookBlurb with your host, Matt McChlery.
(43:05):
Do give it a like, give it a share and letyour friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon onanother Christian Book Blurb.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.