May 7, 2024 • 54 mins
🎙This week on Conflict Managed we welcome Nasoan Sheftel-Gomes, Consultant, Certified Leadership Coach, and Attorney.
Join us as we discuss:
🔥Career burnout
🔍The exhausting trap of hypervigilance
🌱The life altering power of transformative coaching
🕊Quelling anxiety in conflict situations
🚀Actively making space for new leadership
Conflict Managed is available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Nasoan Sheftel-Gomes is an attorney, leadership coach, and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging strategist. With over 16 years of experience in the nonprofit legal services sector in NYC, she has led organizational transformation, diversity, and anti-bias initiatives. Nasoan's expertise spans organizational development, program development, operations, human resources, labor management, strategic planning, and compliance.
As the founder of Transformative Leadership Collective, Nasoan coaches leaders to align with their core values, enhance self-awareness, and strengthen relationship-building skills. She believes in fostering equity-driven organizational cultures that inspire collective purpose. Nasoan specializes in facilitating difficult conversations, developing leadership skills for diverse teams, and creating transformational organizations.
Nasoan holds a JD from the City University of New York School of Law, a Master's in Journalism from the University of California Berkeley, and a bachelor's in Sociology from Clark University. She is a certified professional leadership coach and holds a Certification in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion from Cornell University. Licensed to practice law in New York, she resides in Los Angeles, CA.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services. You can find them online at 3pconflictrestoration.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.
(00:25):
So,
welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Nasoan Sheftel Gomes,
an attorney,
leadership coach,
diversity,
equity inclusion and belonging strategist.
Her expertise is in organizational development,
program development,
operations,
human resources,
(00:45):
labor management,
strategic planning and compliance.
She has led organizational transformation,
diversity and anti bias initiatives and supported leadership development within unionized and non unionized workforces.
Nasoan's passion lies in supporting the development of tomorrow's leaders to shape and grow organizations that center equity uphold anti-racism value diversity and support leadership at all levels.
(01:10):
Nasoan's consulting and coach,
business,
transformative leadership collective coaches,
leaders to examine their role in creating organizational culture and connects them within their core leadership values,
self-awareness,
resilience,
strengthens relationship building skills,
improves decision making skills and supports an equity driven organizational culture that inspires a sense of worker cohesion and collective purpose.
(01:35):
Nasoan believes good leadership requires the skills to engage in difficult conversations that further connection and understanding.
Nasoan practiced law in the nonprofit legal services sector in new York City for over 16 years as a social justice attorney at the Urban Justice Center and take root justice where she most recently interned as general counsel.
(01:55):
Nasoan has led teams of lawyers,
non lawyers and students.
She taught clinical law at NYU Law School and mentored countless student lawyers.
During her career,
Nasoan received her JD from the City University of New York School of Law,
her master's in journalism from the University of California Berkeley and her bachelor's in Sociology from Clark University.
(02:17):
She is a certified professional leadership coach and received her certification in diversity equity and inclusion through Cornell University.
She is licensed to practice law in the state of New York and lives in Los Angeles,
California.
Good morning Nasoan and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Thank you for having me and good morning.
I'm delighted to be talking with you today and to get to know you and hear all about the work that you're up to.
(02:42):
Great.
I'm really excited to talk to you.
Excellent.
So let's just begin.
And will you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
So my parents owned a store in San Francisco in the Haight,
Ashbury.
And my brother and I as kids under 13,
helped around the store.
So that was really my first job.
(03:03):
And then because I was working in the neighborhood,
other um merchants on the street became friendly with my parents.
And so I got other jobs.
So,
in,
like,
one year I had three jobs all on the same block.
Yeah,
one was at a hair salon,
one was at a retail store and the other was my parents store.
How long did you,
(03:24):
do you do those,
those sorts of jobs?
Did you do it all through high school,
or?
Yeah,
that,
that was my high school,
um,
work experience.
And,
uh,
and then in high,
in college I basically did a combination of work study,
uh food service.
Uh Really anything that I could,
(03:44):
you know,
get paid for?
I always think it's interesting when people work for their family because there's always family dynamics but then to be working for not only your family but friends of your family.
Right.
And so what did that feel like?
Did,
did you see the different dynamics or did you sort of feel like you were under the umbrella of your parents because they,
(04:07):
because of those sort of relations or?
No?
I think I felt like I,
I felt very independent in those other jobs because,
although I got the job because of the connection,
I ultimately made my way on my own and had to figure it out,
you know,
each,
each different job and what was required.
(04:28):
I kind of had to just figure that out.
I think it's interesting to think you've got these three different environments as a young person,
right?
Because those first jobs,
we don't know what how do they need to compare things to?
So how different were they,
or they kind of flow together or that,
I mean,
the environment and the people that you worked for and with in those places,
(04:49):
because there were three sort of retail establishments.
There was some similarity in terms of,
you know,
people coming in off of the street and dealing with different kinds of people,
you know,
it was the Haight Ashbury.
So it was very colorful in each job.
It was really different in the,
in the hair salon.
Um It was owned by a couple.
It's a very family environment and all of the stylists had been there for a while.
(05:14):
And so it was a small kind of space and there wasn't,
you know,
too many people to navigate in terms of the workplace and the other job across the street at the retail store was a little more complicated to me.
I've always kind of felt confused about like who would,
who was on,
who was the boss that day,
you know,
like who was in charge?
(05:35):
What were the different things expected of me?
I felt a little less coordinate there because there were just more of us in terms of sales people and more people coming and going.
And so I didn't love that space because it,
it felt more stressful and I never felt like I knew what I was doing and didn't get a lot of feedback to kind of help and,
like,
set me on the right path.
(05:56):
Like,
oh,
I'm doing good.
I know what to do.
Right.
So,
you go on to college and what did you major in?
I majored in sociology and women's studies started out as a psych major and then took a social psychology class and realized,
oh,
I think I'm much more interested in the systems that people operate within as opposed to sort of the internal systems.
(06:19):
And that kind of stayed with me.
I think I'm like it throughout my career,
you know,
from college onward,
I think that's a,
a common interest that I brought to like,
probably every workplace,
the systems behind whatever is going on or the systems within which people work.
I'm very interested in that organization.
When I got into this work in conflict resolution.
(06:42):
I was originally thinking I'm gonna do workplace mediation.
So dealing with these individuals and right away,
I saw well,
while I am interested in that,
I'm much more interested in the system in which they found.
Why,
why is this going on?
What has been happening so that this was allowed,
encouraged,
a blind eye was turned or whatnot.
Right.
(07:02):
Yeah,
exactly.
Because I think what happens is we think well,
systems I think can be invisible to us.
Uh,
and I think that's on purpose.
And so a lot of times we will take personal responsibility for things when really the,
the system in which we're operating created the environment and in some ways,
(07:30):
we are just operating within that environment and doing our best and,
and it's so important,
I think for people to understand how the systems that they operate in work.
Yeah,
that's such an excellent point of the invisibility of systems because you,
so when something feels natural,
we don't think so much about it.
And when we find ourselves,
uh what I'm most familiar with is work systems.
(07:52):
It feels like,
well,
this is the way that it is.
And so when I'm having a conflict or a problem or there's a mistake,
it's my mistake or your mistake,
it's,
you're the v or you're the villain,
you're causing this problem instead of,
well,
why is it that this has been allowed to happen or this person thinks this is acceptable?
Why is it somebody else hasn't stepped up?
(08:14):
And we very,
very often we scapegoat the person instead of really thinking about how we understand a person's behavior and culpability who is responsible for the good and the bad.
Right?
And so we just,
we just,
if something is invisible,
it's hard to say that's the problem because we don't see it.
And so we say it's a holy,
(08:35):
that person's responsibility,
the negative and the positive.
Yeah,
that's so true.
It's so true.
And it's something that I don't think I knew early in my career.
Um I think it's a lot easier when you're sort of entry level to not get a full picture of the workplace,
you know,
sort of get,
I think the,
(08:56):
the younger the employee,
the newer to the workplace,
the least amount of information they get contextually to sort of place themselves within the environment of work.
That's,
that's very true because the more experiences we have,
even if you've just been at the same place for a long time that you encounter different people in different parts of the organization and you see different people's experiences and maybe clients or whoever consumers experiences and you're able to see,
(09:26):
right?
So the young employee has something so valuable to offer.
She,
she sees in this way she has this experience but but only sees in this particular way which is very appropriate for,
you know,
age appropriate.
But as you get older,
sometimes you don't see other things because you're far removed from.
Uh but you,
you have this broader vision.
(09:47):
That's right.
That's right.
And I think that that implicates the way as we think about workplaces and what they should start to look like and feel like as we move forward.
And certainly post COVID,
I think that thinking about how to integrate all levels of employees into a sort of system in which there's full transparency for everyone.
(10:11):
I I think that's so important um and having layers of people at the table when coming up with solutions and policy solutions and things like that.
So that the ones who are most directly affected are actually able to say,
you know,
actually,
uh,
we're all talking about this in this way,
but it really doesn't work like that.
(10:35):
In,
in reality,
I've been learning that lesson the hard way or I'm not quite so sure.
So I've always been a fixer.
I want to fix things and I've come to realize later in life that fixing things for others doesn't work for them because it's how I would want it.
And so that's fine for me.
But when I do workplace mediation,
(10:57):
any kind of mediation or going into,
you know,
you know,
trans transformational culture work,
well,
what is it for them?
What do they want,
what do they see?
And that might not be satisfy me.
But in a mediation,
I'm gone the next day they're living with it.
So,
what is their solution for their desires and their needs and their vision,
not mine and it has nothing to do with me.
(11:18):
Right.
Right.
You're sort of the facilitator.
Right.
Right.
And to be able to see that and senior leaders ought to see themselves as facilitators of who am I bringing to the table?
And we really want everyone because there are very few systems in which or businesses in which their constituents isn't the full human experience that's in one way or another,
(11:43):
either directly or indirectly.
Right.
Right.
Yeah,
I always say that a lot of us are operating in organizations that were developed at a prior time for different people,
you know.
Yeah.
And usually white men.
Yeah.
I think that is so interesting and I also see this idea of when somebody is on boarded so when somebody gets on boarded,
(12:07):
so if I got on boarded five years ago,
then I learned the systems and the values and the interest at that time and,
and it's different than someone who was there 15 years ago and somebody who was hired two years ago and a,
and a week ago.
And so in a way,
we've got like different operating systems.
This one is 5.0 this one is 1.7.
And we all think that we are speaking to speak and,
(12:29):
and,
and talking the talk of the organization and we probably were at that time.
And if we don't understand the dynamics and change management and,
and con these continual conversations about company culture and,
you know,
whatever it might be,
people are going to be stuck in the past or just very um unnecessary conflict with one another because we're talking past each other.
(12:56):
Right.
Right.
And I think that brings me back to the,
the point around systems being visible to people.
Um because if you're talking different operating systems,
you,
you necessarily can't be talking about the same thing,
(13:17):
right?
We all have a knowledge,
right,
that we all bring our institutional knowledge up to the point at which it's,
you know,
limited to the table Yeah.
And it's a different way of thinking about human.
I hate to use this word human capital,
(13:37):
but it's different because if you think about people less by the roles they hold and what their titles are,
then you see that people are often much more than what they've been hired to do.
And that means,
you know,
if you look at them that way,
you see,
oh,
they may bring to the table even though they've only been here for a month,
some observations that none of us have thought about because we've been here for so much longer that we forgot about that stuff.
(14:03):
Yeah,
we can see it,
you know.
Yeah.
In fact,
we should really,
you know,
really be interested in the person after the first month after the first year because so many times we do work around,
we say,
oh this,
we read the writing on the wall,
we say,
ok,
this doesn't really work,
but this is what it's going on here.
So you just learn these workarounds instead of somebody saying,
(14:24):
why are we doing this before they learn their work around before they,
they say,
well,
this is this other way that we could do it that is appealing,
you know,
maybe we think about universal design or whatever it might be that actually it is going to be more efficient and help a bunch of people.
But instead of bending this way,
we just go straight.
But if we don't ask those kinds of questions to get that right answers.
(14:47):
Yes.
Yes.
And it's,
it's a very interesting moment for this because there's so many different generations at play in the workplace with so many different ways of working.
Yeah.
I,
I,
yeah,
I know that we're sort of staying on this for a moment.
But I just,
I just,
I like it so much thinking about it,
like an operating system,
(15:08):
even though I love,
I am absolutely love to talk about persons as computers.
But it is the case that we're human beings,
right?
And we have basic needs and wants and desires as part of the human condition.
And yet we're all individuals,
right?
So we have the sameness and we have this difference and if we focus on too much of one or the other,
we're going to miss out.
(15:29):
All right.
And so if we say we're all radically different,
there are these different ages and these different,
all these different ways in which we're different.
We how can we communicate?
How can we work together?
Well,
that's,
that's a losing proposition because it's thoughts,
we can work together and there's all these ways we can,
we can sync up.
But if we be,
if we're blind,
we say we're just human workers.
(15:49):
That's a catastrophe because we're more than that,
so much more.
We bring all,
I mean,
this is something I think about a lot when I coach my clients a lot of times they're coming to me in the context of work,
they've been,
you know,
they're,
they're getting coaching through their workplace.
And I often say right on the first day,
like I cannot only coach you as you the worker because you're a whole human that happens to work and you may come to our sessions and bring,
(16:19):
you know,
something that's on your mind that you deem to be personal but it's affecting you in the workplace anyway.
Yeah,
because I think we're still fighting this really weird idea of leave your emotions at the door,
right?
You what does it mean to be professional?
It's buttoned up.
(16:40):
It's this detached rational which we,
first of all,
we don't want,
we want human workers and therefore we need to have human work spaces and we can ask at,
we want the whole person to show up,
but show up in a particular way,
the whole person shows up when they are doing community engagement,
when they're at home and when they're at work.
(17:01):
So for the whole person to show up in a professional setting is still all of you.
It just looks a certain way given the environment that you happen to be,
be in,
right?
You're not sitting on the couch watching TV,
when you're at home,
something else is a little bit appropriate and it's still all you instead of thinking,
I take a certain part of myself in these different places.
(17:23):
Uh I was talking about that with a,
a friend of mine because I,
I asked her,
do you think that that is a generational thing?
The notion of like we,
you know,
kind of have a separate persona outside of work.
And I don't know if that's true or not because I,
you know,
I'm not Gen Z,
but I do have a Gen Z year old child.
(17:45):
Um And I do think they think about this very differently because just their notion of privacy is really different.
And so like the expectation around privacy is gonna be completely different for,
I think a Gen Z than a Gen X or you know,
which is what I am.
Yeah,
that's interesting.
I haven't thought about that.
Privacy is so interesting.
(18:07):
Yeah.
Let me think.
I was a little bit more about that.
Yeah,
that's a whole other tangent.
I love it.
So let's get back a little bit to you and,
and your history.
So you go to law school.
Why did you choose law school?
And what did you want to do with it?
Well,
so first I will say that I didn't go straight to law school.
I went straight to journalism school.
Oh,
that's right.
(18:27):
Yes.
And thought that I was going to be a writer.
I am a writer,
but I thought I was going to do that for work and that I was going to bring this interest I have and systems and justice in through reporting.
And I tried,
and I actually ended up moving to New York and ending up in publishing and,
(18:49):
and I worked for a weekly national magazine,
my first job and then uh moved on to publishing books.
And then from there,
I had another stint in uh what was the early kind of internet,
basically creating content.
And that was my last job before law school.
(19:10):
And that um kind of led me there because I was really interested in the rights of artists.
And you know,
the people I was kind of engaging with all these creative people who were engaging in the marketplace but not feeling protected in their rights.
So I thought,
OK,
I'm gonna go to law school and I'm gonna figure out how to do that.
(19:31):
But once I got there,
I got distracted and I ended up working in civil legal services when I left.
And so I had a career entirely focused in what you call public interest,
social justice,
racial justice,
economic justice work.
How did you get diverted?
But it seems like you're,
(19:52):
you're interested from the get go in protecting individuals,
protecting the voice of somebody,
whether it's an artist or constituent in,
in the community.
Has that always sort of been a part of who you are or?
Yeah,
I think so.
My mom is Jewish and I was raised in the faith and in a reform community that was very social justice oriented.
(20:16):
Um So from very young I would be going with my mom to the nursing homes on a monthly basis to visit the Jewish folks who are in the nursing homes.
And that was really a large part of my childhood.
And so I think it did create in myself,
my brother,
my mom,
this sort of identity around good work,
(20:37):
making sure that we were taking our privileges and using them to benefit others who still didn't have that.
I mean,
that,
that definitely drives me.
It's,
it,
it drove me for like 1516 years doing really hard work,
you know,
in New York City and,
and kind of burning out multiple times in that process.
(20:57):
And I still feel driven by that.
I do,
but I don't want to practice law.
So what led to the work you're doing now?
I think I've always been a student of human behavior and,
you know,
like a mini sociologist starting from birth.
And I say that because I,
you know,
came into a very multicultural family and my father is African American.
(21:21):
My mom is a Jewish American.
Her parents were like first generation immigrants and my father's father was also an immigrant,
his mother moved up from South Carolina.
And I just always had such a curiosity about the sort of story and history of our family,
(21:42):
but also how distinctly different each side was.
And as I got older and learned more obviously about the history,
you know,
of our country,
I sort of just had my own,
you know,
study session right there in my own family.
And then as I think,
as I started to get to school and learn more and have my own experiences in the world,
(22:03):
my curiosity never went away.
And I really believe that's what led me initially to sociology and then ultimately to practicing law uh law for me has always been about serving the communities of color that I perceive as being like the ones that I grew up in.
I'm wanting to just also make sure that the,
(22:24):
the knowledge and information that I had access to.
I,
I wanted everyone to have access to that.
And so some of my favorite parts of my law career involved,
you know,
community education and,
and like turning this stuff into something you could actually use,
you know,
taking legalese and making it make sense,
you know,
and then also my own personal experiences of being,
(22:48):
you know,
an office worker and,
you know,
sort of working with a very diverse team.
I just came to understand that the experience of working in the office was also a very interesting sociological kind of inquiry for me.
And that's kind of where I ended up in coaching,
(23:11):
I believe because coaching allows me even now to sort of deal with some of the trends and issues that people are experiencing.
Um And I think some of what people experiencing right now,
especially around burnout and the um notion of like just the workplace changing and having all these different expectations and kind of having to roll with it while also being in the midst of the change.
(23:40):
And so I love the notion of being able to support that work,
especially for leaders who are of color and who bring their own stories.
You know,
like the one that I bring,
they're just as complex and interesting and everybody's identity is sort of like unique.
And I think we,
if we address people in the workplace in that way,
it offers up some opportunity points for sort of just creating better systems and better workplaces.
(24:09):
Let's talk a little bit about that burn out.
You know,
I'm sure as a coach and the kind of work that you do now is real,
it's much easier to re evaluate your work before you get burned out because once you get burned out,
it is,
the recovery time is greater.
Um,
of course,
depends on what kind of burnout,
what you've been doing.
So,
(24:29):
can you tell us a little bit about how you got burned out and what you would do differently now or what you would tell your kids about?
Not,
you know,
we're doing the work but not getting burned out.
It's a good question and it's a question that I even had for myself at the outset of my career because a lot of our professors had been practicing attorneys and had that life.
(24:55):
So they often would talk about it.
And so I thought I had a good head on my shoulders that,
you know,
I had boundaries and that I um being a mom,
I was a single mom.
When I started practicing,
I felt I had like built in boundaries in place.
But what I found is that the,
the more I was practicing,
(25:16):
the more responsibility I got as I moved up and became like a senior staff attorney and supervising attorney.
All these things,
I started to have a harder time maintaining boundaries.
I literally went from someone who didn't check my work email after I got home to being someone who consistently checked it all the time,
like all day,
(25:36):
all night because it was in my hand in my phone.
And also as a mom,
always on the go,
always worried about missing something.
I just became very hyper vigilant.
And so some of the burnout I think came from that need to be hyper vigilant.
And some of it was the work itself as a mom,
(25:57):
a single mom and uh someone who came to the field of law without any experience of having lawyers in the family or anything like that.
So I already came with a sense of not necessarily knowing if I knew everything I needed to know.
So that really created a lot of hypervigilance in that I was always trying to make sure I wasn't missing anything,
(26:20):
making sure I was catching all the things that I might not know that other people might know.
Um And that is exhausting and you don't always know you're doing it.
Um And I think it also contributed,
I,
I struggled with depression and anxiety and I think it really raised the anxiety for me.
I didn't even realize how often I was having panic attacks until the pandemic.
(26:44):
So,
was it around the pandemic that you made a,
a career shift away from practicing law?
Um,
that I would say started in about 2017.
Well,
let me just say that I am someone who typically when I'm gonna make a change,
I have a really clear view so I can just go when it came time when I started to feel burnt out on the law and sort of thinking about what kind of lifestyle changes I needed to make.
(27:10):
I really had a hard time envisioning it.
It was just very blank for me and that was not helpful for anxiety.
Um,
but ultimately,
what happened was that I participated in management training and as part of that,
we got coaches and I got a coach who said to me,
I'm gonna coach you on whatever comes up for you.
(27:33):
You know,
if we don't talk about work at all,
if you want to talk about that divorce,
you're dealing with,
we can do that.
And that experience was really life altering for me.
And it led me to pursue coaching and I did a year long training in LA.
I just was basically going back and forth over the course of that between,
(27:56):
I'd be working full time in the law and doing this training and then kind of bringing that back to my legal work as a supervisor trying to coach my team.
And I loved it.
I loved what it did for our relationships.
I loved what it did for the team's cohesion and productivity.
(28:18):
We had a really interesting year where we pursued new work and got some new grants and it was one of my favorite times uh working there,
even though it was a really kind of personally challenging moment because I was going through a divorce.
But it helped me to be able to show up,
still supervising this team,
(28:40):
still experiencing life and to be vulnerable and real with the team was,
it was a gift for me because otherwise I would have held all of that in and felt really ashamed um and tried to come and be like this leader that had all the answers,
which is not sustainable.
(29:02):
It's what I my clients all the time.
You don't have answers.
It's impossible.
And if you try to,
you will become hyper vigilant and burn out just one of the ways you'll burn out.
You know,
it's such that catch 22 of leadership,
you know,
people get these roles.
And I think,
OK,
I've,
I'm here because I know these things and I'm the leader and I need to have all the answers.
(29:23):
And yet the the paradox is that no,
a part of being a good leader is recognizing these other people.
I should,
these other people should be the smartest people in the room.
They should be shining.
I need to get what they've got.
Instead of me as the all powerful leader who is,
I'm,
you know,
I'm telling everybody what to do and they're just the minions that is such an old school way of thinking.
(29:49):
Um And yeah,
it doesn't appeal to me like I couldn't even envision that kind of leadership.
And that was my model from the bosses I had had.
And,
and so learning to coach really helped me formulate my own style of leadership and it really did kind of open up my mind too to how to make a shift.
(30:15):
And that's when I started thinking about becoming an entrepreneur and going into business for myself.
And,
and I'll tell you that took a good five years of self work to feel confident enough to do something like that.
You know,
I'm the sole supporter of my Children.
So it was a big leap.
(30:36):
But it,
it's something that I'm very grateful that I've given myself the chance to experience.
And I love the name of your company,
Transformative Leadership collective.
It's so evocative of,
of what you want in,
in a coach in leadership and management training.
I mean every part of this,
(30:57):
right?
And I love that it's collective because,
well,
tell us about,
tell us about the name and what it means to you,
the name,
it's,
it took me a minute to come up with this name.
It,
you know,
I knew I wanted to have a business,
but I just was struggling with that and the moment that it came to me was the month before the pandemic.
(31:18):
I was having maybe the worst month supervisor wise of my career experiencing a really challenging situation,
unlike anything I had ever experienced.
So in that moment,
what I was thinking about was,
first of all,
transformation has always been at the core of coaching for me,
(31:39):
it's kind of how I learned to coach in the style of transformative coaching.
And I also experienced it myself.
So I know that it works and I've also now kind of added to the the the teachings that I had um with some of the things I've just learned in practice.
(32:00):
And so I wanted that piece around transformation because I think so much of,
of people making changes really is like a shift of your sense of who you are and your sense of identity.
So I wanted that to be very present leadership to me,
I love the word leadership.
I've encountered a lot of people who have a lot of strong feelings about that word,
(32:22):
but I think of it as being something that is present throughout your life.
It's not just something that you do in the workplace,
you might be leading a family.
You are certainly leading your own life.
We don't always think about that.
And then collective for me is just a,
it's a real value of mine,
the collective in the communal.
(32:44):
Even in my legal career,
I never saw myself as the legal expert for my clients.
I was there to provide them with information to support their expert information about their lives.
And so collective liberation is very important to me at all levels.
And so I wanted that to be just part of the name.
(33:08):
I love all parts of that because I agree with everything that you've said there.
And when I,
I was just talking,
I was on a zoom call earlier today with uh with some clients and going through some of the issues that they're facing and their particular people that they are sort of this organization,
a lot of people who are management got there because they were good at something else they were doing,
(33:30):
right?
And they're promoted and this person was talking about department after department that's having these real problems because they know the nuts and bolts of the job.
But it's those people skills.
It's the so called soft skills of we were friends when we were on the line together.
And now that I'm here,
this person is saying they don't like this but in a disrespectful way I disagree with what you're doing or on and on and on and,
(33:56):
and I was,
I'm gonna come and do some training,
but it's a one off,
it's a day and I,
I see the writing on the wall,
what they need is management training,
they need leadership training,
they need coaching so that they will be empowered so that they can see so that somebody can,
can give them another view of,
you know,
(34:17):
possibilities.
Why would people know how to manage,
which is different than leading,
but manage and,
and lead in this really efficacious,
fruitful,
empowering,
engaging way if they're not trained and not one off training,
continual,
sustained leadership opportunities and engagement.
(34:38):
So why do you think there's such a a hole in the vision from the leaders of offering these or even requiring these for their,
their managers and their leaders?
I mean,
what I hear often is that it's the sense of there just not being enough resources,
(34:58):
that's always at least in the nonprofit sector.
The first thing that is said for any kind of new initiative,
I think what it is is just not valuing the relational skills that are required to lead people and manage people.
Um And,
and part of that is maybe just societally,
(35:20):
we don't typically just the fact that we call them soft skills.
Um and we tend to maybe think of them also in a gendered way.
And so I think what I,
what I see as being the most important thing that you need to teach new managers is how to manage people,
(35:41):
right?
Like you have to know that it's not about how much,
you know,
at that point,
like you got here because of how much,
you know,
and that's certainly important to leading people when you have to give them substantive,
you know,
support.
But really what you have to do and is,
is figure out what makes people motivate,
(36:02):
what do,
what do you need to motivate your team?
What do you need to,
you know,
find out?
Well,
so and so is having a hard time over there,
I don't really know what I'm seeing,
but I'm,
I'm seeing it impact on our team.
You can't avoid that.
A lot of times people don't know what to do.
So they just do nothing.
(36:22):
And I think that comes from not having been given the skill set because there are some skill sets required.
I had to learn some of them.
And a lot of it too is also doing self reflection about what we bring to the workplace that might not be about the workplace,
you know?
Absolutely.
(36:44):
It's so interesting to me that when we think somebody comes to work and it as if they just came out of the womb,
you know,
they're just fresh,
they're not coming with experiences in other places,
their own,
growing up their own current home life,
social situation.
That's every single person in the workplace.
Right.
And I absolutely agree that we don't value care very well.
(37:08):
I've been t so I got out of teaching,
but I'm teaching this semester for a professor who is on leave and I was just recently doing ethics of care.
And,
you know,
Carol Gilligan talks a lot about how,
what we value and what we don't value and we don't value quote unquote what we call domestic work.
And we see that right?
It's not paid,
it's supposed to be free labor,
(37:29):
right?
This free emotional labor and that gets offloaded and we see it as just,
yeah,
obviously not valuable.
And yet I,
I absolutely believe the quality of our life has to do with the quality of our relationships.
That means how we care and how we are cared for.
And these are all reciprocal relationships.
(37:50):
And that's why I really like this idea of the collective,
which is not just me coming in,
in my individual bubble,
but it's this robust,
you know,
I am this,
I am this individual and I am enmeshed in these networks and how I manage those networks,
has everything to do with what I'm going to be able to do what other people are going to be able to do.
(38:12):
And if we want to be excellent and we want to be,
you know,
have the,
if we want to move forward in society,
we need to figure out how to,
how to be human at work and other places as well.
But Right.
Absolutely.
And II I think the benefit if there,
(38:33):
if we can say that of having experienced the global pandemic is that people being at home made it very clear that we're all human beings,
right?
Like you're in your living room,
on your couch,
you have a cat.
Oh,
you have a cat.
Look at the tail,
you know what I'm saying?
(38:56):
Just stripped away any facade that people tend to bring with them into the workplace.
And I think it also forced employers to have to think about people's feelings and their mental health and,
and have to really consider how the policies they were creating in those moments would impact those things.
(39:20):
And no,
that's not really how any policies have ever been created in the workplace,
I don't think.
No.
Yeah,
absolutely.
It is an opportunity.
Who wants to look at the,
what we've been going through?
Gosh,
there are always hard times.
I think sometimes the history are a little bit harder than others,
but they really are opportunities to rewrite policy,
(39:43):
rewrite.
So not only am I interested in policies and those sorts of organizations,
am I interested in space because we are embodied creatures and how those spaces,
you know,
and I,
I,
you know,
write absolutely the tail going by the person walking by,
you know,
ducking down,
you know,
seeing people in,
in their homes.
The last part of my teaching was online and people are in their,
(40:05):
you know,
these kids are,
students are in their bedrooms and,
you know,
blanket around their head as,
as,
you know,
we talk about something philosophical but the physical environment.
And when I,
when I look at these open open plan environments or these cubicles,
I think this was some sort of science fiction dream written by robots for robots certainly.
(40:26):
Or people in the c suite who were behind closed doors,
um Not even imagining or this fantasy of,
oh,
they're gonna be around so they can communicate with one another.
Not thinking the person next to them is gonna be eating a tuna fish sandwich and,
you know,
whatever it might be of just what it means to be a physical person in a physical space,
(40:48):
in a work environment and how these different environments,
physically and psychologically bring the best out of us,
make us so that we're just operating minimally or demoralizing.
Absolutely.
Can you tell us about a difficult situation?
You faced a conflict with somebody and,
and how you dealt with it?
(41:09):
Yes.
And I thought I was trying to figure out which one do I wanna,
I wanna choose and I think I'll choose.
So I,
I will say I'm one of those people who probably never had conflict in the workplace before,
let's say 2015,
I just avoided it at all costs and didn't need to have really,
didn't,
(41:29):
didn't encounter too many opportunities for conflict to arise because I think that comes back to my valuing of relationships and conflict started to arise more so around me,
not so much involving me.
And as a result of that,
our whole management team received some training on how to have courageous conversations is what they were calling it.
(41:55):
I've also heard this like fierce conversations,
difficult conversations,
right?
And that was an opportunity that really helped me.
Kind of,
first of all,
think about like conflict is not inherently bad.
And if it's not inherently bad,
that means that there are ways to have it that actually are beneficial and create movement,
(42:16):
which is kind of the idea.
And so that was the first thing and then it was OK.
Well,
what is so triggering for me because it was very,
very triggering and I never wanted to feel that in the workplace,
which is why I avoided at all costs.
And so then I had to do some thinking and some self-awareness work and some work with my therapist on early childhood trauma stuff,
(42:40):
right?
Like the things that we carry with us and we don't always know is there until it comes up because of something,
someone said the way they said it.
So I got to do that and then I got to learn,
not every conflict needs to be confronted.
Maybe so there's a way to assess like,
is this the right moment?
Is this the right time to say this is this gonna make an impact that's positive.
(43:04):
Like,
OK,
how do you do that?
And then it was like,
OK,
now here's how you do the conversation.
You gotta actually sit down across from someone,
you gotta ask them to come to the table and,
and then you have to prepare yourself so that you can listen and actually be open to what they're saying.
(43:25):
And I think the biggest thing that I learned was curiosity too.
It's like,
and,
and,
and assuming that people have good intentions that they really don't know all the time that they've stepped on your toes.
So if you can at least assume they didn't know,
then it's easier to be curious about why that happened.
(43:46):
And to take that curiosity to a point of like,
OK,
well,
help me understand.
I would like to understand and I would like you to understand.
I think that quells the anxiety that is under the surface in any kind of conflict situation.
It,
I think it really helps and I think what I experienced in trying it in the workplace was that it was actually easier than I expected,
(44:12):
you know,
when I had steps to follow.
And I didn't have to like just operate in a moment of triggered anxiety.
I could,
I could do it.
And so I think that that is part of what people need is the opportunity to practice because we got to first practice with each other.
And then we had to like make a list of people we wanted to go and like practice with outside of our group.
(44:35):
Um And that was a little scarier,
but everyone had a good experience,
like nobody came back and was like,
they yelled at me and I feel terrible.
Now I love everything that you've said.
And I feel like you're giving the talk that I normally give to people and you know,
it start,
it started as you said,
with curiosity about yourself,
I'm having this experience instead of lashing out and saying,
(44:58):
and you're doing this to me to be able to take that step back and say,
why does this bother me?
Right.
What's going on with me?
And,
and then those and as you said,
not everything needs to be said,
right?
So some of those things are me problem and if,
if they are,
then that's the place I need to deal with them or sometimes I'm mad at you,
but it actually is an organizational issue,
(45:20):
right?
And so if we can take so that we can really see what's going on and what is it that I actually need?
And what is it that I want and then how to go about doing that?
And it starts with that conversation with ourselves because we've got to deescalated ourselves,
right?
If we think about having those,
I say difficult conversations and I know I know people don't like that.
(45:41):
Why are you calling it difficult.
Well,
if it's difficult for you,
it is,
let's not pretend it isn't if it's not fine,
you know,
but if it's difficult for you,
it is fine so we can do difficult things.
I don't,
I think we should encourage people to.
But as you said,
that step by step and every time you do it,
you get this,
you get confidence and that's how you build capacity by seeing the world didn't fall apart.
(46:06):
When I said this,
when I invited someone to the table and every time we get a win,
we're more likely to do it.
We're more likely to do it because we build confidence and conflict management.
I always say is about personal empowerment.
You're not,
you give your power away when you need the other person to move first,
you need them to apologize,
you need them to have a lobotomy or something that's just not going to help you get on with it and have the kind of life that you want.
(46:35):
And what is it that you want for yourself then you know,
moving through those steps and they are just skills to learn and develop.
And it feels scary because we always think about the end product,
right?
So like wanting to be an entrepreneur,
if you think,
well,
I want to have a successful business as,
as a boom,
(46:55):
I get it right away.
It,
it doesn't work that way.
You have to be to be ready for the journey.
Shoot the journey.
Yes,
I'm on that journey,
right?
As you look into the future of work and you think about your kids and others out into the workforce.
What is it that you think needs to happen?
(47:17):
So that not only is everyone from the part time seasonal worker to the c suite person so that everyone is treated with dignity and respect and encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Hm,
I have to say I,
I was lucky enough to have the experience of being in a unionized environment and a nonunionized environment.
(47:40):
And so I think what people who get that benefit of being in a unionized environment is they get to have some of the basics about the work experience kind of set out for them so that everyone kind of knows what to do.
And I think when you don't have that,
there's a lot of people just doing what they have to,
(48:04):
to,
you know,
get it,
get by and keep things moving.
I think I'd like to see us recognize that there is more time than we think that it's possible to do the work of now and the long term work at the same time.
And that,
that work is exciting and interesting and that we don't actually have a blueprint for what these future workplaces and organizations might look like,
(48:35):
but we know what isn't working.
And I think this younger generation has a very strong sense of justice.
Um And even what I've seen in the folks I've worked with so millennials and some Gen Z a lot of commitment to,
to work,
you know,
that I think there's,
they get a bad rap because they want good working conditions.
(49:00):
I think there's this idea that like,
they don't wanna work.
And uh frankly,
I,
I appreciated the energy that the younger generation brought to my workplace.
It helped move change so much more quickly than when a small group of Gen Zs were trying to do it up against the boomer generation.
(49:24):
Uh There just was no movement on the,
we couldn't get traction on the issues that bothered us issues around equity issues,
around policy,
like the things we've been talking about.
And so I really think it's gonna require some bravery,
some creativity and a willingness to just do things different and see what happens and kind of like workshop it as you go.
(49:51):
Yeah,
I love that while we don't know what's going to be,
you know,
what A I is going to be doing and just the technological revolution as it keeps on unraveling at this breakneck speed,
we do know the workplace is going to be populated with people.
We know that and we do know as you said,
what has not worked.
(50:11):
And I agree all the young people I've worked with want to work and they're creative,
but they are not going to accept or don't want to accept these dead end jobs where they're getting paid minimum wage where all of these things are out of reach and they are saying no,
no,
thank you as they ought to.
Right.
And learning from that.
(50:33):
So,
yes,
I love the way that you put that.
I think it's very,
very evocative of a,
a blueprint forward of when we don't know exactly what it is,
but we know that's where we wanna go.
Mhm.
And I think the other part of that is a lot of the sort of leader level,
the senior leadership level has to actively make space for the new generation of leaders.
(51:00):
And I've seen a lot of organizations where le senior leaders are retiring,
but they did nothing to support that next level of leadership so that they have the benefit of their leadership to bring forward.
And I think that's a loss and a shame.
Um and a and a potential,
(51:23):
you know,
lost opportunity for just developing the next generation of leaders,
which is just,
that's,
that's my thing.
Yeah,
you're so right.
And I,
I know uh listeners,
you can't see this,
but as your arms are going up,
I think,
you know,
this traditional sort of structure of leadership where if we flatten things out and we think more about layering and peppering the c sweet person is going to be able to see,
(51:48):
oh what actually works,
what doesn't work and we're going to be able to hear these different voices and train in this kind of way.
So that I've been in universities most of my life,
it's a very hierarchical and it shows and,
and there are these supers structural issues about when it comes to how humans are treated,
(52:09):
um whether they're faculty,
staff or students.
And it's,
it's very tough when these systems are so rigid and they just get passed down.
And instead of being shown as you said,
this new way and continual training so that we turn things for the human community and break down the these false false status barriers,
(52:30):
which are barriers.
Absolutely.
We didn't get to talk about some of my best and worst experiences.
But one of the key indicators for me was how much of a gatekeeper was my boss.
That's how I could tell.
Like,
were they supportive or were they gatekeeping?
And unfortunately,
(52:51):
there's a lot of gatekeeping.
Yeah,
you're right.
We've,
we've almost at an hour and we've just been,
we've been chatting and I appreciate it so much.
Thank you for being on conflict managed.
I just really enjoyed our conversation and getting to know you.
I did as well and I look forward to continuing the conversation.
Absolutely.
Take care.
Thank you Nasoan
(53:12):
thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed.
I could have just talked to you all day long and,
and you are right.
There are some things I didn't get to that.
I usually like to ask guests.
Thank you for your time.
And sharing your experiences with us.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(53:33):
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (53:40):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's a tips of what not to do and start a conversation about what do we want at work?
What does it really mean to be professional,
which is specific to who you are and where you work.
So,
starting those conversations,
our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
And remember,
(54:00):
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
Take care.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.
(00:25):
So,
welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Nasoan Sheftel Gomes,
an attorney,
leadership coach,
diversity,
equity inclusion and belonging strategist.
Her expertise is in organizational development,
program development,
operations,
human resources,
(00:45):
labor management,
strategic planning and compliance.
She has led organizational transformation,
diversity and anti bias initiatives and supported leadership development within unionized and non unionized workforces.
Nasoan's passion lies in supporting the development of tomorrow's leaders to shape and grow organizations that center equity uphold anti-racism value diversity and support leadership at all levels.
(01:10):
Nasoan's consulting and coach,
business,
transformative leadership collective coaches,
leaders to examine their role in creating organizational culture and connects them within their core leadership values,
self-awareness,
resilience,
strengthens relationship building skills,
improves decision making skills and supports an equity driven organizational culture that inspires a sense of worker cohesion and collective purpose.
(01:35):
Nasoan believes good leadership requires the skills to engage in difficult conversations that further connection and understanding.
Nasoan practiced law in the nonprofit legal services sector in new York City for over 16 years as a social justice attorney at the Urban Justice Center and take root justice where she most recently interned as general counsel.
(01:55):
Nasoan has led teams of lawyers,
non lawyers and students.
She taught clinical law at NYU Law School and mentored countless student lawyers.
During her career,
Nasoan received her JD from the City University of New York School of Law,
her master's in journalism from the University of California Berkeley and her bachelor's in Sociology from Clark University.
(02:17):
She is a certified professional leadership coach and received her certification in diversity equity and inclusion through Cornell University.
She is licensed to practice law in the state of New York and lives in Los Angeles,
California.
Good morning Nasoan and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Thank you for having me and good morning.
I'm delighted to be talking with you today and to get to know you and hear all about the work that you're up to.
(02:42):
Great.
I'm really excited to talk to you.
Excellent.
So let's just begin.
And will you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
So my parents owned a store in San Francisco in the Haight,
Ashbury.
And my brother and I as kids under 13,
helped around the store.
So that was really my first job.
(03:03):
And then because I was working in the neighborhood,
other um merchants on the street became friendly with my parents.
And so I got other jobs.
So,
in,
like,
one year I had three jobs all on the same block.
Yeah,
one was at a hair salon,
one was at a retail store and the other was my parents store.
How long did you,
(03:24):
do you do those,
those sorts of jobs?
Did you do it all through high school,
or?
Yeah,
that,
that was my high school,
um,
work experience.
And,
uh,
and then in high,
in college I basically did a combination of work study,
uh food service.
Uh Really anything that I could,
(03:44):
you know,
get paid for?
I always think it's interesting when people work for their family because there's always family dynamics but then to be working for not only your family but friends of your family.
Right.
And so what did that feel like?
Did,
did you see the different dynamics or did you sort of feel like you were under the umbrella of your parents because they,
(04:07):
because of those sort of relations or?
No?
I think I felt like I,
I felt very independent in those other jobs because,
although I got the job because of the connection,
I ultimately made my way on my own and had to figure it out,
you know,
each,
each different job and what was required.
(04:28):
I kind of had to just figure that out.
I think it's interesting to think you've got these three different environments as a young person,
right?
Because those first jobs,
we don't know what how do they need to compare things to?
So how different were they,
or they kind of flow together or that,
I mean,
the environment and the people that you worked for and with in those places,
(04:49):
because there were three sort of retail establishments.
There was some similarity in terms of,
you know,
people coming in off of the street and dealing with different kinds of people,
you know,
it was the Haight Ashbury.
So it was very colorful in each job.
It was really different in the,
in the hair salon.
Um It was owned by a couple.
It's a very family environment and all of the stylists had been there for a while.
(05:14):
And so it was a small kind of space and there wasn't,
you know,
too many people to navigate in terms of the workplace and the other job across the street at the retail store was a little more complicated to me.
I've always kind of felt confused about like who would,
who was on,
who was the boss that day,
you know,
like who was in charge?
(05:35):
What were the different things expected of me?
I felt a little less coordinate there because there were just more of us in terms of sales people and more people coming and going.
And so I didn't love that space because it,
it felt more stressful and I never felt like I knew what I was doing and didn't get a lot of feedback to kind of help and,
like,
set me on the right path.
(05:56):
Like,
oh,
I'm doing good.
I know what to do.
Right.
So,
you go on to college and what did you major in?
I majored in sociology and women's studies started out as a psych major and then took a social psychology class and realized,
oh,
I think I'm much more interested in the systems that people operate within as opposed to sort of the internal systems.
(06:19):
And that kind of stayed with me.
I think I'm like it throughout my career,
you know,
from college onward,
I think that's a,
a common interest that I brought to like,
probably every workplace,
the systems behind whatever is going on or the systems within which people work.
I'm very interested in that organization.
When I got into this work in conflict resolution.
(06:42):
I was originally thinking I'm gonna do workplace mediation.
So dealing with these individuals and right away,
I saw well,
while I am interested in that,
I'm much more interested in the system in which they found.
Why,
why is this going on?
What has been happening so that this was allowed,
encouraged,
a blind eye was turned or whatnot.
Right.
(07:02):
Yeah,
exactly.
Because I think what happens is we think well,
systems I think can be invisible to us.
Uh,
and I think that's on purpose.
And so a lot of times we will take personal responsibility for things when really the,
the system in which we're operating created the environment and in some ways,
(07:30):
we are just operating within that environment and doing our best and,
and it's so important,
I think for people to understand how the systems that they operate in work.
Yeah,
that's such an excellent point of the invisibility of systems because you,
so when something feels natural,
we don't think so much about it.
And when we find ourselves,
uh what I'm most familiar with is work systems.
(07:52):
It feels like,
well,
this is the way that it is.
And so when I'm having a conflict or a problem or there's a mistake,
it's my mistake or your mistake,
it's,
you're the v or you're the villain,
you're causing this problem instead of,
well,
why is it that this has been allowed to happen or this person thinks this is acceptable?
Why is it somebody else hasn't stepped up?
(08:14):
And we very,
very often we scapegoat the person instead of really thinking about how we understand a person's behavior and culpability who is responsible for the good and the bad.
Right?
And so we just,
we just,
if something is invisible,
it's hard to say that's the problem because we don't see it.
And so we say it's a holy,
(08:35):
that person's responsibility,
the negative and the positive.
Yeah,
that's so true.
It's so true.
And it's something that I don't think I knew early in my career.
Um I think it's a lot easier when you're sort of entry level to not get a full picture of the workplace,
you know,
sort of get,
I think the,
(08:56):
the younger the employee,
the newer to the workplace,
the least amount of information they get contextually to sort of place themselves within the environment of work.
That's,
that's very true because the more experiences we have,
even if you've just been at the same place for a long time that you encounter different people in different parts of the organization and you see different people's experiences and maybe clients or whoever consumers experiences and you're able to see,
(09:26):
right?
So the young employee has something so valuable to offer.
She,
she sees in this way she has this experience but but only sees in this particular way which is very appropriate for,
you know,
age appropriate.
But as you get older,
sometimes you don't see other things because you're far removed from.
Uh but you,
you have this broader vision.
(09:47):
That's right.
That's right.
And I think that that implicates the way as we think about workplaces and what they should start to look like and feel like as we move forward.
And certainly post COVID,
I think that thinking about how to integrate all levels of employees into a sort of system in which there's full transparency for everyone.
(10:11):
I I think that's so important um and having layers of people at the table when coming up with solutions and policy solutions and things like that.
So that the ones who are most directly affected are actually able to say,
you know,
actually,
uh,
we're all talking about this in this way,
but it really doesn't work like that.
(10:35):
In,
in reality,
I've been learning that lesson the hard way or I'm not quite so sure.
So I've always been a fixer.
I want to fix things and I've come to realize later in life that fixing things for others doesn't work for them because it's how I would want it.
And so that's fine for me.
But when I do workplace mediation,
(10:57):
any kind of mediation or going into,
you know,
you know,
trans transformational culture work,
well,
what is it for them?
What do they want,
what do they see?
And that might not be satisfy me.
But in a mediation,
I'm gone the next day they're living with it.
So,
what is their solution for their desires and their needs and their vision,
not mine and it has nothing to do with me.
(11:18):
Right.
Right.
You're sort of the facilitator.
Right.
Right.
And to be able to see that and senior leaders ought to see themselves as facilitators of who am I bringing to the table?
And we really want everyone because there are very few systems in which or businesses in which their constituents isn't the full human experience that's in one way or another,
(11:43):
either directly or indirectly.
Right.
Right.
Yeah,
I always say that a lot of us are operating in organizations that were developed at a prior time for different people,
you know.
Yeah.
And usually white men.
Yeah.
I think that is so interesting and I also see this idea of when somebody is on boarded so when somebody gets on boarded,
(12:07):
so if I got on boarded five years ago,
then I learned the systems and the values and the interest at that time and,
and it's different than someone who was there 15 years ago and somebody who was hired two years ago and a,
and a week ago.
And so in a way,
we've got like different operating systems.
This one is 5.0 this one is 1.7.
And we all think that we are speaking to speak and,
(12:29):
and,
and talking the talk of the organization and we probably were at that time.
And if we don't understand the dynamics and change management and,
and con these continual conversations about company culture and,
you know,
whatever it might be,
people are going to be stuck in the past or just very um unnecessary conflict with one another because we're talking past each other.
(12:56):
Right.
Right.
And I think that brings me back to the,
the point around systems being visible to people.
Um because if you're talking different operating systems,
you,
you necessarily can't be talking about the same thing,
(13:17):
right?
We all have a knowledge,
right,
that we all bring our institutional knowledge up to the point at which it's,
you know,
limited to the table Yeah.
And it's a different way of thinking about human.
I hate to use this word human capital,
(13:37):
but it's different because if you think about people less by the roles they hold and what their titles are,
then you see that people are often much more than what they've been hired to do.
And that means,
you know,
if you look at them that way,
you see,
oh,
they may bring to the table even though they've only been here for a month,
some observations that none of us have thought about because we've been here for so much longer that we forgot about that stuff.
(14:03):
Yeah,
we can see it,
you know.
Yeah.
In fact,
we should really,
you know,
really be interested in the person after the first month after the first year because so many times we do work around,
we say,
oh this,
we read the writing on the wall,
we say,
ok,
this doesn't really work,
but this is what it's going on here.
So you just learn these workarounds instead of somebody saying,
(14:24):
why are we doing this before they learn their work around before they,
they say,
well,
this is this other way that we could do it that is appealing,
you know,
maybe we think about universal design or whatever it might be that actually it is going to be more efficient and help a bunch of people.
But instead of bending this way,
we just go straight.
But if we don't ask those kinds of questions to get that right answers.
(14:47):
Yes.
Yes.
And it's,
it's a very interesting moment for this because there's so many different generations at play in the workplace with so many different ways of working.
Yeah.
I,
I,
yeah,
I know that we're sort of staying on this for a moment.
But I just,
I just,
I like it so much thinking about it,
like an operating system,
(15:08):
even though I love,
I am absolutely love to talk about persons as computers.
But it is the case that we're human beings,
right?
And we have basic needs and wants and desires as part of the human condition.
And yet we're all individuals,
right?
So we have the sameness and we have this difference and if we focus on too much of one or the other,
we're going to miss out.
(15:29):
All right.
And so if we say we're all radically different,
there are these different ages and these different,
all these different ways in which we're different.
We how can we communicate?
How can we work together?
Well,
that's,
that's a losing proposition because it's thoughts,
we can work together and there's all these ways we can,
we can sync up.
But if we be,
if we're blind,
we say we're just human workers.
(15:49):
That's a catastrophe because we're more than that,
so much more.
We bring all,
I mean,
this is something I think about a lot when I coach my clients a lot of times they're coming to me in the context of work,
they've been,
you know,
they're,
they're getting coaching through their workplace.
And I often say right on the first day,
like I cannot only coach you as you the worker because you're a whole human that happens to work and you may come to our sessions and bring,
(16:19):
you know,
something that's on your mind that you deem to be personal but it's affecting you in the workplace anyway.
Yeah,
because I think we're still fighting this really weird idea of leave your emotions at the door,
right?
You what does it mean to be professional?
It's buttoned up.
(16:40):
It's this detached rational which we,
first of all,
we don't want,
we want human workers and therefore we need to have human work spaces and we can ask at,
we want the whole person to show up,
but show up in a particular way,
the whole person shows up when they are doing community engagement,
when they're at home and when they're at work.
(17:01):
So for the whole person to show up in a professional setting is still all of you.
It just looks a certain way given the environment that you happen to be,
be in,
right?
You're not sitting on the couch watching TV,
when you're at home,
something else is a little bit appropriate and it's still all you instead of thinking,
I take a certain part of myself in these different places.
(17:23):
Uh I was talking about that with a,
a friend of mine because I,
I asked her,
do you think that that is a generational thing?
The notion of like we,
you know,
kind of have a separate persona outside of work.
And I don't know if that's true or not because I,
you know,
I'm not Gen Z,
but I do have a Gen Z year old child.
(17:45):
Um And I do think they think about this very differently because just their notion of privacy is really different.
And so like the expectation around privacy is gonna be completely different for,
I think a Gen Z than a Gen X or you know,
which is what I am.
Yeah,
that's interesting.
I haven't thought about that.
Privacy is so interesting.
(18:07):
Yeah.
Let me think.
I was a little bit more about that.
Yeah,
that's a whole other tangent.
I love it.
So let's get back a little bit to you and,
and your history.
So you go to law school.
Why did you choose law school?
And what did you want to do with it?
Well,
so first I will say that I didn't go straight to law school.
I went straight to journalism school.
Oh,
that's right.
(18:27):
Yes.
And thought that I was going to be a writer.
I am a writer,
but I thought I was going to do that for work and that I was going to bring this interest I have and systems and justice in through reporting.
And I tried,
and I actually ended up moving to New York and ending up in publishing and,
(18:49):
and I worked for a weekly national magazine,
my first job and then uh moved on to publishing books.
And then from there,
I had another stint in uh what was the early kind of internet,
basically creating content.
And that was my last job before law school.
(19:10):
And that um kind of led me there because I was really interested in the rights of artists.
And you know,
the people I was kind of engaging with all these creative people who were engaging in the marketplace but not feeling protected in their rights.
So I thought,
OK,
I'm gonna go to law school and I'm gonna figure out how to do that.
(19:31):
But once I got there,
I got distracted and I ended up working in civil legal services when I left.
And so I had a career entirely focused in what you call public interest,
social justice,
racial justice,
economic justice work.
How did you get diverted?
But it seems like you're,
(19:52):
you're interested from the get go in protecting individuals,
protecting the voice of somebody,
whether it's an artist or constituent in,
in the community.
Has that always sort of been a part of who you are or?
Yeah,
I think so.
My mom is Jewish and I was raised in the faith and in a reform community that was very social justice oriented.
(20:16):
Um So from very young I would be going with my mom to the nursing homes on a monthly basis to visit the Jewish folks who are in the nursing homes.
And that was really a large part of my childhood.
And so I think it did create in myself,
my brother,
my mom,
this sort of identity around good work,
(20:37):
making sure that we were taking our privileges and using them to benefit others who still didn't have that.
I mean,
that,
that definitely drives me.
It's,
it,
it drove me for like 1516 years doing really hard work,
you know,
in New York City and,
and kind of burning out multiple times in that process.
(20:57):
And I still feel driven by that.
I do,
but I don't want to practice law.
So what led to the work you're doing now?
I think I've always been a student of human behavior and,
you know,
like a mini sociologist starting from birth.
And I say that because I,
you know,
came into a very multicultural family and my father is African American.
(21:21):
My mom is a Jewish American.
Her parents were like first generation immigrants and my father's father was also an immigrant,
his mother moved up from South Carolina.
And I just always had such a curiosity about the sort of story and history of our family,
(21:42):
but also how distinctly different each side was.
And as I got older and learned more obviously about the history,
you know,
of our country,
I sort of just had my own,
you know,
study session right there in my own family.
And then as I think,
as I started to get to school and learn more and have my own experiences in the world,
(22:03):
my curiosity never went away.
And I really believe that's what led me initially to sociology and then ultimately to practicing law uh law for me has always been about serving the communities of color that I perceive as being like the ones that I grew up in.
I'm wanting to just also make sure that the,
(22:24):
the knowledge and information that I had access to.
I,
I wanted everyone to have access to that.
And so some of my favorite parts of my law career involved,
you know,
community education and,
and like turning this stuff into something you could actually use,
you know,
taking legalese and making it make sense,
you know,
and then also my own personal experiences of being,
(22:48):
you know,
an office worker and,
you know,
sort of working with a very diverse team.
I just came to understand that the experience of working in the office was also a very interesting sociological kind of inquiry for me.
And that's kind of where I ended up in coaching,
(23:11):
I believe because coaching allows me even now to sort of deal with some of the trends and issues that people are experiencing.
Um And I think some of what people experiencing right now,
especially around burnout and the um notion of like just the workplace changing and having all these different expectations and kind of having to roll with it while also being in the midst of the change.
(23:40):
And so I love the notion of being able to support that work,
especially for leaders who are of color and who bring their own stories.
You know,
like the one that I bring,
they're just as complex and interesting and everybody's identity is sort of like unique.
And I think we,
if we address people in the workplace in that way,
it offers up some opportunity points for sort of just creating better systems and better workplaces.
(24:09):
Let's talk a little bit about that burn out.
You know,
I'm sure as a coach and the kind of work that you do now is real,
it's much easier to re evaluate your work before you get burned out because once you get burned out,
it is,
the recovery time is greater.
Um,
of course,
depends on what kind of burnout,
what you've been doing.
So,
(24:29):
can you tell us a little bit about how you got burned out and what you would do differently now or what you would tell your kids about?
Not,
you know,
we're doing the work but not getting burned out.
It's a good question and it's a question that I even had for myself at the outset of my career because a lot of our professors had been practicing attorneys and had that life.
(24:55):
So they often would talk about it.
And so I thought I had a good head on my shoulders that,
you know,
I had boundaries and that I um being a mom,
I was a single mom.
When I started practicing,
I felt I had like built in boundaries in place.
But what I found is that the,
the more I was practicing,
(25:16):
the more responsibility I got as I moved up and became like a senior staff attorney and supervising attorney.
All these things,
I started to have a harder time maintaining boundaries.
I literally went from someone who didn't check my work email after I got home to being someone who consistently checked it all the time,
like all day,
(25:36):
all night because it was in my hand in my phone.
And also as a mom,
always on the go,
always worried about missing something.
I just became very hyper vigilant.
And so some of the burnout I think came from that need to be hyper vigilant.
And some of it was the work itself as a mom,
(25:57):
a single mom and uh someone who came to the field of law without any experience of having lawyers in the family or anything like that.
So I already came with a sense of not necessarily knowing if I knew everything I needed to know.
So that really created a lot of hypervigilance in that I was always trying to make sure I wasn't missing anything,
(26:20):
making sure I was catching all the things that I might not know that other people might know.
Um And that is exhausting and you don't always know you're doing it.
Um And I think it also contributed,
I,
I struggled with depression and anxiety and I think it really raised the anxiety for me.
I didn't even realize how often I was having panic attacks until the pandemic.
(26:44):
So,
was it around the pandemic that you made a,
a career shift away from practicing law?
Um,
that I would say started in about 2017.
Well,
let me just say that I am someone who typically when I'm gonna make a change,
I have a really clear view so I can just go when it came time when I started to feel burnt out on the law and sort of thinking about what kind of lifestyle changes I needed to make.
(27:10):
I really had a hard time envisioning it.
It was just very blank for me and that was not helpful for anxiety.
Um,
but ultimately,
what happened was that I participated in management training and as part of that,
we got coaches and I got a coach who said to me,
I'm gonna coach you on whatever comes up for you.
(27:33):
You know,
if we don't talk about work at all,
if you want to talk about that divorce,
you're dealing with,
we can do that.
And that experience was really life altering for me.
And it led me to pursue coaching and I did a year long training in LA.
I just was basically going back and forth over the course of that between,
(27:56):
I'd be working full time in the law and doing this training and then kind of bringing that back to my legal work as a supervisor trying to coach my team.
And I loved it.
I loved what it did for our relationships.
I loved what it did for the team's cohesion and productivity.
(28:18):
We had a really interesting year where we pursued new work and got some new grants and it was one of my favorite times uh working there,
even though it was a really kind of personally challenging moment because I was going through a divorce.
But it helped me to be able to show up,
still supervising this team,
(28:40):
still experiencing life and to be vulnerable and real with the team was,
it was a gift for me because otherwise I would have held all of that in and felt really ashamed um and tried to come and be like this leader that had all the answers,
which is not sustainable.
(29:02):
It's what I my clients all the time.
You don't have answers.
It's impossible.
And if you try to,
you will become hyper vigilant and burn out just one of the ways you'll burn out.
You know,
it's such that catch 22 of leadership,
you know,
people get these roles.
And I think,
OK,
I've,
I'm here because I know these things and I'm the leader and I need to have all the answers.
(29:23):
And yet the the paradox is that no,
a part of being a good leader is recognizing these other people.
I should,
these other people should be the smartest people in the room.
They should be shining.
I need to get what they've got.
Instead of me as the all powerful leader who is,
I'm,
you know,
I'm telling everybody what to do and they're just the minions that is such an old school way of thinking.
(29:49):
Um And yeah,
it doesn't appeal to me like I couldn't even envision that kind of leadership.
And that was my model from the bosses I had had.
And,
and so learning to coach really helped me formulate my own style of leadership and it really did kind of open up my mind too to how to make a shift.
(30:15):
And that's when I started thinking about becoming an entrepreneur and going into business for myself.
And,
and I'll tell you that took a good five years of self work to feel confident enough to do something like that.
You know,
I'm the sole supporter of my Children.
So it was a big leap.
(30:36):
But it,
it's something that I'm very grateful that I've given myself the chance to experience.
And I love the name of your company,
Transformative Leadership collective.
It's so evocative of,
of what you want in,
in a coach in leadership and management training.
I mean every part of this,
(30:57):
right?
And I love that it's collective because,
well,
tell us about,
tell us about the name and what it means to you,
the name,
it's,
it took me a minute to come up with this name.
It,
you know,
I knew I wanted to have a business,
but I just was struggling with that and the moment that it came to me was the month before the pandemic.
(31:18):
I was having maybe the worst month supervisor wise of my career experiencing a really challenging situation,
unlike anything I had ever experienced.
So in that moment,
what I was thinking about was,
first of all,
transformation has always been at the core of coaching for me,
(31:39):
it's kind of how I learned to coach in the style of transformative coaching.
And I also experienced it myself.
So I know that it works and I've also now kind of added to the the the teachings that I had um with some of the things I've just learned in practice.
(32:00):
And so I wanted that piece around transformation because I think so much of,
of people making changes really is like a shift of your sense of who you are and your sense of identity.
So I wanted that to be very present leadership to me,
I love the word leadership.
I've encountered a lot of people who have a lot of strong feelings about that word,
(32:22):
but I think of it as being something that is present throughout your life.
It's not just something that you do in the workplace,
you might be leading a family.
You are certainly leading your own life.
We don't always think about that.
And then collective for me is just a,
it's a real value of mine,
the collective in the communal.
(32:44):
Even in my legal career,
I never saw myself as the legal expert for my clients.
I was there to provide them with information to support their expert information about their lives.
And so collective liberation is very important to me at all levels.
And so I wanted that to be just part of the name.
(33:08):
I love all parts of that because I agree with everything that you've said there.
And when I,
I was just talking,
I was on a zoom call earlier today with uh with some clients and going through some of the issues that they're facing and their particular people that they are sort of this organization,
a lot of people who are management got there because they were good at something else they were doing,
(33:30):
right?
And they're promoted and this person was talking about department after department that's having these real problems because they know the nuts and bolts of the job.
But it's those people skills.
It's the so called soft skills of we were friends when we were on the line together.
And now that I'm here,
this person is saying they don't like this but in a disrespectful way I disagree with what you're doing or on and on and on and,
(33:56):
and I was,
I'm gonna come and do some training,
but it's a one off,
it's a day and I,
I see the writing on the wall,
what they need is management training,
they need leadership training,
they need coaching so that they will be empowered so that they can see so that somebody can,
can give them another view of,
you know,
(34:17):
possibilities.
Why would people know how to manage,
which is different than leading,
but manage and,
and lead in this really efficacious,
fruitful,
empowering,
engaging way if they're not trained and not one off training,
continual,
sustained leadership opportunities and engagement.
(34:38):
So why do you think there's such a a hole in the vision from the leaders of offering these or even requiring these for their,
their managers and their leaders?
I mean,
what I hear often is that it's the sense of there just not being enough resources,
(34:58):
that's always at least in the nonprofit sector.
The first thing that is said for any kind of new initiative,
I think what it is is just not valuing the relational skills that are required to lead people and manage people.
Um And,
and part of that is maybe just societally,
(35:20):
we don't typically just the fact that we call them soft skills.
Um and we tend to maybe think of them also in a gendered way.
And so I think what I,
what I see as being the most important thing that you need to teach new managers is how to manage people,
(35:41):
right?
Like you have to know that it's not about how much,
you know,
at that point,
like you got here because of how much,
you know,
and that's certainly important to leading people when you have to give them substantive,
you know,
support.
But really what you have to do and is,
is figure out what makes people motivate,
(36:02):
what do,
what do you need to motivate your team?
What do you need to,
you know,
find out?
Well,
so and so is having a hard time over there,
I don't really know what I'm seeing,
but I'm,
I'm seeing it impact on our team.
You can't avoid that.
A lot of times people don't know what to do.
So they just do nothing.
(36:22):
And I think that comes from not having been given the skill set because there are some skill sets required.
I had to learn some of them.
And a lot of it too is also doing self reflection about what we bring to the workplace that might not be about the workplace,
you know?
Absolutely.
(36:44):
It's so interesting to me that when we think somebody comes to work and it as if they just came out of the womb,
you know,
they're just fresh,
they're not coming with experiences in other places,
their own,
growing up their own current home life,
social situation.
That's every single person in the workplace.
Right.
And I absolutely agree that we don't value care very well.
(37:08):
I've been t so I got out of teaching,
but I'm teaching this semester for a professor who is on leave and I was just recently doing ethics of care.
And,
you know,
Carol Gilligan talks a lot about how,
what we value and what we don't value and we don't value quote unquote what we call domestic work.
And we see that right?
It's not paid,
it's supposed to be free labor,
(37:29):
right?
This free emotional labor and that gets offloaded and we see it as just,
yeah,
obviously not valuable.
And yet I,
I absolutely believe the quality of our life has to do with the quality of our relationships.
That means how we care and how we are cared for.
And these are all reciprocal relationships.
(37:50):
And that's why I really like this idea of the collective,
which is not just me coming in,
in my individual bubble,
but it's this robust,
you know,
I am this,
I am this individual and I am enmeshed in these networks and how I manage those networks,
has everything to do with what I'm going to be able to do what other people are going to be able to do.
(38:12):
And if we want to be excellent and we want to be,
you know,
have the,
if we want to move forward in society,
we need to figure out how to,
how to be human at work and other places as well.
But Right.
Absolutely.
And II I think the benefit if there,
(38:33):
if we can say that of having experienced the global pandemic is that people being at home made it very clear that we're all human beings,
right?
Like you're in your living room,
on your couch,
you have a cat.
Oh,
you have a cat.
Look at the tail,
you know what I'm saying?
(38:56):
Just stripped away any facade that people tend to bring with them into the workplace.
And I think it also forced employers to have to think about people's feelings and their mental health and,
and have to really consider how the policies they were creating in those moments would impact those things.
(39:20):
And no,
that's not really how any policies have ever been created in the workplace,
I don't think.
No.
Yeah,
absolutely.
It is an opportunity.
Who wants to look at the,
what we've been going through?
Gosh,
there are always hard times.
I think sometimes the history are a little bit harder than others,
but they really are opportunities to rewrite policy,
(39:43):
rewrite.
So not only am I interested in policies and those sorts of organizations,
am I interested in space because we are embodied creatures and how those spaces,
you know,
and I,
I,
you know,
write absolutely the tail going by the person walking by,
you know,
ducking down,
you know,
seeing people in,
in their homes.
The last part of my teaching was online and people are in their,
(40:05):
you know,
these kids are,
students are in their bedrooms and,
you know,
blanket around their head as,
as,
you know,
we talk about something philosophical but the physical environment.
And when I,
when I look at these open open plan environments or these cubicles,
I think this was some sort of science fiction dream written by robots for robots certainly.
(40:26):
Or people in the c suite who were behind closed doors,
um Not even imagining or this fantasy of,
oh,
they're gonna be around so they can communicate with one another.
Not thinking the person next to them is gonna be eating a tuna fish sandwich and,
you know,
whatever it might be of just what it means to be a physical person in a physical space,
(40:48):
in a work environment and how these different environments,
physically and psychologically bring the best out of us,
make us so that we're just operating minimally or demoralizing.
Absolutely.
Can you tell us about a difficult situation?
You faced a conflict with somebody and,
and how you dealt with it?
(41:09):
Yes.
And I thought I was trying to figure out which one do I wanna,
I wanna choose and I think I'll choose.
So I,
I will say I'm one of those people who probably never had conflict in the workplace before,
let's say 2015,
I just avoided it at all costs and didn't need to have really,
didn't,
(41:29):
didn't encounter too many opportunities for conflict to arise because I think that comes back to my valuing of relationships and conflict started to arise more so around me,
not so much involving me.
And as a result of that,
our whole management team received some training on how to have courageous conversations is what they were calling it.
(41:55):
I've also heard this like fierce conversations,
difficult conversations,
right?
And that was an opportunity that really helped me.
Kind of,
first of all,
think about like conflict is not inherently bad.
And if it's not inherently bad,
that means that there are ways to have it that actually are beneficial and create movement,
(42:16):
which is kind of the idea.
And so that was the first thing and then it was OK.
Well,
what is so triggering for me because it was very,
very triggering and I never wanted to feel that in the workplace,
which is why I avoided at all costs.
And so then I had to do some thinking and some self-awareness work and some work with my therapist on early childhood trauma stuff,
(42:40):
right?
Like the things that we carry with us and we don't always know is there until it comes up because of something,
someone said the way they said it.
So I got to do that and then I got to learn,
not every conflict needs to be confronted.
Maybe so there's a way to assess like,
is this the right moment?
Is this the right time to say this is this gonna make an impact that's positive.
(43:04):
Like,
OK,
how do you do that?
And then it was like,
OK,
now here's how you do the conversation.
You gotta actually sit down across from someone,
you gotta ask them to come to the table and,
and then you have to prepare yourself so that you can listen and actually be open to what they're saying.
(43:25):
And I think the biggest thing that I learned was curiosity too.
It's like,
and,
and,
and assuming that people have good intentions that they really don't know all the time that they've stepped on your toes.
So if you can at least assume they didn't know,
then it's easier to be curious about why that happened.
(43:46):
And to take that curiosity to a point of like,
OK,
well,
help me understand.
I would like to understand and I would like you to understand.
I think that quells the anxiety that is under the surface in any kind of conflict situation.
It,
I think it really helps and I think what I experienced in trying it in the workplace was that it was actually easier than I expected,
(44:12):
you know,
when I had steps to follow.
And I didn't have to like just operate in a moment of triggered anxiety.
I could,
I could do it.
And so I think that that is part of what people need is the opportunity to practice because we got to first practice with each other.
And then we had to like make a list of people we wanted to go and like practice with outside of our group.
(44:35):
Um And that was a little scarier,
but everyone had a good experience,
like nobody came back and was like,
they yelled at me and I feel terrible.
Now I love everything that you've said.
And I feel like you're giving the talk that I normally give to people and you know,
it start,
it started as you said,
with curiosity about yourself,
I'm having this experience instead of lashing out and saying,
(44:58):
and you're doing this to me to be able to take that step back and say,
why does this bother me?
Right.
What's going on with me?
And,
and then those and as you said,
not everything needs to be said,
right?
So some of those things are me problem and if,
if they are,
then that's the place I need to deal with them or sometimes I'm mad at you,
but it actually is an organizational issue,
(45:20):
right?
And so if we can take so that we can really see what's going on and what is it that I actually need?
And what is it that I want and then how to go about doing that?
And it starts with that conversation with ourselves because we've got to deescalated ourselves,
right?
If we think about having those,
I say difficult conversations and I know I know people don't like that.
(45:41):
Why are you calling it difficult.
Well,
if it's difficult for you,
it is,
let's not pretend it isn't if it's not fine,
you know,
but if it's difficult for you,
it is fine so we can do difficult things.
I don't,
I think we should encourage people to.
But as you said,
that step by step and every time you do it,
you get this,
you get confidence and that's how you build capacity by seeing the world didn't fall apart.
(46:06):
When I said this,
when I invited someone to the table and every time we get a win,
we're more likely to do it.
We're more likely to do it because we build confidence and conflict management.
I always say is about personal empowerment.
You're not,
you give your power away when you need the other person to move first,
you need them to apologize,
you need them to have a lobotomy or something that's just not going to help you get on with it and have the kind of life that you want.
(46:35):
And what is it that you want for yourself then you know,
moving through those steps and they are just skills to learn and develop.
And it feels scary because we always think about the end product,
right?
So like wanting to be an entrepreneur,
if you think,
well,
I want to have a successful business as,
as a boom,
(46:55):
I get it right away.
It,
it doesn't work that way.
You have to be to be ready for the journey.
Shoot the journey.
Yes,
I'm on that journey,
right?
As you look into the future of work and you think about your kids and others out into the workforce.
What is it that you think needs to happen?
(47:17):
So that not only is everyone from the part time seasonal worker to the c suite person so that everyone is treated with dignity and respect and encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Hm,
I have to say I,
I was lucky enough to have the experience of being in a unionized environment and a nonunionized environment.
(47:40):
And so I think what people who get that benefit of being in a unionized environment is they get to have some of the basics about the work experience kind of set out for them so that everyone kind of knows what to do.
And I think when you don't have that,
there's a lot of people just doing what they have to,
(48:04):
to,
you know,
get it,
get by and keep things moving.
I think I'd like to see us recognize that there is more time than we think that it's possible to do the work of now and the long term work at the same time.
And that,
that work is exciting and interesting and that we don't actually have a blueprint for what these future workplaces and organizations might look like,
(48:35):
but we know what isn't working.
And I think this younger generation has a very strong sense of justice.
Um And even what I've seen in the folks I've worked with so millennials and some Gen Z a lot of commitment to,
to work,
you know,
that I think there's,
they get a bad rap because they want good working conditions.
(49:00):
I think there's this idea that like,
they don't wanna work.
And uh frankly,
I,
I appreciated the energy that the younger generation brought to my workplace.
It helped move change so much more quickly than when a small group of Gen Zs were trying to do it up against the boomer generation.
(49:24):
Uh There just was no movement on the,
we couldn't get traction on the issues that bothered us issues around equity issues,
around policy,
like the things we've been talking about.
And so I really think it's gonna require some bravery,
some creativity and a willingness to just do things different and see what happens and kind of like workshop it as you go.
(49:51):
Yeah,
I love that while we don't know what's going to be,
you know,
what A I is going to be doing and just the technological revolution as it keeps on unraveling at this breakneck speed,
we do know the workplace is going to be populated with people.
We know that and we do know as you said,
what has not worked.
(50:11):
And I agree all the young people I've worked with want to work and they're creative,
but they are not going to accept or don't want to accept these dead end jobs where they're getting paid minimum wage where all of these things are out of reach and they are saying no,
no,
thank you as they ought to.
Right.
And learning from that.
(50:33):
So,
yes,
I love the way that you put that.
I think it's very,
very evocative of a,
a blueprint forward of when we don't know exactly what it is,
but we know that's where we wanna go.
Mhm.
And I think the other part of that is a lot of the sort of leader level,
the senior leadership level has to actively make space for the new generation of leaders.
(51:00):
And I've seen a lot of organizations where le senior leaders are retiring,
but they did nothing to support that next level of leadership so that they have the benefit of their leadership to bring forward.
And I think that's a loss and a shame.
Um and a and a potential,
(51:23):
you know,
lost opportunity for just developing the next generation of leaders,
which is just,
that's,
that's my thing.
Yeah,
you're so right.
And I,
I know uh listeners,
you can't see this,
but as your arms are going up,
I think,
you know,
this traditional sort of structure of leadership where if we flatten things out and we think more about layering and peppering the c sweet person is going to be able to see,
(51:48):
oh what actually works,
what doesn't work and we're going to be able to hear these different voices and train in this kind of way.
So that I've been in universities most of my life,
it's a very hierarchical and it shows and,
and there are these supers structural issues about when it comes to how humans are treated,
(52:09):
um whether they're faculty,
staff or students.
And it's,
it's very tough when these systems are so rigid and they just get passed down.
And instead of being shown as you said,
this new way and continual training so that we turn things for the human community and break down the these false false status barriers,
(52:30):
which are barriers.
Absolutely.
We didn't get to talk about some of my best and worst experiences.
But one of the key indicators for me was how much of a gatekeeper was my boss.
That's how I could tell.
Like,
were they supportive or were they gatekeeping?
And unfortunately,
(52:51):
there's a lot of gatekeeping.
Yeah,
you're right.
We've,
we've almost at an hour and we've just been,
we've been chatting and I appreciate it so much.
Thank you for being on conflict managed.
I just really enjoyed our conversation and getting to know you.
I did as well and I look forward to continuing the conversation.
Absolutely.
Take care.
Thank you Nasoan
(53:12):
thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed.
I could have just talked to you all day long and,
and you are right.
There are some things I didn't get to that.
I usually like to ask guests.
Thank you for your time.
And sharing your experiences with us.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(53:33):
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (53:40):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's a tips of what not to do and start a conversation about what do we want at work?
What does it really mean to be professional,
which is specific to who you are and where you work.
So,
starting those conversations,
our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
And remember,
(54:00):
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
Take care.
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