April 15, 2025 • 32 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Brandon and Tom are joined by Mark Eade. Mark is a Mortgage Broker at Key Mortgage Partners from Burlington, Ontario, who's built his business with relationships from B and private mortgages. Mark is also apart of BFT Mortgage Investment Corporation, an investment and lending company designed specifically for mortgage lending (primarily residential mortgages). Their business model is focused solely on working with registered and licensed mortgage brokers in order to fund first and second residential and commercial mortgages in the Golden Horseshoe.
Mark is here to discuss: → How he got into mortgages, the difference between now and 2008, and how he builds client loyalty with "B" and private files. → Current bottlenecks on the "A" side like slow turn-around times & rates, TD's new set-up & lender disconnect, and the race to the bottom when it comes to broker compensation. → Using private deals to create personal wealth, how a broker can lend their own money, and Mark's MIC.
BFT Mortgage Investment Corp. Website: www.bftmic.com
Mark Eade's Email: mark@eademortgages.ca
***
TANGO ONTARIO
📧 Email Us → ontario@tangofinancial.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of
Commission Breath.
Brandon Love here with Tom
Moffitt.
And today we have a special guest,
Mark Ead.
We ran into Mark at the Be the
Better Broker event in Whistler.
And we realized that for years, we
had seen his sign downtownBurlington, stumbling out of the
bars there.
And we got chatting and learned a
little bit about his business.
And we've been planning on having
(00:21):
this follow up call since then.
So Mark, thanks for jumping on
with us.
Hey, thanks for having me, guys.
We've kind of put two and twotogether because you told us your
name.
Like, why does that name sound so
damn familiar?And yeah, it's like right down the
heart of Burlington, where we'refrom.
And it goes to show you like thepower of traditional advertising
still works.
Like that name popped into our
heads.
So we really wanted to have you on
today, Mark, because we had areally good discussion or a
(00:43):
conversation at Beat a BetterBroker event.
And we're chatting about how youdo both private business and you
also still stick on the A side aswell.
So we wanted to... pick your brainas to how you kind of got into the
private business and really nichedown into that and sort of the
pros and cons of each.
So why don't you just kind of give
us, the listeners, a bit of ahistory as to...
(01:04):
How you got into the industry andhow you started working on the
private side?Yeah, for sure.
So I got into the business inabout 06, 07.
I was graduating from universityand my dad had been a longtime
broker.
Quite frankly, one of the people
that worked for him is anunderwriter.
They got their dream job to gowork in an art gallery.
And fortunately, she left on, youknow, it was her dream job.
She was working there part time.
And they said, hey, will you be
(01:24):
the manager full time?And so he had an opening and I was
a university student graduatingwithout a job and said like, yeah,
no, I can I can do this.
And I hung around the office
during this.
summers and done some projects.
And so I was like, this soundskind of cool.
I had an economics degree.
So I figured, you know, why not?
It went from there.
And the world got really
interesting, really quick in termsof the 07, 08, 09, things just
sort of went from there.
If you can recall, you can recall,
(01:44):
like it was a bit ago, but likekind of like the feeling everyone
had back then in a way, because,you know, times right now are very
similar in terms of like everyonefeeling a bit uneasy with the
market.
Like, do you see a comparison
there?Or do you think this time it feels
a bit different?It feels different.
feels different.
I started in sort of I was
learning about lenders, and therewas all these B lenders doing
different things.
We had Wells Fargo doing no money
down with a 600 Beacon score, an 8.5 % rate with a 4 % fee.
(02:07):
And clients getting thosemortgages thought that was a great
deal, right?They were all excited.
And CMHC was doing no money downon a 40 -year AM.
And so I had the first year in thebusiness doing very few deals, but
mostly processing paperwork for mydad.
And then things all of a suddenchanged very quickly where like,
you know, again, I remember beingin a golf tournament, like
somebody's like exceeds out ofmoney.
And I was like, what do you meanexceeds out of money?
(02:28):
It's like, yeah, the U .S.
hedge fund shut them down.
And I'll never forget.
I had a purchase closing one day
with AIG was the default insurerat that time before they became
Canada Guarantee.
And it was the day they had
liquidity issues in the States.
And we were trying to get an
exception.
The lender couldn't get a hold of
anybody at AIG all day.
It was like, well, because they
were all.
(02:49):
meetings because literally they
were about to go broke in theStates.
So they couldn't commit toanything.
So anyway, in some ways it's verydifferent, but clients are asking
the same questions.
You know, what's my payment going
to be?How am I going to make this work
within my budget?And so I would say from the
lender's point of view, things arevery different, but from the
client facing point of view,things are very similar.
Yeah.
So often we look at like the
lender policies, we look at therates and we're looking at all of
(03:10):
these like high level, broad scopesort of things.
But really what matters to theclient is.
can I afford this monthly?Am I going to totally screw myself
over here?Or can I just do this and tread
water for a bit while thingshopefully smooth out?
And the client just lives in thatmonthly number.
The rest of that stuff, it's justsurface level for them.
I mean, I wasn't around it in 2008doing brokering, but I feel like
the fear is always going to be thesame.
(03:31):
It's like you said, the monthlypayment, what's going to happen to
my mortgage, my renewal.
But I feel like this was like a
slow progression of like thisuncertainty versus like back in
2008, it was like, all right, herewe go.
Like it just happened moresuddenly than what is going down
today.
And correct me if I'm wrong, Mark,
but that's just kind of how Ifeel.
Totally.
Like the asset -backed commercial
paper crisis literally showed upovernight.
And like AIG went from issuingpolicies being a huge company.
(03:52):
And like Bear Stearns stock wentfrom like $100 to zero in like a
week.
Like one of the biggest US
investment banks.
And again, that was in the US.
Merrill Lynch, I mean, everyoneloves the big short, like Street
Capital.
We were doing all kinds of stuff
on their variables, which was allbackhanded by Merrill.
After the movie came out, I waslike, yikes, you hope none of
those were my files.
The credit default swaps.
(04:12):
But we were very much caught intothat.
And it wasn't that our clientsstopped paying their mortgages.
It wasn't that our values wentdown.
It wasn't that the credit qualitywent to hell here.
It was just very much the productsand the access to those funds went
away very quickly.
Gotcha.
And like when you first entered inthe industry and went on.
your own.
Did you start doing private
business or was it on the A sidefirst?
It was a bit of everything.
(04:33):
was a bit of everything.
So my dad has this unique modeltoo.
And part of it is the area ofdowntown Burlington we're in.
We have good relationships with alot of lawyers and trustees and
accountants.
And so they're a really good
source of private business.
And so my dad positioned himself.
And then quite frankly, I followedup with him in terms of like, Hey,
you got a problem that you needhelp with?
Call me, like call me any point intime.
Here's my number, email me.
(04:53):
And so we made some inroads with a
couple of lawyers who had reallywell -established practices as
well as trustees and accountantsand financial planners so that
when they had a client in trouble.
We could sort them out.
We have got some really goodpartnerships that way.
And that was just sort of whatdrove the private side of the
business.
And we, quite frankly, charge
really low fees.
I know downtown Burlington, you
guys know where we are.
(05:14):
There's like, you know, five or
six brokerage shops within, youknow, a kilometer of us.
Our fees on a private are thelowest around.
And so part of it was, you know,our deal with our referral sources
is we're not going to gougepeople.
We're going to charge them, youknow, a fair rate for their credit
and income situation.
But we're really going to work.
to break the cycle.
We're really going to work with
(05:35):
them to solve their problems,whether that be them getting their
accounting organized, whether thatbe do a lot of works with paying
off tax arrears and creditcounseling and proposals and
bankruptcies.
And so that was the sort of deal
was to keep our cost to our endclients lower.
And that really worked well.
Yeah, I love that because you
build that trust that file afterfile, it just compounds.
that because you build that trustthat file after file, it just
(05:55):
compounds.
And also it gives you a nice
insulation.
We were just talking about this
earlier today about like a lot of.
Brokers, all their eggs are in the
realtor basket and they're feelingthe burn of that right now.
Whereas with you, you have thesedifferent referral sources.
So if the realtor market dries upa little bit, you still have the
accountants, the lawyers, thefinancial planners still sending
you that deal flow.
Absolutely.
And again, you know, they'remessier files.
(06:15):
They're more time consuming.
They're definitely not as
profitable in terms of like thenumber of hours, the number of
staff hours.
You know, one client, it's 113
pages of bank statements over thelast 12 months for, you know, 275.
thousand dollar mortgage like thatis not going to be the most
profitable file i do this monthbut you know i did his last
mortgage and i'm hoping to do thenext one and he's hoping to buy a
cottage in two years and soclients want that service and you
(06:37):
know we're working really closelywith the realtor working really
closely with the lawyer you knowuh we had to you know ask an
appraiser to rush a report andlike Yeah, those things go a long
way.
And so trying to keep a really
positive around our name is reallyimportant to us.
Yeah.
And I imagine you get a lot of A
business referrals just from likeworking with those types of
clients because they're going tohave friends and family that are
(06:58):
on the A side inevitably.
And they're going to rave about
what you did for them and holdingtheir hand.
And yeah, you look at the hourlyrate, it's likely going to be
lower on the private side with alot of these deals because
you're... working more hours andpossibly getting comped less with
the smaller mortgage sizes.
But yeah, I can see that being a
really good referral base.
And those clients are really loyal
because like, you know, they'vecome in and they've got a CRA
(07:19):
lien.
They've got a property tax
problem.
They've got, you know, a mortgage
arrears or some other guy that'ssticking them to them for a giant
renewal fee.
And, you know, you can put that
deal together.
They're no longer rate shoppers
when we get them, you know, a yearfrom now back to the trust
companies, a couple of years fromthen, you know, back to the credit
unions and a couple of years fromthem.
back to the banks.
Again, the idea is it's a lot of
files over a long period of time.
(07:41):
And again, they don't forget that
you sort of bailed them out.
Yeah, I like that because you're
focused more on the lifetime valueof the client.
That was always one of my thingswhen I was first getting going was
like, I would do like the $70 ,000mortgage.
I remember we had a coach at thetime and he's like, why are you
wasting your time on that?I'm like, because you don't know
that this person three years fromnow might be a 300 ,000 file or
(08:02):
they might connect me to fourfriends or the realtor might be
grateful.
And that kind of mindset, it did
have that compounding effect whereI got business from taking these
files that other people were justsaying, oh no, it's too small.
It's not worth my time.
going to get paid less than I
would at McDonald's for this file.
It doesn't matter.
Just service the client.
Think about the lifetime value of
them, their network, therelationships you're going to grow
there.
And just, you know, it's hands -on
files.
(08:22):
The more you do, the more
experience you get, the better youget anyways.
Absolutely.
And again, like I was lucky enough
to be starting out too right at auniversity where like I charged
500 bucks on that deal and I wasthrilled to make 500 bucks, right?
Like I didn't have a mortgage, youknow, live with a couple of
buddies, you know, so that Ireally got into that stuff.
And again, our fees are really lowon that.
So the clients see that so thatyou're not.
perpetuating the cycle and workingwith them to say, hey, so you've
got to pay off this credit card.
(08:44):
We're going to clean up this
judgment, you know, to get youorganized.
So when your first mortgage doescome up a year from now, remember
that the bank didn't help you out.
And that's really how we've grown
that side of things.
What would you say the percentage
of your files are private and Bversus A?
I would say right now, it'sprobably 20 % private, 10 % B, 70
% A. A is still sort of the breadand butter of what we do.
Because again, it pays the bills.
And again, the private stuff is
(09:04):
really what I'm using as a wealthcreation tool in terms of like,
okay, lending my own funds, mypartner in a MEC.
You know, that sort of side ofthing is what's going to really
help me grow.
And that's the more exciting
stuff.
You know, again, once people have
been at this, I mean, for 10years, you know, you can take an
application in your sleep.
I was talking to another broker
this morning.
They're like, why aren't you using
FileLogix Pro?It's like, I'm really good at
(09:24):
FileLogix, no matter what thesystem is, just because I've got
so many hours in front of it.
I can take that app and manipulate
it in my sleep.
So same with the private side.
I like those files because they'reinteresting.
They're not the same.
They're always different.
So I think that to me sort ofkeeps my brain engaged.
It's not just collecting anemployment letter and a pay stub
on an ADL.
Yeah, I find sometimes like when
(09:45):
you get... too much of one thingyou get very good at it which is
nice but it does get a little likegroundhog day which can be really
great for certain things likeyou're consistent in your
prospecting like ryan says grabyour lunchbox and go to work and
you know what your day is going tolook like your paychecks are all
pretty much the same it'sconsistent that way but i do find
my brain i have like an adhd mindi get a little bored and i'm like
ah fuck this is getting old likewhen you get... too much of one
(10:07):
thing you get very good at itwhich is nice but it does get a
little like groundhog day whichcan be really great for certain
things like you're consistent inyour prospecting like ryan says
grab your lunchbox and go to workand you know what your day is
going to look like your paychecksare all pretty much the same it's
consistent that way but i do findmy brain i have like an adhd mind
i get a little bored and i'm likeah fuck this is getting old And
(10:29):
then I start to wander intodifferent side quests and projects
and stuff like that, where it'slike throw a complicated file in
there once in a while.
I was going to say one of your
side quests, speaking of what Markwas talking about with lending
your own funds.
I remember you called me one day,
like, I've got this great idea,man.
We niche into the private and westart lending our own funds.
It's going to create this likeother side business.
I would love that personally, butit's this other thing that you
have to build out.
And I think you already had that
stable base of private dealscoming in that it just made more
sense for you to.
open up that opportunity to lend
your own funds, I imagine.
Absolutely.
And again, you know, in theory,you've done this and done it 100
times, you should be able to pickthe good ones.
And some of it is, you know, yougot to start with the small ones,
right?Like, you know, somebody calls me
for a $600 ,000 private, I don'thave that much money.
But I've got the 30s and the 50sand the 70s to do on that sort of
(10:53):
stuff.
And again, also using that money
to reposition deals to be able tosay yes, say yes quickly and to
execute them quickly has becomehuge in terms of solving people's
problems.
to then say, OK, this is going to
be a two -step dance.
And so we're going to do this
really short term while we solvethis other problem.
And then the answer is we'll beable to get you to a new mortgage.
And whether that might be goingfrom a TD mortgage to, say, a
First National Excalibur or a hometrust mortgage, but getting it all
(11:15):
wrapped up and making thatpayment, as we talked about
earlier, manageable is really bigin terms of the market.
yeah for sure those side questslike tom kills them all now so i
don't get to go on too many butthere is something there for sure
so hypothetically if brandon and iwanted to go that route what is
like somebody for sure those sidequests like tom kills them all now
so i don't get to go on too manybut there is something there for
sure so hypothetically if brandonand wanted to go that route what
(11:36):
is like the setup process for abroker to lend their own money?
It depends on how you want to doit.
depends on how you want to do it.
We do our self -directed stuff
with Olympia Trust and EverettTrust.
So you can do self -directedmortgages as far as like TFSAs and
RSPs.
It's also a way, quite frankly, to
do some light syndication in termsof two people can partner on a
(11:56):
deal if they both have funds atOlympia Trust.
We do a lot of work with them justin terms of making the back end.
They do the accounting, theycollect the payments.
So definitely recommend someonelook at a platform.
like that.
And again, it's not something you
can dive into overnight whereyou're going to go and raise
funds.
If you're willing to raise funds
from investors, the OSC getsinvolved and it becomes very
difficult and very expensive andvery legalistic.
(12:16):
The way we've done it is much moreorganically in terms of our MIT
doesn't advertise.
We have a website, but essentially
the website is just so people canGoogle us and find us.
But we have a physical presence.
It's not over the office of
Burlington, it's in Hamilton, butwe have it.
And our investors get paid everymonth and word of mouth.
And quite frankly, we've beenreally lucky to find some really
good partners.
in that.
And we all have our own niches andwe quite frankly work really well
together.
And so it's really helped to
expand all our networks.
And Mark, feel free to say the
name of your mix.
So it's BFT, Mortgage Investment
Corporation, BFT group ofcompanies founded by Brent
(12:37):
Coleman, you know, more than 20plus years ago.
He actually had another mortgagebroker who was a tenant of his.
And, you know, that brokercouldn't place a $30 ,000
mortgage.
And he said to, you know, Brent,
hey, you've got lots of money.
Do you want to do this investment?
And Brent being the accountant,you know.
Went through the due diligence,didn't exactly know what he was
looking at, but it sort of allmade sense to him.
When the second month's interestcheck cleared and he was like,
(12:58):
this is the greatest thing ever.
This is way better than
calculating payroll by hand thathe did back then.
And so, yeah, he started off onthat way and we sort of joined
forces.
But yeah, having the ability to do
that stuff.
We also stick to our local market.
So in terms of private stuff,we're in Burlington, Hamilton.
That's the market I know.
We're not lending our own funds on
a condo at Young and Eglinton.
That's just not my market, right?
(13:19):
Same sort of thing.
I don't know a lot about the
Ottawa market.
I know it's a good one.
I know it's stable.
But so we sort of stick to lending
in our niche of the world, in ourarea, where we can be pretty
confident on values.
We can be pretty confident on what
we're lending on in terms ofquality.
We can pretty easily put eyes onit and know exactly what we're
doing.
And so we're not trying to hit
(13:39):
home runs.
We're trying to hit a lot of
singles.
Yeah, is way better that's nice,
too, because you can just hop inyour car and go drive by and be
like, OK, is this a total shitholeor is this going to be a good
property?Versus you get out there and
you're like, I'm just going totrust the appraiser or trust the
realtor.
And there's a lot of things that
can go wrong there.
Absolutely.
And again, especially beforeGoogle Street View, I mean, Google
Street View has made us all lazyin terms of you can see what the
(14:00):
neighbors are doing.
But yeah, back when I started,
like I remember definitely drivingto Brantford at one point in time
and being like.
No, I'm not doing this deal.
Like, have you seen the houseacross the street?
Again, like I didn't want to stopfor coffee in that neighborhood.
And so I wasn't going to do theloan on it versus I've definitely
done other ones where you go andyou look and you're like, yeah,
you know, I met the people, lookedin the eyes, they're going to pay.
(14:21):
Their income taxes might not beperfect, but, you know, you can
get a pretty good sense on peopledoing things that way.
It's definitely huge.
For sure.
That's a great point.
a great point.
I feel like if we were to go thatroute.
100%.
We would just focus on one market
because you can't know all ofthem.
And I can see the light bulb goingoff in your head right now,
Brandon.
If we're going to go that route,
that's all you.
That's not my jam.
I don't know how to set any ofthat up.
(14:41):
I'm fully focused on growing thebrokerage and the business.
I'm not taking on any projectsright now.
But I'm writing a book.
I'm writing a book.
No, I'm kidding.
Well, if you want to make some
investments, we're acceptingcapital.
So we're happy to manage it foryou.
Ah, there you go.
And that's the other side of
things is, you know, helpingpeople grow money and net worth.
And, you know, we've never missedan interest payment to an investor
ever in terms of that sort ofstuff is, you know, huge in terms
(15:01):
of helping people with funds andletting people feel safe with
their biggest assets.
And again, because I think we do
have a physical presence.
You know, we have offices.
We're not working out of ourbasement.
There's a large cost to runningthe square front we run in terms
of property taxes and upkeep andmaintenance.
But it is a footprint in thecommunity.
People know we've been here for 20years.
It really helps with that side ofthings.
Yeah, I remember when we werechatting.
This is actually ringing a bell.
(15:22):
You have, I think, two or three
separate locations.
And you did it that way, like
compliance -wise, too.
So like all of the making the
private deals get done in the onebuilding and process there, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
When I joined up.
with Brent and Tim to form BFT.
About eight or nine years ago,
Brent was running out of ourlawyer's office.
And so we continued that model andit just made sense even when we
had space in Burlington.
So we sort of run the private
(15:42):
stuff out of that one.
We've got our staff there.
And then sort of the business isrun out of our office at 620 Grant
Street.
You know, borrowers come here,
investors go there.
But it also says like, you know,
we have a footprint.
Partners and I were chatting with
chat most days.
And again, a new investor that had
been referred to him.
And it's like, hey, they know your
office.
And they're like, oh, actually
like he worked with my dad.
(16:02):
So it's having those physical
locations that have a presence inthe community that, you know,
essentially, yeah, we keep themseparate from compliance.
Our lawyers in our office, whichreally helps us move private deals
quickly.
That really helps too.
And so that's the other thingthat's really made our stuff done.
And we keep our admin costs crazylow compared to a lot of other
lenders.
So it lets us, you know, have a
good.
return while keeping our costs
well in check.
Nice.
And what's the return like rightnow, Mark?
(16:23):
On our MIG stuff, we pay a flat 8% in terms of that sort of stuff.
We land first at 9 and 10 secondson the MIG and stuff, mostly 10
and 11.
We also don't chase the 13, 14 %
yields.
You know, somebody tells me, hey,
I can get 14 % on a secondmortgage.
I tell them, oh, sorry, that's notfor us.
Just in terms of, I don't want tobe in collection.
I want to have enough equity thatif the deal goes south.
(16:43):
Somebody can take us out.
So we try and do the good stuff.
And again, it's also what makes usmoney.
And that is not having debtcapital.
If you look at private side, youknow, it's much better to earn 9 %
every day of the week than toearn, you know, 12 % and then be
sitting in cash for two months.
So that's the other thing that
we've done.
And so we haven't tried to chase
the credit curve.
We've tried to, you know, almost
have a better quality book ratherthan a higher returning book.
(17:07):
Following the model of much morelike a fizz guard compared to a
lot of other privates that aretrying to do like the 12 to 14
percent.
And some of the other ones, too,
like renewal fees.
We upped our renewal fees last
year from one to two percent.
But at that point in time, most
(17:28):
other privates were into like a 4% renewal fee, 3 or 4.
And so we upped our fees.
Second mortgage, we were 10 %
interest rate, 2 % lender fee.
For the longest time, we've now
gone to probably almost an 11 and3 model.
But 11 and 3 is still pretty cheapcompared to a lot of other stuff
we do.
Our loans are totally open.
Pay us out at any point in time.
Yes, we don't flex through my
(17:49):
penalties in terms of that doeshurt our yield a bit for sure, but
it really helps our borrowers.
So the answer is, you know, if
you're a broker sending us a dealon the private side, you know, I'm
not contacting your client.
We have a separate admin business.
Look out for that stuff.
But also, like, if you can get
their credit fixed and six monthsfrom now, take them back to their
current lender, do it.
You know, work that deal as hard
as you can.
(18:10):
And so that's really let us have a
good maturity level.
Not that we don't want to have
longtime clients who always pay ontime because we do, but we want to
get clients back from our space,you know, in the B space and back
to the prime side, because that'swhere they can save money and
quite frankly, make money to do itall again.
3 or Yeah.
Nice.
I like that.
Do you have a minimum?
(18:31):
threshold for investmentsrequired?
We do.
And we take money during a couple
of different ways.
We take money in terms of we sell
preferred shares in our mortgageinvestment corporation.
We have an administrator'slicense.
So I'm the broker of record forthe administrator's license in
Ontario, where we do what we callpartnering with mortgages.
So we essentially are able to havetwo parties do the mortgage
together.
One owes our MEC and then bring
another investor in.
So it lets us do some both bigger
(18:52):
deals and some smaller deals.
Due to essentially the OSC rules,
we have to play an exempt marketdeal.
to approve all our investors.
So it's credited investors only.
The minimum really turns intoabout $100 ,000 on that stuff.
We do just work on some Olympiastuff for some smaller amounts for
families or friends, or we've gota couple of people we help out on
some smaller end stuff.
But yeah, really not chasing that
stuff.
We don't want to be one of those
(19:12):
guys that puts 30 investors intoone $200 ,000 deal.
That's an administrativenightmare.
That sounds like a nightmare.
Yeah.
We're also crazy clean on thecompliance side of things.
So we keep a very tight shop thatway.
So let's transition to the A side.
let's transition to the A side.
We talked about private.
I'm curious, like what kind of
complications or any likebottlenecks that you're seeing on
the A side today?Like what are you coming across
that?is a bit of a pain.
What is a bit of a pain?Right now it's turnaround times
(19:34):
and rates.
So for example, TD has launched
their new stuff, but they were mybiggest lender last year on the A
side, probably because they dobigger dollar value files and
we're also getting more incomeexceptions.
They have slowed right down.
Rate -wise, they've taken
themselves out of the gameintentionally, but that's really
hurt us.
We've got a long history with
Scotia, do a lot of Scotiabusiness.
And Pierre is an amazingunderwriter on the BRM side.
However, he is incredibly busy.
(19:54):
He works from eight to six.
I will testify that he is, but weare slow right now.
We're probably 10 days on thatsort of stuff.
And so we've got some bottlenecksthat way.
On the B side, we're really seeingpains on bank statement deals.
We try and put a very organizedfile together very quickly for
lenders on that stuff.
But how long it's taking lenders
to review bank statements, which,again, you want to talk about the
(20:16):
worst job in the mortgageindustry.
I'm an underwriter reviewing bankstatements for deposits for funds
going in and out.
So we do a lot of due diligence on
that stuff, but getting that stuffdone quickly, because again, an
approval on a bank statement deal,it's not like, hey, I'm holding
the T4.
Here's how much money they made.
It's like, well, my interpretationof the bank statements can be
different than yours.
We're really seeing pain points
(20:36):
around document fulfillment.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I think that's a commontheme with Scotia right now.
It's all season.
Everything about them are great,
except for the speed is alwayspainful.
We have a rockstar BRM as well.
And like we know he's working
Saturday, Sunday.
He's nonstop going, but it's just
can never catch up.
They don't allow, from my
understanding, them to haveassistance or any support staff
within the model.
So it creates a lot of bottlenecks
there.
Something that if we're listening,
they should change.
(20:57):
It totally does.
And also like being a VRM, likethat's a senior model.
I don't want to date Pierre, buthe's been around for a while and
he really knows his credit and theskill set there of being able to
work with the credit risk groupand get tough deals approved is a
crazy skill set.
And so it takes the cream of the
crop on the underwriting side, notjust at Scotia, but it does take
(21:17):
somebody that's got a lot ofexperience and a lot of banking
knowledge, just not on the creditunderwriting side, but sort of
greater bank knowledge tounderstand those.
Yeah.
So we've definitely seen the pain
points.
Hopefully TD's back in there, you
know, new rate sheet and that sortof stuff is getting organized.
We're excited.
We're doing some work with BMO.
They're growing right now withleaps and bounds.
But yeah, the numbers too havejust not worked for first national
(21:39):
or big first national supporters.
But yeah, it's been really hard
with them.
They knew last year was a tough
year for them pricing wise.
You know, it's really hard to make
money as a model line on a two,three year term, but that's what
made sense for the client.
So we did a lot of last year,
three year terms, social threeyear particular TD.
So we did a lot of those just tospread what made sense in terms of
best for it.
(21:59):
So lower comp, but again,
hopefully getting that client backout in three more years.
years.
We're having some luck with BMO
too right now, like in terms ofrates, they're being pretty
competitive.
Manulife too, we've been in the
mix with them.
So we're happy there.
And from like a... perspective onthe new setup that TD has?
Are you kind of happy with howthey rolled that out?
(22:21):
Like, do you like that new model?Quite frankly, frankly, to be
honest with you, I got to buy anew version of Excel because I
can't make the rate sheet work.
I'm not the only one apparently
who's doing that.
So I did the webinar three times,
but I still can't make the Excelsheet work.
I'm interested to see how the mathworks in terms of that sort of
stuff.
And again, it's sort of a
differentiator.
We hate losing deals back to the
branch.
And that was always a theme at TD.
(22:43):
Scotia never seems to have thatproblem, but we'd always have a
deal or two a year that TD.
you know, the branch would
undercut us.
Or I had a deal last year that I
got it approved, even the buy-down.
And, you know, somebody at TDsaid, oh, I can do better than
your broker.
So they asked me to cancel the
file.
And it's like, okay, so like I'm
being asked by my TDDRM to cancelthe file.
(23:03):
And it's like, yep, so it can comeback in and somebody else can get
paid on it.
Like, that's a tough pill to
swallow.
So yeah, TD doesn't ever seem to
have been able to sort thoseproblems out as an organization.
So that's always been a painpoint.
Yes.
I haven't really done a deep dive
myself.
Our underwriter attended the
training.
I did hear from someone that the
guaranteed pay, if you have a dealthat went in first, they aren't
honoring that anymore, apparently.
And I could be wrong on that, but
(23:23):
I feel like they're goingbackwards on that piece, on that
side of things, which I didn'tlike hearing, but yeah, nothing
you can do.
And to me, they've never honored
that because again, they wouldcome to you and like, you'd have
an approval and they'd ask you tocancel it.
So the branch could do it, youknow, and the branch would promise
the client a lower rate and a freeappraisal and all that stuff.
So that's the ongoing problemsthat sort of we've always had with
(23:45):
TD.
And again, I'm a TD Bank client,
but yeah, we've always had thatsort of ongoing problems versus
Scotia seems to have a much morebetter partnership with their
branches in terms of we don't seemto have those issues as far as
branches stepping on toes and usall looking well.
And I feel like BMO really learnedfrom that.
And again, hopefully BMO has gotthat sorted out because, yeah, I
think they realized that, youknow, when those deals go south,
it's the one.
to 100, but we all look bad on it.
And it puts a bad taste in yourmouth for a while, for sure, as a
(24:07):
broker.
Because again, that client
relationship, that realtorrelationship is a lot more
important than getting paid onthat.
And I'm a little worried that TDis making it a race to the bottom.
I heard it's essentially, how lowwill you go?
It's a buy down, it's lesscommission.
But again, if you're just lookingat the next broker, the next BRM
being on it for a lower amount,that doesn't work.
It's going to be interesting forsure.
Exactly.
That was my concern when I heard
it rolled out.
I heard it rolled out.
And I was like, ah.
(24:27):
I can see like some of the
advantages of this, but it'sultimately going to end up costing
us.
a lot of money because we're going
to be buying down.
Someone else is going to say, I
can do this.
And then all of a sudden it's
like, do you want to broker for 35basis points?
And I'm like, I know my model.
It's not sustainable to do that.
I'm not trying to be the next RonButler, but certain people, maybe
(24:51):
they'll do a bunch of volume thatway.
Who knows?We'll have to see how it all
shakes out.
I do think BMO learned from it.
And I think there's definitelyroom in the industry for a lot of
the lenders to start to learn fromeach other a little bit more.
I don't know why they don't.
borrow and steal from each other
more in terms of what works andwhat we say we like.
A lot of it seems to fall on deafears there.
Oh, my goodness.
my goodness.
(25:11):
So TD puts out a new rate sheetthat only works in one version of
Excel.
Like, do you really think that no
broker works on Google Sheets orno broker works on a Mac?
But, yeah, if you're a TD bankemployee holding your TD business
card up, the answer is, of course,I work on this version of Excel.
It's the version the bank gets me.
I don't have to buy a computer.
I don't have to pay rent.
So, yeah, I'm interested to see
(25:32):
what that happens, what thebacklash on the broker side is on
the TD rates.
But they had to do something to
create some parity.
And we've seen it.
Over the years, it's the samestory of the enclosure first line.
What did that deal cost them topay the broker?
So the broker made 110 beeps, butthen they got these reward points,
and they got these basis points tobuy down other deals, and then
they got this volume discount, andthen we took them on a trip, and
(25:53):
what was the total cost of thatadds up for the bank.
And I think as times get leaner,it's going to be interesting to
see what happens.
So TD, they need the broker space,
but they hate the broker space interms of what they want to do
versus a branch, as well as asales force.
When we were at DC, I'm like, allthese lender parties that probably
cost them like 100 grand, allthese different trips, all these
different things.
I'm like, just give me a lower
rate.
Like, I would rather just have a
(26:14):
lower rate and comp and run mybusiness and not go to any of
these events.
Not to say I don't like a good
party, but I'd rather run mybusiness with better things to
give my clients.
Yeah.
And my answer is like, don't throwme a party.
Find my underwriter or phone.
I offered to buy every lender a
phone at different points andtimes.
I literally got an offer to buypeople a phone to call me back.
Like, hey, do you have an addressI can ship a phone to you?
(26:36):
It's my bad joke.
Like, literally, I don't need the
party.
I need, you know, four more people
chasing documents.
And it's great that we're going to
have these big high -levelconversations and work through big
things with those events and howto make our businesses better.
But then you come back to theoffice and you're like, OK, but I
just need to get the underwriterto review this appraisal.
Well, they're being pulled in 80other directions is, again, where
sort of the nuts and bolts hit theroad.
(26:57):
Speaking of parties, though, theone I want to talk about, you
know, you're an NPC in thosethings.
You know, you never meet yourunderwriters.
I mean, I love the First Nationalones in Toronto because, again,
like I go meet my underwriter.
I see my VRM.
I see the credit assistant.
You know, I love the fact that
First National does those a coupleof times a year.
And, you know, again, the wholelocal Toronto office comes out.
things go a long way.
And I, again, wish that, you know,
they'd learn from that.
First, I used to do an underwriter
(27:18):
appreciation.
We all go to Toronto and
essentially you get to say thankyou and have a glass of wine with
your underwriter.
I think that that relationship
side of working with lenders hasgone away during COVID.
And because the bank ends uppicking up the bill for it, they
just haven't come back.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
The biggest takeaway at MPC last
year was to be able to meet someof like Scotia as an example.
I mean, we met him before, but wegot to hang out with our BRM some
(27:40):
more and same thing with a coupleother.
lenders, like if they do more ofthat, I think that's helpful for
sure.
creating that relationship.
Absolutely.
And yeah, no, especially in the
work from home world where, youknow, you're not going to be
there.
It's good to put a name to a face.
And also like, again, at the endof the day, like there's a person
on the other side of that.
And, you know, when we used to do,
you know, 65 % of our businesswith First Line, or at one point
(28:01):
in time, we did a lot of businesswith Desjardins before they merged
into Meridian.
Like literally, we knew our
underwriter.
We knew what her birthday was.
We knew what she was having arough week.
You know, so again, we also knewwhen we could push them like, hey,
I need you to do this now.
We've lost a lot of those things.
things over time, which hasdefinitely made, I think, the
business harder in terms of thatsort of stuff.
Because again, at the end of theday, it's about relationships.
(28:22):
Getting that extra deal closedimproves everybody's
profitability, right?You know, again, having people
look at docs once, tell me how youwant them.
Tell me how you don't want them.
It just really speeds things up
and lets us all be more profitableas brokers, as lenders.
You know, there's efficiencies tobe gained for sure.
Yeah, I think that human elementneeds to come back.
And we were talking about this ina previous episode that I think
it's something that like we'retalking about today, but I think
it's something that people craveacross the board.
Like I talked to underwriters andthey're like, ah, like MPC, like I
(28:45):
don't get to go.
I don't get to meet anyone.
We're like, yeah, like actuallyyou're the one we would want to
meet with.
Like we don't really care to hear
about another policy from so -and-so or another little like.
George St. Pierre.
I don't give a shit about George
St. Pierre.
I'm going to make a meeting with
my operator, learning somethingthat's going to actually benefit
my business.
Just be cool, man.
Come on.
The message is like...
Hopefully being heard and peoplewill start to bring it back a bit
(29:07):
because I think everyone iscraving that and the industry does
need it.
For sure.
And like, again, I mean, I hateportals because, you know,
everyone's got one.
I realize there's security around
documents and stuff, but you can'tadd notes to it.
You know, you can't circlesomething.
You can't put a star beside it.
Hey, I hope you had a great
weekend, you know, in terms ofthat sort of stuff.
You need to start your email withwhen you're dropping docs into a
portal.
You know, again, you're turning
(29:28):
into a, you're right, a branchemployee who doesn't know anything
and doesn't know stuff and doesn'tknow about their client or about
their lender partner on the otherend.
And yeah, that just stuff goes along way.
Anything we should touch on, weshould touch on, Mark, before we
close it off?I mean, I would encourage every
broker getting into this to lendtheir own money and explore the
private side of things.
It's very profitable, but it's
also a good way to save forretirement in terms of that sort
of stuff.
And again, it's a side of the
(29:49):
business that's never going to goaway.
The banks are never going to beable to do some of those wacky
things that you know make sense.
But from a compliance point of
view, you're never going to getthrough a bank or a deposit taking
institution that can providereally good return.
for clients, both as investors andas borrowers.
That's a good point.
a good point.
It's recession -proof, like noteven recession.
You know where things are headingin the A space with banks, like
that's always going to be aroundin my opinion.
So I couldn't agree more.
(30:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, it's local knowledgebecause I can't do my business in
DC because I don't know thelawyers, the appraisers, who you
can trust, who you can't trust.
It's sort of creating your own
market niche.
Well, Mark, thank you for coming
on today and sharing some of yourwisdom with us.
It was great to catch up again andlook forward to running into you,
probably downtown Burlington, buthopefully at other events as well.
That's exactly it.
Yeah, we probably will get an
airplane and see each other againrather than around the corner.
(30:32):
But yes, it's great to catch up,guys, and have a great weekend or
a day.
Thanks, Mark.
Take care.
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of
Commission Breath.
Brandon Love here with Tom
Moffitt.
And today we have a special guest,
Mark Ead.
We ran into Mark at the Be the
Better Broker event in Whistler.
And we realized that for years, we
had seen his sign downtownBurlington, stumbling out of the
bars there.
And we got chatting and learned a
little bit about his business.
And we've been planning on having
(00:21):
this follow up call since then.
So Mark, thanks for jumping on
with us.
Hey, thanks for having me, guys.
We've kind of put two and twotogether because you told us your
name.
Like, why does that name sound so
damn familiar?And yeah, it's like right down the
heart of Burlington, where we'refrom.
And it goes to show you like thepower of traditional advertising
still works.
Like that name popped into our
heads.
So we really wanted to have you on
today, Mark, because we had areally good discussion or a
(00:43):
conversation at Beat a BetterBroker event.
And we're chatting about how youdo both private business and you
also still stick on the A side aswell.
So we wanted to... pick your brainas to how you kind of got into the
private business and really nichedown into that and sort of the
pros and cons of each.
So why don't you just kind of give
us, the listeners, a bit of ahistory as to...
(01:04):
How you got into the industry andhow you started working on the
private side?Yeah, for sure.
So I got into the business inabout 06, 07.
I was graduating from universityand my dad had been a longtime
broker.
Quite frankly, one of the people
that worked for him is anunderwriter.
They got their dream job to gowork in an art gallery.
And fortunately, she left on, youknow, it was her dream job.
She was working there part time.
And they said, hey, will you be
(01:24):
the manager full time?And so he had an opening and I was
a university student graduatingwithout a job and said like, yeah,
no, I can I can do this.
And I hung around the office
during this.
summers and done some projects.
And so I was like, this soundskind of cool.
I had an economics degree.
So I figured, you know, why not?
It went from there.
And the world got really
interesting, really quick in termsof the 07, 08, 09, things just
sort of went from there.
If you can recall, you can recall,
(01:44):
like it was a bit ago, but likekind of like the feeling everyone
had back then in a way, because,you know, times right now are very
similar in terms of like everyonefeeling a bit uneasy with the
market.
Like, do you see a comparison
there?Or do you think this time it feels
a bit different?It feels different.
feels different.
I started in sort of I was
learning about lenders, and therewas all these B lenders doing
different things.
We had Wells Fargo doing no money
down with a 600 Beacon score, an 8.5 % rate with a 4 % fee.
(02:07):
And clients getting thosemortgages thought that was a great
deal, right?They were all excited.
And CMHC was doing no money downon a 40 -year AM.
And so I had the first year in thebusiness doing very few deals, but
mostly processing paperwork for mydad.
And then things all of a suddenchanged very quickly where like,
you know, again, I remember beingin a golf tournament, like
somebody's like exceeds out ofmoney.
And I was like, what do you meanexceeds out of money?
(02:28):
It's like, yeah, the U .S.
hedge fund shut them down.
And I'll never forget.
I had a purchase closing one day
with AIG was the default insurerat that time before they became
Canada Guarantee.
And it was the day they had
liquidity issues in the States.
And we were trying to get an
exception.
The lender couldn't get a hold of
anybody at AIG all day.
It was like, well, because they
were all.
(02:49):
meetings because literally they
were about to go broke in theStates.
So they couldn't commit toanything.
So anyway, in some ways it's verydifferent, but clients are asking
the same questions.
You know, what's my payment going
to be?How am I going to make this work
within my budget?And so I would say from the
lender's point of view, things arevery different, but from the
client facing point of view,things are very similar.
Yeah.
So often we look at like the
lender policies, we look at therates and we're looking at all of
(03:10):
these like high level, broad scopesort of things.
But really what matters to theclient is.
can I afford this monthly?Am I going to totally screw myself
over here?Or can I just do this and tread
water for a bit while thingshopefully smooth out?
And the client just lives in thatmonthly number.
The rest of that stuff, it's justsurface level for them.
I mean, I wasn't around it in 2008doing brokering, but I feel like
the fear is always going to be thesame.
(03:31):
It's like you said, the monthlypayment, what's going to happen to
my mortgage, my renewal.
But I feel like this was like a
slow progression of like thisuncertainty versus like back in
2008, it was like, all right, herewe go.
Like it just happened moresuddenly than what is going down
today.
And correct me if I'm wrong, Mark,
but that's just kind of how Ifeel.
Totally.
Like the asset -backed commercial
paper crisis literally showed upovernight.
And like AIG went from issuingpolicies being a huge company.
(03:52):
And like Bear Stearns stock wentfrom like $100 to zero in like a
week.
Like one of the biggest US
investment banks.
And again, that was in the US.
Merrill Lynch, I mean, everyoneloves the big short, like Street
Capital.
We were doing all kinds of stuff
on their variables, which was allbackhanded by Merrill.
After the movie came out, I waslike, yikes, you hope none of
those were my files.
The credit default swaps.
(04:12):
But we were very much caught intothat.
And it wasn't that our clientsstopped paying their mortgages.
It wasn't that our values wentdown.
It wasn't that the credit qualitywent to hell here.
It was just very much the productsand the access to those funds went
away very quickly.
Gotcha.
And like when you first entered inthe industry and went on.
your own.
Did you start doing private
business or was it on the A sidefirst?
It was a bit of everything.
(04:33):
was a bit of everything.
So my dad has this unique modeltoo.
And part of it is the area ofdowntown Burlington we're in.
We have good relationships with alot of lawyers and trustees and
accountants.
And so they're a really good
source of private business.
And so my dad positioned himself.
And then quite frankly, I followedup with him in terms of like, Hey,
you got a problem that you needhelp with?
Call me, like call me any point intime.
Here's my number, email me.
(04:53):
And so we made some inroads with a
couple of lawyers who had reallywell -established practices as
well as trustees and accountantsand financial planners so that
when they had a client in trouble.
We could sort them out.
We have got some really goodpartnerships that way.
And that was just sort of whatdrove the private side of the
business.
And we, quite frankly, charge
really low fees.
I know downtown Burlington, you
guys know where we are.
(05:14):
There's like, you know, five or
six brokerage shops within, youknow, a kilometer of us.
Our fees on a private are thelowest around.
And so part of it was, you know,our deal with our referral sources
is we're not going to gougepeople.
We're going to charge them, youknow, a fair rate for their credit
and income situation.
But we're really going to work.
to break the cycle.
We're really going to work with
(05:35):
them to solve their problems,whether that be them getting their
accounting organized, whether thatbe do a lot of works with paying
off tax arrears and creditcounseling and proposals and
bankruptcies.
And so that was the sort of deal
was to keep our cost to our endclients lower.
And that really worked well.
Yeah, I love that because you
build that trust that file afterfile, it just compounds.
that because you build that trustthat file after file, it just
(05:55):
compounds.
And also it gives you a nice
insulation.
We were just talking about this
earlier today about like a lot of.
Brokers, all their eggs are in the
realtor basket and they're feelingthe burn of that right now.
Whereas with you, you have thesedifferent referral sources.
So if the realtor market dries upa little bit, you still have the
accountants, the lawyers, thefinancial planners still sending
you that deal flow.
Absolutely.
And again, you know, they'remessier files.
(06:15):
They're more time consuming.
They're definitely not as
profitable in terms of like thenumber of hours, the number of
staff hours.
You know, one client, it's 113
pages of bank statements over thelast 12 months for, you know, 275.
thousand dollar mortgage like thatis not going to be the most
profitable file i do this monthbut you know i did his last
mortgage and i'm hoping to do thenext one and he's hoping to buy a
cottage in two years and soclients want that service and you
(06:37):
know we're working really closelywith the realtor working really
closely with the lawyer you knowuh we had to you know ask an
appraiser to rush a report andlike Yeah, those things go a long
way.
And so trying to keep a really
positive around our name is reallyimportant to us.
Yeah.
And I imagine you get a lot of A
business referrals just from likeworking with those types of
clients because they're going tohave friends and family that are
(06:58):
on the A side inevitably.
And they're going to rave about
what you did for them and holdingtheir hand.
And yeah, you look at the hourlyrate, it's likely going to be
lower on the private side with alot of these deals because
you're... working more hours andpossibly getting comped less with
the smaller mortgage sizes.
But yeah, I can see that being a
really good referral base.
And those clients are really loyal
because like, you know, they'vecome in and they've got a CRA
(07:19):
lien.
They've got a property tax
problem.
They've got, you know, a mortgage
arrears or some other guy that'ssticking them to them for a giant
renewal fee.
And, you know, you can put that
deal together.
They're no longer rate shoppers
when we get them, you know, a yearfrom now back to the trust
companies, a couple of years fromthen, you know, back to the credit
unions and a couple of years fromthem.
back to the banks.
Again, the idea is it's a lot of
files over a long period of time.
(07:41):
And again, they don't forget that
you sort of bailed them out.
Yeah, I like that because you're
focused more on the lifetime valueof the client.
That was always one of my thingswhen I was first getting going was
like, I would do like the $70 ,000mortgage.
I remember we had a coach at thetime and he's like, why are you
wasting your time on that?I'm like, because you don't know
that this person three years fromnow might be a 300 ,000 file or
(08:02):
they might connect me to fourfriends or the realtor might be
grateful.
And that kind of mindset, it did
have that compounding effect whereI got business from taking these
files that other people were justsaying, oh no, it's too small.
It's not worth my time.
going to get paid less than I
would at McDonald's for this file.
It doesn't matter.
Just service the client.
Think about the lifetime value of
them, their network, therelationships you're going to grow
there.
And just, you know, it's hands -on
files.
(08:22):
The more you do, the more
experience you get, the better youget anyways.
Absolutely.
And again, like I was lucky enough
to be starting out too right at auniversity where like I charged
500 bucks on that deal and I wasthrilled to make 500 bucks, right?
Like I didn't have a mortgage, youknow, live with a couple of
buddies, you know, so that Ireally got into that stuff.
And again, our fees are really lowon that.
So the clients see that so thatyou're not.
perpetuating the cycle and workingwith them to say, hey, so you've
got to pay off this credit card.
(08:44):
We're going to clean up this
judgment, you know, to get youorganized.
So when your first mortgage doescome up a year from now, remember
that the bank didn't help you out.
And that's really how we've grown
that side of things.
What would you say the percentage
of your files are private and Bversus A?
I would say right now, it'sprobably 20 % private, 10 % B, 70
% A. A is still sort of the breadand butter of what we do.
Because again, it pays the bills.
And again, the private stuff is
(09:04):
really what I'm using as a wealthcreation tool in terms of like,
okay, lending my own funds, mypartner in a MEC.
You know, that sort of side ofthing is what's going to really
help me grow.
And that's the more exciting
stuff.
You know, again, once people have
been at this, I mean, for 10years, you know, you can take an
application in your sleep.
I was talking to another broker
this morning.
They're like, why aren't you using
FileLogix Pro?It's like, I'm really good at
(09:24):
FileLogix, no matter what thesystem is, just because I've got
so many hours in front of it.
I can take that app and manipulate
it in my sleep.
So same with the private side.
I like those files because they'reinteresting.
They're not the same.
They're always different.
So I think that to me sort ofkeeps my brain engaged.
It's not just collecting anemployment letter and a pay stub
on an ADL.
Yeah, I find sometimes like when
(09:45):
you get... too much of one thingyou get very good at it which is
nice but it does get a little likegroundhog day which can be really
great for certain things likeyou're consistent in your
prospecting like ryan says grabyour lunchbox and go to work and
you know what your day is going tolook like your paychecks are all
pretty much the same it'sconsistent that way but i do find
my brain i have like an adhd mindi get a little bored and i'm like
ah fuck this is getting old likewhen you get... too much of one
(10:07):
thing you get very good at itwhich is nice but it does get a
little like groundhog day whichcan be really great for certain
things like you're consistent inyour prospecting like ryan says
grab your lunchbox and go to workand you know what your day is
going to look like your paychecksare all pretty much the same it's
consistent that way but i do findmy brain i have like an adhd mind
i get a little bored and i'm likeah fuck this is getting old And
(10:29):
then I start to wander intodifferent side quests and projects
and stuff like that, where it'slike throw a complicated file in
there once in a while.
I was going to say one of your
side quests, speaking of what Markwas talking about with lending
your own funds.
I remember you called me one day,
like, I've got this great idea,man.
We niche into the private and westart lending our own funds.
It's going to create this likeother side business.
I would love that personally, butit's this other thing that you
have to build out.
And I think you already had that
stable base of private dealscoming in that it just made more
sense for you to.
open up that opportunity to lend
your own funds, I imagine.
Absolutely.
And again, you know, in theory,you've done this and done it 100
times, you should be able to pickthe good ones.
And some of it is, you know, yougot to start with the small ones,
right?Like, you know, somebody calls me
for a $600 ,000 private, I don'thave that much money.
But I've got the 30s and the 50sand the 70s to do on that sort of
(10:53):
stuff.
And again, also using that money
to reposition deals to be able tosay yes, say yes quickly and to
execute them quickly has becomehuge in terms of solving people's
problems.
to then say, OK, this is going to
be a two -step dance.
And so we're going to do this
really short term while we solvethis other problem.
And then the answer is we'll beable to get you to a new mortgage.
And whether that might be goingfrom a TD mortgage to, say, a
First National Excalibur or a hometrust mortgage, but getting it all
(11:15):
wrapped up and making thatpayment, as we talked about
earlier, manageable is really bigin terms of the market.
yeah for sure those side questslike tom kills them all now so i
don't get to go on too many butthere is something there for sure
so hypothetically if brandon and iwanted to go that route what is
like somebody for sure those sidequests like tom kills them all now
so i don't get to go on too manybut there is something there for
sure so hypothetically if brandonand wanted to go that route what
(11:36):
is like the setup process for abroker to lend their own money?
It depends on how you want to doit.
depends on how you want to do it.
We do our self -directed stuff
with Olympia Trust and EverettTrust.
So you can do self -directedmortgages as far as like TFSAs and
RSPs.
It's also a way, quite frankly, to
do some light syndication in termsof two people can partner on a
(11:56):
deal if they both have funds atOlympia Trust.
We do a lot of work with them justin terms of making the back end.
They do the accounting, theycollect the payments.
So definitely recommend someonelook at a platform.
like that.
And again, it's not something you
can dive into overnight whereyou're going to go and raise
funds.
If you're willing to raise funds
from investors, the OSC getsinvolved and it becomes very
difficult and very expensive andvery legalistic.
(12:16):
The way we've done it is much moreorganically in terms of our MIT
doesn't advertise.
We have a website, but essentially
the website is just so people canGoogle us and find us.
But we have a physical presence.
It's not over the office of
Burlington, it's in Hamilton, butwe have it.
And our investors get paid everymonth and word of mouth.
And quite frankly, we've beenreally lucky to find some really
good partners.
in that.
And we all have our own niches andwe quite frankly work really well
together.
And so it's really helped to
expand all our networks.
And Mark, feel free to say the
name of your mix.
So it's BFT, Mortgage Investment
Corporation, BFT group ofcompanies founded by Brent
(12:37):
Coleman, you know, more than 20plus years ago.
He actually had another mortgagebroker who was a tenant of his.
And, you know, that brokercouldn't place a $30 ,000
mortgage.
And he said to, you know, Brent,
hey, you've got lots of money.
Do you want to do this investment?
And Brent being the accountant,you know.
Went through the due diligence,didn't exactly know what he was
looking at, but it sort of allmade sense to him.
When the second month's interestcheck cleared and he was like,
(12:58):
this is the greatest thing ever.
This is way better than
calculating payroll by hand thathe did back then.
And so, yeah, he started off onthat way and we sort of joined
forces.
But yeah, having the ability to do
that stuff.
We also stick to our local market.
So in terms of private stuff,we're in Burlington, Hamilton.
That's the market I know.
We're not lending our own funds on
a condo at Young and Eglinton.
That's just not my market, right?
(13:19):
Same sort of thing.
I don't know a lot about the
Ottawa market.
I know it's a good one.
I know it's stable.
But so we sort of stick to lending
in our niche of the world, in ourarea, where we can be pretty
confident on values.
We can be pretty confident on what
we're lending on in terms ofquality.
We can pretty easily put eyes onit and know exactly what we're
doing.
And so we're not trying to hit
(13:39):
home runs.
We're trying to hit a lot of
singles.
Yeah, is way better that's nice,
too, because you can just hop inyour car and go drive by and be
like, OK, is this a total shitholeor is this going to be a good
property?Versus you get out there and
you're like, I'm just going totrust the appraiser or trust the
realtor.
And there's a lot of things that
can go wrong there.
Absolutely.
And again, especially beforeGoogle Street View, I mean, Google
Street View has made us all lazyin terms of you can see what the
(14:00):
neighbors are doing.
But yeah, back when I started,
like I remember definitely drivingto Brantford at one point in time
and being like.
No, I'm not doing this deal.
Like, have you seen the houseacross the street?
Again, like I didn't want to stopfor coffee in that neighborhood.
And so I wasn't going to do theloan on it versus I've definitely
done other ones where you go andyou look and you're like, yeah,
you know, I met the people, lookedin the eyes, they're going to pay.
(14:21):
Their income taxes might not beperfect, but, you know, you can
get a pretty good sense on peopledoing things that way.
It's definitely huge.
For sure.
That's a great point.
a great point.
I feel like if we were to go thatroute.
100%.
We would just focus on one market
because you can't know all ofthem.
And I can see the light bulb goingoff in your head right now,
Brandon.
If we're going to go that route,
that's all you.
That's not my jam.
I don't know how to set any ofthat up.
(14:41):
I'm fully focused on growing thebrokerage and the business.
I'm not taking on any projectsright now.
But I'm writing a book.
I'm writing a book.
No, I'm kidding.
Well, if you want to make some
investments, we're acceptingcapital.
So we're happy to manage it foryou.
Ah, there you go.
And that's the other side of
things is, you know, helpingpeople grow money and net worth.
And, you know, we've never missedan interest payment to an investor
ever in terms of that sort ofstuff is, you know, huge in terms
(15:01):
of helping people with funds andletting people feel safe with
their biggest assets.
And again, because I think we do
have a physical presence.
You know, we have offices.
We're not working out of ourbasement.
There's a large cost to runningthe square front we run in terms
of property taxes and upkeep andmaintenance.
But it is a footprint in thecommunity.
People know we've been here for 20years.
It really helps with that side ofthings.
Yeah, I remember when we werechatting.
This is actually ringing a bell.
(15:22):
You have, I think, two or three
separate locations.
And you did it that way, like
compliance -wise, too.
So like all of the making the
private deals get done in the onebuilding and process there, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
When I joined up.
with Brent and Tim to form BFT.
About eight or nine years ago,
Brent was running out of ourlawyer's office.
And so we continued that model andit just made sense even when we
had space in Burlington.
So we sort of run the private
(15:42):
stuff out of that one.
We've got our staff there.
And then sort of the business isrun out of our office at 620 Grant
Street.
You know, borrowers come here,
investors go there.
But it also says like, you know,
we have a footprint.
Partners and I were chatting with
chat most days.
And again, a new investor that had
been referred to him.
And it's like, hey, they know your
office.
And they're like, oh, actually
like he worked with my dad.
(16:02):
So it's having those physical
locations that have a presence inthe community that, you know,
essentially, yeah, we keep themseparate from compliance.
Our lawyers in our office, whichreally helps us move private deals
quickly.
That really helps too.
And so that's the other thingthat's really made our stuff done.
And we keep our admin costs crazylow compared to a lot of other
lenders.
So it lets us, you know, have a
good.
return while keeping our costs
well in check.
Nice.
And what's the return like rightnow, Mark?
(16:23):
On our MIG stuff, we pay a flat 8% in terms of that sort of stuff.
We land first at 9 and 10 secondson the MIG and stuff, mostly 10
and 11.
We also don't chase the 13, 14 %
yields.
You know, somebody tells me, hey,
I can get 14 % on a secondmortgage.
I tell them, oh, sorry, that's notfor us.
Just in terms of, I don't want tobe in collection.
I want to have enough equity thatif the deal goes south.
(16:43):
Somebody can take us out.
So we try and do the good stuff.
And again, it's also what makes usmoney.
And that is not having debtcapital.
If you look at private side, youknow, it's much better to earn 9 %
every day of the week than toearn, you know, 12 % and then be
sitting in cash for two months.
So that's the other thing that
we've done.
And so we haven't tried to chase
the credit curve.
We've tried to, you know, almost
have a better quality book ratherthan a higher returning book.
(17:07):
Following the model of much morelike a fizz guard compared to a
lot of other privates that aretrying to do like the 12 to 14
percent.
And some of the other ones, too,
like renewal fees.
We upped our renewal fees last
year from one to two percent.
But at that point in time, most
(17:28):
other privates were into like a 4% renewal fee, 3 or 4.
And so we upped our fees.
Second mortgage, we were 10 %
interest rate, 2 % lender fee.
For the longest time, we've now
gone to probably almost an 11 and3 model.
But 11 and 3 is still pretty cheapcompared to a lot of other stuff
we do.
Our loans are totally open.
Pay us out at any point in time.
Yes, we don't flex through my
(17:49):
penalties in terms of that doeshurt our yield a bit for sure, but
it really helps our borrowers.
So the answer is, you know, if
you're a broker sending us a dealon the private side, you know, I'm
not contacting your client.
We have a separate admin business.
Look out for that stuff.
But also, like, if you can get
their credit fixed and six monthsfrom now, take them back to their
current lender, do it.
You know, work that deal as hard
as you can.
(18:10):
And so that's really let us have a
good maturity level.
Not that we don't want to have
longtime clients who always pay ontime because we do, but we want to
get clients back from our space,you know, in the B space and back
to the prime side, because that'swhere they can save money and
quite frankly, make money to do itall again.
3 or Yeah.
Nice.
I like that.
Do you have a minimum?
(18:31):
threshold for investmentsrequired?
We do.
And we take money during a couple
of different ways.
We take money in terms of we sell
preferred shares in our mortgageinvestment corporation.
We have an administrator'slicense.
So I'm the broker of record forthe administrator's license in
Ontario, where we do what we callpartnering with mortgages.
So we essentially are able to havetwo parties do the mortgage
together.
One owes our MEC and then bring
another investor in.
So it lets us do some both bigger
(18:52):
deals and some smaller deals.
Due to essentially the OSC rules,
we have to play an exempt marketdeal.
to approve all our investors.
So it's credited investors only.
The minimum really turns intoabout $100 ,000 on that stuff.
We do just work on some Olympiastuff for some smaller amounts for
families or friends, or we've gota couple of people we help out on
some smaller end stuff.
But yeah, really not chasing that
stuff.
We don't want to be one of those
(19:12):
guys that puts 30 investors intoone $200 ,000 deal.
That's an administrativenightmare.
That sounds like a nightmare.
Yeah.
We're also crazy clean on thecompliance side of things.
So we keep a very tight shop thatway.
So let's transition to the A side.
let's transition to the A side.
We talked about private.
I'm curious, like what kind of
complications or any likebottlenecks that you're seeing on
the A side today?Like what are you coming across
that?is a bit of a pain.
What is a bit of a pain?Right now it's turnaround times
(19:34):
and rates.
So for example, TD has launched
their new stuff, but they were mybiggest lender last year on the A
side, probably because they dobigger dollar value files and
we're also getting more incomeexceptions.
They have slowed right down.
Rate -wise, they've taken
themselves out of the gameintentionally, but that's really
hurt us.
We've got a long history with
Scotia, do a lot of Scotiabusiness.
And Pierre is an amazingunderwriter on the BRM side.
However, he is incredibly busy.
(19:54):
He works from eight to six.
I will testify that he is, but weare slow right now.
We're probably 10 days on thatsort of stuff.
And so we've got some bottlenecksthat way.
On the B side, we're really seeingpains on bank statement deals.
We try and put a very organizedfile together very quickly for
lenders on that stuff.
But how long it's taking lenders
to review bank statements, which,again, you want to talk about the
(20:16):
worst job in the mortgageindustry.
I'm an underwriter reviewing bankstatements for deposits for funds
going in and out.
So we do a lot of due diligence on
that stuff, but getting that stuffdone quickly, because again, an
approval on a bank statement deal,it's not like, hey, I'm holding
the T4.
Here's how much money they made.
It's like, well, my interpretationof the bank statements can be
different than yours.
We're really seeing pain points
(20:36):
around document fulfillment.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I think that's a commontheme with Scotia right now.
It's all season.
Everything about them are great,
except for the speed is alwayspainful.
We have a rockstar BRM as well.
And like we know he's working
Saturday, Sunday.
He's nonstop going, but it's just
can never catch up.
They don't allow, from my
understanding, them to haveassistance or any support staff
within the model.
So it creates a lot of bottlenecks
there.
Something that if we're listening,
they should change.
(20:57):
It totally does.
And also like being a VRM, likethat's a senior model.
I don't want to date Pierre, buthe's been around for a while and
he really knows his credit and theskill set there of being able to
work with the credit risk groupand get tough deals approved is a
crazy skill set.
And so it takes the cream of the
crop on the underwriting side, notjust at Scotia, but it does take
(21:17):
somebody that's got a lot ofexperience and a lot of banking
knowledge, just not on the creditunderwriting side, but sort of
greater bank knowledge tounderstand those.
Yeah.
So we've definitely seen the pain
points.
Hopefully TD's back in there, you
know, new rate sheet and that sortof stuff is getting organized.
We're excited.
We're doing some work with BMO.
They're growing right now withleaps and bounds.
But yeah, the numbers too havejust not worked for first national
(21:39):
or big first national supporters.
But yeah, it's been really hard
with them.
They knew last year was a tough
year for them pricing wise.
You know, it's really hard to make
money as a model line on a two,three year term, but that's what
made sense for the client.
So we did a lot of last year,
three year terms, social threeyear particular TD.
So we did a lot of those just tospread what made sense in terms of
best for it.
(21:59):
So lower comp, but again,
hopefully getting that client backout in three more years.
years.
We're having some luck with BMO
too right now, like in terms ofrates, they're being pretty
competitive.
Manulife too, we've been in the
mix with them.
So we're happy there.
And from like a... perspective onthe new setup that TD has?
Are you kind of happy with howthey rolled that out?
(22:21):
Like, do you like that new model?Quite frankly, frankly, to be
honest with you, I got to buy anew version of Excel because I
can't make the rate sheet work.
I'm not the only one apparently
who's doing that.
So I did the webinar three times,
but I still can't make the Excelsheet work.
I'm interested to see how the mathworks in terms of that sort of
stuff.
And again, it's sort of a
differentiator.
We hate losing deals back to the
branch.
And that was always a theme at TD.
(22:43):
Scotia never seems to have thatproblem, but we'd always have a
deal or two a year that TD.
you know, the branch would
undercut us.
Or I had a deal last year that I
got it approved, even the buy-down.
And, you know, somebody at TDsaid, oh, I can do better than
your broker.
So they asked me to cancel the
file.
And it's like, okay, so like I'm
being asked by my TDDRM to cancelthe file.
(23:03):
And it's like, yep, so it can comeback in and somebody else can get
paid on it.
Like, that's a tough pill to
swallow.
So yeah, TD doesn't ever seem to
have been able to sort thoseproblems out as an organization.
So that's always been a painpoint.
Yes.
I haven't really done a deep dive
myself.
Our underwriter attended the
training.
I did hear from someone that the
guaranteed pay, if you have a dealthat went in first, they aren't
honoring that anymore, apparently.
And I could be wrong on that, but
(23:23):
I feel like they're goingbackwards on that piece, on that
side of things, which I didn'tlike hearing, but yeah, nothing
you can do.
And to me, they've never honored
that because again, they wouldcome to you and like, you'd have
an approval and they'd ask you tocancel it.
So the branch could do it, youknow, and the branch would promise
the client a lower rate and a freeappraisal and all that stuff.
So that's the ongoing problemsthat sort of we've always had with
(23:45):
TD.
And again, I'm a TD Bank client,
but yeah, we've always had thatsort of ongoing problems versus
Scotia seems to have a much morebetter partnership with their
branches in terms of we don't seemto have those issues as far as
branches stepping on toes and usall looking well.
And I feel like BMO really learnedfrom that.
And again, hopefully BMO has gotthat sorted out because, yeah, I
think they realized that, youknow, when those deals go south,
it's the one.
to 100, but we all look bad on it.
And it puts a bad taste in yourmouth for a while, for sure, as a
(24:07):
broker.
Because again, that client
relationship, that realtorrelationship is a lot more
important than getting paid onthat.
And I'm a little worried that TDis making it a race to the bottom.
I heard it's essentially, how lowwill you go?
It's a buy down, it's lesscommission.
But again, if you're just lookingat the next broker, the next BRM
being on it for a lower amount,that doesn't work.
It's going to be interesting forsure.
Exactly.
That was my concern when I heard
it rolled out.
I heard it rolled out.
And I was like, ah.
(24:27):
I can see like some of the
advantages of this, but it'sultimately going to end up costing
us.
a lot of money because we're going
to be buying down.
Someone else is going to say, I
can do this.
And then all of a sudden it's
like, do you want to broker for 35basis points?
And I'm like, I know my model.
It's not sustainable to do that.
I'm not trying to be the next RonButler, but certain people, maybe
(24:51):
they'll do a bunch of volume thatway.
Who knows?We'll have to see how it all
shakes out.
I do think BMO learned from it.
And I think there's definitelyroom in the industry for a lot of
the lenders to start to learn fromeach other a little bit more.
I don't know why they don't.
borrow and steal from each other
more in terms of what works andwhat we say we like.
A lot of it seems to fall on deafears there.
Oh, my goodness.
my goodness.
(25:11):
So TD puts out a new rate sheetthat only works in one version of
Excel.
Like, do you really think that no
broker works on Google Sheets orno broker works on a Mac?
But, yeah, if you're a TD bankemployee holding your TD business
card up, the answer is, of course,I work on this version of Excel.
It's the version the bank gets me.
I don't have to buy a computer.
I don't have to pay rent.
So, yeah, I'm interested to see
(25:32):
what that happens, what thebacklash on the broker side is on
the TD rates.
But they had to do something to
create some parity.
And we've seen it.
Over the years, it's the samestory of the enclosure first line.
What did that deal cost them topay the broker?
So the broker made 110 beeps, butthen they got these reward points,
and they got these basis points tobuy down other deals, and then
they got this volume discount, andthen we took them on a trip, and
(25:53):
what was the total cost of thatadds up for the bank.
And I think as times get leaner,it's going to be interesting to
see what happens.
So TD, they need the broker space,
but they hate the broker space interms of what they want to do
versus a branch, as well as asales force.
When we were at DC, I'm like, allthese lender parties that probably
cost them like 100 grand, allthese different trips, all these
different things.
I'm like, just give me a lower
rate.
Like, I would rather just have a
(26:14):
lower rate and comp and run mybusiness and not go to any of
these events.
Not to say I don't like a good
party, but I'd rather run mybusiness with better things to
give my clients.
Yeah.
And my answer is like, don't throwme a party.
Find my underwriter or phone.
I offered to buy every lender a
phone at different points andtimes.
I literally got an offer to buypeople a phone to call me back.
Like, hey, do you have an addressI can ship a phone to you?
(26:36):
It's my bad joke.
Like, literally, I don't need the
party.
I need, you know, four more people
chasing documents.
And it's great that we're going to
have these big high -levelconversations and work through big
things with those events and howto make our businesses better.
But then you come back to theoffice and you're like, OK, but I
just need to get the underwriterto review this appraisal.
Well, they're being pulled in 80other directions is, again, where
sort of the nuts and bolts hit theroad.
(26:57):
Speaking of parties, though, theone I want to talk about, you
know, you're an NPC in thosethings.
You know, you never meet yourunderwriters.
I mean, I love the First Nationalones in Toronto because, again,
like I go meet my underwriter.
I see my VRM.
I see the credit assistant.
You know, I love the fact that
First National does those a coupleof times a year.
And, you know, again, the wholelocal Toronto office comes out.
things go a long way.
And I, again, wish that, you know,
they'd learn from that.
First, I used to do an underwriter
(27:18):
appreciation.
We all go to Toronto and
essentially you get to say thankyou and have a glass of wine with
your underwriter.
I think that that relationship
side of working with lenders hasgone away during COVID.
And because the bank ends uppicking up the bill for it, they
just haven't come back.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
The biggest takeaway at MPC last
year was to be able to meet someof like Scotia as an example.
I mean, we met him before, but wegot to hang out with our BRM some
(27:40):
more and same thing with a coupleother.
lenders, like if they do more ofthat, I think that's helpful for
sure.
creating that relationship.
Absolutely.
And yeah, no, especially in the
work from home world where, youknow, you're not going to be
there.
It's good to put a name to a face.
And also like, again, at the endof the day, like there's a person
on the other side of that.
And, you know, when we used to do,
you know, 65 % of our businesswith First Line, or at one point
(28:01):
in time, we did a lot of businesswith Desjardins before they merged
into Meridian.
Like literally, we knew our
underwriter.
We knew what her birthday was.
We knew what she was having arough week.
You know, so again, we also knewwhen we could push them like, hey,
I need you to do this now.
We've lost a lot of those things.
things over time, which hasdefinitely made, I think, the
business harder in terms of thatsort of stuff.
Because again, at the end of theday, it's about relationships.
(28:22):
Getting that extra deal closedimproves everybody's
profitability, right?You know, again, having people
look at docs once, tell me how youwant them.
Tell me how you don't want them.
It just really speeds things up
and lets us all be more profitableas brokers, as lenders.
You know, there's efficiencies tobe gained for sure.
Yeah, I think that human elementneeds to come back.
And we were talking about this ina previous episode that I think
it's something that like we'retalking about today, but I think
it's something that people craveacross the board.
Like I talked to underwriters andthey're like, ah, like MPC, like I
(28:45):
don't get to go.
I don't get to meet anyone.
We're like, yeah, like actuallyyou're the one we would want to
meet with.
Like we don't really care to hear
about another policy from so -and-so or another little like.
George St. Pierre.
I don't give a shit about George
St. Pierre.
I'm going to make a meeting with
my operator, learning somethingthat's going to actually benefit
my business.
Just be cool, man.
Come on.
The message is like...
Hopefully being heard and peoplewill start to bring it back a bit
(29:07):
because I think everyone iscraving that and the industry does
need it.
For sure.
And like, again, I mean, I hateportals because, you know,
everyone's got one.
I realize there's security around
documents and stuff, but you can'tadd notes to it.
You know, you can't circlesomething.
You can't put a star beside it.
Hey, I hope you had a great
weekend, you know, in terms ofthat sort of stuff.
You need to start your email withwhen you're dropping docs into a
portal.
You know, again, you're turning
(29:28):
into a, you're right, a branchemployee who doesn't know anything
and doesn't know stuff and doesn'tknow about their client or about
their lender partner on the otherend.
And yeah, that just stuff goes along way.
Anything we should touch on, weshould touch on, Mark, before we
close it off?I mean, I would encourage every
broker getting into this to lendtheir own money and explore the
private side of things.
It's very profitable, but it's
also a good way to save forretirement in terms of that sort
of stuff.
And again, it's a side of the
(29:49):
business that's never going to goaway.
The banks are never going to beable to do some of those wacky
things that you know make sense.
But from a compliance point of
view, you're never going to getthrough a bank or a deposit taking
institution that can providereally good return.
for clients, both as investors andas borrowers.
That's a good point.
a good point.
It's recession -proof, like noteven recession.
You know where things are headingin the A space with banks, like
that's always going to be aroundin my opinion.
So I couldn't agree more.
(30:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, it's local knowledgebecause I can't do my business in
DC because I don't know thelawyers, the appraisers, who you
can trust, who you can't trust.
It's sort of creating your own
market niche.
Well, Mark, thank you for coming
on today and sharing some of yourwisdom with us.
It was great to catch up again andlook forward to running into you,
probably downtown Burlington, buthopefully at other events as well.
That's exactly it.
Yeah, we probably will get an
airplane and see each other againrather than around the corner.
(30:32):
But yes, it's great to catch up,guys, and have a great weekend or
a day.
Thanks, Mark.
Take care.
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