May 14, 2024 • 57 mins
🎙This week on Conflict Managed we are joined by Dr. Hector Escalante, the Director of the Office of the Ombuds at the University of California, Merced.
Join us as we discuss:
🚧The amazing and needed work of Organizational Ombuds
🔊The power of deep listening and being heard
👩‍💻Handling work conflict as a bystander
🚦Thinking through the risks and rewards of speaking up
⛵The growth and journey of careers
Dr. Hector Escalante immigrated from Baja California, Mexico to America with his parents and sister when he was 2 years old. He grew up in Oxnard, California and then moved to Central California when he was 15. After graduating from high school, Hector enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and served 6 years in the reserves as a radio operator. Hector began a career in the cable tv industry and decided to go to college in his early 30s. He enjoyed higher education so much that he went on to earn a Master of Fine Arts, a Master of Education and a doctorate in education. Upon completing his academic pursuits, Hector served as faculty, dean of students and a director of academic affairs. He was the inaugural ombuds for the University of the Pacific and continues to offer ombuds services to small non-profit organizations. Hector specializes in conflict resolution, healthy communication, and learning and development that promotes inclusion, healthy communication, and conflict resolution. Hector’s passions include treating all with fairness, equity, dignity, and compassion. He loves eating good food, the outdoors and spending time with friends and family.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps.
Now,
get a sound side uptight.
Jack asking questions.
(00:26):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Doctor Hector Escalante who is the director of the Office of the Ombuds,
the University of California Merced. Hector immigrated from Baja California,
Mexico to America with his parents and sister.
When he was two years old.
He grew up in Oxnard,
California and then moved to Central California when he was 15.
(00:48):
After graduating from high school,
Hector enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and served six years in the Reserves as a radio operator.
Hector began a career in the cable TV industry and decided to go to college in his early thirties.
He enjoyed higher education so much that he went on to earn a master's of fine arts and master of education and a doctorate in education.
Upon completing his academic pursuits,
(01:10):
Hector served as faculty,
dean of students and a Director of Academic Affairs.
He was the inaugural Ombuds for the University of the Pacific and continues to offer OMBUD services to small nonprofit organizations.
He specializes in conflict resolution,
healthy communication and learning and development that promotes inclusion,
healthy communication and conflict resolution.
(01:32):
Hector's passions include treating all with fairness,
equity,
dignity and compassion.
He loves eating good food,
the outdoors and spending time with his friends and family.
Good morning Hector and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Good morning Mary.
How are you today?
I'm doing just great.
Looks like a nice sunshiny day where you can be the most of the time here in the changes all the time.
(02:00):
So you never know what you're going to get.
So,
I suppose if you like being surprised Tennessee weather is for you.
Well,
so Hector,
I would like to begin with how I usually start this podcast by finding out what is the first job you ever had as a young person?
Well,
um,
that's a great question and,
and I,
I kind of go back and forth on what I considered a first job.
(02:21):
So the first job where I made money,
I was a paper boy in Oxnard,
California and I was a young lad.
I was probably pen and,
um,
it's the first time I had to handle money and I remember,
you know,
getting up super early in the morning having to roll all those papers up and then delivering them and,
(02:45):
and then every month collecting money.
And that was when I first felt like I had to be responsible because I had cash in my hands and I,
you know,
was responsible for that money.
So I consider that,
that a job.
I,
I would say my first really full time job.
I was a courtesy clerk at a grocery store in a really small town,
uh,
called Lockford California.
(03:06):
And I bagged groceries and this is,
you know,
1617 by then.
And it seems really young to have that kind of job.
Do you remember at all how that came about?
I had a buddy,
a friend who was a little bit older than I was and he always had money.
He always had money for food and cut candy.
And,
you know,
and,
(03:26):
uh,
and I thought,
well,
you know,
how,
how do you do that?
How do you get money?
I,
I didn't grow up in a household where I received allowance that just wasn't part of our,
you know,
experience.
And,
um,
and when I asked my buddy about it,
he's like,
well,
it's pretty simple.
You just go,
you know,
apply for a,
uh,
paper boy job.
We called it back then.
(03:47):
I don't know what they are called now.
Um,
and,
uh,
I,
I got the job and so it,
it was kind of a long shot but I,
I think I've,
you know,
I always had the mentality of being a hard worker and I probably get that from my dad.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
I,
it was for the money Mary,
I wanted,
(04:09):
you want to get that candy.
So,
what do you think about being at the grocery store?
What was the environment like there?
What was the management like that?
That's a really great question.
Takes me back quite a few years.
So the grocery store was a small grocery store and Lockford is just a tiny little community as you drive up into the Sierras,
(04:30):
into the.
It's so it's somewhat in the foothills of California and uh uh a lot of uh vacationers would stop there to get ice and soda and beer and stuff like that.
And so it was a pretty busy grocery stores,
mom and pop type of store owned by a family and the father who started it was somewhat retired.
(04:50):
So it was run by three brothers and um they were fairly young to be running a business.
So it was pretty foot loose and fancy free.
Um They,
they didn't provide us a lot of management uh or guidance.
They basically,
you know,
we put a uh an apron on and said go go pack groceries.
(05:10):
And I think um one of the brothers showed me how,
how to,
you know,
pack a bag and not smash the eggs.
And um but otherwise it was a lot of autonomy.
It was a lot of autonomy and then being young and having um some young colleagues at the time,
we would do crazy stuff in the warehouse,
you know,
throw cans across the room and,
(05:31):
you know,
just do silly things that that young people do.
So I think my biggest memory uh about that job was that I was making pretty good money as a young person.
And uh I was learning about interacting with people and being up front,
you know,
people are pretty picky about their food and if you mess it up,
you find out.
(05:52):
So I found out that I had this kind of like,
I don't know if you want to call it a talent or a skill,
but I was pretty good communicator.
And I,
I remember one particular employee there who,
who was uh uh Rang,
rang people in.
She,
she said one time to me,
Hector,
you can talk out of a paperback and I wasn't sure what that meant at the time.
(06:14):
And later I realized what she meant was that I was pretty good at talking with people.
And I think that kind of led my,
you know,
my trajectory in my career somewhat and it's probably why I do what I do now.
So,
yeah,
you know,
those,
those first jobs can teach us so much about the world about ourselves.
(06:34):
Right?
And so we're around other young people and a lot of times it's,
it's their first jobs and personalities come out and things that we didn't even know was a particular skill or a gift because it's just who we are,
right?
We grew up in a particular family in this smaller little community and then we go out,
you know,
we have school friends or we're exposed to people at school,
(06:56):
but there's something about the world of work,
we kind of pulls out parts of our personality.
And so for her to recognize that in you and for that to really resonate with you that you remember it all these years later.
Right?
Yeah,
clearly you are a people person and enjoy interacting with individuals,
having a career in peacemaking and conflict management and ombud.
(07:18):
So when you went on to college,
what did you major in?
So I majored in English and I,
I was a late bloomer when it comes to college.
What's really interesting about that first full time job is I met a person that became my best friend and he talked me into joining the Marine Corps.
So I went from being this young kid,
(07:40):
you know,
working in a grocery store turned 18 and jumped right into the military.
So before I went to college,
I spent some time in the Marine Corps Marine Corps Reserve.
And um that was also pretty influential in my,
in my career.
And when I came back,
I was well in the military,
(08:01):
I was the first an infantryman and then I was a radio man.
So I had somewhat of a background in electronics in my very first like real real job was with the cable company.
So I worked in the cable company in my twenties,
late twenties into my thirties before I even went to college.
So to answer your question in my thirties ish.
(08:22):
I decided to go get an,
a,
a in electronics of all things because I was working in a cable company and I found that I really liked school and I went actually to get the,
a,
a ended up taking an English class as part of the requirement and I loved.
Right.
I,
I realized that I had this other ability that I never knew I had is I like to write and I could write fairly well and I switched from electronics to English and then that kind of evolved into this idea of,
(08:54):
well,
maybe I should like become a high school teacher.
I don't know if you remember the,
the old movie stand and delivered with Jaime Escalante,
you know,
we share the same last name,
all that we're not related.
And uh I thought maybe I could be the next Escalante,
you know,
and teach high school English and change kids lives.
Um So I,
I ended up uh graduated with a Bachelor's degree in majoring in English and also on a track to get my teaching credential.
(09:22):
And in California they're pretty strict about how you become a teacher.
Anyway.
I,
I did end up getting a job as a high school teacher.
I got my degree and I thought I'm quitting cable,
going back,
going into the classroom and I lasted about a year in high school.
The kids ate me up and spit me out.
And I,
I didn't realize what I was getting myself into and it just wasn't for me.
(09:46):
So I ended up going back to the cable industry for a few years and then decided to get a master's degree and that turned into pursuing a doctorate.
And I just found that I really loved higher education.
So I went back into education,
higher education and started teaching at the college level.
Once I got my master's degree,
I could teach at the college level.
(10:07):
And that's kind of where I settled into higher education.
So your 18 year old self,
would you have thought that you to me?
Did you always have a love for education or did that surprise you?
No.
You know,
in my household,
I,
I'm a Mexican immigrant.
My dad was an immigrant.
My mom,
both my mom and dad were born in Mexico.
(10:30):
Met in Mexico.
I was born in Mexico and we came to America and I was really young like three.
And it,
it pretty much I was raised in,
in that Hispanic kind of old traditional Hispanic Mexican household where,
you know,
the dad was the iron,
you know,
(10:50):
iron thumb and,
and yet everything really was led by the matriarchy by my mom and her sisters.
And my dad would always tell me he was a grocer.
He,
he ended up starting a grocery store.
He would always tell me Hector don't go to college,
they don't treat brown people well,
in this system,
get a job with a pension.
That was his idea of success.
(11:11):
And he told me one time it doesn't matter if you're a trash collector,
go work for the city,
get a pension,
you'll be set for life and get a stable income.
So,
that was his idea of success.
My mom,
on the other hand,
I don't know how,
but she,
she encouraged,
she knew intuitively that college was probably a better route than being a trash collector,
(11:32):
not nothing against trash trash collectors.
Um And so she would encourage me as a young person.
So she was super disappointed when I didn't go to college.
She,
she actually cried and lamented many times and my mom is,
you know,
she's a very passive aggressive person and she constantly would bring that up in one way or another.
So,
(11:52):
um I never would have thought to go to college.
I,
I,
my idea of success was to have a stable job and it wasn't,
it was because of a very influential teacher in my,
a,
a program,
uh an English teacher.
I'll never forget her,
Doctor Webber who uh I wrote an essay about one of my experiences in,
(12:13):
in Panama as a marine.
I agree.
And she gave me back my essay with a split grade.
It was an F at the top and an A at the bottom and I was confused.
So,
is it an F or is it an A?
So I went up to her,
you know,
very,
very politely and humbly because I'm a pretty quiet person.
And,
and I just asked her,
(12:33):
I said,
Doctor Weber,
I don't understand,
I don't understand the grade.
And she said Hector,
this paper is publishable.
You're a really good writer,
but your grammar sucks.
So you got an F for grammar but an A for content.
And then it was because of her encouragement throughout that,
just one English one a that uh I,
(12:54):
that she encouraged me to go on to get my bachelor's degree.
Otherwise I,
I would have just settled with my A a and the last thing I'll say about my education is I have the,
this is not your bris to subscribe.
I have actually five degrees and the,
the degree I'm most proud of is my,
a,
a degree.
So I have a doctorate,
a master of fine arts,
(13:15):
a Bachelor degree.
Uh Another master of fine arts in another in creative non fiction writing.
And um and my a is the degree I'm most proud of.
That is so interesting.
And is it because of that experience with her or,
or why is that the most valuable to you?
Well,
it was in that two year program that I realized that I could,
(13:36):
I was smart enough to go to school and that,
that's related to your question.
I didn't think I was smart enough to be a college person.
I didn't grow up with that kind of encouragement and I didn't think I could afford it.
So that,
that degree opened up the doors for me and the influence of not only the one teacher but others that I realized that I could do pretty well.
(13:59):
I ended up graduating at the top of my class in all my program.
So it's like I,
I didn't realize I was smart,
I'm a smart person and I didn't,
I didn't think I was,
I struggled in high school.
Uh So when I was married,
when I was 5.5 years old,
and I went to kindergarten,
my teacher told my parents that I was mentally retarded and it was because I couldn't understand what they were saying.
(14:25):
I didn't speak English.
So,
and this is in the sixties,
right?
So they still use that word,
which we don't use anymore.
But so I think that might have had an influence on how and my own perception and my own,
you know,
uh sense of uh ability.
It's so interesting what we pick up about ourselves from our surroundings.
(14:47):
What people say,
what they don't say.
I was just an average high school student,
you know,
CC plus maybe.
And I was undiagnosed dyslexic and I just thought school really is for me.
I'm o I'm OK.
I mean,
I like who I was but I just didn't think I was,
I didn't excel like my sister and I thought I'll go into college because that was a expectation.
(15:11):
But I never thought I would excel.
And my first semester in college in order to keep the scholarship that I had gotten,
somehow I had to do well.
And I got all A's and I,
and I found philosophy.
So I taught philosophy for over 20 years and it was that experience.
I just had no idea.
It was a thing.
(15:32):
it resonated with who I am.
And it's so interesting how,
what changes,
what pivots our life such as your friend at the grocery grocery store saying,
hey,
let's go to the marines and then you have all of these amazing experiences and I'm sure that was a transformational experience as well.
And all of these experiences that we collect and what door we choose to go down sometimes seems like it's chance fate,
(16:03):
but it's these,
these new opportunities that we,
we find and we find new ways to think about ourselves in our own gifts.
Right?
Yeah.
And it's a continual journey.
It's a,
it's like a,
you know,
a growth journey where you learn different things about yourself.
And,
and it,
it took me a while,
you know,
I I'm somewhat of a late bloomer,
I would say,
(16:23):
uh even to get to where I am now in conflict resolution,
it's not where I initially intended to be,
but somehow,
you know,
I'm here and I think that's a combination of,
of hard work and,
and also good timing,
you know,
and,
and I also,
I'm a spiritual person,
I think,
you know,
sometimes the universe or God or whatever,
(16:45):
however you want to frame that has a plan and,
and,
you know,
and it all comes together somehow.
So tell us about your work.
So you are at University Ombuds.
How did you get into that line of work?
And first I've had other om buds on the show,
but I always like somebody to explain what it is because many people are unfamiliar with organizational ombuds.
(17:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Giving you just a real without going too deep into the topic.
It's a very interesting role.
Originally,
ombudsman is the,
you know,
the kind of more original term and has evolved in um but it's more neutral uh gender neutral term.
Um It's been around in,
in California or in the United States,
I would say since maybe the early sixties because of some of the civil rights and,
(17:30):
and the,
the conflict that was occurring on universities.
But originally this started way back.
There's even some evidence that that the Celtic people,
the Vikings had an ombudsman which was kind of the,
the representative for people.
It has evolved into what we now call an organizational ombuds.
There are different types of ombuds and we are conflict resolution people.
(17:53):
So most ombuds have follow some kind of standard.
Uh And I follow the International Ombuds Association standards of confidentiality which is probably one of the most powerful aspects of ombudsmen and Buz.
And uh with the exception of eminent risk,
serious harm to self for others were confidential.
So that creates a very unique space,
(18:14):
right?
For people to come talk about what's going on at work.
Most most ombuds are uh neutral,
third parties.
Although I have something to say in an opinion about being neutral and impartial,
we're also usually independent,
which is um some type of paradox.
If you work internally in an organization,
I like to say we're autonomous,
but we are try to function at least in perception um independently and we're informal.
(18:40):
Um So most people are familiar with hr and,
and internal audit and general councils and,
and formal entities that deal with workplace matters.
The ombuds again,
something very unique about us is that we're informal.
So we don't get involved in,
in formal types of processes.
And,
and III I think of us as having a dual mandate.
(19:04):
One is to help people work through workplace conflict it at all levels regardless of what the conflict is and also as a change agent for the organization.
So I in if we're ombuds scene,
well,
we're impacting the climate,
the morale uh retention.
Um Also,
you know,
in higher ed,
(19:24):
there's not only retention but recruitment is important,
just attracting people.
So the ombuds can have that kind of influence in our art and I could go on and on about that Mary.
Uh,
but that's,
that's,
um,
that's kind of an overview of how I see ombuds anyway.
And so how did you find yourself in an ombuds role?
(19:46):
Well,
I think it was fortuitous and also maybe just meant to be.
So,
I,
I've been ombudsman about 10 years.
So I,
it took me a while to,
to get there,
you know,
we were talking about my career track.
It took a long time for me to actually get into an ombuds role.
So I was,
I was a professor for a while.
(20:06):
I taught English and writing and in classes around communication.
And uh um there's a whole part of my life,
I'll leave out because it'll take up too much time.
But I worked for this small nonprofit school called Heald College that ended up closing.
They got caught up in,
they went from nonprofit to profit,
but got bought up by Corinthian,
(20:27):
a huge company that uh owned all kinds of other schools that were more career type schools and,
and uh ended up shutting down because of what happened with financial aid,
the big financial aid fiasco.
And so I moved from working as a teacher into a space of learning and development.
So I got a job,
(20:48):
one of my master's degrees is in curriculum development.
So I got a job in the university as a learning development program manager.
And my job was to design,
develop,
implement and assess curriculum for faculty and staff in a variety of areas.
And one of the big ones that kept coming up for me was conflict resolution and communication and,
(21:11):
you know,
having difficult conversations and giving feedback.
So I would get a request for,
hey,
Hector,
can you create a one day training for my staff?
And we,
we want to improve our communication skills.
So that kind of led me down this path of really digging into what is conflict resolution.
And I,
I don't come from ad r alternative dispute resolution.
I'm an educator,
(21:32):
I'm a curricular list.
You know,
my job was to create curriculum and I found that area fascinating because it had to do with people,
right?
And how we get along in the workplace.
And I became known as the guy you call when there was conflict in your unit.
And I would come into trainings along with a team of,
of professionals that were,
(21:53):
that were part of the team and maybe two years into that job,
a position opened up and at the time,
it was called an ombudsman and it was a part time job.
So I need a full time job.
So I didn't even look at it.
They,
it was a failed search.
Long story short.
They brought it back as a full time position and and tragically,
there had been a rape on campus maybe a few years ago and that's what caused this,
(22:17):
this need,
you know,
and people,
faculty and staff joined forces and basically demanded an ombuds to be hired.
And that's when a colleague of mine who knew what I did and knew my work came to me and said,
Hector,
you need to apply for this job.
And I didn't even know what it was.
I'd heard the term in the military,
but I never used an ombuds.
So when I looked at the job description,
(22:39):
I thought I could do this.
I,
I've been working in conflict already because I've been training people around this content.
And I had zero experience as an ombuds,
no background in my education.
And I could not point to one place where it would say Hector is a conflict resolution expert.
Anyway,
long story short there,
(22:59):
I applied and competed with other people who had experience and I was offered the job with the con contingency of becoming certified in a year and also piloting the program.
So I developed the program.
So as I was the inaugural Ombuds there and I think I got the job.
(23:20):
Well,
I know now because I had taught there,
I knew staff very well and it happened to be my alma mater.
So I received one of my master's degrees there.
So I had AAA perspective that a lot of people didn't have.
I was,
I knew what it meant to be a faculty staff and a student.
So I think that's why they got the they offered me the job.
(23:41):
Long story there.
Sorry.
I think it's interesting when I talk to people in this space that very rarely,
maybe one time have I talked to somebody?
Uh,
it was Claire Flower and she,
she's a vice president for media.com and she found mediation when she was,
I think in third grade she had some sort of conflict class and from there she just sort of knew that's what she wanted to do.
(24:03):
But almost everybody that I talked to who does some sort of ad r professionally comes about it around in a round about outweigh and it's,
it's their skills,
their experiences and think about transferable skills.
Um A lot of,
of course,
you know,
being an ombud is being able to listen and empower others and,
(24:24):
you know,
as,
as somebody who knows how to research,
you know,
finding and correlating those different options for people,
but being for others that is,
I think something that comes out in people's work and you can kind of chart what they have done and see how this would be,
this really people intense job would be good for them or that they would be fit for it.
(24:48):
And so when I was thinking about talking to you today,
I have a question for you.
So you've been in this business for a while and when you talk with people,
a lot of times there's a lot of pain,
right?
There's a lot of pain associated with,
with workplace conflict and all the different sorts of things that go on.
How do you as a professional deal with hearing constantly,
(25:10):
the pain that people are in?
Yeah,
that's a real,
really great question.
I,
I have been hearing from other ombuds that they're finding it more and more difficult to stay in a,
in an impartial or neutral space because of the pain and trauma that,
that they're hearing and also because of the state of our,
(25:31):
the state of our world,
you know,
and,
and how polarized things are and it's making it really difficult I think to,
to stay healthy and,
and,
and at the same time to help people.
And my,
my theory,
my hypothesis,
maybe this would be a good research topic is that one of the things that is so rewarding about being in ombuds is that you get to hear a very unfiltered stories,
(26:00):
true stories of how people are experiencing the world and experiencing trauma and pain.
And many times you're the first person that they actually will share without holding anything back to me,
that's a,
that's just takes an incredible amount of trust for someone to open up like that and tell you about their pain and,
(26:21):
and then to find a way to help them.
So,
so being,
I think being neutral is just really literally impossible as a person.
So the what's helped me kind of reconcile where,
where I land when I really hear a painful story is that I,
I am in that moment,
being partial with the person I am,
you know,
aligned and empathetic with how they're feeling.
(26:45):
And also I also know it's,
it's not my personal burden to carry,
right?
Even though I can be in that moment ve very compassionate and empathetic,
my goal is to help that person.
So the more I can help someone in pain,
the more it actually rejuvenates me.
So instead of dialing it down,
(27:05):
I think we need to dial it up and be,
be willing to jump into the fray when,
when there are,
you know,
really horrible things happening and,
or when people are in conflict and,
and there are two sides,
three sides.
Our job is to remain in that,
in that liminal space,
that middle uh which to me is,
is a very unique space.
(27:27):
I uh I was listening to a news uh uh morning news,
um you know,
talking heads and one of the persons was a,
a very famous journalist who had interviewed many,
many presidents and she said something that really struck my attention.
She said that the being neutral or how did she say the hottest um parts of hell are reserved for those who remain neutral.
(27:52):
And I was like,
whoa,
you know,
that's how,
I mean,
that's kind of where we are right now,
right?
And yet that's our job is to be,
to be in the middle.
And to me that's a unique space and a place where we can offer a unique contribution to help where not a lot of people can live in that space,
right?
So,
yeah,
(28:12):
I love what you said in this sort of idea of uh leaning in to a person's story.
One thing that people want is they want a kind of validation,
they want to,
they want to be heard.
And a lot of times when people are talking,
the other person is listening to judge,
you know,
like,
is this true?
Is this not true?
Is this?
How valid is this?
How important is this?
(28:32):
And,
and when I talk with people through mediation or whatever it is that I'm doing,
I believe them,
this is,
I believe what they are saying because this is what is true for them.
And then when I talk to the other person,
maybe in a conflict that they give me the polar opposite that happens,
I believe them too.
And I can be present.
(28:53):
I can hold both of those things at the same time because ultimately,
as you said,
it's not my burden.
I am not the arbitrator,
I'm not saying who's right and wrong.
I,
you know,
in,
in the sense of sort of you're right,
you're wrong about this,
that I could be present with both of them at that time and lend them that deep listening and the and presence so that so that they can have space to work it out,
(29:17):
right?
If we never offer that to people then how are they even going to understand themselves?
How are they going to make this progress with the other or with the organization or whatever it is that's going on?
And I think for my years of teaching philosophy and you,
you know,
you just hear all these interesting positions and I think,
(29:37):
oh,
that sounds problematic to me or what not.
And always realizing it is not my job to mold them in my image.
It is my job to help them grow and develop into whoever they are going to be and they're not finished at 18.
And I'm glad they articulated this position and they are people on the way just as I am developing.
And if we don't give grace or space for people to be heard and to express themselves and if they have views that we don't like,
(30:07):
first of all,
people don't have to believe everything that we believe.
But how,
how are we going to make progress?
I think we have stunted ourselves in this culture by,
by just not allowing people like we have to be finished and we have to be on this side or that side.
And I just don't see how that really helps us to move forward as individuals or people.
(30:29):
I think we're,
we've lost that space.
We and we continue to lose that ability to,
to be multi partial.
You know,
that's a term that ombuds have thrown around and I started using the term uh being equi partial.
So I think we're losing that ability to sit in a room with difference and it doesn't help with what's going on in the world,
(30:52):
obviously.
And this is nothing new.
If you look at the cycle of history,
we've been here before.
Things have been really bad in,
in,
in this country and around the world before and,
and yet we have lost the ability to,
to just be able to sit with this agreement without judgment.
And,
and I think again,
back to what,
(31:12):
what does an um do,
that's our space.
We're not there.
Like you said,
we're not there to judge,
right?
We're there to listen and to,
to um give that person this moment and or moments where someone is actually listening to them without judging them.
And in our mind,
we know that there are multiple truths there.
And that took a while for me to evolve in my own personal growth that,
(31:36):
that you don't have to be uh you know,
on one side or the other.
There is this kind of interesting middle place that,
that we tend to live in that people don't get to experience a whole lot because I do think it's deep listening,
you know,
and,
and also people knowing may maybe intuitively our body language,
how we interact with them that we are truly interested in what they have to say.
(31:59):
And sometimes that's the first,
we're the first person that they're experiencing that with.
So,
yeah,
absolutely.
When you think about all the different kinds of experiences you've had in,
in the different jobs and in the military,
what has been?
Well,
so you talked about your,
your,
your professor,
your English professor is being really pivotal for you.
But when you think about a colleague,
(32:20):
like a boss,
um can you tell us about an experience that was really resonated with you and,
and what was good about their management style,
like specifically?
So if someone's listening,
they might think,
oh,
that something that I could emulate.
Well,
it's a bit of a paradox.
So when I first got into teaching,
uh a again,
(32:40):
it was a very small school and I was teaching English and it was run by,
uh the school was run by,
but we would consider to be a president or chancellor or something like that who had this reputation of being a bully and,
and he got things done.
So I was a little bit afraid of him and I didn't interact with him a whole lot.
(33:02):
Well,
he happened to pop into my class one day and just sat in the back and I was terrified.
I'm like,
why is this guy here?
So I tried to ignore him and he took an interest in me and invited me to coffee.
We had coffee and he asked me what I wanted to do with my career.
And I thought I was just gonna teach the rest of my life.
(33:23):
And he said,
Hector in his way,
in,
in his kind of blunt way.
He said,
you're wasting your talent,
you're wasting your talent.
And at the time,
I was a bit offended because,
you know,
I love teaching.
And he told me he basically saw something in me that I didn't see.
And that was,
that I had leadership ability.
(33:44):
I was content being in my classroom,
closing the door,
being with my students and doing my thing as a professor.
But he saw potential that,
that I just never really thought I had kind of back to being smart enough to go to school.
So he encouraged me to,
to think about administration and he pushed me to,
(34:05):
to a very high level in that organization.
I became a provost could be considered the same as a provost and I was,
I was the academic leader for this school and I never thought I would do that.
He was hard to work for,
he screamed and yelled and threw things sometimes.
And yet the what really what I take away from that whole experience is one how not to be that kind of boss,
(34:26):
but also that,
that he had this ability to see talent.
And,
and I,
I really look for that also when I see someone with very high potential and maybe they don't see it themselves.
Uh You know,
I feel like I have an ability to tell people and to,
to mentor people.
I I love to mentor young ombuds who are,
(34:48):
who are new in the profession or want to be in the profession.
So even though he wasn't the greatest boss,
he did see something in me that really changed the course of my life.
So I did prefer the classroom,
I have to say.
And yet he taught me how to be a leader and how to manage people.
I had at 1.50 people who reported to me in one way or another in the hierarchy.
(35:10):
And I ha I gained tons of conflict resolution skills,
just managing people talk about conflict,
right?
When you manage people,
you're gonna have conflict and I dealt with every problem you could think of in management.
So now when a manager comes to me and they're struggling with someone who's,
you know,
really hard to manage,
(35:30):
I can help them because I know what that feels like managing people is one of the hardest jobs in the world.
And,
and,
and I had that experience because they,
so it's a little bit kind of,
you know,
paradoxical and yet I,
I still remember him and,
and I would thank him today for how he,
you know,
helped me in my career.
It's a wonderful example.
I was thinking so very buzzy of you because we,
(35:54):
we are not one thing or another,
but you know,
we can learn and like legitimately learn and grow and also recognize that there are difficulties and things that ought not be going on.
But a lot of times when somebody is,
you know,
obviously,
if they are yelling or throwing or whatever they might be doing,
that is unacceptable behavior.
And yet we aren't one thing or the other.
(36:16):
It's,
it,
it's just a wonderful example of being able to learn and really embrace and really benefit because you didn't just write this person off as simply a jerk.
Um But you could kind of hold space for both and see how you could learn and grow and have these wonderful experiences.
Well,
and also,
(36:36):
you know,
what has helped me and that experience helped me is when someone comes to me and they're describing the situation that sounds similar.
Maybe they are being bullied.
I'm not taking,
I'm not condoning the bullying behavior when I say this.
But I,
I can understand maybe why this person is a bully.
So I found out over a few years of working with this person,
(36:58):
my my boss that um there were reasons why he would explode and he was under an incredible amount of pressure and,
and um he was on the verge of losing his job a few times and he,
we didn't know that.
Unfortunately,
he took it out on us.
So when someone comes and talks to me about,
you know,
a,
a boss who's just a jerk or,
or very abusive,
(37:19):
if I get a chance to talk to that leader.
I'm able to have that conversation with them and be their ombuds as well.
And often I hear man,
this person is under a lot of pressure or they didn't even realize they were being that way and,
and they make adjustments and sometimes they need to coach.
Right?
Or sometimes they just need a mirror and,
and a reminder that that's not how you treat people and I'm not condoning that behavior at all.
(37:43):
It's awful.
I've had abusive bosses.
It's no fun at all.
And yet I,
I as an ombud,
I know that I can help in that space regardless of,
of who the person is and at what level I'm talking.
So one of the things that I was a little intimidated about when I first became an,
but just speaking to leaders,
you know,
people that very high level and my experience with my former boss kind of prepared me for that to be able to sit in that space with power and not be intimidated,
(38:13):
not that I wasn't intimidated,
but at least I knew how to talk to them.
Yeah.
And I,
I do like thinking about bullies clearly,
there's bullying behavior,
there's illegal behavior.
But the narrative that we,
a lot of times people give to themselves about somebody else who is causing them problems at work is that person is a bully.
And if that person is a bully is an indictment of who they are as a personality instead of looking at particular kinds of behaviors.
(38:40):
And a lot of times in conflict,
we,
we spin this other person to be this cardboard cut out.
They're not a real person.
And in so far as we can humanize and get clear about these specific behaviors,
a lot of times as you said,
the,
the quote unquote bully doesn't know they're doing this or they think they're being effective or as you said,
they're getting things done and,
(39:01):
and there's all the stuff in their past that some coaching or awareness can help them be a good colleague.
And you know,
the sort of communication that can take place when we stop labeling people and see them as people,
we know we villainize them and we become the victim and they,
(39:22):
and then we other that person,
right?
And then,
and then we have no compassion at all for,
for them.
And I see that happen a lot where e exactly like you're saying,
we,
we paint this picture and narrative in our minds of uh how flawed someone's character is because of their behavior and,
and then it becomes about their personhood instead of their behavior,
(39:46):
right?
So yeah,
the behavior is bad and we need to address that,
but I don't think we should cancel people uh because of their bad behavior.
And I,
I know we live a little bit,
we've gone through some cancel culture and,
and there's still still that happening and yet I,
I think it's unfortunate when,
when we just write someone off and just say,
(40:07):
yeah,
they're a jerk.
That person is a jerk.
They're,
they're beyond help.
Um To me,
I think that's part of why we're struggling with difference in the world is we go,
we,
you know,
the royal,
we go from A to Z without thinking about what's happening in the middle with this person and we,
(40:27):
we just decide that that's the way it is and there's no way to change it and,
and often there are paths,
conflict resolution as you know,
is there sometimes situations seem pretty bleak and then it works out because we sit down right and we just start being human and talking to each other and actually listening and then things seem to be uh less,
(40:49):
less,
um,
less pressurized and that narrative changes in our minds.
Absolutely.
When you think about the different people that you've worked with and the different places you've been,
can you tell us about a conflict you had with a colleague and,
and how you dealt with it?
So,
me personally,
yeah.
Uh Well,
I think this will inform our conversation about abusive behavior when I work.
(41:14):
Well,
we just say I worked at a spot and,
um,
and I had a supervisor who was very demanding and it was a pretty large unit and this person had themselves worked their way up through the ranks,
worked really hard to be where they got,
got to pretty high level and,
and yet,
and had very high standards.
(41:34):
So this is not,
not my,
my first example,
this is a different person.
Uh And uh when I first got to the unit,
I,
I noticed that this person was pretty direct,
had a very direct communication style.
Uh And didn't the way people phrased it,
she doesn't suffer fools.
And I wasn't even quite sure what that meant,
but I,
(41:54):
I learned quickly and that in itself was problematic.
So I started to notice that uh that the way this person managed other people was very hurtful and harmful and,
and it was verbal,
it was all verbal and it got to that level of abuse where they would make people cry in a,
(42:14):
in a,
in,
in our staff meetings.
And while I wasn't on the other end of that receiving that I was witnessing it and I knew I had to do something about it.
So I wasn't an ombuds.
But then again,
conflict,
right?
If,
if you're in the workplace,
you're gonna,
you're gonna experience conflict.
So I had to make a decision of how to handle that as a bystander.
(42:39):
And it wasn't my conflict,
but I was seeing that a lot of harm was done,
being done and the way I decided to handle it was to go talk to them.
And this person was my boss in a,
in a one on one.
I,
I did my best with limited skills to let them know that what was I what I was experiencing just felt wrong and,
(42:59):
and I was trying to help that person.
So what ended up happening is instead of it helping it,
it made things worse for me because I then became the object of this person's ire.
And I started being the person receiving that kind of very negative behavior.
And it,
it,
(43:19):
it was,
it was a toxic workplace environment,
everybody was afraid of this person.
Uh Nobody spoke up,
there was just a lot of fear around uh you know,
being vocal about anything.
So I ended up,
I ended up going to hr and,
and shared my experience with,
with an hr representative and eventually this person was let go and it's a bit of a dark story and yet I think it also informs my work as a,
(43:49):
as an ombuds and as a person and that there are times where you just have to take the risk of,
of speaking up and advocating not only for yourself,
but for others,
it's a little and it's a little bit contradictory to what we do as ombuds because we're taught that we don't advocate for people.
And I think that's true,
but I do think we advocate Mary as ombuds,
(44:10):
we advocate in,
in a,
in our way,
maybe not for a specific person,
but,
you know,
I was advocating for the people in,
in that unit that were being,
you know,
treated very poorly.
Uh And then ended up advocating for myself.
Of course,
I was in ombuds at the time.
But I think about that experience a lot because I have a lot of compassion for people who,
(44:30):
who say they're being abused by a supervisor as,
you know,
mental abuse and verbal abuse is just as painful to the brain and to the body as physical abuse.
So,
so I,
I think about that experience a lot,
taught me a lot and also tell me about,
you know,
how to be a better leader myself.
Thank you for sharing that experience.
(44:52):
I think a lot of people do find themselves as witness too.
And the question is,
you know,
and a lot of times we're told that's none of your concern.
It doesn't deal,
it doesn't concern you.
So don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
And there's,
there's this,
this dual message I think in our culture,
(45:12):
if you see something,
say something,
you know,
if you say nothing and you see it,
you are complicit in that and at the same time,
it's mind your own business and privacy.
And so,
you know,
we're caught.
Well,
if I say something,
am I being nosy?
If I don't say something,
am I complicit in this negative toxic behavior?
(45:32):
And it is very confusing as to what to do?
And then of course,
there's the cost if I speak up what will happen.
But I think what you,
I think through your example shows is that in all kind of conflicts,
whether it's personally happening to us or we're witnessing it when we decide to do something and we are putting ourselves in an empowered position when we say this is not OK.
(45:55):
And so we start to prepare and think about what are our next steps instead of conflict has this disempowering effect.
Somebody else has the power and we're left confused wondering,
we don't know what to do.
But when we decide to act,
we are,
we are empowered again to say I need something different.
I'm willing to put myself out here and the consequences,
(46:19):
of course,
you can be as you were targeted,
you could be let go.
The other person might be let go.
We don't know the future,
but all we can do is act in our own good conscience and realize that we don't have to give our power away to somebody else that we can act for our good and the good of others.
You know,
a big part of that that I try to mitigate with people is the the risk of saying something.
(46:45):
So when they're talking to us as ombuds in that confidential space,
the risk is,
is lower,
right?
There's no consequence,
negative consequence for them being honest or open if they trust you,
right?
Like they're real.
But if they actually say something I did,
there is a risk and sometimes we don't know what the risk is and I wish I would have come up with this.
(47:07):
But I,
I read it somewhere that,
that if the risk is too high for a person to perceive a real risk,
they're just not gonna say anything at some point,
the need outweighs the risk and it doesn't matter what the,
what the risk because you just have to say something.
And I think I got to that point where I had,
I had to say something,
even if I,
even if there was retaliation because I just couldn't live with myself anymore in that situation.
(47:32):
And I see that in my visitors a lot where they're,
they're just struggling with the,
but they're gonna pay if they say anything at all because often,
often it comes down to,
have you talked to that person yet?
No,
they're afraid because the risk is too high,
right?
Or there's a lot of power imbalance.
And so people just won't do it and yet they suffer through,
through whatever it is they're experiencing and,
(47:54):
and a lot of times they leave,
uh,
and,
or their performance suffers and,
and,
you know,
they,
they get managed out unfortunately,
instead of speaking up,
right?
And just saying what they need to say and then giving as buts giving people the skills to say it in a way that's effective.
Right?
Because there's also a way to speak truth to power.
(48:14):
Um,
that in a way that works or,
or is way more successful than just,
you know,
blurting it out there.
So,
and I think that is very helpful when you have somebody like an ombud,
somebody in that kind of space where they can help you see.
Ok.
Well,
there is this sort of pain you're already experiencing.
(48:34):
And so a lot of times people will just stay with the pain they know because the unknown can be scary and yet to try to help someone to see.
Ok,
well,
this is what you're experiencing right now.
And a lot of times we discount that because we already have that stabbing pain and we know what that is like,
but to really try to articulate what is this costing you now?
(48:55):
Right.
Right.
And,
and through,
through assistance of someone like an ombuds for that training is to build that conflict competence and to start building that.
And maybe the first conversation you have is not with your boss,
but you maybe work it with your spouse or work it with somebody else.
And so you can develop that and maybe you're more willing to have those,
those more difficult conversations.
(49:17):
Well,
you know,
many years ago,
I did a presentation and it was called Speaking Truth To Power.
And a couple of the participants challenged me a bit and,
and I think about that a lot and their challenge to me was we have to be careful with our visitors not to put them in a situation that's harmful for them,
which I 100% agree.
So there are times that it's the avoidance is the right thing,
(49:40):
at least for a period of time.
And,
you know,
and I acknowledge that I also say that to my visitors,
sometimes,
you know,
sometimes just not doing anything is the right thing to do right now.
Um And yet it depends on their capacity to live in that space,
right?
And so uh speaking,
truth to power is can be fraught.
(50:03):
And yet I,
I do also believe that when people have conflict,
competence and the skills,
the tools to have those conversations that that there is a path to resolution and it's not all bleak um which is often where our visitors are,
right?
They just don't see a way out.
So I do acknowledge,
I wanna acknowledge that but there are times that yeah,
(50:23):
I can saying something to someone with a lot of power um may be harmful.
So that's possible.
Retaliation is real,
right?
And um it can happen in,
in not so not so subtle ways and subtle ways.
And unfortunately,
it still happens,
you know,
it still happens in the workplace.
Yeah.
(50:44):
And yet I think when somebody goes to see an ombud,
that's already a start of a turn,
right?
Or at least the possibility because it takes courage or when anybody shows up to mediation.
I think I'm in awe of their courage because they are willing to sit in the same room with their quote unquote work nemesis,
this person that has caused them,
this,
all this pain and they're there of their own free will.
(51:08):
Right.
And to me that is already such a win.
I wish they could see it.
I try to encourage them and,
and tell them what I see.
But,
right.
So that's another lovely thing about going to an ombuds is that the,
the you're not going to leave there with.
All right,
this is what you're going to do next.
And now you,
now you gonna have to go confront that person.
(51:29):
No,
it's up to them.
They can decide what it is they want to do and it may sometimes you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them,
right?
Sometimes you know,
you do say something and sometimes you just got to know when to speak and that's an art and the more we develop those and the more we think about what to say,
(51:49):
how to say it when to say it.
What are those hills that,
what are the non negotiables for us?
That all of this is self knowledge,
right?
And we start from that and then we can move forward.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And we haven't even talked about mediation a lot.
That's another powerful aspect of,
of what I but to do and what mediators do is providing a space for people to come together and,
(52:14):
and and to uh hopefully be safe enough or feel safe enough to,
to be honest about,
to be candid about what,
what they're experiencing.
Um,
I don't do a lot of mediation.
I do mediate,
but I am often in awe as you said,
of people's courage and also how powerful it is to hear for both parties to hear their story.
(52:36):
It's like all of a sudden there's sometimes it doesn't work,
but when it does work,
there are aha moments and I've heard people say,
wow,
I didn't know that and I didn't realize that was what was happening with you and,
and that's very rewarding as well.
Yeah.
Making space for that third way.
How do you actually have dialogue with this person who you think is unreasonable all of a sudden when you hear somebody else's story and you feel like you've been heard the dialect that can take place.
(53:06):
There can be this,
this new possibility where there was a possibility because the bleakness,
the despair that people really feel and um going to creep up into a work environment is,
is so heartbreaking and causes all this these ramifications.
But there is hope and there are paths and there is a new day tomorrow.
(53:31):
But whatever that may be,
whatever that holds,
whether that's leaving an environment or trying to mend at the place that you are,
there are a lot of possibilities.
So Hector I'd like to end with this question when you think about the world of work.
What do you think needs to happen?
So that not only is everyone from part time worker to the CEO treated with dignity and respect,
(53:56):
but encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Yeah,
that's,
that's such a big,
big question.
And I think it,
it's hard to answer simply but I think because of the frame that,
you know,
I look at the world or the perspective,
the lens as an ombuds is,
(54:16):
I think what we're needing more now than ever are opportunities for people who have differences to be able to come together and,
and to,
and to provide some space in our communities where,
you know,
people can sit down and actually have a conversation about what's happening with them.
(54:38):
II,
I don't see those kinds of spaces a lot.
I mean,
obviously as an ombuds and the mediators that,
that,
that those are the spaces we provide.
But I think it's,
it needs to go beyond our,
our professions and be a part of what an organization's culture is.
Just seems like when I work with,
I also work with nonprofits and usually when I'm involved,
(55:01):
there's some kind of uh toxic environment in some way or another that hasn't been addressed.
And,
and maybe it's making,
you know,
your onboarding part of your on boarding experience is taking a conflict resolution course or something on communication that helps people deal with different.
I think that's where I see the biggest need is,
(55:23):
is when you sit down and talk with someone that they're just not open to the possibility that there are other perspectives.
So,
and,
and I don't think it's an age thing.
You know,
I used to think maybe this is generational,
this is across all generations where you just turn on the news.
Right.
And you can see that there are,
uh,
there is an incredible amount of polarization in the world and,
(55:43):
and it just seems to be at a peak again in our history.
Yeah,
I agree.
Opportunities to listen,
opportunities to practice civility.
Um It's easy to be civil with people who are like minded,
right?
But to actually develop those,
then we need to have those opportunities.
Hector,
thank you so much for your time.
(56:04):
It's been so delightful chatting with you today.
I went by really quickly.
It did,
it did.
Thank you,
Hector so much for our conversation.
That hour just flew by and I think of all the different sorts of things I wanted to ask you and I'm just very grateful for the conversation that we had and for the work that you have been doing all throughout your career,
to help people have healthy work and to empower individuals to make their own choices for their own good and the good of others.
(56:31):
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (56:41):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and starts a conversation about what to do instead in order to have healthy work environments come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot and remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
(57:03):
Take care.
So.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps.
Now,
get a sound side uptight.
Jack asking questions.
(00:26):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Doctor Hector Escalante who is the director of the Office of the Ombuds,
the University of California Merced. Hector immigrated from Baja California,
Mexico to America with his parents and sister.
When he was two years old.
He grew up in Oxnard,
California and then moved to Central California when he was 15.
(00:48):
After graduating from high school,
Hector enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and served six years in the Reserves as a radio operator.
Hector began a career in the cable TV industry and decided to go to college in his early thirties.
He enjoyed higher education so much that he went on to earn a master's of fine arts and master of education and a doctorate in education.
Upon completing his academic pursuits,
(01:10):
Hector served as faculty,
dean of students and a Director of Academic Affairs.
He was the inaugural Ombuds for the University of the Pacific and continues to offer OMBUD services to small nonprofit organizations.
He specializes in conflict resolution,
healthy communication and learning and development that promotes inclusion,
healthy communication and conflict resolution.
(01:32):
Hector's passions include treating all with fairness,
equity,
dignity and compassion.
He loves eating good food,
the outdoors and spending time with his friends and family.
Good morning Hector and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Good morning Mary.
How are you today?
I'm doing just great.
Looks like a nice sunshiny day where you can be the most of the time here in the changes all the time.
(02:00):
So you never know what you're going to get.
So,
I suppose if you like being surprised Tennessee weather is for you.
Well,
so Hector,
I would like to begin with how I usually start this podcast by finding out what is the first job you ever had as a young person?
Well,
um,
that's a great question and,
and I,
I kind of go back and forth on what I considered a first job.
(02:21):
So the first job where I made money,
I was a paper boy in Oxnard,
California and I was a young lad.
I was probably pen and,
um,
it's the first time I had to handle money and I remember,
you know,
getting up super early in the morning having to roll all those papers up and then delivering them and,
(02:45):
and then every month collecting money.
And that was when I first felt like I had to be responsible because I had cash in my hands and I,
you know,
was responsible for that money.
So I consider that,
that a job.
I,
I would say my first really full time job.
I was a courtesy clerk at a grocery store in a really small town,
uh,
called Lockford California.
(03:06):
And I bagged groceries and this is,
you know,
1617 by then.
And it seems really young to have that kind of job.
Do you remember at all how that came about?
I had a buddy,
a friend who was a little bit older than I was and he always had money.
He always had money for food and cut candy.
And,
you know,
and,
(03:26):
uh,
and I thought,
well,
you know,
how,
how do you do that?
How do you get money?
I,
I didn't grow up in a household where I received allowance that just wasn't part of our,
you know,
experience.
And,
um,
and when I asked my buddy about it,
he's like,
well,
it's pretty simple.
You just go,
you know,
apply for a,
uh,
paper boy job.
We called it back then.
(03:47):
I don't know what they are called now.
Um,
and,
uh,
I,
I got the job and so it,
it was kind of a long shot but I,
I think I've,
you know,
I always had the mentality of being a hard worker and I probably get that from my dad.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
I,
it was for the money Mary,
I wanted,
(04:09):
you want to get that candy.
So,
what do you think about being at the grocery store?
What was the environment like there?
What was the management like that?
That's a really great question.
Takes me back quite a few years.
So the grocery store was a small grocery store and Lockford is just a tiny little community as you drive up into the Sierras,
(04:30):
into the.
It's so it's somewhat in the foothills of California and uh uh a lot of uh vacationers would stop there to get ice and soda and beer and stuff like that.
And so it was a pretty busy grocery stores,
mom and pop type of store owned by a family and the father who started it was somewhat retired.
(04:50):
So it was run by three brothers and um they were fairly young to be running a business.
So it was pretty foot loose and fancy free.
Um They,
they didn't provide us a lot of management uh or guidance.
They basically,
you know,
we put a uh an apron on and said go go pack groceries.
(05:10):
And I think um one of the brothers showed me how,
how to,
you know,
pack a bag and not smash the eggs.
And um but otherwise it was a lot of autonomy.
It was a lot of autonomy and then being young and having um some young colleagues at the time,
we would do crazy stuff in the warehouse,
you know,
throw cans across the room and,
(05:31):
you know,
just do silly things that that young people do.
So I think my biggest memory uh about that job was that I was making pretty good money as a young person.
And uh I was learning about interacting with people and being up front,
you know,
people are pretty picky about their food and if you mess it up,
you find out.
(05:52):
So I found out that I had this kind of like,
I don't know if you want to call it a talent or a skill,
but I was pretty good communicator.
And I,
I remember one particular employee there who,
who was uh uh Rang,
rang people in.
She,
she said one time to me,
Hector,
you can talk out of a paperback and I wasn't sure what that meant at the time.
(06:14):
And later I realized what she meant was that I was pretty good at talking with people.
And I think that kind of led my,
you know,
my trajectory in my career somewhat and it's probably why I do what I do now.
So,
yeah,
you know,
those,
those first jobs can teach us so much about the world about ourselves.
(06:34):
Right?
And so we're around other young people and a lot of times it's,
it's their first jobs and personalities come out and things that we didn't even know was a particular skill or a gift because it's just who we are,
right?
We grew up in a particular family in this smaller little community and then we go out,
you know,
we have school friends or we're exposed to people at school,
(06:56):
but there's something about the world of work,
we kind of pulls out parts of our personality.
And so for her to recognize that in you and for that to really resonate with you that you remember it all these years later.
Right?
Yeah,
clearly you are a people person and enjoy interacting with individuals,
having a career in peacemaking and conflict management and ombud.
(07:18):
So when you went on to college,
what did you major in?
So I majored in English and I,
I was a late bloomer when it comes to college.
What's really interesting about that first full time job is I met a person that became my best friend and he talked me into joining the Marine Corps.
So I went from being this young kid,
(07:40):
you know,
working in a grocery store turned 18 and jumped right into the military.
So before I went to college,
I spent some time in the Marine Corps Marine Corps Reserve.
And um that was also pretty influential in my,
in my career.
And when I came back,
I was well in the military,
(08:01):
I was the first an infantryman and then I was a radio man.
So I had somewhat of a background in electronics in my very first like real real job was with the cable company.
So I worked in the cable company in my twenties,
late twenties into my thirties before I even went to college.
So to answer your question in my thirties ish.
(08:22):
I decided to go get an,
a,
a in electronics of all things because I was working in a cable company and I found that I really liked school and I went actually to get the,
a,
a ended up taking an English class as part of the requirement and I loved.
Right.
I,
I realized that I had this other ability that I never knew I had is I like to write and I could write fairly well and I switched from electronics to English and then that kind of evolved into this idea of,
(08:54):
well,
maybe I should like become a high school teacher.
I don't know if you remember the,
the old movie stand and delivered with Jaime Escalante,
you know,
we share the same last name,
all that we're not related.
And uh I thought maybe I could be the next Escalante,
you know,
and teach high school English and change kids lives.
Um So I,
I ended up uh graduated with a Bachelor's degree in majoring in English and also on a track to get my teaching credential.
(09:22):
And in California they're pretty strict about how you become a teacher.
Anyway.
I,
I did end up getting a job as a high school teacher.
I got my degree and I thought I'm quitting cable,
going back,
going into the classroom and I lasted about a year in high school.
The kids ate me up and spit me out.
And I,
I didn't realize what I was getting myself into and it just wasn't for me.
(09:46):
So I ended up going back to the cable industry for a few years and then decided to get a master's degree and that turned into pursuing a doctorate.
And I just found that I really loved higher education.
So I went back into education,
higher education and started teaching at the college level.
Once I got my master's degree,
I could teach at the college level.
(10:07):
And that's kind of where I settled into higher education.
So your 18 year old self,
would you have thought that you to me?
Did you always have a love for education or did that surprise you?
No.
You know,
in my household,
I,
I'm a Mexican immigrant.
My dad was an immigrant.
My mom,
both my mom and dad were born in Mexico.
(10:30):
Met in Mexico.
I was born in Mexico and we came to America and I was really young like three.
And it,
it pretty much I was raised in,
in that Hispanic kind of old traditional Hispanic Mexican household where,
you know,
the dad was the iron,
you know,
(10:50):
iron thumb and,
and yet everything really was led by the matriarchy by my mom and her sisters.
And my dad would always tell me he was a grocer.
He,
he ended up starting a grocery store.
He would always tell me Hector don't go to college,
they don't treat brown people well,
in this system,
get a job with a pension.
That was his idea of success.
(11:11):
And he told me one time it doesn't matter if you're a trash collector,
go work for the city,
get a pension,
you'll be set for life and get a stable income.
So,
that was his idea of success.
My mom,
on the other hand,
I don't know how,
but she,
she encouraged,
she knew intuitively that college was probably a better route than being a trash collector,
(11:32):
not nothing against trash trash collectors.
Um And so she would encourage me as a young person.
So she was super disappointed when I didn't go to college.
She,
she actually cried and lamented many times and my mom is,
you know,
she's a very passive aggressive person and she constantly would bring that up in one way or another.
So,
(11:52):
um I never would have thought to go to college.
I,
I,
my idea of success was to have a stable job and it wasn't,
it was because of a very influential teacher in my,
a,
a program,
uh an English teacher.
I'll never forget her,
Doctor Webber who uh I wrote an essay about one of my experiences in,
(12:13):
in Panama as a marine.
I agree.
And she gave me back my essay with a split grade.
It was an F at the top and an A at the bottom and I was confused.
So,
is it an F or is it an A?
So I went up to her,
you know,
very,
very politely and humbly because I'm a pretty quiet person.
And,
and I just asked her,
(12:33):
I said,
Doctor Weber,
I don't understand,
I don't understand the grade.
And she said Hector,
this paper is publishable.
You're a really good writer,
but your grammar sucks.
So you got an F for grammar but an A for content.
And then it was because of her encouragement throughout that,
just one English one a that uh I,
(12:54):
that she encouraged me to go on to get my bachelor's degree.
Otherwise I,
I would have just settled with my A a and the last thing I'll say about my education is I have the,
this is not your bris to subscribe.
I have actually five degrees and the,
the degree I'm most proud of is my,
a,
a degree.
So I have a doctorate,
a master of fine arts,
(13:15):
a Bachelor degree.
Uh Another master of fine arts in another in creative non fiction writing.
And um and my a is the degree I'm most proud of.
That is so interesting.
And is it because of that experience with her or,
or why is that the most valuable to you?
Well,
it was in that two year program that I realized that I could,
(13:36):
I was smart enough to go to school and that,
that's related to your question.
I didn't think I was smart enough to be a college person.
I didn't grow up with that kind of encouragement and I didn't think I could afford it.
So that,
that degree opened up the doors for me and the influence of not only the one teacher but others that I realized that I could do pretty well.
(13:59):
I ended up graduating at the top of my class in all my program.
So it's like I,
I didn't realize I was smart,
I'm a smart person and I didn't,
I didn't think I was,
I struggled in high school.
Uh So when I was married,
when I was 5.5 years old,
and I went to kindergarten,
my teacher told my parents that I was mentally retarded and it was because I couldn't understand what they were saying.
(14:25):
I didn't speak English.
So,
and this is in the sixties,
right?
So they still use that word,
which we don't use anymore.
But so I think that might have had an influence on how and my own perception and my own,
you know,
uh sense of uh ability.
It's so interesting what we pick up about ourselves from our surroundings.
(14:47):
What people say,
what they don't say.
I was just an average high school student,
you know,
CC plus maybe.
And I was undiagnosed dyslexic and I just thought school really is for me.
I'm o I'm OK.
I mean,
I like who I was but I just didn't think I was,
I didn't excel like my sister and I thought I'll go into college because that was a expectation.
(15:11):
But I never thought I would excel.
And my first semester in college in order to keep the scholarship that I had gotten,
somehow I had to do well.
And I got all A's and I,
and I found philosophy.
So I taught philosophy for over 20 years and it was that experience.
I just had no idea.
It was a thing.
(15:32):
it resonated with who I am.
And it's so interesting how,
what changes,
what pivots our life such as your friend at the grocery grocery store saying,
hey,
let's go to the marines and then you have all of these amazing experiences and I'm sure that was a transformational experience as well.
And all of these experiences that we collect and what door we choose to go down sometimes seems like it's chance fate,
(16:03):
but it's these,
these new opportunities that we,
we find and we find new ways to think about ourselves in our own gifts.
Right?
Yeah.
And it's a continual journey.
It's a,
it's like a,
you know,
a growth journey where you learn different things about yourself.
And,
and it,
it took me a while,
you know,
I I'm somewhat of a late bloomer,
I would say,
(16:23):
uh even to get to where I am now in conflict resolution,
it's not where I initially intended to be,
but somehow,
you know,
I'm here and I think that's a combination of,
of hard work and,
and also good timing,
you know,
and,
and I also,
I'm a spiritual person,
I think,
you know,
sometimes the universe or God or whatever,
(16:45):
however you want to frame that has a plan and,
and,
you know,
and it all comes together somehow.
So tell us about your work.
So you are at University Ombuds.
How did you get into that line of work?
And first I've had other om buds on the show,
but I always like somebody to explain what it is because many people are unfamiliar with organizational ombuds.
(17:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Giving you just a real without going too deep into the topic.
It's a very interesting role.
Originally,
ombudsman is the,
you know,
the kind of more original term and has evolved in um but it's more neutral uh gender neutral term.
Um It's been around in,
in California or in the United States,
I would say since maybe the early sixties because of some of the civil rights and,
(17:30):
and the,
the conflict that was occurring on universities.
But originally this started way back.
There's even some evidence that that the Celtic people,
the Vikings had an ombudsman which was kind of the,
the representative for people.
It has evolved into what we now call an organizational ombuds.
There are different types of ombuds and we are conflict resolution people.
(17:53):
So most ombuds have follow some kind of standard.
Uh And I follow the International Ombuds Association standards of confidentiality which is probably one of the most powerful aspects of ombudsmen and Buz.
And uh with the exception of eminent risk,
serious harm to self for others were confidential.
So that creates a very unique space,
(18:14):
right?
For people to come talk about what's going on at work.
Most most ombuds are uh neutral,
third parties.
Although I have something to say in an opinion about being neutral and impartial,
we're also usually independent,
which is um some type of paradox.
If you work internally in an organization,
I like to say we're autonomous,
but we are try to function at least in perception um independently and we're informal.
(18:40):
Um So most people are familiar with hr and,
and internal audit and general councils and,
and formal entities that deal with workplace matters.
The ombuds again,
something very unique about us is that we're informal.
So we don't get involved in,
in formal types of processes.
And,
and III I think of us as having a dual mandate.
(19:04):
One is to help people work through workplace conflict it at all levels regardless of what the conflict is and also as a change agent for the organization.
So I in if we're ombuds scene,
well,
we're impacting the climate,
the morale uh retention.
Um Also,
you know,
in higher ed,
(19:24):
there's not only retention but recruitment is important,
just attracting people.
So the ombuds can have that kind of influence in our art and I could go on and on about that Mary.
Uh,
but that's,
that's,
um,
that's kind of an overview of how I see ombuds anyway.
And so how did you find yourself in an ombuds role?
(19:46):
Well,
I think it was fortuitous and also maybe just meant to be.
So,
I,
I've been ombudsman about 10 years.
So I,
it took me a while to,
to get there,
you know,
we were talking about my career track.
It took a long time for me to actually get into an ombuds role.
So I was,
I was a professor for a while.
(20:06):
I taught English and writing and in classes around communication.
And uh um there's a whole part of my life,
I'll leave out because it'll take up too much time.
But I worked for this small nonprofit school called Heald College that ended up closing.
They got caught up in,
they went from nonprofit to profit,
but got bought up by Corinthian,
(20:27):
a huge company that uh owned all kinds of other schools that were more career type schools and,
and uh ended up shutting down because of what happened with financial aid,
the big financial aid fiasco.
And so I moved from working as a teacher into a space of learning and development.
So I got a job,
(20:48):
one of my master's degrees is in curriculum development.
So I got a job in the university as a learning development program manager.
And my job was to design,
develop,
implement and assess curriculum for faculty and staff in a variety of areas.
And one of the big ones that kept coming up for me was conflict resolution and communication and,
(21:11):
you know,
having difficult conversations and giving feedback.
So I would get a request for,
hey,
Hector,
can you create a one day training for my staff?
And we,
we want to improve our communication skills.
So that kind of led me down this path of really digging into what is conflict resolution.
And I,
I don't come from ad r alternative dispute resolution.
I'm an educator,
(21:32):
I'm a curricular list.
You know,
my job was to create curriculum and I found that area fascinating because it had to do with people,
right?
And how we get along in the workplace.
And I became known as the guy you call when there was conflict in your unit.
And I would come into trainings along with a team of,
of professionals that were,
(21:53):
that were part of the team and maybe two years into that job,
a position opened up and at the time,
it was called an ombudsman and it was a part time job.
So I need a full time job.
So I didn't even look at it.
They,
it was a failed search.
Long story short.
They brought it back as a full time position and and tragically,
there had been a rape on campus maybe a few years ago and that's what caused this,
(22:17):
this need,
you know,
and people,
faculty and staff joined forces and basically demanded an ombuds to be hired.
And that's when a colleague of mine who knew what I did and knew my work came to me and said,
Hector,
you need to apply for this job.
And I didn't even know what it was.
I'd heard the term in the military,
but I never used an ombuds.
So when I looked at the job description,
(22:39):
I thought I could do this.
I,
I've been working in conflict already because I've been training people around this content.
And I had zero experience as an ombuds,
no background in my education.
And I could not point to one place where it would say Hector is a conflict resolution expert.
Anyway,
long story short there,
(22:59):
I applied and competed with other people who had experience and I was offered the job with the con contingency of becoming certified in a year and also piloting the program.
So I developed the program.
So as I was the inaugural Ombuds there and I think I got the job.
(23:20):
Well,
I know now because I had taught there,
I knew staff very well and it happened to be my alma mater.
So I received one of my master's degrees there.
So I had AAA perspective that a lot of people didn't have.
I was,
I knew what it meant to be a faculty staff and a student.
So I think that's why they got the they offered me the job.
(23:41):
Long story there.
Sorry.
I think it's interesting when I talk to people in this space that very rarely,
maybe one time have I talked to somebody?
Uh,
it was Claire Flower and she,
she's a vice president for media.com and she found mediation when she was,
I think in third grade she had some sort of conflict class and from there she just sort of knew that's what she wanted to do.
(24:03):
But almost everybody that I talked to who does some sort of ad r professionally comes about it around in a round about outweigh and it's,
it's their skills,
their experiences and think about transferable skills.
Um A lot of,
of course,
you know,
being an ombud is being able to listen and empower others and,
(24:24):
you know,
as,
as somebody who knows how to research,
you know,
finding and correlating those different options for people,
but being for others that is,
I think something that comes out in people's work and you can kind of chart what they have done and see how this would be,
this really people intense job would be good for them or that they would be fit for it.
(24:48):
And so when I was thinking about talking to you today,
I have a question for you.
So you've been in this business for a while and when you talk with people,
a lot of times there's a lot of pain,
right?
There's a lot of pain associated with,
with workplace conflict and all the different sorts of things that go on.
How do you as a professional deal with hearing constantly,
(25:10):
the pain that people are in?
Yeah,
that's a real,
really great question.
I,
I have been hearing from other ombuds that they're finding it more and more difficult to stay in a,
in an impartial or neutral space because of the pain and trauma that,
that they're hearing and also because of the state of our,
(25:31):
the state of our world,
you know,
and,
and how polarized things are and it's making it really difficult I think to,
to stay healthy and,
and,
and at the same time to help people.
And my,
my theory,
my hypothesis,
maybe this would be a good research topic is that one of the things that is so rewarding about being in ombuds is that you get to hear a very unfiltered stories,
(26:00):
true stories of how people are experiencing the world and experiencing trauma and pain.
And many times you're the first person that they actually will share without holding anything back to me,
that's a,
that's just takes an incredible amount of trust for someone to open up like that and tell you about their pain and,
(26:21):
and then to find a way to help them.
So,
so being,
I think being neutral is just really literally impossible as a person.
So the what's helped me kind of reconcile where,
where I land when I really hear a painful story is that I,
I am in that moment,
being partial with the person I am,
you know,
aligned and empathetic with how they're feeling.
(26:45):
And also I also know it's,
it's not my personal burden to carry,
right?
Even though I can be in that moment ve very compassionate and empathetic,
my goal is to help that person.
So the more I can help someone in pain,
the more it actually rejuvenates me.
So instead of dialing it down,
(27:05):
I think we need to dial it up and be,
be willing to jump into the fray when,
when there are,
you know,
really horrible things happening and,
or when people are in conflict and,
and there are two sides,
three sides.
Our job is to remain in that,
in that liminal space,
that middle uh which to me is,
is a very unique space.
(27:27):
I uh I was listening to a news uh uh morning news,
um you know,
talking heads and one of the persons was a,
a very famous journalist who had interviewed many,
many presidents and she said something that really struck my attention.
She said that the being neutral or how did she say the hottest um parts of hell are reserved for those who remain neutral.
(27:52):
And I was like,
whoa,
you know,
that's how,
I mean,
that's kind of where we are right now,
right?
And yet that's our job is to be,
to be in the middle.
And to me that's a unique space and a place where we can offer a unique contribution to help where not a lot of people can live in that space,
right?
So,
yeah,
(28:12):
I love what you said in this sort of idea of uh leaning in to a person's story.
One thing that people want is they want a kind of validation,
they want to,
they want to be heard.
And a lot of times when people are talking,
the other person is listening to judge,
you know,
like,
is this true?
Is this not true?
Is this?
How valid is this?
How important is this?
(28:32):
And,
and when I talk with people through mediation or whatever it is that I'm doing,
I believe them,
this is,
I believe what they are saying because this is what is true for them.
And then when I talk to the other person,
maybe in a conflict that they give me the polar opposite that happens,
I believe them too.
And I can be present.
(28:53):
I can hold both of those things at the same time because ultimately,
as you said,
it's not my burden.
I am not the arbitrator,
I'm not saying who's right and wrong.
I,
you know,
in,
in the sense of sort of you're right,
you're wrong about this,
that I could be present with both of them at that time and lend them that deep listening and the and presence so that so that they can have space to work it out,
(29:17):
right?
If we never offer that to people then how are they even going to understand themselves?
How are they going to make this progress with the other or with the organization or whatever it is that's going on?
And I think for my years of teaching philosophy and you,
you know,
you just hear all these interesting positions and I think,
(29:37):
oh,
that sounds problematic to me or what not.
And always realizing it is not my job to mold them in my image.
It is my job to help them grow and develop into whoever they are going to be and they're not finished at 18.
And I'm glad they articulated this position and they are people on the way just as I am developing.
And if we don't give grace or space for people to be heard and to express themselves and if they have views that we don't like,
(30:07):
first of all,
people don't have to believe everything that we believe.
But how,
how are we going to make progress?
I think we have stunted ourselves in this culture by,
by just not allowing people like we have to be finished and we have to be on this side or that side.
And I just don't see how that really helps us to move forward as individuals or people.
(30:29):
I think we're,
we've lost that space.
We and we continue to lose that ability to,
to be multi partial.
You know,
that's a term that ombuds have thrown around and I started using the term uh being equi partial.
So I think we're losing that ability to sit in a room with difference and it doesn't help with what's going on in the world,
(30:52):
obviously.
And this is nothing new.
If you look at the cycle of history,
we've been here before.
Things have been really bad in,
in,
in this country and around the world before and,
and yet we have lost the ability to,
to just be able to sit with this agreement without judgment.
And,
and I think again,
back to what,
(31:12):
what does an um do,
that's our space.
We're not there.
Like you said,
we're not there to judge,
right?
We're there to listen and to,
to um give that person this moment and or moments where someone is actually listening to them without judging them.
And in our mind,
we know that there are multiple truths there.
And that took a while for me to evolve in my own personal growth that,
(31:36):
that you don't have to be uh you know,
on one side or the other.
There is this kind of interesting middle place that,
that we tend to live in that people don't get to experience a whole lot because I do think it's deep listening,
you know,
and,
and also people knowing may maybe intuitively our body language,
how we interact with them that we are truly interested in what they have to say.
(31:59):
And sometimes that's the first,
we're the first person that they're experiencing that with.
So,
yeah,
absolutely.
When you think about all the different kinds of experiences you've had in,
in the different jobs and in the military,
what has been?
Well,
so you talked about your,
your,
your professor,
your English professor is being really pivotal for you.
But when you think about a colleague,
(32:20):
like a boss,
um can you tell us about an experience that was really resonated with you and,
and what was good about their management style,
like specifically?
So if someone's listening,
they might think,
oh,
that something that I could emulate.
Well,
it's a bit of a paradox.
So when I first got into teaching,
uh a again,
(32:40):
it was a very small school and I was teaching English and it was run by,
uh the school was run by,
but we would consider to be a president or chancellor or something like that who had this reputation of being a bully and,
and he got things done.
So I was a little bit afraid of him and I didn't interact with him a whole lot.
(33:02):
Well,
he happened to pop into my class one day and just sat in the back and I was terrified.
I'm like,
why is this guy here?
So I tried to ignore him and he took an interest in me and invited me to coffee.
We had coffee and he asked me what I wanted to do with my career.
And I thought I was just gonna teach the rest of my life.
(33:23):
And he said,
Hector in his way,
in,
in his kind of blunt way.
He said,
you're wasting your talent,
you're wasting your talent.
And at the time,
I was a bit offended because,
you know,
I love teaching.
And he told me he basically saw something in me that I didn't see.
And that was,
that I had leadership ability.
(33:44):
I was content being in my classroom,
closing the door,
being with my students and doing my thing as a professor.
But he saw potential that,
that I just never really thought I had kind of back to being smart enough to go to school.
So he encouraged me to,
to think about administration and he pushed me to,
(34:05):
to a very high level in that organization.
I became a provost could be considered the same as a provost and I was,
I was the academic leader for this school and I never thought I would do that.
He was hard to work for,
he screamed and yelled and threw things sometimes.
And yet the what really what I take away from that whole experience is one how not to be that kind of boss,
(34:26):
but also that,
that he had this ability to see talent.
And,
and I,
I really look for that also when I see someone with very high potential and maybe they don't see it themselves.
Uh You know,
I feel like I have an ability to tell people and to,
to mentor people.
I I love to mentor young ombuds who are,
(34:48):
who are new in the profession or want to be in the profession.
So even though he wasn't the greatest boss,
he did see something in me that really changed the course of my life.
So I did prefer the classroom,
I have to say.
And yet he taught me how to be a leader and how to manage people.
I had at 1.50 people who reported to me in one way or another in the hierarchy.
(35:10):
And I ha I gained tons of conflict resolution skills,
just managing people talk about conflict,
right?
When you manage people,
you're gonna have conflict and I dealt with every problem you could think of in management.
So now when a manager comes to me and they're struggling with someone who's,
you know,
really hard to manage,
(35:30):
I can help them because I know what that feels like managing people is one of the hardest jobs in the world.
And,
and,
and I had that experience because they,
so it's a little bit kind of,
you know,
paradoxical and yet I,
I still remember him and,
and I would thank him today for how he,
you know,
helped me in my career.
It's a wonderful example.
I was thinking so very buzzy of you because we,
(35:54):
we are not one thing or another,
but you know,
we can learn and like legitimately learn and grow and also recognize that there are difficulties and things that ought not be going on.
But a lot of times when somebody is,
you know,
obviously,
if they are yelling or throwing or whatever they might be doing,
that is unacceptable behavior.
And yet we aren't one thing or the other.
(36:16):
It's,
it,
it's just a wonderful example of being able to learn and really embrace and really benefit because you didn't just write this person off as simply a jerk.
Um But you could kind of hold space for both and see how you could learn and grow and have these wonderful experiences.
Well,
and also,
(36:36):
you know,
what has helped me and that experience helped me is when someone comes to me and they're describing the situation that sounds similar.
Maybe they are being bullied.
I'm not taking,
I'm not condoning the bullying behavior when I say this.
But I,
I can understand maybe why this person is a bully.
So I found out over a few years of working with this person,
(36:58):
my my boss that um there were reasons why he would explode and he was under an incredible amount of pressure and,
and um he was on the verge of losing his job a few times and he,
we didn't know that.
Unfortunately,
he took it out on us.
So when someone comes and talks to me about,
you know,
a,
a boss who's just a jerk or,
or very abusive,
(37:19):
if I get a chance to talk to that leader.
I'm able to have that conversation with them and be their ombuds as well.
And often I hear man,
this person is under a lot of pressure or they didn't even realize they were being that way and,
and they make adjustments and sometimes they need to coach.
Right?
Or sometimes they just need a mirror and,
and a reminder that that's not how you treat people and I'm not condoning that behavior at all.
(37:43):
It's awful.
I've had abusive bosses.
It's no fun at all.
And yet I,
I as an ombud,
I know that I can help in that space regardless of,
of who the person is and at what level I'm talking.
So one of the things that I was a little intimidated about when I first became an,
but just speaking to leaders,
you know,
people that very high level and my experience with my former boss kind of prepared me for that to be able to sit in that space with power and not be intimidated,
(38:13):
not that I wasn't intimidated,
but at least I knew how to talk to them.
Yeah.
And I,
I do like thinking about bullies clearly,
there's bullying behavior,
there's illegal behavior.
But the narrative that we,
a lot of times people give to themselves about somebody else who is causing them problems at work is that person is a bully.
And if that person is a bully is an indictment of who they are as a personality instead of looking at particular kinds of behaviors.
(38:40):
And a lot of times in conflict,
we,
we spin this other person to be this cardboard cut out.
They're not a real person.
And in so far as we can humanize and get clear about these specific behaviors,
a lot of times as you said,
the,
the quote unquote bully doesn't know they're doing this or they think they're being effective or as you said,
they're getting things done and,
(39:01):
and there's all the stuff in their past that some coaching or awareness can help them be a good colleague.
And you know,
the sort of communication that can take place when we stop labeling people and see them as people,
we know we villainize them and we become the victim and they,
(39:22):
and then we other that person,
right?
And then,
and then we have no compassion at all for,
for them.
And I see that happen a lot where e exactly like you're saying,
we,
we paint this picture and narrative in our minds of uh how flawed someone's character is because of their behavior and,
and then it becomes about their personhood instead of their behavior,
(39:46):
right?
So yeah,
the behavior is bad and we need to address that,
but I don't think we should cancel people uh because of their bad behavior.
And I,
I know we live a little bit,
we've gone through some cancel culture and,
and there's still still that happening and yet I,
I think it's unfortunate when,
when we just write someone off and just say,
(40:07):
yeah,
they're a jerk.
That person is a jerk.
They're,
they're beyond help.
Um To me,
I think that's part of why we're struggling with difference in the world is we go,
we,
you know,
the royal,
we go from A to Z without thinking about what's happening in the middle with this person and we,
(40:27):
we just decide that that's the way it is and there's no way to change it and,
and often there are paths,
conflict resolution as you know,
is there sometimes situations seem pretty bleak and then it works out because we sit down right and we just start being human and talking to each other and actually listening and then things seem to be uh less,
(40:49):
less,
um,
less pressurized and that narrative changes in our minds.
Absolutely.
When you think about the different people that you've worked with and the different places you've been,
can you tell us about a conflict you had with a colleague and,
and how you dealt with it?
So,
me personally,
yeah.
Uh Well,
I think this will inform our conversation about abusive behavior when I work.
(41:14):
Well,
we just say I worked at a spot and,
um,
and I had a supervisor who was very demanding and it was a pretty large unit and this person had themselves worked their way up through the ranks,
worked really hard to be where they got,
got to pretty high level and,
and yet,
and had very high standards.
(41:34):
So this is not,
not my,
my first example,
this is a different person.
Uh And uh when I first got to the unit,
I,
I noticed that this person was pretty direct,
had a very direct communication style.
Uh And didn't the way people phrased it,
she doesn't suffer fools.
And I wasn't even quite sure what that meant,
but I,
(41:54):
I learned quickly and that in itself was problematic.
So I started to notice that uh that the way this person managed other people was very hurtful and harmful and,
and it was verbal,
it was all verbal and it got to that level of abuse where they would make people cry in a,
(42:14):
in a,
in,
in our staff meetings.
And while I wasn't on the other end of that receiving that I was witnessing it and I knew I had to do something about it.
So I wasn't an ombuds.
But then again,
conflict,
right?
If,
if you're in the workplace,
you're gonna,
you're gonna experience conflict.
So I had to make a decision of how to handle that as a bystander.
(42:39):
And it wasn't my conflict,
but I was seeing that a lot of harm was done,
being done and the way I decided to handle it was to go talk to them.
And this person was my boss in a,
in a one on one.
I,
I did my best with limited skills to let them know that what was I what I was experiencing just felt wrong and,
(42:59):
and I was trying to help that person.
So what ended up happening is instead of it helping it,
it made things worse for me because I then became the object of this person's ire.
And I started being the person receiving that kind of very negative behavior.
And it,
it,
(43:19):
it was,
it was a toxic workplace environment,
everybody was afraid of this person.
Uh Nobody spoke up,
there was just a lot of fear around uh you know,
being vocal about anything.
So I ended up,
I ended up going to hr and,
and shared my experience with,
with an hr representative and eventually this person was let go and it's a bit of a dark story and yet I think it also informs my work as a,
(43:49):
as an ombuds and as a person and that there are times where you just have to take the risk of,
of speaking up and advocating not only for yourself,
but for others,
it's a little and it's a little bit contradictory to what we do as ombuds because we're taught that we don't advocate for people.
And I think that's true,
but I do think we advocate Mary as ombuds,
(44:10):
we advocate in,
in a,
in our way,
maybe not for a specific person,
but,
you know,
I was advocating for the people in,
in that unit that were being,
you know,
treated very poorly.
Uh And then ended up advocating for myself.
Of course,
I was in ombuds at the time.
But I think about that experience a lot because I have a lot of compassion for people who,
(44:30):
who say they're being abused by a supervisor as,
you know,
mental abuse and verbal abuse is just as painful to the brain and to the body as physical abuse.
So,
so I,
I think about that experience a lot,
taught me a lot and also tell me about,
you know,
how to be a better leader myself.
Thank you for sharing that experience.
(44:52):
I think a lot of people do find themselves as witness too.
And the question is,
you know,
and a lot of times we're told that's none of your concern.
It doesn't deal,
it doesn't concern you.
So don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
And there's,
there's this,
this dual message I think in our culture,
(45:12):
if you see something,
say something,
you know,
if you say nothing and you see it,
you are complicit in that and at the same time,
it's mind your own business and privacy.
And so,
you know,
we're caught.
Well,
if I say something,
am I being nosy?
If I don't say something,
am I complicit in this negative toxic behavior?
(45:32):
And it is very confusing as to what to do?
And then of course,
there's the cost if I speak up what will happen.
But I think what you,
I think through your example shows is that in all kind of conflicts,
whether it's personally happening to us or we're witnessing it when we decide to do something and we are putting ourselves in an empowered position when we say this is not OK.
(45:55):
And so we start to prepare and think about what are our next steps instead of conflict has this disempowering effect.
Somebody else has the power and we're left confused wondering,
we don't know what to do.
But when we decide to act,
we are,
we are empowered again to say I need something different.
I'm willing to put myself out here and the consequences,
(46:19):
of course,
you can be as you were targeted,
you could be let go.
The other person might be let go.
We don't know the future,
but all we can do is act in our own good conscience and realize that we don't have to give our power away to somebody else that we can act for our good and the good of others.
You know,
a big part of that that I try to mitigate with people is the the risk of saying something.
(46:45):
So when they're talking to us as ombuds in that confidential space,
the risk is,
is lower,
right?
There's no consequence,
negative consequence for them being honest or open if they trust you,
right?
Like they're real.
But if they actually say something I did,
there is a risk and sometimes we don't know what the risk is and I wish I would have come up with this.
(47:07):
But I,
I read it somewhere that,
that if the risk is too high for a person to perceive a real risk,
they're just not gonna say anything at some point,
the need outweighs the risk and it doesn't matter what the,
what the risk because you just have to say something.
And I think I got to that point where I had,
I had to say something,
even if I,
even if there was retaliation because I just couldn't live with myself anymore in that situation.
(47:32):
And I see that in my visitors a lot where they're,
they're just struggling with the,
but they're gonna pay if they say anything at all because often,
often it comes down to,
have you talked to that person yet?
No,
they're afraid because the risk is too high,
right?
Or there's a lot of power imbalance.
And so people just won't do it and yet they suffer through,
through whatever it is they're experiencing and,
(47:54):
and a lot of times they leave,
uh,
and,
or their performance suffers and,
and,
you know,
they,
they get managed out unfortunately,
instead of speaking up,
right?
And just saying what they need to say and then giving as buts giving people the skills to say it in a way that's effective.
Right?
Because there's also a way to speak truth to power.
(48:14):
Um,
that in a way that works or,
or is way more successful than just,
you know,
blurting it out there.
So,
and I think that is very helpful when you have somebody like an ombud,
somebody in that kind of space where they can help you see.
Ok.
Well,
there is this sort of pain you're already experiencing.
(48:34):
And so a lot of times people will just stay with the pain they know because the unknown can be scary and yet to try to help someone to see.
Ok,
well,
this is what you're experiencing right now.
And a lot of times we discount that because we already have that stabbing pain and we know what that is like,
but to really try to articulate what is this costing you now?
(48:55):
Right.
Right.
And,
and through,
through assistance of someone like an ombuds for that training is to build that conflict competence and to start building that.
And maybe the first conversation you have is not with your boss,
but you maybe work it with your spouse or work it with somebody else.
And so you can develop that and maybe you're more willing to have those,
those more difficult conversations.
(49:17):
Well,
you know,
many years ago,
I did a presentation and it was called Speaking Truth To Power.
And a couple of the participants challenged me a bit and,
and I think about that a lot and their challenge to me was we have to be careful with our visitors not to put them in a situation that's harmful for them,
which I 100% agree.
So there are times that it's the avoidance is the right thing,
(49:40):
at least for a period of time.
And,
you know,
and I acknowledge that I also say that to my visitors,
sometimes,
you know,
sometimes just not doing anything is the right thing to do right now.
Um And yet it depends on their capacity to live in that space,
right?
And so uh speaking,
truth to power is can be fraught.
(50:03):
And yet I,
I do also believe that when people have conflict,
competence and the skills,
the tools to have those conversations that that there is a path to resolution and it's not all bleak um which is often where our visitors are,
right?
They just don't see a way out.
So I do acknowledge,
I wanna acknowledge that but there are times that yeah,
(50:23):
I can saying something to someone with a lot of power um may be harmful.
So that's possible.
Retaliation is real,
right?
And um it can happen in,
in not so not so subtle ways and subtle ways.
And unfortunately,
it still happens,
you know,
it still happens in the workplace.
Yeah.
(50:44):
And yet I think when somebody goes to see an ombud,
that's already a start of a turn,
right?
Or at least the possibility because it takes courage or when anybody shows up to mediation.
I think I'm in awe of their courage because they are willing to sit in the same room with their quote unquote work nemesis,
this person that has caused them,
this,
all this pain and they're there of their own free will.
(51:08):
Right.
And to me that is already such a win.
I wish they could see it.
I try to encourage them and,
and tell them what I see.
But,
right.
So that's another lovely thing about going to an ombuds is that the,
the you're not going to leave there with.
All right,
this is what you're going to do next.
And now you,
now you gonna have to go confront that person.
(51:29):
No,
it's up to them.
They can decide what it is they want to do and it may sometimes you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them,
right?
Sometimes you know,
you do say something and sometimes you just got to know when to speak and that's an art and the more we develop those and the more we think about what to say,
(51:49):
how to say it when to say it.
What are those hills that,
what are the non negotiables for us?
That all of this is self knowledge,
right?
And we start from that and then we can move forward.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And we haven't even talked about mediation a lot.
That's another powerful aspect of,
of what I but to do and what mediators do is providing a space for people to come together and,
(52:14):
and and to uh hopefully be safe enough or feel safe enough to,
to be honest about,
to be candid about what,
what they're experiencing.
Um,
I don't do a lot of mediation.
I do mediate,
but I am often in awe as you said,
of people's courage and also how powerful it is to hear for both parties to hear their story.
(52:36):
It's like all of a sudden there's sometimes it doesn't work,
but when it does work,
there are aha moments and I've heard people say,
wow,
I didn't know that and I didn't realize that was what was happening with you and,
and that's very rewarding as well.
Yeah.
Making space for that third way.
How do you actually have dialogue with this person who you think is unreasonable all of a sudden when you hear somebody else's story and you feel like you've been heard the dialect that can take place.
(53:06):
There can be this,
this new possibility where there was a possibility because the bleakness,
the despair that people really feel and um going to creep up into a work environment is,
is so heartbreaking and causes all this these ramifications.
But there is hope and there are paths and there is a new day tomorrow.
(53:31):
But whatever that may be,
whatever that holds,
whether that's leaving an environment or trying to mend at the place that you are,
there are a lot of possibilities.
So Hector I'd like to end with this question when you think about the world of work.
What do you think needs to happen?
So that not only is everyone from part time worker to the CEO treated with dignity and respect,
(53:56):
but encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Yeah,
that's,
that's such a big,
big question.
And I think it,
it's hard to answer simply but I think because of the frame that,
you know,
I look at the world or the perspective,
the lens as an ombuds is,
(54:16):
I think what we're needing more now than ever are opportunities for people who have differences to be able to come together and,
and to,
and to provide some space in our communities where,
you know,
people can sit down and actually have a conversation about what's happening with them.
(54:38):
II,
I don't see those kinds of spaces a lot.
I mean,
obviously as an ombuds and the mediators that,
that,
that those are the spaces we provide.
But I think it's,
it needs to go beyond our,
our professions and be a part of what an organization's culture is.
Just seems like when I work with,
I also work with nonprofits and usually when I'm involved,
(55:01):
there's some kind of uh toxic environment in some way or another that hasn't been addressed.
And,
and maybe it's making,
you know,
your onboarding part of your on boarding experience is taking a conflict resolution course or something on communication that helps people deal with different.
I think that's where I see the biggest need is,
(55:23):
is when you sit down and talk with someone that they're just not open to the possibility that there are other perspectives.
So,
and,
and I don't think it's an age thing.
You know,
I used to think maybe this is generational,
this is across all generations where you just turn on the news.
Right.
And you can see that there are,
uh,
there is an incredible amount of polarization in the world and,
(55:43):
and it just seems to be at a peak again in our history.
Yeah,
I agree.
Opportunities to listen,
opportunities to practice civility.
Um It's easy to be civil with people who are like minded,
right?
But to actually develop those,
then we need to have those opportunities.
Hector,
thank you so much for your time.
(56:04):
It's been so delightful chatting with you today.
I went by really quickly.
It did,
it did.
Thank you,
Hector so much for our conversation.
That hour just flew by and I think of all the different sorts of things I wanted to ask you and I'm just very grateful for the conversation that we had and for the work that you have been doing all throughout your career,
to help people have healthy work and to empower individuals to make their own choices for their own good and the good of others.
(56:31):
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (56:41):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and starts a conversation about what to do instead in order to have healthy work environments come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot and remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
(57:03):
Take care.
So.
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