January 30, 2024 • 55 mins
🎙️ Welcome to a fresh episode of Conflict Managed. Today, we are honored to host Richard Robinson, a prominent professor of Communications at UT Martin.
Join us as we discuss:
🌱Trust Grows Success: the impact of trust-building in the workplace.
⚖️ Broken Trust's Ripple: the consequences of shattered team trust.
🏆 Model Management: learn from a standout example of effective leadership.
đź’” Ignoring Costs Big: examine the price of neglecting employee concerns.
Dr. Richard Robinson joined the Department of Communications at The University of Tennessee at Martin in 2001, where he teaches courses in broadcasting, public relations and public speaking. He also serves as the faculty adviser for the campus radio station WUTM, 90.3 “The Hawk.”
During his tenure at UT Martin, his broadcast students and the radio station have won close to 400 awards in state, regional, national and international competitions. In 2012 and 2016, WUTM was named the “Best College Radio Station in the Nation” by the Intercollegiate Broadcasting System. The student-operated station has been named the “Best College Radio Station in the South” 10 times in the past 19 years, including 2022 and 2023.
Robinson received the UT National Alumni Outstanding Teacher of the Year Award in 2007 and 2020 and has been named an Outstanding Educator by UT Martin twice, in 2005 and 2007. He was also honored with the University of Tennessee System President’s Award in the category of Educate. He also works as a broadcast, political and public relations media consultant. Â
Robinson is an active member of Trinity Presbyterian Church, where he serves as an elder, and sings in the choir. He is also a trained ballroom dancer and classical violinist, and is a charter member and Concert Master of the UTM Community Orchestra.
Conflict Managed is hosted by Merry Brown and produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services (3pconflictrestoration.com).
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now,
get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.
(00:25):
So,
welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we are joined by Doctor Richard Robinson.
Richard joined the Department of Communications at the University of Tennessee at Martin in 2001 where he teaches courses in broadcasting,
public relations and public speaking.
He also serves as the faculty advisor for the campus radio station.
(00:45):
WUTM 90.3 The Hawk during his tenure at UTM,
his broadcast students and the radio station have won close to 400 awards in state,
regional national and international competitions in 2012 and 2016.
WUTM was named the best college radio station in the nation by the intercollegiate broadcasting system.
(01:07):
The student operated station has been named the best college radio station in the South 10 times in the past 19 years including 2022 and 2023.
Richard received the UT national alumni,
outstanding teacher of the year award in 2007 and in 2020 has been named an outstanding educator by UT Martin twice in 2005 and in 2007,
(01:29):
he was also honored with the University of Tennessee Systems President's Award in the category of education.
He also works as a broadcast,
political and public relations,
media consultant.
Richard is an active member of the Trinity Presbyterian Church where he serves as an elder and sings on the choir.
He is also a trained ballroom dancer and classical violinist and is also a charter member and concert master of the TM community orchestra.
(01:56):
Good morning Richard.
And welcome to Conflict Managed. Good Morning Merry.
It's great to be with you today.
So happy to have you this morning here in Tennessee,
we've been facing many weather related challenges and um it's nice to get back to some semblance of normalcy.
Yes,
indeed.
Yes.
(02:16):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Start to 2024.
I would love to hear about the first job you ever had as a young man.
Well,
other than mowing lawns when I was about nine or 10,
my first job was as a newspaper carrier for my hometown local newspaper.
It was Monday through Saturday and it really taught me a lot about operating the business because what they did is you had to put up a $75 bond which you had to pay out of your,
(02:41):
your profits until you had that bond fully uh satisfied.
And then I had to do my own collections and pay,
go in and pay my bill.
You know,
every month,
turn in new subscriptions and as well as run the route and do other things.
So,
uh,
the paper printed Monday through Saturday six days a week.
So I was,
(03:02):
it,
it really taught me a lot about dealing with people and customers and responsibility for keeping up with money and paying your bills and that sort of thing.
I learned a lot.
Uh,
and I did that until I was 16 years old.
So that was my very first real job,
so to speak.
And were you in the morning before school?
No,
(03:22):
actually,
at that time and not as popular now,
it was an afternoon newspaper.
So immediately after school I was rushing down to the newspaper office to pick up my papers and then run my route.
So that is quite a lot to take on as a young person.
It was.
But my parents,
uh,
came through the depression and delayed getting married until my dad graduated from Mississippi State and they,
(03:49):
they believed in going to work and being involved in whatever you did.
So,
uh,
the only way that we were going to get out of going to church is if we were in the bed with a fever.
And I know there were a lot of times with my dad and my mother both really didn't feel well,
but they got up and went to work every day without fail,
you know,
unless they were really sick.
(04:10):
Or my mother had had surgery or something.
That was it.
So,
coming from that work ethic background,
that was what was model for me.
And that's,
uh,
I've tried to maintain that,
you know,
all throughout my work life.
So that is so not to be underestimated the importance of role models and,
and what we're raised with.
And so many times we take it for granted that what is normal to us because what was modeled day in day out,
(04:35):
year after year becomes the standard.
And so many of us are fortunate to find ourselves and families of origin that model,
that work ethic.
So it's not even a question.
Am I gonna go to work?
Am I going to do my work?
But it's just a taken for granted of course,
where other people who don't come from that background,
(04:55):
not that it's necessarily a struggle,
but it's more of a conscious decision.
This is what I'm going to do.
This is who I'm going to be in spite of what I was raised or the,
the examples that I saw.
Exactly.
I think that also spills into workplace etiquette.
I just saw an article about bosses wanting their new employees to go through workplace etiquette.
(05:19):
And I think it's interesting,
uh there certainly are something to generational differences in workplace today,
but it also has to do with expectation.
What is the expectation I was raised with is going to be a different expectation than maybe a younger generation or somebody else.
And so we're,
but we're all in the workplace together.
(05:40):
Oh,
yes.
And,
and we all have to work together whether we like it or not.
That's right.
Which is a part of being an adult.
We realize not everything that we like and everything is not about us.
Well,
and I had a parent tell me one time they said,
I just don't want my son to have it as rough as I did.
And I said,
a,
a and have to work as hard as I do.
(06:02):
And I said,
why not?
My dad always said hard work,
never hurt anybody.
Um,
not necessarily true,
but I mean,
I,
I get it.
I understand what he meant by that.
Yeah.
So what did you do after the paper route when I was 16?
I decided I wanted to.
Yeah,
because I've been doing it since I was 11.
I decided I wanted a real job.
(06:23):
So I went to work,
um,
I,
the last paper route I had was called the town route.
You walked it and you went around to all the businesses and delivered the papers.
And I got to be good friends with the theater manager.
And so my,
uh,
I was talking to my parents one night and I said,
I'd really like to get a job,
you know,
where you paid by the hour and that sort of thing.
And they said,
well,
why don't you go down to see Mr Brown at the movie theater because he,
(06:46):
uh,
he seems to like you.
So I went down and applied and he hired me and,
uh,
to tell you how long ago this was my first job was working as a fill in Usher or doorman at the downtown movie theater.
On Wednesday nights when the doorman had a one night off a week and on Saturday and Sunday afternoons,
my job was to sell tickets and concessions in the colored balcony.
(07:11):
This was 1969.
Even though the little rock integration crisis had already transpired in 1957 there were still some hangers on and this old theater manager wanted things to stay the same.
So I had to,
uh,
the African American customers could come up a,
um,
fire escape and come in and exit door.
(07:34):
And I sold the tickets there and they had limited concessions that I said there.
And I was also supposed to try to keep order,
uh,
inside the sectioned off area of the balcony,
which is where the African American population had to sit.
And I did that until a new manager came in about six months later because the older one retired and,
(07:54):
uh,
he closed the colored balcony,
so to speak.
And everybody in came in downstairs,
which was interesting because we,
some of the African Americans did not like it because it was cheaper if you went up to the balcony section for them.
But,
uh,
So I had an interesting experience and then I went on to become a,
a relief projectionist and I was an assistant manager and a manager and I ran movie theaters all through college and beyond till I was about 25.
(08:21):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Like as a young person,
uh,
you know,
1516,
you're networking just by showing up and doing good work and all the relationships that,
that we make just by,
by being a good worker,
by being conscientious,
by being interested in other persons.
We never know what that might turn into.
(08:42):
It might just turn into,
I feel better about my community because I know more about my community and I,
you know,
just I'm neighborly but sometimes those turn into opportunities.
Well,
my dad gave me some advice early on.
He said,
uh whenever you go to work,
don't just do what's required,
do what's necessary.
And I've never forgotten that.
(09:03):
I mean,
in other words,
don't just do the minimum to get you by,
do everything you can do more than you can.
Uh or do you think you can?
And it,
people will notice and that's been true for me.
Yes.
You know,
when people say,
but that's not in my job description.
I,
I wonder,
you know,
what is going on there.
And I think we do people a disservice by talking about the job they're in versus who they are as a person and the kind of work career they want to have and the quality of life they want to have.
(09:32):
And so when we think about simple job description,
it's very transactional instead of relational and the quality of life has to do with our relationships.
And this transactional commodified the person and then even who they're working with.
Well,
I had a news director when I worked in radio news,
(09:53):
which was later on after college.
But he always said there are two things I don't want to hear.
Number one,
I don't want to hear.
It's not my job.
Number two that I want to hear.
Uh that's the way we've always done it.
He said those two phrases do not exist in my world.
So,
and he meant it the duties as a sign,
(10:15):
the old state employees job description.
That's right.
And I think that's,
you know,
that's a part of,
you know,
being a team player,
but also a part of being a good manager is being very clear about,
well,
what is it you're supposed to be doing?
What is the bulk of the job you're supposed to be doing and not overburdening people unnecessarily,
there's many times that ends up in a team and means that there's not an even distribution of work,
(10:41):
even though people maybe are being paid the same or getting the same perks.
And all of us feel when we feel like we're not being cared for or we feel like there's an injustice or we feel like the manager isn't really being invested in caring and seeing what's going on that causes a lot of friction.
It does.
And,
uh,
a lot of,
(11:01):
some of that can be avoided.
There,
there are going to be times I think when there are going to be conflicts that,
uh,
are very difficult to resolve and sometimes they're resolved by someone getting relieved of their position or,
or being demoted or them leaving.
Or,
uh,
it could be that they actually do get resolved in the workplace,
but that requires a cooper staff and an effective manager.
(11:27):
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So,
when you went to college,
did you go for communication or did you know what you did you want,
did you know that you wanted to go into this field into radio and,
and teaching?
You know,
my problem in college was I like so many things.
I loved history.
I love math.
I love theater.
I love speech.
And back in those days it was either speech or journalism.
(11:48):
So I walked into my adviser's office,
uh,
I think the start of my junior year and I said,
Mr Duncan,
I think I'm a journalism major.
And he said,
ok,
well,
uh,
let's look at this.
Would you like to get the education hours as well?
So that you could always teach if you wanted to?
And I said,
oh,
no,
I come from a family of school teachers.
(12:08):
I know what the hours are.
I know.
What the pay is.
I will never teach.
So,
just forget that I,
I'm not doing it.
And that's when,
with one of the first times when I learned later on,
you never say never because that's exactly what I wound up doing later on.
That's right.
So,
tell us what happened.
What is sort of your,
the arc of your,
your career after college.
(12:31):
After college,
I was in the movie theater business and then I left and went to work at a radio station in,
uh,
Pine Bluff.
And I'm not gonna tell you all the radio stations I work for,
there's been several,
but this was KCL,
a razorback country.
And,
uh,
I,
I did that for three years and then,
(12:51):
uh,
went back into the movie theater business and moved to a small town called Arkadelphia for a while.
And then,
uh,
went to Little Rock and worked at the station.
There,
went to Hot Springs and worked at the station there,
went back to Arkadelphia and went to work in radio there.
I was a news reporter,
a news anchor was a morning host.
(13:14):
Uh,
I did a lot of,
of different things during my career,
which spanned about 19 years I think.
And,
uh,
then I guess about 1987 it was,
I went to work for a state agency outside of Arkadelphia that was,
uh,
a,
a residential and a training facility for the intellectually challenged.
(13:35):
It was residential training and had a special aid component to it at that time.
And uh had 100 and 60 developmentally disabled clients that lived there and trained there and worked there and we had a lot of different programs.
So I was the pr director and I did that for 14 years.
Uh but I still worked in radio part time.
(13:55):
Uh I did mornings for a while and then I,
I did other things and I would anchor election coverage.
They always had me do that and things of that nature.
And then I decided I wanted to,
I,
I taught a guest lectured at a couple of classes at a local university and there were two in the town that I lived in and I decided that I would just,
you know,
(14:16):
I want to get a master's so I could teach.
And I,
I naively thought if I get my master's,
they'll come knocking at my door.
I,
I went back to school at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock commuted back and forth part time for three years.
Got my master's didn't get a job immediately.
Got out in 95 and 97 Henderson State University can call in and say we need somebody to advise the radio station.
(14:40):
We need somebody to uh teach a couple of classes,
broadcast journalism,
adjunct.
So I did that.
And uh for a year and at the same time I took on a position at it was called Wash Technical college.
It's now called College of the Wash was 20 miles away in a town called Melbourne.
(15:00):
I was teaching a night class in public speaking,
oral communication.
And after a year,
Henderson was so impressed with my work.
They raised my pay from $1500 per three hour class to $1600 for three hour class.
Uh,
but they,
they wanted me to get a doctorate and there was no place around to get a doctorate other than a doctorate in education.
(15:22):
So,
uh,
I applied for the educational doctorate program at Ualr in Little Rock and I was accepted.
But they kept telling me,
you know,
you need a phd,
you know,
there's a lot of snobbery in academia.
So,
uh,
I,
I taught for two more years,
total of four years and started looking around.
And in 2000,
I got a job offer to go to a university in Texas did not have a good vibe to it.
(15:47):
And my wife had her own business and we weren't really prepared to make that drastic move and there was still no doctoral program close.
Even though this was just outside of Dallas,
I turned it down.
And the next year,
a friend of mine called me and said,
hey,
there's a place called UT Martin that's looking for a job,
looking for a professor.
That sounds just like you.
(16:07):
And my first reaction was ok.
Where is Martin?
I heard of it,
but I don't know where it was.
Once I found out where it was,
I had applied to previously to Memphis University of Memphis and they accepted me and into their doctoral program.
So I thought this would be great.
I could come here,
I could teach and I could get my doctorate.
I moved up,
we moved here in 01 and,
(16:28):
uh I went to Memphis for a year and Gerald Ogg who was the dean at the time said you're not gonna like a program,
it's rhetoric or com and you're a mass com guy,
you need to go to like,
si U Carbondale.
So I transferred my hours to Carbondale and took me about six more years.
But I got my doctorate and I've stayed here the entire time and it's,
it's worked out very well for me.
I mean,
(16:48):
Ut Martin has been very good to me.
What an interesting career.
I mean,
it sounds like you've had three or four careers in the,
in the span of your career,
which I am and,
and I'm,
I'm not ashamed to admit that I am 71 right now.
He's 72 in September.
So,
but when I hear about all of your different experiences,
(17:09):
they all seem very tied together even from the paper route.
You know,
this is this external public facing,
communicating with individuals and self starting,
you know,
being in radio,
I'm sure you did investigations and just being on air and communicating in that in that sort of way.
(17:31):
If you see this thread that goes all the way through,
even through the education.
Isn't that interesting how it all sort of ties together.
And my dad who was quite the philosopher and a man of few words ordinarily,
but he'd say,
hey,
you're going to be fine because God takes care of drunks and fools.
(17:53):
Oh,
goodness.
So,
when you think about all the different places that you've worked and the people that you've worked with,
what strikes you as the best experience you had with like a boss or a manager.
And what was so good about it?
The,
the best experience that I've had in the workplace has been when I worked for the state agency.
And initially it was not that great and the reason it wasn't that great,
(18:19):
it was I was the pr director and uh the lead administrator who was called the superintendent uh was pleaded guilty to embezzlement charges and was went to state prison.
But then we brought in,
I brought in a young woman and she was my age,
but she had worked there and then moved to another smaller facility and run in it.
(18:41):
She had run it and um as the superintendent and then came back and when she came back,
that's when I learned a whole lot about a lot of things.
She was very rigid in following rules and policies and procedures,
but she was very forgiving in a way as well.
And one of the things she did that I really liked was if,
(19:01):
you know,
if you look at a lot of personnel files with companies,
you'll find things that have to be there because of record and you went through this training or you had this in service or this disciplinary action,
she wrote what we referred to as good notes and other people could do it too.
So she would write something like you did a really good job with the organizational chart on desktop publishing.
(19:23):
I know that you worked hard on that or I particularly like like this last issue of the newsletter that you put out staff,
I liked your editorial,
you know,
so she put good notes and at,
at the end of the review period and we were reviewed twice a year,
six months,
which was a tertiary not permanent record,
but she could identify areas that you needed to work on six months and then the year you had the annual review and sometimes my reviews would be half an inch thick because of all the,
(19:52):
the good notes and all the other things.
So that was very uh very positive and motivating thing for me.
And one of the things that uh she would do is if you did something wrong,
she would let you know it.
And she uh at one of my annual reviews,
she said,
OK,
(20:12):
I gave you this assignment to get this done.
And you haven't done it yet and I really want to get this done.
And so what I would like for you to do is send me a monthly report detailing your progress on this project until it's completed.
And I said,
OK,
I understand that.
But uh you have to understand that,
(20:33):
you know,
for lack of anybody else,
I'm the tech guy,
people have a computer problem.
I get called on people ask me to do this,
write this,
do this.
And,
you know,
here's some examples and I showed her and she said,
OK,
I understand that.
So here's what we're going to do since you work directly under my supervision.
If somebody comes to you and wants you to do something,
(20:56):
it's gonna take any amount of time at all,
you send them to me and I will tell you if you need to do it or not and I may send them to somebody else or I might tell them he's too busy.
He can't do it right now.
So I'll tell them that.
And uh if I decide you need to do what they're asking you to do,
I will give you some extra time to finish the projects that you're working on.
(21:17):
And if you need me to,
I'll prioritize it for you.
What I want done.
Well,
I can tell you that after doing monthly reports for about three months,
I finished that project because I wanted it off my back and I didn't want to have to write another monthly report.
But so while she was critical when she needed to be,
and she was positive when she needed to be overall,
(21:37):
she was fair.
And I think that's what a lot of employees are looking for is fairness.
Now,
some employees want preference.
You know,
they want people to let them slide and do all sorts of things.
And there are some managers that will let that happen.
But uh in,
in the workplace,
you have to motivate employees.
And I think if you're gonna be an effective manager,
you have to give feedback,
(21:59):
both bad and good in order to let people know where they stand.
So that when the time comes,
if you,
they say we're going to part company,
you've got a track record,
you've got a history and you know why you're being let go or you know,
that you've done a good job.
I absolutely love that.
I love the good notes in your file.
(22:19):
And when I think about fairness,
sometimes people think fairness is,
is 5050.
So you need the praise and the criticism.
But I think if you're really talking about fairness,
if somebody is coming into work and doing their job and generally doing a good job,
the actual praise is going to be much higher.
I mean,
it's probably going to be closer to 80 to 90% of the stuff you're doing right or higher.
(22:44):
And so to be noticed,
what more do we want than to be recognized?
And I think there's an old mentality that says,
uh,
you get recognized with a paycheck and benefits.
That's your recognition.
Why am I going to recognize you for doing your job?
And I think that in attitude treats us like computers and doesn't understand what a human person needs and that we are seeking validation and we're always looking at our environment and as you said,
(23:13):
the psychological benefit of being noticed,
it's encouraging,
it helps us to see.
I'm on the right track and I'm going to do more of that,
right?
We want positive reinforcement and,
but also knowing that you are going to be told the truth,
right?
So clarity is kindness.
So you can also trust this uh boss that if there isn't something going right?
(23:35):
You've got this open communication,
you have this goodwill,
you can trust this person,
they have your back because they do see what you're doing and you're like,
oh,
ok,
I need to do that.
But even more than that,
she made a way for you.
She just didn't say I don't want to hear it.
Get it done.
You said,
well,
this is,
this is part of the problem.
She's like,
oh,
ok,
there's a problem.
Let's let me help you solve that problem so that you can get it done,
(23:59):
right?
What a wonderful example.
Yeah.
Thank you.
That's,
that's uh and,
and we still stay in touch today even though she is my age,
she retired several years ago.
But she's,
uh,
she was one of probably the best example and the most effective manager that I've ever worked for.
Wow,
she sounds on top of it.
That's amazing.
(24:20):
You know,
it is interesting.
You know,
some of us want preferential treatment and I suppose we all have these certain sorts of basic psychological needs for belonging to be cared for,
to.
But this letting people slide,
it's such a temporary bandage.
But that means the culture is suffering because when I see somebody else sliding,
(24:42):
I immediately think this is not a fair culture.
I don't understand why they are quote unquote,
getting away with it,
but we're supposed to be a bunch of adults,
right?
And so getting away with it sounds more,
it's pretty childish.
And so if you have AAA manager,
that is the bar is the same for everyone because we're all employees here.
It doesn't mean we're doing the same work because we have different jobs.
(25:03):
We have different needs at different times.
That's the human factor.
But if you have that goodwill and trust towards your boss,
then you don't need to be looking at what Sally or Jim are doing,
you're doing what you're doing and you trust that it's being fairly distributed and I'm sure if you had a question,
you'd be able to talk to her about it.
Yeah.
And uh I know that some of the people would complain about this one particular supervisor because,
(25:28):
you know,
she expected you to be there at,
um,
your time and they put in time clocks at one point because at another facility,
some people had said they weren't paid for hours that they worked and they had no record of it.
So they,
they put in time clocks and I would get into trouble because I was supposed to be at work at nine o'clock.
(25:48):
And I would get there,
you know,
8830 I'd forget about the time and then I'd realize it was a minute passed.
And there have been a number of times I get to the time clock which was all the way around the building and punch in just as it went nine o'clock.
And,
but there were a few times that I would go in,
I'd say,
ok,
I was late,
(26:09):
minute late.
I ripped myself up.
She said you were here before your work time.
And I said,
I know,
but I did forgot.
She said,
Richard buy you an alarm clock and set it for five minutes before.
And then when it goes off,
go clock in,
I'm tired of signing these write up forms.
You're gonna get in trouble.
Ok.
Ok.
So I,
I did,
you know,
and,
uh,
but I had a employee tell me one time,
(26:30):
you know,
that time clock is gonna get me fired.
I said,
no,
no,
no.
The time clock.
Is gonna keep time and it's gonna be accurate.
You don't find,
you don't get here on time.
That's,
that's not the time clock problem.
So,
um,
and the people would say,
well,
she comes in after,
you know,
she'll come in at 930 I said yes,
but she also got a call at 3 a.m. over an instant report.
(26:52):
And she lived on the campus in a,
in a home that was provided for her.
I said,
you know,
so you don't know if she leaves early,
if she's on annual leave or sick leave or you don't know.
So everybody tend to their own business and don't worry about everyone else.
And that,
that is a problem sometimes in the workplace.
It absolutely is.
And I think I do think it genuinely stems from a sense that we want,
(27:16):
we want justice.
And when we feel like when there's not transparency and when we don't have good relationships and trust is broken then that those kinds of looking over the fence and you know,
even micromanaging our colleagues or of course,
gossip,
these are all signs that there's something,
something is breaking down in the culture.
(27:37):
It could be somebody who is hired in who was stirring the pot.
It could be that somebody is just not attending to the culture because you could have a quick conversation with somebody and say,
hey,
if you have a question about what's going on,
you're welcome to do you really want to know what I do.
Right.
You know,
these are the kinds of things I do and we do have a basic desire to know in general what's going around uh us and what other people's roles are.
(28:04):
And so I think there's that,
that,
that genuine,
wanting to know and not in a negative way,
like I'm nosy but just we want to know what's going on so we can make sense of what we see and we don't like hypocrisy.
So if people say one thing and do another and if I don't trust them for some particular reason,
(28:24):
it's hard for me to extend goodwill.
So I think the more we articulate and communicate a lot that we can alleviate and,
and,
and cut stuff off at the knee,
especially if you hear it,
deal with it so we can move on.
Well,
and that is a problem with some supervisors.
I think Mary is that sometimes they are oblivious to what's going on or they ignore what's going on until you have a real problem.
(28:47):
I mean that that old festering sore in the workplace is,
is gonna be a real problem and sometimes it's avoidance,
the advisor supervisor doesn't want to deal with it,
but when they don't,
then it permeates through the entire staff much of the time.
Well,
so and so is able to do this,
they're getting away with this.
Why is this happening?
And it really hurts the morale,
(29:08):
I think of,
of all of the employees ultimately.
Now I know my vision on this is a little bit skewed because I get called in when the culture in an organization isn't dealing with conflict early,
often swiftly and justly,
and they don't have um really robust mechanisms in order to deal with employee concerns and conflicts.
But it does seem to be the default in most organizations and you have a new person come in and guess what?
(29:32):
They inherited the 23 years past and the five or 10 years past that never got dealt with.
And if you have the same employees there and the conflicts don't get dealt with,
you're not just dealing with what happened this week,
you're having a conversation about maybe something you don't know that happened three years ago.
But for that employee,
it's still this happened to them or this is happening to them or they're treated this way and it feels like nobody will do anything about it.
(30:02):
And that just is such a burden on productivity in the pola and it's such a personal burden when you go to an organization or a job,
it's hard to do your best when you feel like again,
I'm not cared for and they won't do the hard thing.
So why should I have to do the hard things?
You know,
I have read that most people typically don't leave a job over for money.
(30:26):
I mean,
sometimes they do certainly.
But,
but I think most of the time people leave because they feel like they're being ignored,
they feel like they're being passed over.
They feel like they're not appreciated.
They feel like what they do doesn't have any value to the company and dissatisfaction I think is a big part of why people leave their jobs.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
(30:46):
That is.
And it's,
uh,
it's really sad because you could have somebody who thinks really well of somebody that reports to them but they don't articulate it.
They,
they haven't been trained so many middle management they got there because they're good at what they do.
Not because they necessarily have those people skills of how to manage a group.
But then we're mad at them because they know how to work the,
(31:09):
maybe the financial system or whatever system,
but they weren't trained on.
How do you deal with these conflicts that come up?
How do you deal with people?
Because management is the people business.
How do you invest in your people in this really economic way because it saves time in the long run and you,
everybody flourishes when you have managers who know how to really manage people.
(31:34):
Yes.
And in the newsrooms where I've worked and I did work for a time at the Arkansas Radio Network.
Mr Stringer for many years,
the,
the news director would always say our image,
our credibility as a media outlet depends upon each one of you and if somebody does something bad or wrong,
it impugns the dignity and the credibility of our entire operation.
(31:57):
And I am responsible for each one of you,
which means I have to trust my reporters and I hate trusting anybody but I have to.
And so if you mess up,
I'm gonna tell you about it clearly.
And he did,
you know,
uh,
newsrooms used to be really autocratic,
top down management that's changed a little bit.
(32:19):
The best newsrooms I've worked in have been the ones that sort of had.
And this is an antiquated term,
I think.
But team based concept,
you know,
let's all pull together,
we're all steering the ship,
we're all pointing the same direction.
If we're not,
we got a problem.
And so,
uh I'll never forget my first job as a news reporter in the news director's office in the radio station.
(32:39):
He had a sign up that said company rules.
Rule number one,
news director is always right.
Rule number two,
if the news director is ever wrong,
refer back to rule number one.
Well,
I sure hope the,
um the idea of a robust team isn't antiquated.
And in fact,
collaboration is the name of the game.
(33:00):
If you want to work smarter,
if you want to work better,
if you want to have employee retain and engagement,
if you really want to take A B at the benefit of the diversity of experience and ideas,
then we really need to be able to collaborate.
That means we need to know who it is that we're working with and what their strengths are and who I can go to for this and who can rely on me for that.
(33:22):
And we really are better together,
but only if we have a functioning team that has developed a level of trust and you get that through experience and through leadership because the idea is not to get rid of disagreement.
Absolutely not.
That disagreement is good.
Conflict is good.
It's just when it's unmanaged.
So how do we manage it well?
(33:44):
And,
and I've uh amateur musician playing in an orchestra.
And uh my father-in-law was a broadcast engineer for many years and worked on circuits and PC boards and all these sorts of things.
And he asked me at the time,
he said,
why do you like playing in an orchestra?
And I said,
it's sort of like an electronic circuit,
(34:06):
you know,
if,
if one part breaks down or play something incorrectly,
it impacts the entire performance.
So everything that everybody does,
even if it's counting measures of rest is important because you've got to do the right thing at the right time when the conductor wants it.
And I think Steve Jobs one time mentioned that,
you know,
Steve Jobs was a pretty tough guy to work for.
(34:30):
Um But he,
and he wasn't an engineer and he never wrote a line of code or anything else,
but he always said I am a conductor and I direct all of the different areas of the operation.
He did some great things,
but like I said,
he was,
he was pretty tough to work for.
And the joke was if you got on the elevator with him at Apple,
(34:51):
you wanted to get off uh before the door closed because on the way up to your floor,
he would say,
what is it you do for Apple Computer?
And why is it important to the success of the company?
And if you couldn't answer him to his satisfaction,
you'd be getting off at your floor to go clean out your desk because he would fire you.
So uh he was still successful,
but I think he left a lot of former employees in his wake.
(35:15):
Yeah,
I love the orchestra idea because it's so true and we feel that synchronicity when we're really firing on all cylinders with others and,
and what comes out of it,
right?
That the music that you can play by yourself,
it's lovely,
but it is one note in a way.
But when you,
the more voices,
the more that you pull into it and then you all feel that together and when you're in sync,
(35:39):
what happens is beautiful.
And we also know that one person can come into an organization and elevate everyone,
they come in and they're on fire and they have these ideas and they're really listening to you and they want to know about you and it's just feels so encouraging and we've also had the experience of the opposite.
One person can come in and just,
(36:02):
you know,
pull everything down by their attitude,
by their work ethic,
by their negativity,
by their whatever.
And so,
you know,
there,
there,
it's the,
they're interesting dynamics in teams and organizations and,
and they are fluid because people come in and go out,
people go through different experiences.
(36:23):
That's why it's very important to have people mindfully and intentionally paying attention to what's going on so that we can continue to move forward.
And when there are hiccups and when somebody hasn't,
isn't playing the right notes or counting the rest that we address it so that chaos doesn't ensue where things don't unravel.
Yes,
(36:43):
definitely.
So,
can you tell us about uh a conflict that you had,
uh that was difficult for you and what was difficult and how did you resolve it?
I could give you a couple of examples.
I think one of the,
the questions that you had,
what's your worst job,
boss or work experience?
Uh I have been working in radio for a while and I was gonna be getting married.
(37:05):
Uh This is in 1978 and so I decided I would leave radio and I was gonna take the first job that paid more money.
So the first job that came along that paid more money and actually was quite a bit more money was a job as a management trainee at Taco Bell.
And it was this experience that led me to know and understand that fast food service was not going to be my life's work.
(37:29):
I interviewed with the district manager and he said,
ok,
you'll start on this date.
And I said that's fine.
I have a good friend who's getting married that first Saturday.
And if possible,
I would like to have that Saturday off so I could attend the wedding.
And he said,
shouldn't be a problem,
we can work that out with your schedule.
(37:50):
Great.
So,
uh,
on that Friday,
that first Friday,
he came into the restaurant,
he said,
the Richard,
uh,
I need you to work tomorrow.
And I said,
well,
we had already discussed this,
that I was going to be off because I was going to a friend's wedding.
And he said,
well,
um,
you need to decide what's more important,
(38:12):
going to the wedding event or working here.
If you go,
if you want to work here,
then you do what we tell you when we tell you to do it.
And I'll see you here at 6 a.m. tomorrow.
So when I was not happy and I called my friend,
I said,
I can't do it.
I went in at 6 a.m. the next day and he's handed me a big push broom and he said,
(38:34):
sweep the parking lot and this was in February.
He said,
I want the parking lot clean.
And I just decided,
then,
you know,
I can't trust this guy.
I mean,
he's,
we agreed on something.
He didn't hold up his end of the bargain.
He was.
And,
and I can tell you that they hired six of us as trainees.
And within a week,
(38:57):
two of them were gone.
Third week,
another one was gone.
After four weeks,
I turned in my notice to go back to work into radio in Pine Bluff,
Arkansas.
And I was gone.
And within another two weeks,
the other two had left,
I got a call from the regional office in San Antonio Taco Bell and said,
we would really like to have an exit interview with you.
(39:18):
If you don't mind,
they want to know what the issues were.
And I told them and they said,
well,
we're trying to figure out why we can't retain managers and managers,
trainees in our company in our district because uh last year,
the turnover rate of in management at Taco Bell's in a six state area was 100 and 80%.
(39:40):
Wow.
And I said,
you know,
if I had those kinds of problems,
I believe I would be on the phone trying to figure out what's going on too.
But I said the managers are basically schedulers.
They don't have any say so about running the restaurant much other than by policy.
There's no,
uh,
nothing in regard to uh marketing or promotions or working with the community of that.
(40:01):
And all,
all of that was pictured to be the case when I was hired.
And it's not the case.
I mean,
you're basically a glorified cook and supervisor of personnel and that's it.
So that was my worst experience.
That's pretty intense.
It was,
it was very intense.
And I remember they told me when I quit,
(40:22):
I turned and gave two weeks notice and they said there's no need.
You're not gonna be in train anymore.
So just go ahead and leave and that was fine.
But uh they said now you realize we have a company policy.
Once you work for Taco Bell and you leave,
you can't come back to work here again.
And I said,
no problem.
I,
I don't believe I'll be back.
So,
and I,
(40:42):
and I didn't,
but they later changed that rule because,
you know,
you got to have employees.
Yeah,
I mean,
trust is the base of a basis of all relationships.
If you don't trust,
if you fundamentally don't trust the organization that you're working for.
If you don't trust your,
your colleagues or boss,
you know,
the,
the trust is really broken.
(41:02):
If you make,
if you stay there,
you're probably doing what we call today.
Quiet quitting,
you're going to do the bare minimum,
you're going to be looking out for yourself.
You're going to spend time protecting yourself because you're staying there probably because you need to pay your mortgage.
Right.
You're staying there because you don't see the other options,
(41:23):
but you're out,
you're out.
And that's,
to me that's one of the worst work experiences you can have is to the point where,
you know what heck with it.
I'm gonna do the bare minimum and that's it.
I'm gonna come in when I have to,
I'm gonna leave as soon as I can and they can all jump in the lake as far as I'm concerned.
I hate my supervisor.
I don't like my work experience.
(41:44):
My workload is ridiculous.
All those kinds of things.
And it's that way in a lot of different businesses we had,
uh,
at the facility where I worked in the state agency,
we had,
uh,
three social workers for 100 and 60 people.
That's an impossible case load.
And that,
that's why social workers at the state level.
(42:04):
They churn through them right and left.
They get some experience.
They go on and they do something else.
They go back to graduate school or they hang out a shingle and,
you know,
it's,
uh,
it can be a problem.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And you know,
when you think about,
well,
why would there only be three?
And somebody might say,
well,
we can't afford it.
But can you afford all,
all the time it takes to hire,
(42:27):
train all,
all of those issues that arise the neglect,
not because they're neglecting,
but they're unable to get to opening yourself up to lawsuits.
Can you afford all of that?
Can you,
the answer is,
how about we really look to see what is the best practice and then fund it.
And if we can't do it,
(42:48):
then we have to reduce the caseload.
Like it's,
it's um it's interesting how we just continually shoot ourselves in the foot and there are answers,
but sometimes implementing those answers are difficult in the beginning.
But the benefits,
the fruitfulness it bears out in the end.
Well,
and that we had uh our,
(43:09):
our turnover was high in some areas but not in others.
And part of that was who was managing the facility.
Uh And that,
that made a lot of difference.
It,
it's just uh people who were there and the secret to,
to doing well in state government service or even federal is longevity if you can stay and move up,
(43:32):
take higher positions and that sort of thing because the joke was always,
what do you do for a living?
Oh,
I work for,
for the state.
Ok.
What's your other job?
Because so many people had second jobs in order to get by.
I did,
I worked in radio and it worked very well and they said we like you being on the air because people know you and you're a known person and your personality and you're representing the,
(43:52):
the agency and that,
you know,
our spokesperson and that helps.
So,
uh yeah,
so when you look into the future of work.
What do you think needs to happen so that all people are treated not only with dignity and respect but encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Well,
I said a while ago that the team concept might be an antiquated term,
(44:15):
but the concept is fine.
I,
I,
what I really don't like is when they say we're a family because there's some members of my own family.
I really don't care to be around.
Uh And I don't like the family concept team is,
is more what I'm like.
I think this is a real challenge that we're looking at because people approach things differently.
You know,
some people are motivated by money.
(44:36):
I used to have a coworker.
He'd get complimented and he'd say,
hey,
don't thank me.
Just pay me some people like recognition.
Some people like,
and I think that depends on the personality types and I teach a personality type course,
a mini course inside some of my other classes where you divide and there's several of these out there,
you divide the personalities into four quadrants and the,
(44:59):
the pluses and minuses of each one and that sort of thing.
Um People have changed,
workers have changed,
young people have changed.
Uh Right now with students and I'm sure that you've probably heard this before.
There seems to be a level of expectation of privilege of preference uh that they don't have to do very much.
(45:22):
So they get maximum benefit for minimum effort.
And I think what that takes is is an effective manager.
And when I say an effective manager,
somebody who can motivate somebody who can supervise somebody who can hold people accountable,
somebody that can involve workers in making decisions and things of that nature.
Because if you're just punching a time clock in and out,
(45:44):
you know,
uh one summer I,
I worked when I really needed money.
I worked midnight shift at a manufacturing company in my hometown that manufactured school buses towards school bus.
And I can tell you eight hours of pop riveting uh a metal strip down the sides of the buses gets old real fast.
(46:05):
Uh So you,
you've got to have some ways to motivate people and,
and I,
and I really believe this,
I don't think there are a lot of very good managers,
not near as many as there used to be.
Um And this is a problem in,
in media is that the salaries typically have been low because they've had people lined up to go work in radio and TV.
(46:25):
And that has changed and they're not having a hard time finding people because they don't pay very well.
They either offer more low benefits or no benefits.
And a lot of the managers are old school.
They're autocratic,
they're top driven.
It's my way of the highway.
You just show up and do what I tell you.
And there are other jobs out there outside of my immediate field that pay better,
(46:51):
have better benefits.
Uh,
maybe the work might not be as much as enjoyable,
but you can go to work as a prison guard in the state of Tennessee and make $50,000 the first year.
They're advertising for state troopers in Kentucky making about 70 75,000 the first year.
And then you're,
you're gonna ask a young person to graduate and go to work at a TV station for 30,000 a year.
(47:16):
You can work at mcdonald's for that.
So salaries in a lot of areas are gonna have to catch up.
I think the quality of management is gonna have to improve.
And I think if you improve the management and they're effective,
they will improve the workforce.
And then ultimately the productivity of the organization,
I absolutely agree when you have management,
(47:37):
paying attention to their people and so paying attention to fair compensation,
knowing what the market rates are seeing where you are paying attention to the needs like,
ok,
so you know,
going to a wedding of a family member or a good friend is important.
Uh This person has this going on in their life.
This person has this skill,
let's capitalize on it.
This person took a course in this.
(48:00):
How can we incorporate that all of these ways for people to be seen and known?
And as you said,
be decision makers because when we are decision makers,
that means we are trusted and then we get to invest.
So I 100% we need better management.
And how do we get that?
II,
I think it's with whoever's managing them.
(48:22):
Everybody all the way down the line needs continual coaching and development.
Because times change issues change,
the workforce is constantly changing.
And so what worked 20 years ago,
it's just not going to work as well and certainly not for everybody.
So we need to,
to be up on the time,
(48:43):
just like we're up on technology.
We're not using uh the laptops from 15 years ago.
We need to be up on what our current best practice is to really have a healthy work culture to set us up for future success.
If you want your organization to succeed,
the number one thing you need to do is to be concerned with your people.
(49:04):
If that is number two,
then you're not going to succeed.
You need number that needs to be on the top of your list because they're doing the work,
they're doing the production,
the manufacturing,
the selling,
they are your hands and feet and if they are treated well,
then that drives the whole enterprise.
I agree.
(49:25):
There's an old uh I'm old enough to remember Andy Griffith the first time,
but there's an old uh Andy Griffith show where Barney uh the incompetent most of the time deputy makes the statement.
He said something that Andy's been trying to teach me since I first went to work for him is that when you're a law man and you're dealing with people,
(49:46):
sometimes it's a bit better if you go not so much by the book,
but by the heart.
And,
and I,
I learned a long time ago that students in my class will forgive a lot of my issues if they think and know that I care about them.
And I try to convey that to my students that I care about them as people that I care about their success in the workplace.
(50:09):
But at the same time,
we've got to learn these things and we've got to do them,
we've got to do them well.
Uh that's why we enter a lot of competitions.
Uh you know,
with our radio station because I said if you aim at nothing,
you'll hit it,
aim to be the best,
aim to be the best.
And if we become a little short,
then at least we have an idea of where we are and where we need to go up or down.
(50:34):
And uh and I think that works and I think it's the same way in,
in any other workplace.
Those that,
I mean,
you've got to be a manager,
but you all got to be a human and we're all part of the human condition.
And I think what that requires is for a manager to understand that and realize that and then,
and deal with the employees accordingly.
Be fair,
(50:55):
be respectful,
but at the same time,
be human and,
and that requires management's hard work.
And I always tell people and I've been a manager if you have the right people in the right places doing the right things and motivated.
It's one of the best job.
It's so enjoyable.
It's a wonderful job experience.
(51:16):
But if you have the wrong people or you have a few duds here and there,
it can be an everloving nightmare to deal with and uh managers want everything to run smoothly,
but they have a part in that in order to facilitate that.
That's right.
Yes.
II I appreciate,
of course,
the work of good managers and bosses and nobody gets promoted and thinking I'm gonna really screw this up.
(51:43):
But it's unrealistic to think that we promote people and then don't train them continually and give them the tools to do well.
And so that is on us,
we need to pay attention to them because they're the ones,
especially middle management,
they're really the ones running all the other people,
right?
The above middle management.
They being all the strategic and,
you know,
c sweet D stuff and of course,
(52:05):
their management very much matters.
Um But the middle managers are really for the vast working population of the organization and so they really need and I think they get fall,
they fall through the cracks and we don't,
we rely on them in higher ed,
which is the world that I work in,
uh I've always said the worst possible job you can have as department chair because you're caught between the administration and a very honorary faculty.
(52:34):
And uh you go,
you give bad news to the faculty and they drop a complain,
you take that back to the administration.
It's a thankless job.
And I was asked one time,
do you have any aspirations to be a department chair?
And I said,
oh,
heck no,
I want no part of it.
It's,
it's,
it's a tough,
tough balancing act and I really admire people who do it and do it well.
Yeah,
that is,
(52:54):
yes,
I've been in academia for a very long time and that is a hard gig.
But when you see it done well and when you don't just like any management,
it's,
it's,
it's heartbreaking when it's not done well because it could be.
And,
and I think it's also really important not to scapegoat anybody.
If,
if something is happening at any rung of the organization,
(53:15):
somebody is letting it happen when somebody is not paying attention,
somebody is not doing their job.
And um the higher up you go,
the more responsibility you have to be paying attention to,
especially in Higher Ed where there's all these weird levels of power.
You know,
it is a very odd kind of institution.
(53:35):
Um But that's why I think our leaders in Higher Ed have an extra responsibility to pay attention to how secretaries are being treated how tenured folks are being treated,
how everybody up and down the line because the organization is for everybody.
That's right.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Well,
Richard,
thank you so much for your time.
(53:55):
What an enjoyable conversation.
Oh,
thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
I've,
I've enjoyed our,
our visit and our time together and,
uh,
it's,
uh,
I'm glad that see,
people are trying to address these things because they need to be addressed and conflict resolution is important and these,
you know,
I don't know that there's a company out there that doesn't have an area that they can improve on,
(54:18):
especially when you get into conflict situations between employees and management.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
All right.
Well,
take care and have a good day.
All right.
Thank you.
You too.
Thank you,
Richard for being on conflict managed.
I really enjoyed our conversation and hearing about your many careers and how you've navigated these industries.
Thank you for your time.
(54:38):
Conflict Managed is produced by third party Workplace conflict restoration Services and hosted by me,
Mary Brown.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
So come on back or peruse the catalog.
We have,
um,
91 episodes.
So lots of interesting people with hearing about their experiences and how they've dealt with conflict and,
(54:59):
and what has worked well for them in their organizations.
If you get a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work:
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do at work and start a conversation about how we have healthy work environments.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictrestoration.com.
(55:22):
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot and remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
Take care.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now,
get a sound side uptight,
Jack asking questions.
(00:25):
So,
welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we are joined by Doctor Richard Robinson.
Richard joined the Department of Communications at the University of Tennessee at Martin in 2001 where he teaches courses in broadcasting,
public relations and public speaking.
He also serves as the faculty advisor for the campus radio station.
(00:45):
WUTM 90.3 The Hawk during his tenure at UTM,
his broadcast students and the radio station have won close to 400 awards in state,
regional national and international competitions in 2012 and 2016.
WUTM was named the best college radio station in the nation by the intercollegiate broadcasting system.
(01:07):
The student operated station has been named the best college radio station in the South 10 times in the past 19 years including 2022 and 2023.
Richard received the UT national alumni,
outstanding teacher of the year award in 2007 and in 2020 has been named an outstanding educator by UT Martin twice in 2005 and in 2007,
(01:29):
he was also honored with the University of Tennessee Systems President's Award in the category of education.
He also works as a broadcast,
political and public relations,
media consultant.
Richard is an active member of the Trinity Presbyterian Church where he serves as an elder and sings on the choir.
He is also a trained ballroom dancer and classical violinist and is also a charter member and concert master of the TM community orchestra.
(01:56):
Good morning Richard.
And welcome to Conflict Managed. Good Morning Merry.
It's great to be with you today.
So happy to have you this morning here in Tennessee,
we've been facing many weather related challenges and um it's nice to get back to some semblance of normalcy.
Yes,
indeed.
Yes.
(02:16):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Start to 2024.
I would love to hear about the first job you ever had as a young man.
Well,
other than mowing lawns when I was about nine or 10,
my first job was as a newspaper carrier for my hometown local newspaper.
It was Monday through Saturday and it really taught me a lot about operating the business because what they did is you had to put up a $75 bond which you had to pay out of your,
(02:41):
your profits until you had that bond fully uh satisfied.
And then I had to do my own collections and pay,
go in and pay my bill.
You know,
every month,
turn in new subscriptions and as well as run the route and do other things.
So,
uh,
the paper printed Monday through Saturday six days a week.
So I was,
(03:02):
it,
it really taught me a lot about dealing with people and customers and responsibility for keeping up with money and paying your bills and that sort of thing.
I learned a lot.
Uh,
and I did that until I was 16 years old.
So that was my very first real job,
so to speak.
And were you in the morning before school?
No,
(03:22):
actually,
at that time and not as popular now,
it was an afternoon newspaper.
So immediately after school I was rushing down to the newspaper office to pick up my papers and then run my route.
So that is quite a lot to take on as a young person.
It was.
But my parents,
uh,
came through the depression and delayed getting married until my dad graduated from Mississippi State and they,
(03:49):
they believed in going to work and being involved in whatever you did.
So,
uh,
the only way that we were going to get out of going to church is if we were in the bed with a fever.
And I know there were a lot of times with my dad and my mother both really didn't feel well,
but they got up and went to work every day without fail,
you know,
unless they were really sick.
(04:10):
Or my mother had had surgery or something.
That was it.
So,
coming from that work ethic background,
that was what was model for me.
And that's,
uh,
I've tried to maintain that,
you know,
all throughout my work life.
So that is so not to be underestimated the importance of role models and,
and what we're raised with.
And so many times we take it for granted that what is normal to us because what was modeled day in day out,
(04:35):
year after year becomes the standard.
And so many of us are fortunate to find ourselves and families of origin that model,
that work ethic.
So it's not even a question.
Am I gonna go to work?
Am I going to do my work?
But it's just a taken for granted of course,
where other people who don't come from that background,
(04:55):
not that it's necessarily a struggle,
but it's more of a conscious decision.
This is what I'm going to do.
This is who I'm going to be in spite of what I was raised or the,
the examples that I saw.
Exactly.
I think that also spills into workplace etiquette.
I just saw an article about bosses wanting their new employees to go through workplace etiquette.
(05:19):
And I think it's interesting,
uh there certainly are something to generational differences in workplace today,
but it also has to do with expectation.
What is the expectation I was raised with is going to be a different expectation than maybe a younger generation or somebody else.
And so we're,
but we're all in the workplace together.
(05:40):
Oh,
yes.
And,
and we all have to work together whether we like it or not.
That's right.
Which is a part of being an adult.
We realize not everything that we like and everything is not about us.
Well,
and I had a parent tell me one time they said,
I just don't want my son to have it as rough as I did.
And I said,
a,
a and have to work as hard as I do.
(06:02):
And I said,
why not?
My dad always said hard work,
never hurt anybody.
Um,
not necessarily true,
but I mean,
I,
I get it.
I understand what he meant by that.
Yeah.
So what did you do after the paper route when I was 16?
I decided I wanted to.
Yeah,
because I've been doing it since I was 11.
I decided I wanted a real job.
(06:23):
So I went to work,
um,
I,
the last paper route I had was called the town route.
You walked it and you went around to all the businesses and delivered the papers.
And I got to be good friends with the theater manager.
And so my,
uh,
I was talking to my parents one night and I said,
I'd really like to get a job,
you know,
where you paid by the hour and that sort of thing.
And they said,
well,
why don't you go down to see Mr Brown at the movie theater because he,
(06:46):
uh,
he seems to like you.
So I went down and applied and he hired me and,
uh,
to tell you how long ago this was my first job was working as a fill in Usher or doorman at the downtown movie theater.
On Wednesday nights when the doorman had a one night off a week and on Saturday and Sunday afternoons,
my job was to sell tickets and concessions in the colored balcony.
(07:11):
This was 1969.
Even though the little rock integration crisis had already transpired in 1957 there were still some hangers on and this old theater manager wanted things to stay the same.
So I had to,
uh,
the African American customers could come up a,
um,
fire escape and come in and exit door.
(07:34):
And I sold the tickets there and they had limited concessions that I said there.
And I was also supposed to try to keep order,
uh,
inside the sectioned off area of the balcony,
which is where the African American population had to sit.
And I did that until a new manager came in about six months later because the older one retired and,
(07:54):
uh,
he closed the colored balcony,
so to speak.
And everybody in came in downstairs,
which was interesting because we,
some of the African Americans did not like it because it was cheaper if you went up to the balcony section for them.
But,
uh,
So I had an interesting experience and then I went on to become a,
a relief projectionist and I was an assistant manager and a manager and I ran movie theaters all through college and beyond till I was about 25.
(08:21):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Like as a young person,
uh,
you know,
1516,
you're networking just by showing up and doing good work and all the relationships that,
that we make just by,
by being a good worker,
by being conscientious,
by being interested in other persons.
We never know what that might turn into.
(08:42):
It might just turn into,
I feel better about my community because I know more about my community and I,
you know,
just I'm neighborly but sometimes those turn into opportunities.
Well,
my dad gave me some advice early on.
He said,
uh whenever you go to work,
don't just do what's required,
do what's necessary.
And I've never forgotten that.
(09:03):
I mean,
in other words,
don't just do the minimum to get you by,
do everything you can do more than you can.
Uh or do you think you can?
And it,
people will notice and that's been true for me.
Yes.
You know,
when people say,
but that's not in my job description.
I,
I wonder,
you know,
what is going on there.
And I think we do people a disservice by talking about the job they're in versus who they are as a person and the kind of work career they want to have and the quality of life they want to have.
(09:32):
And so when we think about simple job description,
it's very transactional instead of relational and the quality of life has to do with our relationships.
And this transactional commodified the person and then even who they're working with.
Well,
I had a news director when I worked in radio news,
(09:53):
which was later on after college.
But he always said there are two things I don't want to hear.
Number one,
I don't want to hear.
It's not my job.
Number two that I want to hear.
Uh that's the way we've always done it.
He said those two phrases do not exist in my world.
So,
and he meant it the duties as a sign,
(10:15):
the old state employees job description.
That's right.
And I think that's,
you know,
that's a part of,
you know,
being a team player,
but also a part of being a good manager is being very clear about,
well,
what is it you're supposed to be doing?
What is the bulk of the job you're supposed to be doing and not overburdening people unnecessarily,
there's many times that ends up in a team and means that there's not an even distribution of work,
(10:41):
even though people maybe are being paid the same or getting the same perks.
And all of us feel when we feel like we're not being cared for or we feel like there's an injustice or we feel like the manager isn't really being invested in caring and seeing what's going on that causes a lot of friction.
It does.
And,
uh,
a lot of,
(11:01):
some of that can be avoided.
There,
there are going to be times I think when there are going to be conflicts that,
uh,
are very difficult to resolve and sometimes they're resolved by someone getting relieved of their position or,
or being demoted or them leaving.
Or,
uh,
it could be that they actually do get resolved in the workplace,
but that requires a cooper staff and an effective manager.
(11:27):
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So,
when you went to college,
did you go for communication or did you know what you did you want,
did you know that you wanted to go into this field into radio and,
and teaching?
You know,
my problem in college was I like so many things.
I loved history.
I love math.
I love theater.
I love speech.
And back in those days it was either speech or journalism.
(11:48):
So I walked into my adviser's office,
uh,
I think the start of my junior year and I said,
Mr Duncan,
I think I'm a journalism major.
And he said,
ok,
well,
uh,
let's look at this.
Would you like to get the education hours as well?
So that you could always teach if you wanted to?
And I said,
oh,
no,
I come from a family of school teachers.
(12:08):
I know what the hours are.
I know.
What the pay is.
I will never teach.
So,
just forget that I,
I'm not doing it.
And that's when,
with one of the first times when I learned later on,
you never say never because that's exactly what I wound up doing later on.
That's right.
So,
tell us what happened.
What is sort of your,
the arc of your,
your career after college.
(12:31):
After college,
I was in the movie theater business and then I left and went to work at a radio station in,
uh,
Pine Bluff.
And I'm not gonna tell you all the radio stations I work for,
there's been several,
but this was KCL,
a razorback country.
And,
uh,
I,
I did that for three years and then,
(12:51):
uh,
went back into the movie theater business and moved to a small town called Arkadelphia for a while.
And then,
uh,
went to Little Rock and worked at the station.
There,
went to Hot Springs and worked at the station there,
went back to Arkadelphia and went to work in radio there.
I was a news reporter,
a news anchor was a morning host.
(13:14):
Uh,
I did a lot of,
of different things during my career,
which spanned about 19 years I think.
And,
uh,
then I guess about 1987 it was,
I went to work for a state agency outside of Arkadelphia that was,
uh,
a,
a residential and a training facility for the intellectually challenged.
(13:35):
It was residential training and had a special aid component to it at that time.
And uh had 100 and 60 developmentally disabled clients that lived there and trained there and worked there and we had a lot of different programs.
So I was the pr director and I did that for 14 years.
Uh but I still worked in radio part time.
(13:55):
Uh I did mornings for a while and then I,
I did other things and I would anchor election coverage.
They always had me do that and things of that nature.
And then I decided I wanted to,
I,
I taught a guest lectured at a couple of classes at a local university and there were two in the town that I lived in and I decided that I would just,
you know,
(14:16):
I want to get a master's so I could teach.
And I,
I naively thought if I get my master's,
they'll come knocking at my door.
I,
I went back to school at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock commuted back and forth part time for three years.
Got my master's didn't get a job immediately.
Got out in 95 and 97 Henderson State University can call in and say we need somebody to advise the radio station.
(14:40):
We need somebody to uh teach a couple of classes,
broadcast journalism,
adjunct.
So I did that.
And uh for a year and at the same time I took on a position at it was called Wash Technical college.
It's now called College of the Wash was 20 miles away in a town called Melbourne.
(15:00):
I was teaching a night class in public speaking,
oral communication.
And after a year,
Henderson was so impressed with my work.
They raised my pay from $1500 per three hour class to $1600 for three hour class.
Uh,
but they,
they wanted me to get a doctorate and there was no place around to get a doctorate other than a doctorate in education.
(15:22):
So,
uh,
I applied for the educational doctorate program at Ualr in Little Rock and I was accepted.
But they kept telling me,
you know,
you need a phd,
you know,
there's a lot of snobbery in academia.
So,
uh,
I,
I taught for two more years,
total of four years and started looking around.
And in 2000,
I got a job offer to go to a university in Texas did not have a good vibe to it.
(15:47):
And my wife had her own business and we weren't really prepared to make that drastic move and there was still no doctoral program close.
Even though this was just outside of Dallas,
I turned it down.
And the next year,
a friend of mine called me and said,
hey,
there's a place called UT Martin that's looking for a job,
looking for a professor.
That sounds just like you.
(16:07):
And my first reaction was ok.
Where is Martin?
I heard of it,
but I don't know where it was.
Once I found out where it was,
I had applied to previously to Memphis University of Memphis and they accepted me and into their doctoral program.
So I thought this would be great.
I could come here,
I could teach and I could get my doctorate.
I moved up,
we moved here in 01 and,
(16:28):
uh I went to Memphis for a year and Gerald Ogg who was the dean at the time said you're not gonna like a program,
it's rhetoric or com and you're a mass com guy,
you need to go to like,
si U Carbondale.
So I transferred my hours to Carbondale and took me about six more years.
But I got my doctorate and I've stayed here the entire time and it's,
it's worked out very well for me.
I mean,
(16:48):
Ut Martin has been very good to me.
What an interesting career.
I mean,
it sounds like you've had three or four careers in the,
in the span of your career,
which I am and,
and I'm,
I'm not ashamed to admit that I am 71 right now.
He's 72 in September.
So,
but when I hear about all of your different experiences,
(17:09):
they all seem very tied together even from the paper route.
You know,
this is this external public facing,
communicating with individuals and self starting,
you know,
being in radio,
I'm sure you did investigations and just being on air and communicating in that in that sort of way.
(17:31):
If you see this thread that goes all the way through,
even through the education.
Isn't that interesting how it all sort of ties together.
And my dad who was quite the philosopher and a man of few words ordinarily,
but he'd say,
hey,
you're going to be fine because God takes care of drunks and fools.
(17:53):
Oh,
goodness.
So,
when you think about all the different places that you've worked and the people that you've worked with,
what strikes you as the best experience you had with like a boss or a manager.
And what was so good about it?
The,
the best experience that I've had in the workplace has been when I worked for the state agency.
And initially it was not that great and the reason it wasn't that great,
(18:19):
it was I was the pr director and uh the lead administrator who was called the superintendent uh was pleaded guilty to embezzlement charges and was went to state prison.
But then we brought in,
I brought in a young woman and she was my age,
but she had worked there and then moved to another smaller facility and run in it.
(18:41):
She had run it and um as the superintendent and then came back and when she came back,
that's when I learned a whole lot about a lot of things.
She was very rigid in following rules and policies and procedures,
but she was very forgiving in a way as well.
And one of the things she did that I really liked was if,
(19:01):
you know,
if you look at a lot of personnel files with companies,
you'll find things that have to be there because of record and you went through this training or you had this in service or this disciplinary action,
she wrote what we referred to as good notes and other people could do it too.
So she would write something like you did a really good job with the organizational chart on desktop publishing.
(19:23):
I know that you worked hard on that or I particularly like like this last issue of the newsletter that you put out staff,
I liked your editorial,
you know,
so she put good notes and at,
at the end of the review period and we were reviewed twice a year,
six months,
which was a tertiary not permanent record,
but she could identify areas that you needed to work on six months and then the year you had the annual review and sometimes my reviews would be half an inch thick because of all the,
(19:52):
the good notes and all the other things.
So that was very uh very positive and motivating thing for me.
And one of the things that uh she would do is if you did something wrong,
she would let you know it.
And she uh at one of my annual reviews,
she said,
OK,
(20:12):
I gave you this assignment to get this done.
And you haven't done it yet and I really want to get this done.
And so what I would like for you to do is send me a monthly report detailing your progress on this project until it's completed.
And I said,
OK,
I understand that.
But uh you have to understand that,
(20:33):
you know,
for lack of anybody else,
I'm the tech guy,
people have a computer problem.
I get called on people ask me to do this,
write this,
do this.
And,
you know,
here's some examples and I showed her and she said,
OK,
I understand that.
So here's what we're going to do since you work directly under my supervision.
If somebody comes to you and wants you to do something,
(20:56):
it's gonna take any amount of time at all,
you send them to me and I will tell you if you need to do it or not and I may send them to somebody else or I might tell them he's too busy.
He can't do it right now.
So I'll tell them that.
And uh if I decide you need to do what they're asking you to do,
I will give you some extra time to finish the projects that you're working on.
(21:17):
And if you need me to,
I'll prioritize it for you.
What I want done.
Well,
I can tell you that after doing monthly reports for about three months,
I finished that project because I wanted it off my back and I didn't want to have to write another monthly report.
But so while she was critical when she needed to be,
and she was positive when she needed to be overall,
(21:37):
she was fair.
And I think that's what a lot of employees are looking for is fairness.
Now,
some employees want preference.
You know,
they want people to let them slide and do all sorts of things.
And there are some managers that will let that happen.
But uh in,
in the workplace,
you have to motivate employees.
And I think if you're gonna be an effective manager,
you have to give feedback,
(21:59):
both bad and good in order to let people know where they stand.
So that when the time comes,
if you,
they say we're going to part company,
you've got a track record,
you've got a history and you know why you're being let go or you know,
that you've done a good job.
I absolutely love that.
I love the good notes in your file.
(22:19):
And when I think about fairness,
sometimes people think fairness is,
is 5050.
So you need the praise and the criticism.
But I think if you're really talking about fairness,
if somebody is coming into work and doing their job and generally doing a good job,
the actual praise is going to be much higher.
I mean,
it's probably going to be closer to 80 to 90% of the stuff you're doing right or higher.
(22:44):
And so to be noticed,
what more do we want than to be recognized?
And I think there's an old mentality that says,
uh,
you get recognized with a paycheck and benefits.
That's your recognition.
Why am I going to recognize you for doing your job?
And I think that in attitude treats us like computers and doesn't understand what a human person needs and that we are seeking validation and we're always looking at our environment and as you said,
(23:13):
the psychological benefit of being noticed,
it's encouraging,
it helps us to see.
I'm on the right track and I'm going to do more of that,
right?
We want positive reinforcement and,
but also knowing that you are going to be told the truth,
right?
So clarity is kindness.
So you can also trust this uh boss that if there isn't something going right?
(23:35):
You've got this open communication,
you have this goodwill,
you can trust this person,
they have your back because they do see what you're doing and you're like,
oh,
ok,
I need to do that.
But even more than that,
she made a way for you.
She just didn't say I don't want to hear it.
Get it done.
You said,
well,
this is,
this is part of the problem.
She's like,
oh,
ok,
there's a problem.
Let's let me help you solve that problem so that you can get it done,
(23:59):
right?
What a wonderful example.
Yeah.
Thank you.
That's,
that's uh and,
and we still stay in touch today even though she is my age,
she retired several years ago.
But she's,
uh,
she was one of probably the best example and the most effective manager that I've ever worked for.
Wow,
she sounds on top of it.
That's amazing.
(24:20):
You know,
it is interesting.
You know,
some of us want preferential treatment and I suppose we all have these certain sorts of basic psychological needs for belonging to be cared for,
to.
But this letting people slide,
it's such a temporary bandage.
But that means the culture is suffering because when I see somebody else sliding,
(24:42):
I immediately think this is not a fair culture.
I don't understand why they are quote unquote,
getting away with it,
but we're supposed to be a bunch of adults,
right?
And so getting away with it sounds more,
it's pretty childish.
And so if you have AAA manager,
that is the bar is the same for everyone because we're all employees here.
It doesn't mean we're doing the same work because we have different jobs.
(25:03):
We have different needs at different times.
That's the human factor.
But if you have that goodwill and trust towards your boss,
then you don't need to be looking at what Sally or Jim are doing,
you're doing what you're doing and you trust that it's being fairly distributed and I'm sure if you had a question,
you'd be able to talk to her about it.
Yeah.
And uh I know that some of the people would complain about this one particular supervisor because,
(25:28):
you know,
she expected you to be there at,
um,
your time and they put in time clocks at one point because at another facility,
some people had said they weren't paid for hours that they worked and they had no record of it.
So they,
they put in time clocks and I would get into trouble because I was supposed to be at work at nine o'clock.
(25:48):
And I would get there,
you know,
8830 I'd forget about the time and then I'd realize it was a minute passed.
And there have been a number of times I get to the time clock which was all the way around the building and punch in just as it went nine o'clock.
And,
but there were a few times that I would go in,
I'd say,
ok,
I was late,
(26:09):
minute late.
I ripped myself up.
She said you were here before your work time.
And I said,
I know,
but I did forgot.
She said,
Richard buy you an alarm clock and set it for five minutes before.
And then when it goes off,
go clock in,
I'm tired of signing these write up forms.
You're gonna get in trouble.
Ok.
Ok.
So I,
I did,
you know,
and,
uh,
but I had a employee tell me one time,
(26:30):
you know,
that time clock is gonna get me fired.
I said,
no,
no,
no.
The time clock.
Is gonna keep time and it's gonna be accurate.
You don't find,
you don't get here on time.
That's,
that's not the time clock problem.
So,
um,
and the people would say,
well,
she comes in after,
you know,
she'll come in at 930 I said yes,
but she also got a call at 3 a.m. over an instant report.
(26:52):
And she lived on the campus in a,
in a home that was provided for her.
I said,
you know,
so you don't know if she leaves early,
if she's on annual leave or sick leave or you don't know.
So everybody tend to their own business and don't worry about everyone else.
And that,
that is a problem sometimes in the workplace.
It absolutely is.
And I think I do think it genuinely stems from a sense that we want,
(27:16):
we want justice.
And when we feel like when there's not transparency and when we don't have good relationships and trust is broken then that those kinds of looking over the fence and you know,
even micromanaging our colleagues or of course,
gossip,
these are all signs that there's something,
something is breaking down in the culture.
(27:37):
It could be somebody who is hired in who was stirring the pot.
It could be that somebody is just not attending to the culture because you could have a quick conversation with somebody and say,
hey,
if you have a question about what's going on,
you're welcome to do you really want to know what I do.
Right.
You know,
these are the kinds of things I do and we do have a basic desire to know in general what's going around uh us and what other people's roles are.
(28:04):
And so I think there's that,
that,
that genuine,
wanting to know and not in a negative way,
like I'm nosy but just we want to know what's going on so we can make sense of what we see and we don't like hypocrisy.
So if people say one thing and do another and if I don't trust them for some particular reason,
(28:24):
it's hard for me to extend goodwill.
So I think the more we articulate and communicate a lot that we can alleviate and,
and,
and cut stuff off at the knee,
especially if you hear it,
deal with it so we can move on.
Well,
and that is a problem with some supervisors.
I think Mary is that sometimes they are oblivious to what's going on or they ignore what's going on until you have a real problem.
(28:47):
I mean that that old festering sore in the workplace is,
is gonna be a real problem and sometimes it's avoidance,
the advisor supervisor doesn't want to deal with it,
but when they don't,
then it permeates through the entire staff much of the time.
Well,
so and so is able to do this,
they're getting away with this.
Why is this happening?
And it really hurts the morale,
(29:08):
I think of,
of all of the employees ultimately.
Now I know my vision on this is a little bit skewed because I get called in when the culture in an organization isn't dealing with conflict early,
often swiftly and justly,
and they don't have um really robust mechanisms in order to deal with employee concerns and conflicts.
But it does seem to be the default in most organizations and you have a new person come in and guess what?
(29:32):
They inherited the 23 years past and the five or 10 years past that never got dealt with.
And if you have the same employees there and the conflicts don't get dealt with,
you're not just dealing with what happened this week,
you're having a conversation about maybe something you don't know that happened three years ago.
But for that employee,
it's still this happened to them or this is happening to them or they're treated this way and it feels like nobody will do anything about it.
(30:02):
And that just is such a burden on productivity in the pola and it's such a personal burden when you go to an organization or a job,
it's hard to do your best when you feel like again,
I'm not cared for and they won't do the hard thing.
So why should I have to do the hard things?
You know,
I have read that most people typically don't leave a job over for money.
(30:26):
I mean,
sometimes they do certainly.
But,
but I think most of the time people leave because they feel like they're being ignored,
they feel like they're being passed over.
They feel like they're not appreciated.
They feel like what they do doesn't have any value to the company and dissatisfaction I think is a big part of why people leave their jobs.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
(30:46):
That is.
And it's,
uh,
it's really sad because you could have somebody who thinks really well of somebody that reports to them but they don't articulate it.
They,
they haven't been trained so many middle management they got there because they're good at what they do.
Not because they necessarily have those people skills of how to manage a group.
But then we're mad at them because they know how to work the,
(31:09):
maybe the financial system or whatever system,
but they weren't trained on.
How do you deal with these conflicts that come up?
How do you deal with people?
Because management is the people business.
How do you invest in your people in this really economic way because it saves time in the long run and you,
everybody flourishes when you have managers who know how to really manage people.
(31:34):
Yes.
And in the newsrooms where I've worked and I did work for a time at the Arkansas Radio Network.
Mr Stringer for many years,
the,
the news director would always say our image,
our credibility as a media outlet depends upon each one of you and if somebody does something bad or wrong,
it impugns the dignity and the credibility of our entire operation.
(31:57):
And I am responsible for each one of you,
which means I have to trust my reporters and I hate trusting anybody but I have to.
And so if you mess up,
I'm gonna tell you about it clearly.
And he did,
you know,
uh,
newsrooms used to be really autocratic,
top down management that's changed a little bit.
(32:19):
The best newsrooms I've worked in have been the ones that sort of had.
And this is an antiquated term,
I think.
But team based concept,
you know,
let's all pull together,
we're all steering the ship,
we're all pointing the same direction.
If we're not,
we got a problem.
And so,
uh I'll never forget my first job as a news reporter in the news director's office in the radio station.
(32:39):
He had a sign up that said company rules.
Rule number one,
news director is always right.
Rule number two,
if the news director is ever wrong,
refer back to rule number one.
Well,
I sure hope the,
um the idea of a robust team isn't antiquated.
And in fact,
collaboration is the name of the game.
(33:00):
If you want to work smarter,
if you want to work better,
if you want to have employee retain and engagement,
if you really want to take A B at the benefit of the diversity of experience and ideas,
then we really need to be able to collaborate.
That means we need to know who it is that we're working with and what their strengths are and who I can go to for this and who can rely on me for that.
(33:22):
And we really are better together,
but only if we have a functioning team that has developed a level of trust and you get that through experience and through leadership because the idea is not to get rid of disagreement.
Absolutely not.
That disagreement is good.
Conflict is good.
It's just when it's unmanaged.
So how do we manage it well?
(33:44):
And,
and I've uh amateur musician playing in an orchestra.
And uh my father-in-law was a broadcast engineer for many years and worked on circuits and PC boards and all these sorts of things.
And he asked me at the time,
he said,
why do you like playing in an orchestra?
And I said,
it's sort of like an electronic circuit,
(34:06):
you know,
if,
if one part breaks down or play something incorrectly,
it impacts the entire performance.
So everything that everybody does,
even if it's counting measures of rest is important because you've got to do the right thing at the right time when the conductor wants it.
And I think Steve Jobs one time mentioned that,
you know,
Steve Jobs was a pretty tough guy to work for.
(34:30):
Um But he,
and he wasn't an engineer and he never wrote a line of code or anything else,
but he always said I am a conductor and I direct all of the different areas of the operation.
He did some great things,
but like I said,
he was,
he was pretty tough to work for.
And the joke was if you got on the elevator with him at Apple,
(34:51):
you wanted to get off uh before the door closed because on the way up to your floor,
he would say,
what is it you do for Apple Computer?
And why is it important to the success of the company?
And if you couldn't answer him to his satisfaction,
you'd be getting off at your floor to go clean out your desk because he would fire you.
So uh he was still successful,
but I think he left a lot of former employees in his wake.
(35:15):
Yeah,
I love the orchestra idea because it's so true and we feel that synchronicity when we're really firing on all cylinders with others and,
and what comes out of it,
right?
That the music that you can play by yourself,
it's lovely,
but it is one note in a way.
But when you,
the more voices,
the more that you pull into it and then you all feel that together and when you're in sync,
(35:39):
what happens is beautiful.
And we also know that one person can come into an organization and elevate everyone,
they come in and they're on fire and they have these ideas and they're really listening to you and they want to know about you and it's just feels so encouraging and we've also had the experience of the opposite.
One person can come in and just,
(36:02):
you know,
pull everything down by their attitude,
by their work ethic,
by their negativity,
by their whatever.
And so,
you know,
there,
there,
it's the,
they're interesting dynamics in teams and organizations and,
and they are fluid because people come in and go out,
people go through different experiences.
(36:23):
That's why it's very important to have people mindfully and intentionally paying attention to what's going on so that we can continue to move forward.
And when there are hiccups and when somebody hasn't,
isn't playing the right notes or counting the rest that we address it so that chaos doesn't ensue where things don't unravel.
Yes,
(36:43):
definitely.
So,
can you tell us about uh a conflict that you had,
uh that was difficult for you and what was difficult and how did you resolve it?
I could give you a couple of examples.
I think one of the,
the questions that you had,
what's your worst job,
boss or work experience?
Uh I have been working in radio for a while and I was gonna be getting married.
(37:05):
Uh This is in 1978 and so I decided I would leave radio and I was gonna take the first job that paid more money.
So the first job that came along that paid more money and actually was quite a bit more money was a job as a management trainee at Taco Bell.
And it was this experience that led me to know and understand that fast food service was not going to be my life's work.
(37:29):
I interviewed with the district manager and he said,
ok,
you'll start on this date.
And I said that's fine.
I have a good friend who's getting married that first Saturday.
And if possible,
I would like to have that Saturday off so I could attend the wedding.
And he said,
shouldn't be a problem,
we can work that out with your schedule.
(37:50):
Great.
So,
uh,
on that Friday,
that first Friday,
he came into the restaurant,
he said,
the Richard,
uh,
I need you to work tomorrow.
And I said,
well,
we had already discussed this,
that I was going to be off because I was going to a friend's wedding.
And he said,
well,
um,
you need to decide what's more important,
(38:12):
going to the wedding event or working here.
If you go,
if you want to work here,
then you do what we tell you when we tell you to do it.
And I'll see you here at 6 a.m. tomorrow.
So when I was not happy and I called my friend,
I said,
I can't do it.
I went in at 6 a.m. the next day and he's handed me a big push broom and he said,
(38:34):
sweep the parking lot and this was in February.
He said,
I want the parking lot clean.
And I just decided,
then,
you know,
I can't trust this guy.
I mean,
he's,
we agreed on something.
He didn't hold up his end of the bargain.
He was.
And,
and I can tell you that they hired six of us as trainees.
And within a week,
(38:57):
two of them were gone.
Third week,
another one was gone.
After four weeks,
I turned in my notice to go back to work into radio in Pine Bluff,
Arkansas.
And I was gone.
And within another two weeks,
the other two had left,
I got a call from the regional office in San Antonio Taco Bell and said,
we would really like to have an exit interview with you.
(39:18):
If you don't mind,
they want to know what the issues were.
And I told them and they said,
well,
we're trying to figure out why we can't retain managers and managers,
trainees in our company in our district because uh last year,
the turnover rate of in management at Taco Bell's in a six state area was 100 and 80%.
(39:40):
Wow.
And I said,
you know,
if I had those kinds of problems,
I believe I would be on the phone trying to figure out what's going on too.
But I said the managers are basically schedulers.
They don't have any say so about running the restaurant much other than by policy.
There's no,
uh,
nothing in regard to uh marketing or promotions or working with the community of that.
(40:01):
And all,
all of that was pictured to be the case when I was hired.
And it's not the case.
I mean,
you're basically a glorified cook and supervisor of personnel and that's it.
So that was my worst experience.
That's pretty intense.
It was,
it was very intense.
And I remember they told me when I quit,
(40:22):
I turned and gave two weeks notice and they said there's no need.
You're not gonna be in train anymore.
So just go ahead and leave and that was fine.
But uh they said now you realize we have a company policy.
Once you work for Taco Bell and you leave,
you can't come back to work here again.
And I said,
no problem.
I,
I don't believe I'll be back.
So,
and I,
(40:42):
and I didn't,
but they later changed that rule because,
you know,
you got to have employees.
Yeah,
I mean,
trust is the base of a basis of all relationships.
If you don't trust,
if you fundamentally don't trust the organization that you're working for.
If you don't trust your,
your colleagues or boss,
you know,
the,
the trust is really broken.
(41:02):
If you make,
if you stay there,
you're probably doing what we call today.
Quiet quitting,
you're going to do the bare minimum,
you're going to be looking out for yourself.
You're going to spend time protecting yourself because you're staying there probably because you need to pay your mortgage.
Right.
You're staying there because you don't see the other options,
(41:23):
but you're out,
you're out.
And that's,
to me that's one of the worst work experiences you can have is to the point where,
you know what heck with it.
I'm gonna do the bare minimum and that's it.
I'm gonna come in when I have to,
I'm gonna leave as soon as I can and they can all jump in the lake as far as I'm concerned.
I hate my supervisor.
I don't like my work experience.
(41:44):
My workload is ridiculous.
All those kinds of things.
And it's that way in a lot of different businesses we had,
uh,
at the facility where I worked in the state agency,
we had,
uh,
three social workers for 100 and 60 people.
That's an impossible case load.
And that,
that's why social workers at the state level.
(42:04):
They churn through them right and left.
They get some experience.
They go on and they do something else.
They go back to graduate school or they hang out a shingle and,
you know,
it's,
uh,
it can be a problem.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And you know,
when you think about,
well,
why would there only be three?
And somebody might say,
well,
we can't afford it.
But can you afford all,
all the time it takes to hire,
(42:27):
train all,
all of those issues that arise the neglect,
not because they're neglecting,
but they're unable to get to opening yourself up to lawsuits.
Can you afford all of that?
Can you,
the answer is,
how about we really look to see what is the best practice and then fund it.
And if we can't do it,
(42:48):
then we have to reduce the caseload.
Like it's,
it's um it's interesting how we just continually shoot ourselves in the foot and there are answers,
but sometimes implementing those answers are difficult in the beginning.
But the benefits,
the fruitfulness it bears out in the end.
Well,
and that we had uh our,
(43:09):
our turnover was high in some areas but not in others.
And part of that was who was managing the facility.
Uh And that,
that made a lot of difference.
It,
it's just uh people who were there and the secret to,
to doing well in state government service or even federal is longevity if you can stay and move up,
(43:32):
take higher positions and that sort of thing because the joke was always,
what do you do for a living?
Oh,
I work for,
for the state.
Ok.
What's your other job?
Because so many people had second jobs in order to get by.
I did,
I worked in radio and it worked very well and they said we like you being on the air because people know you and you're a known person and your personality and you're representing the,
(43:52):
the agency and that,
you know,
our spokesperson and that helps.
So,
uh yeah,
so when you look into the future of work.
What do you think needs to happen so that all people are treated not only with dignity and respect but encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Well,
I said a while ago that the team concept might be an antiquated term,
(44:15):
but the concept is fine.
I,
I,
what I really don't like is when they say we're a family because there's some members of my own family.
I really don't care to be around.
Uh And I don't like the family concept team is,
is more what I'm like.
I think this is a real challenge that we're looking at because people approach things differently.
You know,
some people are motivated by money.
(44:36):
I used to have a coworker.
He'd get complimented and he'd say,
hey,
don't thank me.
Just pay me some people like recognition.
Some people like,
and I think that depends on the personality types and I teach a personality type course,
a mini course inside some of my other classes where you divide and there's several of these out there,
you divide the personalities into four quadrants and the,
(44:59):
the pluses and minuses of each one and that sort of thing.
Um People have changed,
workers have changed,
young people have changed.
Uh Right now with students and I'm sure that you've probably heard this before.
There seems to be a level of expectation of privilege of preference uh that they don't have to do very much.
(45:22):
So they get maximum benefit for minimum effort.
And I think what that takes is is an effective manager.
And when I say an effective manager,
somebody who can motivate somebody who can supervise somebody who can hold people accountable,
somebody that can involve workers in making decisions and things of that nature.
Because if you're just punching a time clock in and out,
(45:44):
you know,
uh one summer I,
I worked when I really needed money.
I worked midnight shift at a manufacturing company in my hometown that manufactured school buses towards school bus.
And I can tell you eight hours of pop riveting uh a metal strip down the sides of the buses gets old real fast.
(46:05):
Uh So you,
you've got to have some ways to motivate people and,
and I,
and I really believe this,
I don't think there are a lot of very good managers,
not near as many as there used to be.
Um And this is a problem in,
in media is that the salaries typically have been low because they've had people lined up to go work in radio and TV.
(46:25):
And that has changed and they're not having a hard time finding people because they don't pay very well.
They either offer more low benefits or no benefits.
And a lot of the managers are old school.
They're autocratic,
they're top driven.
It's my way of the highway.
You just show up and do what I tell you.
And there are other jobs out there outside of my immediate field that pay better,
(46:51):
have better benefits.
Uh,
maybe the work might not be as much as enjoyable,
but you can go to work as a prison guard in the state of Tennessee and make $50,000 the first year.
They're advertising for state troopers in Kentucky making about 70 75,000 the first year.
And then you're,
you're gonna ask a young person to graduate and go to work at a TV station for 30,000 a year.
(47:16):
You can work at mcdonald's for that.
So salaries in a lot of areas are gonna have to catch up.
I think the quality of management is gonna have to improve.
And I think if you improve the management and they're effective,
they will improve the workforce.
And then ultimately the productivity of the organization,
I absolutely agree when you have management,
(47:37):
paying attention to their people and so paying attention to fair compensation,
knowing what the market rates are seeing where you are paying attention to the needs like,
ok,
so you know,
going to a wedding of a family member or a good friend is important.
Uh This person has this going on in their life.
This person has this skill,
let's capitalize on it.
This person took a course in this.
(48:00):
How can we incorporate that all of these ways for people to be seen and known?
And as you said,
be decision makers because when we are decision makers,
that means we are trusted and then we get to invest.
So I 100% we need better management.
And how do we get that?
II,
I think it's with whoever's managing them.
(48:22):
Everybody all the way down the line needs continual coaching and development.
Because times change issues change,
the workforce is constantly changing.
And so what worked 20 years ago,
it's just not going to work as well and certainly not for everybody.
So we need to,
to be up on the time,
(48:43):
just like we're up on technology.
We're not using uh the laptops from 15 years ago.
We need to be up on what our current best practice is to really have a healthy work culture to set us up for future success.
If you want your organization to succeed,
the number one thing you need to do is to be concerned with your people.
(49:04):
If that is number two,
then you're not going to succeed.
You need number that needs to be on the top of your list because they're doing the work,
they're doing the production,
the manufacturing,
the selling,
they are your hands and feet and if they are treated well,
then that drives the whole enterprise.
I agree.
(49:25):
There's an old uh I'm old enough to remember Andy Griffith the first time,
but there's an old uh Andy Griffith show where Barney uh the incompetent most of the time deputy makes the statement.
He said something that Andy's been trying to teach me since I first went to work for him is that when you're a law man and you're dealing with people,
(49:46):
sometimes it's a bit better if you go not so much by the book,
but by the heart.
And,
and I,
I learned a long time ago that students in my class will forgive a lot of my issues if they think and know that I care about them.
And I try to convey that to my students that I care about them as people that I care about their success in the workplace.
(50:09):
But at the same time,
we've got to learn these things and we've got to do them,
we've got to do them well.
Uh that's why we enter a lot of competitions.
Uh you know,
with our radio station because I said if you aim at nothing,
you'll hit it,
aim to be the best,
aim to be the best.
And if we become a little short,
then at least we have an idea of where we are and where we need to go up or down.
(50:34):
And uh and I think that works and I think it's the same way in,
in any other workplace.
Those that,
I mean,
you've got to be a manager,
but you all got to be a human and we're all part of the human condition.
And I think what that requires is for a manager to understand that and realize that and then,
and deal with the employees accordingly.
Be fair,
(50:55):
be respectful,
but at the same time,
be human and,
and that requires management's hard work.
And I always tell people and I've been a manager if you have the right people in the right places doing the right things and motivated.
It's one of the best job.
It's so enjoyable.
It's a wonderful job experience.
(51:16):
But if you have the wrong people or you have a few duds here and there,
it can be an everloving nightmare to deal with and uh managers want everything to run smoothly,
but they have a part in that in order to facilitate that.
That's right.
Yes.
II I appreciate,
of course,
the work of good managers and bosses and nobody gets promoted and thinking I'm gonna really screw this up.
(51:43):
But it's unrealistic to think that we promote people and then don't train them continually and give them the tools to do well.
And so that is on us,
we need to pay attention to them because they're the ones,
especially middle management,
they're really the ones running all the other people,
right?
The above middle management.
They being all the strategic and,
you know,
c sweet D stuff and of course,
(52:05):
their management very much matters.
Um But the middle managers are really for the vast working population of the organization and so they really need and I think they get fall,
they fall through the cracks and we don't,
we rely on them in higher ed,
which is the world that I work in,
uh I've always said the worst possible job you can have as department chair because you're caught between the administration and a very honorary faculty.
(52:34):
And uh you go,
you give bad news to the faculty and they drop a complain,
you take that back to the administration.
It's a thankless job.
And I was asked one time,
do you have any aspirations to be a department chair?
And I said,
oh,
heck no,
I want no part of it.
It's,
it's,
it's a tough,
tough balancing act and I really admire people who do it and do it well.
Yeah,
that is,
(52:54):
yes,
I've been in academia for a very long time and that is a hard gig.
But when you see it done well and when you don't just like any management,
it's,
it's,
it's heartbreaking when it's not done well because it could be.
And,
and I think it's also really important not to scapegoat anybody.
If,
if something is happening at any rung of the organization,
(53:15):
somebody is letting it happen when somebody is not paying attention,
somebody is not doing their job.
And um the higher up you go,
the more responsibility you have to be paying attention to,
especially in Higher Ed where there's all these weird levels of power.
You know,
it is a very odd kind of institution.
(53:35):
Um But that's why I think our leaders in Higher Ed have an extra responsibility to pay attention to how secretaries are being treated how tenured folks are being treated,
how everybody up and down the line because the organization is for everybody.
That's right.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Well,
Richard,
thank you so much for your time.
(53:55):
What an enjoyable conversation.
Oh,
thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
I've,
I've enjoyed our,
our visit and our time together and,
uh,
it's,
uh,
I'm glad that see,
people are trying to address these things because they need to be addressed and conflict resolution is important and these,
you know,
I don't know that there's a company out there that doesn't have an area that they can improve on,
(54:18):
especially when you get into conflict situations between employees and management.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
All right.
Well,
take care and have a good day.
All right.
Thank you.
You too.
Thank you,
Richard for being on conflict managed.
I really enjoyed our conversation and hearing about your many careers and how you've navigated these industries.
Thank you for your time.
(54:38):
Conflict Managed is produced by third party Workplace conflict restoration Services and hosted by me,
Mary Brown.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
So come on back or peruse the catalog.
We have,
um,
91 episodes.
So lots of interesting people with hearing about their experiences and how they've dealt with conflict and,
(54:59):
and what has worked well for them in their organizations.
If you get a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work:
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do at work and start a conversation about how we have healthy work environments.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictrestoration.com.
(55:22):
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot and remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
Take care.
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