Ep 104, "Be More Curious & Less Judgmental"

This week on Conflict Managed, we are joined by Philip Grindell, an esteemed security expert and founder of Defuse, a consultancy dedicated to mitigating risks and safeguarding everyone from high net-worth individuals, organizations, and those in the public eye from various threats.

Join us as we discuss:

🤝The need for the human touch when dealing with problems and complaints

👓Short sighted and costly nature of cost-cutting human services for employees

🥇Considering what success really is: having more or being more?

🔑Identifying problem behaviors for intervention and de-escalation

🧭The need to re-humanize our work environments

With a distinguished career spanning from senior roles in Scotland Yard to establishing protective intelligence teams in Parliament, Philip Grindell brings expertise in protective intelligence, behavioral science, and security management. Having spearheaded initiatives to protect public figures and organizations, Philip understands the complexities of managing physical, reputational, and psychological risks. His comprehensive approach combines rigorous data analysis with bespoke strategies tailored to each client's unique circumstances. Philip's background as a former senior detective, coupled with his experience in counterterrorism and security coordination, underscores his commitment to delivering top-tier protection services. Through Defuse, he provides clients with the same level of expertise and service afforded to government officials and political leaders.

Social Media Sites:

• LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/behavioural-threat-management-specialist
• Youtube Channel - (6) Defuse® - YouTube
• Website - defuseglobal.com/ 

Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by Merry Brown.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.

(00:24):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
Today on Conflict Managed.
We welcome Philip Grindell.
Phillip is an esteemed security expert and founder of diffuse a consultancy dedicated to mitigating risks and safeguarding everyone from high net worth individuals,
organizations and those in the public eye from various threats with a distinguished career spanning from senior roles in Scotland

(00:46):
Yard to establishing intelligence teams in Parliament.
Philip brings expertise in protective intelligence,
behavioral science and security management.
Having spearheaded initiatives to protect public figures and organizations.
Phillip understands the complexities of managing physical reputational and psychological risks.
His comprehensive approach combines rigorous data analysis with bespoke strategies tailored to each client's unique circumstances.

(01:13):
Phillips background as a former senior detective,
coupled with his experience in counterterrorism and security coordinations underscores his commitment to delivering top tier protective services through diffuse,
he provides clients with the same level of expertise and service afforded to government officials and political leaders.
Good morning,
Philip and welcome to Conflict Managed.

(01:34):
Good morning.
Thank you.
I'm delighted to have you here and and learn all about you and your business and your work experience.
So,
let's just get started.
And will you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
Sure.
So,
uh,
I'm gonna show my age now.
But my very first job,
well,
my very first job actually was,

(01:55):
was,
um,
back in the 19 seventies,
I suppose,
early 19 seventies in,
I'm in the UK.
So we used to have milkman that used to deliver our milk every day and they would deliver milk and eggs and then they kind of when they were,
when they were a bit entrepreneurial,
you got orange juice or what have you.
And my very first job was working with the milkman.

(02:18):
And so it was absolutely freezing and I would uh hop in his little,
his little milk delivery vehicle,
I suppose.
It's funny cos it's,
it's an electric vehicle and you think how far we've come now?
Actually,
it was electric,
you know,
40 odd years ago.
But,
and I would help him deliver the,
deliver the milk and deliver the eggs and,
and all that.

(02:38):
So it wasn't hugely challenging,
but it was more just for pocket money.
My first kind of proper job,
I suppose when I was like a,
doing a Saturday boy job and,
uh,
or Friday or Saturday was,
I worked in um,
the supermarket which in those days were called Safeways.
I don't know where the Safeways are still around now.
But they,
they were,
they were probably one of the bigger supermarkets back then.

(03:00):
And my job was to stack the shelves to help people pack their bags and then to go out with another guy around the town and collect all the trolleys and bring them back.
So we'd have these huge holy trolley trains of about,
I don't know about 100 trolleys that we were maneuvering across the street to get back.
And of course,

(03:20):
in those days,
we didn't have sort of 24 hour supermarkets or anything.
So we closed at six o'clock,
we opened at nine o'clock or something.
Uh So I did Friday evening after,
after school and then I did Saturday all day and that was my first proper job.
What was the work environment like?
So when you think about the people that you worked with,

(03:40):
but specifically management,
what,
what was that like in your first experience in that kind of paid job?
Um,
I,
I just remember it being great fun.
I mean,
there was a whole load of young people like me who were all working sort of Saturday and weekends and I don't think we took it hugely seriously.
I mean,
we,
we,
for all of it,
it was kind of pocket money.
So I've got no doubt the managers were pulling their hairs out because we probably weren't taking it as seriously.

(04:05):
But,
but,
you know,
they were quite strict in terms of,
you know,
when you merchandise,
when you're filling the,
the shelves up that,
that,
you know,
you made sure things faced the right way and that your uniform was clean and tidy.
And I,
and I distinctly remember one of the guys he worked with was a retired guy who,
who had been a chauffeur his whole life and then he had,

(04:25):
had a heart attack so he couldn't drive anymore.
And actually he was about 50 So he's younger than I am now.
But we thought he was ancient.
And,
um,
so we were all kind of doing this job and he was doing it with us and so he kind of kept us in check.
But yeah,
I mean,
it,
it was pretty relaxed.
They were really good with the,
the management.
I remember,
I mean,
effectively as long as you turned up on time and did what you were doing and were flexible because,

(04:49):
because we're always being moved around.
I,
I don't remember anything,
you know,
unpleasant or,
or,
um,
an anything challenging everyone got,
seemed to get on really well.
It was such a different time there and there was no such thing obviously as social media or so no one really knew anything about you other than what they found out about you,
you know,
by working with you,

(05:09):
there was no kind of back story to anybody.
And so we were all lots of different people that just kind of gelled and got on with it and,
and actually quite enjoyed it.
So,
yeah,
I,
I,
it,
it was a very positive experience.
You know,
I like a lot of things you're saying.
The first thing that popped out though is the no back story.
And there's something so beautiful about showing up and presenting yourself and we learning about the person on the job or in whatever circumstance it is instead of having some sort of preconceived notion because I've looked you up online,

(05:40):
Instagram,
linkedin,
whatever it might be,
but you're just showing up and I learn as I go and that's,
that's something very forgotten totally.
And,
and,
you know,
we all came from,
from different social economic classes in terms of,
you know,
some people were,
yeah,
I wouldn't have a clue whether someone was wealthy or poor or what their family background was or what school they went to or who their friends were.

(06:05):
We just kind of were thrown together and kind of got on with it.
And,
uh,
yeah,
I mean,
I mean,
you know,
social,
that whole kind of concept was just not even on anyone's agenda.
No one,
no one would ever really pry into your back story or your,
you know,
you know,
where do you come from or?
Because it just,
it just had no relevance to anyone.
Yeah.
And another thing that you mentioned is,

(06:26):
you know,
what are you thinking about that management?
And maybe you haven't thought too much about it.
And usually we don't when things are running smoothly,
right,
when things are running as they ought to,
when,
you know,
there are these standards.
So you're,
your outfit ought to be a certain sort of way.
And the merchandizing goes a certain way.
But then there's flexibility and all of these things are working as they ought to.

(06:49):
And so the management just sort of fades into the background.
A lot of times we notice management when things are terribly wrong or somebody really is speaking into our lives and mentoring us.
But I think by and large when the structures and the organizational,
the people in the organization are doing as they ought to be doing and things are running smoothly,

(07:11):
it's,
it's invisible to us.
Yeah,
I think,
I think that,
um,
and I think we were only there for a short period of time.
You know,
we see everything that went on and probably the manager pop,
I would imagine the manager wasn't even there on a Saturday.
It was probably,
you know,
he probably took the weekend off.
But,

(07:32):
uh,
yeah,
I mean,
I imagine,
I mean,
it was,
you know,
it was probably a lot more complex than we imagined all the deliveries that would come in and go out and all the other bits of that.
But,
um,
you know,
we didn't really have computers.
So,
so everything was manually reported and what have you and,
and it,
you know,
it probably sounds strange to people listening to your,
your podcast who are from a different age.
But,

(07:52):
you know,
you know,
pricing was with a,
with,
with this particular kind of a pricing gun which was so basic and,
you know,
the,
the deliverers would come and you'd dare be with a pen and paper ticking off.
Counting were,
and there was no barcodes or anything of that nature.
So it was,
it was a much more simple way of doing things.
Probably,
there were probably less things that could go wrong as well because there was less technical aspects involved in it.

(08:17):
So there were less things that went wrong.
You know,
the,
the most significant thing would be a shoplifter or something.
Um,
and that would be,
you know,
dealt with fairly swiftly and,
and,
and that would be,
but because there was so little to go wrong in the term,
you know,
or the lift would break down as an example.
We had a lift that used to go down into the car park.
That would be a problem because people carrying their shopping or their,

(08:38):
what have you,
you know,
we could walk around if we needed to.
But that was probably about as technical as it got,
you know.
So if the lifts were broken that,
you know,
then we would all help customers with their shopping et cetera.
But other than that,
life was pretty simple and the job was pretty simple.
There was nothing to really learn technically.
So I guess there was less things to go wrong.
Therefore there was less kind of management intrusion and less prices happening.

(09:02):
Yeah,
it's really interesting to us as something that it's gonna be,
we're gonna be more efficient,
things are gonna run more smoothly.
And of course,
sometimes that is the case but also with any layer of technology,
you add its own problems.
And uh the,
I think the more moving parts,

(09:23):
the more possibility of a kind of breakdown because when we look at management systems or just the technological age that we're in it,
it is sold to us as this is an improvement.
And the question that a lot of times we don't ask is,
is it an improvement?
It is different but is it,
is it better?
What has been made better and what has been displaced?

(09:43):
It's a question.
We don't ask ourselves too much and we,
I don't think we reflect on how that affects human individuals at work,
right?
So what is it like to be a person at work?
And how is the technology helping us empower our in the people who are working here,
who are our greatest asset because the people in your organization will make it or break it.

(10:06):
So how is that technology actually speaking into them?
And,
and I,
I remember us all being busy as well.
We were all we all knew what we had to do.
We all had specific tasks that we were required to do.
And so,
you know,
if you,
some of the more full time employees would be,
would have greater responsibility and greater tasks or interesting task potentially.

(10:28):
But there was no,
there was no one that was kind of hanging around and waiting for something to,
you know,
for a piece of software to load or,
or something.
We,
we were all kind of just busy doing what we were doing.
And,
and as you said,
you know,
it was a pretty finely run machine and therefore,
you know,
there weren't huge issues.
We all knew when the manager were on the shop floor,

(10:49):
you know,
and everyone kind of behaved a bit better and,
and what have you,
but the manager would,
you know,
the store manager would,
would help pack bags if there was a queue.
Um So,
you know,
it,
the management were,
were very hands on.
I,
I can,
you know,
remember when there were queues at Christmas and times like that,
you know,
they would get stuck in and,
and help pack bags and push trolleys and because it was all about just serving the customers and getting in and out of that shop quickly and obviously spending as much money and,

(11:15):
and so,
so I just think it was a very different time and we can always look back on it on rose tinted glasses.
I'm sure I'm sure there was a lot of wasted time in terms.
Of some of the bureaucratic bean counting and what have you,
that,
that they had to do.
But,
um,
from my perspective as a kind of,
you know,
packer and a pusher of trolleys,
it wasn't overly complicated and I certainly wasn't,

(11:36):
uh you know,
the,
the most complicated thing was,
was probably,
you know,
fitting the,
the,
the price gun to,
to price up things and that was probably it.
So,
uh so it,
it probably was a lot um simpler than I imagined.
And yet at the same time,
while we do live in a different time,
it seems to me what you're,
some of the things that you are remembering are what we want today.

(11:57):
We want our managers,
our leaders to really be a part of the team to really,
you know,
everybody's pushing forward on the mission of the organization.
And sometimes that means you're doing tasks that aren't traditionally assigned to you,
uh because you're doing maybe other high level things,
but this is what is needed and for the staff to see that,

(12:18):
that,
you know,
it,
it,
it where,
you know,
who is in charge.
But a lot of times,
of course,
power really,
power is not holding to this particular sort of status,
power is being able to do what is needed.
And it's straightening up a little bit when the boss is around but not changing the tenor entirely because of course,

(12:40):
sometimes when the boss is around people scurry out of fear.
And anyway,
so a lot of the things that you talked about and of course,
your perspective as a young person,
when you're doing something for pocket money and as you said,
you're only there on weekends is different and yet there's a certain feel that people get in organizations.
I mean,
it's interesting.
I had a,
we've had some kind of technical problems which we've had to try and resolve and I found it extraordinarily frustrating that too often.

(13:11):
We,
you know,
every company has somebody you can speak to and they want to sell you something.
But when there's a problem,
there's no one to talk to,
they just resort to,
oh,
you have to have a ticket or you have to have an email and it becomes very,
almost adversarial because,
you know,
the emails I was getting,
they weren't,
you know,
they,
they would take,
we would put a question in and the reply would come back half an hour later and it wasn't quite right and it,

(13:35):
you know,
so people get,
I think,
frustrated and irritated and,
um,
probably get quite difficult at times or perceived to be difficult because they're not getting a very good service.
Whereas when I look back and I,
you know,
and,
and I,
and I think I,
if there was a problem,
we just went to a person and dealt with the problem.
And funny enough,
my wife said to me today we were talking about,

(13:56):
we're gonna change some of our companies we work with in terms of the technical side.
And I,
and I said to her,
I only wanna work with a company that's got somebody who will actually speak to me when something goes wrong.
I,
I don't want to speak to a court to,
I don't want to have a ticket.
I don't wanna communicate by emails or chat boxes or anything else.
I actually want a person who wants to solve the problem in the same way they do,

(14:17):
they want when they wanna sell me the product.
So I do think things have changed that,
that it,
it kind of speaks to,
to the,
to the issue that we're far more,
you know,
we're far more personally invested in selling you something.
But are they saying that because we get so much wrong,
we can't cope with the complaints.
Therefore,
we have to do this different system.

(14:38):
Um,
but it,
but it just ii,
I felt it yesterday,
I felt,
you know,
I,
I deal in that world of kind of workplace violence and,
and toxic workplaces and I felt myself getting irritated and I felt myself being frustrated with the person who's supposed to be helping me,
but actually was being almost unhelpful and was almost felt like being obstructive.

(15:01):
And so,
you know,
I think there's something missing there around this fear of actually having a human relationship.
And I think the best companies are the ones that still will have a number,
you can phone,
you can,
somebody will pick up the phone and they will try and help you and they may not,
you know,
and even if they can't help you there and then they can explain it properly,

(15:23):
you can have a conversation with them.
And I think that breaks an awful lot of that hostility down because,
because we all get so frustrated by the kind of technological solutions that frankly don't work most of the time.
That is such a brilliant observation that it is just so true when we're entering an organization or of course,
they're trying to sell something to us.

(15:44):
It's,
you know,
it's all smiles and they're very present and you,
they're engaged because they're giving,
you know,
they want something from you.
But then once you're a part of the system,
it seems like they should still want to keep you.
But I,
I think about that in work environments.
Right.
So when you're being onboarded or you are contributing in a way that the organization wants,

(16:05):
it's all smiles and roses and rainbows.
But as soon as there's a problem,
it is crickets or less than crickets.
It's now it is adversarial.
It's us versus you and where are you supposed to go?
And I think it is a,
should be a strategic priority for every organization of how we deal with conflicts and mistakes because you are going to have them.

(16:25):
I mean,
I,
I guarantee you will have conflicts and mistakes.
So we know that.
So let's plan for it and what you're talking about in a humane way because we're humans.
Yeah.
And it's interesting,
I,
I spent,
um,
I spent 30 years in the metropolitan police which is the,
um,
you know,
the largest police force,
a London police force.
And about,
uh,
I don't know,
1015 years ago we were going through,

(16:48):
uh,
a huge change in our economy in the UK and our budgets were being slashed sh you know,
significantly.
And one of the first things they got rid of was human resources departments and they outsourced it.
So,
whereas once upon a time you'd have a human resource professional in your station.
And as a manager,

(17:09):
I could go and talk to that person and get some advice about how to deal with the problem or what is the,
what are the regulations or laws about how I deal with this issue?
And I could get back the next day and have the same conversation with the same person or continue that conversation with the same person.
And,
you know,
equally if I had a problem with a manager,
I could again go and get advice and then we swapped that for a scenario where it was a call center and there was little or no personal interaction,

(17:36):
there was little or no continuity of engagement.
And all of a sudden we saw our complaints and our problems going up gradually,
but they continued to go up and the cost of them going up in terms of absenteeism,
in terms of,
um,
what we in the UK,
certainly call industrial tribunals.

(17:56):
So when an individual sues their company,
we're going up quite straight,
slight,
uh,
significantly.
And so any of the savings that were made by getting rid of this really personal service that was crucial,
I think were lost by the c the problems it caused.
And,
you know,
I think too often we,

(18:17):
we're very equipped to outsource things because we,
we see there's an initial saving there,
but actually the longer term,
the longer,
you know,
to uh cost of these issues,
particularly when we're talking about crisis and grievances and problems at work,
which we are seeing increasingly,
you know,
I just did the figures last week.

(18:38):
I think the UK,
the UK account for workplace violence of around about £25 billion per year costing the UK economy now that's going up and it's going up for different reasons and as the economy goes down,
those issues go up as well.
So,
you know,
the,
the the short term gains of let's get rid of hr let's outsource this,

(19:01):
let's let's do things that make short-term savings when they are impacting people,
particularly the people that work with you and are gonna and are problem solvers.
It always strikes me as being a really dangerous journey to go down because I think it will out,
out without doubt cost us more money in the long run.

(19:21):
But then the impact it has on the individuals who the best people will leave.
That's the reality,
the,
the best people will,
will leave.
We know that disgruntled people will stay in the economy because they don't necessarily feel that they can find a new job that will pay them the same amount of money.
Um,
so they'll stay where they are.
They're therefore not,
but they don't really buy into the company.

(19:41):
So they're more likely to do things like,
you know,
press on a link or download something they shouldn't do or,
or leak information or what have you.
And so,
you know,
we're getting this huge problem with toxic workplaces and it's causing,
you know,
you know,
in the age of social media,
when an individual can go onto X or Instagram or whatever and publicize how badly they've been treated at work.

(20:04):
Even if it's not true,
the reputational harm is,
is,
is something you have to try and recapture.
So I think we,
we've got to,
we've got to refocus on this whole concept of,
you know,
yes,
a business is about making money,
but in order to make money and do it,

(20:25):
well,
you need to look after people and if you don't look after people it is gonna bite you and it could bankrupt you.
Um,
and so I think,
I think we need a kind of reset and a and A and a AAA real recognition.
Again of the importance that people play in businesses,
of all descriptions,
whether they're public sector or or private sector,

(20:45):
hospitals,
schools,
what have you.
And that is where technology can't replace everything because you do need someone who can actually sit down and actually understand and actually say,
OK,
let's see how we can solve this problem.
There is a clear grievance here that you're clearly upset about something.
How do we move forward?
How do we resolve this issue?
Because we've invested £20,000 just to employ you.

(21:08):
Um Not,
not even including the training and everything else just purely to employ you.
So we don't want you to go,
we don't want you to,
to go off and work with somebody else because we've invested.
And I,
and I think we're losing that in terms of,
I think people just see employees as commodities and assets and,
you know,
well,
we can just replace them.
We'll get someone better and we'll get someone younger,

(21:30):
we'll get someone,
you know,
who,
who,
who fits a different demographic or something.
And,
you know,
I,
I personally believe if you tap into people,
you'll find there's always more there,
but you've just gotta,
you've gotta invest in them in some respect in order for them to reveal it to you.
Um And if they're not invested,
if they don't feel part of it,

(21:51):
they don't feel invested they don't feel valued,
then they'll just come and do their job and walk away at the end of the day and that will be it.
Um And it just becomes a kind of ma you know,
like a factory conveyor belt system.
Um So I think as we advance very quickly and when everyone's obsessed by A I and technology because they think it will do everything quicker and better,
I think we need to just kind of recognize that that isn't always the case.

(22:15):
And actually,
you know,
yy,
we've got people to look after our customers are people.
So why wouldn't we want people to serve people?
Absolutely.
Uh I have a basic principle about technology that I've taught about technology for a long time in my work as a philosopher.
And my basic principle is that technology is there to help us,
right?
And so every piece of technology should serve us and we don't serve it.

(22:40):
And so when you look at a piece of technology,
how is this actually encouraging human flourishing?
That should be the question.
But we do love the new,
right?
And so certainly America and most of the West is in a love affair with technology.
And if it's new,
it's better.
Well,
of course,
it's not true,
it might be better,
it might be worse.
It might be this just displacement where we don't gain or lose anything.

(23:02):
But we really do need to think about,
as you've said,
how do we partner with technology?
So the technology should be there for the humans,
for everything to run smoother,
whether there are external clients or we could,
you know,
the people who actually work in the organization,
how is this chatbot actually functionally making this person's life better,

(23:24):
right?
If it's not,
it's gonna cost you money as you pointed out,
even though you thought I saved money because I had,
I got to replace this person.
Well,
you know,
we have this problem of quiet quitting.
We have this problem of disengagement,
which it's really hard to put a dollar number on what didn't happen,
what products weren't developed,
what customer didn't come to us because of what they read on whatever website.

(23:50):
But that is a lot of what a company can actually control how they treat the people who work there.
And so we are not going to be able to control everybody who leaves an organization.
People leave for a variety of reasons,
but unnecessary people going to different organizations or,
or leaving our company because of a toxic work environment because they don't feel cared for because it's just so frustrating,

(24:14):
poor management.
Those are things within our control that we could decide to do something differently today.
And so Philip,
my question for you is,
it's absolutely clear,
I think to both of us why it's co it saves money for organizations to really invest in conflict management and all of these sorts of,
um,
internal protections and really taking care of employees and customers and not only financially but it's the moral thing to do to really be concerned with the health and well being of people.

(24:47):
So why aren't companies doing it?
Cos I think they focus on the bottom line,
they focus on the finances as the be all and everything.
You know,
when,
when,
um,
times are difficult and we will tighten our belts,
businesses,
tighten their belts too.
And I think the thing that often goes first are often the things that are sometimes the most valuable and I mean,

(25:12):
things like training,
see things like hr those kind of things where you can't put a dollar,
you can't put a dollar sign on it.
But how much does that training?
How much does it cost us?
What sort of return on investment?
Well,
I don't know really.
I mean,
it's not instant.
Well,
let's get rid of it cos we're gonna shut all short term costs down.
So let's get rid of all the things that aren't making us money right now.

(25:35):
And so I think we go into this whole kind of short termism perspective around,
um,
you know,
around,
we need to shut everything down.
That's,
that's not making us money.
Um,
because we only,
you know,
we,
we've got to tighten our belts and,
and I get that,
I understand that.
I just think sometimes it's those short term strategies that will get people in trouble.

(25:55):
Um,
and I think that,
you know,
the world is very different now.
We,
we seem to be particularly,
you know,
the,
the western world,
particularly the US and particularly the UK,
in many ways in that we become very binary.
People are either right or they're wrong.
They're either on this person's side or that person's side.
And so we,
we seem to end up in more conflicts because the art of agreeing to disagree or,

(26:19):
or just having a,
a reasoned debate and actually being able to say,
listen,
I don't agree with anything you say.
So,
help me understand why you think the way you do.
You know,
no one ever does that,
you know,
so these conflicts spiral out of oo of,
of,
of control.
Um but,
and business,
you know,
at the end of the day,

(26:40):
you know,
when you go into business,
the first thing you're told is the purpose of a business to make money.
It isn't to contribute to the society.
It isn't to,
to provide its customers with something or provide the community with jobs.
Its purpose is to make money cos if it doesn't make money,
it goes bankrupt.
If it doesn't,
if you don't make money,
you're a charity.
So the,

(27:00):
the kind of ideology of a business is,
is,
has changed,
I think.
But also I think,
you know,
when,
you know,
if,
if you,
you know,
you go into a shop and,
and the person behind the shop,
behind the counter in the shop is kind of disinterested.
So you walk in and you buy one thing and you pay for one thing and you walk out if you go into a shop where someone's interested and it's maybe even their shop,

(27:22):
but not always.
But they've got some personality.
What have you,
you know,
you buy one thing and they'll try and sell you two or three other actually.
Have you seen this?
We've got these new products or we haven't got that,
but we've got this as opposed to have you got this?
No,
we're out of stock,
you know,
so,
so we,
we,
you know,
we,
by those human interactions,
we can be,

(27:43):
we can be more helpful to the customers and make more money.
But ii,
I just think that we,
um the communities and societies,
it's become the haves and the haves nots that the difference between the wealthy and the poor is ever growing.
Um,
you know,
I know that,
you know,
looking from the outside of the US,
the homelessness in the US seems to be going up beyond all possibilities.

(28:04):
And,
you know,
whenever I'm in the US,
I'm always quite shocked at the amount and,
and,
and the con the,
the,
the,
the condensation of all the homeless communities that are out there,
the kind of forgotten people.
Um,
you know,
we have similar but not quite so bad in the UK,
we have a national health service.
So everyone gets healthcare free of charge,
which makes a huge difference.

(28:26):
You know,
the rich people don't really ever see the poor people because they live in different parts of the,
of the town or the country or what have you and they,
they drive to work and they're blacked out limousines looking at their phone or their laptop and don't actually see what's going on around them.
Never really interact with it at all.
So they don't really understand it or recognize it or think it's their problem.
Um So I think some things change quite dramatically in our communities and the way that uh I,

(28:49):
in the way that we all interact and,
and the way that we treat people,
you know,
not just at work,
but every day and therefore that's going to spin into work because if you're the homeless guy that,
that,
that hasn't got a home and therefore can't give an address,
well,
then you can't get a job.
And so,
you know,
that person might only need one step up and all of a sudden their life is back on track.

(29:11):
But,
but if it's no,
no,
you haven't got an address.
Therefore we can give you a job.
That's the end of the conversation.
Not OK.
Well,
listen,
let's see.
Can we work around this?
Is there somewhere we could give an address?
Could,
could the,
could a shelter perhaps be your address or something?
So,
II I don't know,
I just think we need to,
I,
I guess just care a little bit more.
Sounds really basic.
I don't,
it,
but I just wonder whether we just need to stop being so busy and,

(29:35):
and maybe just take a breath and think about,
I wonder why that person's so grumpy today.
You know?
I wonder why they're so angry today or so bitter or so difficult to get on with today.
I wonder why that person's who's always been quite,
you know,
lovely person.
I wonder why suddenly something's changed.

(29:56):
And actually,
you know,
there's a,
I mean,
I,
I don't know whether you're familiar with it,
but we just,
you know,
there's a,
we've had a show in the UK called Ted Lasso,
which is,
which is a,
um,
which you might,
you can tell on your face,
you know about it.
And there's this great line,
isn't there in the first episode,
I think where he said,
you know,
be more curious and less judgmental.
And I just kind of,
it really struck me that line and I thought,

(30:16):
do you know what I'm gonna try that?
I'm gonna,
I think cos it's so easy to be judgmental when,
when you're lucky,
you've got lots of stuff.
I thought,
no,
I'm gonna try and be more curious about things because,
because when you were young,
that's what you were,
you know,
kids,
you always joke about kids,
never stop asking questions and,
you know,
oh God not another bloody question but,
but actually maybe that's like if we were all a bit more curious and said,

(30:36):
you know,
I wonder why she's,
she's behaving like that today cos that's not normally how she is.
What's,
what's going on there.
But I don't think we have that.
And I think,
you know,
I think if we all followed the ted lasso school of management and we're more curious and less judgmental,
I think we'd,
we'd probably get on quite well.
I absolutely agree.
Curiosity is such a powerful tool.

(30:58):
It costs us nothing.
But actually we benefit so much because many times in a conflict or something happens out of the ordinary and maybe somebody bites at us or whatever,
we end up taking it personally.
But that is a choice,
right?
And I think the more we think about,
I've chosen to take it this way instead of thinking about the other person,
right?

(31:19):
So the more we think about the community,
maybe in a communitarian kind of way about our duties and responsibilities to others instead of just what we are owed and become curious about why somebody is living in a certain circumstance or acting in a certain kind of way.
Curiosity is,
is the road map to solving issues.

(31:39):
And the first thing it does,
it,
it helps our own attitude and put it is empowering because when I get curious,
then I can think about,
well,
what can I do next or what ought I do next?
Instead of a disempowering position of somebody is doing something to me and I'm being threatened.
And so the curiosity I think is a way to,

(32:00):
to see that other people's issues are not always about us and usually it is largely about them.
And another point that you were talking about,
made me think about,
you know,
what's going on in our culture in general.
And we pretty much do live in a disposable society.
Um A lot of it is,
you know,
post industrial revolution and mechanization and things they,

(32:22):
they come in and they're not made to be fixed.
It costs more many times to fix something than just to replace it.
And I wonder if that attitude has spilled over into the US versus them.
And so,
you know,
this binary of,
you're right,
I'm wrong.
It's black,
it's white instead of we are people and we have good days and bad days and we,

(32:43):
I can't be reduced to a political stance or something that I did five years ago or a tragedy that I've had or even a success that I had.
But we are whole individuals and that's how we want to be treated right as whole individuals and not just reduced to some sort of,
you know,
position and,

(33:03):
and if we can start doing that and having conversations,
then as you said,
um you said a little bit back that there's more to get out of employees,
we're,
we're more than just one thing.
And if we stop and think about the whole person in front of me,
how the benefit is the,
the,
the,
the organization is going to benefit and the individual benefits when they are seen,

(33:27):
when you're seen you are more likely to contribute and you're going to be more curious which is going to lead to more better products and services.
Yeah,
100%.
And I think,
um,
it was interesting actually,
you touching on the,
uh,
the kind of throwaway society cos there was,
there was a,
there was a documentary on yesterday or the day before here in the UK around,
around recycling and how they are seeing um,

(33:50):
more and more small electrical goods that are less than a year old but are broken and they're not fixable because it's not financially worth fixing them because it's,
you know,
$20 you can buy it on Amazon.
It'll be there in half an hour and the other one gets thrown away.
And then this whole scenario about,
ok,
well,
how do we recycle all this stuff because not everyone has a car so not everyone can get to the recycling place.

(34:15):
So we have to bring the recycling to you somehow because if we want you to partake in this,
we've gotta understand your needs,
not assume that you're gonna come to us.
And in a way that's kind of,
I suppose there's a sort of metaphor there isn't there around,
you know,
not assuming everyone's gonna meet us where it suits us.
Sometimes you've gotta meet other people where it suits them.

(34:37):
And,
um,
it,
it kind of struck me that,
but around that,
you know,
that thing about,
you know,
we can't make decisions based on our lives.
We've gotta make them based on the other person's life we're trying to influence because I don't live the same life as them.
And so,
um yyy,
you know,
II,
I was watching AAA Cookery show the other night and it was somebody cooking and,

(34:59):
and she was,
she was um gluten intolerant.
So she didn't make anything with gluten in it.
And all the,
the,
the um people who were judging it were saying if only you'd made something like this and she goes,
yeah,
but I don't eat that and they were saying no,
but we do and you were cooking for us,
not for you.
You know,
I think we need to just kind of somehow get back and I don't know whether we ever will but somehow get back to kind of human interaction and kindness.

(35:23):
And,
and um,
you know,
there's,
there's my,
my kind of career towards the end of my policing career,
there was a British,
my kind of what I do now was influenced very much by a,
by the murder of a British politician.
And she was a young female politician called Jo Cox.
And I never had the pleasure of knowing Jo.

(35:43):
But I know her sister very,
very well.
But Jo,
Jo is famous for s for having this speech where she said,
when we look at each other,
we'll find that we have more in common than divides us.
And I think the challenge is,
is that we focus on our differences rather than our similarities.
Too.
Often.
We focus on the fact that we're different religions or different colors or different sexes or,

(36:07):
or different whatever rather than actually the fact that there's far more in common we have and if we perhaps focused on those elements,
um,
life might be a bit easier for everybody.
Uh,
and I,
and I,
you know,
I think,
I think sometimes the simple and I'm not,
you know,
I'm not,
we're not reinventing the wheel or,
or,
you know,

(36:27):
creating some great a I mystery.
I think it's just basic things that we seem to have forgotten along along this brush.
If you like to,
to,
uh,
to make money to,
to,
to have more,
to,
you know,
because if you're wealthy,
you're seen as a better person because you must be more successful.

(36:49):
Whereas if you're less wealthy,
you're seen as not a,
not a successful person because we judge success by wealth.
But if we look at some of the wealthiest people in the world,
you think,
well,
really,
I don't really wanna be like that.
So why do we hold that as the measure in this world as being success.
Um And so maybe we need to,
you know,
again,
you know,
we can reconfigure what do we mean by success?

(37:11):
Cos does it have to be wealth?
Does it have to be rich?
You know,
people,
all the books,
I've got lots of books on success and it's all about making money.
It's all about having more,
it's not about being more.
Um,
and so,
you know,
I just wonder whether we need to,
you know,
we,
on these techno or the computers we've got,
whenever something breaks,
we have this thing,
don't we?
Where we turn it off and we start again and we press reset or we,

(37:34):
you know,
the computer's broken,
turn it off,
reset it,
it'll work now and maybe that's what we need to do,
have a kind of reset button for all of us and say,
look,
things aren't working.
We're gonna turn this all off,
switch us back on again and we're gonna start again now and be nice and,
and,
you know,
have a set of values that don't necessarily include how rich you are or,
you know,
how,
how,
how,
whatever you are.

(37:55):
But,
um,
yeah,
I mean,
I'm,
it,
it's a,
it's a philo philosophical conversation but,
uh,
um,
it,
it,
it,
when you break it down,
it doesn't always seem that,
that difficult but it,
it seems to be difficult in the real world.
Yes.
You know,
there's a couple of things that came to mind.
One is he who dies with the most toys wins.

(38:15):
You know,
and I know is,
you know,
a time and time again when people are on their death bed and you know,
what is it that they talk about or at a eulogy?
It's not usually this person was the best worker.
It's this person loved fiercely,
this person cared for me.
This person spoke to my life and that's what we remember.
We remember how people made us feel.

(38:37):
We remember and cherish those connections that we have.
And I firmly believe that the quality of our life has to do with how well we love and are loved.
It's our relationships and we are enmeshed in a network of relationships.
And if we pay attention to that,
how well do I care for others and care is particular because what it means to care for you may look different than what it means to care for me.

(39:03):
But that is that human aspect.
That means I have to know you and invest in you.
But I also have to be known by you this reciprocal altruism of caring and the more you care,
of course,
the more successful you're going to be.
And and I've often heard it said of people who are wealthy um that you know,

(39:24):
the good thing about having money,
at least,
you know that that's not happiness,
right?
Other people are under the illusion that if I have more then I'll be happy.
But people who have money,
what it will afford you is that,
that's not what it is.
You can get rid of that,
check that off the box.
Now,
of course,
we want to have our basic needs met,
but we're not talking about that.

(39:45):
We're talking about success as having all of this affluence.
Where,
what does that really mean?
What is richness,
richness is,
you know,
uh But it,
but it's sold,
isn't it?
If,
you know,
if you,
if you were to ask most people what success is they would,
they would probably quantify it in terms of wealth,

(40:06):
particularly in the western world.
And it's very easy when you're wealthy to say,
oh,
money is not important.
Money is not,
makes the money isn't what makes me happy really?
Well,
I bet you're happening with your report because if you can't feed yourself when you,
you know,
you've got nowhere to live and you,
you know,
you,
you can't get medicine for your kids,
then you're not gonna feel happy.
Um So I think it's,

(40:27):
you know,
it's,
it's,
I'm sure we'd all love to experience that wealth where we can say,
oh,
no,
money doesn't matter.
I,
I it doesn't make me happy,
you know.
You know,
I,
but it still be the beacon that we hold up to mean success across the western world.
Um And it's because they have more toys and it's because their lives are more comfortable.

(40:48):
And,
um,
you know,
it,
it,
it's,
does,
it mean that poor people can't be happy?
Of course,
it doesn't.
There are lots of people that are,
that don't have huge wealth that are blissfully happy.
And you can look at,
you know,
monks and nuns and people who've got deep religious views who are very happy that don't have wealth.

(41:09):
But still we sell it as a measure of success.
And of course,
when you,
when you go back on school reunions or anything like that,
people are almost judging you by that metric as well.
So where do you live now?
And,
and they're really ticking things off.
And so,
you know,
you know,
what's the car do you drive now?
And are you married with kids or,
you know,
where do you,
you know,
where was your last holiday?
And all these things really are kind of kind of measuring tools just to sort of allow us to see.

(41:34):
Well,
where do you fit in compared to me?
You know,
how,
how,
you know,
how successful are you and all that?
So,
I,
I don't think we're ever gonna change that.
I think,
you know,
I think that's,
that's just the way we're programmed as human beings in terms of,
you know,
once upon a time it was how big and strong you work as it was about survival.
Um,
and money now is a mechanism to survive.

(41:55):
And yes,
we get lots of rich people who don't survive cos they exploit it or they,
they don't manage it well,
et cetera.
But,
um,
it is,
it is the mechanism of success.
We,
we,
we're not gonna change that.
But,
you know,
I think when you,
when you're looking at every day to day person,
when they go to work,
what do they really want?

(42:16):
Well,
they want to be treated fairly,
they wanna be treated well,
they want to get,
you know,
rewarded appropriately and they wanna be safe and they wanna enjoy what they're doing.
You know,
if they can get some,
you know,
I mean,
anyone really wants to do a job that,
that's just mundane and just,
you know,
they turn up at what time,
go home next time and then they switch off their brain for eight.
I don't,

(42:37):
I don't think people ever aspire to do that.
They,
they may fall into that trap but,
but,
you know,
I think,
um,
you know,
particularly in the US where,
you know,
the violence in workplaces and the,
the,
the,
the risks at schools and,
you know,
various shootings and we all know across the people that have studied it that they're still relatively rare,

(42:59):
but a lot of people are still very scared of these things because the level of publicity they get and because,
you know,
companies are,
are rehearsing and practicing for these,
these sort of things.
So it's front of people's minds but,
you know,
people,
people's relationship with work has changed over the last five years with COVID and people are working from home now,

(43:19):
they don't wanna go into work.
Um,
so those relationships break down equally if they don't feel safe,
going to work.
Well,
why would you wanna go to work if,
if people there aren't very nice to you or your manager's not very nice or you think when you go there you're not gonna be safe.
So there's,
there's kind of lots of complex issues around how society changes and how,
and it's always changed,

(43:40):
you know,
but we're going through quite a seismic shift in terms of how we work.
And that's something that probably hasn't happened since the industrial revolution when,
you know,
the machines replace the worker.
Um We're going through a kind of similar phase,
I guess,
and people are gonna have to somehow re educate themselves and,

(44:02):
and,
and cross skill and,
and be more flexible and variable about how they can add value because the likelihood is there aren't gonna be as many jobs as there once were.
But how do we as a society manage that?
Because if we,
if we end up having whole elements of our society that just don't have anything cos they can't get a job and there's no system to manage them and look after them,

(44:25):
then of course they will return to the sort of root causes of survival o which often involve violence.
So,
you know,
it's in everyone's interest that if,
while you're,
you know,
while you're running away towards the rainbow of success,
you know,
you need to keep your eye over your shoulder because,
because if you leave people behind,
then don't be surprised when they come after you at some point.

(44:46):
Yes,
we a rising,
a rising tide brings all boats up.
Right?
And so if we think about just getting our own,
it's,
it's to our own detriment.
It should be about me and you us together.
So,
Philip Bullet,
tell us,
tell us a little bit about how you got into policing.
I know this is a long story arc.
How you got in and then how you,

(45:07):
you left to start your own business.
Diffuses.
So I,
I,
um,
I joined the,
uh,
the,
the metro police in London,
having left the British Army.
Um,
it was quite a normal way.
I think it still is and particularly in the U si think a lot of veterans joined law enforcement in the US.
Um,
I had 30 years in the police in the police,
um,

(45:27):
had a,
had a very varied career predominantly as a detective went up the ranks to,
to,
I think what you call a lieutenant equivalent to the rank and works on homicide teams and terrorism teams and various different other teams and doing specialist crime investigations.
So some of the more unpleasant stuff that,

(45:47):
that,
that policing is there to deal with.
I didn't spend very long in uniform doing um kind of routine street work.
I,
I was kind of specialized most of my career but it really changed as I say,
when,
when Jo Cox was killed and I was,
I was asked to go into,
into the,
into the UK parliament to set up and run as a small team,

(46:08):
which effectively was a workplace violence team.
Although we,
we never called it that it wasn't a phrase we ever used,
but it was to look at and,
and investigate all the threats and the abuse and the,
and the um the harassment and the intimidation that politicians were getting and also to uh manage all of their security,

(46:29):
their,
their um physical security outside when they,
when they were on their way home,
et cetera on their homes and uh effectively stop the next attack.
And um I was very fortunate that uh I was doing a,
a master's degree at the time.
So I,
I changed my dissertation to look at,
you know,
how are people targeted.
And um it won't surprise you to know that most of the research emanates from the US.

(46:53):
Um And I was very fortunate I got invited to Harvard to Harvard University to talk on threats to female politicians globally.
And um you know,
I have to say,
you know,
it was a real eye opener for me,
the whole experience around really understanding how differently women are targeted to men and how differently women experience the world generally from a risk perspective than I do as a man.

(47:18):
You know,
in simple things about,
you know,
when a woman leaves a bar of an evening,
when,
when a man leaves a bar of an evening,
he's probably looking for a taxi.
Um,
when a woman leaves a bar of an evening,
she's looking for a risk and men don't understand that because it's not what we do.
And so women just have a completely different relationship with the world than men because of the nature of how it it is in terms of,

(47:43):
from a safety perspective,
from a fairness perspective,
from,
from,
from lots of different perspectives.
Um But while I was out in the U SI,
I managed to meet the people that wrote the research for the US Secret Service that changed the world of,
of protecting people from targeted attacks.
And it was that research and that methodology that I brought back into the UK which then helped to stop the next attack.

(48:09):
And I've continued on this journey of,
of,
of learning with,
with some of the real um or,
you know,
I call them heroes in,
in the US people like,
you know,
Robert Fine,
who was,
who was the guy that taught me and re Malloy and Bill Zimmerman.
And as the list goes on of,
of people who,
who,
who took me on their wings and,
and kind of coached me around this because this was kind of an unknown subject in the UK.

(48:34):
And,
um,
and so when I,
when I was coming to my,
the end of my policing career,
I knew that whatever I was gonna do next had to continue to fulfill this,
this,
um,
purpose in me,
which was,
and has always been around helping people be safer.
And that comes from my own childhood where we didn't feel safe in our family.

(48:57):
And so,
you know,
it's only been more recently when my,
I sat down with my sisters and we've talked about it and we've,
we've kind of understood why our choices and our lives around what we've done for our careers has been so,
um influenced by our own childhood.
And,
uh,
so my thing has always been around,
I like making people feel safe.
That's my thing.

(49:17):
And so money's never been the driving force.
It's always been other areas,
but clearly there,
I found identified,
there was a bit of a,
a gap in the market in the UK around this type of product and market.
And so we've evolved into that.
And again,
you know,
the concepts of workplace violence in the UK,
the term doesn't really exist and across the UK and Europe people don't really refer to it as workplace violence.

(49:41):
Um,
and I think it's because the word violence at the end doesn't really resonate.
They assume that that violent piece is what you get in America with the shootings and everything.
Else that,
you know,
what we get is the harassment and the,
the abuse and the bullying and the,
the toxic behaviors.
So there's this disconnect because people don't really see it in the same way as they do in America.

(50:03):
I mean,
as an example,
California,
I think it's just mandated that every company has to have AAA threat assessment team for workplace violence.
We don't even have that in the UK.
In fact,
you know,
I,
I met some,
some global security directors a year ago from some of the Big UK,
uh,
Big US brands that were coming over to London because they couldn't work out why they didn't have the same things in the UK.

(50:25):
Um,
and so we've,
we've really evolved into that.
I've researched the whole subject of,
you know,
the,
the impact on the rise in toxic behavior or workplace violence with the decline of the economy and how the two correlate.
And then with that,
we've built in a,
a package of understanding that,
you know,
why is it,
80% of incidents at work don't get reported?

(50:48):
That's,
that's a,
you know,
when you think the 80% of what goes on,
no one knows about companies don't realize and yet it's still costing them 15,
uh,
sorry,
20 odd billion a year in the UK.
And so we've,
I,
we've identified the reasons why they,
why they aren't being reported.
And we've inc we've,
we've developed a package that counters all those issues,

(51:09):
but also one of those elements is we teach people the research behaviors of problem people.
So when we look at people who cause problems in the workplace and escalate,
well,
what were their behaviors?
If we can,
if we can identify their behaviors,
which we've done with some friends in the US,
then we can actually share that with employees and say,

(51:30):
you know,
in simple terms,
if you experience these behaviors or you see these behaviors,
this is what we want you to report because early reporting allows us to intervene and things therefore may not escalate.
We can have those difficult conversations to say,
listen,
you've become really aggressive recently,
what,
what's going on.
Um So,

(51:51):
so that's where we are.
Now.
We're,
we're,
we're working with um with various companies and,
and uh and,
and trying to break down this,
we introduce this new way of thinking about how to deal with this subject because tradition in the UK,
it's very much around policy based and conflict management based.
And that always Chuck makes me chuckle cos I kind of think.

(52:12):
So let me get my head straight.
Someone's causing a problem and rather than dealing with that,
you're gonna teach me how to deal with that person.
No,
but that doesn't make sense.
Why aren't we just dealing with the person who's causing the problem?
We're understanding the person.
Why are you teaching me how to just deal to just kind of tolerate it.
So it,
it,
it,
it's so we're coming in from a very good perspective,

(52:32):
we're using behavioral threat management strategies around identifying behaviors of concern ident and including victims.
And then,
and then understanding how actually by,
by improving those we,
you know,
with the company benefits,
it retains its staff,
it retains its reputation,
it will make more money.
Um it'll have a happier workplace,

(52:54):
you know,
investors will want to invest,
they don't want to invest in places where there's problems.
So it's so beneficial for the organizations,
the,
the,
the C suite and the workers.
Um if,
if we have a happy place.
And so that's where we are now.
That's our project now.
And we're,
we're kind of like we're kind of like the queen bee trying to create this lovely,

(53:16):
healthy um uh bees nest of healthy worker bees that everyone's busy and getting on with it and,
and making lots of honey and but,
but enjoying life.
So,
so that's,
that's kind of simplifying where we are and what we're doing.
And,
and I think it's a very different way of approaching some of the problems.
But I'm quite keen on this sort of science based methods of understanding from a research perspective.

(53:38):
You know,
what are the issues and why are they there and how do we deal with it?
You know,
if we take the school shootings in the US as a great example,
you know,
people always say after one of these incidents has happened.
Oh,
yeah.
He's been acting a bit weird for a while now.
Well,
how come we didn't tell anyone?
You know?
So these things don't happen out of the blue.
Somebody always knows that somebody's behaving a bit off.

(53:58):
They just don't know what to report and they don't know who to report it to and they don't rarely trust whether it's gonna be taken seriously.
And so,
you know,
very rarely are these incidences.
A surprise,
these behaviors are known.
So it's about,
it's about if we can really educate people on what these behaviors are,
then we can increase the reporting.
When I went into the UK Parliament,

(54:19):
we had the same scenario.
Nobody was reporting everything.
We only found out the intelligence or the piece of information that allowed me to identify the next terrorist attack because we increased reporting by 400%.
So we are getting told everything and that's why we got that snippet of information,
which was the final piece in a jigsaw to say that's where their a their next attack is coming from.

(54:42):
So we've got to encourage people to,
to report their observations,
their concerns,
their fears,
their instincts because it's in everyone's interest to,
to,
you know,
everyone wants to go to work and come home from work.
Everyone wants to wave their kid goodbye and know they're coming back at the end of the day.
You know,
it's a human thing.
So it's in everyone's interest to play their part in that and,

(55:03):
and get involved and make us all feel safer.
And that's what we do.
I just absolutely love it when I talk about workplace conflict.
I,
I say we want early off and swiftly and justly as a workplace mediator,
I,
I,
so I taught philosophy for over 20 years and I switched careers and I thought I want to do workplace mediation and I do do that.
But when I got into that work,

(55:24):
I saw,
you know,
this bomb had gone off and all this damage had been done.
And I decided,
well,
well,
I will do that because that's needed.
What I want to do is this sort of preventative piece.
How can we empower individuals?
So it doesn't escalate to this.
So it escalated and we're dealing with a year of escalation.
But if we had empowered people and taught them and as you said,

(55:44):
given them a place to report or a place to get help.
When there is a problem,
then all of this harm could have been prevented.
First and foremost,
most important to me is the human toil.
But of course,
that toll is taken on the whole organization which hurts humans as well.
So empowering people,
giving them a voice training them that when you feel something,

(56:06):
say something so that so that we can deal with something,
it's so much easier to deal with something that is small.
The first time this happens or now it's a pattern the second time.
OK,
let's,
let's do something.
But I have found that people are afraid of being labeled petty or high maintenance or a problem.
And so I think it is up to us to change that narrative,

(56:29):
to empower individuals and give them the continual skills so that they can really think about um that everybody plays a part,
everybody plays a part in having the best kind of work environment possible.
It's too,
too often.
We look back and say,
you know,
as I just mentioned,
you know.
Yeah,
he was always a bit weird.

(56:49):
Well,
what did you do about it?
Did you ever talk to the bloke?
Did you ever work out what was going on in his life?
Did you ever understand?
You know,
did your manager ever speak to him or was your manager so busy running around trying to get promoted?
They didn't bother actually speaking to anyone.
You know,
we've gotta have,
we've gotta,
we've gotta break down the barriers and actually just start engaging with each other again because this isn't gonna just stop on its own.
And so,

(57:09):
so we have to be proactive around it.
And,
you know,
we used to say to the politicians when I dealt with them in it isn't your job to make the assessment about what's right and wrong.
It's your job to tell us that's our job to do that assessment.
All your job is to tell us I've had this abusive message or I've had this worrying letter or I've had this,
you know,
interaction and the same way,

(57:30):
you know,
in America where you've got these kids that are doing things and friends know about it because they've read something on social media or they've seen something,
you know,
if you just trust your instincts and think that feels a bit odd wonder why he's saying that,
you know,
I wonder why you're saying don't go to school tomorrow or I'm gonna be famous this week.
You know,
what's,
what's all that about?
You know,
if we'd just be a bit more curious.

(57:51):
Um,
and,
and,
and raised his curiosity and I don't know.
Did you see what he put on Twitter the other day?
That was a bit weird.
You know,
then maybe we might start being able to,
to solve some of these problems because when that kid does do what he does or when that employee does do what they do,
you know,
if,
if they end up going into a prison system,

(58:12):
they destroy their own family as well as everyone else's.
So it's in everyone's interest to try and get that person the help that they need and,
and sometimes it is punitive sometimes it is,
you know,
sorry,
you know,
you're out of order you need to be dealt with.
But,
but often it's the expression of,
you know,
turning,
you know,
uh mountains from Molehills.
And so if we can get there early as you say,

(58:34):
then,
um and we can understand where grievances come from and how they evolve.
If we can,
if we can,
it is much easier to solve the grievance than it is to prevent the attack.
Absolutely.
Well,
Philip,
I,
this hour has just gotten by,
I would like to end by asking you this question.

(58:54):
What do you think needs to happen in the world of work?
So that not only is everybody treated with dignity and respect,
but they're encouraged to thrive and flourish.
I think we need to remember that we are all complex people.
We've all got different issues,
different stuff going on in our lives.
But actually,
human beings exist best in communities.

(59:16):
And the reason they exist best in communities is because they engage in communities and they talk and they look out for each other and they deal with the problems that occur within those communities.
So I think within the workplace,
we need to get back into breaking down all these silos and you know,
having places where we all go and eat together or,
you know,

(59:36):
in our lunch or our breakfast or whatever it is and,
and talking and actually engaging with each other,
breaking down the barriers,
getting to know people being curious about each other and being kinder to each other.
And I think we need to go just kind of almost press that reset button,
turn it off and turn it back on again and start again,
you know,
going in on Monday and forget about what you previously thought about certain people and just see what is there,

(01:00:02):
is,
there must be something that makes you and them the same,
what is it,
what,
what is it that makes you sort of have the same problems,
you know,
you've got kids or you're both struggling with money or you've both got problems with health or whatever it might be,
but be interested and curious and kind and I think that will go a long way.
I absolutely agree.
Philip,
thank you so much for your time.

(01:00:23):
It's been an absolute delight to talk with you today.
Pleasure.
Thank you,
Philip so much for spending time with us and sharing your insights and for this amazing work that you are doing with your organization diffuse.
I really appreciate the work that you are doing to bring awareness and safety to our environments.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,

(01:00:49):
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work:
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and starts a conversation about what to do.
Instead,
you can find it on Amazon.
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.

(01:01:10):
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time,
take care.

(01:01:31):
So.