He Quit Music to Cook Crickets? Joseph Yoon on Edible Bugs and the Future of Food

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I'm Chef Joseph Yun, Edible insect Ambassador at Brooklyn
Bugs, and we work to raise awareness and appreciation for
edible insects. But I started as an adult as a
small business entrepreneur working in artist management for
musicians. And about a dozen years after I

(00:21):
started feeling a little burnt out, I was like, OK, I'm just
going to start hosting some pop ups.
It's not fear factor, dare you to eat this insect, but rather
how can we address food security, sustainability,
workforce activations, environmentalism.

(00:42):
So providing the the informationand also the educational
component so that we can have children exposed to insects as
food, not as a pest, something disgusting or something that is
not food. And I love to encourage that
every single person has the power to be a change maker.

(01:05):
So hello and welcome everybody to another episode of Fugitive
Chef's podcast. This week we have Chef Joseph
Yoon. Chef Yoon's story is going to be
something I think in the past we've never had somebody from
this angle of of food business in general, the whole food
system. And for me, this episode is
super exciting because I think we're going to see a side of
what chefs can contribute to thefood system or questions like,

(01:28):
what do we where do we find the source of food and the, and the
continuously depleting resources?
And I think today Chef Joseph isgoing to help us look at some of
these answers. Yeah.
Without further ado, I would like Chef Joseph to to introduce
himself. What what do you do, Joseph?
What, where do you come from? What is Brooklyn Bugs?
Reading, Thank you so much for calling.

(01:48):
Very nice to be on your podcast.And I'm Chef Joseph Yun, Edible
Insect Ambassador at Brooklyn Bugs, and we work to raise
awareness and appreciation for edible insects, sharing in its
delicious potential, but also exploring the innovations of
insect agriculture and its impact on global food systems

(02:12):
and the UN Sustainable Development Goals.
We've been incredibly fortunate to have traveled over 500 days
since our founding in 2017, primarily funded by
universities. And it's been just incredible to
be at this juncture, to be sharing both as a chef, as an

(02:33):
advocate, as you know, a insatiably curious person to
continue learning and share whatI learned.
And I'm so thankful to be here. Thank you.
Welcome insect, insect agriculture you and there's so
many terms so many terms that I think normally like when I speak

(02:54):
to speak to chefs who still still are in restaurants at the
core of what once when somebody says, oh, I'm a chef, you
actually in your head already make an image, OK, that's that's
somebody who works in restaurants and somebody who
serves food. So the food service industry.
So I think the people hearing this are not expecting this,
this kind of vocabulary. So before getting into what you

(03:14):
do currently, which we've got a little glimpse on, which is
great to to to catch up on this attention of people listening to
this. How did you get into this?
What is your first contact with food?
Why? Why food industry?
What like what carriers did you consider or was it your first
choice to get into food industry?
I feel incredibly fortunate thatfood has been an incredibly

(03:37):
important part of my life because of my family.
And I feel fortunate because noteveryone has that relationship.
And a mom and a grandmother and aunt who put so much care not
just in the food that they prepared, but in how they share

(03:57):
their food and in the service tothe community and church for
them and for me to be a witness and just see their great joy.
That for our family dinners and celebrations, everyone would sit
down and we would all start eating the delicious food.

(04:18):
And they would still be in the kitchen preparing the food hot,
making it crispy, laughing, eating while standing up so
everyone else can enjoy the food.
And to be exposed to that sort of care and sharing and love and
joy of service, I think left a really big imprint in my life.

(04:41):
And so I always had a very closeconnection to food.
But I started my as an adult as a small business entrepreneur
working in artist management formusicians.
And I loved cooking during that time.
And I would throw these big parties at my house, but it was

(05:04):
not my profession. And about a dozen years after
running my artist management company, I started feeling a
little burnt out and a little tired.
And I just wanted to do something that I loved.
And when I thought about that, Iwas like, OK, I'm just going to

(05:24):
start hosting some pop ups. And this was back in 2011 when
nobody knew what a pop up reallywas.
So I was explaining to some of the bars that I was going to,
hey, I would love to come bring all the food and heat it up and
serve food for the night. And we'll be gone.

(05:44):
Like we were never even here tomorrow except for the maybe
the beautiful lingering aromas of our food the next morning.
And so that change did not push me to quit music industry and go
into food until I put in my time.

(06:06):
I hosted more and more pop ups as really a passion project is
something that I just need to find this joy.
And, and as I continue to do that, I began winning over a lot
of different, a lot of differentclients.
And as that happened, I began transitioning from working in

(06:29):
artist management into the food and hospitality.
I started working with other chefs.
I started getting invited to different sort of food festivals
to share my food. And I slowly began transitioning
from music to food. And because I had a really good
business acumen from working in artist management and being a

(06:52):
small business owner, I was ableto very successfully contact and
negotiate my fees and explain tothe one percenters and
celebrities that were reaching out to me to cook for them in
New York City why it cost what it cost it to hire me to come do

(07:14):
their private events. And so in really short time, I
just recognized the need to start a business.
And so, you know, I, I think that it was a very natural
evolution taking the skill sets that I learned as a business
owner, my love of cooking and really being able to translate

(07:35):
that and make that my, my full focus and committing all my time
and energy to, to food and hospitality shortly after.
But that's super interesting because normally the usual type
of guests we have on this podcast are people who are chefs
and they leave the industry. So that's the first job they do
being being chefs and then they transition to something else.

(07:56):
Whereas in your case, you started with something
completely different. Somebody would think that's not
even relatable with the food industry and nothing of that
would be applicable, you know, into this into the next step of
in your career. But it's super interesting how
the things you learnt and also the, I think I would say your
business aspect of things of like knowing where to compromise

(08:17):
and knowing where not to compromise, knowing what you're
worth. I think that's one skill also,
like many chefs, I feel lack because you get into industry
which is very intense and then you get used to also, it's an
industry which comes through a lot of people being there in
your roles before you. So if they've accepted or if
they've done it, you better do it as well.

(08:37):
You know, I had a difficult and you should have it tough as
well. So I think with somebody from
the outside, I would say stepping into it, I think most
contribution to in any industry I think is made by
multidisciplinary minds. And I think that's that's where
you come in because you came in with a mindset where you do not
for you, there's no baseline. So you said the baseline where

(08:57):
you wanted to be. So I think that's yeah, that's
super interesting on. I mean, you're mentioning some
of these lessons, but I can onlyimagine of how many things you
would have come up to do just because that's the way you think
makes the most sense for you andnot just because that's how it's
been, you know, so super interesting.
I would like to also ask you if while being so close with
restaurants, you know, approaching restaurants, asking

(09:18):
them to let you do a pop up, didit never occur to you that, you
know what, what if I just, yeah,join a restaurant on a, on a if
that's my full time job of beinginside a kitchen?
Like what held you back? Or was it an idea which didn't
work out? What's behind there?
Yeah. So I think that every chef, no
matter what role you have as a chef, in catering, as a private

(09:38):
chef, personal chef, I think there's always a dream of owning
a restaurant one day. If you're a chef and you're
you're really serious about it. I started cooking in my 30s and
so I thought maybe I should go to culinary school.
Maybe I should try staging and learning more.

(10:03):
And what I realized is because of my work conscientiousness and
because I was willing to learn and work really hard, I started
working for different chefs who I befriended and just sponging
like I will do anything you wantme to chop fun.

(10:25):
Need someone to wash dishes while we're getting ready fun.
You need the, the prep fine. And I just like kept my head
down and did as much learning asI could.
And so I felt like I'm learning a lot while also gaining my
client base. And I found that I've was able

(10:45):
to make a living and also not work the incredibly strenuous
hours required to climb up the chef ladder at a restaurant and
also to suffer really what is really difficult wages that you

(11:08):
have to climb up also at a restaurant.
And what I realized is like, wow, as a as a small business
owner, entrepreneur working as aprivate chef, I was making
significantly more money than people who had cooked 10, maybe
even 15 years in the industry. And so there was obviously

(11:32):
there's going to be pushback from chefs who see that.
And also chefs are like, oh, youdidn't go to school, you didn't
work your way up. I think the really big thing for
me at first, I had a little bit more of an ego.
And so I'd be a little protective and a little bulldog
ish, but because as I entered my40s and I work very hard to

(11:54):
remove that burden, the yoke of the ego and having to prove
myself and that I'm better than you or something.
And it allowed for me to be verycalm and to actually work with
the chefs. And you know, for the chefs that
were like, how do you ask for money?
I have a difficult time asking for like $20 and so you know,

(12:18):
how, how could I better ask for five, $10,000 or this money?
And so I'm happy to be a community builder and
communicate and help other people when I can.
And I think with that spirit, which again, really stems from
my mom and, and the, the, the family that I've been able to
experience, I think that a lot of chefs also seeing my

(12:43):
willingness to do that, were willing to help me along my
journey and how to be a better chef as well.
Wow, that's yeah. Again, another thing that you
said over here is like, yeah, what I take away from the from
what you've said right now is that, yeah, just knowing, just
knowing what you want and defining where you want to get.
And I think, I think that clarity is what I think the
initial, initial hurdles you had, which is, I mean,

(13:06):
completely normal stepping into a business where things are done
the way they're done. People usually go to school or
people, people, I mean, either you go to school or you grow up
the ladder. And for you to go in and demand
that and demand say, you know what I'm putting on the table,
the experience I'm creating overhere is something unique.
You run a restaurant every day. I'm just wanting one day of that
restaurant and making a special experience.
And there are people willing to pay for it.

(13:26):
So you have you have a product market fit, you have an idea
which works. And then still having to, yeah,
you know, prove not to yourself,but to the people around you
that what you're doing actually makes sense is just because, I
mean, every industry needs or every sort of business needs
somebody to to prove otherwise. Like, OK, this is possible that
you can jump in and provide something.

(13:47):
Or like, like what is happening right now, not just in the
States, but all over Europe, every city now you have supper
clubs, you have pop up restaurants, you have dark
kitchens. You have so many concepts coming
in which were all once questioned and then today it's
normal because yeah, somebody said, you know what, I'm going
to try this and fail at it or orprove you wrong.
And I think that's also one clarity a lot of, I think a lot

(14:08):
of chefs miss of just thinking that things don't have to be the
way they are. You can always change them.
I think what I, what I've seen in the past years are like when
I used to work in restaurants and the way I think now, the way
I think used to think before. I feel what also leaves a very
little room is the kind of life a chef usually has because it's
like 16 hours shift, you're sleeping, you're making some any

(14:28):
time for social involvement. You can paying bills answering,
I mean, answering all your emotional needs that you need to
do. And then that leaves way less
room to question. So what's easy is to just, you
know, keep going and keep, keep,keep like keep spinning the the
wheel of the hamster. And that's the easier way.
So I think also what you highlight for those listening

(14:50):
over here who are people maybe who are in the restaurant
industry also need to understandthat just because just the way
we have defined the industry to be, we might be losing on a lot
of talent which doesn't want to sign up to that that system or
doesn't want to sign up to that space scale.
So that's what happened in your case.
In your case, it worked out wellin what you do today is
something very unique. It fills the space in the

(15:10):
industry, which is very important.
And that is a result of you deciding to not having gone to
restaurants. I can only imagine what would
have happened if you, say, spent10 years into restaurants and
maybe still working in that, in that ladder.
So that's. Yeah, that's for me.
For me a key take away. But tell us about your initial
years of those. Those pop up.
Yeah. The meals, the lunches, dinners,

(15:30):
these events you were doing. What kind of food are you
serving there? What are people expecting in an
event like that? Yeah, so the this is like a a
really another life ago almost for me because Brooklyn bugs has
like been like the big thing. And so it's it's almost like a a
beautiful walk down nostalgia for Khan.
Thank you for for asking. And the pop ups required a lot

(15:54):
of grit, a lot of work. And I think that part of that
just willingness to do anything because for these popups, before
popups are really a thing, I would bring a table, I bring an
oven, a convection oven or stovetops.
I would bring all the plating because I would regularly go

(16:15):
into bars where they didn't serve food and we would have to
do all the promotion along with the bar because they want to do
they wanted to do well as well. And so I would often just talk
to the bar and work around special themes and events.
So if it's Valentine's and Valentine's thing, if it's a
Super Bowl, Super Bowl party, wedid that during the elections.

(16:39):
We did like food from all over America and we would do
fundraisers. We would focus on like Korean
food, Southwestern food when we would try to help with a theme.
And it constantly pushed me to learn new foods and practice and
make sure that, you know, it's not just like, oh, let me make

(17:02):
this thing that I my Korean foodthat I know really well or
something. And it, and it was my curiosity
and my desire to learn and continue pushing.
And so we would just very happily work with these
different bars and, and, and then and eventually restaurants.
But it wasn't really until I people started asking me to be

(17:26):
their private chef or to cater events where I was really able
to start looking at making this my full time position.
Because the pop ups, especially in 2011, they were very sparse.
And a lot of times even in trying to tell my friends they'd

(17:48):
be like, what, what's that? What do you mean?
You're going to have a, a serve food at this bar that we hang
out in? Like, what, what is that?
What, what are you doing? And so it required like that
explanation. And I think this is this is a
really big lesson though, and something that I learned in the
music industry, thankfully, is that it is never a good idea to

(18:10):
rely on your friends and put that burden for the success of
your company. And so of course I would love if
my friends would join us and come to the events, but I'm not
going to be angry if they don't come to the event.
And, and I think that was like areally big part as well is that,
you know, I just relied on the hustle, the promotion.

(18:32):
And so it really taught me a lot.
And it's a period of time that I'm really grateful for as well.
No, I think it's still, I mean it's still, I think it's more
common now. I think back when you did, it
wasn't like people would have tobe explained what exactly it is.
But I think today people are still reinventing in that
sector. And I think all the inputs you
share about that part of your even if you say it's a while

(18:55):
ago, I think it's still super relevant because a lot of people
I know who are who are chefs in restaurants are looking at like
get get outs of that that industry or for like for their
own multiple reasons. And I feel a lot of them depend
on this kind of even. I think it's also can be a good
testing ground for if somebody has a restaurant idea, I think
pop ups or like just hosting events or like being private

(19:17):
chef people is a great, yeah, great place to just test the
ideas you think would work because I mean, people in the
end would answer those questionsif it does work or not.
So any advice if you have for people listening this who want
to say get into that sort of a business, what would you say
like key learnings you had from back then?
If you had to start again, what would you do different?
Well, I think that some of the chefs that I met back then that

(19:41):
were trying to do this relied solely on their culinary skills.
But I think that we all recognize in food and
hospitality. The second word of that
hospitality is how are you goingto engage with the clients?
How are you going to make them feel like comfortable, like

(20:04):
you're a reliable business person.
And as much time as I spent in cooking and focusing on my the
gastronomy and and cooking side.I made sure that my business was
buttoned up that I could very comfortably relay to people and
explain the costs very transparently without seeming

(20:28):
like I'm marking it up or something.
And so I think that's that's something that I would really
encourage is like, make sure youremember that hospitality, get
comfortable with how you're explaining the costs and really
be very clear. And that I think was a really
big take away that that I was able to share with a lot of

(20:48):
chefs because they're like, I don't know, like these people
aren't willing to pay what I need to cover my cost and make a
profit. And so I'd be like, well, pitch
me, let me hear you. And they'd be like, so it's
2000. I know it's a lot.
It sounds like a lot, but I'm like, yeah, no, you have to, you

(21:11):
have to learn how to share this with confidence in your ability
and what you're delivering all the time of your learning and
expertise to get to where you are.
It's not just this food on the plate, but everything else.
And so I, I think that's really the big thing is like to learn

(21:31):
the business because I found that I was able to leapfrog over
so many private chefs that were fundamentally technically better
as a chef than I was maybe as a cook.
They were far better, but they didn't have the business.
And so I was able to like win over more clients that way.

(21:55):
And so I think that's something that you have to consider in
starting a business and everything is you have the food,
which is of paramount importanceand food handling and all that
as well. But then also the other side,
which is the business and creating the confidence among
your for your client and really just the storytelling and like
what you can relay in how you'regoing to share your food with

(22:18):
with everyone as well. Well, that's that's that's,
that's a lot of lessons for somebody who wants to start it.
And I think all of them makes sense.
I think the one that stands out for me, of course, yeah, coming
from the industry is, yeah, justbeing confident.
I think that's a big step of chefs just being, yeah, you
know, being straightforward and upfront about this is what it
is. And the way you tell the story

(22:39):
and the way you explain yourselfsets the ground for them.
You know, getting into that sortof a negotiation or not even
having to get into the negotiation because the person
in the front understands that. Why?
What costs? Yeah, You know, I, I think that
going back to like just learningand almost having the DNA of
sharing and service from my mom.And I would see a lot of chefs,

(23:02):
private chefs, and they would just kind of be like, leave me
alone. My servers will serve the food.
I would be like, anyone who wants to come back in the
kitchen is welcome to come because we're in someone's
house, right? It's, it's not like we're in a,
you know, at a restaurant and wehave that separation of the
restaurant. Like we're in someone's house.

(23:23):
And you think about house parties, where do people
congregate? Like 90% of parties?
It's like in the kitchen, there's something, the heart,
the warmth, where the food is coming.
And, and so I really opened it up.
And obviously if it's like really small and we have a lot,
we're where maybe we're plating 10 courses for like 50 people,

(23:45):
maybe then we need a little morecontrol in the kitchen or
something. But you know, for the most part,
we, we kept an open kitchen policy and really just thought
about what's the fun for the clients for them to experience
novelty of a, a private chef in their house.
And they get to like kind of show off to their friends a
little bit, right? Like, Hey, we got a private

(24:06):
chef. And, you know, and so like, I
try to be very mindful of, of all those things and, and really
just, and that's also like kind of like removing part of the ego
of like and really just kind of being with the people and making
the kitchen and the whole experience just seem very
welcoming as well. Wow.
And then so yummy eats, that wasyummy eats.

(24:28):
And from yummy eats to Brooklyn bugs, how does that happen?
Like how does that transition happen?
Was it natural for you? How did you get into the world
of insects? Do you have any memories of the
first insect you tried? Was it something natural,
something just trendy? How do you how did you get
there? Actually, I, I do remember the
first insect that I ever ate and, and it was from, and, and

(24:50):
this is probably sorry, mom, butit was when I was in high
school. And the tequila worm, the
bottle, right? Yeah.
And I don't really count that because that, that was more of
a, a gimmick sort of stick or something.
But I think when people will come back and they'll be like,
hey, I tried these crickets. And so I, I would try that.
And then when I eventually traveled to Mexico, then I ate

(25:13):
more like some of the ants and Eskimole.
And I was always open to new food.
I can't think of a single food that was prepared as food that I
wasn't open and willing to try. And so that that was like the
first, like exposure to insects,but I had never thought about

(25:36):
cooking with them and making that be an evolution of what I
was doing with my work as a, as a private chef.
And then an artist asked if I would cook insects for an art
project for her. And so I said yes, not knowing

(25:57):
really anything about what that meant, but I was like, that
sounds great. I love to work on your art
project. And after saying yes, I go on to
Google and I do some Google searching and I see the FAO, the
the UN Food and Agriculture Organization, they have a

(26:19):
report, Edible insects, future Prospects for Food and Feed
Security that was written, published in 2013.
So I'm starting to look through this, this this scientific
journal essentially. But it reads really for me, it
was a very entertaining read. And it poses the question of how

(26:41):
will we sustainably feed the world's growing population in
2050? And it was by far not suggesting
that this is a silver bullet, that eating insects will be the,
the, the, the, the silver bulletfor this big question.
But it talks about indeed how sustainable edible insects are.

(27:06):
It talks about edible insects for animal feed and now for pet
food. And it talked about providing
livelihoods in micro livestock farming for people around the
world that don't have other job opportunities, particularly
rural women. And so it really addressed these

(27:27):
incredible big pillars that eventually became my guiding
North star and these incredibly inspirational and motivational
pillars for me that didn't existcooking really for a lot of 1
percenters. And so finding this great

(27:48):
purpose of, OK, it's not fear factor, I dare you to eat this
insect, but rather how can we address food security and
sustainability, workforce activations, environmentalism.
And what I found to be really captivating and really so

(28:08):
interesting with this is that itrequires this cerebral sort of
intellectual, psychological quality when you think about how
will we change the perceptions these stigmas that people have
in America around eating insects?

(28:31):
And that question just continuesto really like really spark my
curiosity and so define these multiple layers of the
interdisciplinary nature of thisand that I was able to combine
all the skill sets that I've accumulated as a business owner

(28:54):
at, at at Spectrum Music, my artist management company back
in 2001 as a chef at Yummy Eats,starting in 2011 as a creative,
as an, as an artist that playingmusic my entire life.
And to find all these things culminating for me to be
successful in becoming an edibleinsect ambassador at Brooklyn

(29:18):
Bugs. So that it wasn't just about
cooking insects because we already have your former boss
Renee or Zeppe, who cooked insects at the highest level.
We have Alcatella and we have all these genius chefs that were
doing that. But I think what I found what
was needed is someone who can work towards changing

(29:43):
perceptions and work towards theadvocacy of edible insects as
the main idea. And so instead of having it on
my menu, which I started doing as a private chef, offering
edible insects to some of the some of my clients who are like,
oh, that sounds like a novel, interesting food and it's

(30:05):
related to sustainability. But I soon began realizing, OK,
this requires A wholehearted commitment for me if I'm going
to be successful in my mind. And that's why I when I started
Brooklyn bugs, instead of just calling myself like a, an insect
chef or something of that nature, I decided an edible

(30:27):
insect ambassador, someone who can like work towards advocacy,
someone who can be open to collaboration, share the
knowledge I have, not be secretive like this is my secret
recipe. And really try to build the
community, connect the industry,the academia with the chefs,
with gastronomy and really be a part of building this larger

(30:52):
framework and, and thinking about the solutions and, and the
best way that we can move this, this matrix forward both
globally, while also historically defining insect
agriculture for humanity as well.
It's again, I mean, it's, it's brilliant and genius how you
found again, another niche. Like this is like third time in

(31:13):
your career where you find something which is a niche.
And then again, also, I think your focus on that niche is
super specific. As you said, you could have just
been an insect chef or something, say a more, I
wouldn't say superficial, but something which would have an
impact very economically headed rather than something which is
more for the, for the better, like the bigger, bigger good.

(31:34):
You know, So in that sense, I really love the way you, you
define it the the insect ambassador and as as in this
role right now as Brooklyn bugs,what would you say if somebody
has to understand what are the activities you do on a general
basis? Like what is your, I think it's
tough to say what's your day like?
But what's your week like more or less?
Because I believe there are a lot of different sort of
interactions and how you are kind of representing this new.

(31:57):
I mean, it's actually not new and we'll get there.
How insect eating is nothing new.
It's not a it's not a trend thathas just come up and we've, you
know, come up with, Oh, wow, there is a, an insect eating
trend. But like, what kind of
activities do you do during the week?
I. Love that every day and every
week is actually quite differentand it allows for me to be

(32:18):
nimble and think about the most impactful and engaging way that
I can create these sort of the programming that I'm able to
conduct. And there have been big chapters
of what I did at Brooklyn Bugs. And so the first chapter was

(32:40):
sharing this knowledge and finding who who cares, who wants
to listen, who cares about how Ishare my work with edible
insects. And I was very fortunate that
the the media was very interested and universities were
also very interested. And I think that a big part was

(33:02):
that I also removed myself like again, it's like removing the
ego to being like, hey, look at me, I'm doing this thing, doing
this in a matter of thought leadership and, and the bigger
picture and how we can engage and what problems we're
addressing and how we're suggesting we can solve these

(33:24):
problems. And so that was the route that
we were taking for the first fewyears from 2017 to 2020.
And then COVID the, the, the great equalizer, because no one
was immune from, from COVID. And essentially I got all my

(33:44):
funding removed because I couldn't tour at the colleges
anymore. And I went through a tremendous
period where I was absolutely broke.
I used all my savings and, and Ibecame broke in my in my 40s
during COVID. And at that time I was wondering

(34:06):
whether, OK, do I need to go back to private chefing just to
make money and survive? And so I did get one client
temporarily to at least put somemoney in my pocket.
But then what I realized is, like Joseph, just you know that
what you're doing is of great importance.

(34:26):
And I had conviction and I believed in the purpose.
And So what I did is I just wentto the lab, my kitchen, and just
started cooking non-stop. And what I decided was I, I,
I've been an omnivore my whole life.
During COVID, I decided what if I became an insectivore, A

(34:50):
bugitarian, and I stopped eatingmeat and seafood and ate
vegetarian and insects. That's pretty challenging for
someone who loves eating meat and seafood.
And so that pushed me to learn how to make satiating dishes
that that met my cravings. And that was a tremendous period

(35:15):
of learning for me. And so from that point on,
pretty much I would say 99% of my, my events afterwards, I no
longer serve meat or seafood with my insect food because I
don't want any vegetarians to golike, oh, I, I can't eat that
because it's cricket crusted fried chicken or black ants and

(35:37):
shrimp. It's like, here's everything
vegetarian plus insects. And so that was a really big
evolution in my culinary point of view.
And then when the world slowly started opening up again in 2021
and I got asked to give another lecture, I remember I was like,

(36:01):
I, I was looking through my, my presentation decks and I was
like, I, I just cannot give my old presentation anymore.
We have to acknowledge what the students have experienced.
Like I can't just go up there and be like, hey, we should all
eat insects. Like this is a science.
Why this is a food why I was like, I have to address what

(36:24):
we've all experienced. And if you don't mind, I'd like
to give a little motivational speaking and then follow it up
with, with edible insects. And she's like, wow, we could
really use that chef. And, and so that was a really
big pivot because it came very naturally for me.
And as I continued to tour afterCOVID, a lot of the questions

(36:48):
were like, who the heck are you?Where did you come from?
And so I started incorporating more and more about my personal
story and it really resonated. And so last year I traveled over
150 days, primarily funded by universities the year before,

(37:10):
over 150 days. And it's just been incredible to
find such support and validationfrom leading universities around
the world. I've now shared my work on 6
continents and it's just been really fascinating to, to be
offered, you know, really a significant amount of money

(37:32):
where some colleges that I've worked with now they would offer
me the endowment for the big speaker of the year.
And I remember I the first time I was offered this really large
sum of money to come and speak and cook food, I said, no,
they're like, why? Why not?

(37:52):
And I was like, I can't accept that type of money.
Unless you're willing to consider additional programming,
I cannot come into your school and parachute in, give a
lecture, serve some food, say thank you, I'll see you later.
I want to have way more lectures, master classes, maybe

(38:13):
host a a fundraiser for a non profit in the community that's
food orientated, maybe a food kitchen.
And I think it goes to really the importance and belief in the
work that we're doing. And there were opportunities to
probably monetize my visibility in the media and with various

(38:37):
sort of opportunities to get into CPGS, Consumer Packaged
Goods and where people were willing to consider these
things. But I, I just kind of felt like
I don't want to go travelling around selling a product.
I want to go around talking about great ideas.
And a lot of my time right now is very happily spent reading,

(39:01):
researching, cooking in the kitchen, taking pictures,
following up on emails, thinkingabout big planning and
programming events, thinking about media strategies and.
No, great. I mean, the way the kind of
things you've said, I think I mean looking at the Instagram,
looking at the website, I had some idea of what you could be
doing potentially. I mean, I thought about
education, thinking about like, as you said, contributing

(39:24):
advocacy towards food policy or the global goals of bigger
agencies like F, like Foul and FTAUN and people like that.
But then, yeah, the kind of I think in the position you are
right now after trying what works, what answers what
questions, what kind of market at the first question that you
said, I think for me was super important on who wants to listen

(39:45):
to you, who is really interested?
Because I think unfortunately intoday's society, in the modern
society is taboo. Like many topics which were
normal before and now they have become suddenly not something
natural that comes to mind when you think of food, you know, so
they basically convert the mealworm into some kind of a
flower so that essentially you can, any chef can use that

(40:05):
flower and incorporate that. And also the people consuming
that don't really essentially have in their head that it could
be coming from insect source. So there, there's a lot of
mimicking involved and it's kindof killing the idea that you're
eating insects. So how do you approach that
topic? What do you think is the best
narrative you should one should use?
I think that one of the most important things with this is

(40:26):
actually more philosophical and in showing the kindness, the
respect and also recognizing that each individual is a
beautiful, amazing individual. Meaning there is not one catch

(40:47):
all. There's not like 1 concept or
bug or type of food that will make everyone want to eat it.
Because that's a very common question.
Like chef, what, what insight doyou think will will really be
the one that will make the big adoption or what what's like the
one dish you think that will make everyone want to eat this?
It's like, no, I think first we have to fundamentally start with

(41:10):
a humanity, the human concept and respect that.
This is a very complex calculus to think about. 1:00 There are
billions of people around the world represented in over 80% of
the world's nations that eats insects.

(41:31):
So one, just having that sort ofbasic decency, not to make their
food seem disgusting, right? Because we are unfamiliar with
it. But then too, OK, so we do have
this idea, OK, fine. But maybe that's just for poor
people or underprivileged peopleand removing these tropes and

(41:55):
these negative concepts about how other people are eating and
bring that dignity and respect. And so a great deal of the work
that I try to do in my travels is to meet with indigenous
groups and to meet with various people and amplify their long
time knowledge and not go to theAmazon and go, hey, I'm a New

(42:20):
Yorker, let me give you all the answers.
But rather ask questions and listen, think about what
problems that they're facing andthen be able to share that with
my counterparts and then think about and bring these case
studies to universities. And so one is showing that
humanity and bringing the dignity and respect to the very

(42:44):
food and the concept of food justice, food sovereignty,
showing that kind of respect. And then two, I think this is
more addressing the question that I think you had is how do
we make this food so that we'll actually like be willing to
accept it? And so to address that question,
I think that it's very important.

(43:04):
Whenever I travel, I will arrivemuch earlier and eat the local
food. I'm not going to go and be like,
hey, this is my cricket kimchi, let's eat it first.
I'll go, hey, let me eat your local food.
Let me know what food you guys love to eat.
And then let me think about if they already eat insects, let me

(43:28):
try eating that food. And then let me think about how
I can bugify their classic dishes and take the classic
dishes and think about how to integrate insects to reimagine
it as something recognizable. So I spent three weeks in Quebec

(43:48):
and one of their big dishes, it was for insects that feed the
world Conference back in 2002. And one of their big dishes is
poutine. And so this is like the the
French fries with the gravy and cheese curds.
And so I was like, OK, this is signature Quebec qua food.
What about if we were to make cricket gravy and using a

(44:12):
cricket stalk to make the gravy and then top it off with some
grasshoppers have this like nice, beautiful texture to, to,
to work with the fries and the cheese curds and people, they're
like, Oh my God, you're going tomake, you're going to make
poutine like our food. And so when I go to places,
that's a really big thing is to think about what's a

(44:35):
recognizable dish that people eat?
And how can I integrate insects into that food?
Instead of thinking, here's a skewer full of insects here, try
eating this or, or here's a bowlfull of crickets.
I just try eating a spoon. Just try it.
Just try it like just, you know,but instead, what can we do as
chefs to, to make food that looks recognizable and that will

(45:00):
entice them. It will literally compel them to
try to eat this because it's like, Oh my gosh, that that that
looks like food that I eat. It has insects an I know the the
virtues of the insects and knowing that it can enhance the
flavor profiles. And so depending on who it is

(45:22):
that I'm working with as well, again, showing the respect to
who it is that I'm speaking to. And so if it's food science
students, then I'll talk about the food science.
If it's chefs, I'll talk about flavor profiles, textures and
functionality. If it's environmentalists, I'll
talk more about the environmental impact and the
sustainability of it. If it's a general public, I

(45:44):
think about the best way to likebe a how can I best communicate
these big ideas? And so, you know, this is a
very, I think, long winded answer for the approach, but I
think it requires it because it cannot just be it's sustainable
or it's, it can it, you know, soI try to know who I'm speaking

(46:09):
to so I could best communicate with them.
And so that that's typically been my approach in in how I'm
going to try to introduce peopleto to edible insects.
Yeah, I love the, I mean, the perfect answer, because I think
the what you've said in general is that it has to be adapted to
the person you're talking to. The the kind of people you're
addressing this too are the kindof people you want to get

(46:30):
bugified. I think that's the word you used
to love. I love the term how can you
bugify something? So in this whole journey of
bugifying, bugifying the world, what would you say are the major
challenges? You had to ask that question.
This could be the whole show, but unfortunately we had to try

(46:51):
to, but I'll try my best to indeed.
To summarize, 1 is the acceptability, right?
It's like that big like acceptance and changing
perceptions. And that's really the big focus
that we're working on. 2 is a policy and legislation.
If you're in America, the FDA has all this language about

(47:11):
insects as you could have 100 parts of insect parts in 100
grams of chocolate or whatever. And you know, it's all as a
undesirable, but there's no regulatory framework for insects
as food, right? So we need better policy and
legislation and, and, and to better inform people and build

(47:33):
that confidence. There's more knowledge, there's
a knowledge gap. Is it safe to eat?
How are they farmed? Like all these questions on the
safety and regulations is also abig part.
Then we have the, the availability.
If someone's interested, can they go to their grocery store?
And we need to create the demandand the cart before the horse,

(47:57):
the pricing of these things because is there enough demand
to have it at a really low cost?And then we have the big chef,
the chef question. And a lot of times people think,
oh, so you're a very unique chefcooking with insects.
I'm like, no, there are billionsof people around the world that
eat insects. And of those billions of people
eating them, someone's got to becooking them.

(48:19):
So I know there must be millionsof chefs around the world that
are cooking with insects, maybe just not with as big a mouth as
I have so and so it's the acceptability gaining chefs to
to build the confidence for themto not think, oh, if I carry
insects at my restaurant, I might lose people might not want

(48:39):
to come. So providing the the information
and also the educational component so that we can have
children exposed to insects as food, not as a pest that
something disgusting or something that is not food.
And so these are just some of the big questions and

(49:00):
challenges. You know, I didn't want to, I
didn't want to harp on these issues for too long because I
think there's so much positivityand hope and optimism that I can
share with what's going on in this industry.
But I did. I will bring up one thing
though. In going to Thailand, I thought
it would be the Mecca of eating insects.

(49:23):
I see so many videos and street food and things in there and it
was very disheartening. I spoke with chefs, I spoke with
professors, students, people on the street.
And through all this, this oral interviews and stuff, most of
the people were like, we, we don't really eat insects.

(49:46):
That's for tourists and for poorpeople in the northern region.
And what I'm finding is this, that sense of shame because of
globalization. We now have Wi-Fi in the Amazon.
We now have Wi-Fi in remote regions all around the world.
And so they have access and theysee the attitudes of other

(50:10):
people towards insects. And so now we're seeing the
younger generations feeling shame of this food source
they've been eating for millennia.
And the parents, they, they're, they're moving away from that to
eat like all this processed, prepackaged food and everything.
And so this poses like these bigquestions of like how do we

(50:32):
bring the dignity and respect sothat people with this long
history of eating insects, can it once again embrace it and not
feel shame, give them a seat at the table of leadership so that
insect agriculture isn't just run by these multi $1,000,000
Anglo Western countries? What are the lessons that we can

(50:53):
provide and how can we create a more equitable industry system
ecosystem with insect agriculture as we're just really
developing it into a multi billion dollar industry?
So these are all the complexities of what I'm trying
to navigate with the help of a lot of different universities
and institutions and thought leaders have been very generous

(51:16):
in engaging with me and hearing our problems and trying to be a
part of really solving these issues that that that will
require literally every single inner like academic discipline.
And so it's not just for chefs and for entomologists to like,
try to figure this out, but really every single academic

(51:37):
discipline that I can think of can get involved with insect
agriculture. Well, yeah, it's, I mean, it's a
it's a massive challenge. And I think, yeah, it would be
super interesting what we, what we get to see out of this, the
kind of advocacy you're doing. I think it's super important
that, as you said, every part ofthe site involves itself in it
and not just say chefs, because say chefs can open the the door

(51:57):
for it. I mean, that's how I tried.
I've tried my first silkworm in in the first restaurant I worked
then in Norma. I've tried ants.
I had some colleagues always in from Latin America and I tried
those. They call it the Omega colonna,
the the Ant with the big. Big butt ants.
Big butt ants. So yeah, like those, like I've
tried a few of them thanks to being in in the fine dining

(52:18):
scene. So I think restaurants do chefs
at this position do have the privilege to, you know, close,
like open those boundaries and see what else is out there.
And that somehow trickles down. But I think it has to be
accompanied with a very thoughtful process of the people
involved into it. So it doesn't become a trend
which just goes up and then everybody's eating it without

(52:39):
knowing where it's coming from. Are we ready to produce that
amount of insects? Is it going to be sustainable,
the production of these insects in the future?
So I think the job you're doing right now is is very important.
But I think the people listeningto the podcast is, is mostly I
think, I believe, I want to believe it's mostly chefs or
people who are interested with the food side of things.
Tell us about like all these travels that you've done.

(53:01):
I think that's for me the most attractive part.
If in in all these experiences, could you highlight some
culture, some community, some tribes, some people you met
where a certain insect is used and then you.
Yeah, I would say if you could tell us the use of it.
One of the things that I I really place a great emphasis on

(53:21):
is the respect that I must show when I travel and the general
stereotype of the loud braggadocious American and you
put in New Yorker on top of thatmale.
And so people have a certain expectation of this know it all
New Yorker chef who's going to come and tell us like all this

(53:45):
stuff. And so one, I just want to
squash all those like preconceived notions that people
may have built up and listen. And that's been a really big
skill that I've had to learn because you could probably tell
I'm quite loquacious. I love to talk, but, and so I
found it so important to listen.And when I was in Sarayaku in

(54:09):
the Amazon, in, in Ecuador, theyare facing these cataclysmic
flooding events that they would only experience maybe once every
50 or 100 years. Now they've had two in the past
five years. And when I learn about these
issues, it's like what what's happening is this human made

(54:31):
conditions. It's like, well, all the
deforestation and this is simplifying it tremendously, but
with all the deforestation, there's the water is now not
being soaked in the ground. It's continues to flood like
come downhill downstream and andjust like flood entire regions,
their chakras are all ruined. And so these are very important

(54:52):
narratives while I go down and try Chantakudo, the the big palm
weevils and I learn about their preparation things.
It's like, what stories am I learning and what is happening?
And so I think that's also a very important thing.
It's like when you travel and learning and then not to go

(55:13):
like, oh, well, what about doingthis, this and that?
It's like, no, let me just listen.
And what they would, the traditional way that they would
get these Chanta kudos is that they would typically just put
them on a, on a skewer and, and,and grill them or like kind of

(55:34):
BBQ them. And another one, the MiTo, which
is like my favorite way to eat the, the Chantakudo.
Now, so far it's been my favorite way.
And we went on this, this massive mountain hike and they
were like, do you want to go on an easy, medium or hard walk?
And, and I was going out with two of the younger, like really

(55:57):
fit guys. And I was like, well, and I
asked, I asked the dad. I was like, well, which one do
you do? He's like, Oh, the hard one's
easy for me. And I was like, all right, I'll
do the hard one. So we go up into the mountains
and it starts pouring rain into Amazon, into the Amazon.
It's a rainforest. And we had to find cover and
it's all in muddy and crazy. And then finally we we find this

(56:23):
palm tree. I'm like, oh, wow.
OK. And then they take their machete
and they just like, chop down this palm tree.
I'm like, wow, OK. And you see how wasteful like
this this is, if you're going todo it in in like a big farm to
produce palm oil, you know, for them, this is their chakra, this
is their land. This is what they do.

(56:45):
And once they chop it down, thenthey let the chanted kudos come
and then they harvest chanted kudos.
Their way is very regenerative and intentional.
But I just see like, OK, they cut it down and then they're
taking out the palm heart. So you have this huge tree and
they cut down and you take out the palm heart, which is just
like this tiny amount. And it's like, and I, and I
couldn't believe it. I was like, we have all those

(57:07):
palm trees like much closer. Why, why do we come all the way
up here? They're like, this is a very
special one. And we want to, you know, kind
of give you the special one because you're really, you want
to eat these chantakudos. And so we want to show you like
the best palm yet, get the best palm hearts that aren't
available down by the by, by the, by the village.

(57:29):
So we, we hike back and the, themom, Rosa, she prepares it.
And the MiTo is like basically you take either banana leaves or
palm leaves and you and we, we cut up the, the, the palm
hearts, put the Chantakudo in there, the palm weevils, wrap it
up and throw it on charcoal and you just let it cook.

(57:51):
And the beauty of the Chantakudo, they live in palm
trees. So they're going to have this
sweet sort of quality to it. If you think about coconuts and
just like, you know, it has a sweet quality to it, but then
like the flavors of how that mixes with the unctuousness,
they're very fatty as well. And how that all mixes on the

(58:12):
charcoal with the palm, palm hearts.
And it was just really the most exquisite way that that I, that
I ate him. Just like how all those flavors
come together. And, and in Korean, there's this
word Kiboon. It's like the feeling and the
feeling of being there walking up this tremendous mountain in

(58:33):
the rain and coming down to harvesting the palm hearts and
then putting it on the grill. It was just really fantastic
because of my relationship with the family and they, they know
that I'm a chef. So I was like, they're like, all
right, what do you want to make something?
And so I, I prepared three dishes with the Chanta Kudos.

(58:53):
I, I did one that was so I kind of like shaved some sticks and
made a shish kebab skewers and, and we did like the classic
shish kebab with some vegetables.
We did, I, I tried doing a ceviche, but in the limited
time, their skins are so thick that it didn't really permeate

(59:14):
the, the Chantakudo entirely. So you kind of had to dip it
after you kind of chewed a little bit.
So I think that needs a longer preparation time or, or a
different way for a successful ceviche with the, with the
Chantakudos. And then we also did a plancha
just like kind of frying pan with aromatics and, and tried
that as well. So I just love that their

(59:37):
willingness to invite me into the kitchen.
And you know, Rosa is a very, very dear.
I, I stayed with her and her family.
And what I found really amazing and so beautiful is that we
would go on hikes together and, and typically with Esther and
Harrow, it's like they're not like the woman.

(59:59):
The indigenous Quicho women aren't going out and spending
time with like a man alone. Like out foraging for Yuka with
that value typically be with another male or in a group or
something. But we really befriended one
another and we had so many laughs.

(01:00:19):
Like just kind of shared in the kitchen space and, and, and
Gerardo, her, her husband and I,we, he's kind of like I, we,
they, they really kind of adopted me into their, into
their family. And so it's just like really
incredible, incredible, beautiful sort of experiences
learning how to how to cook and sharing food.

(01:00:40):
And I was also the first Korean that they ever met.
And they're the the oldest sisters are, are going to school
and in the city. And so they got into like K pop
and K drama. So they come home and they're so
excited. So I was teaching the kids
Korean and like, they're all it was like really just like not
missing out on these special experiences to allow yourself

(01:01:06):
to, to just kind of immerse yourself with the people and,
and, and like that. Those are really the big
takeaways, maybe even more than the experiences of eating
insects with different people, but really the humanity and
learning and showing that care and and feeling like really
embraced and welcome as a part of their family from these

(01:01:29):
experiences. Now it's really cool.
I mean the yeah, the way you gotexperience this, I feel the
whole not just not just they're going up for the palm tree, but
also like connecting with this community, connecting what their
daily life is like. It's not just it's not like not
putting them into bubble of likethe people that you drop in your
head who would eat insects are also as normal as the ones who

(01:01:50):
want to learn about K pop. So they're if if they can adopt
it and they can teach us their ways.
And also you being a storytellerto take the story forward to
places maybe their voices can't get to to to do this.
I feel it's very essential you get to see the whole journey and
not just go on an insect tour orsomething guided by a few men

(01:02:11):
from the from the village, but to get experienced as I think
before we wrap up, I had a few questions for you.
Like the people listening over here, as I, as I told you, chef
before, are people who are possibly in restaurants, people
who have left restaurants for other other carriers.
What would you like to share with them in terms of for
somebody who wants to make a transition like yours on like
you had an idea, you saw that report from from FAO and you,

(01:02:32):
you jumped upon that opportunityto, to dive deeper into it, to
find a find your purpose or your, your what in what sort of
way could you contribute to thispurpose?
What advice would you give to people?
So it's not about not more aboutlike how can you get better at
say maybe insect advocacy, but more about having an idea like
the one you had back then or with the with the, with the pop

(01:02:53):
up business, for example. They also, you had an idea
shifting from music. So for somebody who has an idea
like that and wants to make the transition, what kind of advice
would you give to people like that?
And then if any any other thing you want to share with people
listening, this is your, this isyour time.
Thank you so much for calling. And I, I really think that in

(01:03:13):
attempting something new and maybe have this like great idea,
a really big part for me is the intention.
What's the intention of why you want to do something?
And if you find this great connection to purpose, then that

(01:03:33):
will give you the conviction to be fearless and to be able to to
take chances. And when you think about your
intention, maybe you need to make a lot of money because you
have debts. Maybe your intention is to do
something altruistic for the world.
I think we all have to be honestwith what that intention is and

(01:03:58):
cultivate the importance of whatthat means and how we can take
our power and our chi, our energy to really contributing
back to the world. And to me, that's been among the
most important things for me is like, I've been so incredibly

(01:04:22):
blessed to follow the passions in my life from from music to
food and now to global food systems.
And to really believe in that work so much that, at least for
me, it's not driven by the the shorter sightedness of what will
make the most money, but really being finding that purpose.

(01:04:45):
And so that that's what I would encourage and, and attempting
new things or trying things out is like really think about what
your intention is, find your purpose in life and, and really
do it with like great kindness. And yeah, think about how that
will impact people around you. Yeah, such a such a beautiful

(01:05:06):
thought to wrap up, I think yeah, finding your purpose.
And I think even better if the purpose is 1 like yours, which
is solving the bigger, bigger problems out there, at least
making an attempt to to to contribute.
I wouldn't say fix. I think the system still is
working. But yeah, attempting to
contribute to it, to make it better.
I think that's a that's a great thought.
So, yeah, thank you so much, Joseph, for your time.

(01:05:28):
It's been an utmost pleasure. I do not think I'll again have
any insect advocate, a chef turned insect advocate in this
podcast. So it's it's an honor to have
you. And yeah, thank you so much for
your time. Thank you so much for calling,
the honor is mine. And yeah, bug out petite.

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