February 13, 2024 • 49 mins
🎙️ This week on Conflict Managed we are joined by Zeina Habib, leadership coach and trainer, specializing in assisting result-oriented tech professionals.
Dive deep with us into the realms of international cultural change and personal growth. Get ready for a compelling exploration of authenticity in a global context as we discuss:
🌐 Preparing and planning to meet the challenges of moving abroad.
🛤️ Embracing challenges as opportunities for personal and professional development.
📈 Recognizing the imperfection and boundaries of colleagues.
🚀 Growing capacity to handle challenging emotions for leadership.
🔄 Managing fear and discomfort for growth opportunities.
🎭 Using movement, body awareness, and creative expression to connect with and process emotions.
Zeina Habib focuses on empowering her clients to gain confidence, communicate effectively, and connect deeply with others to bring their ideas to life.
Utilizing a distinctive body-mind coaching approach, she integrates her international experience from living in three countries, her in-depth coaching skills, and her enthusiasm for dancing and movement.
Additionally, Zeina is a contributing author to the 'She is Remarkable' book initiative and has written several articles addressing women's issues.
Conflict Managed is hosted by Merry Brown and produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services (3pconflictrestoration.com).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack.
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
(00:24):
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed
We welcome Zeina
Habib.
Zeina is an embodied leadership coach and trainer specializing in assisting results oriented tech professionals.
Her focus is on empowering them to gain confidence,
communicate effectively and connect deeply with others to bring their ideas to life,
utilizing a distinctive body,
mind coaching approach.
She integrates her international experience from living in three countries,
(00:48):
her in-depth coaching skills and her enthusiasm for dancing and movement.
Additionally,
Zeina is a contributing author to the,
she is remarkable book initiative and has written several articles addressing women's issues.
Welcome,
Zeina to Conflict Managed.
So happy to have you here this morning.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very happy to be here with you today.
Oh,
wonderful.
(01:09):
So nice to meet you.
So let's get right into it.
Will you tell us about the first job you've ever had?
Oh,
wow.
So um I am Lebanese.
So when my first job was back in Beirut Lebanon and I was still in the construction industry,
it was,
it was so interesting because it is a very different work culture than I what,
(01:29):
what I've experienced here in the US.
It is very rough and the construction industry even here is very male oriented.
So like there was a very small percentage of women in the company and it was long hours,
like there were days that I remember leaving,
were crying and not just me,
a lot of people.
So it was kind of a very interesting world to be in very aggressive.
(01:52):
And I think also in the culture,
there are people are more likely to be rough with each other like the way they talk um is more aggressive,
more direct and it was a bit,
I think it was a bit intense.
Um And I fell into it at first where I kind of like went with that and I didn't notice the patriarchy.
I didn't notice the things that were happening till I got out of it later on.
(02:14):
I did,
I was fortunate in one thing is that my first boss was one of the best people you could have.
And that made a huge difference for me.
He was super supportive,
uh super protective in the sense of like,
hey,
this is my team.
So if there's a problem,
you come to me just trying to always make sure um I am accountable,
but at the same time,
I feel safe if anything had happened,
(02:36):
I could always go to him,
I could always share anything with him.
And I think that was,
there was a huge support.
Um at least at the beginning and then moving into,
you know,
different types of bosses where I went in the same company to someone who was unpleasant.
It made it so much harder because I felt like I had to earn respect.
(02:57):
I was in a position where I was on a job site.
I was one woman among like 30 men.
I had to earn everyone's respect.
I was much younger and I did not have the support of the main manager.
Um So it felt kind of like I had to do more work.
I had to kind of grind for it.
I had to push myself.
And afterwards,
(03:18):
I felt like I was becoming someone I'm not.
And when I moved into coaching,
I felt that a lot because I was like,
I like being assertive.
I like being present.
I like speaking up,
but it went from being assertive and present and speaking up to being aggressive,
something that I didn't want to get to.
So I think the work environment I was in the manager,
(03:40):
the way it was kind of um organized,
made it very hard for me to be myself without having to give up a part of who I am,
which was,
I mean,
it was part of my learning process.
And now I'm grateful that I got to understand that.
But in the middle of it.
It was very difficult without me really feeling how much it was if that makes sense.
(04:03):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
What an interesting first job because when we're first starting out and we go into work and that's our base.
Right.
This is how things are.
And then,
and to have a wonderful first manager and then to go from that to somebody who,
um,
isn't supportive,
who you have to constantly prove yourself.
(04:24):
What a very different environment of that respect is given just because that you are a person you ought to be respected.
It's good practice to support and what that freed you to do,
even in this really rough environment with long hours leaving crying because I'm sure,
I mean,
you just get exhausted,
(04:44):
right?
But being able to bear it in a kind of way looking back fondly because you were supported versus to,
I imagine similar work,
but just being depleted and making it so that you aren't able to do your best work and turning you into somebody that you're not.
Yeah,
100%.
And also kind of augmenting my responsibility.
(05:06):
I think the hardest thing was my responsibilities were augmented and my manager was not in his place as you know,
as who he is.
He wasn't in a place to take responsibilities for those decisions.
So it was more like,
what do you think we should do?
Like?
And I was very young and I had to bear the responsibilities of the decisions.
And I was,
I've always been someone very like,
(05:28):
I like things to be done in the right way.
Like I'm not someone who's like,
oh,
he told me that.
So it felt like a huge burden to have to bear the responsibilities of making good decisions for the entire team.
And kind of have to sometimes even,
you know,
when you work in money,
you have a higher authority,
even if you are younger or if you're lower in grade.
(05:48):
So I had to talk to people in higher grade and be like,
hey,
we can't or we can do this and that alone,
like all of this and all of the pressure of that was a,
was a bit too much to bear at some point.
That's interesting.
So was he a hands off manager and just let you do what you want and put too much responsibility or how did,
(06:08):
how did that come about?
Why was this?
Why was it that he was asking you to make these decisions that were really not yours to make?
But he made them yours to make?
Yeah,
I,
I think there's,
there was a level of fear in him.
I think he just,
you know,
he's someone who doesn't like to be held accountable.
I think there's a high level of fear and he doesn't want to be accountable for any decisions.
(06:31):
He doesn't want someone coming back and saying,
hey,
like this was not the correct decisions.
We have to be accountable for it.
So it was just like,
constantly.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
And it made me feel,
I think also when you're this young,
you don't know that you need to reach out to someone else.
Maybe,
or like,
you need to be like,
hey,
maybe I should talk to a different manager or maybe I should see you within the company where I can find support.
(06:54):
It took me a while to get there.
So I ended up feeling like,
oh,
I have to make these decisions instead of OK,
I have to find a different way to get support to make the right decisions and the place I feel I'm in right now,
that is such a good point when you are starting off and you want to do a good job and you're conscientious,
you don't know the system and different organizations have different systems,
(07:17):
but there is help out there and the organization really does want you to do it well,
right,
because they want to stay in business.
And so there is help out there.
But when you are starting out,
you may not know what's available.
And that's why it's really important to have mentors.
So that when you are new to an organization or new to just the world of work,
(07:38):
you are able to succeed in a way that encourages you to flourish and thrive and you know,
we're all going to make mistakes.
But,
but some of those are mistakes that wouldn't have had to happen if someone just showed us the ropes and,
and told us what to do when we are having issues.
(07:59):
Yeah,
100%.
And I think I did at some point just kind of go to,
you know,
higher level peers that to kind of be like,
hey,
how do I do this and just ask questions informally because even that informal support was good for me.
And right now as a coach,
when I work with my clients,
and I hear these things,
I feel even more motivated because I know how hard it is.
(08:21):
And I'm like,
OK,
what are the options?
Like I feel,
I feel we get into a mentality sometimes where there are no options.
Like we get to this place where I'm stuck and this is the only way and kind of making sure that we have our world open and like,
oh,
ok,
there are a lot of options.
They may not be optimal,
they may not be um what makes things perfect and nothing really is perfect,
(08:44):
but there are other options and kind of remembering that that's such an excellent point.
And I love what you said the informal sometimes we think the only route form forward is some sort of formal.
I have to go,
you know,
codify that I'm a mentor with this person or I have to do this or that.
But really,
we,
there's a variety of options and having a coach,
(09:05):
having mentors where you have this formalized relationship.
Absolutely.
But that's not the only option.
There's lots of different ways where it's amazing what we,
we can learn by just asking questions and being curious.
And like you said,
opening up those options.
I absolutely agree.
This is because my world is dealing with conflict and conflict shuts us down,
(09:29):
makes us think that this is it.
I'm stuck there isn't anything available.
And I think conflict resolution is about personal empowerment to,
to open that back up and say,
well,
no,
no,
there are a variety and as you said,
they may not be op optimal,
but there are options out there.
Yeah.
And,
and I feel like,
(09:49):
I mean,
especially when it comes to conflict and everything that you just said,
like even reaching out to someone who's informal and all of these,
I think there requires a certain level of courage to make the first step and a certain level of trust to be able to say,
hey,
I'm gonna go to this person with something that might,
I don't want maybe everyone hearing or that may be very vulnerable.
(10:12):
So being able to find that um kind of courage and build that trust with someone or build that trust with the people around us.
So we can have whether difficult conversations or simply ask for advice is very important.
And I think very difficult,
especially when you're starting in the workplace,
I think with time and with experience,
(10:33):
I don't think it gets easier.
I think it's just you're more willing to take the risk.
Like if someone,
you know,
you trusted someone that didn't work out,
you know,
that it might happen,
you're more willing to take the risk rather than when you're like this new employee in this company and maybe not aware of how it works.
I love that.
You said that because I almost thought you're gonna say,
and it gets easier the more.
And I think no,
(10:54):
it is.
Any time you take a risk,
it's,
if it's a risk for you,
it's going to be difficult,
right?
Or else you wouldn't call it a risk,
but you are more willing because,
you know,
like,
well,
if I don't do this,
the alternative or it's worth the risk because you do have a broader preview.
But yeah,
that if to you,
it's a risk,
it's gonna require courage to do it.
(11:15):
Yeah,
I love and I love that.
You said it doesn't.
I,
because you know,
a lot of people when they come to you,
even when they're like in high positions,
like I've,
I've noticed that if you're coaching people,
like in the highest position of someone just getting started,
there's the fear doesn't go away.
It's just,
it's a different type of fear.
Like I don't think,
saying to a client it's easier ever helps or saying to anyone is easier is even true.
(11:38):
So I like that,
you mentioned that.
So where did you go after the construction company?
So as I was in the construction company,
I started,
I,
I took a communication training.
I think I was,
when I got that depleted,
I was like,
let me try that.
And when I was in that training,
they were like,
you're good at that stuff,
like you good at listening and you can develop those skills and get into this world.
(12:00):
So I started doing it after work where I would go coach people train how to coach.
And then I started doing an online course,
like I'd wake up at 2 a.m. to do an online course to the US to kind of grow in my coaching.
And then that was,
I mean,
I think this is where things change where it's like there's another way,
there's something else I could do.
I moved to the masters in Belgium and then I moved here to the US and I got a job.
(12:26):
I started in the construction industry because it was easier as a move.
But I was opening up my,
you know,
coaching business on the side.
And it was so interesting because it was the same type of work,
but it was so different because culturally,
it was,
I wouldn't say it was a shock.
It was just an adjustment.
(12:47):
Like the simplest thing I would go into my boss's office and I'd say I just argued with a subcontractor and his face would change.
Because for me,
arguing in Lebanon is just a normal part that people do and argued here is like a bigger thing.
So people would be like,
shocked or get mad or like it was just a weird reaction and I'd be like,
(13:07):
oh OK.
So that's not how people interact here.
So I had to change like you can't be pushy like the pushiness I had in Lebanon doesn't really work here.
And what time I discovered,
I love that.
Um And it was,
it was hard,
I think right now I talk about it.
It's a bit of a,
it's not as,
you know,
the memories are not as clear.
(13:29):
Um But I do still remember the feeling of like,
is this good?
Not good enough.
It is this um is this who I really want to be and how can I transform?
Because when you do that,
you're shedding an identity taking on a new one and you're trying to adjust to a lot of people around you that already know how to speak to each other and you don't know how to connect and it wasn't even a language.
(13:55):
I mean,
it wasn't that I could not speak fluently.
It was that a very small difference in vocabulary could affect an entire sentence just like the word,
you know,
argue,
which is sounds like it's not a big deal,
but in that kind of context,
it kind of is.
So I think that was it like,
how do I understand the new culture,
(14:18):
how do I adapt to it?
Um And how do I transform myself where I want to but keep the things about myself that I like.
So it was an interesting transition and you know,
doing the coaching definitely helped because I was coaching people all over.
So that was kind of understanding culture and being able to support people at the same time.
And that sounds so interesting and fascinating.
(14:42):
So you've gone through this process yourself of going from one culture to another culture,
right?
And um a variety of other cultures,
another European culture and then over here to to the US,
what what worked for you.
How did you find that way to communicate with not just the language but your choice of words and your body language and how you interact with people on an everyday basis?
(15:10):
How did you or is there anything that helped you figure that out that you now encourage the people that you coach if they are working with a variety of cultures?
Is there anything in particular that that helped you to make that adjustment?
Yeah,
of course.
I think one of the main things is being accepting towards myself.
Um when you get there,
(15:31):
you have to hold yourself to different standards.
Like if you're asking too much,
you're constantly gonna be like I'm failing.
I don't know what I'm doing.
But if you're like,
hey,
today's goal is simply to get through the day or understand how things are happening around me.
I think that is the first thing like just be self accepting,
understand that this is difficult.
This is not just moving jobs,
you are moving jobs,
(15:52):
you are changing culture.
There's a lot involved.
The second thing is being honest about it,
find a place or a person in your work that you could just be like,
hey,
I'm struggling with this.
Let's just if you can be honest with me and tell me when I am using the wrong word or when something is different and kind of even be able to share my own body language because in a sense you want to adapt,
(16:16):
but you don't want to lose yourself.
Like there are things you wanna keep and people have to adapt to that.
So it's more about finding the space to share who you are and being OK with that discomfort.
Because the first time you say,
hey,
this is something I want to hold on to and you do it.
It's terrifying.
You don't know what the reaction it's gonna be and sometimes the reaction is not positive.
(16:39):
So you have to be able to sit with that discomfort and be this is how I'm showing up.
This is my,
you know,
embodiment today.
These are the words I'm using and they may not dive completely with what other people feel.
But I want to do it and I want to be able to show up as that.
But I think having an,
I also was very important when I moved here.
I have a friend I met here and I'm like,
(17:00):
when I say wrong words always tell me and I use floor instead of ground or ground instead of floor like things like that,
she always corrects me.
But because I gave her the permission,
it actually helps and no one feels cared to correct in that sense.
So that kind of was also giving me,
you know,
the feedback I need is helping me feel like,
OK,
(17:20):
I am improving in this,
but at the same time,
not feeling judged.
So if I were to kind of recap high level of civil,
a self acceptance,
um having an ally,
someone to support you and just kind of be like,
hey,
I've got you and the good things and I've got you on the feedback.
And then the third one,
which I think is also important,
being able to be uncomfortable with staying yourself where you want to.
(17:48):
That is just beautifully put.
Wow.
And,
and you've experienced it and isn't that what we want?
We want to be ourselves no matter where we are,
but how we express ourselves,
you can legitimately genuinely be yourself,
but sometimes in a different setting or of course,
in a different culture,
the expression of that in order to communicate to others is going to need to change.
(18:11):
And so that level of acceptance,
self,
acceptance,
grace on yourself and grace on others as they are getting used to you,
just like when we do any sort of job change,
there's that,
that period of how does this person work,
how do they communicate?
Uh how do we work well together?
Of course,
there's this extra layer as,
as you've communicated when you are,
(18:33):
when you are changing culture.
So just as you would have grace on the people that are getting to know you setting up those conversations and giving people permission,
have you dealt much with people trying to correct you that you don't want that kind of input or that relationship from them and how have you dealt with that?
Oh,
yeah,
(18:53):
I've had some of some really awkward conversations.
I think I've,
I mean,
I've been lucky as like no one in my really close circle has done something that has um hurt me.
So when people in general,
honestly,
it becomes a kind of humorous story that I share around with my friends as like an example because I feel it's not,
(19:14):
I mean,
for me it's not worth it.
There are people who are going to be like that.
I'm not looking to change anyone.
And for me,
it doesn't matter as much.
I think it's harder when it's someone that's close to you is,
you know,
kind of being insensitive in those things.
And I have been lucky enough that I have not really had that happen.
And if it had,
like,
I'm trying to recall right now,
if it had,
(19:34):
there's always been a conversation afterward,
either an apology from the other person or me trying to state exactly why that was insensitive.
It wasn't working and to a sense as a person,
I'm,
you know,
being a coach,
I'm a good listener and I'm a good kind of like understanding of I'm a bit understanding of others.
(19:54):
So I get the limitations of people.
And if I know someone is within those limitations,
I am not trying to change them.
I do however believe in boundaries.
So if I am understanding of someone whose limitations cannot um work with who I am,
(20:14):
I will put stricter boundaries to protect myself and not expose myself to hurtful um conversation.
I'll be very respectful,
very accepting,
but there's a difference between being respectful and accepting and allowing harm to yourself.
So I think there needs to be a,
you know,
a good way to deal with that.
Like you can be respectful,
you can be understanding but also say,
(20:36):
hey,
I need to limit contact or I need to find a way where there isn't,
you know,
a very deep relationship with this person because what they do is hurting me and it does not,
you know,
drive with my values or with who I am as a person go.
So many wonderful things in there.
And I like that you said that you realize that people have limitations,
which is 100% true.
(20:56):
Right.
Nobody is perfect.
We all have blind spots and I hope that we are all in the process.
I,
I believe we're all in process and hopefully we are emotionally developing,
morally developing.
And I think sometimes when we come into work,
we put this burden on others as if they ought to be perfect and they ought to always get it right.
(21:17):
And if they don't,
it's because they don't care about me,
they don't see me.
They are,
you know,
they are not acting correctly and maybe that's true.
But that recognition that what it means to be a human person is that we're imperfect and what do we do with that recognition?
How do we move forward?
(21:37):
How do we allow grace to others?
But also as you said,
having boundaries,
right?
And that's what everybody gets to decide for themselves,
what their boundaries are,
how they're going to enforce them,
how they're going to move those boundaries,
depending on the situation and everybody gets to do that.
And so when somebody is maybe doing something that is crossing your boundaries at work or other places that you get to decide what to do next.
(22:04):
But that recognition of the fallible nature of the people that we work with and the people in our lives,
if you have that perspective,
I think it can help you sort of reframe what has happened at work that barb that not being invited to lunch,
that someone taking credit for something that you've done,
not that it doesn't need to be addressed,
(22:25):
but it could be understood in this human context instead of I'm being attacked by this person who is in a way,
um,
a caricature of a person,
you know,
that they,
they aren't a per person with a back story and they're trying to make it in the world too.
So I thought that was,
that was really,
really well put.
(22:45):
Thank you.
And you know,
I always look at it this way,
whether I am coaching someone through it or I'm facing it myself is something happens and it triggers me or triggers someone.
I take a step back and I always think what triggered me,
what was it?
Did I feel I know myself like if I feel disrespected,
if I feel my opinion wasn't taken,
like I know the things that will trigger me and I'm like,
(23:06):
ok,
this is what happened.
And then I look at the other person,
what are their needs?
What are they trying to do?
Do they need the appreciation?
Is that what they were trying,
you know,
to get out of this conversation?
Do they need to feel like they have control?
What is the need that they have?
What are their motivations are their motivations?
Because not everyone's motivation is just to get the job done,
which even including me,
(23:27):
like we have motivations when we're doing a certain job,
maybe we like things to be very detailed or maybe we like things a certain way.
So what are our motivations and what are our communication styles?
Like if someone is very direct,
it does not mean that they're attacking could be that this is simply how they communicate.
So being able to create this kind of framework for yourself.
(23:48):
First of all,
saves you a lot of headaches,
saves you a lot of um unnecessary,
you know,
elong elongated emotions because you could be angry in the moment,
work through it,
understand what happened,
maybe talk through it with a friend but not have to elongate and just kind of like ruminate on your mind where it's like they did this,
they don't care or whatever it could simply be.
(24:08):
They did this because they had a bad day.
You know,
they fell in the morning.
They are people who are very direct or they felt like their own autonomy,
their own freedom was not,
you know,
accounted for in that conversation,
whether correctly or incorrectly.
But this is their perspective.
And I think this is not about saying who's right because that doesn't really matter.
(24:30):
It's about understanding what is happening on their side,
what is happening on your side and then you could make whatever decision you want.
Like it could be completely stepping out and being this doesn't work for me or it could be engaging and trying to fix it.
But you have so much more power and like we said earlier,
the options are more,
are bigger instead of saying,
hey,
(24:50):
I want to change you and I want you to be this way because that never really works.
I mean,
try to,
you know,
fell multiple times trying to do that.
It never works.
That's right.
There is so much freedom in not trying to get the other person to agree that you are right,
if we are not out there trying to make everybody see reality the way that we see it,
(25:11):
even though we're right and they're wrong in the end for human relationships.
It doesn't really matter.
It's how are we going to move forward?
How can,
especially at work,
how can we work together so that we both have a respectful,
peaceful work environment and that we could do great work,
right?
And I think once we,
we I'm talking to myself because I have this very strong sense of justice and I want people to do a certain thing and I want people to see the world a certain way.
(25:37):
But once I let that go and really,
you know,
what does it mean to live and let live?
What does it really mean to respect the autonomy of another person?
What does it really mean to wish someone well and still be in a relationship where I feel like they are not seeing the facts the way that I'm seeing them and I get to decide whether or not that bothers me.
(26:00):
I get to decide how to move forward,
as you said,
move forward with this relationship,
put up boundaries or,
or put different boundaries in place.
But that is very freeing.
When we see at work,
we can work,
we can address certain sorts of behaviors,
but you know,
the having to agree on the truth,
(26:22):
whatever that may be is really secondary where many times we put that front and center.
But it's a diversion,
I think.
Yeah,
and I wanna just make sure that some um a message is coming across is that there are cases where like you do really need to go to hr you really need to go to someone because I mean,
I've had that happen to me where like there are things that cannot be said,
(26:45):
behaviors that cannot be accepted.
And that is not in that,
I mean,
it is in that category in the sense of like you have to accept the situation and not let it affect you for your own mental health,
but it does not mean that you have to live with the abuse.
Um And that could be from like going to hr talking to your manager.
Um And if all of that doesn't work simply sometimes changing workplace,
(27:05):
like there are options within this realm of trying to work through the conflict.
But there are,
there are times where you simply could walk away and that is completely understandable because some,
and,
and I think it's very difficult to know what the limitations are.
I think it depends also on the company's policies and who you are as a person.
(27:25):
Um,
but I think it's very important for people to know that they do not have to stay somewhere where they are feeling abuse if that is,
you know,
what is happening,
that they have a choice.
Oh,
absolutely.
And we think about when you were talking just now,
I was thinking about gas lighting and gas lighting is all about somebody intentionally or unintentionally trying to mess with the facts and,
(27:48):
and make it so that you are become vulnerable and depend and question yourself and there's a variety of things and I think when you get out of ok,
this person is saying this and I don't believe this is true.
I don't need to convince them.
I think it can,
it can take the power away from the gas lighter and it puts it back in you.
What am I going to do now?
(28:09):
Exactly.
When do I need to talk to my boss's boss?
When do I need to talk to my boss or hr,
or change jobs?
Absolutely.
100% no one should take abuse.
And sometimes though when it's verbal or something like gas lighting,
it's,
it's harder to see because sometimes that's like a,
the boiling water.
You don't even really know it until and until you're,
(28:30):
you're really in it and you realize,
oh,
this person has been lying to me doesn't have my back.
They are manipulating and hurting me.
And what do I do now?
And this is why I always encourage my clients to either have a peer that they talk to they ruminate with.
I love this kind of idea of just sitting and saying things rawly the way they are,
(28:50):
even if they're ugly.
But knowing this person is not judging you and you're really not judging when you're talking,
you're just letting things out whether it's a peer,
whether sometimes there are a lot of companies that offer communities just community meeting where you can come out and be like,
hey,
this is what's happening just to take another opinion because like you said,
sometimes we could not even know that we're being gas lighted or we don't understand that this isn't normal.
(29:14):
Like my first job,
I didn't know this was not normal.
So having these conversations could give you um also that power to know,
first of all,
to feel supported and to know what is really maybe an exaggeration sometimes or what is really truly correct or you should be acting on.
Yes.
And I think it can go the other way too.
(29:35):
When you're new to the workforce,
you might be asked to do something that you think that doesn't sound right and it turns out it's actually best practice industry standard and you weren't aware of it and maybe you don't like it.
But there's a lot of things we do at work that we don't like and being able to say that and having somebody who says,
oh no,
well,
that is standard for these reasons or how can you get support so that you can move forward in,
(29:56):
in this area.
So I think it can work both ways with that litmus test to sometimes we inflate things because of what has happened to us in the past or because of a variety of issues and someone can help us to deescalates to really put it in perspective,
right?
What,
what has really happened here so that we can you may help us to be maybe a little bit more alarmed than we are like,
(30:18):
oh,
this needs to be addressed or this is something that you can address because it's more of a you issue and help you develop as a professional in the work environment.
Yeah,
100%.
I love that.
I like that.
You mentioned early on in our conversation about a willingness to be uncomfortable and many times we flee from being uncomfortable.
(30:40):
There's so many different diversions,
we can pull out our phone and get on social media.
We can,
you know,
lose ourselves in,
in books or in different kinds of media,
we can numb ourselves with drugs and alcohol,
we can deny it.
Push it down because we don't want to feel uncomfortable and yet what a weird expectation that we shouldn't feel uncomfortable.
(31:05):
Can you talk a little bit about,
about your decision or your or your view that being uncomfortable is not bad but getting comfortable with the uncomfortable?
Yeah.
So a lot of the work that I do actually is body based in the sense of like when you're talking about being uncomfortable with emotions,
it is all about the body.
You are not thinking your emotions,
(31:26):
you're feeling them.
Like when when you say pain strucks,
you're actually feeling pain in your body and making sure that you can sit with this emotion and be like this is not the,
this isn't the end of the world and kind of also augmenting your body's capacity because sometimes we start with a very low capacity for pain,
(31:47):
not necessarily pain,
but this and then we grow it like being able to sit knowing that right now,
maybe,
you know,
I'm afraid of feeling humiliated,
humiliated or whatever emotion and being able to breathe through it and let that spread through my body without me having to react is very important.
And the reason why I say it is very important is because emotions are not always correct.
(32:13):
They could be false alarms.
We are evolutionary speaking,
we are,
you know,
used to kind of sometimes reacting to fear to anger and all of these things when our needs are not met but our needs not being like this kind of thinking does not mean it's getting you where you want to be.
If you are trying for example,
(32:33):
to succeed at work and be a good leader,
it could be mean sometimes having to talk to someone and fire them,
which means that you are uncomfortable and afraid.
And if you don't,
you know,
have that conversation,
you're not going to get to your goal,
which is fine.
You could say I don't want to,
I'm not gonna become this leader.
But if you have values and goals you want to reach,
you have to go through that motion,
(32:55):
you have to go through augmenting your body's,
you know,
capacity to handle that discomfort.
There's no other way around it.
And I get a lot of clients that want to remove the fear or want to remove the emotions.
And,
you know,
maybe we can work to kind of reduce our reactivity or reduce our um you know,
sensitivity to certain emotions.
But we can never get to a point where we're like,
(33:17):
oh great.
I'm gonna go fire someone and be happy about it.
I mean,
that is also not something you want to reach.
No,
I mean,
and I'm giving this example because I feel it,
everyone will relate to it.
It's extreme.
But there are a lot of other smaller examples such as talking to your boss or having a difficult conversations.
But if you are trying really to achieve goals or live through your values.
(33:42):
You will always have difficult emotions and I always tell my clients you don't have to do it.
You can stay only comfortable if you're ok with it.
But the moment you have big goals,
the moment you have things you want to achieve,
there's no way around it.
Yeah.
And even that desire to stay safe and not to have emotions is going to give you negative emotions because then you're going to be frustrated and you're going to have that sort of dissonance within yourself.
(34:08):
And so there's no way around difficult emotions.
Either you decide to deal with them in a healthy fruitful way or you don't.
And so then it makes it,
then you're gonna have more difficult emotions and of course you can deny them and stuff them down,
but then you're gonna,
they,
they're still there and they come out somehow.
(34:28):
So you're going to be dealing with them consciously or unconsciously,
why not do it in a way that actually is commiserate with your values in a way that helps you achieve the next,
I've been working on understanding my emotions and I'm very bad at it.
Uh We all are welcome to the club in my uh I live in Tennessee and we had this big ice storm and um my basement flooded and I'm like,
(34:59):
ok,
well,
this is very high stress,
you know,
uh Tennessee never freezes for a whole week.
Like below,
you know,
temperatures and um all the plumbers,
all of this,
you know,
they have been working to capacity and no one to come out.
And my husband and I are just,
you know,
like,
uh what's,
and of course we found it on a Friday night.
And so it's the weekend and,
(35:21):
and so I said,
ok,
Mary,
this is an opportunity to deal with this high stress situation to feel the feelings.
What do you feel?
And I was laying in my bed and I'm like,
OK,
I feel this,
I feel this now,
I'm like,
OK,
go ahead and feel it,
feel it in your body.
I like trying to name them intellectually.
And II,
I,
so I'm a philosopher and I taught philosophy for a very long time and,
(35:44):
and as a philosopher,
you intellectualize everything is in this,
this world up here.
Very rare.
I mean,
well,
that's just what you do.
That's,
and so I've trained myself to take apart arguments in this very analytical way.
And now trying to find my body,
like I know her conflict hits me in my body.
(36:04):
I,
I know that but trying to integrate the knowledge of,
oh you feel this way,
you feel that way but moving it from the intellect into like,
where is it look like feeling it?
I'm still trying to figure out how would I feel it?
I don't know.
OK,
a few tips on that.
Yes.
OK.
First of all starting from what am I feeling?
(36:26):
Trying to find the word first makes it harder because you have a tendency to go towards the intellectual part.
So you wanna think,
what am I sensing?
Instead of thinking of like going towards I'm feeling afraid.
What am I sensing?
I'm sensing this.
So what you're looking is not a word.
What you're looking for is the sensation itself.
(36:46):
Whatever that sensation means,
it could be any emotion,
it could be the,
whatever emotion it doesn't matter because you're training your body with sensation.
A lot of things to do is to try uh putting music on and just moving because you are putting yourself in your body and in a way where you don't have to think like you're not at the beginning,
it's gonna be hard because a lot of my clients are like,
what do I do now?
(37:07):
I'm like,
just do it and it takes time but like just learning how to not be in your mind by moving.
Sometimes I do a freefall writing which is basically you give yourself a minute and then you have to write nonstop.
So you can't pull out the pen to think.
You just,
you know,
if you think banana strawberry,
whatever words are coming to your mind,
you just write them down.
(37:28):
Um that helps your body,
sorry,
that helps your um mind detach a bit.
So it's not about going through you.
You know,
I feel also if you're thinking about emotions and especially difficult ones.
What you're pushing your body to do is to feel something that is difficult.
(37:50):
What I always like to do is to create the habit of connecting to your body,
not going directly to the difficult one.
So how do you learn to connect your body so that you have that capacity?
And then you start when emotions start to come up and you understand sensations and you understand that you don't have to be here.
It becomes easier,
but you have to build the habit first because trying to go towards sensations first and strong sensations,
(38:16):
I I wouldn't like if I,
if it were my mind,
I'd be like,
yeah,
no,
I don't want to do this.
This is too unfamiliar,
too difficult.
So I think learning to train how to be connected to the body through everything,
through movement,
through activities,
through breathing,
um through simply doing creative stuff helps create that disconnection and always thinking of sensations instead of emotions because we're so trained for words,
(38:41):
sensations is more like,
you know,
high energy at thing going.
So it kind of pushes us to be more um body centered than mind centered.
Thank you very much.
That's very helpful.
I will be playing this back several times and taking notes,
but I love you.
You've mentioned this several times about building capacity and I think it's the same thing with conflict if you have a conflict at work uh,
(39:06):
and you're learning how to deal with conflict in a,
in a win win,
restorative way.
Don't pick the big thing that's been going on for six months a year.
Pick the very small thing.
At first,
I would say practice with somebody who is a friend,
you know,
practice with somebody who either you're not even having a conflict but just even getting the words out.
What would it feel like?
(39:26):
How am I gonna,
how,
how am I going to put the tools I've learned into practice to having a conversation and then maybe move on to once you kind of get that rhythm down,
what feels right for you,
maybe try something really small that has happened with that friend.
Like you said,
we were gonna go here but you rescheduled that hurt my feelings,
(39:48):
tell me what's going on,
right?
Someone that you really trust and it's even in that relationship,
it's low stakes getting some confidence and developing your courage by working very,
in a very small way to develop those capacities,
those competencies so that you can talk to your boss or eventually,
you know,
(40:08):
those the the bigger issues.
But you,
you know,
yes,
I do want to start big,
right?
So I could use that same advice with conflict to try to understand my emotional responses.
Thank you very much.
100%.
We always like,
we're always so excited about being able to reach change.
Um But if you don't do the practice technique.
You know,
(40:28):
most athletes,
dancers,
people who have activities know that like if you really want to improve,
you need this kind of like a small thing that your body and mind can handle.
Like your capacity is not suddenly being overloaded.
Yes,
absolutely.
So when you think about the different relationships you've had at work,
can you tell us about a conflict that you had with another person and how you dealt with it?
(40:52):
Yeah,
of course,
let's see.
Pick a good 11 of my managers at this company right now that I work with,
have a very good ongoing relationships.
I think we both speak the language of being able to be in conflict like he is so good,
like I feel like he strives on conflict.
I've never met someone like that and it's so interesting and so beautiful and I am not conflict averse,
(41:17):
but I am not like a strive and conflict kind of person like I would not run towards conflict.
So I,
you know,
I go into his office and he has this thing where he tends to take everything you do and break it down to pieces and then rebuild it himself.
And at first it was kind of difficult,
but then I understood that this is his way.
(41:38):
So and it would frustrate me because I would sit there and he's,
you know,
taking it apart and I'm trying to say my word and he gets frustrated when I'm trying to speak and kind of like it feels to him like I'm interrupting.
So one day we were both like,
ok,
we need a break.
So we took some space and then we got back and we were like,
what would work?
So we made a decision.
Both of us talk through it where it's like we need to avoid this frustration.
(42:02):
You get frustrated when I,
you know,
go in and start talking things like that.
So he'd look at me and he'd be like,
let me finish.
So we agreed that whenever he feels that he can just say this and then we agreed that whenever I feel I am frustrated by him being too much in the weeds,
I could say like I can do this or I would just not go into his office when he's reviewing it.
(42:22):
He would call me after he's done.
So I don't feel like I'm,
you know,
in the moment with him when that in the things that will frustrate me.
So if I were to break that apart,
it was more taking space,
understanding what is frustrating each one of us and why and then finding solutions that would not feel disrespectful to the other person and that could be applied.
(42:47):
Um Instead of like,
if it kept escalating,
we were gonna get to a point where we had a bad relationship where we were constantly,
you know,
either snapping at each other or things like that.
So I feel that helped us come to the right resolution.
Um And I think we keep doing it all the time whenever something comes up,
like we just handle it that way.
What a wonderful example I would say first,
(43:08):
it started with the fact that you had a,
a good working relationship.
And that's where I think conflict resolution begins from day one,
building your relationships.
So that when you real,
when you notice that something is happening and you will have conflict,
conflict is normal,
you notice it in time to not so damage a relationship that you decide it's not worth saving or you know,
(43:32):
the longer you let something faster,
the more you have to do to repair it.
So you started with the foundation of mutual respect,
realize something's going on and then came to a win win solution.
It wasn't he won or you won,
you won together.
And that's,
that's the only way to do it in any kind of relationship.
(43:52):
If one person wins,
everybody loses.
But finding that what works genuinely works both for you,
which is not a compromise.
It's addressing each person's needs,
understanding and willing to work with the other person so that you can continue in a fruitful,
a fruitful way.
And I love that example because it also highlights that just because you have a good relationship now,
(44:14):
doesn't mean that something difficult isn't gonna come your way.
It probably will.
So prepare now to deal with it,
but deal with it.
Yeah,
100%.
And something interesting you said is that we had a good relationship.
We did a lot of work of,
you know,
taking lunch breaks and just going,
having lunch and talking about complete,
like,
things are relevant to work just to kind of connect on a human level.
(44:36):
So when I am frustrated,
I'm not just seeing someone who is,
you know,
giving me instructions or asking me to do things.
I'm seeing a human being,
a complete human being with,
you know,
their likes and their dislikes.
And I think that is super important to learn how to build,
you know,
a professional outside of work relationship just to kind of create this kind of connection that allows you to have difficult conversations.
(45:00):
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of lost in the world of work right now as if the quote unquote water cooler talk is unnecessary and it's an infringing now.
I don't think that anybody should talk about anything that they don't want to talk about work.
We can he have our boundaries,
but we all have to figure out how to make those human connections because at the end of the day,
everyone's a human first and a colleague,
(45:21):
second or a boss,
second to develop those relationships that are,
you know,
where we recognize the other person as a full person,
as you said.
So that when we have something that's difficult,
we are able to connect and we're able to make that forward motion.
But to think that if I just see this other person as this cardboard cut out,
(45:41):
it's so easy to villainize them,
to become the victim in that scenario and to,
to have,
get a given to despair and not even have the conversation because I don't,
haven't laid the foundation to be able to do something difficult with that person.
Yeah,
100% very important.
(46:01):
So when you look into the future of work,
what do you think needs to happen?
So that not only is everyone treated with dignity and respect,
but that people are encouraged to thrive and flourish at work.
I think the first thing which is very important is creating a level of trust and that comes from humanizing each other.
(46:22):
I think we have got sometimes we go into this not dehumanizing,
but like you said,
like the cardboard version of a person.
So I think making sure especially with the remote work,
making sure that we are giving enough opportunities to just reach out to people,
even if we're not working with them on a daily basis to create those connections to have this kind of um you know,
(46:44):
habit of talking to people just for the simple act of talking.
And again,
we're not saying people should share every little detail about what their lives,
but share things that you're comfortable with and like understand that everyone around you is human.
And also by creating a level of trust,
I think it's,
you know,
the company coming up with ideas,
(47:05):
whether it's communication styles.
Like I,
I've heard of companies that have whatever personality test they choose but they have like on everyone's um desk like,
hey,
that their type of communication,
it doesn't have to be this extreme.
But allowing people to say this is how I communicate,
allowing people to come as they are.
And I think it has to come,
you know,
from up down,
(47:25):
rather from down,
up to kind of provide that level of safety.
Uh So people feel like they can talk the way they want to feel like they could be accepted and they can speak up.
And I think the third thing is community,
like providing a sense of community,
whether it's,
you know,
group for women or group for,
it doesn't have to be even this segregated,
it could be anything,
just go sports game like a group that does always sports together.
(47:49):
I think that helps also,
you know,
provide a level of support for every employee.
And I think the final thing is investing in helping employees communicate better,
investing in this skill because a lot of people maybe,
you know,
are better at it the way they grew up how they were trained,
but not everyone is.
So I would say,
(48:10):
you know,
learning how to create trust by building fun relationships with others.
And investing in that,
giving the people permission to express how they communicate who they are,
especially in a professional setting and then investing in,
you know,
training people on how to speak to each other and how to solve conflict.
I think those three things will go a long way,
(48:30):
especially with us moving a lot into remote work,
great advice.
It sounds,
sounds like we should do those things.
Absolutely to have healthier work environments.
Well,
thank you so much for being on conflict managed.
I really have enjoyed our conversation.
Yeah,
so have I thank you.
Zeina,
Thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed.
I certainly will put your suggestions into place or at least work on it to develop my own emotional capacity.
(48:54):
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If there's someone you would like to see interviewed on Conflict Managed or you would like to be interviewed on Conflict Managed,
please drop us a line.
You can reach us at 3Pconflictrestoration@gmail.com.
(49:17):
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time,
take care,
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight,
Jack.
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
(00:24):
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed
We welcome Zeina
Habib.
Zeina is an embodied leadership coach and trainer specializing in assisting results oriented tech professionals.
Her focus is on empowering them to gain confidence,
communicate effectively and connect deeply with others to bring their ideas to life,
utilizing a distinctive body,
mind coaching approach.
She integrates her international experience from living in three countries,
(00:48):
her in-depth coaching skills and her enthusiasm for dancing and movement.
Additionally,
Zeina is a contributing author to the,
she is remarkable book initiative and has written several articles addressing women's issues.
Welcome,
Zeina to Conflict Managed.
So happy to have you here this morning.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very happy to be here with you today.
Oh,
wonderful.
(01:09):
So nice to meet you.
So let's get right into it.
Will you tell us about the first job you've ever had?
Oh,
wow.
So um I am Lebanese.
So when my first job was back in Beirut Lebanon and I was still in the construction industry,
it was,
it was so interesting because it is a very different work culture than I what,
(01:29):
what I've experienced here in the US.
It is very rough and the construction industry even here is very male oriented.
So like there was a very small percentage of women in the company and it was long hours,
like there were days that I remember leaving,
were crying and not just me,
a lot of people.
So it was kind of a very interesting world to be in very aggressive.
(01:52):
And I think also in the culture,
there are people are more likely to be rough with each other like the way they talk um is more aggressive,
more direct and it was a bit,
I think it was a bit intense.
Um And I fell into it at first where I kind of like went with that and I didn't notice the patriarchy.
I didn't notice the things that were happening till I got out of it later on.
(02:14):
I did,
I was fortunate in one thing is that my first boss was one of the best people you could have.
And that made a huge difference for me.
He was super supportive,
uh super protective in the sense of like,
hey,
this is my team.
So if there's a problem,
you come to me just trying to always make sure um I am accountable,
but at the same time,
I feel safe if anything had happened,
(02:36):
I could always go to him,
I could always share anything with him.
And I think that was,
there was a huge support.
Um at least at the beginning and then moving into,
you know,
different types of bosses where I went in the same company to someone who was unpleasant.
It made it so much harder because I felt like I had to earn respect.
(02:57):
I was in a position where I was on a job site.
I was one woman among like 30 men.
I had to earn everyone's respect.
I was much younger and I did not have the support of the main manager.
Um So it felt kind of like I had to do more work.
I had to kind of grind for it.
I had to push myself.
And afterwards,
(03:18):
I felt like I was becoming someone I'm not.
And when I moved into coaching,
I felt that a lot because I was like,
I like being assertive.
I like being present.
I like speaking up,
but it went from being assertive and present and speaking up to being aggressive,
something that I didn't want to get to.
So I think the work environment I was in the manager,
(03:40):
the way it was kind of um organized,
made it very hard for me to be myself without having to give up a part of who I am,
which was,
I mean,
it was part of my learning process.
And now I'm grateful that I got to understand that.
But in the middle of it.
It was very difficult without me really feeling how much it was if that makes sense.
(04:03):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
What an interesting first job because when we're first starting out and we go into work and that's our base.
Right.
This is how things are.
And then,
and to have a wonderful first manager and then to go from that to somebody who,
um,
isn't supportive,
who you have to constantly prove yourself.
(04:24):
What a very different environment of that respect is given just because that you are a person you ought to be respected.
It's good practice to support and what that freed you to do,
even in this really rough environment with long hours leaving crying because I'm sure,
I mean,
you just get exhausted,
(04:44):
right?
But being able to bear it in a kind of way looking back fondly because you were supported versus to,
I imagine similar work,
but just being depleted and making it so that you aren't able to do your best work and turning you into somebody that you're not.
Yeah,
100%.
And also kind of augmenting my responsibility.
(05:06):
I think the hardest thing was my responsibilities were augmented and my manager was not in his place as you know,
as who he is.
He wasn't in a place to take responsibilities for those decisions.
So it was more like,
what do you think we should do?
Like?
And I was very young and I had to bear the responsibilities of the decisions.
And I was,
I've always been someone very like,
(05:28):
I like things to be done in the right way.
Like I'm not someone who's like,
oh,
he told me that.
So it felt like a huge burden to have to bear the responsibilities of making good decisions for the entire team.
And kind of have to sometimes even,
you know,
when you work in money,
you have a higher authority,
even if you are younger or if you're lower in grade.
(05:48):
So I had to talk to people in higher grade and be like,
hey,
we can't or we can do this and that alone,
like all of this and all of the pressure of that was a,
was a bit too much to bear at some point.
That's interesting.
So was he a hands off manager and just let you do what you want and put too much responsibility or how did,
(06:08):
how did that come about?
Why was this?
Why was it that he was asking you to make these decisions that were really not yours to make?
But he made them yours to make?
Yeah,
I,
I think there's,
there was a level of fear in him.
I think he just,
you know,
he's someone who doesn't like to be held accountable.
I think there's a high level of fear and he doesn't want to be accountable for any decisions.
(06:31):
He doesn't want someone coming back and saying,
hey,
like this was not the correct decisions.
We have to be accountable for it.
So it was just like,
constantly.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
And it made me feel,
I think also when you're this young,
you don't know that you need to reach out to someone else.
Maybe,
or like,
you need to be like,
hey,
maybe I should talk to a different manager or maybe I should see you within the company where I can find support.
(06:54):
It took me a while to get there.
So I ended up feeling like,
oh,
I have to make these decisions instead of OK,
I have to find a different way to get support to make the right decisions and the place I feel I'm in right now,
that is such a good point when you are starting off and you want to do a good job and you're conscientious,
you don't know the system and different organizations have different systems,
(07:17):
but there is help out there and the organization really does want you to do it well,
right,
because they want to stay in business.
And so there is help out there.
But when you are starting out,
you may not know what's available.
And that's why it's really important to have mentors.
So that when you are new to an organization or new to just the world of work,
(07:38):
you are able to succeed in a way that encourages you to flourish and thrive and you know,
we're all going to make mistakes.
But,
but some of those are mistakes that wouldn't have had to happen if someone just showed us the ropes and,
and told us what to do when we are having issues.
(07:59):
Yeah,
100%.
And I think I did at some point just kind of go to,
you know,
higher level peers that to kind of be like,
hey,
how do I do this and just ask questions informally because even that informal support was good for me.
And right now as a coach,
when I work with my clients,
and I hear these things,
I feel even more motivated because I know how hard it is.
(08:21):
And I'm like,
OK,
what are the options?
Like I feel,
I feel we get into a mentality sometimes where there are no options.
Like we get to this place where I'm stuck and this is the only way and kind of making sure that we have our world open and like,
oh,
ok,
there are a lot of options.
They may not be optimal,
they may not be um what makes things perfect and nothing really is perfect,
(08:44):
but there are other options and kind of remembering that that's such an excellent point.
And I love what you said the informal sometimes we think the only route form forward is some sort of formal.
I have to go,
you know,
codify that I'm a mentor with this person or I have to do this or that.
But really,
we,
there's a variety of options and having a coach,
(09:05):
having mentors where you have this formalized relationship.
Absolutely.
But that's not the only option.
There's lots of different ways where it's amazing what we,
we can learn by just asking questions and being curious.
And like you said,
opening up those options.
I absolutely agree.
This is because my world is dealing with conflict and conflict shuts us down,
(09:29):
makes us think that this is it.
I'm stuck there isn't anything available.
And I think conflict resolution is about personal empowerment to,
to open that back up and say,
well,
no,
no,
there are a variety and as you said,
they may not be op optimal,
but there are options out there.
Yeah.
And,
and I feel like,
(09:49):
I mean,
especially when it comes to conflict and everything that you just said,
like even reaching out to someone who's informal and all of these,
I think there requires a certain level of courage to make the first step and a certain level of trust to be able to say,
hey,
I'm gonna go to this person with something that might,
I don't want maybe everyone hearing or that may be very vulnerable.
(10:12):
So being able to find that um kind of courage and build that trust with someone or build that trust with the people around us.
So we can have whether difficult conversations or simply ask for advice is very important.
And I think very difficult,
especially when you're starting in the workplace,
I think with time and with experience,
(10:33):
I don't think it gets easier.
I think it's just you're more willing to take the risk.
Like if someone,
you know,
you trusted someone that didn't work out,
you know,
that it might happen,
you're more willing to take the risk rather than when you're like this new employee in this company and maybe not aware of how it works.
I love that.
You said that because I almost thought you're gonna say,
and it gets easier the more.
And I think no,
(10:54):
it is.
Any time you take a risk,
it's,
if it's a risk for you,
it's going to be difficult,
right?
Or else you wouldn't call it a risk,
but you are more willing because,
you know,
like,
well,
if I don't do this,
the alternative or it's worth the risk because you do have a broader preview.
But yeah,
that if to you,
it's a risk,
it's gonna require courage to do it.
(11:15):
Yeah,
I love and I love that.
You said it doesn't.
I,
because you know,
a lot of people when they come to you,
even when they're like in high positions,
like I've,
I've noticed that if you're coaching people,
like in the highest position of someone just getting started,
there's the fear doesn't go away.
It's just,
it's a different type of fear.
Like I don't think,
saying to a client it's easier ever helps or saying to anyone is easier is even true.
(11:38):
So I like that,
you mentioned that.
So where did you go after the construction company?
So as I was in the construction company,
I started,
I,
I took a communication training.
I think I was,
when I got that depleted,
I was like,
let me try that.
And when I was in that training,
they were like,
you're good at that stuff,
like you good at listening and you can develop those skills and get into this world.
(12:00):
So I started doing it after work where I would go coach people train how to coach.
And then I started doing an online course,
like I'd wake up at 2 a.m. to do an online course to the US to kind of grow in my coaching.
And then that was,
I mean,
I think this is where things change where it's like there's another way,
there's something else I could do.
I moved to the masters in Belgium and then I moved here to the US and I got a job.
(12:26):
I started in the construction industry because it was easier as a move.
But I was opening up my,
you know,
coaching business on the side.
And it was so interesting because it was the same type of work,
but it was so different because culturally,
it was,
I wouldn't say it was a shock.
It was just an adjustment.
(12:47):
Like the simplest thing I would go into my boss's office and I'd say I just argued with a subcontractor and his face would change.
Because for me,
arguing in Lebanon is just a normal part that people do and argued here is like a bigger thing.
So people would be like,
shocked or get mad or like it was just a weird reaction and I'd be like,
(13:07):
oh OK.
So that's not how people interact here.
So I had to change like you can't be pushy like the pushiness I had in Lebanon doesn't really work here.
And what time I discovered,
I love that.
Um And it was,
it was hard,
I think right now I talk about it.
It's a bit of a,
it's not as,
you know,
the memories are not as clear.
(13:29):
Um But I do still remember the feeling of like,
is this good?
Not good enough.
It is this um is this who I really want to be and how can I transform?
Because when you do that,
you're shedding an identity taking on a new one and you're trying to adjust to a lot of people around you that already know how to speak to each other and you don't know how to connect and it wasn't even a language.
(13:55):
I mean,
it wasn't that I could not speak fluently.
It was that a very small difference in vocabulary could affect an entire sentence just like the word,
you know,
argue,
which is sounds like it's not a big deal,
but in that kind of context,
it kind of is.
So I think that was it like,
how do I understand the new culture,
(14:18):
how do I adapt to it?
Um And how do I transform myself where I want to but keep the things about myself that I like.
So it was an interesting transition and you know,
doing the coaching definitely helped because I was coaching people all over.
So that was kind of understanding culture and being able to support people at the same time.
And that sounds so interesting and fascinating.
(14:42):
So you've gone through this process yourself of going from one culture to another culture,
right?
And um a variety of other cultures,
another European culture and then over here to to the US,
what what worked for you.
How did you find that way to communicate with not just the language but your choice of words and your body language and how you interact with people on an everyday basis?
(15:10):
How did you or is there anything that helped you figure that out that you now encourage the people that you coach if they are working with a variety of cultures?
Is there anything in particular that that helped you to make that adjustment?
Yeah,
of course.
I think one of the main things is being accepting towards myself.
Um when you get there,
(15:31):
you have to hold yourself to different standards.
Like if you're asking too much,
you're constantly gonna be like I'm failing.
I don't know what I'm doing.
But if you're like,
hey,
today's goal is simply to get through the day or understand how things are happening around me.
I think that is the first thing like just be self accepting,
understand that this is difficult.
This is not just moving jobs,
you are moving jobs,
(15:52):
you are changing culture.
There's a lot involved.
The second thing is being honest about it,
find a place or a person in your work that you could just be like,
hey,
I'm struggling with this.
Let's just if you can be honest with me and tell me when I am using the wrong word or when something is different and kind of even be able to share my own body language because in a sense you want to adapt,
(16:16):
but you don't want to lose yourself.
Like there are things you wanna keep and people have to adapt to that.
So it's more about finding the space to share who you are and being OK with that discomfort.
Because the first time you say,
hey,
this is something I want to hold on to and you do it.
It's terrifying.
You don't know what the reaction it's gonna be and sometimes the reaction is not positive.
(16:39):
So you have to be able to sit with that discomfort and be this is how I'm showing up.
This is my,
you know,
embodiment today.
These are the words I'm using and they may not dive completely with what other people feel.
But I want to do it and I want to be able to show up as that.
But I think having an,
I also was very important when I moved here.
I have a friend I met here and I'm like,
(17:00):
when I say wrong words always tell me and I use floor instead of ground or ground instead of floor like things like that,
she always corrects me.
But because I gave her the permission,
it actually helps and no one feels cared to correct in that sense.
So that kind of was also giving me,
you know,
the feedback I need is helping me feel like,
OK,
(17:20):
I am improving in this,
but at the same time,
not feeling judged.
So if I were to kind of recap high level of civil,
a self acceptance,
um having an ally,
someone to support you and just kind of be like,
hey,
I've got you and the good things and I've got you on the feedback.
And then the third one,
which I think is also important,
being able to be uncomfortable with staying yourself where you want to.
(17:48):
That is just beautifully put.
Wow.
And,
and you've experienced it and isn't that what we want?
We want to be ourselves no matter where we are,
but how we express ourselves,
you can legitimately genuinely be yourself,
but sometimes in a different setting or of course,
in a different culture,
the expression of that in order to communicate to others is going to need to change.
(18:11):
And so that level of acceptance,
self,
acceptance,
grace on yourself and grace on others as they are getting used to you,
just like when we do any sort of job change,
there's that,
that period of how does this person work,
how do they communicate?
Uh how do we work well together?
Of course,
there's this extra layer as,
as you've communicated when you are,
(18:33):
when you are changing culture.
So just as you would have grace on the people that are getting to know you setting up those conversations and giving people permission,
have you dealt much with people trying to correct you that you don't want that kind of input or that relationship from them and how have you dealt with that?
Oh,
yeah,
(18:53):
I've had some of some really awkward conversations.
I think I've,
I mean,
I've been lucky as like no one in my really close circle has done something that has um hurt me.
So when people in general,
honestly,
it becomes a kind of humorous story that I share around with my friends as like an example because I feel it's not,
(19:14):
I mean,
for me it's not worth it.
There are people who are going to be like that.
I'm not looking to change anyone.
And for me,
it doesn't matter as much.
I think it's harder when it's someone that's close to you is,
you know,
kind of being insensitive in those things.
And I have been lucky enough that I have not really had that happen.
And if it had,
like,
I'm trying to recall right now,
if it had,
(19:34):
there's always been a conversation afterward,
either an apology from the other person or me trying to state exactly why that was insensitive.
It wasn't working and to a sense as a person,
I'm,
you know,
being a coach,
I'm a good listener and I'm a good kind of like understanding of I'm a bit understanding of others.
(19:54):
So I get the limitations of people.
And if I know someone is within those limitations,
I am not trying to change them.
I do however believe in boundaries.
So if I am understanding of someone whose limitations cannot um work with who I am,
(20:14):
I will put stricter boundaries to protect myself and not expose myself to hurtful um conversation.
I'll be very respectful,
very accepting,
but there's a difference between being respectful and accepting and allowing harm to yourself.
So I think there needs to be a,
you know,
a good way to deal with that.
Like you can be respectful,
you can be understanding but also say,
(20:36):
hey,
I need to limit contact or I need to find a way where there isn't,
you know,
a very deep relationship with this person because what they do is hurting me and it does not,
you know,
drive with my values or with who I am as a person go.
So many wonderful things in there.
And I like that you said that you realize that people have limitations,
which is 100% true.
(20:56):
Right.
Nobody is perfect.
We all have blind spots and I hope that we are all in the process.
I,
I believe we're all in process and hopefully we are emotionally developing,
morally developing.
And I think sometimes when we come into work,
we put this burden on others as if they ought to be perfect and they ought to always get it right.
(21:17):
And if they don't,
it's because they don't care about me,
they don't see me.
They are,
you know,
they are not acting correctly and maybe that's true.
But that recognition that what it means to be a human person is that we're imperfect and what do we do with that recognition?
How do we move forward?
(21:37):
How do we allow grace to others?
But also as you said,
having boundaries,
right?
And that's what everybody gets to decide for themselves,
what their boundaries are,
how they're going to enforce them,
how they're going to move those boundaries,
depending on the situation and everybody gets to do that.
And so when somebody is maybe doing something that is crossing your boundaries at work or other places that you get to decide what to do next.
(22:04):
But that recognition of the fallible nature of the people that we work with and the people in our lives,
if you have that perspective,
I think it can help you sort of reframe what has happened at work that barb that not being invited to lunch,
that someone taking credit for something that you've done,
not that it doesn't need to be addressed,
(22:25):
but it could be understood in this human context instead of I'm being attacked by this person who is in a way,
um,
a caricature of a person,
you know,
that they,
they aren't a per person with a back story and they're trying to make it in the world too.
So I thought that was,
that was really,
really well put.
(22:45):
Thank you.
And you know,
I always look at it this way,
whether I am coaching someone through it or I'm facing it myself is something happens and it triggers me or triggers someone.
I take a step back and I always think what triggered me,
what was it?
Did I feel I know myself like if I feel disrespected,
if I feel my opinion wasn't taken,
like I know the things that will trigger me and I'm like,
(23:06):
ok,
this is what happened.
And then I look at the other person,
what are their needs?
What are they trying to do?
Do they need the appreciation?
Is that what they were trying,
you know,
to get out of this conversation?
Do they need to feel like they have control?
What is the need that they have?
What are their motivations are their motivations?
Because not everyone's motivation is just to get the job done,
which even including me,
(23:27):
like we have motivations when we're doing a certain job,
maybe we like things to be very detailed or maybe we like things a certain way.
So what are our motivations and what are our communication styles?
Like if someone is very direct,
it does not mean that they're attacking could be that this is simply how they communicate.
So being able to create this kind of framework for yourself.
(23:48):
First of all,
saves you a lot of headaches,
saves you a lot of um unnecessary,
you know,
elong elongated emotions because you could be angry in the moment,
work through it,
understand what happened,
maybe talk through it with a friend but not have to elongate and just kind of like ruminate on your mind where it's like they did this,
they don't care or whatever it could simply be.
(24:08):
They did this because they had a bad day.
You know,
they fell in the morning.
They are people who are very direct or they felt like their own autonomy,
their own freedom was not,
you know,
accounted for in that conversation,
whether correctly or incorrectly.
But this is their perspective.
And I think this is not about saying who's right because that doesn't really matter.
(24:30):
It's about understanding what is happening on their side,
what is happening on your side and then you could make whatever decision you want.
Like it could be completely stepping out and being this doesn't work for me or it could be engaging and trying to fix it.
But you have so much more power and like we said earlier,
the options are more,
are bigger instead of saying,
hey,
(24:50):
I want to change you and I want you to be this way because that never really works.
I mean,
try to,
you know,
fell multiple times trying to do that.
It never works.
That's right.
There is so much freedom in not trying to get the other person to agree that you are right,
if we are not out there trying to make everybody see reality the way that we see it,
(25:11):
even though we're right and they're wrong in the end for human relationships.
It doesn't really matter.
It's how are we going to move forward?
How can,
especially at work,
how can we work together so that we both have a respectful,
peaceful work environment and that we could do great work,
right?
And I think once we,
we I'm talking to myself because I have this very strong sense of justice and I want people to do a certain thing and I want people to see the world a certain way.
(25:37):
But once I let that go and really,
you know,
what does it mean to live and let live?
What does it really mean to respect the autonomy of another person?
What does it really mean to wish someone well and still be in a relationship where I feel like they are not seeing the facts the way that I'm seeing them and I get to decide whether or not that bothers me.
(26:00):
I get to decide how to move forward,
as you said,
move forward with this relationship,
put up boundaries or,
or put different boundaries in place.
But that is very freeing.
When we see at work,
we can work,
we can address certain sorts of behaviors,
but you know,
the having to agree on the truth,
(26:22):
whatever that may be is really secondary where many times we put that front and center.
But it's a diversion,
I think.
Yeah,
and I wanna just make sure that some um a message is coming across is that there are cases where like you do really need to go to hr you really need to go to someone because I mean,
I've had that happen to me where like there are things that cannot be said,
(26:45):
behaviors that cannot be accepted.
And that is not in that,
I mean,
it is in that category in the sense of like you have to accept the situation and not let it affect you for your own mental health,
but it does not mean that you have to live with the abuse.
Um And that could be from like going to hr talking to your manager.
Um And if all of that doesn't work simply sometimes changing workplace,
(27:05):
like there are options within this realm of trying to work through the conflict.
But there are,
there are times where you simply could walk away and that is completely understandable because some,
and,
and I think it's very difficult to know what the limitations are.
I think it depends also on the company's policies and who you are as a person.
(27:25):
Um,
but I think it's very important for people to know that they do not have to stay somewhere where they are feeling abuse if that is,
you know,
what is happening,
that they have a choice.
Oh,
absolutely.
And we think about when you were talking just now,
I was thinking about gas lighting and gas lighting is all about somebody intentionally or unintentionally trying to mess with the facts and,
(27:48):
and make it so that you are become vulnerable and depend and question yourself and there's a variety of things and I think when you get out of ok,
this person is saying this and I don't believe this is true.
I don't need to convince them.
I think it can,
it can take the power away from the gas lighter and it puts it back in you.
What am I going to do now?
(28:09):
Exactly.
When do I need to talk to my boss's boss?
When do I need to talk to my boss or hr,
or change jobs?
Absolutely.
100% no one should take abuse.
And sometimes though when it's verbal or something like gas lighting,
it's,
it's harder to see because sometimes that's like a,
the boiling water.
You don't even really know it until and until you're,
(28:30):
you're really in it and you realize,
oh,
this person has been lying to me doesn't have my back.
They are manipulating and hurting me.
And what do I do now?
And this is why I always encourage my clients to either have a peer that they talk to they ruminate with.
I love this kind of idea of just sitting and saying things rawly the way they are,
(28:50):
even if they're ugly.
But knowing this person is not judging you and you're really not judging when you're talking,
you're just letting things out whether it's a peer,
whether sometimes there are a lot of companies that offer communities just community meeting where you can come out and be like,
hey,
this is what's happening just to take another opinion because like you said,
sometimes we could not even know that we're being gas lighted or we don't understand that this isn't normal.
(29:14):
Like my first job,
I didn't know this was not normal.
So having these conversations could give you um also that power to know,
first of all,
to feel supported and to know what is really maybe an exaggeration sometimes or what is really truly correct or you should be acting on.
Yes.
And I think it can go the other way too.
(29:35):
When you're new to the workforce,
you might be asked to do something that you think that doesn't sound right and it turns out it's actually best practice industry standard and you weren't aware of it and maybe you don't like it.
But there's a lot of things we do at work that we don't like and being able to say that and having somebody who says,
oh no,
well,
that is standard for these reasons or how can you get support so that you can move forward in,
(29:56):
in this area.
So I think it can work both ways with that litmus test to sometimes we inflate things because of what has happened to us in the past or because of a variety of issues and someone can help us to deescalates to really put it in perspective,
right?
What,
what has really happened here so that we can you may help us to be maybe a little bit more alarmed than we are like,
(30:18):
oh,
this needs to be addressed or this is something that you can address because it's more of a you issue and help you develop as a professional in the work environment.
Yeah,
100%.
I love that.
I like that.
You mentioned early on in our conversation about a willingness to be uncomfortable and many times we flee from being uncomfortable.
(30:40):
There's so many different diversions,
we can pull out our phone and get on social media.
We can,
you know,
lose ourselves in,
in books or in different kinds of media,
we can numb ourselves with drugs and alcohol,
we can deny it.
Push it down because we don't want to feel uncomfortable and yet what a weird expectation that we shouldn't feel uncomfortable.
(31:05):
Can you talk a little bit about,
about your decision or your or your view that being uncomfortable is not bad but getting comfortable with the uncomfortable?
Yeah.
So a lot of the work that I do actually is body based in the sense of like when you're talking about being uncomfortable with emotions,
it is all about the body.
You are not thinking your emotions,
(31:26):
you're feeling them.
Like when when you say pain strucks,
you're actually feeling pain in your body and making sure that you can sit with this emotion and be like this is not the,
this isn't the end of the world and kind of also augmenting your body's capacity because sometimes we start with a very low capacity for pain,
(31:47):
not necessarily pain,
but this and then we grow it like being able to sit knowing that right now,
maybe,
you know,
I'm afraid of feeling humiliated,
humiliated or whatever emotion and being able to breathe through it and let that spread through my body without me having to react is very important.
And the reason why I say it is very important is because emotions are not always correct.
(32:13):
They could be false alarms.
We are evolutionary speaking,
we are,
you know,
used to kind of sometimes reacting to fear to anger and all of these things when our needs are not met but our needs not being like this kind of thinking does not mean it's getting you where you want to be.
If you are trying for example,
(32:33):
to succeed at work and be a good leader,
it could be mean sometimes having to talk to someone and fire them,
which means that you are uncomfortable and afraid.
And if you don't,
you know,
have that conversation,
you're not going to get to your goal,
which is fine.
You could say I don't want to,
I'm not gonna become this leader.
But if you have values and goals you want to reach,
you have to go through that motion,
(32:55):
you have to go through augmenting your body's,
you know,
capacity to handle that discomfort.
There's no other way around it.
And I get a lot of clients that want to remove the fear or want to remove the emotions.
And,
you know,
maybe we can work to kind of reduce our reactivity or reduce our um you know,
sensitivity to certain emotions.
But we can never get to a point where we're like,
(33:17):
oh great.
I'm gonna go fire someone and be happy about it.
I mean,
that is also not something you want to reach.
No,
I mean,
and I'm giving this example because I feel it,
everyone will relate to it.
It's extreme.
But there are a lot of other smaller examples such as talking to your boss or having a difficult conversations.
But if you are trying really to achieve goals or live through your values.
(33:42):
You will always have difficult emotions and I always tell my clients you don't have to do it.
You can stay only comfortable if you're ok with it.
But the moment you have big goals,
the moment you have things you want to achieve,
there's no way around it.
Yeah.
And even that desire to stay safe and not to have emotions is going to give you negative emotions because then you're going to be frustrated and you're going to have that sort of dissonance within yourself.
(34:08):
And so there's no way around difficult emotions.
Either you decide to deal with them in a healthy fruitful way or you don't.
And so then it makes it,
then you're gonna have more difficult emotions and of course you can deny them and stuff them down,
but then you're gonna,
they,
they're still there and they come out somehow.
(34:28):
So you're going to be dealing with them consciously or unconsciously,
why not do it in a way that actually is commiserate with your values in a way that helps you achieve the next,
I've been working on understanding my emotions and I'm very bad at it.
Uh We all are welcome to the club in my uh I live in Tennessee and we had this big ice storm and um my basement flooded and I'm like,
(34:59):
ok,
well,
this is very high stress,
you know,
uh Tennessee never freezes for a whole week.
Like below,
you know,
temperatures and um all the plumbers,
all of this,
you know,
they have been working to capacity and no one to come out.
And my husband and I are just,
you know,
like,
uh what's,
and of course we found it on a Friday night.
And so it's the weekend and,
(35:21):
and so I said,
ok,
Mary,
this is an opportunity to deal with this high stress situation to feel the feelings.
What do you feel?
And I was laying in my bed and I'm like,
OK,
I feel this,
I feel this now,
I'm like,
OK,
go ahead and feel it,
feel it in your body.
I like trying to name them intellectually.
And II,
I,
so I'm a philosopher and I taught philosophy for a very long time and,
(35:44):
and as a philosopher,
you intellectualize everything is in this,
this world up here.
Very rare.
I mean,
well,
that's just what you do.
That's,
and so I've trained myself to take apart arguments in this very analytical way.
And now trying to find my body,
like I know her conflict hits me in my body.
(36:04):
I,
I know that but trying to integrate the knowledge of,
oh you feel this way,
you feel that way but moving it from the intellect into like,
where is it look like feeling it?
I'm still trying to figure out how would I feel it?
I don't know.
OK,
a few tips on that.
Yes.
OK.
First of all starting from what am I feeling?
(36:26):
Trying to find the word first makes it harder because you have a tendency to go towards the intellectual part.
So you wanna think,
what am I sensing?
Instead of thinking of like going towards I'm feeling afraid.
What am I sensing?
I'm sensing this.
So what you're looking is not a word.
What you're looking for is the sensation itself.
(36:46):
Whatever that sensation means,
it could be any emotion,
it could be the,
whatever emotion it doesn't matter because you're training your body with sensation.
A lot of things to do is to try uh putting music on and just moving because you are putting yourself in your body and in a way where you don't have to think like you're not at the beginning,
it's gonna be hard because a lot of my clients are like,
what do I do now?
(37:07):
I'm like,
just do it and it takes time but like just learning how to not be in your mind by moving.
Sometimes I do a freefall writing which is basically you give yourself a minute and then you have to write nonstop.
So you can't pull out the pen to think.
You just,
you know,
if you think banana strawberry,
whatever words are coming to your mind,
you just write them down.
(37:28):
Um that helps your body,
sorry,
that helps your um mind detach a bit.
So it's not about going through you.
You know,
I feel also if you're thinking about emotions and especially difficult ones.
What you're pushing your body to do is to feel something that is difficult.
(37:50):
What I always like to do is to create the habit of connecting to your body,
not going directly to the difficult one.
So how do you learn to connect your body so that you have that capacity?
And then you start when emotions start to come up and you understand sensations and you understand that you don't have to be here.
It becomes easier,
but you have to build the habit first because trying to go towards sensations first and strong sensations,
(38:16):
I I wouldn't like if I,
if it were my mind,
I'd be like,
yeah,
no,
I don't want to do this.
This is too unfamiliar,
too difficult.
So I think learning to train how to be connected to the body through everything,
through movement,
through activities,
through breathing,
um through simply doing creative stuff helps create that disconnection and always thinking of sensations instead of emotions because we're so trained for words,
(38:41):
sensations is more like,
you know,
high energy at thing going.
So it kind of pushes us to be more um body centered than mind centered.
Thank you very much.
That's very helpful.
I will be playing this back several times and taking notes,
but I love you.
You've mentioned this several times about building capacity and I think it's the same thing with conflict if you have a conflict at work uh,
(39:06):
and you're learning how to deal with conflict in a,
in a win win,
restorative way.
Don't pick the big thing that's been going on for six months a year.
Pick the very small thing.
At first,
I would say practice with somebody who is a friend,
you know,
practice with somebody who either you're not even having a conflict but just even getting the words out.
What would it feel like?
(39:26):
How am I gonna,
how,
how am I going to put the tools I've learned into practice to having a conversation and then maybe move on to once you kind of get that rhythm down,
what feels right for you,
maybe try something really small that has happened with that friend.
Like you said,
we were gonna go here but you rescheduled that hurt my feelings,
(39:48):
tell me what's going on,
right?
Someone that you really trust and it's even in that relationship,
it's low stakes getting some confidence and developing your courage by working very,
in a very small way to develop those capacities,
those competencies so that you can talk to your boss or eventually,
you know,
(40:08):
those the the bigger issues.
But you,
you know,
yes,
I do want to start big,
right?
So I could use that same advice with conflict to try to understand my emotional responses.
Thank you very much.
100%.
We always like,
we're always so excited about being able to reach change.
Um But if you don't do the practice technique.
You know,
(40:28):
most athletes,
dancers,
people who have activities know that like if you really want to improve,
you need this kind of like a small thing that your body and mind can handle.
Like your capacity is not suddenly being overloaded.
Yes,
absolutely.
So when you think about the different relationships you've had at work,
can you tell us about a conflict that you had with another person and how you dealt with it?
(40:52):
Yeah,
of course,
let's see.
Pick a good 11 of my managers at this company right now that I work with,
have a very good ongoing relationships.
I think we both speak the language of being able to be in conflict like he is so good,
like I feel like he strives on conflict.
I've never met someone like that and it's so interesting and so beautiful and I am not conflict averse,
(41:17):
but I am not like a strive and conflict kind of person like I would not run towards conflict.
So I,
you know,
I go into his office and he has this thing where he tends to take everything you do and break it down to pieces and then rebuild it himself.
And at first it was kind of difficult,
but then I understood that this is his way.
(41:38):
So and it would frustrate me because I would sit there and he's,
you know,
taking it apart and I'm trying to say my word and he gets frustrated when I'm trying to speak and kind of like it feels to him like I'm interrupting.
So one day we were both like,
ok,
we need a break.
So we took some space and then we got back and we were like,
what would work?
So we made a decision.
Both of us talk through it where it's like we need to avoid this frustration.
(42:02):
You get frustrated when I,
you know,
go in and start talking things like that.
So he'd look at me and he'd be like,
let me finish.
So we agreed that whenever he feels that he can just say this and then we agreed that whenever I feel I am frustrated by him being too much in the weeds,
I could say like I can do this or I would just not go into his office when he's reviewing it.
(42:22):
He would call me after he's done.
So I don't feel like I'm,
you know,
in the moment with him when that in the things that will frustrate me.
So if I were to break that apart,
it was more taking space,
understanding what is frustrating each one of us and why and then finding solutions that would not feel disrespectful to the other person and that could be applied.
(42:47):
Um Instead of like,
if it kept escalating,
we were gonna get to a point where we had a bad relationship where we were constantly,
you know,
either snapping at each other or things like that.
So I feel that helped us come to the right resolution.
Um And I think we keep doing it all the time whenever something comes up,
like we just handle it that way.
What a wonderful example I would say first,
(43:08):
it started with the fact that you had a,
a good working relationship.
And that's where I think conflict resolution begins from day one,
building your relationships.
So that when you real,
when you notice that something is happening and you will have conflict,
conflict is normal,
you notice it in time to not so damage a relationship that you decide it's not worth saving or you know,
(43:32):
the longer you let something faster,
the more you have to do to repair it.
So you started with the foundation of mutual respect,
realize something's going on and then came to a win win solution.
It wasn't he won or you won,
you won together.
And that's,
that's the only way to do it in any kind of relationship.
(43:52):
If one person wins,
everybody loses.
But finding that what works genuinely works both for you,
which is not a compromise.
It's addressing each person's needs,
understanding and willing to work with the other person so that you can continue in a fruitful,
a fruitful way.
And I love that example because it also highlights that just because you have a good relationship now,
(44:14):
doesn't mean that something difficult isn't gonna come your way.
It probably will.
So prepare now to deal with it,
but deal with it.
Yeah,
100%.
And something interesting you said is that we had a good relationship.
We did a lot of work of,
you know,
taking lunch breaks and just going,
having lunch and talking about complete,
like,
things are relevant to work just to kind of connect on a human level.
(44:36):
So when I am frustrated,
I'm not just seeing someone who is,
you know,
giving me instructions or asking me to do things.
I'm seeing a human being,
a complete human being with,
you know,
their likes and their dislikes.
And I think that is super important to learn how to build,
you know,
a professional outside of work relationship just to kind of create this kind of connection that allows you to have difficult conversations.
(45:00):
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of lost in the world of work right now as if the quote unquote water cooler talk is unnecessary and it's an infringing now.
I don't think that anybody should talk about anything that they don't want to talk about work.
We can he have our boundaries,
but we all have to figure out how to make those human connections because at the end of the day,
everyone's a human first and a colleague,
(45:21):
second or a boss,
second to develop those relationships that are,
you know,
where we recognize the other person as a full person,
as you said.
So that when we have something that's difficult,
we are able to connect and we're able to make that forward motion.
But to think that if I just see this other person as this cardboard cut out,
(45:41):
it's so easy to villainize them,
to become the victim in that scenario and to,
to have,
get a given to despair and not even have the conversation because I don't,
haven't laid the foundation to be able to do something difficult with that person.
Yeah,
100% very important.
(46:01):
So when you look into the future of work,
what do you think needs to happen?
So that not only is everyone treated with dignity and respect,
but that people are encouraged to thrive and flourish at work.
I think the first thing which is very important is creating a level of trust and that comes from humanizing each other.
(46:22):
I think we have got sometimes we go into this not dehumanizing,
but like you said,
like the cardboard version of a person.
So I think making sure especially with the remote work,
making sure that we are giving enough opportunities to just reach out to people,
even if we're not working with them on a daily basis to create those connections to have this kind of um you know,
(46:44):
habit of talking to people just for the simple act of talking.
And again,
we're not saying people should share every little detail about what their lives,
but share things that you're comfortable with and like understand that everyone around you is human.
And also by creating a level of trust,
I think it's,
you know,
the company coming up with ideas,
(47:05):
whether it's communication styles.
Like I,
I've heard of companies that have whatever personality test they choose but they have like on everyone's um desk like,
hey,
that their type of communication,
it doesn't have to be this extreme.
But allowing people to say this is how I communicate,
allowing people to come as they are.
And I think it has to come,
you know,
from up down,
(47:25):
rather from down,
up to kind of provide that level of safety.
Uh So people feel like they can talk the way they want to feel like they could be accepted and they can speak up.
And I think the third thing is community,
like providing a sense of community,
whether it's,
you know,
group for women or group for,
it doesn't have to be even this segregated,
it could be anything,
just go sports game like a group that does always sports together.
(47:49):
I think that helps also,
you know,
provide a level of support for every employee.
And I think the final thing is investing in helping employees communicate better,
investing in this skill because a lot of people maybe,
you know,
are better at it the way they grew up how they were trained,
but not everyone is.
So I would say,
(48:10):
you know,
learning how to create trust by building fun relationships with others.
And investing in that,
giving the people permission to express how they communicate who they are,
especially in a professional setting and then investing in,
you know,
training people on how to speak to each other and how to solve conflict.
I think those three things will go a long way,
(48:30):
especially with us moving a lot into remote work,
great advice.
It sounds,
sounds like we should do those things.
Absolutely to have healthier work environments.
Well,
thank you so much for being on conflict managed.
I really have enjoyed our conversation.
Yeah,
so have I thank you.
Zeina,
Thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed.
I certainly will put your suggestions into place or at least work on it to develop my own emotional capacity.
(48:54):
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If there's someone you would like to see interviewed on Conflict Managed or you would like to be interviewed on Conflict Managed,
please drop us a line.
You can reach us at 3Pconflictrestoration@gmail.com.
(49:17):
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time,
take care,
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