April 2, 2024 • 37 mins
This is an encore episode while I focus on my teaching.
This week's guest is Jackie Schuld.
Jackie was gracious to do the interview while she was in the process of moving from the Southwest to the Northeast. No, it wasn't while she was driving a U-Haul truck along an interstate highway.
Jackie is our third guest to discuss autism. Her view is a bit different as she uses art to work with newly identified autistics and those who suspect they might be autistic.
Her objective is to help autistics who felt broken their entire lives, who experienced a lifetime of feeling too much and yet not enough, or who couldn't learn to trust themselves, because they believed something was wrong with them.
To learn more about Jackie's methods, visit her website HERE. Many of her clients live around the country and work remotely with her.
Jackie is also an author. Check out Grief is a Mess.
By the way, the photo is of Jackie standing in front of my favorite work of her art.
Note: Oftentimes, links are not available on platforms such as Apple, iHeart, etc.. They are available within this episode on our website at https://lifesaroadtrip.podbean.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Being disabled or having a chronic illness can feel like you're moving forward in reverse.
(00:21):
I'm your host Scott Martin.
Join me and my new friends in this underrepresented community as we talk about disrupting the
status quo and creating change within the world and within ourselves.
A life's a road trip.
Hop in.
Let's turn on some tunes and go.
(00:56):
With me in the past, managing the radio is Jackie Schuld.
I'm taking my intro from the About Me page on your website, which says it best.
It reads, Hello, I'm Jackie.
I'm overflowing with joy in awe that I am an art therapist and counselor.
I love what I do.
It blends my insatiable interest in psychology, my love for art and my desire to help people
(01:17):
live more intentional, meaningful lives.
I appreciate that every day I get to have deep conversations with others about topics
that significantly impact their well-being.
I love working together to explore the answers to the complex questions like, why do I feel
so much?
If I know better, why can't I manage to do better?
(01:39):
How do I stop worrying so much?
And my life seems good.
Why can't I manage to be happy?
I've intentionally worked to face and explore my own questions.
I know change is possible because I've walked the journey and I see it around me daily.
I feel honored to bring the hope to others that at times felt so very out of reach for
(02:00):
me.
Hi, Jackie.
Hello.
You told me that you're on the East Coast for this week or so.
What are you doing out there?
I am in the process of moving.
So I'm here to just get something situated.
Okay.
And how's that going for you?
It's fun.
How unboxed are you?
(02:21):
Oh, not at all.
I haven't even packed.
So I'm not.
That's the norm.
This is the problem there.
Yeah.
Okay.
And it's going to take you months.
Oh, yeah.
That's what happens.
Okay.
All right.
Well, you know, welcome to the East Coast out there.
I must tell you that I love your art.
That's one of the first things I started digging into on you to see how what sort of products
(02:43):
you were able to put out.
And actually, folks that on the Life's of Road Trip website is the image that I like
my favorite of Jackie's pieces.
So take a look at that.
Now you were moving from Tucson and I wanted to ask you, do you get a lot of your inspiration
for a lot of your art, especially the colors from your surroundings when you were in Tucson?
(03:07):
No, because I'm an abstract artist primarily and it's coming from my feelings most of the
time.
Well, your feelings have great colors.
Because that's what attracted me.
It's very interesting.
And we're going to get into a book that you've illustrated and written a little bit later
(03:28):
in the show.
And I think folks should go on there and give you a taste of what you do because I really
like it personally.
Now I want to first open with getting into an article that you wrote.
It's titled I experience that too.
Does that mean I'm autistic?
That appeared on medium.com.
I'm going to link for that, folks, is on the Life's A Road Trip website.
(03:51):
So you can get in there and read it.
And it opens with whenever I explain a specific characteristic about autism, someone inevitably
mentions, but I have that experience too.
Does that mean I'm autistic?
Here's what I tell them.
Go on.
What do you say?
Okay.
First of all, I want to say I'm impressed that you were so up on my reading.
That was released.
I think it's last week.
(04:12):
Oh, yeah.
Dude.
I'm on there.
That's impressive.
Yes, I wrote that because really almost every essay I write, I have someone commenting.
Yeah, but I have that too.
Does that mean I'm autistic?
And so I wanted to clarify about that because autism is a range of characteristics.
(04:37):
And so it's likely that some human will, almost every human will inevitably have one of those
characteristics.
What is different is that they will not have all of them that autistics have as well as
the intensity of the characteristic or the frequency with it with which it occurs.
So this is autism has a spectrum, I believe.
(05:00):
And but there are various ranges within that spectrum.
Yeah.
How do you know that you're autistic?
How are you how are you labeled that?
Well, that's two questions actually.
Well, because there's one one question you're asking is essentially like, how do I get diagnosed?
(05:21):
And then there's another question of like, how do you know you're autistic, which is
a very fitting question right now, because many people are choosing to not pursue diagnosis.
And that's because the current diagnosis model for autism is primarily based on the
diagnostics and to statistics manual, which for anyone who doesn't know, that's basically
(05:45):
just what lays out all the different mental health disorders.
And for autism, it's based on the external behaviors.
And they came up with those by primarily observing young white cis boys.
And so what they're finding is this doesn't actually reflect the experience of other genders,
(06:07):
of other races, of other classes of people, as well as it doesn't reflect the interior
experience of autism.
Okay.
So fast forward to your like, okay, what is autism?
So I conceptualize autism very differently than the DSM five.
What I am looking at is how a person perceives the world, like how their sensory system is
(06:31):
taking in information, as well as how their brain feels and thinks, because an autistic
person has far more neural connections that are constantly firing.
And it causes other parallel pathways to fire at the same time, meaning your brain is just
like, okay, okay, okay, okay, all the time, okay, which which then causes characteristics
(06:58):
in like six primary categories.
So when I'm working with someone, we're looking at those six categories.
Right.
Now you mentioned, correct me if I'm wrong, earlier that people tend not to want to be
identified, they avoid.
Well, they, some people are choosing to self identify like to say I am autistic, instead
(07:19):
of pursuing a formal diagnosis, because many times it's difficult to find a practitioner
who has gone on with continuing education to really understand autism from a neuro diverse
lens, which neuro diverse just means this perspective that it presents differently for
different genders and different people, and that it's not a disorder.
(07:43):
Like we're here saying we as autistics and for anyone who doesn't know, I am autistic,
we are saying this is not a disorder.
This is a different neuro type and it's okay to be that it's not something we need to fix.
Got it.
Now a few weeks ago, I did a show with Becca Lori Hector, and she is autistic as well.
(08:05):
And we discussed autism and she was mentioning insurance issues and how it tends to be set
up people of later stages.
And I'm going to, we're going to be a good segue into what we're now going to get into.
How insurance, you need to be able to be identified as being autistic early on in order to gain
(08:27):
the benefits of insurance, because otherwise what Becca was saying is they tend to avoid
wanting to pay for bills, because they would go back and say, well, you weren't identified
early on.
So that seems to be a struggle that autistics are having as well.
So let's get into the segue then, because you also wrote another article.
(08:49):
When I learned I was autistic, it all made sense.
And linked to this is going to be on the Life's Road Trip website.
In it, you interview Priscilla Stuckey and about late identified autism.
In an earlier episode of, oh, I already went over Becca, but I want to get into what you
(09:10):
asked her the question, how do you feel when you learned you were autistic?
And she responded, relieved, exclamation.
It was totally unexpected, a lot of relief.
I have a lifelong habit of observing and seeking to understand my own internal rhythms.
And over the years, I made a sense, a lot of sense about them.
(09:32):
But there were a few things I kept tripping over, like being a head banger as a child,
what was with that she wrote.
I get so overwhelmed from time to time, and she says, what's that all about?
Where I find other people reacting to me in ways that seem kind of well odd.
When I learned I was autistic, it all made sense every last piece.
(09:53):
I felt so relieved.
And after the relief, I felt gratitude.
So would you please get into the late stage, someone finding out when she was 64, what
that's like.
Yes.
And this is becoming more and more common.
There are people of that age who find out they're autistic, they're referred to as the
(10:16):
lost generation, because we simply didn't know enough about autism for them to be identified
when they were younger.
And so typically, their whole life, they go feeling like there's something different
about me, but I don't know what it is.
And just sensing that they're off, that they're weird.
And so it becomes a huge relief to know, oh, it's just that my brain function.
(10:41):
It's different than most people.
I'm not broken.
And I just have a different operating system.
And you seem to now second time to me as a person that's not labeled as autistic.
And I'm not going to say, oh, why?
That happens to me.
Maybe I am.
Now I'm not going to do that.
But it seems that you're really into simplifying it and trying to get away from the taboos of
(11:06):
autism.
So therefore, you must be a certain way.
But again, what I'm getting from you and learning some of this now is that it is how
you described it before.
It's just how the brain functions differently.
That's all it is.
And people need to understand that and stop the stupid labels.
Um, stupid labels as in people from my perspective, and I substitute teaching.
(11:34):
I used to teach and I was around students all the time that if someone, well, students
like the label and I know that society likes to label as well, and it seemed that the labels
tend to be someone who's autistic.
So therefore they're definitely off.
And it's not an understanding of it's just the mind working as you phrased it earlier,
(11:59):
just kind of going haywire.
There's not that understanding.
Yes.
I see what you're saying now.
I just wanted to be clear because some people also ask me like, well, why do you even need
the label autistic if you're just self-identifying?
And I feel, you know, in this case, it unlocks a lot of information for you and understanding
(12:20):
about yourself.
But I know that wasn't your point.
No, I do get it though.
No, I think that that does branch off or is a bridge to what I was talking about because
it still comes down to education and there's a lacking education and people having an understanding
on how things are and hopefully things are getting better because that's where I'm trying
to take the show now.
(12:41):
Anyway, let's venture off and I'm going to open up your book.
And it's called Grief as a Mass.
And this is related, well, I'll just read it.
And the opening, it says, for my mom, I still cannot believe that I have to live the rest
of my life without you.
Thank you for loving me unconditionally, showing me how to laugh to mitts pain and encouraging
(13:04):
me to use my skills to help others.
I love you more.
Could you get into it?
I mean, obviously that's the inspiration your mother passed away.
What in swelp.
Let me see.
How can I phrase it?
I guess I'll just simplify.
From the backside of it, I read through what's available on Amazon.
(13:27):
And I think it's extremely helpful or would be extremely helpful for people.
It's not just autism.
It's how you presented things and you, again, simplified.
And that's what I'm finding you doing so far in the show and I appreciate Jackie.
So could you talk about that book, please?
Grief as a Mass.
Yes.
I wrote that the year after my mom died, that was nine years ago, which is crazy.
(13:53):
It's getting out there.
I was just so lost in sadness as well as everybody in my family responded to my mother's death
differently.
And there was a lot of pressure around like, well, why aren't you doing this?
Or why aren't you doing that?
And kind of everybody judging the other for how they were responding.
(14:17):
And so I made cartoons about it.
And so anyone who doesn't know my book, it's a book of illustrations about the book.
The range of grief from the different emotions we experienced to the different physical characteristics,
all those things.
And I just wanted to validate that range and to say like, look, none of us have the answers
(14:39):
of how to get through grief or just like breathing, trying to like, keep going.
And so maybe let's be a little nicer to ourselves than others in that.
And accept it.
Again, simplification.
And I'm going to one page, it says someone tried to tidy it up with five stages and it
looks like a cat, one denial, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance.
(15:04):
That I think says a lot.
And it's one of the earlier pages on setting people up for, oh, this is what's in the book.
And this helps them probably find comfort.
And I would assume that that was one of the rationale for what you were trying to do with
it.
But I think you do an outstanding job with a Jackie.
Thank you.
I think it shows off a lot of your talent again.
(15:27):
So it's that time in the show and we are starting to get noticed by folks and I've actually
found a couple of ads.
So we need to take a two second ad pause so someone can drop in and add here.
So here we go.
Okay, we're back.
Hopefully it was a decent ad and nothing so stupid.
(15:50):
Yeah, I actually was able to pick over what types of ads can be dropped.
And of course I stayed away from politics and anything like that because then I want some
politician getting on.
Anyway, can I ask a question about your ads?
Do you have people like individuals do ads too?
Like if they do like services for Autistics or something?
(16:11):
No, because what it is and I notice it today because my wife and I listened to Sirius XM
quite a bit.
And they just drop in ads or I should say Laura just drops in ads.
Okay, I'm listening to my Tom Petty radio station.
They'll just drop in a couple of ads.
It's all automated.
It's based on who's listening, where they're listening from and whether oh yeah, it's crazy.
(16:33):
Wow.
Yeah, no one else is doing it.
That's very sophisticated.
I'm learning a lot.
It's really cool.
And a couple of people, a couple of ads that have been dropped have been okay and please
I'm not because I can also cut them out.
If I hear an ad that I can pull it off.
Oh, that's nice.
Yeah, I have some control.
So yeah, folks, hopefully it's a McDonald's ad and you're hungry.
(16:55):
So let's shift gears and get into your podcast.
It's called Autistic Unscripted.
And I want to talk about making friends as an Autistic now.
I'll read a little opening from it.
It's an expansive new show, new talk show for two and I love this.
It's got a hashtag actually Autistic folks.
(17:19):
Join us as we explore the weird and wonderful Autistic identity.
Your co-host is Jennifer Alimba.
And I want to read a piece here about now.
Jennifer coaches other late identified Autistic and ADHD entrepreneurs to embody expansiveness
so they can thrive in business and in life.
And on her website, here's talk about ads, expansivemindsetcoaching.com.
(17:45):
Here it is again, folks, expansivemindsetcoaching.com.
Tell Jen that I'm going to send her a bill for that plug.
So talk to us.
Why don't you just open it up and say I listened to one show and I thought it was really fun
making friends as an Autistic and you guys were bantering back and forth about what it's
like.
So go on.
Yes, I called Jen my business bestie.
(18:07):
We are both Autistics and we talk all the time about what it means for us to be Autistic.
We both found out later in life.
So me and my 30s, her and her 40s about being Autistic.
And so we talk about, gosh, what it's like to find out that late in life.
And then we're at one point, we're like, we should just make a show of like these topics.
(18:30):
And so we did a full season, I think it was 10, 20 minute episodes on YouTube of us talking
about the key topics, which was a lot of fun.
But I got to say, like I realized like video, it's not my medium.
I am primarily a writer and artist.
(18:52):
Yeah.
We're getting out of your shell, lady.
Yeah.
Yes.
You're doing fine.
Yeah, I think you guys are open again.
I think it's meant for or what it does is allow people to experience other autistic folk
to just talk and to get it out and to hear and learn from more that, hey, someone else
(19:19):
is talking about so therefore it's okay for me to be Autistic or finding out that I am
Autistic.
I think so, a lot of times when I'm doing these shows, sometimes it's when I'm studying
the person or sometimes it's during the show and yours is when during the show here, I'm
really finding a thread that runs through you.
And I think a lot of it has to do through your art and things and what, well, what you
(19:43):
didn't grief as a mess is there's a thread I think that you want to help people and you're
honest and open and you're just presenting things, you're giving people an open window
into autism just as part of life for them.
Yeah.
I applaud what you're doing, dude.
Thank you.
(20:04):
But you just had something and you didn't and I didn't learn this about you.
You didn't find out until you were in your 30s.
So you got some degrees and so you didn't go to college to do this.
What'd you go to college for?
My undergraduate was in English in writing.
Huh?
Yeah.
(20:25):
I mean, I'm a writer, so that tracks, but that was my undergrad.
And then I did my math.
You're credentialed.
Then I went back to school when I decided I wanted to start class.
That's where these, no, no, no, that's where these come in your credentials.
All right, ATR-BC.
Oh, it was so fancy.
Yes, it is.
I had to look it up but translate, please.
(20:47):
It's a board certified art therapist.
It's one of my PC board certified, B-P-R art therapists.
Okay, got it.
And then what's the LPC?
I'm a licensed professional counselor, which just means I'm a mental health counselor.
Okay.
And when did you work on that?
(21:08):
I went back to school in 2016 to get my masters.
Was that after you were diagnosed before?
That was before.
That was before I found out about it.
So but you went into art therapy not knowing and then you came out of it.
Isn't life freaking weird?
You came out of it and it's perfect.
(21:31):
It seems to fit.
Odd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think I often, I used to set huge goals for myself.
And so the older I get, the more I'm like, wow, the universe gives me things far cooler
than my goals.
I think it did give you something here because it maybe it tugged you into doing this because
(21:55):
from everything I've read, this is a fit for you and I think you're a fit for it, which
leads us into your website.
I'm going to open up your website and I want to read the opening.
That's a great smile, by the way.
It says, hello, I'm Jackie.
I am an autistic art therapist.
I work with newly identified autistics and those who suspect that they might be autistic.
(22:20):
I help autistics who felt broken, who felt broken their entire lives, who experienced
lifetime of feeling too much and yet not enough.
We couldn't learn to trust them, who couldn't learn to trust themselves because they believe
something was wrong with them.
It's deep, but it's also light at the same time.
(22:41):
So here we go again with newly identified.
How do people find you and how do you hook up with them to go down a road together to
find out if they truly are and how the heck do you use art to do that?
Boy, that's broad, but go for it.
Nowadays, most of my clients find me through my writing.
I'm a writer on medium, I write at least one essay a day about autism because I love writing.
(23:07):
And really, like you said, I'm just writing about things as I learn them and as I have
conversations with my autistic clients and it's kind of like learning in progress.
So most people find me as a therapist through that writing and most people who come to me
suspect that they might be autistic or either like, hey, I'm autistic and could use some
(23:32):
help in learning how to work with my brain.
So you've got two routes.
You might have in someone that's the article that you wrote recently about people thinking
that they are.
Do you come across people that, no, damn it, I am autistic because I had this.
I know I am or is it more, could you help me to see if I truly am?
(23:54):
I think it's 50, 50, some are like, I'm not sure, could you help me and others are like,
no, I know I'm autistic.
Can we talk about like what this means for my life?
Do they bring you their doctor's note saying that they're autistic?
Can you just go with what they think?
Some are diagnosed and some are not and I just go with what they think and I've yet to encounter
(24:20):
someone that I'm like, yo, let's talk.
You are not autistic.
So you're upfront about that.
Yeah, I would be if I thought they weren't.
I would.
Yeah.
Okay.
Below that part on your front pages, I provide art therapy so autistic can listen, understand
their autistic identity, identify their unique autistic characteristics, learn to work with
(24:45):
their wonderfully autistic minds.
Very cool.
I definitely want you to get into that.
Take themselves from self judgment and shame, that's a biggie too.
Trust themselves.
Ooh, yeah.
Feel excited to wake up each morning and experience joyful, meaningful lives.
That's quite the list.
So I want you to really get into learn to work with their wonderfully autistic minds.
(25:08):
Yes.
I'm glad you asked this because most traditional therapy techniques need to be tailored to
autism, meaning as they are, are effective.
So for instance, one thing about autistics is we have what I call constellation thinking.
We have one thought that then triggers like a hundred thoughts and so our minds are just
(25:32):
so full.
And so if some therapist is like, I just need you to practice emptying your mind, letting
your thoughts go like, which is a very traditional therapy technique, that is not going to work
for us.
It's going to feel like even crazier.
And so no one's going to be lying on a sofa.
(25:53):
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
There are other ways to do that though.
For instance, I do an art therapy technique where like you're moving, making certain lines
on a paper in a complex way that it is so complex, your brain cannot think.
Okay.
So we have different ways to give our brain a break, but we have to kind of be doing other
(26:14):
things in order for that to happen.
Okay.
So again, it seems pretty simple.
All right.
Back to your website.
You've got a services tab and you've got five autism, business owners, grief, overwhelming
emotions and thoughts, religious deconstruction.
(26:39):
I want to touch on that one.
I want to see how politics, but religious deconstruction.
What is that?
So I did my thesis in my master's program on people going through religious deconstruction.
I designed a whole art therapy curriculum based on that.
Yeah.
Other people.
Art and religion.
Well, basically for people who grew up in religion and found the beliefs to be harmful
(27:04):
to them.
And I'm not saying this is religious teachings that are harmful.
It's often like the way our culture interprets religion.
Like you must be good.
You cannot sin.
Things like that that aren't helpless soul.
And so I help a person, well not I, but the art therapy and us working together helps them
(27:26):
to kind of heal through that as well as when you're deciding you no longer want to be with
a religion, you're kind of left with like, Oh my God, what are my values?
What are my beliefs?
What are the behaviors I should have?
It's really forming a whole new identity.
And so we looked at how to do that, which is ironic in that it's kind of the same work
I do in autism now.
(27:49):
Interesting.
So again, he's saying that you didn't intend for this part of the package, but you're able
to sit back and look at, you know what, that actually there's a relationship.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm going to start.
Yeah, you mentioned something about life.
I mean, it's just, it's just out there about how you can stumble into things.
(28:11):
Yes.
And you're reading over my website.
I was like, wow, I need to update this because now I solely work with autistic clients.
Like I, I mean, I have clients that have experienced things like grief and religious deconstruction,
but now I don't have people coming to me for those other topics.
They come to me for autism.
(28:32):
Okay.
Now on one of the pages, I love this.
Check is is cool.
You have, what if someone sucks at art?
You're honest again.
Get into that.
Yes, because a lot of people are like, Oh, I could never do art therapy.
I can't even draw stick figures.
(28:53):
And I say, Oh my gosh, you are the perfect person for me then because art therapy is
not about the end product.
It's about the process of making.
Okay.
And most of the things we make quite frankly are ugly.
So like, I mean, we're doing like scribbles, we're splashing paint, we're making, you
know, just all sorts of weird things.
And it's not about the end product.
(29:16):
So is this a process oriented piece as in, is it about the process you find something
that, and it sounds like art would be something natural that triggers someone to be able to
finally release from their own thoughts or their own perceptions.
And then it just comes out and you're able to, then you guys sit and talk about it.
(29:41):
Is that what do you use?
Yeah, I mean, you do it with the art.
You guys talk about it or just it's event.
And that's all it is.
Yes, we definitely tend to talk about it, but it also depends on what art was being
done and what context.
Like it's such a wide range and I really try to tailor what we do to the person and what
I think will help them the most.
(30:03):
Because sometimes I'm like, oh, this person needs a little more insight on this issue
and the art can help that.
Other times they don't need insight.
Sometimes they just need to get these angry thoughts and emotions out and release them
and that, you know, a different thing.
Release the hounds.
Yeah.
All right.
Cool.
I want to wrap up us talking again on this.
(30:24):
You are an interesting person.
Tell us about what the fun letter is.
Oh, my fun letter.
Yes, I noticed that.
Okay.
Yeah.
So everyone's always like, you should have an email newsletter.
And I always felt like that was a lot of pressure and a bit like, I don't want to just talk
about myself.
And then I don't know, one day it just dawned on me like, I have a fun letter like say
(30:49):
all the things that are fun.
So it's, I'm basically just saying like, here's the weird things I'm doing in my life right
now.
Kind of reclaiming what fun is because for autistics, we've often been told like, like
for instance, I love writing and that's so fun to me.
And someone else might be like, Oh, Jackie, you're such a nerd or you should get out more.
But it's like, no, this is what brings me joy and I'm doing it.
(31:13):
And so that's what I'm doing in my fun letter as well as that's where I update people.
If like I have an opening for a new client or if I have a new offering, something like
that, I put it in the news.
So people can go on your website.
And again, the website is going to be a link is going to be on the lives of roachopup
site.
So people can go on there and sign up to for the fun letter, correct?
Yes.
(31:34):
And it's actually my only way now that new clients can find out if I have openings because my
waitlist is at least two months at this point.
So when I have a new opening, I just put it in my newsletter.
So when we first got on and this is before we hit record, you were telling me about a
lot of this is now online.
So people in, I don't know, Seattle, Washington can reach out to you and do some of this and
(32:01):
do it online, correct?
It's not just people sitting in front of you.
Yeah, actually I've had the one from Seattle.
So I also, one of my other licenses is I have an international expressive art therapy registration.
Like yes, I know you needed a new one.
You were deep.
This allows me to work with people across the world.
So like I have some clients in Australia.
I have had them in other places.
(32:23):
And so yes, we meet for 45 minutes online in our sessions.
Because we have listeners from all over the place.
I mean, it just weirds me out.
Yeah.
I mean, after we hit 20,000 over the weekend, I really went in and started digging in about
where we're getting the listeners from.
It just blows me away that people all over the place are starting to pick this up because
(32:47):
we're touching on something that nobody else doing.
So talking and going back to what you said with the fun letter, this gives me joy.
I want to slide into and wrap up the show with the Road Trip Roundup.
Now, Jackie, there's five questions I'm going to throw at you.
You just kick back and maybe it's going to make you just think or not think.
So question number one, when road tripping, do you tend to do fast food or local diners?
(33:12):
That's road tripping.
You're just popping in for an hour.
Okay.
I'm so sorry, but I'm going to go in the middle.
I do grocery stores.
You are weird.
Yeah.
Well, but also I as an autistic, I have a very limited diet of things I prefer.
Oh, okay.
And so it's easier to like be like, I'm going to get some grapes.
(33:34):
So I'm going to get this.
Oh, so you just do pickups like, you know what?
You've got you might have something there.
It says, okay, I got it.
You're not weird anymore.
Maybe you're starting to get trend.
That makes sense.
Really?
I mean, I do eat out, but I have a very sensitive digestive system.
(33:55):
So I try to just eat simple things as I do.
What's your dream car for a road trip?
It could be something you grew up with, something you have or something.
Maybe you'd want to rent in order to go on a road trip.
It's like going to be doing a coast trip.
Oh, yeah.
This is so funny.
This is on my mind because I'm going to be driving across the East Coast as I move with
my dog.
(34:16):
What do we want?
I think it would be fun to take a, what are those things?
An RV.
I don't want to drive it though.
I don't want to drive.
I want to be a passenger.
But the dog drive.
Yeah.
Okay.
Cool.
The second guest has said that.
Yeah.
It does give you see, I take some ideas from this and I talk to my wife Sue about, you
(34:40):
know, it's getting us, we're actually leaving on Sunday.
We're heading out with her sister and brother-in-law.
We're doing music in Tennessee.
We're going to Nashville and then Memphis.
And I'll bring up some ideas.
I definitely think that we're not going to be doing fast food.
We're going to be doing like more like local things.
Maybe we'll stop at a grocery store.
(35:02):
Here we go.
Now I'm getting tricky.
You're on the younger side, but I think this still applies.
That's the last cassette or CD that played while you're on a road trip.
Don't say serious XM.
There had to be something that you've popped in.
I'm sure it was a mixed tape CD back when I, I would burn, like my friends would burn
(35:24):
me music.
Okay.
And so that's, yeah, I know that's not like a specific group or something.
No, it's not.
It's what you did.
Yeah.
We used to burn CDs a lot.
Yeah.
Cool.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, we used to do that back in my day.
They were on cassettes.
But all right.
Next, number four, coca pepsi.
I don't drink soda.
(35:47):
The carbonation hurts my stomach.
Oh, okay.
So when you're in the grocery store, what are you picking up to, to drink?
Oh my gosh.
I love orange juice right now.
Oh, so it's kind of like what my mood is, but I love juice and water.
Okay.
Cool.
Last one.
I love this question.
What's your favorite road trip memory?
(36:08):
First, I laugh because I went across the country with my grandparents and my cousin,
and we got in such a huge fight.
My cousin and I, that we were young to be fair, like seven, eight, and I chucked my hairbrush
at her.
Oh, yeah.
And we laugh about that all the time now.
Like it was, it was both a fun and an awful road trip, but it is like the best, it has
(36:33):
the best stories for just like how awful we were to each other.
So yeah.
Those are some of the family.
We've got a long now for the record.
Okay.
I wonder if one of you would show the other one a hairbrush and then just look at it.
I know we do actually.
We do.
Hey, Martin.
Oh, God.
Okay.
Hey, we're, we're done with the show.
This has been great.
I want you to stick on after we say bye bye to everybody, but I'll just say challenge.
(36:57):
I'll ask everybody and keep listening.
Thanks for listening.
Check out previous episodes with new ones dropping each Tuesday.
If you don't see a synopsis of this show where you're listening, visit our website at
lifesarodetrip.podbean.com for more information on this week's guest.
(37:21):
This is your host Scott Martin reminding you that lifesarode trip.
Being disabled or having a chronic illness can feel like you're moving forward in reverse.
(00:21):
I'm your host Scott Martin.
Join me and my new friends in this underrepresented community as we talk about disrupting the
status quo and creating change within the world and within ourselves.
A life's a road trip.
Hop in.
Let's turn on some tunes and go.
(00:56):
With me in the past, managing the radio is Jackie Schuld.
I'm taking my intro from the About Me page on your website, which says it best.
It reads, Hello, I'm Jackie.
I'm overflowing with joy in awe that I am an art therapist and counselor.
I love what I do.
It blends my insatiable interest in psychology, my love for art and my desire to help people
(01:17):
live more intentional, meaningful lives.
I appreciate that every day I get to have deep conversations with others about topics
that significantly impact their well-being.
I love working together to explore the answers to the complex questions like, why do I feel
so much?
If I know better, why can't I manage to do better?
(01:39):
How do I stop worrying so much?
And my life seems good.
Why can't I manage to be happy?
I've intentionally worked to face and explore my own questions.
I know change is possible because I've walked the journey and I see it around me daily.
I feel honored to bring the hope to others that at times felt so very out of reach for
(02:00):
me.
Hi, Jackie.
Hello.
You told me that you're on the East Coast for this week or so.
What are you doing out there?
I am in the process of moving.
So I'm here to just get something situated.
Okay.
And how's that going for you?
It's fun.
How unboxed are you?
(02:21):
Oh, not at all.
I haven't even packed.
So I'm not.
That's the norm.
This is the problem there.
Yeah.
Okay.
And it's going to take you months.
Oh, yeah.
That's what happens.
Okay.
All right.
Well, you know, welcome to the East Coast out there.
I must tell you that I love your art.
That's one of the first things I started digging into on you to see how what sort of products
(02:43):
you were able to put out.
And actually, folks that on the Life's of Road Trip website is the image that I like
my favorite of Jackie's pieces.
So take a look at that.
Now you were moving from Tucson and I wanted to ask you, do you get a lot of your inspiration
for a lot of your art, especially the colors from your surroundings when you were in Tucson?
(03:07):
No, because I'm an abstract artist primarily and it's coming from my feelings most of the
time.
Well, your feelings have great colors.
Because that's what attracted me.
It's very interesting.
And we're going to get into a book that you've illustrated and written a little bit later
(03:28):
in the show.
And I think folks should go on there and give you a taste of what you do because I really
like it personally.
Now I want to first open with getting into an article that you wrote.
It's titled I experience that too.
Does that mean I'm autistic?
That appeared on medium.com.
I'm going to link for that, folks, is on the Life's A Road Trip website.
(03:51):
So you can get in there and read it.
And it opens with whenever I explain a specific characteristic about autism, someone inevitably
mentions, but I have that experience too.
Does that mean I'm autistic?
Here's what I tell them.
Go on.
What do you say?
Okay.
First of all, I want to say I'm impressed that you were so up on my reading.
That was released.
I think it's last week.
(04:12):
Oh, yeah.
Dude.
I'm on there.
That's impressive.
Yes, I wrote that because really almost every essay I write, I have someone commenting.
Yeah, but I have that too.
Does that mean I'm autistic?
And so I wanted to clarify about that because autism is a range of characteristics.
(04:37):
And so it's likely that some human will, almost every human will inevitably have one of those
characteristics.
What is different is that they will not have all of them that autistics have as well as
the intensity of the characteristic or the frequency with it with which it occurs.
So this is autism has a spectrum, I believe.
(05:00):
And but there are various ranges within that spectrum.
Yeah.
How do you know that you're autistic?
How are you how are you labeled that?
Well, that's two questions actually.
Well, because there's one one question you're asking is essentially like, how do I get diagnosed?
(05:21):
And then there's another question of like, how do you know you're autistic, which is
a very fitting question right now, because many people are choosing to not pursue diagnosis.
And that's because the current diagnosis model for autism is primarily based on the
diagnostics and to statistics manual, which for anyone who doesn't know, that's basically
(05:45):
just what lays out all the different mental health disorders.
And for autism, it's based on the external behaviors.
And they came up with those by primarily observing young white cis boys.
And so what they're finding is this doesn't actually reflect the experience of other genders,
(06:07):
of other races, of other classes of people, as well as it doesn't reflect the interior
experience of autism.
Okay.
So fast forward to your like, okay, what is autism?
So I conceptualize autism very differently than the DSM five.
What I am looking at is how a person perceives the world, like how their sensory system is
(06:31):
taking in information, as well as how their brain feels and thinks, because an autistic
person has far more neural connections that are constantly firing.
And it causes other parallel pathways to fire at the same time, meaning your brain is just
like, okay, okay, okay, okay, all the time, okay, which which then causes characteristics
(06:58):
in like six primary categories.
So when I'm working with someone, we're looking at those six categories.
Right.
Now you mentioned, correct me if I'm wrong, earlier that people tend not to want to be
identified, they avoid.
Well, they, some people are choosing to self identify like to say I am autistic, instead
(07:19):
of pursuing a formal diagnosis, because many times it's difficult to find a practitioner
who has gone on with continuing education to really understand autism from a neuro diverse
lens, which neuro diverse just means this perspective that it presents differently for
different genders and different people, and that it's not a disorder.
(07:43):
Like we're here saying we as autistics and for anyone who doesn't know, I am autistic,
we are saying this is not a disorder.
This is a different neuro type and it's okay to be that it's not something we need to fix.
Got it.
Now a few weeks ago, I did a show with Becca Lori Hector, and she is autistic as well.
(08:05):
And we discussed autism and she was mentioning insurance issues and how it tends to be set
up people of later stages.
And I'm going to, we're going to be a good segue into what we're now going to get into.
How insurance, you need to be able to be identified as being autistic early on in order to gain
(08:27):
the benefits of insurance, because otherwise what Becca was saying is they tend to avoid
wanting to pay for bills, because they would go back and say, well, you weren't identified
early on.
So that seems to be a struggle that autistics are having as well.
So let's get into the segue then, because you also wrote another article.
(08:49):
When I learned I was autistic, it all made sense.
And linked to this is going to be on the Life's Road Trip website.
In it, you interview Priscilla Stuckey and about late identified autism.
In an earlier episode of, oh, I already went over Becca, but I want to get into what you
(09:10):
asked her the question, how do you feel when you learned you were autistic?
And she responded, relieved, exclamation.
It was totally unexpected, a lot of relief.
I have a lifelong habit of observing and seeking to understand my own internal rhythms.
And over the years, I made a sense, a lot of sense about them.
(09:32):
But there were a few things I kept tripping over, like being a head banger as a child,
what was with that she wrote.
I get so overwhelmed from time to time, and she says, what's that all about?
Where I find other people reacting to me in ways that seem kind of well odd.
When I learned I was autistic, it all made sense every last piece.
(09:53):
I felt so relieved.
And after the relief, I felt gratitude.
So would you please get into the late stage, someone finding out when she was 64, what
that's like.
Yes.
And this is becoming more and more common.
There are people of that age who find out they're autistic, they're referred to as the
(10:16):
lost generation, because we simply didn't know enough about autism for them to be identified
when they were younger.
And so typically, their whole life, they go feeling like there's something different
about me, but I don't know what it is.
And just sensing that they're off, that they're weird.
And so it becomes a huge relief to know, oh, it's just that my brain function.
(10:41):
It's different than most people.
I'm not broken.
And I just have a different operating system.
And you seem to now second time to me as a person that's not labeled as autistic.
And I'm not going to say, oh, why?
That happens to me.
Maybe I am.
Now I'm not going to do that.
But it seems that you're really into simplifying it and trying to get away from the taboos of
(11:06):
autism.
So therefore, you must be a certain way.
But again, what I'm getting from you and learning some of this now is that it is how
you described it before.
It's just how the brain functions differently.
That's all it is.
And people need to understand that and stop the stupid labels.
Um, stupid labels as in people from my perspective, and I substitute teaching.
(11:34):
I used to teach and I was around students all the time that if someone, well, students
like the label and I know that society likes to label as well, and it seemed that the labels
tend to be someone who's autistic.
So therefore they're definitely off.
And it's not an understanding of it's just the mind working as you phrased it earlier,
(11:59):
just kind of going haywire.
There's not that understanding.
Yes.
I see what you're saying now.
I just wanted to be clear because some people also ask me like, well, why do you even need
the label autistic if you're just self-identifying?
And I feel, you know, in this case, it unlocks a lot of information for you and understanding
(12:20):
about yourself.
But I know that wasn't your point.
No, I do get it though.
No, I think that that does branch off or is a bridge to what I was talking about because
it still comes down to education and there's a lacking education and people having an understanding
on how things are and hopefully things are getting better because that's where I'm trying
to take the show now.
(12:41):
Anyway, let's venture off and I'm going to open up your book.
And it's called Grief as a Mass.
And this is related, well, I'll just read it.
And the opening, it says, for my mom, I still cannot believe that I have to live the rest
of my life without you.
Thank you for loving me unconditionally, showing me how to laugh to mitts pain and encouraging
(13:04):
me to use my skills to help others.
I love you more.
Could you get into it?
I mean, obviously that's the inspiration your mother passed away.
What in swelp.
Let me see.
How can I phrase it?
I guess I'll just simplify.
From the backside of it, I read through what's available on Amazon.
(13:27):
And I think it's extremely helpful or would be extremely helpful for people.
It's not just autism.
It's how you presented things and you, again, simplified.
And that's what I'm finding you doing so far in the show and I appreciate Jackie.
So could you talk about that book, please?
Grief as a Mass.
Yes.
I wrote that the year after my mom died, that was nine years ago, which is crazy.
(13:53):
It's getting out there.
I was just so lost in sadness as well as everybody in my family responded to my mother's death
differently.
And there was a lot of pressure around like, well, why aren't you doing this?
Or why aren't you doing that?
And kind of everybody judging the other for how they were responding.
(14:17):
And so I made cartoons about it.
And so anyone who doesn't know my book, it's a book of illustrations about the book.
The range of grief from the different emotions we experienced to the different physical characteristics,
all those things.
And I just wanted to validate that range and to say like, look, none of us have the answers
(14:39):
of how to get through grief or just like breathing, trying to like, keep going.
And so maybe let's be a little nicer to ourselves than others in that.
And accept it.
Again, simplification.
And I'm going to one page, it says someone tried to tidy it up with five stages and it
looks like a cat, one denial, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance.
(15:04):
That I think says a lot.
And it's one of the earlier pages on setting people up for, oh, this is what's in the book.
And this helps them probably find comfort.
And I would assume that that was one of the rationale for what you were trying to do with
it.
But I think you do an outstanding job with a Jackie.
Thank you.
I think it shows off a lot of your talent again.
(15:27):
So it's that time in the show and we are starting to get noticed by folks and I've actually
found a couple of ads.
So we need to take a two second ad pause so someone can drop in and add here.
So here we go.
Okay, we're back.
Hopefully it was a decent ad and nothing so stupid.
(15:50):
Yeah, I actually was able to pick over what types of ads can be dropped.
And of course I stayed away from politics and anything like that because then I want some
politician getting on.
Anyway, can I ask a question about your ads?
Do you have people like individuals do ads too?
Like if they do like services for Autistics or something?
(16:11):
No, because what it is and I notice it today because my wife and I listened to Sirius XM
quite a bit.
And they just drop in ads or I should say Laura just drops in ads.
Okay, I'm listening to my Tom Petty radio station.
They'll just drop in a couple of ads.
It's all automated.
It's based on who's listening, where they're listening from and whether oh yeah, it's crazy.
(16:33):
Wow.
Yeah, no one else is doing it.
That's very sophisticated.
I'm learning a lot.
It's really cool.
And a couple of people, a couple of ads that have been dropped have been okay and please
I'm not because I can also cut them out.
If I hear an ad that I can pull it off.
Oh, that's nice.
Yeah, I have some control.
So yeah, folks, hopefully it's a McDonald's ad and you're hungry.
(16:55):
So let's shift gears and get into your podcast.
It's called Autistic Unscripted.
And I want to talk about making friends as an Autistic now.
I'll read a little opening from it.
It's an expansive new show, new talk show for two and I love this.
It's got a hashtag actually Autistic folks.
(17:19):
Join us as we explore the weird and wonderful Autistic identity.
Your co-host is Jennifer Alimba.
And I want to read a piece here about now.
Jennifer coaches other late identified Autistic and ADHD entrepreneurs to embody expansiveness
so they can thrive in business and in life.
And on her website, here's talk about ads, expansivemindsetcoaching.com.
(17:45):
Here it is again, folks, expansivemindsetcoaching.com.
Tell Jen that I'm going to send her a bill for that plug.
So talk to us.
Why don't you just open it up and say I listened to one show and I thought it was really fun
making friends as an Autistic and you guys were bantering back and forth about what it's
like.
So go on.
Yes, I called Jen my business bestie.
(18:07):
We are both Autistics and we talk all the time about what it means for us to be Autistic.
We both found out later in life.
So me and my 30s, her and her 40s about being Autistic.
And so we talk about, gosh, what it's like to find out that late in life.
And then we're at one point, we're like, we should just make a show of like these topics.
(18:30):
And so we did a full season, I think it was 10, 20 minute episodes on YouTube of us talking
about the key topics, which was a lot of fun.
But I got to say, like I realized like video, it's not my medium.
I am primarily a writer and artist.
(18:52):
Yeah.
We're getting out of your shell, lady.
Yeah.
Yes.
You're doing fine.
Yeah, I think you guys are open again.
I think it's meant for or what it does is allow people to experience other autistic folk
to just talk and to get it out and to hear and learn from more that, hey, someone else
(19:19):
is talking about so therefore it's okay for me to be Autistic or finding out that I am
Autistic.
I think so, a lot of times when I'm doing these shows, sometimes it's when I'm studying
the person or sometimes it's during the show and yours is when during the show here, I'm
really finding a thread that runs through you.
And I think a lot of it has to do through your art and things and what, well, what you
(19:43):
didn't grief as a mess is there's a thread I think that you want to help people and you're
honest and open and you're just presenting things, you're giving people an open window
into autism just as part of life for them.
Yeah.
I applaud what you're doing, dude.
Thank you.
(20:04):
But you just had something and you didn't and I didn't learn this about you.
You didn't find out until you were in your 30s.
So you got some degrees and so you didn't go to college to do this.
What'd you go to college for?
My undergraduate was in English in writing.
Huh?
Yeah.
(20:25):
I mean, I'm a writer, so that tracks, but that was my undergrad.
And then I did my math.
You're credentialed.
Then I went back to school when I decided I wanted to start class.
That's where these, no, no, no, that's where these come in your credentials.
All right, ATR-BC.
Oh, it was so fancy.
Yes, it is.
I had to look it up but translate, please.
(20:47):
It's a board certified art therapist.
It's one of my PC board certified, B-P-R art therapists.
Okay, got it.
And then what's the LPC?
I'm a licensed professional counselor, which just means I'm a mental health counselor.
Okay.
And when did you work on that?
(21:08):
I went back to school in 2016 to get my masters.
Was that after you were diagnosed before?
That was before.
That was before I found out about it.
So but you went into art therapy not knowing and then you came out of it.
Isn't life freaking weird?
You came out of it and it's perfect.
(21:31):
It seems to fit.
Odd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think I often, I used to set huge goals for myself.
And so the older I get, the more I'm like, wow, the universe gives me things far cooler
than my goals.
I think it did give you something here because it maybe it tugged you into doing this because
(21:55):
from everything I've read, this is a fit for you and I think you're a fit for it, which
leads us into your website.
I'm going to open up your website and I want to read the opening.
That's a great smile, by the way.
It says, hello, I'm Jackie.
I am an autistic art therapist.
I work with newly identified autistics and those who suspect that they might be autistic.
(22:20):
I help autistics who felt broken, who felt broken their entire lives, who experienced
lifetime of feeling too much and yet not enough.
We couldn't learn to trust them, who couldn't learn to trust themselves because they believe
something was wrong with them.
It's deep, but it's also light at the same time.
(22:41):
So here we go again with newly identified.
How do people find you and how do you hook up with them to go down a road together to
find out if they truly are and how the heck do you use art to do that?
Boy, that's broad, but go for it.
Nowadays, most of my clients find me through my writing.
I'm a writer on medium, I write at least one essay a day about autism because I love writing.
(23:07):
And really, like you said, I'm just writing about things as I learn them and as I have
conversations with my autistic clients and it's kind of like learning in progress.
So most people find me as a therapist through that writing and most people who come to me
suspect that they might be autistic or either like, hey, I'm autistic and could use some
(23:32):
help in learning how to work with my brain.
So you've got two routes.
You might have in someone that's the article that you wrote recently about people thinking
that they are.
Do you come across people that, no, damn it, I am autistic because I had this.
I know I am or is it more, could you help me to see if I truly am?
(23:54):
I think it's 50, 50, some are like, I'm not sure, could you help me and others are like,
no, I know I'm autistic.
Can we talk about like what this means for my life?
Do they bring you their doctor's note saying that they're autistic?
Can you just go with what they think?
Some are diagnosed and some are not and I just go with what they think and I've yet to encounter
(24:20):
someone that I'm like, yo, let's talk.
You are not autistic.
So you're upfront about that.
Yeah, I would be if I thought they weren't.
I would.
Yeah.
Okay.
Below that part on your front pages, I provide art therapy so autistic can listen, understand
their autistic identity, identify their unique autistic characteristics, learn to work with
(24:45):
their wonderfully autistic minds.
Very cool.
I definitely want you to get into that.
Take themselves from self judgment and shame, that's a biggie too.
Trust themselves.
Ooh, yeah.
Feel excited to wake up each morning and experience joyful, meaningful lives.
That's quite the list.
So I want you to really get into learn to work with their wonderfully autistic minds.
(25:08):
Yes.
I'm glad you asked this because most traditional therapy techniques need to be tailored to
autism, meaning as they are, are effective.
So for instance, one thing about autistics is we have what I call constellation thinking.
We have one thought that then triggers like a hundred thoughts and so our minds are just
(25:32):
so full.
And so if some therapist is like, I just need you to practice emptying your mind, letting
your thoughts go like, which is a very traditional therapy technique, that is not going to work
for us.
It's going to feel like even crazier.
And so no one's going to be lying on a sofa.
(25:53):
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
There are other ways to do that though.
For instance, I do an art therapy technique where like you're moving, making certain lines
on a paper in a complex way that it is so complex, your brain cannot think.
Okay.
So we have different ways to give our brain a break, but we have to kind of be doing other
(26:14):
things in order for that to happen.
Okay.
So again, it seems pretty simple.
All right.
Back to your website.
You've got a services tab and you've got five autism, business owners, grief, overwhelming
emotions and thoughts, religious deconstruction.
(26:39):
I want to touch on that one.
I want to see how politics, but religious deconstruction.
What is that?
So I did my thesis in my master's program on people going through religious deconstruction.
I designed a whole art therapy curriculum based on that.
Yeah.
Other people.
Art and religion.
Well, basically for people who grew up in religion and found the beliefs to be harmful
(27:04):
to them.
And I'm not saying this is religious teachings that are harmful.
It's often like the way our culture interprets religion.
Like you must be good.
You cannot sin.
Things like that that aren't helpless soul.
And so I help a person, well not I, but the art therapy and us working together helps them
(27:26):
to kind of heal through that as well as when you're deciding you no longer want to be with
a religion, you're kind of left with like, Oh my God, what are my values?
What are my beliefs?
What are the behaviors I should have?
It's really forming a whole new identity.
And so we looked at how to do that, which is ironic in that it's kind of the same work
I do in autism now.
(27:49):
Interesting.
So again, he's saying that you didn't intend for this part of the package, but you're able
to sit back and look at, you know what, that actually there's a relationship.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm going to start.
Yeah, you mentioned something about life.
I mean, it's just, it's just out there about how you can stumble into things.
(28:11):
Yes.
And you're reading over my website.
I was like, wow, I need to update this because now I solely work with autistic clients.
Like I, I mean, I have clients that have experienced things like grief and religious deconstruction,
but now I don't have people coming to me for those other topics.
They come to me for autism.
(28:32):
Okay.
Now on one of the pages, I love this.
Check is is cool.
You have, what if someone sucks at art?
You're honest again.
Get into that.
Yes, because a lot of people are like, Oh, I could never do art therapy.
I can't even draw stick figures.
(28:53):
And I say, Oh my gosh, you are the perfect person for me then because art therapy is
not about the end product.
It's about the process of making.
Okay.
And most of the things we make quite frankly are ugly.
So like, I mean, we're doing like scribbles, we're splashing paint, we're making, you
know, just all sorts of weird things.
And it's not about the end product.
(29:16):
So is this a process oriented piece as in, is it about the process you find something
that, and it sounds like art would be something natural that triggers someone to be able to
finally release from their own thoughts or their own perceptions.
And then it just comes out and you're able to, then you guys sit and talk about it.
(29:41):
Is that what do you use?
Yeah, I mean, you do it with the art.
You guys talk about it or just it's event.
And that's all it is.
Yes, we definitely tend to talk about it, but it also depends on what art was being
done and what context.
Like it's such a wide range and I really try to tailor what we do to the person and what
I think will help them the most.
(30:03):
Because sometimes I'm like, oh, this person needs a little more insight on this issue
and the art can help that.
Other times they don't need insight.
Sometimes they just need to get these angry thoughts and emotions out and release them
and that, you know, a different thing.
Release the hounds.
Yeah.
All right.
Cool.
I want to wrap up us talking again on this.
(30:24):
You are an interesting person.
Tell us about what the fun letter is.
Oh, my fun letter.
Yes, I noticed that.
Okay.
Yeah.
So everyone's always like, you should have an email newsletter.
And I always felt like that was a lot of pressure and a bit like, I don't want to just talk
about myself.
And then I don't know, one day it just dawned on me like, I have a fun letter like say
(30:49):
all the things that are fun.
So it's, I'm basically just saying like, here's the weird things I'm doing in my life right
now.
Kind of reclaiming what fun is because for autistics, we've often been told like, like
for instance, I love writing and that's so fun to me.
And someone else might be like, Oh, Jackie, you're such a nerd or you should get out more.
But it's like, no, this is what brings me joy and I'm doing it.
(31:13):
And so that's what I'm doing in my fun letter as well as that's where I update people.
If like I have an opening for a new client or if I have a new offering, something like
that, I put it in the news.
So people can go on your website.
And again, the website is going to be a link is going to be on the lives of roachopup
site.
So people can go on there and sign up to for the fun letter, correct?
Yes.
(31:34):
And it's actually my only way now that new clients can find out if I have openings because my
waitlist is at least two months at this point.
So when I have a new opening, I just put it in my newsletter.
So when we first got on and this is before we hit record, you were telling me about a
lot of this is now online.
So people in, I don't know, Seattle, Washington can reach out to you and do some of this and
(32:01):
do it online, correct?
It's not just people sitting in front of you.
Yeah, actually I've had the one from Seattle.
So I also, one of my other licenses is I have an international expressive art therapy registration.
Like yes, I know you needed a new one.
You were deep.
This allows me to work with people across the world.
So like I have some clients in Australia.
I have had them in other places.
(32:23):
And so yes, we meet for 45 minutes online in our sessions.
Because we have listeners from all over the place.
I mean, it just weirds me out.
Yeah.
I mean, after we hit 20,000 over the weekend, I really went in and started digging in about
where we're getting the listeners from.
It just blows me away that people all over the place are starting to pick this up because
(32:47):
we're touching on something that nobody else doing.
So talking and going back to what you said with the fun letter, this gives me joy.
I want to slide into and wrap up the show with the Road Trip Roundup.
Now, Jackie, there's five questions I'm going to throw at you.
You just kick back and maybe it's going to make you just think or not think.
So question number one, when road tripping, do you tend to do fast food or local diners?
(33:12):
That's road tripping.
You're just popping in for an hour.
Okay.
I'm so sorry, but I'm going to go in the middle.
I do grocery stores.
You are weird.
Yeah.
Well, but also I as an autistic, I have a very limited diet of things I prefer.
Oh, okay.
And so it's easier to like be like, I'm going to get some grapes.
(33:34):
So I'm going to get this.
Oh, so you just do pickups like, you know what?
You've got you might have something there.
It says, okay, I got it.
You're not weird anymore.
Maybe you're starting to get trend.
That makes sense.
Really?
I mean, I do eat out, but I have a very sensitive digestive system.
(33:55):
So I try to just eat simple things as I do.
What's your dream car for a road trip?
It could be something you grew up with, something you have or something.
Maybe you'd want to rent in order to go on a road trip.
It's like going to be doing a coast trip.
Oh, yeah.
This is so funny.
This is on my mind because I'm going to be driving across the East Coast as I move with
my dog.
(34:16):
What do we want?
I think it would be fun to take a, what are those things?
An RV.
I don't want to drive it though.
I don't want to drive.
I want to be a passenger.
But the dog drive.
Yeah.
Okay.
Cool.
The second guest has said that.
Yeah.
It does give you see, I take some ideas from this and I talk to my wife Sue about, you
(34:40):
know, it's getting us, we're actually leaving on Sunday.
We're heading out with her sister and brother-in-law.
We're doing music in Tennessee.
We're going to Nashville and then Memphis.
And I'll bring up some ideas.
I definitely think that we're not going to be doing fast food.
We're going to be doing like more like local things.
Maybe we'll stop at a grocery store.
(35:02):
Here we go.
Now I'm getting tricky.
You're on the younger side, but I think this still applies.
That's the last cassette or CD that played while you're on a road trip.
Don't say serious XM.
There had to be something that you've popped in.
I'm sure it was a mixed tape CD back when I, I would burn, like my friends would burn
(35:24):
me music.
Okay.
And so that's, yeah, I know that's not like a specific group or something.
No, it's not.
It's what you did.
Yeah.
We used to burn CDs a lot.
Yeah.
Cool.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, we used to do that back in my day.
They were on cassettes.
But all right.
Next, number four, coca pepsi.
I don't drink soda.
(35:47):
The carbonation hurts my stomach.
Oh, okay.
So when you're in the grocery store, what are you picking up to, to drink?
Oh my gosh.
I love orange juice right now.
Oh, so it's kind of like what my mood is, but I love juice and water.
Okay.
Cool.
Last one.
I love this question.
What's your favorite road trip memory?
(36:08):
First, I laugh because I went across the country with my grandparents and my cousin,
and we got in such a huge fight.
My cousin and I, that we were young to be fair, like seven, eight, and I chucked my hairbrush
at her.
Oh, yeah.
And we laugh about that all the time now.
Like it was, it was both a fun and an awful road trip, but it is like the best, it has
(36:33):
the best stories for just like how awful we were to each other.
So yeah.
Those are some of the family.
We've got a long now for the record.
Okay.
I wonder if one of you would show the other one a hairbrush and then just look at it.
I know we do actually.
We do.
Hey, Martin.
Oh, God.
Okay.
Hey, we're, we're done with the show.
This has been great.
I want you to stick on after we say bye bye to everybody, but I'll just say challenge.
(36:57):
I'll ask everybody and keep listening.
Thanks for listening.
Check out previous episodes with new ones dropping each Tuesday.
If you don't see a synopsis of this show where you're listening, visit our website at
lifesarodetrip.podbean.com for more information on this week's guest.
(37:21):
This is your host Scott Martin reminding you that lifesarode trip.
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