March 12, 2024 • 61 mins
🎙️ This week on Conflict Managed, we welcome Karen Valencic, founder and president of Spiral Impact, Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Aikidoist.
Join us as we discuss:
😵💫 The confusing nature of unmanaged conflict 🌸 Kindness in place of niceness 🌀🕊️ The Spiral Method of conflict management 🧐 The cure of curiosity 💡 Honoring colleagues with questions 🔄 Generational differences
Karen Valencic (Vuh-len-sick) is not just a speaker and business leader; she's a transformative force in the world of conflict mastery and leadership. Can you imagine a business environment, or a WORLD, in which people, despite conflict, get their work done with ease and grace? Bringing this to reality is Karen's mission. With over three decades of experience, Karen has honed her craft, blending her expertise in science, martial arts, and communication to create the groundbreaking Spiral Impact® method.
As the President of Spiral Impact, Karen brings a unique perspective to performance improvement for leaders and teams. Her method, Spiral Impact®, offers a simple yet profound way to master conflict, foster collaboration, and solve problems with grace. Through her books, including the best selling Black Belt Edition of Spiral Impact, Karen provides tangible tools and insights to empower individuals and teams to navigate challenging situations with ease.
Karen's journey from corporate engineer to performance improvement expert is as inspiring as it is unconventional. With a background in mechanical engineering and a career at Delco Remy, a division of General Motors, Karen was one of the first female engineers in her field. Drawing inspiration from her experiences in engineering and her dedication to aikido, the Japanese art of reconciliation, Karen developed Spiral Impact® to help individuals and organizations thrive in the face of conflict and change.
Beyond her undoubtable expertise in her field, Karen is also a distinguished speaker. Karen speaks nationally at all types of conferences and is known for her entertaining, audience-involving presentations, which are full of actionable insights that individuals and teams can put straight to use.
You can find Karen online:
http://www.spiralimpact.com/
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services. www.3pconflictrestoration.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight.
Jack.
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
(00:24):
I'm your host Merry Brown. Today on Conflict Managed we welcome Karen Valencic.
Karen is not just a speaker and business leader.
She's a transformative force in the world of conflict.
Mastery and leadership.
Can you imagine a business environment or a world in which people despite conflict get their work done with ease and grace.
Bringing this to reality is Karen's mission with over three decades of experience.
(00:46):
Karen has honed her craft,
blending her expertise in science,
martial arts and communication to create the groundbreaking Spiral Impact method.
As the president of Spiral Impact,
Karen brings a unique perspective to performance improvement for leaders and teams.
Her method.
Spiral Impact offers a simple yet profound way to master conflict,
(01:07):
foster collaboration and solve problems with grace.
Through her books,
including the best selling Black belt edition of Spiral Impact.
Karen provides tangible tools and insights to empower individuals and teams to navigate challenging situations with ease.
Karen's journey from corporate engineer to performance improvement.
Expert is as inspiring as it is unconventional with a background in mechanical engineering and a career at Delco Remy,
(01:33):
a division of General Motors Karin was one of the first female engineers in her field,
drawing inspiration from her experiences in engineering and her dedication to Akito,
the Japanese art of reconciliation.
Karen developed viral impact to help individuals and organizations thrive in the face of conflict and change.
Karen is also a distinguished speaker.
(01:53):
Karen speaks nationally at all types of conferences and is known for her entertaining audience involving presentations which are full of actionable insights that individuals and teams can put straight to use.
Good morning,
Karen and welcome to conflict managed.
Oh,
I'm,
I'm thrilled to be here,
Mary.
Thanks for inviting me.
Absolutely.
It's,
it's nice that the weather is starting to change and um it's sunny here in Tennessee and how about where you are?
(02:19):
I am in Indianapolis and I have to say today it's kind of rainy,
but the last two days have been in the seventies and sunny.
So it's been fantastic.
I always forget how much the sun means to me and most of us when it's not around.
Yes,
I,
I get it.
I get it and I have to say that I just came back from Central America and it was sunny every day there last Saturday it was like really dreary and gray.
(02:47):
So the sun makes a huge difference.
Yeah,
it's your desk.
Well,
I'm so excited to talk with you today and I'm interested in your spiral method and what you're up to.
But let's start with just you.
Can you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
The first job as a young person,
not like professional,
but as a job job.
Yes.
(03:08):
Well,
I baby sat,
um,
was probably my first job but in terms of actually an actual employer,
I worked at a fish and chips place,
you know,
it was called H salt Fish and Chips.
I don't think they're around anymore.
But,
yeah,
I sold fried fish and chips and that was a job.
I,
I enjoyed,
although every time I went home from that work I had to really take a shower.
(03:32):
I smelled so bad.
So,
what was that like?
Um,
your first sort of,
you know,
paid employment beyond babysitting or what was the work environment like?
You know,
I really had fun there.
I,
it was a fun work environment.
We,
you know,
we serve customers,
we cooked fish,
we kind of all did everything and it was actually,
(03:52):
it was a very fun environment.
So I,
I enjoyed it.
Of course,
I didn't enjoy smelling like fish and I,
I certainly wanted to make more money than I was making there.
So,
yeah.
Do you remember,
what do you remember about the management?
Yeah,
I remember always feeling supported and valued by the management there.
That was not a high conflict place.
Um,
(04:13):
it was,
uh,
it was,
and actually I remember I rode my bike there to work.
So um it was,
it was a good positive first experience in my work.
Now,
after that,
when I was still in high school,
I went on to work at a department store that I found to be a different experience.
And that while I,
(04:35):
I um I like my colleagues dealing with customers in that environment was a little bit more,
there was a little bit more conflict involved in that.
And honestly,
I gosh,
I haven't thought about this for years.
I ended up being let go from that job.
Um And I really felt like it was because my supervisor was hitting on me and I did not,
(04:58):
you know,
I did not go out with him and I ended up,
he just took me off the calendar and without a word.
And so that was not very pleasant experience.
So,
wow,
what,
what two different experiences,
you know,
when you talk about the first one,
anytime you work with food and you're working with customers and sometimes you've got these lines and it can be very high pressure and yet it really,
(05:20):
it doesn't have to be,
in other words,
you can have high pressure but still be a good work environment being run smoothly.
Collegial.
Right.
Well,
and I think in that food environment too,
I,
you know,
it was a fast food restaurant.
So,
and I think the environment I was in was just a really fun,
fun environment,
you know,
in high school too I had a job at a drugstore.
(05:42):
I guess I have more.
I haven't thought about these early jobs,
Mary for a long time.
But I also worked in a drugstore,
which was maybe one of my favorite jobs as a young person,
um,
in high school.
And it,
we,
again,
we had a,
a huge camaraderie with the people that I worked with and the people that would come through were always very friendly.
(06:03):
And it,
it was a,
it was a very good,
positive work environment and it makes all the difference.
And I think people that come through that line really feel it.
And,
you know,
I noticed that with places I shop today and I tend to go more towards places where the environment is really great.
Trader Joe's is a great example of that.
(06:25):
I always feel uplifted when I go there.
And that's not true with every grocery store I go to and,
and,
and that's all culture.
It's all culture.
It is so true.
Sometimes we say to ourselves it's the job.
It's because I'm doing this kind of job that it's going to be dreary or difficult or not collegial.
(06:47):
And that's just not true at all.
It's not the work.
It's,
it's the people,
it's the people and it's also I think what we bring to it because I think I,
I think I could probably do anything and be happy in it because I,
that's just kind of how I'm wired.
Um Unless it's incredibly stressful,
I can't say I would,
I love babysitting.
(07:08):
I was not,
that was,
to me was really difficult work.
So,
yeah,
so,
um but,
you know,
from there I went on,
you know,
I went to school and I studied engineering and I,
that was um and,
and I love that and I was really grateful to have the opportunity to co op my way through school.
(07:33):
So I,
I worked for a division of General Motors and General Motors was very um advanced in terms of work,
study cooper of type programs.
Um Way before I think a lot of other places were.
And I had,
you know,
I had such a mix of experience in that and when I was a student,
it was fantastic.
Um I found that 98% of the people I worked with were all about helping me grow as an engineer.
(08:01):
And it,
it was a,
a such a fantastic,
fantastic opportunity.
And then I,
I went on to experience um some other difficulties in that work.
And I should say,
you know,
I was one of the,
I was one of the very first and I was the first in my department which was product design and development,
(08:21):
women engineers where I worked.
So I was uh a little bit of an anomaly which,
which didn't seem odd to me because I grew up with brothers and of course,
I was in school with mostly men.
So that was not an unusual experience for me.
But I,
but I did find my first really frustrating conflict in that work and I'd love to share it if you did because,
(08:48):
you know,
I,
I know we,
a lot of us in this field of conflict.
Um we talk about toxic work environments and there are really toxic work environments,
but there are some work environments that really don't go to the toxic level,
but also really don't bring out the best in people.
And so the my first experience with really difficult conflict in that role,
(09:12):
I had what we call back then,
a straw boss who was a person that was,
you know,
some people might call a supervisor.
He did not do my annual review.
He wasn't my boss boss.
He sat between me and my regular boss and he was a very smart guy.
He was very detailed and he was very controlling.
(09:33):
And I found in that work that I was,
I was micromanaged and I felt a lot of his,
the way he communicated really kind of made me diminished how I felt about myself.
And I,
you know,
I've struggled with that and I really didn't know what to do about it.
And um and then I did talk to my regular boss about it in my annual and I told him I said,
(09:59):
you know,
I,
I,
I'm enjoying the work,
but I'm really having difficulty working with,
with Larry,
I'll call him Larry.
Um,
but,
um,
but he,
he was very concerned about that and he said,
well,
I'll see what I can do and I,
but he didn't have any advice for me.
And I really,
at that point in the work world,
(10:20):
there weren't coaches,
there weren't anything like that.
And so I was somehow hoping that he would help me in some way,
but nothing ever transpired there.
And then one day we were all sitting and we were kind of in a work space with,
I don't know,
probably 68 people in a space.
And Larry was sitting there with ac couple of customers and all of a sudden he went,
(10:40):
Karen,
you didn't do what I told you to do and,
you know,
it was some kind of minor thing around,
how about going to do something.
But what at that moment,
at that moment was a turning point for me and I stood up and I said,
you know,
we don't have,
I said,
you know,
we don't have to keep working together.
(11:02):
I know this isn't working out for you and it's really not working out for me.
And I said,
we don't have to continue this.
And I left and I,
I felt just really at peace with that.
But then when I came back in the,
in the room,
um,
he caught me and he said,
we need to go talk to our boss.
And so we went into my boss's office and Larry said,
(11:23):
you know,
we had an incident out there and you need to know about it.
And,
and he looked at me,
he says,
Karen,
tell him what happened.
And I said to my boss,
I said,
you know,
you and I have already discussed the difficulties I've been having working with Larry and I said,
I really don't have anything else to say.
And so it was,
it was um um and you know,
(11:43):
and honestly,
what I said,
based upon,
you know,
I was in my twenties back then and based upon my experience now,
what I said to him wasn't awful.
I was stating a fact is this isn't working very well.
And so,
but what's interesting,
what happened there,
Mary is I got called down to the chief engineer's office in the corner office and I got told I would have a black mark on my record if I didn't turn myself around in the next six months.
(12:12):
And it was interesting because I got no advice,
no support,
nothing.
It was just like you need to figure this out.
And,
you know,
and I was a study person and I always was a high performer and it was really confusing to me.
But long story short,
I ended up transferring to a different department down the hall and it was a totally different culture.
(12:33):
It was totally different culture,
the man I worked for and I'll say his name,
his name is Robert Johnson.
He,
he was a known as kind of a tough person,
but he was fantastic to work for.
And all the engineers in that office,
we were all very collaborative,
we talked things we created,
it was such a great environment.
(12:54):
And so I look at those two environments and it really informs a lot of what I do today,
which is,
you know,
how do you,
how do you really bring out the best in people?
And I,
one of the engineers I worked with in particular events,
he was such,
he's just modeled what I teach now and I didn't know what it was back then,
but he really modeled it.
(13:15):
And,
and so I have those experiences to go forth to know what's possible in the work I do today.
So,
yeah,
I love several of the things that you mentioned,
one is that it's like we know what good is.
When we see it,
we may not have the words,
but we see when people are excellent leaders and when people are doing the sorts of things that help us grow and flourish.
(13:40):
And as you said,
collaborate and making that kind of environment.
And even if we can't use sort of academic speak or to,
to,
to be able to think about it in that way,
we know it and we respond.
And another thing that you mentioned is that,
you know,
here you are um an educated,
smart woman in this field and you are,
(14:02):
you're doing your work and yet it's confusing that what's going on the dynamics.
Like why is this happening?
I think that's also something that we know,
we know when something is wrong and most of the time it catches us off guard because we're doing our work,
we know that this shouldn't be happening and you even said something and there's no help or resources and we're supposed to figure it out,
(14:27):
but figure out what it is very confusing and then time consuming to try to figure out and navigate the people issues.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And,
and I,
you know,
and I was felt grateful,
you know,
I got a big bonus,
the six months to the day that that whole thing happened.
So I,
(14:47):
whatever I was doing worked.
But I don't know that it was because of me,
I think it was because of the people I was working with.
So,
so anyway,
there,
there we go.
But,
but,
um,
yeah,
so my life changed when I actually was introduced to the martial art aikido,
which really teaches me and informs me in terms of how,
(15:10):
how do I interact to get the best result for not just myself but for the other person involved and,
and that looking at where we get into resistance and how do we move with that so that we can,
we can learn the most we can,
we can create momentum and movement with that.
And that to me is where the magic happens in relationships and on teams.
(15:33):
So how did you find Akito?
How did that come into your life?
You know,
I had read it,
I had read a story in a book many,
many,
many years ago and it was by a man named Terry Dobson and it was called a kind word Turn of the Way Wrath.
And it's been,
it's a story that's been um reprinted many times.
But it was really about a guy that was in Japan.
(15:55):
Aikido is a Japanese martial art based upon position,
not force and as a really radically different martial art than anything else that's out there.
And I read this story and it was really this story about him riding a bus when this big drunk guy got on and started swinging things around and just kind of cut to the chase in the story.
(16:17):
Um The,
the fellow Terry Dobson was studying Aikido and he recognized that we,
you know,
his teacher told him that,
you know,
don't start a fight,
you know,
you don't want to go out looking for fights.
But yet he saw this situation where somebody was really in danger and there were,
there was a young couple with a baby and an older couple there and this guy was just thrashing around and he was drunk and he,
(16:41):
he felt called to action because this was really wrong and he needed to make it right.
And so he stood up and,
and kind of challenged the guy and then right at that moment where he might have moved,
there's all of a sudden this voice that comes out of nowhere and it says,
(17:01):
hey,
and it was just one of those things that interrupted the whole energy of the thing.
And it was a little Japanese man and the guy says,
hey,
again,
and both of them just turned and looked down at this guy who's just sitting there immaculate in his kimono.
And then he says to the drunk,
(17:22):
he says,
hey,
what?
You've been drinking and you know,
just in this really easy vernacular and ended up having a conversation with the drunk and it totally dispelled the entire communication that entire conflict and it was through kind words and questions.
(17:43):
And so the,
the fellow that wrote the story said that,
you know,
then he came to his train stop and what he realized what he thought needed combat was really resolved with kind words.
And that for me had such a huge impression.
Of course,
when I first read that story,
there was no Aikido here and I was always intrigued by it.
(18:05):
But several years later,
I end up going to a dental conference and a man whom you may know about his name is Tom Crum was presenting his work that he called the magic of conflict.
And Tom was an Iquitos.
And that was that moment that I um it really,
my life transformed and I decided to leave my engineering work behind and start this consulting business where I would teach people these concepts.
(18:33):
And of course,
I had a lot to learn because I,
I hadn't integrated with the material yet,
but I came back here and there was a Keto and I,
I've been practicing for 33 years now and it really helps inform the work I do with conflict and that's where that spiral impact comes from.
So,
um,
yeah,
and I studied with Tom for several years and then I've evolved,
(18:56):
he's retired now and I've evolved the work into something that's,
that's different than what he did.
But,
but the same,
at the same time,
so I've,
I've made it my own work and I've added different components to it than,
than what he was teaching way back then.
But,
um but it boils down to Mary,
the difference between force and power.
(19:16):
That's,
that's what it all boils down to and,
and it's really about self development as they were so strong because many times when we were caught in a conflict,
we,
you know,
we,
we are at this heightened state and we are offended in some way and we need to defend ourselves just as the story said,
right?
(19:37):
We need to defend ourselves and our sense of justice,
putting things right in the world and how do I do that by standing my ground?
Right.
In this confrontational,
you can't say that to me.
These are my boundaries,
these are my rights,
rights based language and you're offering it a different path.
(20:00):
Right.
Right.
Right.
And it's interesting,
um because I,
I really love teaching,
I mean,
I do a lot of virtual things,
but when you can demonstrate the simple,
the simplicity of what happens with Aikido and actually,
Mary,
we can demonstrate that right here if you take both of your fists and push them together and you know,
(20:24):
you feel this resistance and as I teach,
which may be different than others is this is conflict,
conflict by definition is to strike together.
And that's what we have here and this is force against force and this,
the strongest person will win this if you go at it this way and it could be physical strength,
(20:47):
psychological strength or professional strength,
it doesn't matter.
But spiral and what I learned in Aikido is you just open one of those,
you open those hands and you just move with it.
And so that's a little difficult when you're solo.
But,
but you get that feeling of letting that resistance melt away.
(21:08):
And so in practicality,
what I do in Aikido is I move in and with so that I end up next to the person and it dissipates all the resistance and you know,
to have conflict,
you have to have something to push against and sometimes that's ourselves.
But all,
a lot of times when we,
what we're talking about is another person and that is where the resistance come comes in.
(21:35):
And when you can study that and recognize when am I pushing,
um,
then you can say,
ok,
let me pause here and do something different,
do something different because the pushing is not gonna get me where I want.
Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely.
You know,
when we are caught in these conflicts and we think,
ok,
you know,
(21:55):
this is what's happening and you are wrong and you need to change and you,
you know,
you're being unprofessional or whatever it is.
I think a lot of what we are pushing against is our own narrative and our own view of the world and whether or not the facts are on our side,
what usually helps is to,
to get out of that,
that push and pull that,
(22:16):
that win,
lose proposition instead of thinking about what is it that I want and what am I going to do?
And so then you're not,
you're not pushing against that other person to change or to move,
it's,
you're moving yourself.
And so then that changes the relationship that you're having with the other,
what you're expecting of the other and what you're expecting of yourself.
(22:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And,
you know,
I often will say to people that will say I'm not going to even bother talking to that person because they will never change.
And you know,
how many times do you hear that a lot in the culture today?
And my question always back is so listen to yourself and are you willing to change?
(23:05):
Because if we go in with the intention of changing the other person's mind,
we will never do it right.
It's that,
you know,
getting into a debate around facts never works because it just creates more resistance.
And if we go in,
if we go into it and,
and I do this,
I mean,
I have had some amazing conversations and transformations for both myself and other people having conversations about some of the really difficult subjects of today that,
(23:36):
you know,
of course,
I don't do that in work environments,
but in terms of,
of having a conversation where you can really open people's eyes up and my own eyes to see things a little differently and,
and understand where,
where we're coming from.
And oftentimes there is not a right or wrong,
there's somewhere in the middle that,
(23:58):
that we really is where the truth rela where the relative truth lives,
I would say so.
Yeah,
there's certainly an art to having a robust set of beliefs that guide us that we really believe to be true and allowing other people to not see what we see.
Yeah.
(24:19):
Right.
Right.
And the more we scream it,
you know,
I worked with a coach a long time ago or I was considering working with a coach a long time ago.
And he told me,
he said,
wouldn't you,
if you had a cure for cancer,
wouldn't you want to get on the rooftops and scream it?
And I said no,
I wouldn't because if I did that,
(24:40):
nobody would believe it,
they wouldn't hear me.
I know that much is if you've got,
you've got that thing and you're so convinced everyone needs it.
Nobody will listen to you.
That's right.
I mean,
communication is more relationship than the words that somebody says.
Right.
How do you make somebody feel?
How does somebody feel around you?
How do you feel around somebody else?
(25:00):
And so we know it's the same words said by different people.
It just strikes us as can be polar opposites,
given the nature of their relationship and the care that's either present or not present.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's a,
it's,
it's a beautiful,
you know,
getting to someone's essence and really,
(25:22):
I,
you know,
I talk a lot about intention in my work and,
and one of those intentions is to have a really deep personal intent and mine is to honor myself and others all at all times.
I mean,
my,
that's my intent and when I come from that intent,
um,
(25:42):
it's,
it's really makes,
it makes people really interesting and makes me very curious and I,
and I love that about people to really be able to connect and really understand somebody and know that we all come,
we all come informed through our background and,
and that's where we come from.
(26:03):
And I think it's fascinating.
We can be fascinated rather than outraged.
That's what we put ourselves in a position of power.
Yes,
I love that.
You know,
curiosity cures so much.
And so would you speak a little bit to this,
to the idea of kindness?
(26:23):
People talk about toxic positivity and they are on the lookout for people policing other people's tone as a way to silence dissent.
I think kindness is always appropriate.
I think holding people accountable for their actions is kind.
So how do you,
do you run into anybody accusing you of wanting to shellack the world and oh,
(26:45):
let's just,
you know,
put a smile on when I know that's not what you're talking about.
But how would you talk about that?
You know,
that's such a great question,
Mary.
I,
I always go back to the thing and actually it's in my book that if the goal is not to be nice,
but it's to be sincere.
And to me sometimes and,
(27:06):
and I'm not using the word kind,
but I could maybe kind is kind to me is more around sincerity than nice.
Nice to seems to be couched in some,
some lies or untruths in some ways.
But kind to me is always,
it's always great to be kind and I think it's always great to be sincere around who you are and,
(27:28):
you know,
I don't get a lot of shellacking around.
I don't get accused of shellacking things in positivity a lot.
And I think part of that is I'm also willing to ask deep questions around things and I am always willing to shift things to see where the opportunity is as well and what the learning is and,
(27:53):
and,
but I don't,
I don't get,
I don't get called on that a lot,
but I think it comes more from really wanting to honor that person with questions and Acknowledgments rather than just saying,
oh,
she's just wonderful.
You know,
it's all,
it's all good,
it's all good.
I had a old colleague of mine that always said it's all good and actually the fact is,
(28:17):
is,
it's not all good,
right?
He demonstrated that to me in a really graphic way once and I was like,
I thought everything was good.
No,
that's right.
Yeah,
that,
that is certainly a hand waving,
you know,
a way of talking about,
you know,
in a way I don't want to talk about it.
I just,
everything is fine,
everything is fine.
You know,
I live in the south and,
(28:38):
you know,
in this country there are different regional differences and,
you know,
this,
this idea of being nice.
I like the distinction of nice and kind and sincere.
And I talked to so many people and I'm sure you do too.
That self described as being conflict diverse and they don't want to deal with conflict,
they're afraid of conflict and a lot of people at least talk to me in the South about they want to be nice.
(29:04):
And there's this,
there's this societal expectation,
especially for women to,
to be nice.
And what I want to help people understand is that to be nice or to be kind is to say the truth,
nobody's going to read your mind and nobody's coming to save you.
You have to take ownership and responsibility for the work situation that you want,
(29:29):
the culture that you want.
And if it's not happening,
what are you going to do about it?
And that means that person who is doing something that you deem to be inappropriate,
it's not nice or kind to sit and take it right?
That,
that shuts down actual authentic relationships.
Mary,
what I find with people is they get caught in not knowing what to say and so they do,
(29:55):
they do,
they kind of go back to just being nice and because they don't,
they don't know what to say.
And I'd say most people don't like to be confrontational and,
and I don't teach confrontation as a way because I do find confrontation does create more resistance.
But I find what I do with people is,
(30:18):
is coaching them again to enter and,
and spiral.
And so,
and what does that look like?
And that looks like,
you know,
I want to see that the world from that person's standpoint.
So it's gonna involve,
it's gonna involve asking questions of myself and of the other person to find out what's really going on.
Because I find sometimes we can react to something and we're reacting out of our own history rather than what really is current and present with what's happening.
(30:47):
So I always encourage people to become,
you know,
again,
it gets back to that curiosity.
Do you really know what that person meant?
Where,
what's behind their response?
And,
you know,
I think there's a lot of people that couch that their,
their world in humor that makes it really hard to come back to and,
(31:09):
but there's always that opportunity to come back and say so what,
what did you actually mean by that?
You know,
tell me more about what,
how you see the situation and,
and so we become again instead of going in and saying,
I don't like what you said about that.
Um That,
that is a different thing whereas I might not like what they said about it.
(31:32):
But if I say,
tell me more about what you're thinking now,
we become in a conversation rather than,
um I'm being defensive over what you said because I find when you can and,
and I don't want to say it's calling somebody out,
but it's really kind of moving in and really learning more about where that person's coming.
(31:53):
Um And so I find that that is that is one thing that people don't know what to do is,
and oftentimes,
um an open in a question is such a great way.
Of course,
as you know,
Mary,
why is a bad question?
Why are you saying that?
But you know,
how did you come to that or what's your experience with this or tell me more about that?
(32:14):
Those are such important questions that can diffuse those things and address a conflict without being confrontational.
I also think that,
uh you know,
one of the things I think that is most missed in conflict is intention and most people aren't thinking about what intention is around when they communicate.
(32:39):
And as I said earlier,
you know,
my intention is to honor myself and others.
And so earlier in my life,
I didn't think about honoring myself.
I only thought about honoring others,
which is that being nice kind of thing,
right?
So I think it's important to really be clear on what your intention in this relationship.
It's like when we talked earlier about how often people will say I'm not gonna,
(33:01):
I'm not gonna even bother because they will never change,
thinking back on what is your intention to change them or to learn about what,
how they see the world,
uh how to make this product better,
how to improve our workflow.
If you can really think what the intention is,
(33:22):
that's,
that's not necessarily specific about the other person.
It really moves you forward.
So did I answer your question?
I,
now I'm thinking,
what was the question?
You?
No,
no,
it's wonderful because as you're talking,
you know what I think I do restoration work.
Right.
So,
of course I do conflict management,
but I'm interested in restoration because we're talking about relationships.
(33:45):
It's not just this one off issue.
We've got this relationship as colleagues because,
you know,
I do workplace conflict resolution and as we think about what is somebody else's intention,
but that self reflective piece,
what is my intention?
It helps us not to focus on this one issue.
(34:05):
As if the issue is the problem,
there's a breakdown in the relationship,
whether it's a communication,
whether it's maybe I'm villainizing the other person for whatever reason.
And so curiosity always helps us to humanize the other,
curiosity about ourselves,
helps us to see what part we're playing in this breakdown.
(34:26):
And I think curiosity and intention helps us to think,
play the long game,
right?
When we think about managing the specific issue is the short is short term as if we get done with whatever this conflict is.
And when we're done with conflict and we have winners and losers.
But when we look at needs and we look to see how can everybody win because we're all still together,
(34:50):
right?
We're still working towards and we need to be able to have a working relationship.
And so it is easier to make somebody a cardboard cut out.
It's easier to say this is who you are in the short term.
It is not easier in the long term because having good,
(35:11):
reliable relationships,
work appropriate relationships actually leads to ease comfort,
creativity,
you know,
high engagement,
so on and so forth.
Yeah.
And longevity and Mary,
I often will bring with me a hammer and a nail and screw and a screwdriver and,
(35:33):
and talk about,
you know,
if my job is to nail boards together as an analogy,
I can take,
you know,
a hammer and a nail and I can pound that hammer in that nail.
And that's like the short term thing.
It requires a lot of force.
I gotta be really on target.
And if I miss even a little bit,
my nails gonna get bent or my fingers are gonna get bruised.
(35:57):
But that's how a lot of us do things with we hammer away.
And that's that I keep,
uh I keep telling them what to do when they're not doing it.
And,
and it's like it's that hammer,
but the screw and the screwdriver,
there's a little bit of force.
You got to get it to start,
but it's rotational,
it's rotational.
And so,
and that's the IKEDA piece is rotational and that's the spiral piece that I use.
(36:21):
It's rotational.
And so it's easier to drive and you get a better,
more stable long term result because there's more connection in that.
And I think that's an analogy.
A lot of people can understand and it's the same is true in the terms of the way we interact,
whether it's a person,
an event or some even a thing.
(36:43):
So,
you know,
we can have a struggle with our car.
You know,
that's right.
As I say,
a bowl in a china shop,
right?
Yeah,
that is that it made me think about what it means to be in conversation.
And conversation is a dialogue.
The distinction between talking at a person is if they are an object or a brick wall versus what happens when you have the dialectic and the dialectic is,
(37:10):
is a back and forth.
It's not,
it is very spirally,
right?
As we flow together,
the end product is not yours or mine,
it's ours and whoever,
whoever is in the conversation because it grows and it becomes organic and it flows and this is what we want,
especially at work.
We want the benefit of everybody's experience background,
(37:34):
their strength to make whatever it is that we're working on better and Mary in your work and restoration.
Do you find very many generational differences in the way people handle conflict at work?
Most people that I talked to today,
one of the things I want to talk about is generational issues.
And,
(37:54):
well,
I,
I do see that and I recognize that I think it's more a surface problem and um but it has to be addressed,
but it's really about how do we communicate with people?
It's,
it's almost,
I think it's,
um it's in a way artificially drummed up in our culture for culture wars.
(38:17):
But I mean,
there is something to it but it's,
I mean,
that's more surface underneath it just really basic human dynamics.
I,
I agree with you.
I was just kind of curious as to your experience because people do want to hang on to that.
And I saw a presentation a few years ago where the fellow,
um he showed,
he showed like covers to magazines about those young people.
(38:41):
And it was funny because they were all 50 years old and it was the same,
that it was the same issues and it was just the fact that,
you know,
it's just a matter of experience and,
and I don't find,
I don't find the,
the um generalizations around generations to be true in terms of communication either.
So,
yeah.
(39:01):
Yeah,
I think it's,
it's a gateway in for any way that people want to start addressing healthy work cultures.
I'll take anything and then we can look at it and what it really needs to happen is we need to have,
you know,
what are our employee centric values?
How are we going to treat one another?
How are we going to communicate instead of my way is the best way,
no matter where you are on the generation,
(39:22):
we are together.
So that means we need to have conversation,
we need to have a plan that works for us at this time.
We need to be resilient,
so on and so forth.
So,
it's like in a way it's an entry to go ahead and,
and talk about how we can have a better work together.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah,
(39:42):
I was on your website and I started to watch your video about,
um,
talking about conflict like water.
Oh,
yeah.
Did you tell us about that?
I'm glad you asked me that,
you know,
Mary,
as you know,
our work is hard to put return on investment and while I know that the work that you and I do saves lives,
(40:04):
it,
it can save billions millions,
it can prevent a company from going under.
I mean,
and it can also make people just happier.
But I was just thinking a few years ago about how do you,
how do you relate conflict to something else that's tangible?
And I thought it's like water and,
and just for,
(40:25):
for our listeners here,
you know,
in my work,
of course,
with the martial arts,
it's that flowing,
it's that flow that we want to get to.
And actually that's the,
that's a symbol that we use in Aikido is a wave.
And also,
you know,
water flowing down a stream.
It's,
it's,
that's conflict that the water is,
(40:45):
is moving into the rocks and the earth and it's free flowing and it creates this beauty and it creates so.
But what happens in,
in our lives is we take water and we contain it.
And I use the analogy and I'm,
I'm not gonna be able to give you all the numbers off the top of my head.
But in the analogy,
I start off with a distant drip that we hear and I don't know if you've ever experienced that.
(41:10):
I know I have where you hear a drip but it's distant and it's not constant,
you know,
it's there.
And that is something that I think a lot of managers and leaders,
directors need to be really aware of those little drips that are not,
not constant like the boss I talked about earlier,
(41:31):
you know,
I,
it wasn't a real drip.
I actually said to him,
I'm having difficulty here now in his life.
It might have seemed like a drip but he didn't address it.
So what ended up happening got really big.
So,
but those are drips in the wall are those things we have gut feelings about.
It's when we have an employee that doesn't,
um,
(41:51):
that,
that might say something,
but we don't take it as serious as they mean.
And I think that happens a lot because people don't want to be disruptive,
they don't want conflict,
but they can say something and we really,
as leaders need to really hear that.
So that's the,
that's the distant drip and,
but then there's also the drip,
that's right in front of us and that's that thing that keeps going on.
(42:14):
It's that sarcasm.
It's the micro management,
it's whatever that is that drips,
drips,
drips,
drips drips.
And then all of a sudden that drip,
you know,
that really disengages people.
You know,
for example,
again,
it gets back to my,
my work situation where I put up with that.
I put up with that.
I put up with that and then all of a sudden I couldn't do it anymore.
(42:36):
The studies show that people hugely disengage when they have those little petty conflicts all day long.
And a lot of times people don't even know that's happening.
We accept people's behavior even if it's dysfunctional as part of who they are.
And it's interesting where we can get in again and ask questions,
(42:58):
get clar clarified on our intent and that will really help dissipate those things,
but that's not what typically happens.
And I think in that video,
I show a picture of a chandelier falling out of the wall actually with that,
with that,
with that constant dripping.
And then of course,
we have puddles and when you look at how much time managers,
(43:19):
the typical manager spends 25 to 40% of their time dealing with workplace conflict,
that's a lot of time.
And even if you just take their salary,
it's a lot of money.
And if you take all the other places where it sucks energy out of what you're there to do,
the cost on that are huge.
And then of course,
(43:40):
you know,
then of course we can burst pipes and stuff like that,
that,
that cost our reputation.
You know,
it's litigation,
it's,
it's all that stuff.
So,
thinking about how do we let water flow more easily?
How do we let conflict flow more in our lives where we're addressing it in a healthy way,
(44:02):
a natural way?
And I,
and that's what I call conflict mastery is,
which is,
you recognize that you gotta have conflict,
you know,
you gotta have people speaking up,
you gotta have those differences in order to really create and flourish and,
and when we don't know how to deal with those things effectively as you know,
(44:22):
it does.
Um I was talking with some entrepreneurial companies and one of the things I've noticed is so often when small companies come together,
it attracts the people,
oftentimes they're either really different or alike,
you know,
like somebody that's really a people,
person will attract someone that's a real detailed person and they come together out of their differences because they need each other.
(44:45):
But then as time goes on those differences,
drive them crazy.
And I've had,
I've had conversations,
I've seen companies dissolve over those issues because they didn't really have the skills to be able to deal,
deal with that.
And I always say when you're a growing company,
take the time to learn those skills.
(45:07):
And what I often call is a credo,
which is what's our agreement in terms of questions,
we ask each other how we're going to work together.
And that's part of the transformational work I do with,
with teams that are really having trouble is what are,
you know,
what,
what's your credo?
What it is important to you and how are you going to check in with that so often,
(45:29):
you know,
again,
things just start growing and mushrooming and,
and then,
you know,
it gets out of control.
I,
and I often say culture is kind of like honeysuckle.
Now you're in Tennessee,
I'm in Indiana,
but my parents live in Georgia,
you know,
in Georgia,
they have Katsu that just grows over everything here.
(45:50):
We have honeysuckle,
but both of those items to me,
uh,
woods is kind of like a healthy team.
But then you have Honeysuckle or Katsu that comes in and that's the strongest personality and that's what takes over unless you get your shares out and you really define what that culture is going to be.
(46:10):
But I use that analogy a lot.
It's like if you just leave it up to what is,
you will get a lot of,
you won't,
you won't be happy long run,
you'll lose people.
Absolutely.
You know,
we're going to have strong personalities and we're going to have all different kinds of people at work and so prepare for it because work is for everybody.
(46:32):
So it's also for the strong personality.
They deserve to have a healthy work environment.
And also for the person who is maybe more timid or introverted or however you want to talk about them,
the healthy work environment is for everyone.
And so you're absolutely right.
If you leave it to chance,
you ought not be surprised when,
when the,
when,
(46:52):
when the people that you,
that you are,
are important to leave or you're not meeting your goals or it's,
you know,
people have those blues about going into work and you're spending all of this unnecessary time on conflict that if it was addressed at the very beginning,
when you hear the distant drip,
if we attune ourselves to having conversations,
(47:14):
this is not about,
you know,
policing everybody or sometimes people think it's getting into the petty it isn't,
but it is asking people to and it empowering people if you feel like something is wrong early,
often swiftly,
justly,
let's get to it.
Let's have that discussion.
And as you said,
(47:36):
I really think that so much of the dysfunction in a work environment that is what other people call petty,
but it is not petty to me.
And if you write somebody else off,
you're writing off them and what's important to them.
And if you spent a little bit of time up front,
dealing with it and talking about it and making a plan,
(47:56):
it doesn't mean everybody gets their way.
But we find out what is the need underlying need and that is the humanizing effect of a good leader,
empowering people to solve their own issues,
empowering,
listening.
And when you set those conditions,
it's amazing how you have set your,
(48:16):
the individuals in the organization up for success.
Oh,
absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's,
it's,
it's really exciting and it's,
it doesn't do service to let those things go by and abs,
you know,
we're,
we're,
you know,
we're speaking to the choir here.
That's what I find too is,
(48:37):
is,
um,
when I work with a team that's having a lot of difficulty and we really start,
you know,
having some real conversations and real definition of what it is that they want to create as a team.
And that,
and,
and that's as the,
the culture team part.
Sometimes people opt out,
you know,
and it's funny because I always tell leaders,
(48:58):
you know,
you may have somebody leave because if you're gonna have a culture that's gonna communicate and be respectful of each other.
Not everybody wants that.
And,
and if somebody chooses to leave,
that's a good thing.
That's a good thing.
And,
and,
yeah,
I've seen that happen many times because they no longer have their freewheeling way of controlling everything and,
(49:24):
and so that does happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I,
I absolutely agree.
You know,
I think there's a place for everybody and,
but we get to decide what this place is like and what we value and what the workplace standards,
civility standards are and what we will and won't tolerate.
Yeah.
And we see that a lot with the highest performer.
(49:46):
Uh what kind of behavior are you going to tolerate to the staff or how,
you know,
how are you going to,
what do you really value as an organization and,
and who do you value?
Right.
And I tell you,
I've done a lot of work in hospitals and,
and it's interesting because there's always a saying he's a great doctor but,
(50:07):
or she's a great nurse.
But,
and sometimes those people,
you know,
they do get away with a lot of things because they,
they're seen as irreplaceable.
But the,
the price that is paid for that kind of behavior is,
is huge.
It's huge.
It's always short term,
short sighted.
(50:28):
When you give people quote unquote a pass,
it is to the detriment and the morale of everyone else around.
And,
uh,
I think we have,
I do believe we have a moral obligation to treat everyone well and that's everyone and their mental health,
their physical space,
all of these things matter and we ought to pay attention to.
(50:52):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
People are,
I just really,
I love people and I love to see people be able to contribute at their,
at their best and,
and it's,
you know,
Mary,
we,
we do great work.
I mean,
it's exciting to see the transformation that can happen.
Um,
and then one of the reasons I've always had people say you should go work with kids or you should do that.
(51:15):
And it's like,
you know,
I go in the workplaces for a reason which is a lot of people in workplaces don't get the opportunity for the education.
And I feel like you can touch more people that may not ever be touched anywhere else when you,
when you work in,
when you go into workplaces.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I absolutely agree.
(51:35):
So,
Karen,
you mentioned you have something coming up.
Yeah.
Well,
you know,
a couple things I do master classes that are free that,
you know,
I add in video and we're all audio here and a lot of the iike a piece.
It's like you almost got to see it to really grasp it.
And so I do master classes that if you go to Karen's Master class.com,
(51:55):
you can find out when the next one is and sign up.
And then the other thing is,
is I also,
um I'm in process and I may not be done by the time this is published,
but uh go to my website which again is Karen valencic.com or Spiral impact.com.
And I will,
I am launching an online learning and that will be different belt levels.
(52:19):
There'll be a level where you can just participate in this video content that I've created that really takes you through the Spiral Impact process and then there'll be a blue belt,
which is where you will have specific things that you need to apply this to and turn it in and it's still all virtual and then the,
(52:40):
the purple belt goes on to in person training.
So,
because I think that's really an important part.
And then black belt,
I am looking to certify people in my content and that is going to be done on an individual basis,
but that's my intent.
So it is so exciting.
What a wonderful resource.
Yeah.
(53:00):
Yeah,
it is.
It's,
it's,
it's been a long time in the works.
So,
yeah,
it's been a long time.
You know,
if I think about your younger self who didn't know,
you know,
about maybe coaching opportunities when you were having the problem as a young engineer and if this was available to you,
you know,
and I,
I think that,
(53:20):
you know,
getting the word out,
it is the case that people are more aware of coaching and,
but I still think it's sort of tangential that,
that I don't think the everyday person thinks it's for them that this kind of training or this kind of development is accessible or available to them.
And there are so many wonderful resources like the one that you just mentioned that you've been working on books and I encourage everyone who's listening to,
(53:48):
think about how you can learn and grow and develop in these areas.
Maria,
I don't know if you've experienced this,
but I experienced that with people think they have conflict.
They think they've done something wrong.
And years ago I did for a medical device company here in town,
(54:08):
I did quarterly trainings.
And at that time I called it using conflict creatively and people would come feeling like they were being punished,
but they would be leave.
They would be delighted.
And I told the people that were putting this together.
I said,
I maybe we need to call this something else and they said,
oh no,
we need to have a conflict course.
(54:30):
But it was funny because I always had that resistance that I had to deal with when people came in.
And then a lot of times people will introduce me and say,
Karen,
um is this expert in conflict.
And people say,
well,
I don't have any conflict and it's like,
well,
if you don't have conflict,
you're probably not,
you know,
you're probably not really living.
And I think conflict again,
it's,
(54:50):
it's inevitable,
it's natural and it makes us grow.
So,
and it doesn't have to be with another person.
It can be inside ourselves.
That's right.
I mean,
how do we have the Grand Canyon of that water and,
and,
and the babbling brook and,
and all of the beauty that,
that water presents and how life giving it is a conflict is.
(55:11):
If we allow it,
it can be very life giving,
it can be very conflict can be very beneficial,
managed,
conflict helps everyone.
And this is how we grow and develop it's when we don't manage it.
As you said,
we try to contain it but it won't be contained.
Right.
We want to suppress it and magical thinking but it's coming out and then it's harder to,
(55:35):
not impossible,
but it becomes harder to deescalated because we're now compounding the issues.
And so the conflict isn't,
the problem being caught in conflict is normal.
It's just a part of the human condition.
It's what are we going to do with it?
Right.
Right.
And it all starts with ourselves.
(55:57):
Yeah,
there's a saying in Aikido Yatsu,
which is self development.
You know,
we have to,
we have to start with ourselves.
And you know,
my work,
we have a lot,
I do a lot of work around censuring and becoming present.
It's a lot of fun.
It's,
it's a lot of fun to develop.
And I actually feel like when you can master conflict,
(56:19):
that's a pathway to freedom.
It's a pathway to freedom because now when you have that skill,
it serves you everywhere.
Not a person that can really deflate your balloon because you understand what you need to do with that.
And I don't mean to say life is a better roses.
I think you're so right though,
the more that I do it and put into practice what I,
(56:42):
what I teach others,
the more courage and confidence I have and the more courage you have,
the more courage you get that,
that virtuous cycle.
And the same thing with confidence.
And I,
and I would,
you know,
tell your listeners,
I think the reason we,
we said earlier,
I think the reason so many people avoid conflict is they don't know what,
they don't know what to do with it.
(57:03):
And I think that Mary,
you and I can provide people with those tools.
It's not about you.
It's not about confrontation.
If you think it's got to be confrontation,
you,
you're,
you're not thinking right because I don't,
I don't like confronting people and you know,
and I don't,
and it's,
I don't think it's so effective.
Ask them questions,
(57:24):
get curious,
get clear on intent.
Those things are what dissipate the resistance so that then you can actually have a real conversation.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Karen,
what do you think about the future of work?
What do you think needs to happen so that all people are not only treated with dignity and respect but encouraged to thrive and flourish?
(57:47):
Well,
I think that gets back to leadership and I,
I find that um I think what I find is that there are people,
there aren't,
let me start that over.
I think all people want to do the right thing and do good work.
And I think it's up to our leadership to provide that space and that culture and we can give people at every level in the organization,
(58:16):
the tools that we're talking about Mary.
But if we don't have the support of leadership.
It doesn't matter because they are the ones that really call the shots and,
and it's,
and I think it's so,
I think it's a leadership and culture challenge and I think if your culture is strong enough,
the new leaders come in and they carry that forward if they have that intent.
(58:40):
So I think it gets to be around shifting how we do it.
And if everybody knew how much easier it is to bring out positive engagement rather than trying to micromanage and,
and call all the shots.
It's really,
to me it's all about developing people to really come forth with their best.
(59:01):
You know,
I find it's fascinating to,
rather than telling somebody,
I need this to say,
hey,
what I'd like to accomplish is this thing that's,
that's a little bit further out.
How do you see us doing that?
How do you see us doing that?
So now I'm,
I'm engaging their brain and I find that they will come up with all kinds of ideas that I will never think about.
(59:24):
And for me,
that's about innovation.
So I think if companies want to stay ahead of the curve in innovation and being able to attract the best employees,
you've really got to learn how to engage with people.
And,
and that's what I call conflict,
mastery.
It's not um creating necessarily conflict,
but it's,
(59:45):
it's becoming aware of.
We need to have that connection where we can create momentum and movement and,
and creating that awareness.
So that's,
you know,
it's about one on one relationships,
really.
It's about fostering those.
Karen,
thank you so much for your time.
It's just been so wonderful chatting with you and the hour has just flown by.
(01:00:07):
It's nice to meet you,
Mary.
I let's stay connected.
Absolutely,
Karen.
Thank you so much for being on conflict,
man.
It's an absolute pleasure to talk with you.
I'm excited for your online content to come out.
It sounds really interesting and helpful for those of us who want to learn more about how to deal with conflict in a way that is fruitful. Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(01:00:35):
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at three P Conflict restoration.com.
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at work tips to ensure failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do at work and starts a conversation about what to do instead,
our music is courtesy of dove pilot.
(01:00:55):
And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time.
Take care.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it.
I do wraps now.
Get a sound side uptight.
Jack.
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
(00:24):
I'm your host Merry Brown. Today on Conflict Managed we welcome Karen Valencic.
Karen is not just a speaker and business leader.
She's a transformative force in the world of conflict.
Mastery and leadership.
Can you imagine a business environment or a world in which people despite conflict get their work done with ease and grace.
Bringing this to reality is Karen's mission with over three decades of experience.
(00:46):
Karen has honed her craft,
blending her expertise in science,
martial arts and communication to create the groundbreaking Spiral Impact method.
As the president of Spiral Impact,
Karen brings a unique perspective to performance improvement for leaders and teams.
Her method.
Spiral Impact offers a simple yet profound way to master conflict,
(01:07):
foster collaboration and solve problems with grace.
Through her books,
including the best selling Black belt edition of Spiral Impact.
Karen provides tangible tools and insights to empower individuals and teams to navigate challenging situations with ease.
Karen's journey from corporate engineer to performance improvement.
Expert is as inspiring as it is unconventional with a background in mechanical engineering and a career at Delco Remy,
(01:33):
a division of General Motors Karin was one of the first female engineers in her field,
drawing inspiration from her experiences in engineering and her dedication to Akito,
the Japanese art of reconciliation.
Karen developed viral impact to help individuals and organizations thrive in the face of conflict and change.
Karen is also a distinguished speaker.
(01:53):
Karen speaks nationally at all types of conferences and is known for her entertaining audience involving presentations which are full of actionable insights that individuals and teams can put straight to use.
Good morning,
Karen and welcome to conflict managed.
Oh,
I'm,
I'm thrilled to be here,
Mary.
Thanks for inviting me.
Absolutely.
It's,
it's nice that the weather is starting to change and um it's sunny here in Tennessee and how about where you are?
(02:19):
I am in Indianapolis and I have to say today it's kind of rainy,
but the last two days have been in the seventies and sunny.
So it's been fantastic.
I always forget how much the sun means to me and most of us when it's not around.
Yes,
I,
I get it.
I get it and I have to say that I just came back from Central America and it was sunny every day there last Saturday it was like really dreary and gray.
(02:47):
So the sun makes a huge difference.
Yeah,
it's your desk.
Well,
I'm so excited to talk with you today and I'm interested in your spiral method and what you're up to.
But let's start with just you.
Can you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
The first job as a young person,
not like professional,
but as a job job.
Yes.
(03:08):
Well,
I baby sat,
um,
was probably my first job but in terms of actually an actual employer,
I worked at a fish and chips place,
you know,
it was called H salt Fish and Chips.
I don't think they're around anymore.
But,
yeah,
I sold fried fish and chips and that was a job.
I,
I enjoyed,
although every time I went home from that work I had to really take a shower.
(03:32):
I smelled so bad.
So,
what was that like?
Um,
your first sort of,
you know,
paid employment beyond babysitting or what was the work environment like?
You know,
I really had fun there.
I,
it was a fun work environment.
We,
you know,
we serve customers,
we cooked fish,
we kind of all did everything and it was actually,
(03:52):
it was a very fun environment.
So I,
I enjoyed it.
Of course,
I didn't enjoy smelling like fish and I,
I certainly wanted to make more money than I was making there.
So,
yeah.
Do you remember,
what do you remember about the management?
Yeah,
I remember always feeling supported and valued by the management there.
That was not a high conflict place.
Um,
(04:13):
it was,
uh,
it was,
and actually I remember I rode my bike there to work.
So um it was,
it was a good positive first experience in my work.
Now,
after that,
when I was still in high school,
I went on to work at a department store that I found to be a different experience.
And that while I,
(04:35):
I um I like my colleagues dealing with customers in that environment was a little bit more,
there was a little bit more conflict involved in that.
And honestly,
I gosh,
I haven't thought about this for years.
I ended up being let go from that job.
Um And I really felt like it was because my supervisor was hitting on me and I did not,
(04:58):
you know,
I did not go out with him and I ended up,
he just took me off the calendar and without a word.
And so that was not very pleasant experience.
So,
wow,
what,
what two different experiences,
you know,
when you talk about the first one,
anytime you work with food and you're working with customers and sometimes you've got these lines and it can be very high pressure and yet it really,
(05:20):
it doesn't have to be,
in other words,
you can have high pressure but still be a good work environment being run smoothly.
Collegial.
Right.
Well,
and I think in that food environment too,
I,
you know,
it was a fast food restaurant.
So,
and I think the environment I was in was just a really fun,
fun environment,
you know,
in high school too I had a job at a drugstore.
(05:42):
I guess I have more.
I haven't thought about these early jobs,
Mary for a long time.
But I also worked in a drugstore,
which was maybe one of my favorite jobs as a young person,
um,
in high school.
And it,
we,
again,
we had a,
a huge camaraderie with the people that I worked with and the people that would come through were always very friendly.
(06:03):
And it,
it was a,
it was a very good,
positive work environment and it makes all the difference.
And I think people that come through that line really feel it.
And,
you know,
I noticed that with places I shop today and I tend to go more towards places where the environment is really great.
Trader Joe's is a great example of that.
(06:25):
I always feel uplifted when I go there.
And that's not true with every grocery store I go to and,
and,
and that's all culture.
It's all culture.
It is so true.
Sometimes we say to ourselves it's the job.
It's because I'm doing this kind of job that it's going to be dreary or difficult or not collegial.
(06:47):
And that's just not true at all.
It's not the work.
It's,
it's the people,
it's the people and it's also I think what we bring to it because I think I,
I think I could probably do anything and be happy in it because I,
that's just kind of how I'm wired.
Um Unless it's incredibly stressful,
I can't say I would,
I love babysitting.
(07:08):
I was not,
that was,
to me was really difficult work.
So,
yeah,
so,
um but,
you know,
from there I went on,
you know,
I went to school and I studied engineering and I,
that was um and,
and I love that and I was really grateful to have the opportunity to co op my way through school.
(07:33):
So I,
I worked for a division of General Motors and General Motors was very um advanced in terms of work,
study cooper of type programs.
Um Way before I think a lot of other places were.
And I had,
you know,
I had such a mix of experience in that and when I was a student,
it was fantastic.
Um I found that 98% of the people I worked with were all about helping me grow as an engineer.
(08:01):
And it,
it was a,
a such a fantastic,
fantastic opportunity.
And then I,
I went on to experience um some other difficulties in that work.
And I should say,
you know,
I was one of the,
I was one of the very first and I was the first in my department which was product design and development,
(08:21):
women engineers where I worked.
So I was uh a little bit of an anomaly which,
which didn't seem odd to me because I grew up with brothers and of course,
I was in school with mostly men.
So that was not an unusual experience for me.
But I,
but I did find my first really frustrating conflict in that work and I'd love to share it if you did because,
(08:48):
you know,
I,
I know we,
a lot of us in this field of conflict.
Um we talk about toxic work environments and there are really toxic work environments,
but there are some work environments that really don't go to the toxic level,
but also really don't bring out the best in people.
And so the my first experience with really difficult conflict in that role,
(09:12):
I had what we call back then,
a straw boss who was a person that was,
you know,
some people might call a supervisor.
He did not do my annual review.
He wasn't my boss boss.
He sat between me and my regular boss and he was a very smart guy.
He was very detailed and he was very controlling.
(09:33):
And I found in that work that I was,
I was micromanaged and I felt a lot of his,
the way he communicated really kind of made me diminished how I felt about myself.
And I,
you know,
I've struggled with that and I really didn't know what to do about it.
And um and then I did talk to my regular boss about it in my annual and I told him I said,
(09:59):
you know,
I,
I,
I'm enjoying the work,
but I'm really having difficulty working with,
with Larry,
I'll call him Larry.
Um,
but,
um,
but he,
he was very concerned about that and he said,
well,
I'll see what I can do and I,
but he didn't have any advice for me.
And I really,
at that point in the work world,
(10:20):
there weren't coaches,
there weren't anything like that.
And so I was somehow hoping that he would help me in some way,
but nothing ever transpired there.
And then one day we were all sitting and we were kind of in a work space with,
I don't know,
probably 68 people in a space.
And Larry was sitting there with ac couple of customers and all of a sudden he went,
(10:40):
Karen,
you didn't do what I told you to do and,
you know,
it was some kind of minor thing around,
how about going to do something.
But what at that moment,
at that moment was a turning point for me and I stood up and I said,
you know,
we don't have,
I said,
you know,
we don't have to keep working together.
(11:02):
I know this isn't working out for you and it's really not working out for me.
And I said,
we don't have to continue this.
And I left and I,
I felt just really at peace with that.
But then when I came back in the,
in the room,
um,
he caught me and he said,
we need to go talk to our boss.
And so we went into my boss's office and Larry said,
(11:23):
you know,
we had an incident out there and you need to know about it.
And,
and he looked at me,
he says,
Karen,
tell him what happened.
And I said to my boss,
I said,
you know,
you and I have already discussed the difficulties I've been having working with Larry and I said,
I really don't have anything else to say.
And so it was,
it was um um and you know,
(11:43):
and honestly,
what I said,
based upon,
you know,
I was in my twenties back then and based upon my experience now,
what I said to him wasn't awful.
I was stating a fact is this isn't working very well.
And so,
but what's interesting,
what happened there,
Mary is I got called down to the chief engineer's office in the corner office and I got told I would have a black mark on my record if I didn't turn myself around in the next six months.
(12:12):
And it was interesting because I got no advice,
no support,
nothing.
It was just like you need to figure this out.
And,
you know,
and I was a study person and I always was a high performer and it was really confusing to me.
But long story short,
I ended up transferring to a different department down the hall and it was a totally different culture.
(12:33):
It was totally different culture,
the man I worked for and I'll say his name,
his name is Robert Johnson.
He,
he was a known as kind of a tough person,
but he was fantastic to work for.
And all the engineers in that office,
we were all very collaborative,
we talked things we created,
it was such a great environment.
(12:54):
And so I look at those two environments and it really informs a lot of what I do today,
which is,
you know,
how do you,
how do you really bring out the best in people?
And I,
one of the engineers I worked with in particular events,
he was such,
he's just modeled what I teach now and I didn't know what it was back then,
but he really modeled it.
(13:15):
And,
and so I have those experiences to go forth to know what's possible in the work I do today.
So,
yeah,
I love several of the things that you mentioned,
one is that it's like we know what good is.
When we see it,
we may not have the words,
but we see when people are excellent leaders and when people are doing the sorts of things that help us grow and flourish.
(13:40):
And as you said,
collaborate and making that kind of environment.
And even if we can't use sort of academic speak or to,
to,
to be able to think about it in that way,
we know it and we respond.
And another thing that you mentioned is that,
you know,
here you are um an educated,
smart woman in this field and you are,
(14:02):
you're doing your work and yet it's confusing that what's going on the dynamics.
Like why is this happening?
I think that's also something that we know,
we know when something is wrong and most of the time it catches us off guard because we're doing our work,
we know that this shouldn't be happening and you even said something and there's no help or resources and we're supposed to figure it out,
(14:27):
but figure out what it is very confusing and then time consuming to try to figure out and navigate the people issues.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And,
and I,
you know,
and I was felt grateful,
you know,
I got a big bonus,
the six months to the day that that whole thing happened.
So I,
(14:47):
whatever I was doing worked.
But I don't know that it was because of me,
I think it was because of the people I was working with.
So,
so anyway,
there,
there we go.
But,
but,
um,
yeah,
so my life changed when I actually was introduced to the martial art aikido,
which really teaches me and informs me in terms of how,
(15:10):
how do I interact to get the best result for not just myself but for the other person involved and,
and that looking at where we get into resistance and how do we move with that so that we can,
we can learn the most we can,
we can create momentum and movement with that.
And that to me is where the magic happens in relationships and on teams.
(15:33):
So how did you find Akito?
How did that come into your life?
You know,
I had read it,
I had read a story in a book many,
many,
many years ago and it was by a man named Terry Dobson and it was called a kind word Turn of the Way Wrath.
And it's been,
it's a story that's been um reprinted many times.
But it was really about a guy that was in Japan.
(15:55):
Aikido is a Japanese martial art based upon position,
not force and as a really radically different martial art than anything else that's out there.
And I read this story and it was really this story about him riding a bus when this big drunk guy got on and started swinging things around and just kind of cut to the chase in the story.
(16:17):
Um The,
the fellow Terry Dobson was studying Aikido and he recognized that we,
you know,
his teacher told him that,
you know,
don't start a fight,
you know,
you don't want to go out looking for fights.
But yet he saw this situation where somebody was really in danger and there were,
there was a young couple with a baby and an older couple there and this guy was just thrashing around and he was drunk and he,
(16:41):
he felt called to action because this was really wrong and he needed to make it right.
And so he stood up and,
and kind of challenged the guy and then right at that moment where he might have moved,
there's all of a sudden this voice that comes out of nowhere and it says,
(17:01):
hey,
and it was just one of those things that interrupted the whole energy of the thing.
And it was a little Japanese man and the guy says,
hey,
again,
and both of them just turned and looked down at this guy who's just sitting there immaculate in his kimono.
And then he says to the drunk,
(17:22):
he says,
hey,
what?
You've been drinking and you know,
just in this really easy vernacular and ended up having a conversation with the drunk and it totally dispelled the entire communication that entire conflict and it was through kind words and questions.
(17:43):
And so the,
the fellow that wrote the story said that,
you know,
then he came to his train stop and what he realized what he thought needed combat was really resolved with kind words.
And that for me had such a huge impression.
Of course,
when I first read that story,
there was no Aikido here and I was always intrigued by it.
(18:05):
But several years later,
I end up going to a dental conference and a man whom you may know about his name is Tom Crum was presenting his work that he called the magic of conflict.
And Tom was an Iquitos.
And that was that moment that I um it really,
my life transformed and I decided to leave my engineering work behind and start this consulting business where I would teach people these concepts.
(18:33):
And of course,
I had a lot to learn because I,
I hadn't integrated with the material yet,
but I came back here and there was a Keto and I,
I've been practicing for 33 years now and it really helps inform the work I do with conflict and that's where that spiral impact comes from.
So,
um,
yeah,
and I studied with Tom for several years and then I've evolved,
(18:56):
he's retired now and I've evolved the work into something that's,
that's different than what he did.
But,
but the same,
at the same time,
so I've,
I've made it my own work and I've added different components to it than,
than what he was teaching way back then.
But,
um but it boils down to Mary,
the difference between force and power.
(19:16):
That's,
that's what it all boils down to and,
and it's really about self development as they were so strong because many times when we were caught in a conflict,
we,
you know,
we,
we are at this heightened state and we are offended in some way and we need to defend ourselves just as the story said,
right?
(19:37):
We need to defend ourselves and our sense of justice,
putting things right in the world and how do I do that by standing my ground?
Right.
In this confrontational,
you can't say that to me.
These are my boundaries,
these are my rights,
rights based language and you're offering it a different path.
(20:00):
Right.
Right.
Right.
And it's interesting,
um because I,
I really love teaching,
I mean,
I do a lot of virtual things,
but when you can demonstrate the simple,
the simplicity of what happens with Aikido and actually,
Mary,
we can demonstrate that right here if you take both of your fists and push them together and you know,
(20:24):
you feel this resistance and as I teach,
which may be different than others is this is conflict,
conflict by definition is to strike together.
And that's what we have here and this is force against force and this,
the strongest person will win this if you go at it this way and it could be physical strength,
(20:47):
psychological strength or professional strength,
it doesn't matter.
But spiral and what I learned in Aikido is you just open one of those,
you open those hands and you just move with it.
And so that's a little difficult when you're solo.
But,
but you get that feeling of letting that resistance melt away.
(21:08):
And so in practicality,
what I do in Aikido is I move in and with so that I end up next to the person and it dissipates all the resistance and you know,
to have conflict,
you have to have something to push against and sometimes that's ourselves.
But all,
a lot of times when we,
what we're talking about is another person and that is where the resistance come comes in.
(21:35):
And when you can study that and recognize when am I pushing,
um,
then you can say,
ok,
let me pause here and do something different,
do something different because the pushing is not gonna get me where I want.
Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely.
You know,
when we are caught in these conflicts and we think,
ok,
you know,
(21:55):
this is what's happening and you are wrong and you need to change and you,
you know,
you're being unprofessional or whatever it is.
I think a lot of what we are pushing against is our own narrative and our own view of the world and whether or not the facts are on our side,
what usually helps is to,
to get out of that,
that push and pull that,
(22:16):
that win,
lose proposition instead of thinking about what is it that I want and what am I going to do?
And so then you're not,
you're not pushing against that other person to change or to move,
it's,
you're moving yourself.
And so then that changes the relationship that you're having with the other,
what you're expecting of the other and what you're expecting of yourself.
(22:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And,
you know,
I often will say to people that will say I'm not going to even bother talking to that person because they will never change.
And you know,
how many times do you hear that a lot in the culture today?
And my question always back is so listen to yourself and are you willing to change?
(23:05):
Because if we go in with the intention of changing the other person's mind,
we will never do it right.
It's that,
you know,
getting into a debate around facts never works because it just creates more resistance.
And if we go in,
if we go into it and,
and I do this,
I mean,
I have had some amazing conversations and transformations for both myself and other people having conversations about some of the really difficult subjects of today that,
(23:36):
you know,
of course,
I don't do that in work environments,
but in terms of,
of having a conversation where you can really open people's eyes up and my own eyes to see things a little differently and,
and understand where,
where we're coming from.
And oftentimes there is not a right or wrong,
there's somewhere in the middle that,
(23:58):
that we really is where the truth rela where the relative truth lives,
I would say so.
Yeah,
there's certainly an art to having a robust set of beliefs that guide us that we really believe to be true and allowing other people to not see what we see.
Yeah.
(24:19):
Right.
Right.
And the more we scream it,
you know,
I worked with a coach a long time ago or I was considering working with a coach a long time ago.
And he told me,
he said,
wouldn't you,
if you had a cure for cancer,
wouldn't you want to get on the rooftops and scream it?
And I said no,
I wouldn't because if I did that,
(24:40):
nobody would believe it,
they wouldn't hear me.
I know that much is if you've got,
you've got that thing and you're so convinced everyone needs it.
Nobody will listen to you.
That's right.
I mean,
communication is more relationship than the words that somebody says.
Right.
How do you make somebody feel?
How does somebody feel around you?
How do you feel around somebody else?
(25:00):
And so we know it's the same words said by different people.
It just strikes us as can be polar opposites,
given the nature of their relationship and the care that's either present or not present.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's a,
it's,
it's a beautiful,
you know,
getting to someone's essence and really,
(25:22):
I,
you know,
I talk a lot about intention in my work and,
and one of those intentions is to have a really deep personal intent and mine is to honor myself and others all at all times.
I mean,
my,
that's my intent and when I come from that intent,
um,
(25:42):
it's,
it's really makes,
it makes people really interesting and makes me very curious and I,
and I love that about people to really be able to connect and really understand somebody and know that we all come,
we all come informed through our background and,
and that's where we come from.
(26:03):
And I think it's fascinating.
We can be fascinated rather than outraged.
That's what we put ourselves in a position of power.
Yes,
I love that.
You know,
curiosity cures so much.
And so would you speak a little bit to this,
to the idea of kindness?
(26:23):
People talk about toxic positivity and they are on the lookout for people policing other people's tone as a way to silence dissent.
I think kindness is always appropriate.
I think holding people accountable for their actions is kind.
So how do you,
do you run into anybody accusing you of wanting to shellack the world and oh,
(26:45):
let's just,
you know,
put a smile on when I know that's not what you're talking about.
But how would you talk about that?
You know,
that's such a great question,
Mary.
I,
I always go back to the thing and actually it's in my book that if the goal is not to be nice,
but it's to be sincere.
And to me sometimes and,
(27:06):
and I'm not using the word kind,
but I could maybe kind is kind to me is more around sincerity than nice.
Nice to seems to be couched in some,
some lies or untruths in some ways.
But kind to me is always,
it's always great to be kind and I think it's always great to be sincere around who you are and,
(27:28):
you know,
I don't get a lot of shellacking around.
I don't get accused of shellacking things in positivity a lot.
And I think part of that is I'm also willing to ask deep questions around things and I am always willing to shift things to see where the opportunity is as well and what the learning is and,
(27:53):
and,
but I don't,
I don't get,
I don't get called on that a lot,
but I think it comes more from really wanting to honor that person with questions and Acknowledgments rather than just saying,
oh,
she's just wonderful.
You know,
it's all,
it's all good,
it's all good.
I had a old colleague of mine that always said it's all good and actually the fact is,
(28:17):
is,
it's not all good,
right?
He demonstrated that to me in a really graphic way once and I was like,
I thought everything was good.
No,
that's right.
Yeah,
that,
that is certainly a hand waving,
you know,
a way of talking about,
you know,
in a way I don't want to talk about it.
I just,
everything is fine,
everything is fine.
You know,
I live in the south and,
(28:38):
you know,
in this country there are different regional differences and,
you know,
this,
this idea of being nice.
I like the distinction of nice and kind and sincere.
And I talked to so many people and I'm sure you do too.
That self described as being conflict diverse and they don't want to deal with conflict,
they're afraid of conflict and a lot of people at least talk to me in the South about they want to be nice.
(29:04):
And there's this,
there's this societal expectation,
especially for women to,
to be nice.
And what I want to help people understand is that to be nice or to be kind is to say the truth,
nobody's going to read your mind and nobody's coming to save you.
You have to take ownership and responsibility for the work situation that you want,
(29:29):
the culture that you want.
And if it's not happening,
what are you going to do about it?
And that means that person who is doing something that you deem to be inappropriate,
it's not nice or kind to sit and take it right?
That,
that shuts down actual authentic relationships.
Mary,
what I find with people is they get caught in not knowing what to say and so they do,
(29:55):
they do,
they kind of go back to just being nice and because they don't,
they don't know what to say.
And I'd say most people don't like to be confrontational and,
and I don't teach confrontation as a way because I do find confrontation does create more resistance.
But I find what I do with people is,
(30:18):
is coaching them again to enter and,
and spiral.
And so,
and what does that look like?
And that looks like,
you know,
I want to see that the world from that person's standpoint.
So it's gonna involve,
it's gonna involve asking questions of myself and of the other person to find out what's really going on.
Because I find sometimes we can react to something and we're reacting out of our own history rather than what really is current and present with what's happening.
(30:47):
So I always encourage people to become,
you know,
again,
it gets back to that curiosity.
Do you really know what that person meant?
Where,
what's behind their response?
And,
you know,
I think there's a lot of people that couch that their,
their world in humor that makes it really hard to come back to and,
(31:09):
but there's always that opportunity to come back and say so what,
what did you actually mean by that?
You know,
tell me more about what,
how you see the situation and,
and so we become again instead of going in and saying,
I don't like what you said about that.
Um That,
that is a different thing whereas I might not like what they said about it.
(31:32):
But if I say,
tell me more about what you're thinking now,
we become in a conversation rather than,
um I'm being defensive over what you said because I find when you can and,
and I don't want to say it's calling somebody out,
but it's really kind of moving in and really learning more about where that person's coming.
(31:53):
Um And so I find that that is that is one thing that people don't know what to do is,
and oftentimes,
um an open in a question is such a great way.
Of course,
as you know,
Mary,
why is a bad question?
Why are you saying that?
But you know,
how did you come to that or what's your experience with this or tell me more about that?
(32:14):
Those are such important questions that can diffuse those things and address a conflict without being confrontational.
I also think that,
uh you know,
one of the things I think that is most missed in conflict is intention and most people aren't thinking about what intention is around when they communicate.
(32:39):
And as I said earlier,
you know,
my intention is to honor myself and others.
And so earlier in my life,
I didn't think about honoring myself.
I only thought about honoring others,
which is that being nice kind of thing,
right?
So I think it's important to really be clear on what your intention in this relationship.
It's like when we talked earlier about how often people will say I'm not gonna,
(33:01):
I'm not gonna even bother because they will never change,
thinking back on what is your intention to change them or to learn about what,
how they see the world,
uh how to make this product better,
how to improve our workflow.
If you can really think what the intention is,
(33:22):
that's,
that's not necessarily specific about the other person.
It really moves you forward.
So did I answer your question?
I,
now I'm thinking,
what was the question?
You?
No,
no,
it's wonderful because as you're talking,
you know what I think I do restoration work.
Right.
So,
of course I do conflict management,
but I'm interested in restoration because we're talking about relationships.
(33:45):
It's not just this one off issue.
We've got this relationship as colleagues because,
you know,
I do workplace conflict resolution and as we think about what is somebody else's intention,
but that self reflective piece,
what is my intention?
It helps us not to focus on this one issue.
(34:05):
As if the issue is the problem,
there's a breakdown in the relationship,
whether it's a communication,
whether it's maybe I'm villainizing the other person for whatever reason.
And so curiosity always helps us to humanize the other,
curiosity about ourselves,
helps us to see what part we're playing in this breakdown.
(34:26):
And I think curiosity and intention helps us to think,
play the long game,
right?
When we think about managing the specific issue is the short is short term as if we get done with whatever this conflict is.
And when we're done with conflict and we have winners and losers.
But when we look at needs and we look to see how can everybody win because we're all still together,
(34:50):
right?
We're still working towards and we need to be able to have a working relationship.
And so it is easier to make somebody a cardboard cut out.
It's easier to say this is who you are in the short term.
It is not easier in the long term because having good,
(35:11):
reliable relationships,
work appropriate relationships actually leads to ease comfort,
creativity,
you know,
high engagement,
so on and so forth.
Yeah.
And longevity and Mary,
I often will bring with me a hammer and a nail and screw and a screwdriver and,
(35:33):
and talk about,
you know,
if my job is to nail boards together as an analogy,
I can take,
you know,
a hammer and a nail and I can pound that hammer in that nail.
And that's like the short term thing.
It requires a lot of force.
I gotta be really on target.
And if I miss even a little bit,
my nails gonna get bent or my fingers are gonna get bruised.
(35:57):
But that's how a lot of us do things with we hammer away.
And that's that I keep,
uh I keep telling them what to do when they're not doing it.
And,
and it's like it's that hammer,
but the screw and the screwdriver,
there's a little bit of force.
You got to get it to start,
but it's rotational,
it's rotational.
And so,
and that's the IKEDA piece is rotational and that's the spiral piece that I use.
(36:21):
It's rotational.
And so it's easier to drive and you get a better,
more stable long term result because there's more connection in that.
And I think that's an analogy.
A lot of people can understand and it's the same is true in the terms of the way we interact,
whether it's a person,
an event or some even a thing.
(36:43):
So,
you know,
we can have a struggle with our car.
You know,
that's right.
As I say,
a bowl in a china shop,
right?
Yeah,
that is that it made me think about what it means to be in conversation.
And conversation is a dialogue.
The distinction between talking at a person is if they are an object or a brick wall versus what happens when you have the dialectic and the dialectic is,
(37:10):
is a back and forth.
It's not,
it is very spirally,
right?
As we flow together,
the end product is not yours or mine,
it's ours and whoever,
whoever is in the conversation because it grows and it becomes organic and it flows and this is what we want,
especially at work.
We want the benefit of everybody's experience background,
(37:34):
their strength to make whatever it is that we're working on better and Mary in your work and restoration.
Do you find very many generational differences in the way people handle conflict at work?
Most people that I talked to today,
one of the things I want to talk about is generational issues.
And,
(37:54):
well,
I,
I do see that and I recognize that I think it's more a surface problem and um but it has to be addressed,
but it's really about how do we communicate with people?
It's,
it's almost,
I think it's,
um it's in a way artificially drummed up in our culture for culture wars.
(38:17):
But I mean,
there is something to it but it's,
I mean,
that's more surface underneath it just really basic human dynamics.
I,
I agree with you.
I was just kind of curious as to your experience because people do want to hang on to that.
And I saw a presentation a few years ago where the fellow,
um he showed,
he showed like covers to magazines about those young people.
(38:41):
And it was funny because they were all 50 years old and it was the same,
that it was the same issues and it was just the fact that,
you know,
it's just a matter of experience and,
and I don't find,
I don't find the,
the um generalizations around generations to be true in terms of communication either.
So,
yeah.
(39:01):
Yeah,
I think it's,
it's a gateway in for any way that people want to start addressing healthy work cultures.
I'll take anything and then we can look at it and what it really needs to happen is we need to have,
you know,
what are our employee centric values?
How are we going to treat one another?
How are we going to communicate instead of my way is the best way,
no matter where you are on the generation,
(39:22):
we are together.
So that means we need to have conversation,
we need to have a plan that works for us at this time.
We need to be resilient,
so on and so forth.
So,
it's like in a way it's an entry to go ahead and,
and talk about how we can have a better work together.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah,
(39:42):
I was on your website and I started to watch your video about,
um,
talking about conflict like water.
Oh,
yeah.
Did you tell us about that?
I'm glad you asked me that,
you know,
Mary,
as you know,
our work is hard to put return on investment and while I know that the work that you and I do saves lives,
(40:04):
it,
it can save billions millions,
it can prevent a company from going under.
I mean,
and it can also make people just happier.
But I was just thinking a few years ago about how do you,
how do you relate conflict to something else that's tangible?
And I thought it's like water and,
and just for,
(40:25):
for our listeners here,
you know,
in my work,
of course,
with the martial arts,
it's that flowing,
it's that flow that we want to get to.
And actually that's the,
that's a symbol that we use in Aikido is a wave.
And also,
you know,
water flowing down a stream.
It's,
it's,
that's conflict that the water is,
(40:45):
is moving into the rocks and the earth and it's free flowing and it creates this beauty and it creates so.
But what happens in,
in our lives is we take water and we contain it.
And I use the analogy and I'm,
I'm not gonna be able to give you all the numbers off the top of my head.
But in the analogy,
I start off with a distant drip that we hear and I don't know if you've ever experienced that.
(41:10):
I know I have where you hear a drip but it's distant and it's not constant,
you know,
it's there.
And that is something that I think a lot of managers and leaders,
directors need to be really aware of those little drips that are not,
not constant like the boss I talked about earlier,
(41:31):
you know,
I,
it wasn't a real drip.
I actually said to him,
I'm having difficulty here now in his life.
It might have seemed like a drip but he didn't address it.
So what ended up happening got really big.
So,
but those are drips in the wall are those things we have gut feelings about.
It's when we have an employee that doesn't,
um,
(41:51):
that,
that might say something,
but we don't take it as serious as they mean.
And I think that happens a lot because people don't want to be disruptive,
they don't want conflict,
but they can say something and we really,
as leaders need to really hear that.
So that's the,
that's the distant drip and,
but then there's also the drip,
that's right in front of us and that's that thing that keeps going on.
(42:14):
It's that sarcasm.
It's the micro management,
it's whatever that is that drips,
drips,
drips,
drips drips.
And then all of a sudden that drip,
you know,
that really disengages people.
You know,
for example,
again,
it gets back to my,
my work situation where I put up with that.
I put up with that.
I put up with that and then all of a sudden I couldn't do it anymore.
(42:36):
The studies show that people hugely disengage when they have those little petty conflicts all day long.
And a lot of times people don't even know that's happening.
We accept people's behavior even if it's dysfunctional as part of who they are.
And it's interesting where we can get in again and ask questions,
(42:58):
get clar clarified on our intent and that will really help dissipate those things,
but that's not what typically happens.
And I think in that video,
I show a picture of a chandelier falling out of the wall actually with that,
with that,
with that constant dripping.
And then of course,
we have puddles and when you look at how much time managers,
(43:19):
the typical manager spends 25 to 40% of their time dealing with workplace conflict,
that's a lot of time.
And even if you just take their salary,
it's a lot of money.
And if you take all the other places where it sucks energy out of what you're there to do,
the cost on that are huge.
And then of course,
(43:40):
you know,
then of course we can burst pipes and stuff like that,
that,
that cost our reputation.
You know,
it's litigation,
it's,
it's all that stuff.
So,
thinking about how do we let water flow more easily?
How do we let conflict flow more in our lives where we're addressing it in a healthy way,
(44:02):
a natural way?
And I,
and that's what I call conflict mastery is,
which is,
you recognize that you gotta have conflict,
you know,
you gotta have people speaking up,
you gotta have those differences in order to really create and flourish and,
and when we don't know how to deal with those things effectively as you know,
(44:22):
it does.
Um I was talking with some entrepreneurial companies and one of the things I've noticed is so often when small companies come together,
it attracts the people,
oftentimes they're either really different or alike,
you know,
like somebody that's really a people,
person will attract someone that's a real detailed person and they come together out of their differences because they need each other.
(44:45):
But then as time goes on those differences,
drive them crazy.
And I've had,
I've had conversations,
I've seen companies dissolve over those issues because they didn't really have the skills to be able to deal,
deal with that.
And I always say when you're a growing company,
take the time to learn those skills.
(45:07):
And what I often call is a credo,
which is what's our agreement in terms of questions,
we ask each other how we're going to work together.
And that's part of the transformational work I do with,
with teams that are really having trouble is what are,
you know,
what,
what's your credo?
What it is important to you and how are you going to check in with that so often,
(45:29):
you know,
again,
things just start growing and mushrooming and,
and then,
you know,
it gets out of control.
I,
and I often say culture is kind of like honeysuckle.
Now you're in Tennessee,
I'm in Indiana,
but my parents live in Georgia,
you know,
in Georgia,
they have Katsu that just grows over everything here.
(45:50):
We have honeysuckle,
but both of those items to me,
uh,
woods is kind of like a healthy team.
But then you have Honeysuckle or Katsu that comes in and that's the strongest personality and that's what takes over unless you get your shares out and you really define what that culture is going to be.
(46:10):
But I use that analogy a lot.
It's like if you just leave it up to what is,
you will get a lot of,
you won't,
you won't be happy long run,
you'll lose people.
Absolutely.
You know,
we're going to have strong personalities and we're going to have all different kinds of people at work and so prepare for it because work is for everybody.
(46:32):
So it's also for the strong personality.
They deserve to have a healthy work environment.
And also for the person who is maybe more timid or introverted or however you want to talk about them,
the healthy work environment is for everyone.
And so you're absolutely right.
If you leave it to chance,
you ought not be surprised when,
when the,
when,
(46:52):
when the people that you,
that you are,
are important to leave or you're not meeting your goals or it's,
you know,
people have those blues about going into work and you're spending all of this unnecessary time on conflict that if it was addressed at the very beginning,
when you hear the distant drip,
if we attune ourselves to having conversations,
(47:14):
this is not about,
you know,
policing everybody or sometimes people think it's getting into the petty it isn't,
but it is asking people to and it empowering people if you feel like something is wrong early,
often swiftly,
justly,
let's get to it.
Let's have that discussion.
And as you said,
(47:36):
I really think that so much of the dysfunction in a work environment that is what other people call petty,
but it is not petty to me.
And if you write somebody else off,
you're writing off them and what's important to them.
And if you spent a little bit of time up front,
dealing with it and talking about it and making a plan,
(47:56):
it doesn't mean everybody gets their way.
But we find out what is the need underlying need and that is the humanizing effect of a good leader,
empowering people to solve their own issues,
empowering,
listening.
And when you set those conditions,
it's amazing how you have set your,
(48:16):
the individuals in the organization up for success.
Oh,
absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's,
it's,
it's really exciting and it's,
it doesn't do service to let those things go by and abs,
you know,
we're,
we're,
you know,
we're speaking to the choir here.
That's what I find too is,
(48:37):
is,
um,
when I work with a team that's having a lot of difficulty and we really start,
you know,
having some real conversations and real definition of what it is that they want to create as a team.
And that,
and,
and that's as the,
the culture team part.
Sometimes people opt out,
you know,
and it's funny because I always tell leaders,
(48:58):
you know,
you may have somebody leave because if you're gonna have a culture that's gonna communicate and be respectful of each other.
Not everybody wants that.
And,
and if somebody chooses to leave,
that's a good thing.
That's a good thing.
And,
and,
yeah,
I've seen that happen many times because they no longer have their freewheeling way of controlling everything and,
(49:24):
and so that does happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I,
I absolutely agree.
You know,
I think there's a place for everybody and,
but we get to decide what this place is like and what we value and what the workplace standards,
civility standards are and what we will and won't tolerate.
Yeah.
And we see that a lot with the highest performer.
(49:46):
Uh what kind of behavior are you going to tolerate to the staff or how,
you know,
how are you going to,
what do you really value as an organization and,
and who do you value?
Right.
And I tell you,
I've done a lot of work in hospitals and,
and it's interesting because there's always a saying he's a great doctor but,
(50:07):
or she's a great nurse.
But,
and sometimes those people,
you know,
they do get away with a lot of things because they,
they're seen as irreplaceable.
But the,
the price that is paid for that kind of behavior is,
is huge.
It's huge.
It's always short term,
short sighted.
(50:28):
When you give people quote unquote a pass,
it is to the detriment and the morale of everyone else around.
And,
uh,
I think we have,
I do believe we have a moral obligation to treat everyone well and that's everyone and their mental health,
their physical space,
all of these things matter and we ought to pay attention to.
(50:52):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
People are,
I just really,
I love people and I love to see people be able to contribute at their,
at their best and,
and it's,
you know,
Mary,
we,
we do great work.
I mean,
it's exciting to see the transformation that can happen.
Um,
and then one of the reasons I've always had people say you should go work with kids or you should do that.
(51:15):
And it's like,
you know,
I go in the workplaces for a reason which is a lot of people in workplaces don't get the opportunity for the education.
And I feel like you can touch more people that may not ever be touched anywhere else when you,
when you work in,
when you go into workplaces.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I absolutely agree.
(51:35):
So,
Karen,
you mentioned you have something coming up.
Yeah.
Well,
you know,
a couple things I do master classes that are free that,
you know,
I add in video and we're all audio here and a lot of the iike a piece.
It's like you almost got to see it to really grasp it.
And so I do master classes that if you go to Karen's Master class.com,
(51:55):
you can find out when the next one is and sign up.
And then the other thing is,
is I also,
um I'm in process and I may not be done by the time this is published,
but uh go to my website which again is Karen valencic.com or Spiral impact.com.
And I will,
I am launching an online learning and that will be different belt levels.
(52:19):
There'll be a level where you can just participate in this video content that I've created that really takes you through the Spiral Impact process and then there'll be a blue belt,
which is where you will have specific things that you need to apply this to and turn it in and it's still all virtual and then the,
(52:40):
the purple belt goes on to in person training.
So,
because I think that's really an important part.
And then black belt,
I am looking to certify people in my content and that is going to be done on an individual basis,
but that's my intent.
So it is so exciting.
What a wonderful resource.
Yeah.
(53:00):
Yeah,
it is.
It's,
it's,
it's been a long time in the works.
So,
yeah,
it's been a long time.
You know,
if I think about your younger self who didn't know,
you know,
about maybe coaching opportunities when you were having the problem as a young engineer and if this was available to you,
you know,
and I,
I think that,
(53:20):
you know,
getting the word out,
it is the case that people are more aware of coaching and,
but I still think it's sort of tangential that,
that I don't think the everyday person thinks it's for them that this kind of training or this kind of development is accessible or available to them.
And there are so many wonderful resources like the one that you just mentioned that you've been working on books and I encourage everyone who's listening to,
(53:48):
think about how you can learn and grow and develop in these areas.
Maria,
I don't know if you've experienced this,
but I experienced that with people think they have conflict.
They think they've done something wrong.
And years ago I did for a medical device company here in town,
(54:08):
I did quarterly trainings.
And at that time I called it using conflict creatively and people would come feeling like they were being punished,
but they would be leave.
They would be delighted.
And I told the people that were putting this together.
I said,
I maybe we need to call this something else and they said,
oh no,
we need to have a conflict course.
(54:30):
But it was funny because I always had that resistance that I had to deal with when people came in.
And then a lot of times people will introduce me and say,
Karen,
um is this expert in conflict.
And people say,
well,
I don't have any conflict and it's like,
well,
if you don't have conflict,
you're probably not,
you know,
you're probably not really living.
And I think conflict again,
it's,
(54:50):
it's inevitable,
it's natural and it makes us grow.
So,
and it doesn't have to be with another person.
It can be inside ourselves.
That's right.
I mean,
how do we have the Grand Canyon of that water and,
and,
and the babbling brook and,
and all of the beauty that,
that water presents and how life giving it is a conflict is.
(55:11):
If we allow it,
it can be very life giving,
it can be very conflict can be very beneficial,
managed,
conflict helps everyone.
And this is how we grow and develop it's when we don't manage it.
As you said,
we try to contain it but it won't be contained.
Right.
We want to suppress it and magical thinking but it's coming out and then it's harder to,
(55:35):
not impossible,
but it becomes harder to deescalated because we're now compounding the issues.
And so the conflict isn't,
the problem being caught in conflict is normal.
It's just a part of the human condition.
It's what are we going to do with it?
Right.
Right.
And it all starts with ourselves.
(55:57):
Yeah,
there's a saying in Aikido Yatsu,
which is self development.
You know,
we have to,
we have to start with ourselves.
And you know,
my work,
we have a lot,
I do a lot of work around censuring and becoming present.
It's a lot of fun.
It's,
it's a lot of fun to develop.
And I actually feel like when you can master conflict,
(56:19):
that's a pathway to freedom.
It's a pathway to freedom because now when you have that skill,
it serves you everywhere.
Not a person that can really deflate your balloon because you understand what you need to do with that.
And I don't mean to say life is a better roses.
I think you're so right though,
the more that I do it and put into practice what I,
(56:42):
what I teach others,
the more courage and confidence I have and the more courage you have,
the more courage you get that,
that virtuous cycle.
And the same thing with confidence.
And I,
and I would,
you know,
tell your listeners,
I think the reason we,
we said earlier,
I think the reason so many people avoid conflict is they don't know what,
they don't know what to do with it.
(57:03):
And I think that Mary,
you and I can provide people with those tools.
It's not about you.
It's not about confrontation.
If you think it's got to be confrontation,
you,
you're,
you're not thinking right because I don't,
I don't like confronting people and you know,
and I don't,
and it's,
I don't think it's so effective.
Ask them questions,
(57:24):
get curious,
get clear on intent.
Those things are what dissipate the resistance so that then you can actually have a real conversation.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Karen,
what do you think about the future of work?
What do you think needs to happen so that all people are not only treated with dignity and respect but encouraged to thrive and flourish?
(57:47):
Well,
I think that gets back to leadership and I,
I find that um I think what I find is that there are people,
there aren't,
let me start that over.
I think all people want to do the right thing and do good work.
And I think it's up to our leadership to provide that space and that culture and we can give people at every level in the organization,
(58:16):
the tools that we're talking about Mary.
But if we don't have the support of leadership.
It doesn't matter because they are the ones that really call the shots and,
and it's,
and I think it's so,
I think it's a leadership and culture challenge and I think if your culture is strong enough,
the new leaders come in and they carry that forward if they have that intent.
(58:40):
So I think it gets to be around shifting how we do it.
And if everybody knew how much easier it is to bring out positive engagement rather than trying to micromanage and,
and call all the shots.
It's really,
to me it's all about developing people to really come forth with their best.
(59:01):
You know,
I find it's fascinating to,
rather than telling somebody,
I need this to say,
hey,
what I'd like to accomplish is this thing that's,
that's a little bit further out.
How do you see us doing that?
How do you see us doing that?
So now I'm,
I'm engaging their brain and I find that they will come up with all kinds of ideas that I will never think about.
(59:24):
And for me,
that's about innovation.
So I think if companies want to stay ahead of the curve in innovation and being able to attract the best employees,
you've really got to learn how to engage with people.
And,
and that's what I call conflict,
mastery.
It's not um creating necessarily conflict,
but it's,
(59:45):
it's becoming aware of.
We need to have that connection where we can create momentum and movement and,
and creating that awareness.
So that's,
you know,
it's about one on one relationships,
really.
It's about fostering those.
Karen,
thank you so much for your time.
It's just been so wonderful chatting with you and the hour has just flown by.
(01:00:07):
It's nice to meet you,
Mary.
I let's stay connected.
Absolutely,
Karen.
Thank you so much for being on conflict,
man.
It's an absolute pleasure to talk with you.
I'm excited for your online content to come out.
It sounds really interesting and helpful for those of us who want to learn more about how to deal with conflict in a way that is fruitful. Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(01:00:35):
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at three P Conflict restoration.com.
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at work tips to ensure failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do at work and starts a conversation about what to do instead,
our music is courtesy of dove pilot.
(01:00:55):
And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time.
Take care.
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