April 16, 2024 • 50 mins
🎙Today on Conflict Managed we welcome Toby Mildon, Diversity and Inclusion Architect, business owner, podcast host of Inclusive Growth Show, and author.
Join us as we discuss:
🌐 The business case for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
💡 Building confidence
🚫 Addressing issues straightaway to prevent festering
🔍 Focusing on early adopters and innovators to bring about change
🎓 What could recent graduates teach your organization?
Conflict Managed is available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Toby Mildon is an Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Architect and the Founder of Mildon. Having previously worked at the BBC, Deloitte and Accenture, Toby has since delivered hugely successful programs for Sony, HarperCollins, Centrica, Mitchells & Butlers, and the NHS, as well as writing ‘Inclusive Growth’, an Amazon bestseller.
With both professional and lived experience, Toby’s mission is to shape diverse and inclusive workplace environments where everyone feels welcome, empowered, and given the opportunity to thrive. Toby doesn’t just consult; he partners with organizations to create bespoke strategies that go beyond superficial initiatives. Toby truly believes in the transformative power of inclusivity to drive innovations, attract the best talent, boost employee engagement, and elevate overall business performance.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by Merry Brown.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.
(00:24):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
Today on Conflict Managed we welcome Toby Mildon.
Toby is an equity diversity and inclusion architect and the founder of Mildon,
having previously worked at the BBC Deloitte and Accenture.
Toby has since delivered hugely successful programs for Sony, HarperCollins,
(00:44):
Centrica, Mitchells & Butlers, and the NHS as well as writing,
Inclusive Growth, an Amazon best seller. With both professional and lived experience,
Toby's mission is to shape diversity and inclusion,
workplace environments where everyone feels welcome,
empowered and given the opportunity to thrive.
Toby doesn't just consult,
(01:05):
he partners with organizations to create bestowed strategies that go beyond superficial initiatives.
Toby truly believes in the transformative power,
inclusivity to drive innovations,
attract the best talent boost,
employee engagement and elevate overall business performance.
Good morning,
Toby and welcome to Conflict Managed.
(01:26):
Thanks for inviting me along,
Merry.
It's lovely to meet you.
It's so lovely to meet you as well.
Well,
I'm delighted to have you on the show today and very interested to hear about your work in the area of DEI and helping people have better healthier work environments.
But before we get to that,
I would like to hear about your experiences and I want to hear about the first job you ever had.
(01:52):
So the first job I ever had was um for Lloyds Bank here in the UK.
Um It's one of our major banks,
High Street banks and it's quite an interesting story and it's one that I tell quite often as an example of inclusive leadership because I was from a quite a young age,
(02:14):
I was really eager to get into the workforce.
Um I was born with a rare neuromuscular disability which meant that I did have challenges in getting work experience like my friend,
unlike my friends,
because they were getting jobs um working in supermarkets and stacking shelves.
And I knew that I didn't have the physical ability to do that kind of role.
(02:37):
Um So I knew that I needed to do a,
a desk based or an office based job and I was receiving lots of rejections,
but then I made an appointment to open up a savings account at Lloyds Bank.
And then at the end of the meeting,
the bank manager said to me,
uh well,
is there anything else I can help you with?
And I said,
well,
it's funny you should ask.
Um I'd quite like a job,
(02:58):
please.
And to my surprise,
um he offered me work experience and I ended up working for Lloyds Bank on and off during my school and college uni university holidays for about three or four years.
Um but working for Lloyd's Bank looked fantastic on my CV.
And it was the stepping stone for me to work with some really amazing big well known brands.
(03:21):
Um but it,
if it wasn't for that one manager who n noticed my disability but saw through that and saw my potential that really accelerated my,
my career.
It is amazing what happens when we have that one person that sees us and um speaks into a cesar possibility.
(03:43):
So what was that first job like?
Was it like it,
you thought it was gonna be?
And,
and how was the management?
I really enjoyed it.
It was my first job.
I was about 15 or 16.
At the time I started off working in the back office in the branch.
I was processing business checks.
(04:04):
I was basically dealing with forms and that kind of thing,
but I was really eager to work on the front line and work with customers uh downstairs.
Um So I,
I spoke to the bank manager,
he supported that and I was then able to work as a customer service advisor in the branch.
(04:26):
Um you know,
working with customers advising,
you know,
answering their banking queries,
that kind of thing.
Um And again,
you know,
I mean,
by this time it was actually another manager.
Um and uh the,
the second manager was,
was as supportive and,
and inclusive,
inclusive as the first manager actually.
Um But he,
(04:47):
you know,
he enabled me to,
to do that role and it really boosted my confidence and made me feel like I was doing a,
a worthwhile job.
That's wonderful.
So what did you major in when you went to the university?
So I did marketing.
Um And then I haven't done any marketing since uh apart from now that I run my own consultancy company,
(05:10):
we do a lot of marketing.
I spend a lot of my time doing marketing.
Um But um yeah,
I,
I,
and it's funny,
I never did marketing as like a,
a proper job.
Um after graduating I,
I went straight into technology actually.
Um and uh yeah,
we worked in it and tech.
That is so interesting and,
and I like that you said,
you know,
(05:30):
you didn't do any marketing and yet as you,
as you reflect,
you do it all the time,
right?
Being a business owner is part of doing the business,
but so much of it is marketing so that you can do the work you want to do.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So why tech,
if I'm being brutally honest with you?
Um it was because it paid better.
(05:51):
Um So,
um yeah,
I mean,
you know,
I did my,
I did my undergraduate degree in marketing.
Um I was applying for various graduate jobs and um I was getting a lot of knockbacks as well.
I think some of that was to do with,
with being disabled,
if I'm honest,
um,
some of it,
(06:12):
you know,
wasn't.
Um,
but I ended up getting a job with accenture on their graduate program as an IT consultant and,
um,
worked for accenture for a number of years.
And after that,
I suppose I'd,
I'd kind of laid down my roots in,
in the tech industry,
(06:32):
um which led to just another tech role and another tech role.
And it wasn't until I was working at the BBC that I managed to do a career switch into divest and inclusion.
But it was more of a pivot because it was kind,
I was,
I,
I started off looking at diversity inclusion within the tech industry um or within the technology and engineering department at the BBC.
(06:53):
So I,
I was keeping 1 ft in tech and in 1 ft in diversity and inclusion.
So what led you to make that pivot?
Well,
again,
being brutally honest with you,
I,
I was getting a bit bored uh working on websites and apps.
Um And so II,
I kind of II,
I fell into it really,
(07:15):
I,
I used to work really closely with the chief operating officer of the Technology and Engineering Department and he was concerned with the rest of the senior leadership team about the,
the gender imbalance that we had in tech.
So the BBC at the time,
had a 5050 gender split.
But within my technology department,
(07:37):
I think it was about 14% of our workforce were women.
So the leadership team were worried about that and they created a plan to recruit more women into technology and engineering jobs and they needed a project manager to execute the plan.
And that's where I volunteered cos I,
I was a project manager at that time working on the projects like the redevelopment of the news website and the development of the,
(08:04):
the,
the BBC Sounds app.
Um So they needed a project manager,
but it was just,
it was in diversity and inclusion rather than an app or a website.
Well,
it's so interesting how we end up where we are.
It's these,
these steps along our career,
right?
And many times,
I think it's interesting the first job that we have like where it's at and the skills that we develop there.
(08:30):
And a lot of it also has to do with how we were treated,
how we felt.
Uh whether we were seen or you know,
how difficult or welcoming the environment was.
Is I love that you said you built confidence and so many first jobs have that opportunity to build confidence in us to see.
Oh,
I am capable,
I am contributing and of course sometimes and I don't like this,
(08:53):
like I don't want to be working in the back or as we go along our career,
we,
we do get bored.
Um And so we see,
well,
what do I want to be doing now?
And so now you have your business in de I,
can you tell us a little bit about that?
(09:14):
And I suppose I got itchy feet,
you know,
I wanted to do my own thing.
I'd always kind of had this dream of being a business owner or an entrepreneur.
I,
I'd found my thing at that point working in um Ed,
I,
and so um it was about,
it was just over five years ago that I set up my consultancy company.
(09:37):
Um And over the last 55 and a bit years,
it,
it's grown in terms of the number of clients that I work with has,
has grown.
I think I've now worked with over 100 different companies.
Um I have a team so we've got,
we've got a,
a team of uh five of us including me and um we're doing some really interesting projects.
(10:01):
So,
thinking about your own career,
what is the best experience you've ever had with another colleague or a boss?
And what was it?
That was so good about it for you.
The best manager I ever had was a guy called Mike uh or Michael and he uh at British Airways.
(10:21):
So I did an internship for British Airways for a year.
Um And I worked with Mike.
Um we were in the business development um department or the sales department of engineering.
So,
B A has got um hangars and engineers all over the world to fix aircraft.
(10:42):
Um They're not,
they don't,
they're not full to capacity all of the time.
So there is engineering capacity that B A can sell to other engineer.
Um Sorry to other airlines.
So our job was to sell this capacity to other airlines like Qantas or um you know,
United Airlines or that kind of thing.
Um But Mike was just an amazing manager and I think what made him amazing was that he just really empowered me to do my own work and gave me autonomy.
(11:15):
I wasn't,
I really don't like being micromanaged and,
and like Mike was the opposite of a micro manager,
but he was there to,
you know,
support me,
develop me um and help me um grow professionally.
So,
you know,
that is something that we most of us,
I mean,
very,
very few people actually want a micromanager,
(11:37):
we wanna be supported and encouraged to grow and develop.
So what are some specific things that Mike did that worked for you?
Um I think he just let me get on with it.
Uh So I was in charge of my day,
I suppose,
you know,
I,
I could,
I was in charge of organizing my day.
The thing I do remember cos this was quite a while ago and it's funny,
(12:00):
isn't it cos how this was a long time ago?
So this is like 2003.
So we're talking more than 20 years ago,
but I'm still left with the feeling that Mike gave as a,
as a manager.
And one of the memories I do have was,
was,
was being left to my own devices to come up with a,
(12:22):
a technology solution to a problem that the team was facing.
So the team used to spend a lot of time putting quotes together.
Um The pricing information that they had was guesswork uh at best.
So I created a,
a database and um we,
(12:45):
and,
and,
and,
you know,
a front end that allowed us to create quotes within minutes rather than days.
Um But I was just given the freedom to come up with that solution and yeah,
and,
and,
and,
and then I could use that as an example of a,
a project that I did for the next job that I had with,
(13:09):
which was accenture.
Such a great example because when we think about,
you know,
what,
how does a good boss empower us?
You know,
I love that.
You said just,
you know,
being left alone to your own devices,
to be creative,
to be trusted.
And that is a definitely a kind of encouragement this person is,
is trusting me,
empowering me to create,
(13:30):
to,
to get on with it.
And,
you know,
there's certainly the problem of the absence,
absentee boss or manager where,
and that's not empowering because you're left wondering,
well,
what am I supposed to be doing and what are the parameters.
But that sweet spot of,
of feeling that empowerment of being left alone to do your work.
(13:52):
But you know what your work is or what the parameters are and empowered to do it.
That's,
that's such a great feeling.
It is.
It is.
Yeah.
So conversely,
when you think about the different places that you've worked,
conflict is very normal.
Conflict is just a part of the human interaction and we have conflict internally.
(14:12):
So can you tell us about a time you had a conflict with another colleague and how you handled it?
Yeah,
I am.
There was the,
the first example that comes to mind was um I'm not gonna mention any organizations or individuals because I,
you know,
I think I'd,
I'd rather keep it anonymous,
(14:34):
but it was 11 job where I was a,
a project manager um in tech.
And so my,
my job was that um I was,
we,
we used agile methodology.
So I was the,
what they call the Scrum master um or the,
the,
the Scrum coach.
And we,
(14:54):
I don't know how familiar you are with,
with agile.
But um 11 of the kind of things around agile methodology is that the team decides what they can comfortably commit to in a,
in a sprint,
which is,
you know,
a time boxed period of usually 2 to 4 weeks.
So my job as a,
as,
as the project manager was to make sure that the team didn't overcommit.
(15:17):
And also,
as we were kind of going through the sprint that the work that we had committed to was burning down.
Um,
and that,
that,
um,
we could get everything done and I worked with one,
you know,
technology manager.
Um,
and he was,
you know,
I,
I kind of said to him,
look,
I think the team has basically bitten off more than they can chew or we're just not getting through the work as quickly as we should be.
(15:45):
So,
what we need to do is remove something from the sprint and we can defer it till the next sprint.
And we had this argument,
you know,
he said,
no,
nothing's coming out.
And I said to him,
you know,
actually we have to take something out because the whole purpose is that we,
you know,
we,
we get down to zero that we're able to complete our work and,
(16:07):
and,
and ship something at the end of the sprint.
Um,
but he was like adamant that nothing should be removed and he got really,
he got a little bit fluster about it actually.
And kind of,
you know,
he,
he,
he,
he saw my way in the end.
But yeah,
it was,
that was one thing that comes to mind,
(16:28):
but I don't know,
it's,
I tend to,
I,
I can't,
I haven't ever really had any major conflicts within the workplace,
not like blazing rows or anything like that.
Um,
that might be because I tend to avoid conflict.
Um,
or it might be that maybe I've got the skills to,
to not allow things to become a big issue.
(16:52):
Mm.
Don't know.
So,
how did you move forward with your relationship with that person after this,
um,
this agreement?
Were you able to just put it in the past or talk through it or deal with it and move on from memory?
I think we just moved on.
Um I don't think it was a big issue for him.
(17:12):
Uh It's probably,
it was probably more of a AAA bigger issue for me,
like I say,
I don't really like conflict.
Um,
but we just moved on.
Um,
because yeah,
it,
it wouldn't have helped the team to fester on it.
Um I think at that moment,
I,
(17:32):
I was showing my assertiveness as a project manager because it,
it was my job to make sure that we could deliver what we said that we would deliver.
But also it was my job to protect the team to make sure that they didn't get um burnt out from over committing to,
to doing too much work.
(17:53):
You know,
it's such a great example of a conflict because that's just,
that's not necessarily even a personality clash which we have all the time and um that those are normal sorts of,
you know,
value differences within an organization that people are.
Um,
you know,
maybe we're going towards the same mission and we have just sort of different visions as to what to achieve or how to achieve it.
(18:14):
And those are,
that's just a very normal sort of clash.
And so the question is,
what do we do in the moment?
What do we do next?
And I really like that first.
You open with not liking conflict and a lot of people don't,
I don't like conflict is what I do for a living and I find it personally difficult,
but you also said that maybe you just deal with it,
(18:37):
you know,
and in so much that I see because I do workplace mediation as well.
By the time something comes to mediation,
things have not been dealt with usually for a significant amount of time.
And so something that was a disagreement or a perceived slight,
a real slight has grown,
like compounding effect so that it's bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
(19:01):
And now it is this problem because it hasn't been dealt with.
And so,
I mean,
to be,
it could be that you haven't had a ton of workplace conflict because you've just dealt with it as it came.
And so it didn't fester.
Do you think that's probably the case or,
or not?
I don't,
I don't know.
(19:22):
Yeah,
I think so.
And,
but I,
I think I've also,
I've also been quite lucky in working environments that I think have like a high level of professionalism.
Um And now,
now that I'm a consultant and I,
I've got the privilege of working with lots of different businesses across lots of different sectors.
(19:44):
You know,
ranging from technology to hospitality,
to health care,
to professional services.
I do because I'm in this position.
I do hear lots of stories that on one level,
like I find hard to relate to because I haven't worked in that environment where,
(20:05):
uh you know,
a client might say to me,
oh,
we've got this situation where this kind of behavior is happening on the factory floor or in the kitchen of the restaurant.
And I'm like,
hm,
that's interesting.
Cos I've,
I've personally never worked in that kind of environment,
but I think it's because I've worked in,
um,
and I don't mean this disrespectfully but it's,
(20:26):
I've worked in the kind of like,
quote unquote professional environments,
like professional services or the BBC where I think there's a,
a high standard of values and behaviors that,
that generally go on.
It's an interesting reflection.
My experience has been so I worked,
I taught philosophy for a very long time and most of my work has been in universities and I have found because most of my life has been in professional work is that it really,
(20:56):
you've got,
I suppose a university which I'm most familiar with and within a university you have all these different pockets,
right?
Different departments.
Um,
all different kinds of individuals that make a university work and I have found that the,
the,
the level of individual actually doesn't make much of a difference.
(21:18):
It has,
it has to do with what are the standards of civility.
So,
professionalism,
what it means to be professional.
I have very rarely come across a person who thinks they're not being professional,
it's the other person.
And so,
um,
I agree most of us,
we have this expectation everywhere that we work and certainly in professional circles that people are going to be,
(21:44):
you know,
what we consider to be professional,
not highly emotive,
so on and so forth,
getting their work done,
highly motivated,
motivated by values and a lot of the individuals that I come across,
they have these values.
But there's this breakdown in communication,
breakdown in expectations,
ability to communicate when something is going wrong for them because we assume the other person,
(22:09):
we assume ma intent on the other person,
they are intending to leave me out or misrepresent me or whatever it may be.
So my experience is that it's not so much where somebody is working,
but the climate and what the management is allowing and expecting and you know,
(22:29):
nipping in the bud,
so to speak or allowing to continue investor.
Yeah,
that's really,
really good point.
Yeah.
So I want to hear um about the work that you do now and I was um on your website and I was looking at your different workshops and you have a couple coming up and it's called help.
I'm scared of saying the wrong thing.
(22:50):
I love the title of that.
I would like you to,
to,
to talk about that in my work,
which is a little bit different but um related work.
I find that a lot of people won't have conversations with colleagues because they don't want to make it worse.
I imagine what you're talking about is a little bit different but maybe not.
Can you tell us about this workshop?
(23:11):
It is somewhat related to what you just said.
So this workshop was actually created by my colleague Brooklyn who works on my team and she,
she delivers the workshop herself.
And what,
what,
what the workshop really addresses is what we come across a lot,
which is the fear of saying or doing the wrong thing that might cause offense or embarrassment to somebody else or your or yourself.
(23:38):
And therefore managers who have this fear,
avoid having those difficult or awkward conversations that they should be having or they avoid talking about difference altogether,
which doesn't help us create the kind of inclusive environment or culture that we're striving to achieve.
(23:59):
So really the workshop addresses this challenge head on.
Um and,
and it gives some really practical hints and tips on,
on,
on how you can I suppose boost your own confidence in talking more candidly about diversity and inclusion.
(24:19):
When I think about,
about Misspeak,
I like that way of phrasing it because most people want to treat other people well.
Most people show up to work and they want to do a good job and,
and they want to include and see and yet because of the fear that many people experience because of cancel culture or being embarrassed.
(24:44):
And,
you know,
the idea of being embarrassed is a barrier for doing good work because we are,
we fear being embarrassed.
Um,
and so many times,
of course,
uh you know,
this is the work that you do.
Uh but people just go into denial or they decide not to see so that or pretend there isn't a difference so that they don't have to deal with.
(25:09):
Um misspeaking,
misstepped,
embarrassing,
being embarrassed,
being publicly corrected or called out.
So what,
what do you say to somebody who maybe we want to obviously move past the lip service of de I,
you know,
and to actually embracing and wanting and celebrating diversity,
(25:31):
equity inclusion,
to get to the belonging and flourishing of all the members of our community.
So we in the other work that we do,
we actually spend a lot of time with senior leaders running companies to help them connect with the business case of diversity and inclusion.
(25:53):
Because what we find is that leaders,
there are those leaders that kind of get it on a very kind of cognitive,
logical or rational level.
They may have read the mckinsey reports,
there's several of them now and they're like,
oh I get it.
I understand that a diverse team,
outperforms a homogeneous team.
I understand that it,
it helps us become a higher performing business.
(26:15):
Then you've got other leaders who um connect with it in a more kind of emotional level.
So maybe they're just more of a playmaker um by,
by style,
they,
they,
they,
they're all about building consensus within teams,
bringing everyone together,
heading,
you know,
heading towards the same mission.
(26:36):
But then the,
then the do also have this what I call the big red dot which is what's happening in there other than consciousness.
And this is where there's the fear of saying the wrong thing.
This is where our implicit biases sit,
there's imposter syndrome ie the lack of confidence or the fear of getting things wrong.
Um And also,
(26:58):
so we have to kind of address those challenges.
The other thing in this big red dot is,
is senior leaders feeling like they should have all the answers because of their position or authority in the company that they need to know what they're doing.
But actually,
in a lot of cases,
senior leaders,
they,
they don't know what they're doing.
(27:19):
Um And,
and so I suppose you have to have this kind of humility as a leader to say,
you know what,
I'm not sure what I'm doing here.
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna be vulnerable in this moment and um I'm gonna ask for help and support So this is what we're dealing with.
But going back to your kind of question really,
what we're trying to do is is help the senior leader understand their,
(27:42):
their own business case for Ed I because you know,
yes,
you can Google it but you have to make it personal to your company.
Cos your company is unique.
You have an,
you've got your own unique history,
you've got your own unique position within the market.
You've got your own unique set of people working for you and your own unique culture.
(28:06):
So,
Ed I has to be a unique um business case for you as well.
That makes so much sense because when we think about solving problems,
we,
we do this,
this abstract work,
which there's definitely a place for that.
But in order to make it long lasting,
in order to make,
(28:27):
to realize it,
it has to be concrete,
particular and everything has to do with the,
as you said,
the individuals,
the individual culture,
the time and how it plays out in this place at this time,
which means it's an ongoing conversation about how do we have this sustainable continuous effort in order to really bring this about and how do we measure it?
(28:53):
How do we know if we're getting it being able to have and want those kind of conversations so that,
you know,
people speak up and we develop the psychological safety so we can talk about in a professional manner.
How do we have this environment that is really fit for everyone now and into the future?
(29:15):
Right?
Because we're talking about the future in your book is called Inclusive Growth,
Future Proof Your Business by creating a diverse workplace.
And yeah,
so can you tell us about,
about your book and your podcast?
I definitely want to talk about your podcast.
It sounds like such a wonderful resource for people who are really interested in making um their,
(29:38):
their workplace a place for everyone and for the future.
Yeah,
the,
the podcast is fun because I I get II I interview diversity inclusion experts,
thought leaders,
but also business leaders on what they're doing to create more inclusive workplaces.
And we've got a whole diverse range of topics ranging from digital accessibility or inclusion through to supporting people facing or experiencing menopause within the workplace to on boarding new employees in an inclusive way.
(30:17):
There's a whole diverse range of subjects and they're all really practical.
So anyone who listens to an episode can usually take away something practical that they can implement in their business right away.
My book.
Yeah,
you're right.
It.
So my book is um inclusive growth and the reason why I wrote the book and called it that was because I wanted to reframe diversity and inclusion for senior leaders.
(30:42):
I wanted them to understand that if they got it right for their organization that it would help their business grow and prosper Um And it was born out of a frustration that a lot of organizations were treating diversity and inclusion as a kind of box ticking exercise or window dressing just to raise the profile of the organization.
(31:03):
So my book is based on my own research of understanding.
OK,
so what if of the organizations that were doing it well,
implementing it in a sustainable way,
actually making a positive impact to the prosperity of their organization.
What were the core principles that they were working to?
(31:25):
Um And that's where I came up with seven core principles that I,
that I detail in the book,
I really love this emphasis on concrete steps that people can take and,
and back to your podcast.
This idea of,
you know,
hearing from people doing the work,
hearing from business leaders because when we hear specifically what somebody is doing,
(31:48):
it unlocks the imagination.
Story has a way of doing this for us.
We hear somebody else's story,
we hear somebody else's success or what they have tried in the part that worked,
the part that did it,
but we hear other people doing it and we think,
oh,
I can do this because it can feel overwhelming if you're thinking about retrofitting or moving from 14% to 50% you know,
(32:16):
you know,
male or female or whatever it might be or whatever the goal is.
We think,
OK,
how do I do that given this field or how do we make this reality given where we are.
And so when we listen to other people's stories and their successes,
then it can open the imagination so that people can say,
(32:37):
OK,
I can move in this positive,
this positive way.
And I love the idea of giving people a vision,
right?
When you give people a vision instead of a stick,
which I think a lot of de I has been,
you must do this and all your employees must go through this video.
(32:59):
And so we can say everybody's done this once a year,
you must do it by this time,
you know.
And so,
oh,
everybody has been trained and it's like,
and nobody has been trained,
right?
But if you give people a vision because we typically want to help our fellow human,
we typically want to be in an organization that is going somewhere that is,
(33:23):
that is current and relevant and actually meeting the needs of our constituents and our constituents are everyone right in every business,
you know,
we're looking at the whole spectrum of experience.
And so that's,
that's wonderful,
wonderful resources for people.
Yeah,
I like,
(33:43):
I like what you were saying about creating the vision and it's I'm writing my second book at the moment and it's something because the first book is almost like the principles of what good looks like.
But then everyone was like,
oh,
this is a really good book.
But how do I actually implement it in my business.
So I was like,
OK,
I better write a second book,
which is about the implementation.
And it's now based on five years of experience of working with lots of different businesses.
(34:08):
And I,
I've come up with another model um and for the implementation and one of the points that I'm making is like you're saying about creating that vision.
And I like to,
I wish I could claim credit for this.
But I like using the John Cotter Change Management model cos he says that in,
in phase one,
(34:28):
you need to create the right climate of change.
So he says,
first of all,
um uh you need to create uh a sense of urgency.
And so I always say to my clients getting,
getting your hands on employee insights and data about what problems and challenges they're facing,
helps create that,
that sense of urgency.
(34:48):
Then he said,
build your guiding coalition,
which is getting your senior leadership team all on board so that they understand why the why um again to borrow Simons,
the next work around,
begin with the why or start with the why.
So they understand the why and then thirdly um create the vision which you can then share with the rest of the organization.
(35:09):
So it is really important that they,
they create that vision when I work with conflict um addressing conflict or I,
I do a lot of speaking and talking to people about addressing conflict.
And one thing that I start with certainly when it's business leaders is the cost,
right?
So,
you know,
you're just burning through money and this is the cost to the US economy and to the global economy for mismanagement and not dealing with conflict.
(35:36):
And so that's,
you know,
this pain point and then the vision of this is what you're going to get if you get this,
right?
And so the time the creativity,
the engagement,
the flourishing what you're going to get if you decide to do this,
because if you just start with the pain,
(35:57):
you know,
most people with conflict and I think it is the same with the E I,
we just participate in magical thinking and we just wish it away.
And um certainly that is the way with conflict and yet that's typically not what happens.
Typically,
it gets worse,
it becomes more and more unmanageable.
And so when we deal with it early,
often swiftly and justly then where it's much easier to,
(36:23):
to make that kind of progress.
And so giving people a vision of OK,
this is what's going on in your organization right now,
maybe the particular level of dysfunction.
But where is it that you want to be?
OK.
So this is where you wanna go.
All right.
So let's just work backwards and think about what we need to do and,
and we break it into these manageable steps.
(36:43):
What can I do now in order to get that,
you know,
developing these sorts of good habits.
So,
in your,
in your work with,
with the I,
and,
and coming up with,
with conflict or resistance,
how do you deal with it?
And what kind of advice do you give your clients at,
dealing with conflict with people who maybe don't want to get on board or whatever you find.
(37:06):
Yeah,
it's an interesting one because I think first of all,
so about your point about people getting on board or not,
actually,
one of the points that I like to make is that we don't necessarily need everyone on board.
And if you think about like the Rogers diffusion curve and it's,
it's used a lot in product,
product management and releases,
(37:28):
you've got about 16% of your audience on the left hand side of the bell curve,
who are your innovators and your early adopters and you need to focus on them first and then they will create the tipping point for you to get your early majority and make majority on board eventually.
And then at the end,
(37:48):
like there's the laggards and I think there's a question of maybe,
you know,
in,
in the interest of inclusion,
we need to include them as well.
Um But also it might be,
it might mean that further down the line,
uh a leadership team need to have a conversation about whether um people who are quote unquote laggards are,
(38:10):
are the right fit the right cultural fit for an organization are the right values alignment.
Um So,
but that,
that's kind of later down the line.
So I always say to my clients that I,
if you,
if you're worried about those people who think that diversity inclusion is just a bunch of woke nonsense and it's for the snowflake generation or I'm just trying to reel off other things that I've heard people say,
(38:36):
um you know,
or the company should be focusing on the,
the commerciality or the bottom line,
not on,
you know,
not on Ed.
I,
that just f first of all identify the innovators and the ear early adopters.
That's such good advice.
So,
teaching philosophy for over 20 years,
sometimes I would have a tendency to focus in on the students who I could see were just not buying it.
(38:57):
They were not interested in the philosophy of mind or epistemology,
whatever we were talking about and I'd want to win them over and,
and then I just sort of realized that I see these eager faces,
I see these light bulbs going on and while it bothers me because I want everybody to love Socrates like I do or whatever,
(39:18):
or at least understand what,
what is being said.
I,
I let go of that long ago of needing or really desiring everyone and realizing it's just not going to happen and it's not that they're a lost cause,
you know,
its philosophy is not everybody's cup of tea.
I realized most people were in there because it was a requirement.
(39:39):
But I think about that with conflict,
uh talking about conflict and my experience is teaching something that quite a few people,
most people just were not,
not something they wanted to be doing really helped me to embrace it.
And I love that work that helped me so much when I,
when I really thought about,
you know,
the early adopters and then,
you know,
that whole bell curve and,
(40:01):
and thinking about what you actually really need in order to make a change.
If you're waiting for everybody to get on board,
especially the naysayers,
it's just not gonna happen.
But,
but that's with so many things,
we don't need everybody on board.
We can still want and extend grace and encouragement because some of us depending on what the initiative is,
(40:22):
takes longer to see that vision or for some of us change,
depending on the change is harder and so um encouraging.
But when it's something that is central about the values of an organization clear is kind telling people what is specifically required of them,
especially when it comes to civility and how we're gonna treat everyone.
(40:45):
I think there are some non negotiables that this is how we're going to have.
This is a level of respect.
We are going to require every single member from the part time person to the person who makes the most money or innovation for the organization.
Nobody is off the civility hook.
No.
And I,
and it takes a bold leader to make that stand because I remember working for one organization where some very senior influential leaders and,
(41:17):
and they were bringing in lots of money for the company were asked to leave because they didn't behave in accordance with the,
the,
the values and the culture of the company.
And the chief executive at the time was very clear that like the civility that you're talking about,
um,
(41:38):
was really important regardless of how much money they were making for the company.
It does as absolutely right.
It takes a really strong leader,
really strong leadership to make those calls.
But the message that it sends to everyone about how we just treat people that people,
(42:00):
you know,
were people first and uh employees second and,
and really what is required because it's not the values on the wall,
it's what is lived out,
what is expected.
And when somebody I suppose misbehaves or,
or how we deal with mistakes in a workplace that how we deal with those people who violate um basic civility norms.
(42:27):
How,
what does the company really think about me?
Am I really cared about here?
Is this really a place that wants to hear from me or not?
Yeah.
And,
and we see,
we see not what's written in the policy but what is actually lived out in front of her eyes?
Yeah.
It was funny.
I went,
I went along and did some training for a client once and I,
(42:50):
I arrived in reception and behind the reception desk was their values listed out and diversity and inclusion was right at the top of that list.
And I was going,
I was going to do some diversity and inclusion training.
And then when I got in the training room,
everyone just looked really miserable and they,
and they were sat there,
(43:11):
the body language was really bad.
They had their arms folded,
slouched in their chair.
It was clear that nobody wanted to be there.
And then they were like,
not really participating in the training.
And I'm sure you've been in this situation before and you're like giving that training or that lecture.
And it's like,
so I kind of called it out in the moment.
I was like,
I,
I can't remember exactly what I said,
(43:32):
but I was basically like,
what on earth is going on here,
you know,
like,
does nobody want to be here?
And um and they were like,
well,
yeah,
this training's pointless because um the,
the senior management team of the company just don't give two shits about diversity inclusion.
And that the way that they behave is not inclusive and it's not respectful.
(43:56):
So why,
you know,
this is just pointless basically.
And,
and,
and for me,
it was just like,
it was that light bulb moment where it's like you can have the,
you can have the,
the values written up on the wall yet.
You,
it doesn't mean to say that they're being lived and breathed in the organization.
There's a major disconnect.
(44:18):
Yeah.
I'm,
I'm glad you brought that up because,
you know,
when we're in school and you have busy work,
it's hard to get a kid to do busy work because it's like,
what's the point?
Or it's not going to be graded or nobody cares.
And it's the same when we are in our workplaces if you're making me do this,
but it doesn't make a difference and you don't care about it.
It is a waste of time.
(44:38):
Now,
what would I be doing instead?
Maybe I'd be sitting at my desk wasting time,
but at least I would be the one deciding how I was wasting it.
There's just something about going through the motions that is demoralizing and against.
I think we have this innate sense of justice.
And so when we see rules applied differently or we see this is what you say you value,
(45:01):
but this is what you actually value.
We just,
it's,
you know,
when we think about quiet,
quitting or disengagement,
not living up to our potential.
That's just just so demoralizing to a person to realize this is where I work and this is where I work for and maybe I'm here because I'm stuck.
Yeah.
Agreed.
(45:21):
Agreed.
Well,
when you look into this is the last question I'd like to end on Toby when you look into the future of the world of work,
what do you think needs to happen so that everyone in the workforce is not only treated with dignity and respect,
but they're encouraged to flourish and thrive.
(45:43):
I think what we should be doing is,
is actually talking to and listening to younger people.
Um a lot more because they've got very different expectations about what work is going to be like.
So I think those of us who've been in the workplace for a while need to challenge some of the assumptions or Presumptions that we're making and really understand what their expectations are.
(46:13):
And also I,
I just think technology,
we've just seen the exponential change in technology over the last 20 to 30 years as well.
And that's only going to continue if you just think about what the role that artificial intelligence is gonna play in the n not,
not even the next 20 years,
it's like literally the next five years I think are gonna be revolutionary for us.
(46:38):
So I think we also need to consider how shifts in technology will impact us.
And then the other thing is not only just looking at younger people,
but also people are working into older age as well because the the age of retirement is increasing,
people are living longer healthcare is better.
So they're more healthier into older age.
(46:59):
And so I think we need to make sure that we're inclusive of,
of multiple generations within the workplace.
Um I was working with a,
a colleague of mine who does coaching and training for us.
Um And she was saying that she worked with a,
a big shipping company and on,
(47:21):
on helping them design their graduate recruitment company and a,
a key pivotal mindset shift for them was not what the company needs to teach the graduates,
but what the graduates should be teaching the company or the leaders and using the graduate on boarding program to actually learn from the graduates rather than the graduates learning from the business.
(47:48):
I suppose,
you know,
making it a reciprocal learning arrangements,
probably the best thing to do.
But there was definitely this onus on actually what do we need to learn from the graduates coming into the workplace?
And that was a light bulb moment for me actually about the need to yeah,
to have that learning from fresh new talent.
(48:08):
I absolutely love that this idea of reverse mentoring.
Um But I think reciprocal really is,
is the way to go about it because people coming in,
they don't know what they don't know and learning about the culture and there's just a variety of things.
But I think that's one wonderful way to get,
get over this artificial divide of us versus them,
(48:30):
the older workers versus the younger workers.
There are genuine differences,
but they are opportunities to be better to grow and also opportunities for divisiveness and calling names,
which,
what a waste of time the other I think is much more elegant and helpful and um I think absolutely for a better future.
(48:53):
Well,
to be,
thank you so much for spending time with me today.
Just so delightful to chat with you.
You're welcome.
Thanks for inviting me along,
Merry,
take care,
take care Toby.
Thank you for being on Conflict Managed.
I so appreciate the work that you are doing in DEI and helping individuals and organizations to have better,
(49:15):
more inclusive work environments.
Listener.
I encourage you to check out his podcast which is called Inclusive Growth Show.
I I proved his catalog.
He's got wonderful guests and topics Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
(49:37):
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If there's someone that you would like to see interviewed on Conflict Managed,
let me know you can email me at 3Pconflictrestoration@gmail.com.
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time.
(49:58):
Take care.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.
(00:24):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
Today on Conflict Managed we welcome Toby Mildon.
Toby is an equity diversity and inclusion architect and the founder of Mildon,
having previously worked at the BBC Deloitte and Accenture.
Toby has since delivered hugely successful programs for Sony, HarperCollins,
(00:44):
Centrica, Mitchells & Butlers, and the NHS as well as writing,
Inclusive Growth, an Amazon best seller. With both professional and lived experience,
Toby's mission is to shape diversity and inclusion,
workplace environments where everyone feels welcome,
empowered and given the opportunity to thrive.
Toby doesn't just consult,
(01:05):
he partners with organizations to create bestowed strategies that go beyond superficial initiatives.
Toby truly believes in the transformative power,
inclusivity to drive innovations,
attract the best talent boost,
employee engagement and elevate overall business performance.
Good morning,
Toby and welcome to Conflict Managed.
(01:26):
Thanks for inviting me along,
Merry.
It's lovely to meet you.
It's so lovely to meet you as well.
Well,
I'm delighted to have you on the show today and very interested to hear about your work in the area of DEI and helping people have better healthier work environments.
But before we get to that,
I would like to hear about your experiences and I want to hear about the first job you ever had.
(01:52):
So the first job I ever had was um for Lloyds Bank here in the UK.
Um It's one of our major banks,
High Street banks and it's quite an interesting story and it's one that I tell quite often as an example of inclusive leadership because I was from a quite a young age,
(02:14):
I was really eager to get into the workforce.
Um I was born with a rare neuromuscular disability which meant that I did have challenges in getting work experience like my friend,
unlike my friends,
because they were getting jobs um working in supermarkets and stacking shelves.
And I knew that I didn't have the physical ability to do that kind of role.
(02:37):
Um So I knew that I needed to do a,
a desk based or an office based job and I was receiving lots of rejections,
but then I made an appointment to open up a savings account at Lloyds Bank.
And then at the end of the meeting,
the bank manager said to me,
uh well,
is there anything else I can help you with?
And I said,
well,
it's funny you should ask.
Um I'd quite like a job,
(02:58):
please.
And to my surprise,
um he offered me work experience and I ended up working for Lloyds Bank on and off during my school and college uni university holidays for about three or four years.
Um but working for Lloyd's Bank looked fantastic on my CV.
And it was the stepping stone for me to work with some really amazing big well known brands.
(03:21):
Um but it,
if it wasn't for that one manager who n noticed my disability but saw through that and saw my potential that really accelerated my,
my career.
It is amazing what happens when we have that one person that sees us and um speaks into a cesar possibility.
(03:43):
So what was that first job like?
Was it like it,
you thought it was gonna be?
And,
and how was the management?
I really enjoyed it.
It was my first job.
I was about 15 or 16.
At the time I started off working in the back office in the branch.
I was processing business checks.
(04:04):
I was basically dealing with forms and that kind of thing,
but I was really eager to work on the front line and work with customers uh downstairs.
Um So I,
I spoke to the bank manager,
he supported that and I was then able to work as a customer service advisor in the branch.
(04:26):
Um you know,
working with customers advising,
you know,
answering their banking queries,
that kind of thing.
Um And again,
you know,
I mean,
by this time it was actually another manager.
Um and uh the,
the second manager was,
was as supportive and,
and inclusive,
inclusive as the first manager actually.
Um But he,
(04:47):
you know,
he enabled me to,
to do that role and it really boosted my confidence and made me feel like I was doing a,
a worthwhile job.
That's wonderful.
So what did you major in when you went to the university?
So I did marketing.
Um And then I haven't done any marketing since uh apart from now that I run my own consultancy company,
(05:10):
we do a lot of marketing.
I spend a lot of my time doing marketing.
Um But um yeah,
I,
I,
and it's funny,
I never did marketing as like a,
a proper job.
Um after graduating I,
I went straight into technology actually.
Um and uh yeah,
we worked in it and tech.
That is so interesting and,
and I like that you said,
you know,
(05:30):
you didn't do any marketing and yet as you,
as you reflect,
you do it all the time,
right?
Being a business owner is part of doing the business,
but so much of it is marketing so that you can do the work you want to do.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So why tech,
if I'm being brutally honest with you?
Um it was because it paid better.
(05:51):
Um So,
um yeah,
I mean,
you know,
I did my,
I did my undergraduate degree in marketing.
Um I was applying for various graduate jobs and um I was getting a lot of knockbacks as well.
I think some of that was to do with,
with being disabled,
if I'm honest,
um,
some of it,
(06:12):
you know,
wasn't.
Um,
but I ended up getting a job with accenture on their graduate program as an IT consultant and,
um,
worked for accenture for a number of years.
And after that,
I suppose I'd,
I'd kind of laid down my roots in,
in the tech industry,
(06:32):
um which led to just another tech role and another tech role.
And it wasn't until I was working at the BBC that I managed to do a career switch into divest and inclusion.
But it was more of a pivot because it was kind,
I was,
I,
I started off looking at diversity inclusion within the tech industry um or within the technology and engineering department at the BBC.
(06:53):
So I,
I was keeping 1 ft in tech and in 1 ft in diversity and inclusion.
So what led you to make that pivot?
Well,
again,
being brutally honest with you,
I,
I was getting a bit bored uh working on websites and apps.
Um And so II,
I kind of II,
I fell into it really,
(07:15):
I,
I used to work really closely with the chief operating officer of the Technology and Engineering Department and he was concerned with the rest of the senior leadership team about the,
the gender imbalance that we had in tech.
So the BBC at the time,
had a 5050 gender split.
But within my technology department,
(07:37):
I think it was about 14% of our workforce were women.
So the leadership team were worried about that and they created a plan to recruit more women into technology and engineering jobs and they needed a project manager to execute the plan.
And that's where I volunteered cos I,
I was a project manager at that time working on the projects like the redevelopment of the news website and the development of the,
(08:04):
the,
the BBC Sounds app.
Um So they needed a project manager,
but it was just,
it was in diversity and inclusion rather than an app or a website.
Well,
it's so interesting how we end up where we are.
It's these,
these steps along our career,
right?
And many times,
I think it's interesting the first job that we have like where it's at and the skills that we develop there.
(08:30):
And a lot of it also has to do with how we were treated,
how we felt.
Uh whether we were seen or you know,
how difficult or welcoming the environment was.
Is I love that you said you built confidence and so many first jobs have that opportunity to build confidence in us to see.
Oh,
I am capable,
I am contributing and of course sometimes and I don't like this,
(08:53):
like I don't want to be working in the back or as we go along our career,
we,
we do get bored.
Um And so we see,
well,
what do I want to be doing now?
And so now you have your business in de I,
can you tell us a little bit about that?
(09:14):
And I suppose I got itchy feet,
you know,
I wanted to do my own thing.
I'd always kind of had this dream of being a business owner or an entrepreneur.
I,
I'd found my thing at that point working in um Ed,
I,
and so um it was about,
it was just over five years ago that I set up my consultancy company.
(09:37):
Um And over the last 55 and a bit years,
it,
it's grown in terms of the number of clients that I work with has,
has grown.
I think I've now worked with over 100 different companies.
Um I have a team so we've got,
we've got a,
a team of uh five of us including me and um we're doing some really interesting projects.
(10:01):
So,
thinking about your own career,
what is the best experience you've ever had with another colleague or a boss?
And what was it?
That was so good about it for you.
The best manager I ever had was a guy called Mike uh or Michael and he uh at British Airways.
(10:21):
So I did an internship for British Airways for a year.
Um And I worked with Mike.
Um we were in the business development um department or the sales department of engineering.
So,
B A has got um hangars and engineers all over the world to fix aircraft.
(10:42):
Um They're not,
they don't,
they're not full to capacity all of the time.
So there is engineering capacity that B A can sell to other engineer.
Um Sorry to other airlines.
So our job was to sell this capacity to other airlines like Qantas or um you know,
United Airlines or that kind of thing.
Um But Mike was just an amazing manager and I think what made him amazing was that he just really empowered me to do my own work and gave me autonomy.
(11:15):
I wasn't,
I really don't like being micromanaged and,
and like Mike was the opposite of a micro manager,
but he was there to,
you know,
support me,
develop me um and help me um grow professionally.
So,
you know,
that is something that we most of us,
I mean,
very,
very few people actually want a micromanager,
(11:37):
we wanna be supported and encouraged to grow and develop.
So what are some specific things that Mike did that worked for you?
Um I think he just let me get on with it.
Uh So I was in charge of my day,
I suppose,
you know,
I,
I could,
I was in charge of organizing my day.
The thing I do remember cos this was quite a while ago and it's funny,
(12:00):
isn't it cos how this was a long time ago?
So this is like 2003.
So we're talking more than 20 years ago,
but I'm still left with the feeling that Mike gave as a,
as a manager.
And one of the memories I do have was,
was,
was being left to my own devices to come up with a,
(12:22):
a technology solution to a problem that the team was facing.
So the team used to spend a lot of time putting quotes together.
Um The pricing information that they had was guesswork uh at best.
So I created a,
a database and um we,
(12:45):
and,
and,
and,
you know,
a front end that allowed us to create quotes within minutes rather than days.
Um But I was just given the freedom to come up with that solution and yeah,
and,
and,
and,
and then I could use that as an example of a,
a project that I did for the next job that I had with,
(13:09):
which was accenture.
Such a great example because when we think about,
you know,
what,
how does a good boss empower us?
You know,
I love that.
You said just,
you know,
being left alone to your own devices,
to be creative,
to be trusted.
And that is a definitely a kind of encouragement this person is,
is trusting me,
empowering me to create,
(13:30):
to,
to get on with it.
And,
you know,
there's certainly the problem of the absence,
absentee boss or manager where,
and that's not empowering because you're left wondering,
well,
what am I supposed to be doing and what are the parameters.
But that sweet spot of,
of feeling that empowerment of being left alone to do your work.
(13:52):
But you know what your work is or what the parameters are and empowered to do it.
That's,
that's such a great feeling.
It is.
It is.
Yeah.
So conversely,
when you think about the different places that you've worked,
conflict is very normal.
Conflict is just a part of the human interaction and we have conflict internally.
(14:12):
So can you tell us about a time you had a conflict with another colleague and how you handled it?
Yeah,
I am.
There was the,
the first example that comes to mind was um I'm not gonna mention any organizations or individuals because I,
you know,
I think I'd,
I'd rather keep it anonymous,
(14:34):
but it was 11 job where I was a,
a project manager um in tech.
And so my,
my job was that um I was,
we,
we used agile methodology.
So I was the,
what they call the Scrum master um or the,
the,
the Scrum coach.
And we,
(14:54):
I don't know how familiar you are with,
with agile.
But um 11 of the kind of things around agile methodology is that the team decides what they can comfortably commit to in a,
in a sprint,
which is,
you know,
a time boxed period of usually 2 to 4 weeks.
So my job as a,
as,
as the project manager was to make sure that the team didn't overcommit.
(15:17):
And also,
as we were kind of going through the sprint that the work that we had committed to was burning down.
Um,
and that,
that,
um,
we could get everything done and I worked with one,
you know,
technology manager.
Um,
and he was,
you know,
I,
I kind of said to him,
look,
I think the team has basically bitten off more than they can chew or we're just not getting through the work as quickly as we should be.
(15:45):
So,
what we need to do is remove something from the sprint and we can defer it till the next sprint.
And we had this argument,
you know,
he said,
no,
nothing's coming out.
And I said to him,
you know,
actually we have to take something out because the whole purpose is that we,
you know,
we,
we get down to zero that we're able to complete our work and,
(16:07):
and,
and ship something at the end of the sprint.
Um,
but he was like adamant that nothing should be removed and he got really,
he got a little bit fluster about it actually.
And kind of,
you know,
he,
he,
he,
he saw my way in the end.
But yeah,
it was,
that was one thing that comes to mind,
(16:28):
but I don't know,
it's,
I tend to,
I,
I can't,
I haven't ever really had any major conflicts within the workplace,
not like blazing rows or anything like that.
Um,
that might be because I tend to avoid conflict.
Um,
or it might be that maybe I've got the skills to,
to not allow things to become a big issue.
(16:52):
Mm.
Don't know.
So,
how did you move forward with your relationship with that person after this,
um,
this agreement?
Were you able to just put it in the past or talk through it or deal with it and move on from memory?
I think we just moved on.
Um I don't think it was a big issue for him.
(17:12):
Uh It's probably,
it was probably more of a AAA bigger issue for me,
like I say,
I don't really like conflict.
Um,
but we just moved on.
Um,
because yeah,
it,
it wouldn't have helped the team to fester on it.
Um I think at that moment,
I,
(17:32):
I was showing my assertiveness as a project manager because it,
it was my job to make sure that we could deliver what we said that we would deliver.
But also it was my job to protect the team to make sure that they didn't get um burnt out from over committing to,
to doing too much work.
(17:53):
You know,
it's such a great example of a conflict because that's just,
that's not necessarily even a personality clash which we have all the time and um that those are normal sorts of,
you know,
value differences within an organization that people are.
Um,
you know,
maybe we're going towards the same mission and we have just sort of different visions as to what to achieve or how to achieve it.
(18:14):
And those are,
that's just a very normal sort of clash.
And so the question is,
what do we do in the moment?
What do we do next?
And I really like that first.
You open with not liking conflict and a lot of people don't,
I don't like conflict is what I do for a living and I find it personally difficult,
but you also said that maybe you just deal with it,
(18:37):
you know,
and in so much that I see because I do workplace mediation as well.
By the time something comes to mediation,
things have not been dealt with usually for a significant amount of time.
And so something that was a disagreement or a perceived slight,
a real slight has grown,
like compounding effect so that it's bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
(19:01):
And now it is this problem because it hasn't been dealt with.
And so,
I mean,
to be,
it could be that you haven't had a ton of workplace conflict because you've just dealt with it as it came.
And so it didn't fester.
Do you think that's probably the case or,
or not?
I don't,
I don't know.
(19:22):
Yeah,
I think so.
And,
but I,
I think I've also,
I've also been quite lucky in working environments that I think have like a high level of professionalism.
Um And now,
now that I'm a consultant and I,
I've got the privilege of working with lots of different businesses across lots of different sectors.
(19:44):
You know,
ranging from technology to hospitality,
to health care,
to professional services.
I do because I'm in this position.
I do hear lots of stories that on one level,
like I find hard to relate to because I haven't worked in that environment where,
(20:05):
uh you know,
a client might say to me,
oh,
we've got this situation where this kind of behavior is happening on the factory floor or in the kitchen of the restaurant.
And I'm like,
hm,
that's interesting.
Cos I've,
I've personally never worked in that kind of environment,
but I think it's because I've worked in,
um,
and I don't mean this disrespectfully but it's,
(20:26):
I've worked in the kind of like,
quote unquote professional environments,
like professional services or the BBC where I think there's a,
a high standard of values and behaviors that,
that generally go on.
It's an interesting reflection.
My experience has been so I worked,
I taught philosophy for a very long time and most of my work has been in universities and I have found because most of my life has been in professional work is that it really,
(20:56):
you've got,
I suppose a university which I'm most familiar with and within a university you have all these different pockets,
right?
Different departments.
Um,
all different kinds of individuals that make a university work and I have found that the,
the,
the level of individual actually doesn't make much of a difference.
(21:18):
It has,
it has to do with what are the standards of civility.
So,
professionalism,
what it means to be professional.
I have very rarely come across a person who thinks they're not being professional,
it's the other person.
And so,
um,
I agree most of us,
we have this expectation everywhere that we work and certainly in professional circles that people are going to be,
(21:44):
you know,
what we consider to be professional,
not highly emotive,
so on and so forth,
getting their work done,
highly motivated,
motivated by values and a lot of the individuals that I come across,
they have these values.
But there's this breakdown in communication,
breakdown in expectations,
ability to communicate when something is going wrong for them because we assume the other person,
(22:09):
we assume ma intent on the other person,
they are intending to leave me out or misrepresent me or whatever it may be.
So my experience is that it's not so much where somebody is working,
but the climate and what the management is allowing and expecting and you know,
(22:29):
nipping in the bud,
so to speak or allowing to continue investor.
Yeah,
that's really,
really good point.
Yeah.
So I want to hear um about the work that you do now and I was um on your website and I was looking at your different workshops and you have a couple coming up and it's called help.
I'm scared of saying the wrong thing.
(22:50):
I love the title of that.
I would like you to,
to,
to talk about that in my work,
which is a little bit different but um related work.
I find that a lot of people won't have conversations with colleagues because they don't want to make it worse.
I imagine what you're talking about is a little bit different but maybe not.
Can you tell us about this workshop?
(23:11):
It is somewhat related to what you just said.
So this workshop was actually created by my colleague Brooklyn who works on my team and she,
she delivers the workshop herself.
And what,
what,
what the workshop really addresses is what we come across a lot,
which is the fear of saying or doing the wrong thing that might cause offense or embarrassment to somebody else or your or yourself.
(23:38):
And therefore managers who have this fear,
avoid having those difficult or awkward conversations that they should be having or they avoid talking about difference altogether,
which doesn't help us create the kind of inclusive environment or culture that we're striving to achieve.
(23:59):
So really the workshop addresses this challenge head on.
Um and,
and it gives some really practical hints and tips on,
on,
on how you can I suppose boost your own confidence in talking more candidly about diversity and inclusion.
(24:19):
When I think about,
about Misspeak,
I like that way of phrasing it because most people want to treat other people well.
Most people show up to work and they want to do a good job and,
and they want to include and see and yet because of the fear that many people experience because of cancel culture or being embarrassed.
(24:44):
And,
you know,
the idea of being embarrassed is a barrier for doing good work because we are,
we fear being embarrassed.
Um,
and so many times,
of course,
uh you know,
this is the work that you do.
Uh but people just go into denial or they decide not to see so that or pretend there isn't a difference so that they don't have to deal with.
(25:09):
Um misspeaking,
misstepped,
embarrassing,
being embarrassed,
being publicly corrected or called out.
So what,
what do you say to somebody who maybe we want to obviously move past the lip service of de I,
you know,
and to actually embracing and wanting and celebrating diversity,
(25:31):
equity inclusion,
to get to the belonging and flourishing of all the members of our community.
So we in the other work that we do,
we actually spend a lot of time with senior leaders running companies to help them connect with the business case of diversity and inclusion.
(25:53):
Because what we find is that leaders,
there are those leaders that kind of get it on a very kind of cognitive,
logical or rational level.
They may have read the mckinsey reports,
there's several of them now and they're like,
oh I get it.
I understand that a diverse team,
outperforms a homogeneous team.
I understand that it,
it helps us become a higher performing business.
(26:15):
Then you've got other leaders who um connect with it in a more kind of emotional level.
So maybe they're just more of a playmaker um by,
by style,
they,
they,
they,
they're all about building consensus within teams,
bringing everyone together,
heading,
you know,
heading towards the same mission.
(26:36):
But then the,
then the do also have this what I call the big red dot which is what's happening in there other than consciousness.
And this is where there's the fear of saying the wrong thing.
This is where our implicit biases sit,
there's imposter syndrome ie the lack of confidence or the fear of getting things wrong.
Um And also,
(26:58):
so we have to kind of address those challenges.
The other thing in this big red dot is,
is senior leaders feeling like they should have all the answers because of their position or authority in the company that they need to know what they're doing.
But actually,
in a lot of cases,
senior leaders,
they,
they don't know what they're doing.
(27:19):
Um And,
and so I suppose you have to have this kind of humility as a leader to say,
you know what,
I'm not sure what I'm doing here.
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna be vulnerable in this moment and um I'm gonna ask for help and support So this is what we're dealing with.
But going back to your kind of question really,
what we're trying to do is is help the senior leader understand their,
(27:42):
their own business case for Ed I because you know,
yes,
you can Google it but you have to make it personal to your company.
Cos your company is unique.
You have an,
you've got your own unique history,
you've got your own unique position within the market.
You've got your own unique set of people working for you and your own unique culture.
(28:06):
So,
Ed I has to be a unique um business case for you as well.
That makes so much sense because when we think about solving problems,
we,
we do this,
this abstract work,
which there's definitely a place for that.
But in order to make it long lasting,
in order to make,
(28:27):
to realize it,
it has to be concrete,
particular and everything has to do with the,
as you said,
the individuals,
the individual culture,
the time and how it plays out in this place at this time,
which means it's an ongoing conversation about how do we have this sustainable continuous effort in order to really bring this about and how do we measure it?
(28:53):
How do we know if we're getting it being able to have and want those kind of conversations so that,
you know,
people speak up and we develop the psychological safety so we can talk about in a professional manner.
How do we have this environment that is really fit for everyone now and into the future?
(29:15):
Right?
Because we're talking about the future in your book is called Inclusive Growth,
Future Proof Your Business by creating a diverse workplace.
And yeah,
so can you tell us about,
about your book and your podcast?
I definitely want to talk about your podcast.
It sounds like such a wonderful resource for people who are really interested in making um their,
(29:38):
their workplace a place for everyone and for the future.
Yeah,
the,
the podcast is fun because I I get II I interview diversity inclusion experts,
thought leaders,
but also business leaders on what they're doing to create more inclusive workplaces.
And we've got a whole diverse range of topics ranging from digital accessibility or inclusion through to supporting people facing or experiencing menopause within the workplace to on boarding new employees in an inclusive way.
(30:17):
There's a whole diverse range of subjects and they're all really practical.
So anyone who listens to an episode can usually take away something practical that they can implement in their business right away.
My book.
Yeah,
you're right.
It.
So my book is um inclusive growth and the reason why I wrote the book and called it that was because I wanted to reframe diversity and inclusion for senior leaders.
(30:42):
I wanted them to understand that if they got it right for their organization that it would help their business grow and prosper Um And it was born out of a frustration that a lot of organizations were treating diversity and inclusion as a kind of box ticking exercise or window dressing just to raise the profile of the organization.
(31:03):
So my book is based on my own research of understanding.
OK,
so what if of the organizations that were doing it well,
implementing it in a sustainable way,
actually making a positive impact to the prosperity of their organization.
What were the core principles that they were working to?
(31:25):
Um And that's where I came up with seven core principles that I,
that I detail in the book,
I really love this emphasis on concrete steps that people can take and,
and back to your podcast.
This idea of,
you know,
hearing from people doing the work,
hearing from business leaders because when we hear specifically what somebody is doing,
(31:48):
it unlocks the imagination.
Story has a way of doing this for us.
We hear somebody else's story,
we hear somebody else's success or what they have tried in the part that worked,
the part that did it,
but we hear other people doing it and we think,
oh,
I can do this because it can feel overwhelming if you're thinking about retrofitting or moving from 14% to 50% you know,
(32:16):
you know,
male or female or whatever it might be or whatever the goal is.
We think,
OK,
how do I do that given this field or how do we make this reality given where we are.
And so when we listen to other people's stories and their successes,
then it can open the imagination so that people can say,
(32:37):
OK,
I can move in this positive,
this positive way.
And I love the idea of giving people a vision,
right?
When you give people a vision instead of a stick,
which I think a lot of de I has been,
you must do this and all your employees must go through this video.
(32:59):
And so we can say everybody's done this once a year,
you must do it by this time,
you know.
And so,
oh,
everybody has been trained and it's like,
and nobody has been trained,
right?
But if you give people a vision because we typically want to help our fellow human,
we typically want to be in an organization that is going somewhere that is,
(33:23):
that is current and relevant and actually meeting the needs of our constituents and our constituents are everyone right in every business,
you know,
we're looking at the whole spectrum of experience.
And so that's,
that's wonderful,
wonderful resources for people.
Yeah,
I like,
(33:43):
I like what you were saying about creating the vision and it's I'm writing my second book at the moment and it's something because the first book is almost like the principles of what good looks like.
But then everyone was like,
oh,
this is a really good book.
But how do I actually implement it in my business.
So I was like,
OK,
I better write a second book,
which is about the implementation.
And it's now based on five years of experience of working with lots of different businesses.
(34:08):
And I,
I've come up with another model um and for the implementation and one of the points that I'm making is like you're saying about creating that vision.
And I like to,
I wish I could claim credit for this.
But I like using the John Cotter Change Management model cos he says that in,
in phase one,
(34:28):
you need to create the right climate of change.
So he says,
first of all,
um uh you need to create uh a sense of urgency.
And so I always say to my clients getting,
getting your hands on employee insights and data about what problems and challenges they're facing,
helps create that,
that sense of urgency.
(34:48):
Then he said,
build your guiding coalition,
which is getting your senior leadership team all on board so that they understand why the why um again to borrow Simons,
the next work around,
begin with the why or start with the why.
So they understand the why and then thirdly um create the vision which you can then share with the rest of the organization.
(35:09):
So it is really important that they,
they create that vision when I work with conflict um addressing conflict or I,
I do a lot of speaking and talking to people about addressing conflict.
And one thing that I start with certainly when it's business leaders is the cost,
right?
So,
you know,
you're just burning through money and this is the cost to the US economy and to the global economy for mismanagement and not dealing with conflict.
(35:36):
And so that's,
you know,
this pain point and then the vision of this is what you're going to get if you get this,
right?
And so the time the creativity,
the engagement,
the flourishing what you're going to get if you decide to do this,
because if you just start with the pain,
(35:57):
you know,
most people with conflict and I think it is the same with the E I,
we just participate in magical thinking and we just wish it away.
And um certainly that is the way with conflict and yet that's typically not what happens.
Typically,
it gets worse,
it becomes more and more unmanageable.
And so when we deal with it early,
often swiftly and justly then where it's much easier to,
(36:23):
to make that kind of progress.
And so giving people a vision of OK,
this is what's going on in your organization right now,
maybe the particular level of dysfunction.
But where is it that you want to be?
OK.
So this is where you wanna go.
All right.
So let's just work backwards and think about what we need to do and,
and we break it into these manageable steps.
(36:43):
What can I do now in order to get that,
you know,
developing these sorts of good habits.
So,
in your,
in your work with,
with the I,
and,
and coming up with,
with conflict or resistance,
how do you deal with it?
And what kind of advice do you give your clients at,
dealing with conflict with people who maybe don't want to get on board or whatever you find.
(37:06):
Yeah,
it's an interesting one because I think first of all,
so about your point about people getting on board or not,
actually,
one of the points that I like to make is that we don't necessarily need everyone on board.
And if you think about like the Rogers diffusion curve and it's,
it's used a lot in product,
product management and releases,
(37:28):
you've got about 16% of your audience on the left hand side of the bell curve,
who are your innovators and your early adopters and you need to focus on them first and then they will create the tipping point for you to get your early majority and make majority on board eventually.
And then at the end,
(37:48):
like there's the laggards and I think there's a question of maybe,
you know,
in,
in the interest of inclusion,
we need to include them as well.
Um But also it might be,
it might mean that further down the line,
uh a leadership team need to have a conversation about whether um people who are quote unquote laggards are,
(38:10):
are the right fit the right cultural fit for an organization are the right values alignment.
Um So,
but that,
that's kind of later down the line.
So I always say to my clients that I,
if you,
if you're worried about those people who think that diversity inclusion is just a bunch of woke nonsense and it's for the snowflake generation or I'm just trying to reel off other things that I've heard people say,
(38:36):
um you know,
or the company should be focusing on the,
the commerciality or the bottom line,
not on,
you know,
not on Ed.
I,
that just f first of all identify the innovators and the ear early adopters.
That's such good advice.
So,
teaching philosophy for over 20 years,
sometimes I would have a tendency to focus in on the students who I could see were just not buying it.
(38:57):
They were not interested in the philosophy of mind or epistemology,
whatever we were talking about and I'd want to win them over and,
and then I just sort of realized that I see these eager faces,
I see these light bulbs going on and while it bothers me because I want everybody to love Socrates like I do or whatever,
(39:18):
or at least understand what,
what is being said.
I,
I let go of that long ago of needing or really desiring everyone and realizing it's just not going to happen and it's not that they're a lost cause,
you know,
its philosophy is not everybody's cup of tea.
I realized most people were in there because it was a requirement.
(39:39):
But I think about that with conflict,
uh talking about conflict and my experience is teaching something that quite a few people,
most people just were not,
not something they wanted to be doing really helped me to embrace it.
And I love that work that helped me so much when I,
when I really thought about,
you know,
the early adopters and then,
you know,
that whole bell curve and,
(40:01):
and thinking about what you actually really need in order to make a change.
If you're waiting for everybody to get on board,
especially the naysayers,
it's just not gonna happen.
But,
but that's with so many things,
we don't need everybody on board.
We can still want and extend grace and encouragement because some of us depending on what the initiative is,
(40:22):
takes longer to see that vision or for some of us change,
depending on the change is harder and so um encouraging.
But when it's something that is central about the values of an organization clear is kind telling people what is specifically required of them,
especially when it comes to civility and how we're gonna treat everyone.
(40:45):
I think there are some non negotiables that this is how we're going to have.
This is a level of respect.
We are going to require every single member from the part time person to the person who makes the most money or innovation for the organization.
Nobody is off the civility hook.
No.
And I,
and it takes a bold leader to make that stand because I remember working for one organization where some very senior influential leaders and,
(41:17):
and they were bringing in lots of money for the company were asked to leave because they didn't behave in accordance with the,
the,
the values and the culture of the company.
And the chief executive at the time was very clear that like the civility that you're talking about,
um,
(41:38):
was really important regardless of how much money they were making for the company.
It does as absolutely right.
It takes a really strong leader,
really strong leadership to make those calls.
But the message that it sends to everyone about how we just treat people that people,
(42:00):
you know,
were people first and uh employees second and,
and really what is required because it's not the values on the wall,
it's what is lived out,
what is expected.
And when somebody I suppose misbehaves or,
or how we deal with mistakes in a workplace that how we deal with those people who violate um basic civility norms.
(42:27):
How,
what does the company really think about me?
Am I really cared about here?
Is this really a place that wants to hear from me or not?
Yeah.
And,
and we see,
we see not what's written in the policy but what is actually lived out in front of her eyes?
Yeah.
It was funny.
I went,
I went along and did some training for a client once and I,
(42:50):
I arrived in reception and behind the reception desk was their values listed out and diversity and inclusion was right at the top of that list.
And I was going,
I was going to do some diversity and inclusion training.
And then when I got in the training room,
everyone just looked really miserable and they,
and they were sat there,
(43:11):
the body language was really bad.
They had their arms folded,
slouched in their chair.
It was clear that nobody wanted to be there.
And then they were like,
not really participating in the training.
And I'm sure you've been in this situation before and you're like giving that training or that lecture.
And it's like,
so I kind of called it out in the moment.
I was like,
I,
I can't remember exactly what I said,
(43:32):
but I was basically like,
what on earth is going on here,
you know,
like,
does nobody want to be here?
And um and they were like,
well,
yeah,
this training's pointless because um the,
the senior management team of the company just don't give two shits about diversity inclusion.
And that the way that they behave is not inclusive and it's not respectful.
(43:56):
So why,
you know,
this is just pointless basically.
And,
and,
and for me,
it was just like,
it was that light bulb moment where it's like you can have the,
you can have the,
the values written up on the wall yet.
You,
it doesn't mean to say that they're being lived and breathed in the organization.
There's a major disconnect.
(44:18):
Yeah.
I'm,
I'm glad you brought that up because,
you know,
when we're in school and you have busy work,
it's hard to get a kid to do busy work because it's like,
what's the point?
Or it's not going to be graded or nobody cares.
And it's the same when we are in our workplaces if you're making me do this,
but it doesn't make a difference and you don't care about it.
It is a waste of time.
(44:38):
Now,
what would I be doing instead?
Maybe I'd be sitting at my desk wasting time,
but at least I would be the one deciding how I was wasting it.
There's just something about going through the motions that is demoralizing and against.
I think we have this innate sense of justice.
And so when we see rules applied differently or we see this is what you say you value,
(45:01):
but this is what you actually value.
We just,
it's,
you know,
when we think about quiet,
quitting or disengagement,
not living up to our potential.
That's just just so demoralizing to a person to realize this is where I work and this is where I work for and maybe I'm here because I'm stuck.
Yeah.
Agreed.
(45:21):
Agreed.
Well,
when you look into this is the last question I'd like to end on Toby when you look into the future of the world of work,
what do you think needs to happen so that everyone in the workforce is not only treated with dignity and respect,
but they're encouraged to flourish and thrive.
(45:43):
I think what we should be doing is,
is actually talking to and listening to younger people.
Um a lot more because they've got very different expectations about what work is going to be like.
So I think those of us who've been in the workplace for a while need to challenge some of the assumptions or Presumptions that we're making and really understand what their expectations are.
(46:13):
And also I,
I just think technology,
we've just seen the exponential change in technology over the last 20 to 30 years as well.
And that's only going to continue if you just think about what the role that artificial intelligence is gonna play in the n not,
not even the next 20 years,
it's like literally the next five years I think are gonna be revolutionary for us.
(46:38):
So I think we also need to consider how shifts in technology will impact us.
And then the other thing is not only just looking at younger people,
but also people are working into older age as well because the the age of retirement is increasing,
people are living longer healthcare is better.
So they're more healthier into older age.
(46:59):
And so I think we need to make sure that we're inclusive of,
of multiple generations within the workplace.
Um I was working with a,
a colleague of mine who does coaching and training for us.
Um And she was saying that she worked with a,
a big shipping company and on,
(47:21):
on helping them design their graduate recruitment company and a,
a key pivotal mindset shift for them was not what the company needs to teach the graduates,
but what the graduates should be teaching the company or the leaders and using the graduate on boarding program to actually learn from the graduates rather than the graduates learning from the business.
(47:48):
I suppose,
you know,
making it a reciprocal learning arrangements,
probably the best thing to do.
But there was definitely this onus on actually what do we need to learn from the graduates coming into the workplace?
And that was a light bulb moment for me actually about the need to yeah,
to have that learning from fresh new talent.
(48:08):
I absolutely love that this idea of reverse mentoring.
Um But I think reciprocal really is,
is the way to go about it because people coming in,
they don't know what they don't know and learning about the culture and there's just a variety of things.
But I think that's one wonderful way to get,
get over this artificial divide of us versus them,
(48:30):
the older workers versus the younger workers.
There are genuine differences,
but they are opportunities to be better to grow and also opportunities for divisiveness and calling names,
which,
what a waste of time the other I think is much more elegant and helpful and um I think absolutely for a better future.
(48:53):
Well,
to be,
thank you so much for spending time with me today.
Just so delightful to chat with you.
You're welcome.
Thanks for inviting me along,
Merry,
take care,
take care Toby.
Thank you for being on Conflict Managed.
I so appreciate the work that you are doing in DEI and helping individuals and organizations to have better,
(49:15):
more inclusive work environments.
Listener.
I encourage you to check out his podcast which is called Inclusive Growth Show.
I I proved his catalog.
He's got wonderful guests and topics Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
(49:37):
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If there's someone that you would like to see interviewed on Conflict Managed,
let me know you can email me at 3Pconflictrestoration@gmail.com.
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time.
(49:58):
Take care.
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