Mom 'n 'em Coffee Brings Specialty Coffee to Cincinnati, OH - Start Coffee Business Podcast

In this episode, Austin and Colin from Mom and M Coffee share their journey from San Francisco to Cincinnati and the challenges they faced in opening their coffee shop. They discuss their decision to start roasting their own coffee and the process of choosing a roaster. They also talk about the benefits of owning their real estate and the foreign concepts they introduced in Cincinnati. Finally, they explain their coffee offerings and how they make decisions for their portfolio. In this conversation, Valerian and Colleen discuss various aspects of the coffee business, including coffee blends and single origins, the cost and quality of espresso, tips for starting a food business, the importance of passion and entrepreneurship, and future plans for both the business and the host.   Takeaways

• Coffee blends and single origins offer different flavor profiles and can be used in various brewing methods.
• The cost of espresso can be higher due to the quality of the beans and the complexity of the blend.
• Passion and entrepreneurship are essential for success in the food industry.
• Starting a food business requires hard work, dedication, and a focus on financial management.
• Future plans for the business include consistent quality, growth, and bridging the gap between farmers and consumers.
• Consider to own your real estate when launching a business

Chapters 00:00 Introduction and First Coffee Memories 03:14 From San Francisco to Cincinnati 06:34 Starting Mom and M Coffee 09:30 Challenges of Opening Mom and M Coffee 13:42 Joining the Mom and M Coffee Team 16:05 Starting with an Airstream Trailer 19:32 Introducing Foreign Concepts in Cincinnati 21:55 The Offerings at Mom and M Coffee 25:12 The Decision to Start Roasting 29:15 Learning to Roast and Choosing a Roaster 36:19 The Benefits of Owning Real Estate 45:01 Roasting Portfolio and Decision-Making 45:30 Introduction to Coffee Blends and Single Origins 50:00 The Cost and Quality of Espresso 52:06 Tips for Starting a Food Business 56:23 The Importance of Passion and Entrepreneurship 01:01:07 Future Plans for the Business 01:04:01 Future Plans for the Host 01:07:21 Where to Find Coffees.me

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, Coffee is Me listeners.
Welcome in another episode of Coffeeis Me podcast, where we interview
Successful startups, so we can learnourselves to make our businesses better.
Today, I have two gentlemenfrom Mom 'n 'em Coffee from
Cincinnati, Ohio, Austin and Colin.
Hey guys, welcome.
Hey, thanks for having us.

(00:21):
Thanks for having us
us here
Thank you for revealing your secrets.
We did a kind of a small prequelabout the episode about this podcast,
and I'm super excited that you guysrevealed a lot of awesome information.
So I think the listeners will have A lotof fun, a lot of value from this podcast.
So before we dive in, Ihave this warm up question.

(00:43):
I usually ask, do you rememberyour first sip of coffee?
And how was it?
Colin, you go first of
I do remember my first sip of coffee.
It's also, it is myearliest memory with coffee.
I was like three or four years oldand we were at a Dunkin Donuts with my
mom and she handed me her cup of blackcoffee that was piping hot and I went

(01:07):
to take a sip and instead of sippingit, I just squeezed the cup as hard
as I could and got coffee everywhere.
Got it all over her and she wasscreaming, yelling, throwing a fit.
And that was the earliest memory I haveof coffee and just growing up I would just
Take sips of coffee here and there formy mom with French vanilla creamer in it.
And it was always like Folgersor Duncan and stuff like that.

(01:31):
But yeah, pretty much firstcoffee memory, destroying
And that's why you're working now in acoffee industry that you remedy your soul.
Austin, how about
it's just a controlled combustion.
I guess
The the stovetop espresso make it maker.
We would have it growing up allthe time after meals, before meals.
And it was just so delicious.

(01:53):
And after that, I guessmy first cup that really.
Got my attention and really engagedme with coffee was I was about 16
years old in San Francisco and I wasvisiting my brother at the time and
he lives in the sunset district ofSan Francisco and it was like this
thing in the morning to go get coffee.

(02:13):
We already had it at home all thetime in Cincinnati with the family,
but it was like a real thing, right?
Every morning get coffeeand then start the day.
So we went to this placecalled trouble coffee company.
It was, On Judah street, I believe in SanFrancisco owned by a lady named Julietta.
So we went there to get coffee andtoast and I'll never forget it.

(02:35):
It was just like one of the mostromantic times with coffee for me.
And the place wasn't busy at the time.
I guess a lot of peopledidn't know about it.
It was very quiet in the sunset, but Iremember having a Gibraltar and a piece
of toast at Trouble Coffee Company.
And from there on my life has changed.

(02:57):
Partially your Italian roots,partially San Francisco is the culprit.
Colin, you are the directorof coffee for n 'em.
And,
you Austin, you are a co founder.
yep, my brother and
and I,
I love the story because whenColin was here at Boot Coffee, we
talked about you guys, gossip toyou good and bad and only good.

(03:20):
Don't worry.
I just loved your story that you guys hadsome businesses here in San Francisco.
And then one day you backed upand went to Cincinnati and I
want you to tell this story.
How did this happen?
we're from Cincinnati originally,my brother and I, and we grew
up in the restaurant business.
My dad's worked inrestaurants his entire life.

(03:42):
And obviously, as I said before,my family's from Southern Italy.
So we grew up around food, wheneverwe're together as a family, it's always
around food as most families usually are.
So my brother at a young agedecided that he wanted to.
Become a chef one day, went to schoolfor it, traveled the world a little
bit, went to Italy, did Thailand.
And when he came back home toCincinnati, it was like after college,

(04:05):
what was the next move for him?
It was San Francisco.
So when I graduated high school, Iwent out there as well to follow him.
And live this dream just to seesomething else and be somewhere else,
get out of Cincinnati and explore.
Cause I think the best educationthat you're going to receive
is probably from travel.
Cause you can read all the books in theworld, but it doesn't mean you've tasted

(04:27):
it, seen it, touched it, so we both wentout there and we just explored, man.
There's so much food, so much coffee,so much culture, so much to, to,
that surrounds you in the Bay Area.
And as, as much as people might havean opinion on that area it's amazing.
It's an amazing place.
So while we were there, mybrother always wanted to open a

(04:47):
restaurant of his own one day.
So he did five years afterhim, himself moving there.
And it was called Hillside Supper Club.
And at the time I was working at ChezPanisse restaurant in Berkeley which
I worked at for about five years.
Which I didn't really know at the timewhen I was 18, it was an institution.
And I was like honored to work there.

(05:09):
I was, it's to this day, one of myfavorite places I've ever worked.
And as I was leaving Chez, I wasbecoming the general manager and
beverage director for my brother'srestaurant, Hillside Supper Club.
And I went there full time.
And during that time.
And between all of this time in general,just living there, I was so into coffee,
learning it, drinking it, working,trying to stage as many places as I

(05:33):
could, taking trainings I'll neverforget using Blue Bottle Coffee at Chez
Panisse and like going there to meetthe managers and the roasters and go
to the training lab in West Oakland.
It was amazing.
And From there, as we worked atHillside Tepper Club, an opportunity
came available to have a little cafe.
And we took the opportunity and then weopened up a coffee shop called Provender.

(05:57):
It was on 18th Street in SanFrancisco, down the street from Plow.
And we had those businesses for quitea long time in San Francisco terms.
The coffee shop was five years andthe restaurant was eight years.
But during that time when we werethere, constantly building, talking,
growing as people as entrepreneurs.

(06:19):
And we just, I think we've always wantedto be back in Cincinnati at some point.
We always wanted to be a part of theculture and the community here and
the growth here and our families here.
And we didn't know at what capacity, likewhat it was like, is it a coffee shop?
Is there a restaurant?
What do we do?
So at around like 2014, 2015, westarted working on the business plan

(06:42):
for what we know today as mom and em.
And we just wrote down ideas ofwhat we would love to see and
we didn't have a name for it.
That stuff comes later down the road.
I feel like personally, it's more about.
Your concept, your energy, whatis it that you want to create?
What is it that you want tocreate craft for the community?

(07:03):
So we just would write things downand then, one day, like cost things
out, how much is it going to cost?
What's it look like?
Where's the money going to come from?
Which was probably one of thetoughest parts was finding money.
So yeah, throughout these years, 2016,2017, 2018, we continue building building.

(07:24):
And we eventually came to this idea thatwe're going to name it Mom and Em Coffee.
We're going to have it in anAirstream trailer on a piece of
property that my brother owns inCamp Washington of Cincinnati, Ohio.
And this property was where hewas going to live, actually.
The house that we're in todaywas supposed to be his house.

(07:44):
And we Work day and night witharchitects locally in Cincinnati and
designers in Cincinnati and in SanFrancisco to all work together to build
this concept, to figure out a budgetand to get it approved by the city.
And it was so difficult to justget the approval for the project.
It was, they wouldn't,they didn't understand it.

(08:05):
They just didn't understand theconcept of like why somebody would
want to open up a coffee shopinside of an Airstream trailer.
It got so silly to one point wherethey wanted us to have the actual
main component structure of thebuilding for the Airstream trailer,
be the restrooms that will be on theoutside of the Airstream trailer.

(08:25):
It was a silly, so we finally gotit approved after all this time,
back and forth flights and stuff.
And the, but the numbers came inand it was just not feasible at all.
Like you sell this cup of coffee forthree, four or five bucks, whatever it is.
We're just not going topay this project off.
And not only that, we'renot going to make a living.
We're not going to makeany money off of it, right?
No matter what you do, what businessyou're in you deserve to make money.

(08:48):
Because you have to live too, right?
I just told Tony, my brother, Isaid, I don't think this is smart.
We shouldn't do it.
I don't feel good about it.
And he came back the next day.
I was working at the coffeeshop in San Francisco.
And he said, what if wedid it inside of the house?
On the property and I at that momentI was like, I think this guy is
going nuts I think the restaurantbusiness has gotten to him a lot.

(09:12):
So it's a funny time it's always emotionalto think back on that time of life
that we know we did we drew up a plan.
We moved everything into that insidethe house We got zoning for it.
We figured out what it would cost whatit would take And then the second hurdle
was finding money for our project.
But, and it just took forever, likewhat, how we wanted to navigate

(09:33):
that, whether you want it to use aninvestor or an angel investor or a
bank or family, but unfortunately ourfamily doesn't have any money to loan.
So we just, it just took forever.
And finally we landed a smallbusiness loan with Huntington bank.
I was super lucky.
Yeah, after all the peoplewe've asked and stuff.

(09:53):
Yeah, we opened 2019 on Mother's Day.
And we've moved back in 2019 of February.
What is that, three or four months?
And when we got back,construction was like, a mess.
This place was a wreck.
It was not ready at all.
And we had a machine sittingfor a year and a half.

(10:14):
And we were just ready to,we were eager to get open.
It just, none of this is easy.
It's all time and all, everythingjust takes time and money is
what I've learned thus far.
And but we opened andwe opened with a bang.
I think a lot of people in Cincinnatiwanted to see the project come to life.
I think they were.
They're really invested in it.

(10:35):
They were really just ready, they'rejust eager because they kept hearing
the news and following our Instagram andthey were like, wow, the Ferrari brothers
are going to come back to town and opensomething like, wow, we can't wait.
And I think what makes it evenmore meaningful and soulful
is that we're from here.
We grew up here, our families from here,everyone knows us and we know them.

(10:56):
And you're also coming back to asmall town in a way, like you're not.
In this big city like san francisco or newyork where you're just another fish inside
of the pond we can actually be somethinghere and be a big part of this community
Colin, how did you join the team?
Were you in San Francisco oryou already been in Cincinnati?
I was originally in Toledo, Ohio,which is just it's on like the

(11:19):
northern edge of Ohio probablylike an hour south of Detroit.
I grew up there.
I worked in coffee there for five orsix years and before that I went to
school in Cincinnati for one semester.
Didn't work out.
Student aid wise just gotscrewed over by the university.
So while I was in Cincinnati, I fellin love with the city and just that
it was so different than Toledo, eventhey're 200 miles apart fell in love

(11:43):
with the city and just made it a goalwhen I moved back home to Toledo to pay
off my student loan debt that somedayI was going to move back to Cincinnati
and just start my life there, justbuild my professional career out there.
And at the time I was super intoarchitecture and really wanted to
go to school in architecture, but,I quickly fell in love with coffee
far deeper than architecture.

(12:03):
Now it's just a passion justto look at buildings and study
buildings and stuff for me.
So yeah, I worked at a shop for five yearsthere and then convinced my now wife to
uproot our whole lives in Toledo and leaveour families and move down to Cincinnati.
We moved down with a job thatI had already lined up but we
moved down March 7th of 2020.
So two or three days before theentire country shut down from COVID.

(12:27):
So needless to say that jobfell through pretty quickly.
The moment we got down there and alreadysigned our lease and lived down there.
So we get to know our apartment reallywell unemployed for a little bit.
And then I had a job managinga property for a year and a
half, and I absolutely hated it.
Coming from coffee where you'retaking people's money to provide
a good that brings them joy.

(12:47):
I was.
Taking their money and providinga service that in the end brought
them sadness because they were juststoring their belongings there.
We would just auction stuffoff if they didn't pay.
And during a nationwide pandemic,when everyone is short on
money it was really rough.
It ripped me apart.
So after, after a year and change ofthat I had met with Tony previously

(13:08):
in the past just to talk about thebusinesses and learn about Mom 'n
'em and Fausto, their restaurant.
I texted Tony in the drive thru of abank one day and I was like dropping
off the deposit for the, for my old job.
And I was like, Tony, I needto get back into coffee.
I hate my life here right now.
So that was June, 2021.
And Tony was like, yeah, come in.

(13:28):
We'll have you meet Austin andwe'll link up again and see where
we can fit you in the business.
And then yeah, from there they hiredme on and I was just working as a
barista and then just slowly workingmy way up through the business.
Totally feel you, Colin.
I used to work for United Nations inKosovo and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
my last job in Bosnia was very similar.
So basically, the United Nationswanted to move people back as they

(13:52):
were before the war, before theethnical cleansings and stuff.
And I Had to search on people, whetherthey repossessed property somewhere else.
And if they did, they had to be evicted.
It was awful.
I basically gave up.
I was like, I'm a humanrights officer, not a evictor.
So it was super depressing.
I would be still doing the job if Iwould not have this part of the job.

(14:13):
I'll probably.
Working in, some human rights, whatever,but I was like, nope, thank you.
So I feel you and I think thecoffee is better even for me.
I like coffee.
Going from serving like thatservice where people hated me.
And just like not having any growthin there for me personally was
just, it was like the worst thing.
Cause like I was already at thepoint where I could go and that was
the highest position I can be inat that property management role.

(14:37):
And to come back into coffee andcontinue to continue education,
continue learning and actually like.
Serving people and like having fun againat work just was the biggest change
of like happiness in life for me justto be back in coffee where it's my
passion and I feel like it's my callingto like actually serve coffee, brew
coffee, roast coffee and everything.
It was just complete quality of life swap.

(14:59):
I often get calls of people like, Hey,I'm thinking to get in a coffee industry.
Do you guys, recommend this switch?
I'm an XYZ in my profession.
And I'm like, I don't know.
Coffee will not make you super rich.
It's not like you're becoming investmentbanker or, influencer of in, in
a field of finances or whatever.

(15:22):
But.
It makes you a happy life, can make yougood living, I think, it provided me and
my family and it's just have to know ifyou go with that notion to that and coffee
makes you happy, I think it's a greatprofession to, great industry to be in,
so not, I'm sure that a lot of people getto reach in it, that's cool, but it's not

(15:43):
the same as, being in finances, right?
Yeah.
Or I.
T.
You gotta sell a lot of
Exactly.
Austin, I want to go back to yourstatement about the Airstream.
Many people dream to start their coffeecarts coffee, trailers as a first
step to get into the coffee industry.
And you said, Oh, it's not sustainable.

(16:05):
We just don't think wecould make enough money.
Okay.
You would not recommendpeople to start there?
I guess it depends onwhat you're doing, right?
I think if this thing is mobile.
And you're in a city that is aggressivewith events and maybe like street

(16:26):
food fairs or whatever is going on.
I would recommend it.
I don't think there's a down playto it, but to be honest with you, I
think our budget came back to do theAirstream and it was around 850, 000.
I just didn't find, Ididn't find it feasible.
Yeah.
You had, we had to like literallybuild electric into the ground.
We had to structure thisthing into the ground.

(16:48):
It needed to be, it couldn't sit onthe wheels like it should have been.
It was a very weird thing.
And I think that part of thatis part of the city too, right?
I think we're in Cincinnatiand not to bash the city, but.
I think Mark Twain said it's like a little10 years behind or something like that.
Like this city is just a touchbehind current cities like,

(17:10):
like Chicago or New York, it'scatching up, don't get me wrong.
But what I mean is that when wewere going through the zoning
structure for this project, theyjust didn't understand what it was.
People frowned upon, theywere like, this is crazy.
This is weird.
And now today, it's so funny in thesame city today, there's plenty of them.
There's.
There's coffee trucks that go around.

(17:32):
There's an Airstream trailerthat serves cocktails.
It's this is what wewere trying to do guys.
It's just coffee, but I think it wouldbe something we would maybe do one day,
as like a fifth location or a thirdlocation or whatever it might be, but
I think to start off for us, I just, Ididn't see the vision and I think after
doing businesses in San Francisco andseeing what it takes And seeing the

(17:55):
numbers go in and the numbers go out.
I just didn't, I didn'twant that kind of life.
I want to make sure we can build, Iwant to make sure that we can like.
Take care of people and grow with thestaff and be able to create this family.
If you will, be able to employpeople and be able to afford it,
and I just felt like having theAirstream would have been tough.

(18:16):
For here, for, and for our climatetoo, in the wintertime, it's so cold.
How many people are going tocome in on a day on one day?
That's what we would do.
We would sit down and gothrough a Monday through Sunday.
And say to ourselves, how muchare we going to make every day?
And we would navigate if we hadsold X amount of pastries, X amount
of cappuccinos and drip coffee.

(18:36):
And I think at one point with momand him, with the Airstream idea, we
were like, okay, on a Monday, we'reexpecting to make 200, maybe 175.
And then you add up each day withSaturday, Sunday, and then the month.
And it's man, this justdoesn't seem feasible, scary,
with that, not that with that investment.

(18:56):
That's like crazy.
You can build a beautiful cafe for 800k.
That's insane.
So you touched on this a little bit butI'm really curious you moved from San
Francisco again, one of the food capitals.
With a very innovativeconcept of Cincinnati, Ohio.
And you said that it'sa little bit behind.
Which, I don't think it's reallytrue anymore, anywhere because of

(19:18):
the social media and everything.
So you get everything, all theinformation on food and trends, catches
up much faster than it used to be.
But still, I'm going to ask thisquestion was your concept of mom and
m's foreign for people in Cincinnati?
Yeah, I think so.
I think to start with, we openedup with wine, and we opened up

(19:39):
with tinned fishes and a lot ofpeople didn't really understand it.
They're like, what is it?
What's a tinned of fish?
Not, I love the Midwest, but some ofthese people don't know they're just
like, Oh, you mean star kiss tuna.
It's like this isn't it, like youhaven't experienced the real McCoy,
like the real good stuff, whether it'sanchovy or octopus or sardine and what
it's for and when, what time of dayyou eat it and what do you eat it with?

(20:02):
And how do you, how can you experiencethis to really just blow your mind,
and yeah, it was pretty foreign, thewhole concept, the whole idea of what.
What we were, like being dedicatedto our mother and having our mom work
with us and all working as a family.
I think a lot of it was foreign for sure.
But I think people like it.
I think that's the beauty inside ofdoing a Your business whatever it

(20:25):
might be is like give some give peoplesomething different That they don't
already have on a daily basis Like whywould I just go open up another coffee
shop when there's one down the street?
What makes you so different?
How do you stick out?
If everyone's just wearing white airforce ones on mission street, the person
with that where's the all pink pairare going to stick out and people are

(20:48):
going to want to go visit that personand say, man, I like your sneakers.
They're pretty cool.
So how can we stick out?
And I liked that we were foreign.
I love it.
I still love it today.
I hope we can be, become more foreignevery day because people love that,
they love the food that we offer.
They love the hospitality that weoffer is different than any other cafe.

(21:09):
Sometimes you go intothese shops and these.
People are angry, they don't even say hi.
It's what's your problem?
I know you might have some issues at homeor whatever, but try to leave that at the
door, and that's another thing that wetouch base up, touch base on here at Mom
'n 'em is really good hospitality, right?
That's gonna leave you with amemorable experience to bring you back.

(21:29):
So tell me what's Mom 'n 'em,what you guys offer and what
did you guys offer and changed?
we've morphed a little bit and thingshave changed like a tad bit, but it's
the same since we opened in 2019.
We we have a full espresso bar.
We offer drip coffee.
We don't do any pour overs.
Again, one day that could change and wemight be able to offer pour overs one day,

(21:52):
especially now that we roast in house.
I think it could be a great addition.
We have a little breakfast menu.
We do toast.
So we do almond butter, banana toast,we make almond butter in house we have
avocado toast, we do an egg sandwich andit's very simple, it's not a huge menu,
I think it's six items we've added afew things over the years, just that are

(22:13):
different or whatever and then, we triedgiving the whole house made pastry thing.
I try.
And I think we spoke on it yesterday whereyour friend was like, Oh, I should really
do this cause I'm selling X amount ofpastries per day and my profit could be
this much more if I make them in house.
So it's been a dream for us to allto do that, especially laminated

(22:34):
does, which are very difficult.
And in San Francisco, we actuallymade our pastries in house, but
they were a little more cake like,and nothing was like extravagant.
It was just very simple, like a brownie orsomething or cookie, which is delicious.
People love that.
So we tried it here and it's alittle difficult, especially for
us as like my speaking for myself,like as an owner, as a partner

(22:57):
that I don't work in pastry at all.
So when someone asks me a questionthat involves it, I'm a little like.
I don't know.
I could cook, I can tell you a littlebit, but I don't really make pastries.
I couldn't tell you what happens toa croissant if you leave it in the
oven too long or not long enough.
I don't know that world, but I thinkit's something that we'd like to revisit
one day again, and then we've changed.

(23:20):
A lot, since Colin joined, we roastcoffee now in house, so in 2019, we didn't
roast, it wasn't really on our agenda toroast, we didn't really think about it.
I don't know if it was a thingthat we wanted to do at the time.
But through the years and, really throughCOVID we've changed a lot in that kind
of way of just thinking about thingsdifferently, packaging things differently.

(23:42):
And it's been proven that it works,at least with our business model,
that people want these things.
Which made us morphinto what we are today.
And we went from onecafe, now we have two.
So I think we've definitelybroadened our network and horizon
within the community a lot.
So to the person you're referringis Samir Shah and we have episode

(24:03):
for people who want to check it out.
Samir is a co founder of Voyager CraftCoffee and they have their own pastry
program, but as he says in a podcastand also he does course at Boot Coffee.
How to start a coffee shop.
He says that they could onlystart the pastry program when
they had four or five locations.
Otherwise, it just doesn'tmake any sense, right?

(24:24):
But after that, when you can sell volumethen it makes a lot of sense because
I know a little bit about baking.
I'm, I see, I don't do laminateddough, but I bake a lot of other
stuff, sourdough stuff and pizza.
that has the oven.
And, making croissant cost nothingwhen it comes to materials,
when it comes to skills.
It's a skill.

(24:45):
It's, it's not easy, but to getthere, you have to have volume.
So I think that your yourdecision was smart.
You guys mentioned thatyou started to roast.
Colin, what was the decision process?
Why did you guys decide to roast andnot use the coffee you used before?
For me personally, like from my pointof view, my aspect of it I've been

(25:05):
in coffee for about a decade nowand pretty much since day one, it's
always intrigued me like the scienceand chemistry behind roasting coffee.
It's just the whole concept of bringinglike this raw agricultural products
through so many hands and farmersand so many different, like very.
Responsible positions to like, keepthe quality up to roasting and then

(25:26):
showcasing the coffee at a cafe forme, it was just like that second chain
down the line from I'm brewing it now.
I want to learn how toroast it to then brew it.
So that was like my passion just to learnhow to roast it and figure that out.
And prior to starting roasting and likeactually having us take the leap, leap
into roasting I would just read books,read blog posts and watch videos about

(25:48):
roasting coffee and just like fantasizingabout it, trying to like, make it make
sense in my mind to make it happen.
So that was like theprecursor to us roasting.
And then when Tony and Austininterviewed me in June, 2021, the
third question I asked was do we wantto start roasting or do you plan on
starting to roast your own coffee?
Or is this even an idea in your head?
And at the time they were like,yeah we're very happy with our

(26:11):
with our current coffee roaster.
They provide really good stuff and wehave a great relationship with them.
But then just as like time wenton, we just, the cafes started
consuming more and more coffee.
And then we opened the second cafe andthen it almost doubled or tripled the
amount of coffee that we were selling.
I just started poking at him like, Heyguys, we should consider, we should
look into the numbers, see how long itwould take to pay off a roaster that

(26:33):
costs as much as a Tesla, and theneventually this, the numbers made sense
with how much coffee we were consuming.
So then we just took the lead.
We bought the the littleIkawa sample roaster.
It was just like the first step.
And I just went down therabbit hole from there.
Colin, I have to smack you a littlebit because I hate when people
Refer to roaster prices to cars.

(26:54):
I had a student who did the sameand he said, It costs as my truck.
I was like, How much money makesyour truck per month for you?
How many people you can employbecause you have a truck or a Tesla?
Zero.
I guess in this instance,yeah, it makes sense to say it
was just 40, 000 or whatever.

(27:14):
But like when I'm explaining it tolike guests and everything, they
don't have the whole like outlookon like our point of view for it.
So I'm like, I'm going to compare it tosomething that you use every day, a car.
yeah okay, I forgive you.
Yeah,
very expensive.
if you get Loring, it goesto a hundred thousand.
So you know, 40k is notsuch a big investment.

(27:37):
Theoretically.
the money for you after that.
Yeah, exactly.
And for, if you take careof it for a very long time.
So what did you guys buy?
Yeah.
So we got a Probat P12 Mark 3.
So it's just like what the newestversion of the P12 that they have.
Just box standards gotlike the big screen on it.
So I can view all like the curvesand the graphs and stuff, track
inventory and stuff on there.

(27:59):
It's been really nice.
I have no prior experience other thanthe Giesens that you guys have at Boot.
And then for that, we were using Artisan.
So it feels like it translatedpretty well just cause it's a similar
software baked into the machine.
But yeah,
I'm curious.
Why did you guys decided for Probat?
For me I did a good research on the actualbrands and for the price or for what we
were looking for, the ease of use and thenjust the, one of the closer options that

(28:24):
wasn't, I don't know, like a Chinese mademachine or something was Probat because
they've had quarter in Chicago, whichfrom Cincinnati is like three and a half,
four hour drive if there's no traffic.
So if we really needed something, wecould just make a day trip, go out
there, pick something up and come back.
And then on top of that, they, they dohave a good training thing that they
provide for you when you actually likeorder a Probat and then they revamp

(28:46):
their whole like technical support, whichthat, that's a whole different thing.
Cause I know a lot of roasterroasting, like manufacturers are
dicey about technical supportand like warranties and stuff.
But anytime I've had a question,I'll email them and they usually get
back to me pretty quick about it.
Whether it's troubleshooting or tryingto convince them to send someone out
here from their like floating teamof texts that kind of like just go

(29:09):
everywhere and then just the name.
did you decide about the Probatbefore the course or after the course?
I think we had decided before thecourse August we got the Ikawa and
then from like September ish, we werelike shopping around and getting pricing
quotes from companies and for thequantity, like for 12 kilo the Probat
made the most sense for us and justbecause it had the screen and we could

(29:31):
also talk to Cropster Artisan, controlit through Cropster Artisan as well.
Cause I know Loring has acouple issues with yeah.
Actually operating the roaster,you have to use their screen.
But you can still view the graphsand everything through Cropster.
Yeah, it doesn't have a full integration.
So just the compatibility on top ofthat and then just, I don't know,

(29:53):
it's our first roaster and all I'veknown from a lot of the roasters that
I really value from my perspectiveis like a coffee consumer, but
also as a coffee professional,they all had roasted on Probats.
So in some sense, the name as well, butI know like you can get good quality
coffee off any roaster, essentially, aslong as you're doing the right thing.
Yeah don't worry, I'm not grillingyou because of the Giesens.

(30:15):
I'm a Probat boy, I have, I,it's my I have a lot of Probats
Yeah, you had the, didn't you have likethe UG 22 or something, or the big boy?
the big boy was sold as I sold my companybecause I did not know where to put it.
And it's, it's like.
What will I do with it?
Her name was Olivia and she should,
It's the size of a shed.
yeah, she should go and work, right?

(30:36):
So she's from sixties and now she'sin United Kingdom making people happy.
And, but I still have theProbat LG3, which is a three
kilo, a roaster from 1938.
I love how you guys wentthrough the process.
So first, research the price, lookingfor something reliable and finding
something which has a good support.

(30:58):
That's very important because yeah,it's not like a car that you have
for dealership everywhere, right?
It's, it's a technology, which if breaks.
Maybe your next option is in Europeor China or wherever they make them.
And that's hard.
So that's other reason why personallyI love so much used old roasters

(31:19):
because they're so simple to fix.
, I would never touch Loring.
If something breaks down, I'mlike, gosh, high tech, no.
Luckily for me.
They are in Santa Rosa.
It's easy.
And I don't know anything about asupport because I never owned one.
I roasted a lot on them,but never owned one.
But with my old Probats.
Wrench, fix 1, 2, 3, done a bigger,

(31:42):
little toolkit.
yeah, and a bigger things.
I always found some technicianbecause they are old, right?
So there was always a lot ofpeople who know their souls and
they can, heal them if necessary.
Yeah, perfect.
I have to ask this question,because I have to ask this question.
Where did you learn to roast?
previous to Boot, it was all selftaught and then I gained a lot of the

(32:04):
skills for actually like understandingnumbers and operating the business and.
You just using the main roastingfeatures through, through Boot Coffee,
through the it was like the roastingbusiness class course was like roaster
basics and then how to operate aroasting business, essentially.
And then from there on out, I've justbeen continuing to read books, take

(32:25):
notes, looking at my own stuff and justhypothesizing, just doing the scientific
method, just testing 1 variable at atime and just seeing how it affects the
coffee and just forming my own opinions.
From there?
Love it.
Love it.
I think that everyone should havetheir own opinions that's why I'm so
happy that you actually came to thecourse and we had a chance to meet

(32:45):
each other because you think aboutthis correctly, I acquire knowledge and
I process it and I create something.
With it, I have so many peoplewho on end of the course is
okay, can I get the profiles?
I'm like no, you can, I didpromise you, but don't you want
to think a little bit about that?
Like about how you're going to roast,what are you, who are your customers?

(33:09):
What would be your style?
And some people just, and that's whenI see that, I don't know, maybe they're
not ideal for roasting, but I don't wantto judge because honestly, I seen people
who are not such a good roasters, butthey're great salespeople and they have
amazing coffee brands, and later they findsomebody like you, and do good, but yeah.
So you did so much research.

(33:32):
How did this course compare?
I was your trainer, spoiler alert.
And how did I do?
Where was I strong and where doyou think you would like me to add
more value to the future students?
So from the course I feel like itdid give me a good, like base set
of knowledge for what I would cometo expect not going from just like

(33:53):
fantasizing about coffee roasting muchlike most people do in jobs, we'll have
people apply when we have the pastryprogram to apply to be a pastry chef,
but they didn't think oh I don't thinkI want to come into work at 3 or 4 a.
m.
And turn on the proofers and startprepping out dough and stuff.
So Or like with coffee and like thebarista world people will fantasize
and say oh, I'm sure being a baristais so nice and fun it's really great.

(34:16):
I just make coffee all day and butin reality, most of it's cleaning
and just like understanding thecoffee and the science behind it to
dial in the coffee to then produce agood product to give to your guests.
And I feel like the Boot class reallyit set the tone really well for what
a day in the life of being like aproduction roaster and like business

(34:36):
owner for roasting has to entail.
It's not just sample roasting and tastingthe crazy coffees that you'll cup.
It's also just taking that productyou're tasting and then expanding on it.
Continue to ask questions and justbring a product to the table that is
worthwhile, that's quality, and thatactually has some love behind it.

(34:57):
We took a class in Chicagothat felt a little rushed.
It was like a three or four daycourse with Probat to like we did
learn how to operate the roasters,which was the main thing that
like I wanted to go in there for.
But he didn't really explain a lotabout any like base numbers and
stuff that you try to hit or like.
Like for me personally, coming on toroasting coffee from not knowing a

(35:19):
lot I've felt that the industry wasgatekeeping a little bit much like
the coffee world was in the past.
Like no one really, from what I lookedcould would tell you like, oh, this
is typically the range, which firstcrack hits, or this is the normal
moisture content of a coffee or.
This bean is more dense.

(35:39):
How should you roast it a littledifferently and then adapt from there?
Oh, yeah.
From your class.
Yes.
Yeah.
So a lot more like the smallerdetails, but it, I feel like you
could have a roasting class thatlasted four months and we still
wouldn't touch base on everything.
So I'd say for the one week class,it was spectacular and I had a blast.
It's yeah.
Me too.
Always.
That's my favorite thing to deliver.

(36:00):
And you're very diplomaticand very nice, but okay.
Yeah.
do not expect anything else.
Yeah.
Austin, back to you a little bit.
You said you have, two cafes and Iknow each, I got fascinated about that.
You guys actually bought your real estate.
You.
Own it, which is a rare in a in businessanytime I read blog posts about this,

(36:25):
they all recommend no, you shouldnever buy your estate, you should rent.
And I went also down the rabbit holeof buying our real estate, but I want
to hear your perspective like firstI didn't want to hear price again,
how much you bought your first.
Cafe for, because that'sinsane, but also like, why did
you decided to go that route?
Think we decided to buy the real estatefor several reasons, but the biggest

(36:49):
reason I think is because you have controlof what goes on within those walls and
those boundaries, you get to own it,you get to decide what you do to it.
You have control of how long your leases,like some people are signing a five year,
10 year lease and finding that they'llinvest 2 million into this restaurant.

(37:12):
That 10 years you might be done.
Is it worth it?
Are you really going to makethat much money to pay that back?
I think just going through the motionsof having places in San Francisco and
renting and seeing the pain that wehad to endure with, every landlord
is different and they're all going tooffer you something different and some
care about you and some just don't.
So I think that was the biggest thing.

(37:33):
It was like, why wouldn'twe want to own it?
And if this thing didn't work out, it'sat least you're still on the property.
You could always rent it outor you could just sell it,
and why not do it if you can?
It's if you can buy it, you should, thatway you're going to last, last a lifetime.
And I think for us at Mom 'n'em, is that we're looking at
things for years on out, right?

(37:53):
I'm not doing something for nextweek or next month or next year.
I'm, I want to make sure it'sgoing to last a lifetime.
I want this to be here forever.
It should, that should be the goal.
And it also just helps.
Financially, everyone has adifferent feeling about it.
Some people love to rent and they feelmore comfortable and they can sleep at
night by renting and knowing that someoneelse can deal with this other big thing or

(38:15):
installing the glass in the front window.
I don't have to do that.
The HVAC went down.
That's not part of my.
Lease or it is or whatever, however that'swritten in but I think financially you
could probably save some money becausesometimes these rents and leases are
just crazy And when it's like really youcould just buy it you probably cut the
price in half, you know by paying Youknow a commercial mortgage or whatever.

(38:36):
How much did you pay for your first cafe?
I think this property here Was like16, 17, 000, but you got to think too,
there was it was a different time.
It was years ago now, and this placeneeded a lot of love, a lot of love.
This building that we're in today,it, it was like pretty run down,

(38:57):
but I say the way it was, the way itlooked, if you put it in a Bay area,
depending on the location, it couldhave been over a million dollars for it.
And it would have beenconsidered a teardown.
We did the same with green plantation, butas listeners know, I did sell the brand
last year, but I kept the real estate.

(39:17):
My thinking was if I pay rent for aplace like we, we actually purchased, I
would pay like 800, 900 euros a month.
That would be the rent.
And then we did a calculation that , ifwe buy a property of similar size we
can get a 10 year loan from the bank.

(39:37):
At that time, the interestrates were like 1%, 1.
5%.
So that was really sweet.
And we're going to pay 1200euros a month, but in 10 years,
the real estate will be ours.
So for me, That was like I alreadypaid that 1200 euros and in 10
years, the rest of it will be ours.

(39:58):
And that's what exactly happened.
Like I did not want tosell Green Plantation.
That was not my plan.
It was one day I maybe I'lltalk about in a podcast.
It was a whole random situationwith my business partner.
He just burned out and said, I don'twant to see coffee in my life again.
I'm like, wait, what kind of situation?
Now.
I have my last payment in February.

(40:19):
After that, the real estate is mineand it's right now worth around
300, 350, 000 euros, I would say.
And I have a great tenant,so it was worth it.
It still generates, it's goingto generate money for me.
And yeah, the tenant is not payingmy mortgage, so it's sweet or low.
If I would ever start a businessagain and it makes similar sense

(40:40):
that I can basically pay it off.
And next time, and it's very similarto the rent, I think it makes
sense to own your real estate.
But yeah, a lot of people havea different idea about it.
I have a friend that hedoesn't want to buy at all.
I've found buildings for him.
He's I just don't want, I don'twant, I don't want to own it.
I just want, I want a lease.
I'm like, okay, I think it's weird,but maybe it, maybe he sleeps

(41:01):
better at night knowing that.
And that's fine.
It's also about your end goal,like you will retire one day.
I know you guys are super young, you don'tthink about it but I actually started
to think how is my life going to looklike after I'm 50, which is very soon.
So I'm like, do I want toreally retire at 65 or 67?

(41:25):
And there was a world with a brokenknee and, I already have pains, man.
It's I don't know.
Oh yeah.
I want to do that a littlebit sooner in my life.
Having that real estate now that enablesme that the fact that I sold my company
that enables me that I can actually,maybe retire at 55 if I want to, I still
have a kid at high school once she's.

(41:46):
Gone, she goes to college, me and my wife,we can decide what we're going to do next.
I can continue doing what I'm doing.
Why not?
But I have the options.
So that's why I like theconcept of the real estate.
And I understand that if you're buyingsomething in San Francisco and it's
almost impossible oh, I don't know.
Somebody has to do themath, whether it's worth it.
Do you guys own yourother real estate too?

(42:07):
. Yeah.
We own our second location outright.
And then we also own the buildingthat we roast in as well.
Sweet.
Yeah, okay.
It's interesting.
Don't listen to other people.
Don't listen to us.
I think you should do your math,but it's what's going to happen once
I'm done with my business, right?

(42:27):
We're happy with the purchase.
So we also, we have a bunch of space too,if you need some storage or anything, you
come to Cincinnati, we'll take care of
always rent it out to you,
Yeah, sure, man.
Maybe I should open a lab inCincinnati and train your competition.
I really do like your idea ofa co roasting space because I
just talked to a friend of mine.
She's also in the coffeeindustry, Jodi Wieser.

(42:49):
She's a trainer and they arethinking to start something in,
in Austin, Texas with co roasting.
And I think the co roasting is agreat idea because there's a lot
of people who have passion forroasting and I want to try it out for
themselves without big investment.
Why not?
So I'm happy that the coroasting place are popping up
Yeah.

(43:09):
And from another standpoint you havethis expensive piece of machinery that
is only making you money one day of theweek, like for us right now, because
I only roast one day out of the week.
So then you have six more days to,to fill the schedule out, to just
continue to get cash flow in there.
And then from a logistical standpoint,I feel like all you'd really have
to do is just have someone in therebabysitting the machine just to make sure

(43:32):
that whoever is paying you to use it.
Is actually taking care of the machine.
They're not beating it up.
They're not punching it.
They're cleaning it properly.
And it's just sortingout cleaning schedules.
So you're not, yeah, not fightingthe machine or boxing it or
tackling it, playing soccer with it.
I would not rent out my productionmachine Colin, simply because if

(43:56):
that's down, your business is down,but having other machines there.
Why not?
And it's, it can be affordable if youcut a good deal with these people,
because for them, it's also showroom.
Like I tell you one thing thatpeople who go to Coro here in
Berkeley, and they're also Lorings.
They want Lorings they grow out ofthe space at some point , they either

(44:18):
fail and they say, this is not for me,or they stay there for a longer time.
And they do it as Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And Some people grew out ofthe space because simply they
started to produce a lot.
They, they catch on, theirbrand is doing great.
So they are not goingto buy Probat or Giesen.
They roasted their profiles.
Everything is done on Loring'sand they're going to do Loring's.

(44:39):
The brands who will realize this,I think will do pretty well.
I consider this as a consultation,so I'm sending you invoice for this.
So get the invoice inthe mail, sort it out.
Cool.
All right, I have one more questionabout roasting , it's mostly about
your portfolio, so what do youguys offer and how do you decide

(45:01):
what you put in your portfolio?
Yeah.
Coffee wise the cafe lineuplike that we use every single
day is pretty, pretty standard.
We have our espresso blendsour drip blend and then decaf.
So those are the only three coffeesthat we currently brew in the shop.
Both of the two blends, they'rejust a 50, 50 mix right now.
Of just coffee, we've sorted outand then the decaf we, we sort

(45:22):
out, it's a, it's just a, anethyl acetate decaf from Columbia.
And then we have one single origin.
We have a, we have one single originthat right now we rotate through.
But we're still new, we'restill fresh to the game.
So we're just trying to get ourbearings ducks in a row until we can
actually have a couple of differentsingle origins on the shelf that
do continually sell and everything.

(45:43):
So just easing into that game.
Cause we do sell a good amount of theblends and a good amount of decaf.
And then on top of that, weutilize it in the cafe pretty
consistently and quite a bit of it.
So if we ever don't sell a bag if it'slike a week off roast, I can always
just chuck it in the hopper and itstill tastes incredible as espresso.
So for the Ferrari Bros blend, whichis like what we call our espresso

(46:05):
blend it's a wash Guatemalan.
And then right now it'sa natural Colombian.
The Guatemalan, it's like an allwomen's cooperative in Hoi Tonango.
And then the natural portion of itright now is a natural katora from Elkin
Guzman of El Mirador in Huela, Colombia.
It's incredible.
Elkin's a rock star in my eyes.
Really cool guy.

(46:25):
He's really into biodynamicfarming and stuff.
He like harvests yeasts off theproperties that he has his farms
on and uses that to like cultureyeasts to then ferment the coffees.
So he has really goodwash, really good naturals.
And then he does have a lot of funkyexperimental coffees that we really
value because in the espresso blend withit being 50 percent natural, we want

(46:46):
to make sure that fruit really punchesthrough in the cup because we're very
like, we'd like the coffee bright.
We love acid.
So we'd like it to.
Push through, like poke throughthe coffee and his natural couture,
just has that perfect amount offunk where it's not overwhelming.
Like you don't have to let thecoffee air out for 20 minutes.
It's very fresh.
It's fruity.
And then the Guatemalan adds thatchocolatey like more dense body that you

(47:10):
would typically expect in an espresso.
I'm in love with our espresso blend.
Dialing it in as a breeze coffeesare very similar in density that
we currently have in the blend.
So for training the staff todial it in, it's really nice.
It's a very predictable, very.
When you make a change, it's likegoing to go the way you want it to.
It's not going to throwyou for a loop or anything.
The drip line we callwake it up, shake it up.

(47:32):
Because Teresa, who is the mom of momand him, Tony and Austin's mother.
Growing up, she would flicker thelights in their bedroom or yell
from the bottom of the stairs.
She'd yell, wake it up, shake itup if they were late for school.
So even to this day, if she doesn't havea cappuccino in the morning and she's just
like running behind, she's in the weeds.
She'll be like, man, I gotto wake it up, shake it up.

(47:52):
So she'll then say,wake it up, shake it up.
And she'll be like, man, Ineed to get some coffee in me.
So naturally we figured the best namefor the drip blend would be wake it up,
shake it up, because she says it almostevery single day, just being goofy.
And then that one is it's adifferent Guatemalan or yeah
wash Guatemalan community lot.
That one's a co op of Ithink 20 or 30 farmers.

(48:14):
So it's a bit smaller and then thethe washed Ethiopian side of it.
It's a Saddam.
I think it's like Bishan Deemu right now.
So that, that's just addsa little stone fruitiness.
It's both washed.
So it's not really in your face.
It goes well with cream without cream.
And then that Guatemalan alsodoes add a little more body to it.
So if you are putting cream in it, itdoes hold up, holds a lot of flavor to it.

(48:36):
You can actually taste the coffee.
It doesn't just taste like milk.
And then, yeah, if you drink itblack it's got nice complexity.
It's nice medium bodied, and then yeah,our decaf I'm in love with we cupped
I think 20 or 30 different decafs andthat was the one that consistently
was on the top of our blind cuppings.
Yeah it's wild.
So yeah I freak out about ourdecaf cause I love it so much.

(48:57):
I'll have like my two cups of coffeein the morning and then I'm like,
all right, it's time to go to decaf.
You have to send me some because I neverhad I usually do Swiss water process.
But with solvents, Inever had a good decaf.
So I'm really curious.
It's really nice.
I enjoy it.
And then I had it as, as espressofor the first time at one of one
of our wholesale accounts just liketwo weeks ago and it blew my mind.

(49:18):
It was, I think it's the bestdecaf I've ever had, but.
I'm sure there's better ones outthere, but to me, a not typical decaf
drinker, I was freaking out about it.
I couldn't stop talking about it.
And then yeah, and then our single originright now, it's it's also by Elkin Guzman.
We're on the tail end of it,but we're going to just have
a rotating single origin.
The one we have currently isit's a striped red bourbon.

(49:41):
It's a natural cold ferment.
Just really bright.
I roasted super light good acid to it.
Almost like cherries, pomegranateand like toasted sugar.
It's just, it's crazy.
I drink it for drip most morningsbefore I come into work and it's
just like a little heaven in the cup.
I'll poke into your espresso.

(50:01):
Can I?
Yeah.
kudos to you.
It sounds very interesting.
But boy, cost of thatespresso must be high.
Really high.
the current iteration is a littleexpensive, but for us, we're
really just pushing for bringing areally quality product to people.
Because they can be a qualityproduct without going crazy.

(50:25):
And and and the reason why I, normallyif you're in Europe, I would say, yeah,
that's great, but I don't have it inyour shop, but I did tally you up how
many espressos people order in a cafe,and it's always milk based beverages.
So basically, using this beautiful,really beautiful blend, that sounds

(50:46):
to me great, I would have to tasteon it of course, but it sounds
really beautiful, on milk beverages.
Is that correct, or dopeople order espressos?
Yeah we serve quite a few espressos buteven in milk based beverages like lattes,
just the the natural process Colombianthat's in there does, you can even taste
the fruit in a latte, like a 10 ouncelatte, which is the largest size we serve.
You can still taste a bit of the fruitpunching through like it's exceptional.

(51:08):
It's crazy.
My favorites in a cappuccino.
I know Austin loves his Gibraltars.
And in that just you get likethat nice chocolatey, like feel,
and then the finish, you justhave all this like brightness
like just explode on your palate.
It's a, it's wild, but thecost is a little bit higher.
We've been working around findingalternatives and the next iteration
will be a little bit cheaper, butstill, it's like a crazy ferment that's

(51:32):
going to be in there 50 50 that wewere able to get large quantities of.
No, now I really have to go and visit youguys and taste on it because I'm curious,
Cheap flights from San Francisco out here.
200 bucks trip.
sure.
Just the time is the issue,but yeah, I know you are on my
bucket list, so that's settled.
Yeah, for sure.

(51:54):
Austin, you are a seasoned entrepreneur.
You started multiplebusinesses in the food realm.
Do you have any tips for people whowant to embark on similar journey?
I think first and foremost make surethat you're passionate about what you do.
Before you consider anything elsebecause so many people get into

(52:16):
these projects and these ideas today,especially more today than ever.
And they just do it because of what theysaw on Instagram or Facebook or something.
And they think it's cool andthey're like, Oh my God, I've
always dreamed of owning a bakery.
And.
It just makes me laugh because none ofthese people are actually passionate

(52:38):
about it, you know They don't actuallyshow up ready to enjoy the day for the
work that they do I don't know whatbrings them passion, but they should
chase what makes you happy, right?
If you want to be a scientist go doit, if you want to build cars go do it,
but if it's baking bread I hope you'rereally happy about it and don't go home

(53:00):
at the end of day And bitch and screamabout how your day was terrible, because
it's it shouldn't be like that, right?
You have one life And you might aswell do something that's going to
bring you joy at the end of the day.
So that, I think that's my firstthing for anybody going into that
coffee or restaurant, food, wine,or making, harvesting honey.

(53:23):
Whatever it is make sureyou're really happy doing it.
Second is Just being ready to work,I think a lot of people go into this
and they always take that Nine tofive job kind of thing realm to it.
They're like, oh, I'm gonna build myown business It's super easy and they're
like, I'm gonna go home five live my lifeand I think a lot of this takes time to

(53:47):
get to that, place And I guess a littlebit of what I mentioned before but a
lot of people compare You know, they'relike, Oh, I really want, I've had people
come to me and to my brother as well.
And they said, Oh, I really want thelife that you guys have, like you guys
are, you guys have cars, you have aDucati, and you have a house and it's
yeah, but it took forever to get here.

(54:09):
It's been a long time.
It's been a long road.
I didn't just wake up yesterdayand just start making coffee.
You know what I mean?
And not only is it just this toowe do other things on the side
that we enjoy as well, right?
It's not just this, I think passionand just being ready to do what you're
ready to do, and outside of that too,just, being comfortable with numbers
and You know how to make money how tosell how to how to recruit how to market

(54:34):
Hospitality how to talk to people.
I think if you're an introvert you'regoing to a coffee business or a restaurant
business It's going to be really tough.
I would say personally but otherpeople might think differently.
I'm just this is my opinion Youhad to navigate certain situations
how to talk to people how to managepeople It's really, it's tough,
none of the, none of this was easy.
I think if it was, and I guess everyonewould do it and everyone tries to do

(54:57):
it and a lot of them don't succeed.
That's why either San Francisco has the.
Every month they have a closure list.
How many places close this month, right?
And San Francisco, I wonder why,so yeah, just being smart with
that, being smart with finances andhow to use things a certain way.
And, I think something that.

(55:18):
My, my brother's super big on is likea waste, like not trying to waste
anything, stop throwing things away.
How do you use thingsonce, twice, three times?
It's and instead of just throwing it allaway, a lot of stuff gets thrown away and
it's just sad and that could be product.
It could be food.
It could be coffee.
It could be materials time.
Yeah.
It's like, how do you not waste?

(55:39):
That's another one.
That's a huge element, right?
What should we be focusing on andhow can we focus on it, right?
What do we really need?
At the end of the day, we need money.
We need sales, right?
Bring people through the doorto buy more cups of coffee.
How do we do that, and specificallyfor this kind of business, like coffee
shop, restaurant, all that stuff.
It all ties into the same realm, right?

(56:00):
Yeah, I'm very happy that youelaborated after the passion on
other things too, because I have alot of students who come and they
have a lot of passion for roasting.
Like a lot and they come to the businesscourse because let's say they have a
profession they're not happy with and theywant to start to those and then they ask
me, but I really don't like social media.
Is that important for starting acoffee business or other questions?

(56:24):
I really don't like to be salesy.
Is that important tostart a coffee business?
And I'm like, yeah, thepassion is not enough, man.
If you hate social media, don't evenstart a business in this day and age.
Just not possible.
There must be exceptions, you are in thisocean of similar businesses and exceptions

(56:46):
are like, gems on the bottom of the ocean.
It's it's happens rarely.
So get ready to, put yourself outthere, be salesy and salesy being like
a smart way being sales because youcannot go and knock on doors like, Hey,
buy my vacuum or buy my coffee, right?
That doesn't roll anymore.
Maybe in fifties.
And I don't know, Colin, maybe you canvouch for this, but that was the course

(57:06):
about, and it's I teach you, that's easy.
I make you a good roaster.
That's a no brainer for me.
Maybe it takes me longer orshorter depending on the students
with Colin, that was easy.
It took 30 seconds.
No, I'm kidding.
But it's, you already had some knowledge,you already had some experience.
So yeah, but I'll make you good roaster.
I'm not sure if I can make youa good coffee entrepreneur.

(57:29):
So that's what I like when youconnected that passion, which will
give you drive to the shitty days.
So it's yeah, economically we're notdoing great, or I, I'm not achieving
my goals, but hey, I love what I'mdoing because that's my passion.
But on the other hand, you have tohave that entrepreneurship in you,
otherwise you're not going to make it.

(57:51):
And I'm very sad to see that, I startedthis course, the coffee business course,
like two and a half years ago, and I havefirst success stories, but I also have my
first, I gave up kind of stories, whichpains me, it pains me, but I understand.
And I think it's better to do somethingwhich fulfills you more than keep, poking

(58:13):
at something which is maybe not for you.
That's like my wholephilosophy on is life is short.
A hundred years, if you're lucky,you're going to, you're going to live
on planet earth and you're spending18 of that in school, assuming
you don't go to school after that.
And then what do you have 52,62 years to, to work and find a
passion and find a calling and makeyourself successful from there.

(58:34):
And if you're spending those yearsdoing something that you loathe
and you hate, if you're working ata desk job, making a lot of money.
All the money you have isn't goingto be fulfilling because you're
hating your life every single day.
So why not make money, be successful,and be in a position where you are happy.
So when you do leave work, you are happy.
And when you are passionate about it, youwill leave work at the end of the day.
Oh, today was stressful,but tomorrow's a new day.

(58:56):
It's a fresh start.
It's going to be even better.
I'm going to make it better.
I'm going to do what Ican to make it better.
Mostly people fall in love withroasting , as Colin said, and I also
say in the beginning of the course,it's like you're taking these hard
seed of a coffee cherry, which if youthink about it, it's just a seed, it's
nothing, it's like a little rock andyou, with the magic, you create this

(59:19):
beautiful beverage, you roast that coffeeand create this it's It's fascinating.
I love roasting.
I can see that people who come tothose courses are the same and they
think that, oh, I discovered the world.
I discovered this magic and Iwant to utilize it for my, this
passion I want to make into money.
But maybe you can work asa roster for a company.

(59:41):
Maybe you can keep it as a hobby.
Whatever, entrepreneurship is extra.
And I always say that if you wantto start a roasting company is 80
percent to be a great entrepreneurand 20 percent to be a good roaster.
In the very beginning of thispodcast, I said, I know very let's
say not enthusiastic roasters.
Who sell more product than one of thebest rosters I've had in my course.

(01:00:05):
So yeah, it's unfortunate,but that's how it works.
And that that, that's why I think that ourcourse is a bit different because, I try
to make people, I wake up cause I alwayssay, I, these stories, one was a guy.
Who worked for his father in lawin in development here in Bay area.
He loves roasting.
He came to the course.
We did the Wednesday.
We have the whole, this exercisewith how much money you want to make

(01:00:27):
and how much, what it will entail.
And, play with numbers.
And the guy was like, Oh man, I think Istill, I'm going to stay with my father
in law, cause the math didn't add up wheredo you see guys yourself in five years?
I know Colin wants to workfor Boot Coffee, so yeah.
No, I'm kidding.
So where do you guys seeyourself in five years?
I'll be teaching a latte artcourse there once a month.

(01:00:48):
They're gonna fly me out there from Cincy.
Willem Will.
Yeah, Willem will.
Do you want like individuallyor just as a business?
As a business.
Yeah.
I see us being where we are today,but a little more growth being
consistent, still offering, deliciousbeverages, hospitality, food.

(01:01:14):
Maybe it feels a little different.
Maybe it tastes a little different.
But we've continued on to thatpath of success that's where we
got us to, to today, of course,like we love to see growth.
I love to see numbers double.
I love to be able to offer more tothe staff, higher wages, healthcare
things of that nature, but I hopeto continue what we created, and to

(01:01:40):
still be, maybe one of the best inthe city, and that's the hardest part.
Is that once you get called somethingor named something, it's like,
how do you stay at that level?
And so in 15 years, all I hope for isjust to continue that path to success.
I really don't, I'm not hoping to offer amillion thousand different drinks or how

(01:02:02):
many syrups we can create in our head.
I just hope to make sure thatwe're consistent and we're still
acquiring new customers, newguests, new subscriptions, and we're
continuing to keep those as well.
The ones that we've already had for sure.
From a roasting perspective, just oneof the big things for me for 2024 is

(01:02:24):
just to get all my systems in place,expand, kind of work on a business,
find wholesale accounts, and likereally connect with them more so
than just I'm selling you coffee.
I want it to be more like it's my role andmy duty to help provide the training and
expertise to brew the coffee that I roast.

(01:02:45):
Just as important as it is for thefarmer to make sure that it's fermenting
for 12 hours, or it's being shippedand sent out in a timely manner,
or just as it's my feedback to sendinformation back to the person I'm
buying it from, the green coffee.
So just for me, just, continue to tryand bridge the gap from the farmer to

(01:03:06):
the consumer and make the whole pathwaybetter and more honest and transparent.
And just make sure that people areenjoying the coffee, always asking
myself, what can I do better?
How can I improve the coffee?
And then just havinggrowth, just natural growth.
We don't want to force ourselvesinto anything too crazy.
But with it being a business, youhave to make money and we want

(01:03:27):
to make sure that we're growing.
To fulfill the shoes that we're tryingto put ourselves in, and then from
a cafe perspective, just in the nextfive years, just continue to hone in
the craft and make sure that we'reinvesting in both the community our
staff ourselves just to improve theproducts and improve everything.
It's only fair that you guyscan ask me a question because

(01:03:50):
I already asked you so many.
Do you have a question for me?
What is your next five years?
Look like
Whoa, whoa, firing back.
Ah, gosh, okay, I should ask this ahead.
Okay, I do have a plan.
As I said, I'm approaching my 50.
And as I said that my daughter isgetting slowly, out of high school.

(01:04:15):
So in two, three years, I, bothmy kids will be at college.
They started their own lives.
I'm thinking that slowlyI'll move from Boot.
And start to do my own things.
And what I mean by that, I don'twant to leave Boot as a trainer.
I still want to train there, but I alsowant to train other places on the world.

(01:04:37):
And that connect together with my wifewith travels, basically retiring a
way that I will create more courses.
Maybe write a book, maybe.
Do more content.
I don't know, but I do enjoy teaching.
I do enjoy meeting people, like youguys talking about business, talking
about life, talking about coffee.

(01:04:57):
So I want to continue doing that,but I want to connect it also with
my personal life, I would say.
So I can imagine myself going to ., Paris,do a course there and I have fun with my
wife and exploring, the city and stuff.
I also want to get good at biking.
It's a new hobby for me.
I, as you get again, older,you have to exercise more.

(01:05:20):
You have to be careful about your body.
And I hated exercise all my freaking life.
It just I, this was a, it was asomething I had to force on myself.
And now I found biking, whichis actually very natural.
I like it.
I geek out on that.
When I started, I thought thatit's a very affordable hobby.
You just need a bike,but oh my gosh, it sucks.

(01:05:40):
My budget, my fun budget,very fast, expensive, it's
as expensive as you make it.
So yeah it's other thing, which I try to.
get better at and maybe do some biketrips around Europe and stuff like that.
So
And money's meant to be spent.
That's true.

(01:06:01):
But also on the other hand, as youget towards the retirement age.
You want to make sure that youhave some savings and you have, and
you, you can have a quality life.
And, it's, I can retire now becauseour lifestyle is very frugal.
We are rice and beans with my wife.
We like to cook, so wedon't go out that much.
And we can even scale back if weneed to really, and we enjoy it.

(01:06:22):
It's not something like, Oh, wehave to suffer because I don't have
the newest, I don't know, whatever.
Or I don't, not, didn't go toa Chez Panisse twice a month.
So I'm like, Oh, gosh, what to do?
No, we don't, we are not like that.
Yeah, I want to spend more time in Europe.
So we have apartment in Budapest still.
So maybe spend some time there.
Same with some Francebecause I study French.

(01:06:42):
So why not?
People say the French people are arrogant.
I want to find it out formyself, which I don't think so.
And maybe Italy, right?
Italy has amazing food.
So yeah, I have a lot ofplans for the next five years.
We'll see how.
How that pans out.
But I still will teach at Boot.
I just maybe don't want tobe a campus director anymore.

(01:07:02):
We'll see.
We'll see how that goes.
Alright.
Thank you so much.
Before I let you go , let's tellpeople where can they find you.
What are your social media,websites, where they can buy
a coffee and stuff like that.
And then we have an Instagram account.
It's also at mom and em.
So it's M O M N E M coffee.

(01:07:23):
You
I'll put it in a show notes sopeople just can Go to the coffeeis.me
website, click on it, and it'lltake you to the right place.
Do you guys have TikTok?
No TikTok.
. Maybe in the future.
I fall into the rabbit holeof TikTok because of my
daughter and it's poison, man.
It's a poison.
I'm so addicted.
You can find coffees.

(01:07:44):
me on TikTok too.
It's not very active,but I'll improve on that.
All right, guys.
Thank you so much for joining ussharing your wisdom and have a good one.
Awesome.
Thank you, V.
We appreciate it.
Cheers.