Holding Space for Unpopular Opinions in Facilitated Discussions ft Janice Boafo

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Now I'm overwhelmed withemotion or I'm mad as hell

(00:03):
or that unpopular opinion was
different than what I wasgoing to propose as an expert.
How about that?
That's unpopular.
No, no, no, that's, that'snot what I was going to say.
So that's superunpopular to me, right?
So many things youhave me thinking about.
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talkingabout the art of holding
space for unpopularopinions in group settings.

(00:25):
I am your host, Charmaine Utz.
I'm a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areopenly unpacking real life
scenarios and issues thatcome up in our workplace
interactions with each other.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,

(00:45):
equity, and inclusion.
As always the thoughts, views,opinions, everything that
is shared in this discussiontoday, they are my own and
not as a representative ofany of the agencies that I
work for or I'm contracted by.

(01:13):
Today I have JaniceBoafo in this space.
I have been waiting to getyou here to talk about some
things and this is goingto be the first of many.
I already know it.
I have known youfor a few years.
We worked together at SanDiego State and I swear like
every time I was in a room withyou or we got to collaborate,

(01:33):
you just, oh my gosh, you'relike, you have a really cool,
earthly energy that's so real.
People really gravitate towardsyou and the way you teach is...
it's inviting to change.
It's inviting intoreally difficult things.
So when I was thinking aboutthe conversation today, when

(01:54):
thinking about what it's liketo hold space for unpopular
opinions, when people are ingroup settings, and how hard
that can be, I have seen notmany people have the skill
set to be able to be inthose spaces and help other
people stay in that space andunpack and explore and stuff.
I just know you and love you foreverything that you bring and

(02:16):
thank you for being here today.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It might be because Iwas born on Earth Day.
Just want to throw that
out
there.
Grounded Yeah, April22nd, Earth Day, the
Oh
earthly energy.
my gosh, that's awesome.
I love that.
Yes.
Would you mind sharinganything about who you are

(02:37):
or how you came to be, whatyou do, whatever you want.
Sure, who I am,how I came to be.
Like I said, born on Earth Day.
I try to think, I'ma lover of words.
It's interesting because Iwas looking back at something
a while ago, and when I wasa kid, I wrote in a journal
that when I grew up, Iwanted to be Whitney Houston.
I can't sing.
And I wanted to love people.

(02:59):
I don't know what thatjob was, but love people.
And I think that that forme has showed up in spaces
of doing human service work,of teaching, of training.
And so what I do currently interms of my day job, if you
will, I coach and train socialworkers, resource parents, AKA
foster parents, drug and alcoholcounselors, and I've worked for

(03:20):
a long time in social services.
I am super, super excitedabout holding space.
So something I'm developingand figuring out how to
put together is a companywhich I started because
I've got my little somethingcalled Evergreen Cypher.
And so Evergreen Cypher tome, in developing the name
and the concept, Evergreenis this possibility that

(03:44):
there's growth, there'spotential that we've always
got this spark of somethingand Cypher, being the hip hop
model, this circular idea ofwe are in a circle together.
We are in a community togetherand that we feed each other
and this energy flows.
And so together to me, what itmakes me think about related
to myself and what I do isfacilitating spaces and helping

(04:05):
folks to connect maybe withthemselves, maybe with each
other, but creating community.
And so I'm a licensedclinical social worker.
I'm a mom of four sons somehowbetween birth and adoption.
I only have sons.
I am, yeah, so much.
I think the gift that myparents gave me was struggle.

(04:27):
Having seen them strugglethrough different things,
mental health, substanceuse, immigration.
And so those things togethergave me, I think, the ability to
see multiple truths at once andto really be open to embracing
the messiness and staying init because of the love and
the commitment to justice.
So
Hmm.
That's little bit about me.

(04:48):
Oh my goodness.
There's several things you saidthat I hadn't heard even in
the way that you described it.
And I love it.
And even Evergreen Cypher.
I feel like youdescribed that before.
It, I don't think I heardit the way that you're
saying it right now.
That's amazing.
And you said something thatI think a lot of people would
be surprised to hear and it'sthe gift of the struggle.

(05:12):
Like the, that wasso interesting.
I understand it completely.
I just, I'm imagining peoplewondering, gift of the struggle?
It can be a gift.
It can be a struggle and a gift.
I just love yourframing for that.
Yeah, I think that alot of times we get
stuck in the struggle.
And we miss the gift.
To me, there's a missing of the

(05:33):
Mm.
Mm.
the learning, of the growth.
I have this immense spiritof gratitude, and it
doesn't minimize, hey,those times were so hard.
Like, not knowing whenyou were going to eat?
Don't recommend.
And...
community sharing things, havingcreativity sparked because
there's no other way except forto be creative or to tap into.

(05:54):
Oh, I can do this diggingdeep and I made it out.
And so now I can look atother folks in a way to see
them in a deeper way becauseI was that person and I
still am that person to meis the gifts of the struggle.
Or some of the gifts.
Yes.
If people can't alreadysee already, I'm like,
this is exactly whatI was talking about.
This is the kind of person thatcan really be in a situation

(06:18):
and all the things can happen.
That's amazing.
Absolutely amazing.
I think a good place for usto start is talking about
what we're even sayingwhen we say holding space.
I think it means something veryclear to us or maybe people
who know that terminology.
Just what are we talking aboutwhen we say like holding space

(06:39):
and where are these spacesthat we're talking about
and where do those exist?
That way people can comealong with us on our journey.
It does feel a little bitlike diversity, equity,
inclusion, justice, socialwork, human service,
jargon, and I think it'ssomething that we already do.

(06:59):
It's, to me, holding spacesis about witnessing folks.
I think it's also important thatspace holding for ourselves.
And that's something that Ifeel like you have helped to
facilitate in our conversationsoffline around reminding me to
turn the space holding or tocreate the space around myself.

(07:19):
So when I think of holdingspace, I really think of
witnessing, seeing, hearing,making room for cause we
don't necessarily have tobe in charge of the space,
maybe we're falling backto allow for some space, to
make room for connection.
To make room for observation,to make room for the

(07:42):
mystery of whatever emerges
in the space that is created.
Which can't always haveexperiences and learning and
growth when we're too full.
So, making some roomfor the mystery,
Even in that right there,the framing you're using,
I think about me and myresponsibility at times as

(08:04):
a facilitator to hold thespace and make the space.
And as you're describing it,I'm seeing this collective
responsibility, collectiveparticipation in making the
room for whatever it is.
When I think about holdingspace, it's very, very similar.
It's there's other thingsgoing on besides an

(08:28):
agenda or topical words.
There's a lot of people here.
There's a lot of perspectives.
There's meaning.
And can we expand what wecame into this thinking
would happen and what is.
What's all thisstuff going on here?
And what do we want todo with the stuff here?

(08:49):
Yeah.
And I feel like there'sno spectators in it.
I think that's anothermisunderstanding is that
when we create space, whenwe hold space, when we're
facilitating, it's really noton the facilitator solely.
And what you were justtalking about right now made
me think about releasing anownership for the outcome
necessarily of the process.

(09:10):
A long time ago somewhere inmy substance use certification
process and training, oneof my instructors said to
be invested in the processand not the outcome.
To me when I think about holdingspace is this deep investment
in the relational process andan acknowledgement that it
doesn't have to be- Or it can'tbe just the facilitator's role.

(09:33):
So when I say there's nospectators, it makes me
think about how folks mayinitially start out on
the edge of the circle.
And by the nature ofbeing in the room, you're
part of the process.
Whether you're just silentlyobserving, whether you are
speaking out loud, whetheryou're contributing or
not contributing, you areessentially energetically

(09:54):
part of this process andthere are no spectators.
You have a role thatyou are playing out in
the creation of, and thedevelopment of the space.
Hmm.
Hmm.
I believe that that is somethingthat gets missed a lot.
And I'm just really thinkingabout myself as a facilitator
and how hard I try to work toget groups to see it's not my

(10:19):
space that I am facilitating.
I'm doing my best tofacilitate a process where
you all see it's your space.
And I'm trying to help yousee how you want to use
your space.
And that can be difficultbecause what we're talking
about isn't how peopleare used to things going.

(10:40):
You bring someone in or someoneleads a project or a team or
whatever, or you pay someoneto come in and do something.
People are used toreceiving, like you tell
me what to do and we do it.
And the, what we'retalking about is not that.
Sometimes you'll pay aconsultant, they come in
and they do a training andthey present information.

(11:03):
That's a little different thancoming in and facilitating
something experiential,something process oriented,
just maybe helpingpeople have a discussion.
And in those situations,it's really on the
facilitator to say upfront.
It's not, I'm not here to telly'all how this is gonna go.

(11:25):
But as a facilitator, itfeels like there's so much, I
know, let me talk for myself.
There's so much pressure tohave it go a certain way and
give people the outcome that youknow they want and have everyone
go away feeling wonderful.
It's just not realistic for oneperson to be able to do that.
It isn't.

(11:45):
Yeah, and I feel if oneperson does drop in and
do that, where's thesustainability and what
Yeah.
the connection to, for thisgroup to continue whatever
their individual process is?
Whatever their work is.
So great, you came in, yougave a little something.
And what did folks come in with?
What shifted or changed orwas highlighted or underscored

(12:08):
in the facilitation process?
And then what are theytaking when you leave?
Because you're leavingand they're staying in
their process and in theirspace after you're gone.
Yes, you and I have beenin a couple of situations.
Even with thinking aboutclients or partners.
And people can get reallyused to having someone

(12:32):
come in, help people dosomething cool, and then
that expert or experts leave.
And the skill to do forself hasn't been developed.
So you and I have been insituations where we have had to
coach to see why the experienceis the way that it is in

(12:52):
order to build the skill to,to sustain after we are gone.
Sometimes that can go reallywell, and sometimes...
Not so much, because in mypersonal opinion, people
aren't used to experientialtypes of development.
People have become usedto- share the, I want to

(13:17):
learn the knowledge, andI want you to tell me the
skills I need to develop.
And I'll go do thatlater in practice when
I'm doing it at work.
It doesn't translate that way.
Yeah, it almost sounds likefolks are skipping a step.
They don't actually have,there may be times when folks,
or what I've seen, that folksdon't necessarily have a good

(13:40):
grasp of where they're at.
And what they're looking at,but want to jump to solutions.
Solutions for what?
What are you looking at?
Have you had space andtime to look at what
might be uncomfortable?
Or maybe you're not evenfamiliar with it yet.
As you were talking rightnow, it had me visualizing,

(14:00):
like an archeological dig.
Where they have theselittle tiny little, they
look like paintbrushes.
And they're slowly dustingoff something to see, oh,
this is what's emerging.
To me,
sometimes facilitating spaceand holding space is helping
folks get to the edge andgo, oh, I see a thing there.
Who's gonna pick upthe little brush?

(14:21):
'Cause y'all are gonnabe here for a while.
'Cause archeological digs,they're there for months.
They got their stakes.
They be careful.
Ha.
'cause they're figuringout the lay of the land.
There's so much that's covered.
Sometimes the facilitation,the holding of space, we
are not going to get thiswhole sphinx or tomb or this
whole pottery out today.
You guys will be herewith your little brushes,

(14:41):
doing a little dusting.
Let me know howthat's going, right?
And we may need to expandthe landscape, put the stakes
out a little further, tiesome ribbons over here.
To me, that's what itis, and sometimes...
what I've experiencedis that folks want,
well, what's in there?
I just want it out.
And when you, when I thinkabout an archaeological

(15:01):
dig, it's a discovery.
It's a process.
It's an unfolding.
And then you have tofigure out where to adjust.
Yeah,
Yeah
And if you rush it,you break stuff.
If you rush it, you lose things.
Sometimes we, folks, myself,are in such a process of wanting
to have the big discovery orto make the change that you

(15:24):
miss the wonder of the process
Oh, yeah.
And realizing that processwill get you, with time and
investment and all otherpieces, to this other space.
Yep.
Yes.
Okay.
I love this analogy.
I need to learn thedifference between an
analogy and a metaphor.
I don't know.
I don't know but I love wordsand this is what happens.

(15:46):
My parents told me that whenI was a baby I used to sleep
with a book and I think that tome the words are the stories,
the narratives, the connecting.
To me that's witnessingand holding space.
It comes alive for me and going,what does this compare to?
How do we visualize it?
How can we, hold itsolid and cement it?
I catch stories or sometimes,like you just did right now.

(16:08):
Again, holding space for eachother, you activate something
that was like, oh, while youwere talking, I literally
was like, yeah, it was movingthrough my head as you were
talking about this unfolding.
Yeah, and in what you'relifting up, first of all, pause.
Thank you for that.
It helped me release whatevermy attachment is to figure out
whatever right word is, becauseit's not about the right word.
It's the story you just told.

(16:29):
So thank you for that.
The picture though, whenyou were doing the brushing.
It was, it's perfect.
And I think about ourwork as people leading
other people doing it.
I liken it to.
There's a whole landscape.
So I help, I'm like,I'm right, I'm over here
in this little area.
Let's come to this area.

(16:50):
I'll help you seewhat this is like.
Because here is a great example.
And then y'all can, there'slots of other places to try
and do on your own, yourpoint about sustainability.
So that little area is one ofthe things that is difficult
to help people understand.
Consultants, experts, are onlygoing to be able to do so much.

(17:13):
They cannot be with here, withyou, unless you truly want that.
But that's not doingactual org change.
It's just paying someoneto do a bunch of stuff.
So if you really want...
someone who's going to teachyou, you'll likely go to an
area and see what it's like andpractice there and engage and
all of that other great stuff.
And as you were brushingaway and like, you know,

(17:35):
blowing, I was thinking
about, I was thinking about.
Okay, some people love that.
They get it.
They're there in the spaceand they're trying stuff out.
And oh, yeah this is whatit's like to hold space for
different perspectives andwe're doing all the work and it
feels good to see each other.
And then a layer in all ofthis is what happens when

(18:00):
inevitably people havedifferent perspectives?
People are gonna usuallyalways have different
perspectives, but there's somepeople that have unpopular
opinions or drasticallydifferent perspectives.
And what can be hard for manypeople, even facilitators, is
to hold the space for all of it.

(18:21):
Because we're saying we're goingto hold space for all of it.
And that means it's goingto be things that can
activate people, things thatpeople can disagree with.
As a facilitator, if we'reover here in this corner,
this is what it looks like.
There's a lot that we aregoing through and teaching so
that outside of this space,when people are working
together, and people havedifferent perspectives, and

(18:42):
someone has an unpopularopinion, ideally they can...
do that there without an expert.
But I'm thinking about if wecould just like really hone
in on that piece, that whenthe work starts to go another
direction or when people don'tlike it anymore, and they
want to just stop having theholding of space because it no
longer is something controlledwhere everyone agrees.

(19:05):
What does it look like?
Or what are we even talkingabout when we say people have
unpopular opinions and thatspace needs to be held too?
Yeah, it makes me thinkabout, and I was thinking
about this, whether thereare different rules of
engagement for facilitatorsversus for participants.

(19:26):
And I don't thinkthat there are.
I think that there is aparallel process that happens
in facilitation as in sort ofthe heart of things of needing
to, and I've shared this withyou before, needing to find
a way to hold the tension.
Oh, things arestarting to go awry.
Oh, something unpopular.

(19:47):
There's a reaction in the room.
Or this hits me in some kind ofspot and I'm having a reaction.
To me, it is thesame expectation for
participants in the room.
There is a lot of powerin just sitting with it.
I don't mean allowingthings to go.
But a lot of times what I havedone is I've had an assumption.

(20:09):
Someone will say, you knowhow they say, and I'm like,
oh yeah, I know what they say.
And I know the endof the sentence.
And I early on realize,what if I don't say it?
I go, what do they say?
Or I go, yeah, but remind me.
Or I just sit and listen and go,50 percent of the time someone
says something different.
So I thought I knew what theysaid and me taking up the space

(20:33):
that really was for this personto tell me what they know that
they say, opened up for themto tell me their point of view.
So I liken that to pausing,noticing, holding the tension.
For me, holding thetension is about- Ooh,
this is getting stressful.
This could go thisway or that way.

(20:54):
Do I need to get in it yet?
Do I even understandit to put myself in it?
And so slowing myself down.
Looking at it, seeing it,noticing what's in the room.
Also reminding myself, aswill happen in group dynamics,
that there might be aninterplay between two folks.

(21:16):
And do I need to comein and rescue and save
and fix and resolve?
Or am I now adding anotherlayer that didn't need to be
there because there's a processwhere I trust folks begin
something and then we figureout where to go from there.
So I don't know thatI gave you an answer.
It was a little bit long andwindy, but I think there's
a piece of slowing down,holding judgment, holding

(21:40):
assumptions, holding responses.
And I guess the next pieceof that for me is flipping
those into questions.
Questions to understand, notquestions because I'm super
just nosy and want to becurious and want to, or want
to try to win an argumentor flip the conversation.
Yeah.
Help me understand.
What is the value behind this?
What are you saying?
Because this is what I heard.

(22:01):
Hmm.
Yeah.
And I don't know thatthere's anything in
particular I'm looking for.
I'm not looking for anything.
So your answer is your answer.
And I am thinking about, you'vesaid this a few times already.
And I, you're actuallymaking my brain work really
hard to see it this way,even though I believe it.

(22:21):
Which is interesting.
It's I believe it,but my brain's just...
What I'm thinking is the wayyou're talking about it is you
continue to speak, not as theperson facilitating the space.
You're in the space as afacilitator, you're in the
space with everyone else thateverybody can do all these
things we're talking about.

(22:41):
The agreements or whateverthe group has said they
want to do together,frequently still fall on the
facilitator to facilitate.
And remind, like if groupagreements need to be reminded,
it's, it feels like thefacilitator needs to remind.
But what you're talking aboutthough is the point of a shared

(23:05):
space, the point of agreements,the point of practicing all
of this is for everybodyto engage in the process.
And like you said,there's no spectators.
We're not out, we're allin this process together.
And it's making me think aboutwhat I believe people talk
about and desire and the reasonfor the group agreements that
most people, if they're doingthis work, I think they know

(23:27):
what group agreements are.
The reason they're establishedis so people use them.
But when it's time to usethem, more often than not, the
group members don't use them.
They want the facilitatorto remind the group.
Yeah.
And I think that is a littlebit of the facilitator giving
up power, ceding power,acknowledging it, stepping

(23:50):
out into the, ah, likethis sense of unease that
participants may feel when thefacilitator walks into the room.
Oh, who's this facilitator?
How's this going to go?
Ah.
What if the facilitator allowedthemselves to be in the same
space of being vulnerable?
Embracing the intimacy ofbeing part of the group.

(24:11):
So when I think about, likeI talked to you earlier
about this cypher model,that there's no spectators.
Either folks are performingand in the center of the
cypher, the dance circle, thewhatever it is, and they're
spotlighted if you will.
They're the speakermaybe or they're engaging
and sharing an idea.
And then the other folks arethis protective circle that
is witnessing, observing,noticing, holding the line.

(24:35):
Really agreeing and committingto creating and holding
the space for the ideas toemerge and be challenged
and with all the stuff.
In order to do that, thefacilitator must be able to see
themselves as part of the group.
This is, these are my thoughts.
Yeah, that's

(24:55):
fair.
So they're not necessarilyagreements, because
agreements, yeah, I agree,you agree, we agree.
Words are super important.
They're commitments.
I am committed to you.
I'm committed to this process.
And I'm sure there'll be otherwords that evolve from here.
Part of my commitment isto acknowledging, noticing,

(25:16):
holding, honoring what we havesaid we will do here together.
So much so, that often timeswhen I've got a lot of elbow
room and freedom to facilitatecommitments, the commitments
start with, in the circle, we.
And that's everybody.
mm, mm.
In the circle, we.

(25:36):
So that we're setting,I am helping folks to
set an expectation thatthis is what we do.
This, we, this belongsto us, collectively.
So that this is how weoperate in our shared space.
And it may be for this moment.
My hope is that you takethese and your circle is
different because it'stransformed when I'm not here.
Take these with you.

(25:57):
And then when someone elsesteps into the space, how
do you all do things here?
How have you been doing themnow that i'm joining your
house, now that i'm joiningyour group, now that i'm joining
this moment, which will neveroccur again in this unique way,
Yeah.
may I offer a little something?
Because while I'm here asyour guest and possibly as
the facilitator and joiningyour group as a newer

(26:18):
member, I have some thoughtsthat I'd like to offer.
So I typically offer somethingto the commitments as well.
Here's something I wasthinking, or- Ooh, there's a
thing that I heard there thatreally resonates with me.
I'm up for that.
Yes.
This is, I agree witheverything you're saying.
I think, and sometimesI probably do that.
But again, it's rubbingup against this, probably

(26:41):
white supremacy culture typeof thinking, where a one
person's supposed to like,
experts, leads,
hmm.
holders of knowledge...
No, it's...
Yes, I, it's justso interesting.
And I'd be trying totell people, I'd be
as honest as I can.
Look, I train and teachpeople and I gotta
work on my stuff too.
So I have to have anawareness that this is a

(27:03):
thing that comes up in me.
What I do know, okay, let meactually finish that process.
I appreciate what you're saying.
Cause it is calling up for me.
This is a thing that youneed to still be aware of.
You do this, that's okay.
Just be aware and dosomething about it.

(27:23):
And then what I do believethe role of an expert is,
is to help people see their,where they're at, what they
need to develop to participatein this type of process.
Because while we're sayingwhat we're saying makes so
much sense, there's just, whatwe're talking about is just not

(27:47):
what people have experienced.
Not what they havelearned, and they've got
their own reasons why.
And it's like, what do you need?
What are you experiencingas this is happening?
And what do you need to developin yourself to participate in
this process that you all aresaying that you want to share?
So a lot of that first digof the process is like the

(28:08):
expert, I'm taking the brushand I'm showing you this.
I'm doing this first.
Okay.
Let's everybody look.
What's here?
What do you see?
How do you feel?
Anyone want to takethis brush and try?
Let's all take little brushes.
Just scoops up.
It's a little like containedsituation that you're trying
to build because thereis help that people need

(28:31):
to develop the skill set.
And then there's so much ofthe internal work that people
really need to be willingto do to change how they
show up in the behaviors andcontributions to shared spaces.
I'm just really appreciatingthe, this isn't something
solely on people who holdprivilege or power or seemingly

(28:53):
the facilitator in theprocess to do all of this.
And I love thelanguage of what are...
like, what are our agreements?
It's easy.
I facilitate spaces thatI'm already a part of.
I can say we, but Idon't use that word.
Even when I go into spacesthat I'm not necessarily
a part of long term.

(29:13):
what do y'all want to do?
And I just reallyliked the reframe.
Cause I'm there whileI'm there to say we.
And I think it could be both.
I think that they're whatyou're reminding me of as
you're talking is this idea ofone of my favorite things is
this concept of a continuum.
That there's this ongoing.
It's not really delineated byeither I'm giving you agreements

(29:36):
and you all are doing it, or weare doing this collective thing.
What I'm hearing in whatyou're saying is this reminder
about as facilitators asleaders as experts, if you
will in DEI spaces, right?
In these spaces, we are in acontinuous state of growth and
responsiveness to the communitythat we are working with.

(29:56):
And there's the possibilitythat we could notice and I heard
you say earlier noticing thisabout yourself and changing it.
I don't know that thereneeds to be change.
Noticing it about yourselfand then integrating this
awareness in the way thatyou work with folks, right?
So what I'm hearing is askingfolks about what they already

(30:20):
have because you are entering.
To me, it's ademonstration of respect.
And again, this is, there'scultural nuances to all of this.
If I show up at your house,I'm not going to tell you
how to do what you do.
Clearly you've beendoing something and you
have a way of operating.
I would love to knowhow it's been going.
I think for me and from possiblyother folks in different
facilitation leadershippositions, it's a great way

(30:40):
also to get the lay of the land.
And to maybe avoid some ofthese gotcha moments where
someone goes, boom, that'snot how we do it here.
It's been going like this.
Whoa, land mine.
Had I asked the question, maybeI'd have a little bit of an
idea of what are some areas thatwe want to tread lightly on?
Whether they directly saythem or they're implied in
the interaction with folks.
And then I can be curiousabout what's that quietness

(31:01):
or what's that pauseor what was that look?
So asking folks.
And then also acknowledgingthat it may be different.
And this is me just talkingthrough my process- it may
be different than how youall have usually done things.
Would you consider, would yoube open to this other piece
during the time that I'm here?

(31:21):
While I'm here, hereare some thoughts.
May I offer these to you all?
And then we can figureout where we go, in terms
of having a collective.
I think it's a lot ofmodeling and practicing.
I also think that ithelps to remind me that
it's unique to the group.
It's this continuum becausethose folks go, no, this

(31:42):
is just how we do it.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you for letting me know.
Let me see how I'mgoing to work with that.
Yeah.
Yes.
You know what?
Okay.
Okay.
So that I can get on board with.
Have you ever experiencedpeople thinking that they
have done a lot of work orknow how it's going to go.

(32:05):
So you ask the questions, right?
And then you get answers andyou try to explain what is it
you're talking about and howthis might be a little different
than what people are used to.
And then, like peopledon't know till they know.
Have you ever experiencedpeople thinking that they
know the stuff up front, youask the questions, here's the
answers, then you're in it.
And it's like, this has nothingto do with what this, the

(32:26):
stuff we were doing ain't gotnothing to do with what this is.
And it's helping people likeeither reimagine, adjust,
or create from scratchsomething based on this new
experience that they're having.
Because for me, my experiencehas been either people truly,
they don't know anything asit relates to creating these

(32:49):
types of very open spaceswhere anything can exist.
Or what they have doneis participated in more
surface level things.
So the things that theycreated don't translate to
this deeper experience thatignites self and others and
how to navigate it together.
So I'm like, just wonderingif that's been true for you.

(33:13):
Let me actually just ask that.
Have you seen that?
Cause that's what I'min more often than not.
Where folks are at a surfacelevel and they maybe have the
language of, or a costume of,or their role playing DEI.
It's
That's dug into the impactsin their system or like

(33:35):
the pieces that really hitthem in the values or...
I think if I were to sum it up.
It's people not knowingthat what they have, what
they've been learning ismore surface level and
hasn't prepared them for thedeeper experiential work.

(33:56):
Like truly not knowing.
Some know, but I think I've seenpeople not really understanding
until they truly experience it.
And then it's thisrealization of, Oh, this
is just way different thanwhat I've experienced or
what I even thought it was.
Yes, and I think to methat is the bridge to the

(34:18):
uncomfortable conversationsor did the discomfort.
Because when I originallythought about the focus of this
conversation today, my minddid what I think a lot of folks
minds might do is go to certaintopics which are uncomfortable.
And what I'm hearingyou highlight is it's
often not the topic.
It's when the flowof conversation

(34:39):
challenges something.
So it might be challengingthe status quo.
It might be challenging aperceived sense of competence.
It might be challenging, this isa professional space and those
emotions that are coming up arenot professional, if you will.
And so it challenges theconcept of how I can show

(35:02):
up in this space becausenow it feels intimate.
Now it feels like it's me stuff.
Which takes me all theway back to sort of the
modeling of the agreementsand all the other pieces.
Because there is this processof slowly building trust and
helping people to acclimateto types of conversation,

(35:23):
interaction, self reflection,and engagement with one another,
which might not be there if wego, these are the agreements.
We all agree?
Agree.
And then I am the expert.
I'm gonna tell you some stuff.
Then it stays in this faraway space of, you know the
stuff, so tell me the stuff.
And then when I hear the stuffand I can regurgitate to someone
else, I've mastered the stuff,whatever this magical stuff is.

(35:47):
yeah,
But in doing this work,we can't stay at that
cerebral level, because it'sgoing to hit us in a spot.
And I think that actuallyfor me ties back to, this
expertise as a facilitator, asa leader, and the continuum.
Because at some point in thecontinuum, we're going to be hit
in values, we're going to be hitin the feels, we're going to go,

(36:09):
they said a thing right there.
And then as a facilitator,have to ourselves, run through
our steps that we have beenteaching and modeling and
sharing with someone elsebecause now I'm overwhelmed
with emotion or I'm mad as hellor that unpopular opinion was
different than what I wasgoing to propose as an expert.

(36:31):
How about that?
That's unpopular.
No, no, no, that's, that'snot what I was going to say.
So that's superunpopular to me, right?
so many things youhave me thinking about.
I think that all the time.
I have to tell myself, all yourideas aren't the best ideas.
I know you be thinkingyou know stuff.
Plus, this is their journey,
And I, this week I waschallenged, I was in a

(36:51):
space and it was, alltrainers and social workers.
And we were talking about,they asked about, they had us
reflect back to as a childhood,different communities, different
identities, if you will.
What we had learned inchildhood about that.
And a little bit of a reflectionon how that played into our
understanding, our engagement,our connecting with these
particular identities in thepresent and what shaped that.

(37:12):
There was a gentleman in therewho had great thoughts and
insights, and then he saidhe was talking about working
with younger folks who don'tshare his advanced thought
process, and where he'smoved to because of his lived
experience, because of proximityto folks, and that particular
identity and community.
And then he said he made amention of, sort of to the

(37:34):
point of the two truths.
But his two truthswere the truth and
their misunderstanding.
It was like, these youngfolks, they just don't know.
So, I kind of let him holdonto the lie and then I helped
them to get to my truth.
And I was like- Oh, I forgetwhy I interrupted you with
this, but it made me thinkabout even some of the concepts

(37:57):
that facilitators, trainers,leaders offer the two truths.
What if there aremultiple truths?
And what if that lie,misinformation, unpopular
opinion, whatever it is,is really currently a
truth for that person inthis moment, given what

(38:18):
they've experienced and howthey've contextualized it?
Is there space to honor?
Wow.
Tell me a little bit moreabout how that's true for
you and how you got there.
Here's what I was thinking.
Not to win.
Not to flip.
Not to pour water on or diffusethe unpopularness of it.

(38:40):
But to go, Oh, let'slook at that thing there.
Hmm
yes, yes.
How that working for you?
And how does that work for us?
Yes,
Because that'sthe wonder, right?
That's the curiosity,that's the questions.
How does that workin this space?
Because unpopular opinion person
Yeah.
might be saying it's notworking so good for me because
I have to keep it to myself.

(39:00):
It's very isolating.
It's very diminishing.
Yeah.
It's very marginal.
I feel very marginalized.
Yeah.
I feel inauthentic.
Which goes back tothe relational piece.
Folks being engaged andauthentic and being able to
talk through difficult thingsis potentially the goal.
It might be the goal.

(39:20):
If we're back to whereyou're talking about in
terms of expertise, thenmaybe that's not the goal.
And then we're back to yourpoint about the surface-y.
I mastered that.
I know the facts on that.
I can give you the stats.
How is it working for you?
Yeah.
Yes.
You had said somethingearlier about- I'm saying
DEI as an umbrella topic tomean whatever it means for

(39:41):
the work and organizationsas they define it to mean.
And I believe and operateunder this necessary assumption
that DEI isn't topic specific.
If organizations are reallyintegrating DEI work, it's the
vehicle for culture change.
If you're attuned to youremployees, stakeholders,

(40:07):
whatever, and you areadjusting to meet the needs
and removing barriers andall that other good stuff.
It's not topic specific,it's people specific.
You're just using a lensthat has not historically
been prioritized.
Now, because it's not topicspecific, it will come up.
These conversations and theneed for space and the need
for these various perspectivesand multiple truths is

(40:28):
going to come up becauseit's not about a topic.
It's people with differentidentities and lives.
Like it's, we all are justgoing to have different
opinions and perspectives.
And to think it's topicspecific would mean that we are
completely going to do ourselvesa disservice and miss the...

(40:49):
In any of my interactionswith co workers, colleagues,
whatever, in any of theseinteractions, I'm going to
need to work with peoplewho are going to have
different perspectives.
I could say or do somethingthat's going to impact
someone and vice versa.
And the need to developthe capacity to be in those
spaces is really important.
And what you were talking aboutdoesn't have to be this or that.

(41:10):
Could it be all the things?
I think takes us backto the essence of what
holding space really is.
The space is, we interactwith and work with people
who think, feel, experiencelife differently from us.
And that's okay.
But if we decide as individualsthat whatever we think is

(41:34):
right and should be followedand whatever else, especially
if we hold power andprivilege to really move past
everybody, we really, we'regoing to miss so much stuff.
We're going to dismiss people.
We'll make decisionswithout hearing all the
things we need to hear.
And then there's the relationalcomponent, which is everybody's

(41:55):
here and we have people withlives and input they want to
share and experiences of thespace that they want to share.
I just, I keep thinkingabout the need to look beyond
something specific and to justsee it as we want to be creating
an ability to have the type ofwork culture that can hold space

(42:19):
for each other when we need to.
That would
be ideal.
I love it.
It makes me think about- Ijust absolutely appreciate
the way you've conceptualizedthis, like you said, this
umbrella of diverse thoughts.
It reminds me that when folksare seeing it as, like you

(42:42):
said, just particular topics,it's self limiting, right?
We're limiting what wecan do, and we're also
saying that let's center anormal, a typical, a top.
Answer, and then everythingelse is the diversity of
this particular topic area.
Which reinforces-not DEI thinking.

(43:02):
As you were talking, anothervisual came to mind for me.
And it made me think about,we've got a flow of water
through a pipe, right?
If we don't have theability to hear, make
space for differences,things, we get sediment.

(43:23):
We got something that builds upin this flow of ideas, flow of
information, flow of resources.
All the creativity is,can get backlogged, it
can get stymied, right?
If we don't have a place for itto be received on the other end.
Then your flow of water, youget this buildup in the pipe.
That's really what it is.

(43:43):
You get a buildup.
It's building up.
Unexpressed ideas,unshared values, unresolved
communication, unappreciate-folks being unappreciated.
You get a buildup andthen what do you get?
You either get acomplete backlog.
Or at some point, thecommunication has been very
clear that these pieces areunpopular, uncomfortable, they

(44:04):
stay here, just a little flowof water makes it past, which
is all the pieces that we haveacculturated and conditioned
the community to say, that's thestuff that's acceptable here.
That's the okay stuff.
But if you've got this much thatis creative and different and
new and challenging and needsto be processed, and this little

(44:25):
bit is getting through becausefolks go, let me sanitize this.
This is the stuff that isacceptable and that will
be received with applauseor that will be honored.
We missed out on a lot.
At some point, maybe yourpipes are going to burst too.
There's that whole thingwhere we have this,
Yeah.
we have some type ofsituation emerges where

(44:46):
maybe you lose staff.
Maybe you're no longergetting creativity.
Maybe there's just atension in the workroom,
maybe there's this, thissort of, what is it called?
Something harmony.
I'm trying to remember the word.
It's like false harmony.
I forget what it's called.
It's one of theseorganizational health terms,

(45:06):
That makes sense to me.
False harmony.
Yeah, we'll callit false harmony.
But it's reallythis nod and smile.
Because folks are justshowing up to tell you
What you want to hear.
It becomes one ofthose emperors-
emperor has no clothes.
No one's giving you feedback.
As a leader, even.
As a leader, no oneis giving me feedback.
Do I have something in my tooth?
Nope, nothing there.

(45:27):
How's the system working?
It's working great!
Yeah.
Because there's not space togo Yeah, I had a better idea.
I had a different idea.
What we're doing...
and that been doinghasn't been working.
And so I think that there arereal impacts to engaging in a
consideration of uncomfortableconversations, how we move
through diverse thoughts andideas and ways of engaging, ways

(45:50):
of doing work that can shake upsystems, but in a very powerful,
creative, productive way.
Which again challenges onthe diversity side of this
is productivity and diversitymight, that what, how
productivity is visualized couldbenefit from conceptualization

(46:13):
of diversity as well.
Yeah.
Yes.
I have a question, and I thinkmy original thought of the
question was a bit more narrow.
But now I'm actually thinking,if facilitators or experts
are joining in spaces withpeople, but I believe that
this question could be viewedby anyone as a resource.

(46:34):
And I'm thinking about what, assomeone who's been in the space,
having to teach people andto hold spaces yourself, what
is your experience doing it?
And my hope would be evenfor both of us to normalize
what it's like to do that.
Because what peopledo is look at people

(46:55):
facilitating the space.
I hear this all the time.
It looks so easy and theway they see it happening
appears a certain way.
And in my reflectionand even message back
to people is, it's not.
There's a whole lot goingon inside to do that.
It's not what youthink it looks like.

(47:17):
So I'm wondering if we havea window in the Janice,
what is your experiencefacilitating or being in
the holding space moments?
Yeah, it's a littlebit of a duck on water.
My pal Betsy Watson saidthat once and I was like,
what are you talking about?
I didn't even, whatdo I know about ducks?
Apparently when you seea duck or a swan, they're

(47:38):
like all beautiful.
The little skinny littlelegs are going like this
really hard underwater.
I think that there's that.
Maybe it's a social media thingor just having folks in spaces
of power and holding theirown space and putting on their
presentation, that the underlayers and the other inner

(47:58):
workings and little fast workingduck legs are not visible.
But I want to acknowledgethat there is a whole lot
of that happening in termsof prep and wondering and
considerations and havingthings in your back pocket.
So the layer of Janice, Iam a very contextual person.
I'd like to know a little bitabout what I'm stepping into.
That's my stuff.

(48:19):
Some folks can just show upand be like, all right, I want,
what's going on in the house?
Who's, what do you all do here?
I want to have a little bitof background information
and I don't always have it.
I think another piece toois in the same way that we
extend grace as they say inall these social work spaces
and DEI space, get a littlebit of grace to remember
to give it to ourselves.

(48:40):
So taking a deep breath,which you reminded me today,
take my breath, slow it down.
I think holistic, humanfocused approaches to the work
serve us, serve me very well.
Everyone else in the room withme, whether it be just myself
and one individual person thatI'm coaching or a large group

(49:02):
or a team, whether I'm knownto me or not known to me, is
having a human experience.
Very much reminding myselfthat I am not an expert.
That I will not get throughthis process without
engaging with the group.
And the group or the partneris super unpredictable.

(49:24):
So making some room for, I don'tknow what's going to happen.
And that is going to be okay,
Yeah.
Which kind of goes backto the commitments pieces.
We're owning this together.
This is our possiblymessy process.
So a lot of that is theinternal thought process.

(49:46):
Some of that for me issetting a tone of we're
going to work together.
I've got some ideas.
You've got some ideasand talking through
where do you want to go?
I think another piece too,for facilitators of processes
is to know what your gift is.
I know about myself.
My gift is to- When Iremind myself to just

(50:08):
calm down, be present.
I laugh at myself a lot, soI can see humor in things.
I know I tell windingstories and analogies or
metaphors or whatever wedecided that they are.
And I know that if I'mreally present in the
room, I can witness folks.
I can see folks.
So know what your gifts are.

(50:30):
That's super important.
Don't attempt to put onthe gifts of somebody else.
The things that are missingin your facilitation process
are not actually missing,you just don't hold them.
They are in the room.
Um, so, you and I talkedpreviously, I know we
talked about being okay withthings being unresolved.

(50:53):
I think the front end of thatis being okay as a facilitator
with incomplete things.
Because it won't be complete,because you don't hold it all.
The group has it, andit will develop itself
in the process.
So all of that to meis beginning headspace,
orienting oneself.

(51:15):
I would say as you're movingthrough the process in the
same way of attending tothe group, notice yourself,
attend to yourself.
I was in a space not thatlong ago and I just had to
look down, it was a zoomspace, and I just had to
look down from the camera.
Okay, because there was alot going on and it wasn't

(51:37):
for me to react to it, butit was hitting me some kind
of way, and so I was like,I'll give it to the group.
And that's okay.
Mhm.
I've had individualspaces before where
something hit me again.
Things are going to hit youand be prepared for that.
Hit me in the values.
And I took a breath and movedthrough and held on to some
other part and then closedout and said to the person,

(51:59):
Do you mind if we reconvene?
Because there's somethingthat happened there that I
really want to revisit andI don't think that I have
the capacity to do so now.
So I'm just sort of goingto process it, kick it
around, and I'd love to seeif we can get back together.
And the person was like, yeah,and then I actually tap danced
through, Oh, what am I goingto do, process it on my own.

(52:19):
Checked in with someone whocould support you without
revealing specifics, because Iwanted to honor that individual
about the general topic.
Made a plan to revisit it.
Again as a facilitatorof process,
it was still causing me, itwas still really close to
myself and my heart and whatwas, I don't know that I can
be the best model for this.
And then we finallyreconvened and I, oh this

(52:41):
is, because it was somethingthat was high in terms of
value and it, and I said Ihave been kind of avoiding
this and I wasn't exactlysure how to approach this.
But it's really important for meand the role of this individual
was to influence others witha view that in my opinion was
particularly biased and couldbe dangerous out in their field.

(53:02):
And I said there was athing that you said, I don't
know if you know and theperson said, Oh, yeah, I
know the thing that I said.
It was blah blah blah blah blah.
Oh great.
So again, releasing ourselffrom having to hold it because
a lot of times folks know.
And then being human, beingwhole, owning it and saying
this is this part right here andthen stopping myself and saying

(53:26):
what are your thoughts on it?
What was your intention?
How did it sound to you?
it impacted me some kind ofway and the person went on and
shared contextually their view.
I had questions.
I was curious.
How did they, because Ihad perceived how it might
impact them in the field,how did they foresee this?

(53:47):
Serving the folks thatthey intended to serve,
because this is the piecetoo, I think there's a lot
of heart and values piece.
yeah.
So all of that is, that'san individual example.
and I was just thinking backto the highlights of that,
knowing your stuff so thatyou know where you're going
to be impacted, what thevalues are you bring into it.

(54:08):
The holding space is about thegroup is holding the space,
not having to hold it all.
I think there's also the elementof breathing, pausing, and
then you offered the closingas being okay with things being
not perfectly tied up in a bowand a ribbon and being resolved.
I had a couple of notes I wasthinking to myself, Ellen,

(54:29):
the space in between is allthe wonder, the curiosity, the
asking questions, seeking tounderstand, because I think the
goal, Of the facilitation forme is to be able to do what one
of my colleagues, Monica, saida long time ago, was to speak
into other people's listening.
It doesn't even necessarilygrammatically make sense, but

(54:51):
to speak into others listening.
The way that I took that wasto really be able to hear
each other, to be able towitness each other, to not
agree, not change folks.
but to allow that blockagethat I talked about
earlier to not be there.
There's a flow.
I don't love it.

(55:12):
It might still be uncomfortable,but we're flowing and then we
can do something with that.
Yeah.
Yes.
I was thinking about, what myexperience is, and I believe,
my experience is likely whatyou are experiencing, which is
what gets you to this place thatyou're describing right now.

(55:34):
It's in these moments, thereis a lot happening internally
that would require you to know,this is the time I need to
look down and take a breath.
There's so many other thingsthat are going on that prompt
that thought and action in you.
And for me, when I'mexperiencing these spaces,

(55:55):
whether I'm a participantthat actively still holds a
space or facilitating that.
I have so many things whereI feel like I need to self
regulate a lot, a lot.
It could be my own randomirritation, just from a thing
that nobody knows about.
It could be a perspectivethat truly activates me and I

(56:17):
got to honor somebody else's.
There's so many things thatI personally get activated.
And it's knowing that otherpeople are activated or
might be activated and peoplewant to be seen or heard.
It's like thisintensified moment.

(56:39):
There can be intensifiedmoments where everybody's
got something going on.
And you want to be presentfor other people while you
have to regulate yourself.
And the awareness of what'shappening in the regulation
of self and learning- what arethe things that activate you?
What are the thingsthat can help you self

(57:00):
regulate to stay present?
If this is not one of thosethings where you can't
even be present, then whatare your ways that you're
gonna honor yourself?
What do you need tosay or communicate?
Or is this one of thosethings where you got to
go take care of yourself?
Like knowing all of thatis present in those spaces.
And I think about whenwe're trying to teach

(57:21):
people how to do this work.
It's literally helpingpeople see all of that too.
It's not Hey, here,your colleague.
Hey, speak up for yourself.
It's, yo, there's all thestuff that you're feeling.
What is even, what is all that?
What are you telling yourself?
What are you feeling?
Are you able to evenregulate right now?

(57:42):
Can you hear people?
Can you hear yourself?
And then all of the otherpeople's stuff going on.
And I feel like as...
As I'm saying this, or evenas you were speaking, I was
realizing that what I do,I live my process out loud
a lot in an effort to helppeople see, I really do.

(58:05):
I'm just imagining whenI facilitate spaces, I've
literally said, I am uncertainabout what to do right now.
And I was like, andI'm not sure it's mine.
I'm having troubleregulating myself.
I'll say those things.
So people know too thatI'm in it with you.

(58:25):
While I might know thingsthat you don't know, I
don't know all the thingsand I want that to be okay.
And I remember, I won'tget into this long story.
I just, this approach as someonewho's leading the work isn't
necessarily fully accepted bythis professional space yet.
We're like- Hey, go inthere and just say, you
don't know everything.
I'm not supposedto know everything.

(58:46):
This is difficult.
I am trying to self regulate.
I'm also modeling what itlooks like to know I need to
and figure out what that is.
Can anyone else be inthis space with me to help
hold their responsibility?
I see you.
You want to saysomething, tell me.
No, I was just thinking thatthat, to me, is the key.
It's not, I don't knowanything, I'm not an expert,
and then falling back.

(59:07):
It's the, because I think whatI'm hearing you speak to is the
fact of leaders, facilitators,folks in this role of expertise,
it not being culturally,accepted to have places where
we are not a hundred percentconfident and know the answers
and are a perfect model.
But what I'm hearing andwhat you're saying is that

(59:27):
in acknowledging the toughspots and acknowledging
the diverse experiences
Hmm.
Hmm.
that are occurring withinoneself, you are modeling what
it looks like to do the work.
Which will take folks fromthat surfacy level, like
you talked about earlier,to actually trying it on.

(59:47):
And that it's not going, Idon't know, it's interpreting,
if you will, the processout, living out loud.
I love it.
Interpreting it for everyonein the room to get a clear
understanding of this iswhat's happening here.
So there's not amisunderstanding.
You're modelingthat this is okay.
And this is what experts do.
This is what can be done.

(01:00:09):
And then I think the lastpiece I was like, that part
right there was, and thengiving it back to the group.
This is what it was for me.
How is it for you?
So if there's a rupture, Inotice this, and this is what's
coming up for me, and how areyou all experiencing this?
So giving it back to folks asa facilitator and a leader, to

(01:00:31):
invite them into the circle,to give voice to their diverse
experiences of, the information,the group dynamic, wrestling
with the information, likewrestling with the process.
All of that to me is reallyclosing the loop on you
being human and modeling,experiencing, and then narrating

(01:00:57):
and translating it to the group,and then remind them again, no
spectators, you're in it too.
What are you experiencing?
How does this apply to you?
Yeah.
I'm curious, and then invitingthem into the curiosity as well.
Yes.
Yeah.

(01:01:17):
Gosh, there's somethingelse too that I feel like...
Before we wrap up, there'sa piece that I'm like, Oh, I
think there's a responsibilityto speak about this.
And how can I say it?
There's the need to holdthe space for people's
perspectives and be curious.
Let's understandwhat's going on.

(01:01:38):
And then depending onthe organization, and the
direction that they'rewanting to go and the
approach that they're taking,
certain statements and certainactions don't align with that
and require some teaching too.

(01:02:00):
Because if we say-Hey, everybody can say
what they want, there'sspace for all of it.
And then there's things thatdon't align with an approach to
organizations wanting to take,I wonder if harm could be done,
and let me be very specific.
If an organization's like,okay, we want, let me

(01:02:20):
use a term that's, isn'tgiving anything away.
Let me just say they've takena, an approach where they want
to pay more attention to peoplewho have been historically
targeted for marginalization,whatever that means.
We care about this.
We want to dosomething about this.

(01:02:40):
Whatever words they choose.
And then in spaces, peoplesay things that are in
contradiction to that.
While that might be a beliefthat someone has, part of
holding the space is eitherdemystifying some things,
sharing some information tohelp, help people see what the

(01:03:01):
approach of an organization is.
And that can be reallydifficult too, because I
do want to value people'svalues and their beliefs, and
I want to offer for peoplesome information to consider
that may help them thinkabout showing up for their
colleagues differently.
So I, and that's difficult todo, because oftentimes if it's

(01:03:25):
a perspective that seeminglyimpacts me as a person, or
maybe I think that you thinksomething about me as a person,
I have to regulate myself, holdspace for the fact that we're
going to zoom in and be curiousabout what someone's really
saying, offer an opportunityto share something, because
if I don't say something,then I feel like I'm okaying

(01:03:47):
potential harm in a space.
And then say it in such a waywhere it's I'm actually not
literally telling you what todo, but I am saying, here's some
information that is the contextfor why this organization
has chosen to do this.
Yeah.
Please consider this inwhatever you would like
to do with yourself.
If you want to put that inyour mind, if you want to

(01:04:09):
put it into your practice.
I can't force anybodyto do anything.
But there is, I felt like theresponsibility is, you can't
just open the door to anyone,say everything, it's all
okay, without knowing there'sa responsibility to protect
people in the space from harm.

(01:04:31):
I hope this makes sense.
I just needed to, Ineeded to circle to that.
I'm like, no, no, no.
it's not.
Everybody say whateveryou want, like
Oh, yeah.
No, I agree with you.
I think that it's importantto highlight that and to
clarify that's not what it is.
I don't think you gave thatimpression at any point in this
conversation today that it'severything goes because this is
the part back to the beginningwhere we figure out how we're

(01:04:54):
going to do what we do together.
What I heard in what you saidis that there's a space to
acknowledge people's ideas,people's, maybe going away from
the core values of the team,the organization, the work even.
Acknowledgement, but notcolluding with, not cosigning
the- oh, hear you say this.

(01:05:15):
To me, that's an acknowledgment.
It sounds like this is reallyimportant to you and there is
an expectation or in the there'sa hope, my hope is that the
facilitator and the group willhave a commitment to honesty,
authenticity, and transparency.
I feel like those twoconverge, particularly with

(01:05:36):
these unpopular opinions orwith people working against
what their stated goals are.
Where this is their opinion andwe have to shine a light on and
be open and honest with thatis not meshing with what we
said that we were here to do.
To me, it takes me backto holding a space for the
process and sometimes there arethings that are expressed or

(01:05:59):
maybe they're not expressed.
They haven't been highlighted,which are getting in
the way of the process.
When you were talking around,I was writing myself a note and
it was about the acknowledgementpiece, authenticity, honesty,
but really this idea ofshared accountability.
Holding people to, and thattakes them to, in my mind,

(01:06:20):
from the cerebral, from the Iknow stuff, from the surface-y
to really doing the work.
Holding them accountablefor what they invited,
a facilitator, a leader,whomever's providing
feedback, or even thegroup to show up to do.
Because I also wantto honor folks time.
If we're going to keep just tapdancing around or saying the
niceties or keeping it surface,that is exhausting and that

(01:06:41):
is further harm from folks whosay, I showed up to this because
it's important and I reallywant to do the work, but we
just keep meeting to share greatideas and terms of the week.
What it makes me thinkabout is exactly where
you closed or where youwere wrapping it up with
highlighting the discrepancy.

(01:07:01):
And there's a piece for givingsuggestions, tools, strategies,
and tips, and there's apiece possibly in my mind
before that which is asking apowerful question about I heard
this, but I also heard this.
Again, how do thesework together?
One of my favorite questionsI like to ask people is how
am I contributing to theproblem I'm trying to solve?

(01:07:23):
How are you contributing to theproblem you're trying to solve?
We're saying thisand I'm hearing this.
How does it fit togetherwith where you'd like to go?
Like I said earlier, how'sthat working for you?
And back to our analogy aboutthis being this archaeological
dig and the person goes, Nope,this is a bowl and I'm like it's
clearly, I don't know, a plate.

(01:07:44):
What else could it be?
This is your idea.
This is your thought.
What else might this be?
How do we find out?
So I even to even in thehighlighting the discrepancy
and sometimes I want to justgo that's a lie or no that's
I have to talk to myself andmove through my own process.
To think about- It's notabout changing people's minds.

(01:08:06):
It's not about people justprofessing the right answer.
Which is where we get tothe false harmony, which
I was thinking of earlier.
We get to the false harmony.
Which, in and of itself,stymies diversity.
When people can't raiseunpopular opinions, they
get shut down immediatelybecause people get scared.
What do I do with that?
There's gonna be conflict.

(01:08:26):
Notice it, respect it, hearit, figure out how does it
fit in the space, and theninvite people to consider
where do we go from here?
Yeah.
Okay.
This is awesome.
We can just keep talking aboutthis for forever and ever.

(01:08:49):
Maybe just the last question isthere anything else we want to
say on this before we wrap up?
Because to me, I feel firstof all, I think what I'm
doing right now is processinga lot of information.
I do feel like there's been areally good window into what
space is, who's responsiblefor that space, the things that

(01:09:10):
come up when people are in thespace to hold it for people
there and the accountabilitypart and the commitments and
yeah, I just, I feel very goodabout this and I'm really hoping
that people find themselveshere in something tangible.
Is there anything elseyou'd want to add?

(01:09:33):
I agree with your summaryand I would add it's
okay to change course.
When I think about myself asa facilitator, as a coach, as
someone who's in a space, I amnot the same person today as I
was a year ago, 10 years ago.
And so, there are thingsthat maybe I subscribe

(01:09:54):
to, or I facilitated, orthat I missed or allowed
that I might not do today.
And to be honest, depending onthe day of the week, who the
audience is, who I had a trainnot that long ago, where there
was someone who had harmedme, who didn't remember me
and was fabulous in the space.

(01:10:16):
And I was like this inside thewhole time and trying to do
what I do and was processing,you're sitting right there
and you injured me and youdon't even remember me, right?
Moving through all that.
And I was really proud of howthat space was facilitated and
what I allowed to come in andhow beautifully they were and

(01:10:38):
they were a different personthan when we had encountered
each other years past.
Myself of 10 years ago, threeyears ago, might not have
been able to move throughthat encounter in that way.
So I, I think it is importantfor leaders, facilitators,
holders of space to be able to,again, tap into to the whole

(01:10:59):
person, the whole self, youbring your whole self to it
and know that you're not goingto be Maybe your best vision
of yourself every single time.
That the facilitation is ownedby the whole group, or the team,
or the dyad, or whoever it is.
And, it is okay tochange course, even in

(01:11:20):
a facilitation process.
A thing happened before lunch.
I'm just getting tobringing it back to you all.
That is okay.
I think it reinforces thatthere is this diversity.
We don't need tohave an either or.
I either agree or disagree.
This is either right or wrong.
I either know or I don't know.
What if it's somewhereelse along the continuum?
Thank you for sharing that.

(01:11:41):
It's a good reminder andspectrum and grace on all of it.
I appreciate this entireconversation today.
If people are tellingthemselves, I need to contact
Janice, how can I get in touch?
What is the bestway to reach out?
Email.
Email is the best way.
I'm quick on the email.
Janice@evergreencypher.org

(01:12:03):
All right.
I will leave thatin the description.
Thank you so much for watching.
Please share this episode.
Share it with people in yournetwork, have discussions,
engage in really cool dialogueand figure out what, how
this makes sense for y'alland how you want to grow.
Like, comment, subscribeon whatever platform
you are watching this.
If you want to get incontact with me or Living

(01:12:24):
Unapologetically in general,please visit our website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, there's a socialmedia handles you can email us.
There's lots of freebies,downloadables, got the
guided meditations going.
Very excited about that.
You have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.

(01:12:44):
Other than that, I hopeto be able to connect
soon and until then, bye.

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