March 8, 2024 • 16 mins
In this episode, we delve into the serious issues brought forward by the tragic Sarah Everard case. The story of Sarah Everard, a victim of former police officer Wayne Cousins, confronts us with the frightening reality of sexual abuse committed by rogue police officers within the very institution meant to protect us. We explore this dreadful case in detail, focusing on the problematic systems that allowed Cousins to become and remain a police officer.
Given the disturbing nature of this discussion, listeners are cautioned that this topic might be upsetting. For those who are ready, we encourage you to join us as we unpack the concerns surrounding Wayne Cousins' employment and the broader implications of this issue within the police force.
We understand that these cases can be quite distressing and heartbreaking. Still, we believe it is crucial to bring these subjects to light for changes to be made. In this case, discussion topics revolve around the recruitment, vetting, and monitoring processes of police officers as well as the culture within the police force.
From our point of view, a legal minimum standard must be set and mandatory for the recruiting, vetting, and monitoring processes of police officers. By ensuring this, we hope to prevent future cases like the devastating case of Sarah Everard.
Lastly, we hope this podcast serves as a reminder to all victims of sexual abuse to understand that they have legal rights. They deserve to be supported and heard, and they have the right to seek accountability and compensation for the damage they have suffered.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, my name is Alan Collins. I'm the partner who heads up the abuse team
at Hugh James, and I'm joined by my colleagues, Kathleen Hallisey and Danielle
Vincent. Hi, Danny. Hi, Kathleen.
Hi, Alan. so thank you for joining us with our latest podcast as always with these podcasts i remind,
(00:20):
you that the content can be upsetting
disturbing because we're talking about matters that are
inevitably unpleasant because we're talking about sexual abuse
and serious sexual offenses and everything
that goes with it so understandably it
can be upsetting so if
you think you're going going to be troubled by this latest podcast now's the
(00:42):
time to switch off and go and do something else otherwise please do
stay with us in this
podcast we're going to be discussing the sarah everard
case that's the dreadful case of sarah
everard and the offender former police
officer wayne cousins so we're
(01:02):
going to be discussing not so much the ins and
outs of what happened because that's not really necessary but
we are going to be looking at how it was
that cousins became a police officer and remained
a police officer and of course he's
not an isolated case sadly there are other
rogue police officers who have.
(01:24):
Committed horrendous crimes and it
begs belief how they became policemen let alone remained
as police officers so that's what we're
going to to be looking at today so i'm going to hand over to
kathleen who can give us
a bit of background as to what we're going to be
actually discussing which is all around
(01:45):
how was it that cousins became a police officer remained a police officer and
i'm sure between the three of us we'll also touch upon other dreadful cases
where the same issues have arisen which poses a question how is it in 2024,
but we have this dreadful state of affairs. So over to you, Kathleen.
(02:08):
Thanks, Alan. So this has kind of all been prompted by the most recent BBC documentary
about Sarah Everard, and then also lots of press around the independent review that's.
The Sarah Everard case, and exactly what you say, Ellen, how Wayne Cousins became a police officer.
(02:29):
So I actually watched the documentary last night.
And one of the things that I just want to mention, because it was really surprising
to me, and I don't remember ever knowing about that before, was that he actually arrested her.
And that was how he was able to get her into his car.
I don't know, is that something that you guys were aware of?
I think towards the end of the press,
(02:52):
I think that became more apparent that that was the suggestion of how he got
her, you know, away from, you know, walking down the street.
Yeah, I mean, apparently it seems that because it was lockdown,
he, you know, arrested her for, I don't know, breaking lockdown rules and handcuffed
(03:12):
her and put her in his car.
So, you know, and used his warrant card, you know, flashing his badge, so to speak.
So I just was shocked by that in terms of all the more direct link,
his role as a police officer and obviously what happened to her.
But the thing that's been made clear by Lady Angiolini's review is that there
(03:35):
were allegations against him for decades, including before he joined the force,
and how if those things had been taken seriously, either A, not letting him join the force,
or B, when there were allegations made against him that they were properly investigated,
then the possibility is certainly that Sarah would still be alive.
(03:57):
Yes, and of course we know from other inquiries, looking into how it was that
he became a police officer and remained a police officer,
that it's quite clear that the College of Policing has guidance on minimum standards,
but of course it's only guidance, and police forces up and down the land,
(04:22):
and can follow guidance, but they're doing it perhaps in their own way.
There's no legal yardstick to vet by, so to speak.
And what we have seen from these inquiries is that police officers have been
recruited with criminal records.
(04:43):
Or they've had allegations made against them, and they've been given the benefit
of the doubt or what they are supposed to have done has been minimized in some way.
And of course, in this day and age, we've got social media as well.
And I think it's been seen that, you know, some officers perhaps should not
(05:04):
have been recruited in the first place because of what they've posted,
perhaps on social media and so on. And I think,
because there isn't this minimum legal standard you get variation and you get
as i said people being given the benefit of the doubt and recruited when objectively
if someone has stood back,
(05:25):
would have said well actually no this person isn't really suitable to be a police officer.
And it was also seeing that references weren't taken
up again which you think is a would
think think is a sort of glaring failure and of
course once someone has been recruited they're
recruited but people do change you know
(05:48):
a 40 year old may be a
very different person to what he or she was when they were
20 and of course one has to recognize that being a police officer is a role
that is privileged in many ways it has great responsibilities with it but also
comes stresses and strains and it would not be unsurprising if the stresses
(06:11):
and strains of the job changes,
someone over time not that that makes any kind of excuse but the point is what
i'm saying is that a 40 year old could be a very different person to when they
were 20 and that brings me on to to Cousins again and other officers,
(06:32):
why weren't they rigorously monitored and revetted.
Periodically during their careers?
Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, you make a really good point about,
you know, who you are when you're 20, when you join the force can be different
of the person you are 20 years later when you're 40.
I think the thing with Cousins, though, is that even before he joined the force,
(06:53):
there were allegations that he had sexually assaulted at a young girl.
And you have to question how is it even possible that he was even able to then
join the police force at all.
But then that, you know, there were then these multiple allegations against
him of indecent exposure that seem to have not been, not seem to have been,
they weren't properly investigated.
And, you know, those are considered kind of an escalation in terms of sexual
(07:16):
offenses that then do lead to contact offending.
So, you know, I think that's concerning. And we're talking about multiple police forces here.
It's not just the Met, Kent, CNC, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary,
and the Met, who had these reports about him over years, 2015,
2020, and then only a few days before Sarah was kidnapped and murdered.
So there's clearly really significant issues.
(07:39):
I think one of the things that was surprising to me in the documentary was that
the officers who were conducting the investigation into Sarah's disappearance,
when they found out that Wayne Cousins, they identified Cousins first and were
on their way to interview him and arrest him, then discovered that he was a
serving police officer. And they were all shocked. Yeah.
(08:03):
It really struck me when I was thinking about it afterwards. Why were they shocked?
Just because someone's a police officer doesn't mean that they can't be a sexual
predator or murderer. They could be all sorts of things.
So I just thought that kind of showed a bit of naivety that was also troubling.
You know, that you have to be
(08:23):
able to kind of recognize what's within your own midst as well, I think.
Is it naivety or is it culture?
Well, yeah, maybe both or maybe culture. I don't know.
You know, I mean, culture is clearly an issue and that's been highlighted in
Lady Elish's report, certainly.
But I know one of the things that she recommends is a better vetting,
as you were saying, Alan, you know, that there kind of should be repeated vetting
(08:46):
of people because, you know, you're different when you're 40 than you were when you were 20.
Money. And that better vetting could include in-person interviews and home visits.
But that, to me, just didn't even seem sufficient.
I don't know what other vetting also takes place. But as you were saying,
kind of a deep dive into someone's social media, what they discovered about
(09:06):
Wayne Cousins was that he was addicted to extreme and violent pornography.
Which is, as we know, know, an indicator for people to go on and sexually offend and sexually abuse.
So I feel like it needs to be much more in depth.
And I also wondered whether there should be psychological assessments of police
officers or candidates before allowing them to join the force.
(09:30):
Well, that's a good point, because, you know, police officers do get exposed
to terrible events, matters and so on.
And it's bound
to have an impact as we all go
through life we get you know scars on our
back so to speak from you know from just life
(09:50):
you know but you know if you're exposed to
a lot of you know really unpleasant stuff but
you know it is going to make a
mark but one hopes it you know is dealt with in
a rational way and not a damaging way
but again you know that should be
looked at maybe you know periodically
(10:13):
officers should be psychologically tested to
make sure that everything is okay it must
be worth doing because the way
the police are going on at the moment with these
terrible cases it's doing enormous damage
not just to the victims of course you know to say the obvious but to the reputation
(10:36):
of the forces you know they're standing with the general public and of course
the effect on the officers themselves and their colleagues and so on you know
the price must be enormous in human terms you know when someone like.
Cousins is able to do what they do yeah
absolutely well as kathleen mentions you know
(10:58):
this idea of looking into people's media is
social history and things like that that's done in other
organizations i know specifically with regards
to people when they apply for gchq there's a
huge vetting process that can take up to a year you
know the individual's family are looked at if there's
any criminal history lots of things like that but also
(11:19):
very much so you know are there any skeletons in the
closet there and regarding you know
this particular case i'm sure his social media would
have been fought with you know red flags here
yeah no that's a really that's a
really good point dan actually and you know i mean the lady ellish is saying
that there's a his crime sit on the same continuum as she put it as sexist and
(11:42):
misogynist behavior within police culture and i think you're absolutely right
in terms of there would be stuff likely on his social media and i'm sure lots
of of other officers who are still serving,
that would be sexist and misogynistic.
And that probably all needs to be looked at and rooted out to avoid this type of tragedy again.
Exactly, exactly. Well, it's going to be down to the politicians to take a lead
(12:08):
on this, because these problems have been sort of circulating for quite some time now.
And I, I, I may be completely wrong.
I can see no lead being taken.
To establish a legal minimum standard for recruiting, vetting,
monitoring, what we've been talking about.
(12:30):
And it's down to government and the politicians saying, right,
there needs to be a law that says this is what each force must do, and it's not optional.
No, absolutely. And I think, I mean, James cleverly announced yesterday that
they're They're going to be taking a number of measures in response to the report,
including the automatic suspension of officers charged with certain offenses,
(12:54):
which, again, all sounds well and good, except we're talking about charge.
And the problem with Wayne Cousins and David Carrick, the other Met police officer
who was jailed for dozens of rapes and sexual offenses against 12 women last
year, there were reports, but they were never investigated.
So it never would have gotten to the point of charging.
So that doesn't seem like it's going to help at all.
(13:16):
No and it's after the event isn't it it's it's it's trying to prevent all this harm.
Being caused in the first place it reminds
me a bit of the proposed mandatory reporting a suspension
after they're charged well you know yeah they were
never charged to begin with no that's right you
(13:38):
know it's a it's a it's a plaster job isn't
it you know it's it's you know know it's you know
it's i suppose it's better than
nothing but it's missing the point so that's exactly
right you just hit the nail on the head it's it is missing
the point entirely and i just don't
i i just don't get it why these politicians you know it's a sort of open goal
(14:02):
as to what they need to do and they just don't get on and do it i think it's
just generally i don't you know it's I've met the Home Secretary a couple of
weeks ago, and that was on the...
The victim's bill in parliament and the provision that sort of excludes accountability,
(14:23):
i'm sure he'll forgive me if i if i've
got this wrong but i came away with the impression that he didn't realize that
accountability was missing but you know anyway that's that's um that's by the
by if you start me on on that we'll be here all day so anyway so the point the point The point is,
(14:43):
isn't it, that to prevent more Wayne Cousins and David Carricks and the like,
there needs to be a legal standard for vetting that all police forces must adhere to. Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's obviously clearly a lot of work to be done here.
I mean, it seems to me like it's a complete overhaul that needs to happen of
(15:03):
the process going forward.
But also they need to really be taking a look at all of their officers now,
their serving officers, what they're up to.
Well, and I also hope, of course, that the victims have been told that they have legal rights.
You know, they've been sexually assaulted, harmed by these rogue police officers.
(15:24):
They are entitled to look to accountability, not simply.
And that doesn't simply stop when the offender gets sentenced and sent to prison
because they've got to pick up the pieces and try and rebuild their lives so
all victims of sexual abuse.
Under the victim's code are supposed to be told that very often they are not
(15:45):
but under the victim's code victims of sexual offenses and any other offense
are supposed to be told about their Their rights to achieve accountability,
for example, compensation to compensate them for the damage that they have suffered
and that they should go and get specialist legal advice. Yeah, absolutely.
(16:08):
So on that note, thank you very much for listening. Please do join us for our next podcast.
And it just remains for me to say thanks and goodbye.
And it's goodbye from Danny and it's goodbye from Kathleen. Bye, everyone. Thank you.
Hello, my name is Alan Collins. I'm the partner who heads up the abuse team
at Hugh James, and I'm joined by my colleagues, Kathleen Hallisey and Danielle
Vincent. Hi, Danny. Hi, Kathleen.
Hi, Alan. so thank you for joining us with our latest podcast as always with these podcasts i remind,
(00:20):
you that the content can be upsetting
disturbing because we're talking about matters that are
inevitably unpleasant because we're talking about sexual abuse
and serious sexual offenses and everything
that goes with it so understandably it
can be upsetting so if
you think you're going going to be troubled by this latest podcast now's the
(00:42):
time to switch off and go and do something else otherwise please do
stay with us in this
podcast we're going to be discussing the sarah everard
case that's the dreadful case of sarah
everard and the offender former police
officer wayne cousins so we're
(01:02):
going to be discussing not so much the ins and
outs of what happened because that's not really necessary but
we are going to be looking at how it was
that cousins became a police officer and remained
a police officer and of course he's
not an isolated case sadly there are other
rogue police officers who have.
(01:24):
Committed horrendous crimes and it
begs belief how they became policemen let alone remained
as police officers so that's what we're
going to to be looking at today so i'm going to hand over to
kathleen who can give us
a bit of background as to what we're going to be
actually discussing which is all around
(01:45):
how was it that cousins became a police officer remained a police officer and
i'm sure between the three of us we'll also touch upon other dreadful cases
where the same issues have arisen which poses a question how is it in 2024,
but we have this dreadful state of affairs. So over to you, Kathleen.
(02:08):
Thanks, Alan. So this has kind of all been prompted by the most recent BBC documentary
about Sarah Everard, and then also lots of press around the independent review that's.
The Sarah Everard case, and exactly what you say, Ellen, how Wayne Cousins became a police officer.
(02:29):
So I actually watched the documentary last night.
And one of the things that I just want to mention, because it was really surprising
to me, and I don't remember ever knowing about that before, was that he actually arrested her.
And that was how he was able to get her into his car.
I don't know, is that something that you guys were aware of?
I think towards the end of the press,
(02:52):
I think that became more apparent that that was the suggestion of how he got
her, you know, away from, you know, walking down the street.
Yeah, I mean, apparently it seems that because it was lockdown,
he, you know, arrested her for, I don't know, breaking lockdown rules and handcuffed
(03:12):
her and put her in his car.
So, you know, and used his warrant card, you know, flashing his badge, so to speak.
So I just was shocked by that in terms of all the more direct link,
his role as a police officer and obviously what happened to her.
But the thing that's been made clear by Lady Angiolini's review is that there
(03:35):
were allegations against him for decades, including before he joined the force,
and how if those things had been taken seriously, either A, not letting him join the force,
or B, when there were allegations made against him that they were properly investigated,
then the possibility is certainly that Sarah would still be alive.
(03:57):
Yes, and of course we know from other inquiries, looking into how it was that
he became a police officer and remained a police officer,
that it's quite clear that the College of Policing has guidance on minimum standards,
but of course it's only guidance, and police forces up and down the land,
(04:22):
and can follow guidance, but they're doing it perhaps in their own way.
There's no legal yardstick to vet by, so to speak.
And what we have seen from these inquiries is that police officers have been
recruited with criminal records.
(04:43):
Or they've had allegations made against them, and they've been given the benefit
of the doubt or what they are supposed to have done has been minimized in some way.
And of course, in this day and age, we've got social media as well.
And I think it's been seen that, you know, some officers perhaps should not
(05:04):
have been recruited in the first place because of what they've posted,
perhaps on social media and so on. And I think,
because there isn't this minimum legal standard you get variation and you get
as i said people being given the benefit of the doubt and recruited when objectively
if someone has stood back,
(05:25):
would have said well actually no this person isn't really suitable to be a police officer.
And it was also seeing that references weren't taken
up again which you think is a would
think think is a sort of glaring failure and of
course once someone has been recruited they're
recruited but people do change you know
(05:48):
a 40 year old may be a
very different person to what he or she was when they were
20 and of course one has to recognize that being a police officer is a role
that is privileged in many ways it has great responsibilities with it but also
comes stresses and strains and it would not be unsurprising if the stresses
(06:11):
and strains of the job changes,
someone over time not that that makes any kind of excuse but the point is what
i'm saying is that a 40 year old could be a very different person to when they
were 20 and that brings me on to to Cousins again and other officers,
(06:32):
why weren't they rigorously monitored and revetted.
Periodically during their careers?
Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, you make a really good point about,
you know, who you are when you're 20, when you join the force can be different
of the person you are 20 years later when you're 40.
I think the thing with Cousins, though, is that even before he joined the force,
(06:53):
there were allegations that he had sexually assaulted at a young girl.
And you have to question how is it even possible that he was even able to then
join the police force at all.
But then that, you know, there were then these multiple allegations against
him of indecent exposure that seem to have not been, not seem to have been,
they weren't properly investigated.
And, you know, those are considered kind of an escalation in terms of sexual
(07:16):
offenses that then do lead to contact offending.
So, you know, I think that's concerning. And we're talking about multiple police forces here.
It's not just the Met, Kent, CNC, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary,
and the Met, who had these reports about him over years, 2015,
2020, and then only a few days before Sarah was kidnapped and murdered.
So there's clearly really significant issues.
(07:39):
I think one of the things that was surprising to me in the documentary was that
the officers who were conducting the investigation into Sarah's disappearance,
when they found out that Wayne Cousins, they identified Cousins first and were
on their way to interview him and arrest him, then discovered that he was a
serving police officer. And they were all shocked. Yeah.
(08:03):
It really struck me when I was thinking about it afterwards. Why were they shocked?
Just because someone's a police officer doesn't mean that they can't be a sexual
predator or murderer. They could be all sorts of things.
So I just thought that kind of showed a bit of naivety that was also troubling.
You know, that you have to be
(08:23):
able to kind of recognize what's within your own midst as well, I think.
Is it naivety or is it culture?
Well, yeah, maybe both or maybe culture. I don't know.
You know, I mean, culture is clearly an issue and that's been highlighted in
Lady Elish's report, certainly.
But I know one of the things that she recommends is a better vetting,
as you were saying, Alan, you know, that there kind of should be repeated vetting
(08:46):
of people because, you know, you're different when you're 40 than you were when you were 20.
Money. And that better vetting could include in-person interviews and home visits.
But that, to me, just didn't even seem sufficient.
I don't know what other vetting also takes place. But as you were saying,
kind of a deep dive into someone's social media, what they discovered about
(09:06):
Wayne Cousins was that he was addicted to extreme and violent pornography.
Which is, as we know, know, an indicator for people to go on and sexually offend and sexually abuse.
So I feel like it needs to be much more in depth.
And I also wondered whether there should be psychological assessments of police
officers or candidates before allowing them to join the force.
(09:30):
Well, that's a good point, because, you know, police officers do get exposed
to terrible events, matters and so on.
And it's bound
to have an impact as we all go
through life we get you know scars on our
back so to speak from you know from just life
(09:50):
you know but you know if you're exposed to
a lot of you know really unpleasant stuff but
you know it is going to make a
mark but one hopes it you know is dealt with in
a rational way and not a damaging way
but again you know that should be
looked at maybe you know periodically
(10:13):
officers should be psychologically tested to
make sure that everything is okay it must
be worth doing because the way
the police are going on at the moment with these
terrible cases it's doing enormous damage
not just to the victims of course you know to say the obvious but to the reputation
(10:36):
of the forces you know they're standing with the general public and of course
the effect on the officers themselves and their colleagues and so on you know
the price must be enormous in human terms you know when someone like.
Cousins is able to do what they do yeah
absolutely well as kathleen mentions you know
(10:58):
this idea of looking into people's media is
social history and things like that that's done in other
organizations i know specifically with regards
to people when they apply for gchq there's a
huge vetting process that can take up to a year you
know the individual's family are looked at if there's
any criminal history lots of things like that but also
(11:19):
very much so you know are there any skeletons in the
closet there and regarding you know
this particular case i'm sure his social media would
have been fought with you know red flags here
yeah no that's a really that's a
really good point dan actually and you know i mean the lady ellish is saying
that there's a his crime sit on the same continuum as she put it as sexist and
(11:42):
misogynist behavior within police culture and i think you're absolutely right
in terms of there would be stuff likely on his social media and i'm sure lots
of of other officers who are still serving,
that would be sexist and misogynistic.
And that probably all needs to be looked at and rooted out to avoid this type of tragedy again.
Exactly, exactly. Well, it's going to be down to the politicians to take a lead
(12:08):
on this, because these problems have been sort of circulating for quite some time now.
And I, I, I may be completely wrong.
I can see no lead being taken.
To establish a legal minimum standard for recruiting, vetting,
monitoring, what we've been talking about.
(12:30):
And it's down to government and the politicians saying, right,
there needs to be a law that says this is what each force must do, and it's not optional.
No, absolutely. And I think, I mean, James cleverly announced yesterday that
they're They're going to be taking a number of measures in response to the report,
including the automatic suspension of officers charged with certain offenses,
(12:54):
which, again, all sounds well and good, except we're talking about charge.
And the problem with Wayne Cousins and David Carrick, the other Met police officer
who was jailed for dozens of rapes and sexual offenses against 12 women last
year, there were reports, but they were never investigated.
So it never would have gotten to the point of charging.
So that doesn't seem like it's going to help at all.
(13:16):
No and it's after the event isn't it it's it's it's trying to prevent all this harm.
Being caused in the first place it reminds
me a bit of the proposed mandatory reporting a suspension
after they're charged well you know yeah they were
never charged to begin with no that's right you
(13:38):
know it's a it's a it's a plaster job isn't
it you know it's it's you know know it's you know
it's i suppose it's better than
nothing but it's missing the point so that's exactly
right you just hit the nail on the head it's it is missing
the point entirely and i just don't
i i just don't get it why these politicians you know it's a sort of open goal
(14:02):
as to what they need to do and they just don't get on and do it i think it's
just generally i don't you know it's I've met the Home Secretary a couple of
weeks ago, and that was on the...
The victim's bill in parliament and the provision that sort of excludes accountability,
(14:23):
i'm sure he'll forgive me if i if i've
got this wrong but i came away with the impression that he didn't realize that
accountability was missing but you know anyway that's that's um that's by the
by if you start me on on that we'll be here all day so anyway so the point the point The point is,
(14:43):
isn't it, that to prevent more Wayne Cousins and David Carricks and the like,
there needs to be a legal standard for vetting that all police forces must adhere to. Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's obviously clearly a lot of work to be done here.
I mean, it seems to me like it's a complete overhaul that needs to happen of
(15:03):
the process going forward.
But also they need to really be taking a look at all of their officers now,
their serving officers, what they're up to.
Well, and I also hope, of course, that the victims have been told that they have legal rights.
You know, they've been sexually assaulted, harmed by these rogue police officers.
(15:24):
They are entitled to look to accountability, not simply.
And that doesn't simply stop when the offender gets sentenced and sent to prison
because they've got to pick up the pieces and try and rebuild their lives so
all victims of sexual abuse.
Under the victim's code are supposed to be told that very often they are not
(15:45):
but under the victim's code victims of sexual offenses and any other offense
are supposed to be told about their Their rights to achieve accountability,
for example, compensation to compensate them for the damage that they have suffered
and that they should go and get specialist legal advice. Yeah, absolutely.
(16:08):
So on that note, thank you very much for listening. Please do join us for our next podcast.
And it just remains for me to say thanks and goodbye.
And it's goodbye from Danny and it's goodbye from Kathleen. Bye, everyone. Thank you.
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