December 5, 2023 • 57 mins
In this episode, Stephanie Castellanos, founder of Uproot Talent, shares details about their unique and intentional approach to reforming the hiring process. By focusing on creating room, access, and opportunity for the global majority within social impact organizations, they redesign the job search process around deep listening and learning, breaking down traditional barriers. Stephanie discusses the key skills required for their work, such as boldness, intentionality, foresight, listening, and follow-through. The interview also delves into Stephanie's personal career journey, her experience and growth in challenging the status-quo, and the value of transparency and empathy during the hiring process.
Stephanie Castellanos is a justice & equity strategist and the founder of Uproot Talent – an award-winning boutique talent advising and executive search firm based in Los Angeles, CA.
To get in touch with Stephanie, you can contact her here:
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/uproot-talent
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Social Media Handles: @uproottalent @purposehustle
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
00:00 Setting the Stage 02:09 Stephanie's Personal Background and Journey 05:37 The Birth of Uproot Talent 17:31 The Unique Approach of Uproot Talent 21:56 The Hiring Process and Practices at Uproot Talent 27:08 Supporting Black Women in the Workplace 27:42 Intentionality in Professional Relationships 28:56 Understanding Anti-Oppressive Practices 31:04 Experience and Degrees in Job Applications 33:14 Confidentiality in Job Searches 34:46 Impact of Bias and Racism in the Workplace 38:09 Trust and Integrity in Professional Relationships 46:41 Boldness and Intentionality in Professional Success 48:37 Listening and Following Up in Building Trust 49:51 Being True to Your Word in Professional Relationships 52:45 The Journey of Uproot Talent
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is so different.
(00:01):
I really want tojust experience it.
I'm really like, that's so cool.
I just want to apply forsomething and see what happens.
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out Loud
Discussion Series, and todaywe are talking about a radical
approach of creating moreroom, access, and opportunity
for the global majority withinsocial impact organizations.
(00:23):
I am joined hereby my colleague,
Stephanie Castellanos.
She's going to get waymore into what that means.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, weare unpacking real life
scenarios and issues thatcome up in our interactions
together so that we can learnabout them as a community
that cares about diversity,equity, and inclusion.
(00:45):
As always, the thoughts, views,and opinions that are shared
in this episode, they are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies thatI work for or am employed by.
(01:10):
Now, as I said, I am joinedhere by Stephanie, an amazing
human being doing so manydifferent things in the
space that I just described.
I can't even put thewords to it myself.
I have been a huge fan eversince I met you probably a
little over a year ago, whenyou came and did a workshop
(01:30):
for students in the Masterof Social Work program.
You just gave this in a, itwas such a cool, introduction
slash advanced 60 minute sessionon all the things that they
should be thinking about asnew professionals in the space.
I truly was I was just likefangirling type of thing.
(01:52):
And ever since then, Ijust love how you show up.
I'm so serious.
I'm not even making it up.
The way you show upis freaking awesome.
And I am super happyto have you here.
Would you mind just sharinganything you would like to
share about yourself to takespace and introduce yourself?
Yeah.
Well first, thank you for having
me and also for creatingthis space I think We don't
(02:14):
make enough time and spaceto slow down and have these
types of conversations.
So I'm just grateful to behere and I'm glad we met
through a friend, mutualfriend, who's also really
passionate about this work.
So Stephanie Castellanos, mypronouns are she, her, and ella.
I'm remiss to say, if I didn'tstart to share a little bit
more about myself without firstsaying that I'm a daughter.
(02:37):
I'm a daughter of asingle mom from Mexico.
I'm a sister.
I have three brothers, onethat's seven years younger,
and then I have twin brothers.
So I grew up withtwo older brothers.
So I'm the middle child.
And also the only woman,or least girl in, as my
siblings, part of my siblings.
I am a product of my community.
I grew up in Inglewood,California, which is a
(02:58):
community right outsideof the LAX airport.
As soon as you drive out,that's where I grew up.
I grew up on, near, youknow, the Florence and
between Florence and Slauson.
And I think a lot of myexperience, The way that I see
the world, the relationshipsI've built throughout my life
are really centered around whatit was like to grow up as a
kid in Inglewood, California.
(03:19):
So definitely feel like a lot ofthe work that I'm doing now is
centered around my own personalexperiences that I just shared
as a daughter of immigrants.
I think I, have a daughterof a single mom, who
I saw wake up, 5 a.
m.
and hustle and have multiplejobs and, really value education
and the power of education.
I'm also somebodywho loves plants.
(03:42):
You'll see thatin the background.
I am, yeah and I think thatalso stems from, you know,
ancestral lineage of earthworkers, so my grandpa,
who migrated from Zacatecasto Mexicali, which is a border
town, worked as a bracero.
And he was, so a bracero is,or was, they're farm workers
(04:05):
who came and and cultivatedthe land and were given
momentarily visas or access tothis country to work here for
about three months at a time,and then they would have to
go back and then come back.
He moved to a border townand was able to, in his
eyes, live in some waysthat dream of bringing his
(04:27):
family to the United States.
And also, I'll get into thata little bit later, but as I
got older and started to unpackwhat the actual Bracero Program
was and the systemic oppressionof that particular program.
The impact that it'shad in my own family.
I think that's reallybeen true to who I am.
I, you know, grew up as aLatina and also recognize
(04:51):
that as I went to UCLA, Iwas the first person to go to
college, that I was navigatingan entirely new world.
And For me, a lot of thework that I do now in anti
oppression work, in reallycreating more room and access
and opportunities for peoplewho grew up like us, who have
similar experiences, is rootedin in not knowing what I didn't
(05:14):
know and figuring it out on myown, and having a support in
the community of other badasswomen of color who had similar
experiences growing up in thehood and going to an institution
like UCLA that wasn't createdfor people like us necessarily.
And so a lot of my ownpersonal experiences
as a first gen student.
(05:34):
has really shapedwhat I do today.
And that is, you know, Ihad a nine to five, like
a lot of times I would sayit's definitely more than
nine to five, but, I decidedat some point I decided
two years ago that I canbuild my dream company.
and I just had theaudacity to believe in my
dream and I quit my job.
(05:56):
And I know that takes a lotof, one, a lot of, a lot
of, audacity to do, but alsoa lot of privilege behind
being able to quit my job,save up money to build my own
company, which is now whatI've been doing, we launched.
It took about eight monthsto build it and ideate,
strategize, and, finallylaunched it in July of 2022.
(06:16):
So we are a year old and the, mycompany's name is Uproot Talent.
and we are, we do three things.
First is we are thinkingabout how do we.
Find, hire, and how do wekeep people of the global
majority in positions ofpower, in leadership positions
within social impact?
we are also thinking about,well, okay, so you hired
(06:40):
somebody, a woman of color,you hired a Black woman
in the C suite, now what?
How do we create theconditions to keep them?
And so a lot of the workthat I do is, training.
So we do a lot of antioppression training, we
do a lot of work aroundhow do we decolonize.
The way that we thinkabout career development.
And so one of the workshops thatyou participated in and were
(07:01):
in was around resume design.
And really thinking andreframing the way we
think about resumes.
Which alone is a very racistdocument, if you think about
it, because there's justvery little room for us to
highlight who we really are.
And so a lot of the workand the way that I design
and we'll talk about that,I'm sure in a moment.
The way that I designed thehiring experience is really
(07:21):
rooted in how do we get toknow people outside of their
titles and their roles anda lot of what superficial
things, institutional capitalthat, that this world values,
or at least the UnitedStates values very highly.
And I talk a lot aboutcultural capital.
I talk a lot about centeringlived experience and expertise.
and then within the last 6months, we launched a job board
(07:42):
and a network for people of theglobal majority specifically.
So, to our commitmentto creating access and
opportunities, really creatingthe space for us to find jobs,
to message recruiters, to beable to learn about positions
that often you wouldn't knowif you're not digging through
LinkedIn or, you know, have apop in LinkedIn where somebody
messages you and finds you.
(08:04):
And so really doing the workto close that opportunity gap.
So that was a long winded ofwho I am, but I couldn't start
who I am without talking aboutmy community and my family,
who informs a lot of the wayI think and what I do now.
Yes, oh my gosh, you're justsuch a dynamic person and I
really appreciate you takingthe time to introduce yourself
(08:26):
differently than people areused to introducing themselves.
We had talked aboutthat up front.
And just like experiencing,just experiencing how you
show up as you, like reallywas giving me a completely
different like physical responseto what you were sharing.
And then just started imagining,like, what would it be like if
(08:46):
other people started to speakabout themselves in this way
outside of the traditionalthings that we think we should
be sharing as professionals.
So that was really cool.
I am kind of curious though,like when you took the eight
months to ideate and developUproot Talent, I'm just curious,
(09:07):
like what was that process like?
Just, what was that like?
What informed what you created?
Was it any, I'm sure it'spersonal experience, but
what was part of all of that?
Yeah, I think, or I know,a lot of my design process
was unpacking who I amand the dreams for myself.
(09:30):
And so I think it was a verypersonal experience for me.
I would, I'm someone that evenuntil today, I always carve out
time for what I call deep work.
And really being ableto, to be myself.
For periods of time, be able tosit with an idea or be able to
sit with a lot of information,or I'm also a visual learner.
(09:50):
I'm also neurodivergent.
So I think that's also partof how I learn and how I
process and how I communicate.
But I've been the head of talentfor several organizations.
Including like nationalnonprofit organizations that
focused on hiring for the fostercare system and placing senior
executives into the fostercare systems to innovate and
(10:12):
transform and bring in new ideasand systems for really being
able to find some solutionsto what we're seeing to our
nation's most troubling problemsthat we see in the crisis that
we see around social justice.
I've worked for organizationsin school districts where I
was the head of HR or the headof recruitment and talent, and
(10:33):
I saw a lot of the inequitiesthat happen in hiring.
I saw in auditing compensationstructures and understanding
how many, how women ofcolor, how indigenous women
of Latinas, Black women areoften paid much less, than
their white counterparts.
I fought at the table toclose some of those gaps and
(10:54):
realize that even people likeus are perpetuating a lot
of these racist, anti-Blackpractices within the workplace.
And it wasn't just about, forme and the people who I hope
to hire, it's not just abouthiring a Latina or a Latino man
or somebody who's Indigenous.
(11:15):
But it's really about, becausewe know we can also perpetuate
white supremacy very much.
It's about hiring somebody who'sgoing to disrupt and is going
to do the work to bring moreequity to the workplace, bring
more justice to the workplace.
And so I really satwith, okay, what would it
take for me to do that?
How have I donethat in the past?
(11:35):
What has worked?
What has not worked?
I went out and talked to peoplewho are directors of talent,
chief HR directors, right?
Like really chief diversityofficers and talk to them about.
What are you seeing?
What are some challenges?
What would it look like to bringforth a hiring process that
honors us, that feels like it iscandidate centered, that feels
(11:58):
like we got candidates' backs?
And, that feels also that,like, we are democratizing
the process and thinkingabout power and disrupting
how power and gatekeepingtakes place when we hire.
Especially as a firm, right?
That a lot of the role of afirm is gatekeeping, right?
We are the first peopleto talk to candidates.
(12:21):
We are the first people toreview applications, and we
have a lot of power, in decidingwho moves to the next round.
Who moves?
Who gets access to thatone interview with the
CEO, whomever it is.
And so really thinkinglike, how do I disrupt that?
How do I disruptthat role as a firm?
So I sat with a lot of that.
I talked to a lot of otherpeople who've been doing it
(12:42):
and came up with a processthat I feel has done that
over and over we've hadabout 15 searches in 1 year.
So we, we went in pretty hard.
THe outcome of that has beenour vision coming to fruition.
So I'll talk a little bitabout that in a moment,
but those 8 months weredefinitely a lot of designing.
(13:04):
You know, I was also, youknow, I have a side, I've
been side hustling workshops,like facilitating workshops,
designing, facilitating, whatI call Wokeshops, has been my
side hustle for nine years.
So I, you know, how to keepafloat financially for sure.
So I was still doingthe Wokeshops, but I
was also redesigningthem and adapting them.
(13:24):
So I have like newcurriculum to come out with.
And I was talking to people thatmy previous partners I've done.
Over a thousand workshops innine years, and I talked, I
went back to people and I said,what would you like to see?
What would you, and so reallytaking a human centered design
approach to designing my firmwas really important, again,
(13:46):
for the same reasons that Idesign a human centered design
selection process where I'mnot the sole decision maker.
It's not just my perspective.
It's not just thelens that I have.
I, it's important to bring inall the lens, the candidate
experience, the hiring managerexperience, the CEO experience.
Thinking about participants andpeople who are in my workshops,
what do they think they needor candidates in the past?
(14:09):
So, yeah, it wasdefinitely, took time.
And the way that I launchedactually was by accident.
I will say I was going to take
longer.
I was going to takelonger to launch.
And like many of us, I'm sureyou've experienced it where
you're like, things have tobe perfect in order to launch.
Like I have to have this, I haveto do this has to be, I have
(14:30):
to have a marketing strategy.
And for me, I had a partner whowas a really large nonprofit
or an organization that wasvery reputable and known
in Los Angeles, and the CEOcame, found out that I was.
working on my firm and said,Hey, we need this new chief
(14:51):
position in our organization.
Would you lead it?
And at that point I didn'thave, I didn't have my
applicant tracking system.
I didn't have my LinkedInrecruiter account.
I have all the things thatneed to be in place in order
for a search to launch.
But I couldn't, I couldn'tsay no to that opportunity.
I felt like that was a perfectopportunity of the universe
telling me like, you're ready.
(15:13):
You're more than ready.
You all actually, all youneed to do is just get the
tools in place for you tolaunch, but you're ready.
And so I did within fourdays, I did all the things
that I needed to do.
And we launchedwithin two weeks.
So I launched my companyright after I had a
house fire and I was likeliving out of an Airbnb.
lIke a real housefire, not like a,
(15:35):
a real, we justhad a house fire.
Yeah, we had a house fire andI was living in, an Airbnb
and going through a lot, but Iwas like, if there's no better
time for me than to do it,when you kind of feel anxious
about something or nervous, Ifeel like that's a sign for me,
at least for me, that you'reheaded in the right direction.
So I did it and thenhere we are a year later.
(15:55):
Oh my gosh.
What a story.
That's a story for real.
Wow.
very cool.
One of the things you saidthat I really appreciate,
actually it's two things.
It's lifting up that hiring, youknow, different diverse people
is not just the thing to do.
Don't just hire people thatlook different and just
move on about your day.
(16:17):
Your commitment to workingwith organizations to change
culture, to keep the people thatyou're helping get hired are,
is such an important part of it.
The other thing though, thatI really love about what
you said is your own checkabout what are the things
that you Uproot Talent?
(16:38):
Like, what are you doing thatmight contribute to the very
thing that you're trying to not,
or have other organizationsstop doing because I feel like
it is very normal for us toengage in the types of practices
that we do not want to engagein because it's so normal.
So I just I reallyappreciate that.
It's a really niceresponsibility, accountability
(17:02):
part that not everybody willtake the time to do because
they lean into their intentionto do well, but you know, good
intentions don't always mean
you're gonna always get itthe way you want to get it.
So just thank you for that.
I appreciated that.
Yeah.
You had talked a little earlier.
You had shared aboutsome of your services.
I wasn't sure if you wantedto go into any further
(17:24):
depth to describe them.
You can if you would like oryou let me know if there's
anything that you missed.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm happy to, maybewe can dive a little bit
into the hiring processof what that looks like.
Or some of the strategiesthat we're, I would say are
unique or different thanwhat I've seen in the past.
And I've worked at differentexecutive search firms,
(17:45):
nonprofits, school districts.
And so I think that hasgiven me a balcony view of
things that have worked.
And I think a lot of ourprocess is informed from.
my different experienceslike, okay, this worked, I
really love that about thisprocess, this worked here
and really making it my own.
Our hiring process is one ofthe things that I think that
(18:05):
make it important is that insimilar ways that I design
my company is how I treat arole design process or the
design process of a search.
I am not talking to oneperson and saying, okay,
here's the position.
Right?
Because that's only oneperspective and one lens.
And I think you, you don'tdo justice to the role
and really getting the bigpicture of, what am I missing?
(18:27):
What are some blind spots?
Like this person might thinkI need this, but these other
three or four people areworking with this person and
they feel they need this.
And so, I have a deep learningand listening phase, and I
interview people individuallyand have a set of questions
that really think about,what does this person need
in order to be successful?
(18:47):
Like what would theyneed to achieve?
I asked them about the unspokenrules of working there and
some people, have neverbeen asked that question.
There's a lot of ways you canframe that, but essentially
what I want to get to isthey're often norms, culturally.
There are ways of earningtrust and ways of, building
(19:08):
relationships with anorganization that is very
unique to that organization.
And many people don'tknow until things happen.
Harm has been caused.
Oh, I didn't do this, or nowit's a little bit too late.
Like now, right?
So really getting aheadof understanding what are
those cultural norms, butwhat are the unspoken rules?
(19:29):
Right of that workplace is areally important part of the
interview and deep learningphase because we want to make
sure that we're able to makea match, not just a hire.
And a match means that thecandidate is also choosing and
interviewing the organization.
One of our valuesis transparency.
(19:50):
And that's part of me justbeing raised by my mom being
not sugarcoating and being superdirect, which as a kid, it was
like a lot for me to deal with.
But now I see it as what agift to be raised by my mom
and a family who gave itto me straight up, right?
(20:10):
You can read my, youcan read it in my face.
You can read it inmy body language.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I'm going to tell youexactly, even if I'm seven
years old, I'm going totalk to you like an adult.
And I'm going to tellyou exactly what it is.
And so I think that lensand approach has resonated
with me in this type of workwhen you're doing diversity,
equity, inclusion work,especially for candidates.
(20:31):
There's times we'll design therole and i, another part of,
so we'll launch the role and ifyou look at even our opportunity
descriptions, they're different.
We don't do a laundry listof minimum qualifications
and years of experience andall of these racist ways
of measuring somebody's,capacity or skill set.
(20:52):
We look at evidence, we lookat skill sets, and a lot
of people have transferableskills, and aren't given the
opportunity because, oh, youhaven't held that title before.
And we know why women ofcolor, Black women, Indigenous
women don't hold certaintitles in organizations.
You know, you're underpaid,you're overlooked, you get
less promotions, you'redeemed, you're deemed more
(21:12):
and get lower performanceevaluations every year.
So, it's systemic and reallyrecognizing that these are
systemic, there's systemicoppression and systems in place
to keep women from the suite.
To keep Black womenfrom the C suite.
So we're not looking at, oh,this person has had this title,
therefore I'm making tons ofassumptions of what they can
(21:32):
do and what they can't do.
We're really lookingat the evidence, and
creating a scorecard.
We call the scorecard, andthat's from the book, The
Who, that we adapted from.
And we develop, it's a rubric,that is answering questions like
what's the mission of this role?
What will this person needin order to be successful?
And not just job duties.
(21:53):
We're not looking, this is nota bullet point of job duties.
This is in 2 years, I cangive you this scorecard
and here's what you'll needto achieve in order to be
successful in the role.
And we define that, whatare the core competencies,
the how this person willneed to navigate this role.
And we design the scorecard andour opportunity description is
quite literally- the scorecard.
(22:16):
So we give the candidatethat exact thing of what
you will need to achieve.
We're not doingthe list of duties.
And so now we're having a muchmore evidence based process
where we're looking at, we'renot doing behavioral questions.
We're like, tell me howyou would act if this
happened, situationalor behavioral questions.
Although sometimes thosekinds of questions lend
(22:36):
to understanding quoteunquote soft skills.
We call them powerskills at Uproot.
Where we do a lot of evidencebased questions that look,
or competency questionsthat look at, tell me about
a time when you did X.
Right?
And I think that is animportant aspect of our process.
The other thing that I'll notein a couple of things that
there's a lot of differentthings that we do different,
(22:57):
but what I'll say is uniquelydifferent is also we level
the playing field from theget go, from the start.
So a lot of peopleapply to a job.
We've had 500 applicationsfor one position.
We just had a VP rolethat we filled that had
486 apps for one role.
Right?
Which is a lot.
That's a lot.
(23:18):
And oftentimes, only five, maybe10 people have a phone screen.
Right?
So we don't do phone screens,because again, disrupting the
gatekeeping role that we play.
Instead, everybodygets an interview.
We have a one way videointerview that you
record yourself at home.
We don't have a cover letter.
Instead, we have moreintentional, targeted,
short written responses.
(23:39):
And we do that for two reasons.
One, to give everybody theopportunity to interview.
And we get to, the otherreason is, again, I am
neurodivergent, so I communicateand articulate my expertise
better speaking, like, orally,and some people are better
at it, right, in writing.
Some people, inboth, which is great.
But we wanted to give uppeople opportunity to shine in
(24:01):
whatever way feels best to them.
And so we match both the videointerview, and the written,
which is weighed equally.
as we're lookingat the candidates.
But also I'm notthe decision maker.
I'm not the one that'slooking at the applications
and say, this person is goingto move to the final round.
Instead, we have a searchcommittee that's comprised
of people from theorganization, different tenure.
(24:24):
So people who have beenthere shorter, people who
have been there longer.
We look at racial and genderdiversity, as indicators
as well to get a diversecommittee of people and
their perspectives and lens.
I always say like, I don'tbelieve in objectivity.
Everybody brings a bias
Yeah.
okay.
It's okay.
We all have bias.
That's okay.
It's what we do with that bias.
(24:45):
It's what we do and howwe disrupt that bias.
So, the committee, I shepherdthe committee through the
entire process of selectingthe candidates, moving them
into the final round, whichis a final interview day.
And I think the other thing thatI'll say to that is the final
interview day is like, we willkick off without introducing
(25:09):
ourselves with titles inthe same way that I did.
Instead, everybody bringsa photo of something
that grounds them.
Somebody, somethingthat grounds them.
And instead of, hey, my nameis and this is my title,
we go around the spaceand we never talk titles.
We just talk about our why.
Why am I here andwhy am I grounded?
I just did, we've had fourinterview days in the last two
(25:30):
weeks, and it brings a levelof vulnerability, that I don't
think you would get otherwise,and I think vulnerability is
the recipe for connection.
And so you can see, I mean,people have, I myself have been
emotional when sharing my photo.
You see that we have, We areso much more than what we walk
(25:52):
in the door with every dayin our job, that we bring my
grandma, my grandmother, mymother, I bring my family, I
bring my community, and we'reable to get to know each other
in a much more authentic way.
And so we go through ourinterview day, half day for each
candidate, and then we do a coreferencing stage, for example.
That's another example ofsomething that is again, we're
(26:13):
thinking this is a 2 way street.
They're interviewing theorganization and vice versa.
And so they check, we check 3 oftheir references and vice versa.
We tell the candidate whoelse do you want to talk to?
What reference doyou want to check?
So I took it through a prettylong version of it, but I
wanted to highlight some of thestrategies and practices that
I think lend to a candidatecentered experience that we're
(26:36):
thinking about the candidate.
I'm jumping on 15 minute callswith anybody who applies.
You have my Calendly,it's accessible.
It's not like hiddento only certain people
can get access to it.
I prep every candidate you have.
I, before every interview, Icoach you, support you, make
sure that you have everythingyou need for the interview.
And it's that level ofintention and care and love.
(26:57):
That I think makes a difference,and why we've been able to,
100 percent of the peoplewe've hired have identified as
people of the global majority.
More than two thirdsare first generation.
More than half are black women.
And so that's not acoincidence, right?
That is really doing theextra work, extra mile that
you need in order to supportpeople like us to the final
(27:20):
round and find us, right?
Not just find, not just recruitus, but then shepherd us and
nurture that relationshipuntil you get that offer.
Yeah.
Yes.
You, oh my gosh, you'resaying, everything you're
saying, I'm just imagining.
Like this just needs to belike a series of learning
(27:41):
for people to have.
But then I'm also acknowledginglike, Everything you're
doing is so intentional andworks really well together.
I'm imagining peoplelistening and thinking, Oh,
that's a really good idea.
Like, Ooh, I want to, youknow, just looking at the
pieces of what you're saying.
But it's very clear to methat these aren't just pieces
of things to take and go,like use and implement.
(28:03):
They all are a part of avery intentional process
that works well together,not taking in pieces to try
to make change outside of.
And I love the stewarding aspectof it, and it definitely feels
that you are involved witheveryone else in the process,
opposed to you being in chargeof something that you're not
(28:26):
really in charge of, per se.
You just, you'resaying so many things.
You would also share, Ireally have to just keep
my mind on track becauseit goes everywhere, but
you, your process, yourapproach is amazing.
And you would even say, I don'tremember your exact words, but
you were kind of like, thisis going into detail or you're
(28:47):
giving examples and I think theexamples help people understand
something that I thinkpeople think they understand.
So if someone says these arelike anti oppressive practices.
I believe most people whoare doing this work would
have some idea of whatthat is, but I don't think
that there are really goodexamples of what that means.
(29:08):
So I actually appreciate youtaking the time to give some
very specific examples and drillit down, because you can hear
the intentionality even more.
You can hear the expertisein having to be led in
something like that.
To me, what you're describing isnot something that organizations
just have uniquely builtinside and can do themselves.
(29:30):
You're really filling an area.
That I value so much and think,Oh, if this was a different
time or who knows in the future,I could absolutely see myself
being in a process like that.
Opposed to the ones thatcurrently exist, that feel
a lot like all of the thingsthat you just described.
This is so different.
I really want tojust experience it.
(29:54):
I'm really like, that's so cool.
I just want to apply forsomething and see what happens.
So in our convo, you actuallytalked about, we were talking
about the experiences thatyour clients, but client isn't
necessarily just the candidate.
It's a different way oflooking at even client.
And you were talking abouta co learning process,
and I was wondering if youcould share what that means,
(30:16):
cause you were talking abouteveryone's involved in a
really cool way, and everyone'slearning from each other.
Yeah, could youjust describe that?
Yeah.
I think.
So, I think of co learningin, I, there's two
clients I'm talking about.
One is the candidate and one isthe partner, the organization
or the school district orfoundation, that we're working
(30:38):
with, with the organization.
There is a lot ofunlearning that happens.
So we have been indoctrinated.
We have been taught to hirea very specific, certain
way, and they've beendoing it for a long time.
And so I am patient that changedoesn't happen overnight and
(30:59):
it's not going to happen withone process, but there is
a lot that I am pushed on.
For example, your jobdescriptions, wait, we need
years of experience on there.
I'm like.
Tell me why we need yearsof experience, right?
So for me, the co learningis getting curious.
Like, it really is about,tell me why you think that
and let's talk about it.
(31:19):
and...
Ultimately, what we cometo the conclusion of is why
we don't include years ofexperience, why we don't
include degree requirements.
Of course, there's certainjobs that do need degrees.
Like, if you're going to bea doctor, sure, I definitely
want somebody to be trained.
But those are the types ofroles that we're leading, right?
I think for us, it isimportant to share.
(31:41):
Like, some of the ways thatyour list, your laundry list
of qualifications, for example,are creating barriers, and
are, you know, we know thatwomen of color, won't apply
to a job unless they meet 100percent of the quote unquote
qualifications in a role.
And so the more you have, themore barriers you're creating
(32:04):
for the right candidateto find you and to apply.
It requires a level ofdiscussion and intention and
time with the client to be ableto share why we don't do it.
And there's a learningthat takes place.
and I'm pushed a lot on it.
Like it is not easy.
It does.
They're all just like, Oh, okay.
Well, let's not do it.
(32:25):
They'll like, well, I'mthe CEO is like, well, this
is how we've been doing.
And I'm like, that's great.
That's not how we'regoing to do it here.
So if you're going to work withus, this is the process, right?
So I said no to clients.
And I said, thisisn't a match for us.
And I always say like, notall good money is good money.
And I mean thatlike, I, don't care.
Yes.
I'm a firm.
We're obviously a private firm.
(32:47):
And so I need money tosurvive from financially.
Financial stability is importantfor me, but I'm not going
to go against my own valuesfor anybody or anything.
And so another example is,we trained the committee,
and on anti oppressionpractices, interrupting
(33:08):
bias as a committee.
And a lot of them arelike, what do you mean?
we, no outside food.
We call it like outside food,meaning a lot of people, or
the other day I had a situationwhere a client was trying
to conduct soft references,which is going beyond the
reference check and low key
(33:30):
going behind the candidatesback to find people who
know them and talk to themabout their experience.
Now, I see yourface, body language.
Right?
and so I had to,
that?
but this, these are, this isthings that people, hey, I
know somebody who works here.
Let me go talk to them andsee what he says about him.
Right?
And this is the type ofpractices that are very common.
(33:53):
You know, like, theylearned this somewhere.
They've learned this somewhere.
It's a learned behavior.
It's a learned trait.
And I have to disrupt thatbias and say, one, we know that
especially, and our candidatesare people of low majority.
We, this person, itidentifies as Black.
And I said, we know that, youtalking to people who they
(34:15):
haven't talked to, that meansyou're, this is, you're breaking
confidentiality and so youcan get this person fired.
There could be backlashor retaliation.
With that knowing thatthey're looking for
another job somewhere.
We know what happens.
Like we, we get it.
We know that people get pushedout of organizations all the
time and finding a job andlooking for a job, if it's not
(34:36):
confidential, could mean yourloss of income can mean your
loss of a job and security.
And I don't play with that.
The other thing we know is that.
Black people, especiallyBlack men, are predominantly,
one, they experienceracism, period, every day.
And you don't knowwho you're talking to.
(34:58):
This person could have beenthe person that harmed them.
This person could have bias.
This person could, I heard,or she said, he said.
You have absolutely no idea.
It's not a controlledenvironment.
And you can't make thatjudgment based on somebody who
maybe never actually directlywork with them, or you don't
even know the experienceof what happened because
(35:18):
Black people are constantlycalling out racism in the
workplace and being deemedas too much, disruptive,
pushed out of organizations.
And so do you, for you to gotalk to somebody means that
you don't understand thosedynamics and you don't know
what they might be saying andwhat it carries a lot behind it.
There's, it's not justyou talking to somebody.
(35:40):
So I had to break thatdown to this person.
And still, I think there's a lotof work to do for this person
to understand why I pushedback and I said, absolutely
not, none of my process.
I will not work with youever again if you do this.
Right?
Because again, it'sabout candidate centered.
Like, I'm going toprotect this candidate.
Like, I'm, this is not okay.
(36:01):
And if anybody who trusts togo through my process is going
to trust that I'm going to,I'm going to say the thing when
things like this happen andI'm not going to let it fly.
So that's the colearning piece, right?
And then at the sametime, I'm learning, right?
I'm learning a lotabout organizations.
I'm learning about what'sworking, what doesn't work.
(36:22):
I asked for feedback, notjust from the candidate after
they finish an experience,but from the client and they
don't shy away from givingme real feedback because
I give them real feedback.
right.
right.
So like, they get it.
They're like, okay, well,hey, she's been giving
me real, I'm going togive it to her straight.
And I appreciate that.
I think that's the, somy process has changed
in the last year and it'sbeen because of feedback.
(36:45):
So that's a little bitmore about the co learning.
Okay.
Look, so there is,a part in there.
I just, I'm really curiousabout and it's, I feel like I
understand what it's like to dothe work and work with people
who want to do the work, butalso come up against a bunch
of things to me that I findactivating, like some stuff is
(37:06):
like, why would you, or it'sjust, depending on the day, I
say all kinds of things in mymind, but it's like, I'm going
to describe it for myself.
I'm not naming it for you.
I find it challenging at times.
It's challenging.
It's necessary, it'schallenging, I like it and
I hate it, depending on theday, but I'm thinking about
the internal work that Ihad to do to even be able to
(37:30):
do this with other people.
And I'm imagining you inall of these different
scenarios, just imagining it.
I don't even knowwhat it is for you.
I'm just imagining.
It takes.
You gotta have a lot in you,a lot of skill, a lot of
awareness, a lot of depth to beable to do what you're doing.
(37:52):
And I want to know anythingyou feel comfortable sharing.
I, what is the question?
What is your internal experiencelike in the teaching of others,
in the participating in theco learning by teaching in
some challenging moments?
Yeah.
Ooh, I would not havebeen able to be this bold
(38:12):
earlier in my career.
I'll say that.
And it definitely took a lot ofvery difficult conversations,
falling on my face flat andbeing like, I could have
dealt with that differently.
Or I would get veryemotional early in my career.
And emotional physically,I would cry sometimes.
(38:32):
I sometimes would shake.
I was so angry at certain thingswhen I had to bring it up.
And it took a lot of, like,my own personal unlearning and
work, but also recognizing thator understanding the language
of white supremacy, reallythinking about Tema Okun's
15 characteristics of whitesupremacy and being a student
of them in the workplace.
(38:53):
Thinking about, um, thatone of the, one of those
characteristics is, worship ofthe written word, for example.
And I know that in order to moveorganizations towards action.
They don't careabout your feelings.
(39:14):
Quite simply.
That's how that, that they just,your feelings are, that's great.
You have 'em, we all have them.
But how is I need facts.
Facts not feelings.
Right.
And, I found the re, you sawme re I probably said research
shows like 10 times in thelast 45 minutes or 40 minutes.
And that is a learned traitof how ideal at this, because
(39:36):
these are executive searches.
Right.
So I'm, I'm having interviewswhere the board is in the
interview as a committee.
The CEO has a bigstake in this hire.
And so the quote unquotehigher up I've gone in terms
of managing relationships, Ihave weekly meetings with CEOs.
The more I've understoodthat my feelings and my
(39:57):
emotions are not going toget people to understand,
the why and understand biasor understand how something
might have been racist.
They have an immediatereaction of defensiveness.
And so in this work, whatyour, what I'm hoping and
what we should be doing, Ithink, in my opinion is you
(40:18):
want to get people to feelcomfortable and vulnerable.
In a space.
And the way you do that isone, you build relationships.
So that's my firstand foremost, like.
You saw my introduction.
I do that.
I do that with people.
And people are like, Oh,I'm not supposed to give
this regular introduction.
So I'm going to, like, theytalk more genuinely about who
(40:39):
they are and they realize like,Oh, this is not that type of
relationship I'm going to have.
And I've had a CEO who saylike, I've never had an
introduction like that.
That's, I'm just kind of takenback by it, but I think that's
really at the heart of it ismy own personal unlearning and
understanding of what movesorganizations and what doesn't.
And the other aspect of itis that I've done a lot of
(41:02):
unlearning myself, like,Stephanie in college was
blonde, bleaching my hair,infatuated with, like, my
weight and how I looked.
Really, trying toperpetuate a lot of
Eurocentric ideas of beauty.
Not understanding my whitenessin the same way that I do
now and the privilege ofmy whiteness in a Black
(41:24):
and Brown community.
I did not understand yes, Ihave been in some ways oppressed
in terms of, you know, beinga kid of immigrants, growing
up in poverty, growing up withno, not a dad or a present dad,
growing up in a household withdomestic violence and abuse.
(41:45):
all of these things,yes, they did happen.
And at the same time, there havebeen doors that have opened up
for me that I hadn't even known
have opened up for me becauseof the way that I look, right?
And I had to do a lotof unpacking, a lot of,
understanding of my own identityor my intersectional identities
(42:06):
as a straight, cis, het, right?
Like thinking of all thedifferent intersections of
my identity, as a woman, as afemme presenting woman, right?
Like all of these things areimportant and Little Stephanie
didn't know that at the time.
So I give myself grace, butI also give others grace that
(42:26):
I might be here and you mightnot be at that place yet.
And that's okay.
Right?
So my job is not tolike, you're not here.
It's I don't comeat people like that.
and I think because I am white.
Because I am white peoplelisten to me differently.
Like, I am the person, like,me delivering the information
as a white person is different.
(42:48):
And I think in doing DEI work,or I call it anti oppression
work in my case, how I deemit, is important because I
should be doing, I think thatpeople like me, who are white,
who are navigating this worldas a white person, people say
white passing, I just, whiteperiod, full stop, should
be taking on this labor.
(43:08):
Like we, it should not justbe, my siblings who are much
darker than I am in termsof skin, brown, my mom who
has also, you know, if youlook at her, she definitely
looks like she is Mexican.
She has, she came from a littletown in Mexico, in rural Mexico,
her family did and I look verydifferent and so I know that
(43:32):
and I understand that, but ittook a lot of time and reading
and learning and like podcastsand all types of things, right?
Learning from other people tobe able to come to a place where
I'm like, okay, I obviouslyI'm in a place now of power.
I have a lot of power in whathappens in organizations.
(43:54):
And really using thatprivilege, to be able to
disrupt the lack of a betterword to shit out of it.
I don't know how else to sayit, but like really, like to
really disrupt these places.
And hopefully they, what my goalis that they take whatever works
for them and they adapt it.
And I always say like, Iwant people to fire me.
Like, I don't want peopleto need me anymore.
(44:15):
Like I want them to be ableto sustain a lot of these
practices and say like, Oh, Iactually, I have recruiters now
that are approaching this workthat we don't need you anymore.
And hopefully that's the goal.
Mm-hmm.
mm, mm, mm, mm.
Okay, you, you were likespeaking to a lot of my life.
We have differentlife experiences.
(44:37):
There's a lot of feelingsand some themes that are
the same that I'm reallysitting here just very much
understanding and agreeing with.
Especially, growing up notnecessarily knowing the amount
of privilege, growing up, Ireally was trying to be white.
Like, that's all Iwas trying to do.
(44:59):
That's all I wanted,was to be white.
And I was doing allthe things to do that.
And I was also doing alot of harm and damage to
other people and to myself.
And it is a thing thatI know that I am heard
differently as well.
I just know I am.
Someone told me, you're likethe white person whisperer.
Is that racist?
I'm like...
(45:20):
Yeah, like what?
Yeah, you know, and that'sits own teaching moment.
But the point is, I knowI'm received differently.
I do have a lot of otherexperiences that are a
lot like the ones youwere describing earlier.
There's just thatawareness piece.
And I just.
I just had my own visceralresponse to it when you were
sharing, and thank you forbeing vulnerable and sharing
(45:42):
what your internal process wasand how it is and the way that
impacts how you show up for thepeople that you're working with.
It's really cool.
And I really.
agree with the relationshippiece that is like the
sole focus of LivingUnapologetically.
All we care about is keepingrelationships, building them,
keeping them, repairing them.
(46:03):
It is truly the foundationof being able to do
anything with people.
So I really agree.
I wonder if we can justwrap up with, I think in
your own way, you actuallyprobably touched on this.
I'm thinking about theskills and the values that
it took to even, like, dothis work that y'all are
(46:27):
doing at Uproot Talent.
And I don't know if they canbe put in nice, neat boxes
and they don't have to be, butI'm just wondering if there's
a way to capture, like, whatis it, skill wise or value
wise, what are you using?
Yeah I think the first wordthat comes to mind is bold.
Like you really have to be bold.
(46:48):
And my definition of bold isbeing able to say the thing
that sometimes we're thinking,but then get caught up in the,
what if they think this of me?
What if they say this?
And I think at the end ofthe day, boldness, you have
to think like, here's myobjectives and my goal.
And I'm going to say thething regardless of what the
(47:09):
external factors might be.
What the, what might happento me if I say the thing,
what people might think ofme and all of those things.
Because at the end of theday, I'm reaching that
goal, or for me, I've sharedwhat that goal is for me.
I think the other is youhave to be intentional.
I feel like intentionalityis something that comes in
(47:30):
mind and, Sweat the details.
If you are somebody whois sweats the details,
meaning everything thatI do has a purpose.
There is nothing that I don't doin my process, in my workshops,
in my job board that doesn'thave intention behind it.
And I think one of the wordsthat have been shared with me in
(47:52):
terms of feedback has been that.
Our processes or our work isvery intentional and I think
that is like the biggest typeof compliment you can give me.
The other things, and theseare all like transferable,
right, to, to a lot of, toa lot of different roles.
I think you definitely have tobe somebody who has foresight
(48:14):
so you can read the room, right?
So those are two things.
So one, reading the room, beingable to pick up on cues, on
body language, being able topick up on what's not said, and
make meaning of what's not said.
Being able to...
understand and be empatheticto other people's experiences.
And I don't mean I haveto put myself in other
(48:36):
people's shoes every time.
But I do think youhave to be, and part of
empathy is listening.
You have to be a good listener.
People love listeners. People don't like
people who talk a lot.
I mean, I mean, really, Iwas a kid who talked a lot.
I was a kid who's likestraight A's, but ooh, she
could just be quiet a littlebit more during class.
(48:56):
Like I was that kid.
So this is like theperfect job for me.
I was also the kid that my momtold me to mind my own business
and not adult's business.
I was like listening to my auntsand like, you know, because
I grew up with my, raisedby my aunts and my family, I
was always in their business.
So I feel like one of theskills that even as kids,
we say, Oh, we think that'sa bad trait in a kid.
(49:20):
I would challenge thatand say like, that's an
excellent trait to cultivate.
Right, like that's anexcellent, that's a future
DEI practitioner, for sure.
But those are kids who can readthe room and those are people
who can read the room andunderstand like what's going on
without, you know, you havingto tell them what's going on.
I think that's important.
And then I would wrap up andsay, you, have to follow up.
(49:43):
The follow up is important.
So if you're going to say you'regoing to do something, Do it.
especially in this work.
That's easy, especially at theexecutive level of searches.
That's how you break trust.
And what you don't want isto break trust with people.
And so if you're going to sayyou're going to do something,
you're going to get it done.
And I don't mean like tasks.
(50:04):
I mean, your wordmatters, right?
Your word has weightand integrity.
And if you're going to approachit a certain way, if you stand
true to your process, standyour ground, but follow through
on that and follow up, aretwo things that come to mind.
Because the moment you don'tdo that, then you start
to break trust and thenpeople don't trust you.
(50:25):
And then.
It's hard to interruptbias, it's hard to, get
to people's hearts ifpeople don't trust you.
And that's one of the waysthat I've learned people earned
trust is doing what you actuallysaid you were going to do.
so yeah, I wouldsay those things.
Yes.
Yo, I'm like, yeah, theseare great things, yeah.
(50:46):
You also, like, the thingsyou're describing, I
don't know you that well.
I don't, I remember weinteracted, you know,
that time in the class.
I've seen you online,we connected before
this and even now.
You're the same in every place.
You're the same in every place.
and you're such apowerful person.
(51:08):
Your presence is powerful, and Iam really just, I'm hoping that
people see even the power ofshowing up as self and presence.
Being clear and givingexample, like you just, you're
a great like model for whatit looks like to do things
differently as a profession,professional, however,
(51:28):
people like to determinethat, put that in a box.
I certainly learned alot of things today.
I'm going to enjoy goingback and watching this and
just taking my own notes,take notes, but there were
certain things that I thought,okay, I'm going to go.
I'm going to go do that.
Yeah, I don't even thinkI can summarize this.
What y'all are doingat Uproot Talent is so
(51:48):
needed, so different.
It's like a reallyfresh way to look at,
I don't want to put in a bucket.
We were talking aboutthe creating, access and
opportunities and room for theglobal majority and the way
that y'all do that and do it sobeautifully and intentionally.
(52:10):
The examples justfelt like so tangible.
Like you could see, Iwasn't in any of the rooms.
You could see whatit looks like.
I could imagine as a Blackwoman, what it would feel
like to go through the thingsthat you're describing.
And that felt very powerful.
(52:31):
So I'm just.
I'm having so many moments,but anywho, if someone's
watching this and they'retelling themselves, I need
to talk to Stephanie, Ineed to get in contact with
Uproot Talent, what is thebest way to contact y'all?
Yeah, there's, I guessthere's different ways.
The first is you shoulddefinitely follow
us on social media.
You can find outabout happenings.
(52:53):
We're going to startdoing in person events.
We just had our first inperson event last month.
Which is great, but we'regoing to be hoping to do
a little bit more of that.
So Instagram, Uproot Talent,Twitter, Uproot Talent, on
LinkedIn, you can searchfor Uproot Talent and you'll
find us on LinkedIn as well.
You can slide through our DMs.
You can slide in our DMs.
(53:14):
That's another wayto connect with us.
If you identify as a personof the global majority, I
encourage you to join ourfree network and platform.
You create a talent profile.
I mean, even when you lookat the talent profile, it's
not like your LinkedIn page.
We're asking you, like,What conditions must be
true for you to thrive?
We're thinking about likedifferent questions for you
(53:35):
to share with your futureemployer as they're looking
for you on the network andsending you opportunities too.
But those are, you can jointhe network at careers.
uproottalent.co.
Our website isuprootalent.co, CO, not
dot com, just company, CO.
And I think that's it.
Email, you can emailour admin email.
(53:57):
They always get forwarded to me.
My team member willforward them to me, but
it's admin at uprootalent.
co too.
So, We do like resumedesign and we're going to
start doing some coaching.
And so all of those thingsare coming up the pipeline.
I hope, I just hope y'allcontinue to flourish.
It has been really coolto see how quickly you
(54:17):
all are growing and you'regrowing very quickly and
I guess so.
I'm like, I guess we are.
That is pretty quick.
Yes, yeah, you startedbefore you were even ready to
start and then you just grewHere you are in more stuff.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, I'm totally gonna continueto support and then, yeah,
(54:38):
make sure that my network knowsabout what y'all are doing.
Keep my eyes open.
And then, should there bea day when I need to use
your process, I certainly...
yeah.
serious.
Not messing with theregular stuff no more.
I'm like, no.
I need no gatekeeping.
I need someone stewardingmy process who cares
about me as a candidate.
(55:00):
I need that.
Yeah.
Oh,
Well, thank you.
Thank you again for having meand inviting me in the space.
I always think it's nocoincidence that we met.
So I'm glad that we wereable to keep in touch and
that you invited me to thisreally cool podcast slash
community that you're buildingand have been building for
the last, what, how longhave you been building this?
Like over
(55:20):
this podcast situation,
Podcast but alsolike your business.
oh, the business, so Istarted my business randomly
with some other stuffgoing on that I thought it
was going to be in 2020.
But God sat me down
last year and said, I don'twant you doing anything
except focusing in this area.
So we were really quietlast year and just
(55:42):
rebranded as of last month.
It's just acompletely different.
way that we'reapproaching the work.
So we had a rebirth, wehad a rebirth last month.
So yeah, three years,but it's so different.
It's hard to, it's hard tosay it's been three years.
It's so different.
Yeah, well congrats to you too
(56:04):
thank you.
if you're watching this andyou found this a value, please
share this with people inyour network, have a dialogue
around it, contact UprootTalent to have a completely
different experience y'alland learn follow in general
even if you're not in thatplace of looking to use their
services just follow them.
(56:25):
I'm telling you're gonnalearn in general If you would
like to get contact withme, you can visit my website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, I have all ofmy social media handles.
You can also email.
You'll have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Like, share, subscribe.
(56:46):
Yeah, I think that's it.
Hope we can connect soon.
And until then, bye.
This is so different.
(00:01):
I really want tojust experience it.
I'm really like, that's so cool.
I just want to apply forsomething and see what happens.
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out Loud
Discussion Series, and todaywe are talking about a radical
approach of creating moreroom, access, and opportunity
for the global majority withinsocial impact organizations.
(00:23):
I am joined hereby my colleague,
Stephanie Castellanos.
She's going to get waymore into what that means.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, weare unpacking real life
scenarios and issues thatcome up in our interactions
together so that we can learnabout them as a community
that cares about diversity,equity, and inclusion.
(00:45):
As always, the thoughts, views,and opinions that are shared
in this episode, they are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies thatI work for or am employed by.
(01:10):
Now, as I said, I am joinedhere by Stephanie, an amazing
human being doing so manydifferent things in the
space that I just described.
I can't even put thewords to it myself.
I have been a huge fan eversince I met you probably a
little over a year ago, whenyou came and did a workshop
(01:30):
for students in the Masterof Social Work program.
You just gave this in a, itwas such a cool, introduction
slash advanced 60 minute sessionon all the things that they
should be thinking about asnew professionals in the space.
I truly was I was just likefangirling type of thing.
(01:52):
And ever since then, Ijust love how you show up.
I'm so serious.
I'm not even making it up.
The way you show upis freaking awesome.
And I am super happyto have you here.
Would you mind just sharinganything you would like to
share about yourself to takespace and introduce yourself?
Yeah.
Well first, thank you for having
me and also for creatingthis space I think We don't
(02:14):
make enough time and spaceto slow down and have these
types of conversations.
So I'm just grateful to behere and I'm glad we met
through a friend, mutualfriend, who's also really
passionate about this work.
So Stephanie Castellanos, mypronouns are she, her, and ella.
I'm remiss to say, if I didn'tstart to share a little bit
more about myself without firstsaying that I'm a daughter.
(02:37):
I'm a daughter of asingle mom from Mexico.
I'm a sister.
I have three brothers, onethat's seven years younger,
and then I have twin brothers.
So I grew up withtwo older brothers.
So I'm the middle child.
And also the only woman,or least girl in, as my
siblings, part of my siblings.
I am a product of my community.
I grew up in Inglewood,California, which is a
(02:58):
community right outsideof the LAX airport.
As soon as you drive out,that's where I grew up.
I grew up on, near, youknow, the Florence and
between Florence and Slauson.
And I think a lot of myexperience, The way that I see
the world, the relationshipsI've built throughout my life
are really centered around whatit was like to grow up as a
kid in Inglewood, California.
(03:19):
So definitely feel like a lot ofthe work that I'm doing now is
centered around my own personalexperiences that I just shared
as a daughter of immigrants.
I think I, have a daughterof a single mom, who
I saw wake up, 5 a.
m.
and hustle and have multiplejobs and, really value education
and the power of education.
I'm also somebodywho loves plants.
(03:42):
You'll see thatin the background.
I am, yeah and I think thatalso stems from, you know,
ancestral lineage of earthworkers, so my grandpa,
who migrated from Zacatecasto Mexicali, which is a border
town, worked as a bracero.
And he was, so a bracero is,or was, they're farm workers
(04:05):
who came and and cultivatedthe land and were given
momentarily visas or access tothis country to work here for
about three months at a time,and then they would have to
go back and then come back.
He moved to a border townand was able to, in his
eyes, live in some waysthat dream of bringing his
(04:27):
family to the United States.
And also, I'll get into thata little bit later, but as I
got older and started to unpackwhat the actual Bracero Program
was and the systemic oppressionof that particular program.
The impact that it'shad in my own family.
I think that's reallybeen true to who I am.
I, you know, grew up as aLatina and also recognize
(04:51):
that as I went to UCLA, Iwas the first person to go to
college, that I was navigatingan entirely new world.
And For me, a lot of thework that I do now in anti
oppression work, in reallycreating more room and access
and opportunities for peoplewho grew up like us, who have
similar experiences, is rootedin in not knowing what I didn't
(05:14):
know and figuring it out on myown, and having a support in
the community of other badasswomen of color who had similar
experiences growing up in thehood and going to an institution
like UCLA that wasn't createdfor people like us necessarily.
And so a lot of my ownpersonal experiences
as a first gen student.
(05:34):
has really shapedwhat I do today.
And that is, you know, Ihad a nine to five, like
a lot of times I would sayit's definitely more than
nine to five, but, I decidedat some point I decided
two years ago that I canbuild my dream company.
and I just had theaudacity to believe in my
dream and I quit my job.
(05:56):
And I know that takes a lotof, one, a lot of, a lot
of, audacity to do, but alsoa lot of privilege behind
being able to quit my job,save up money to build my own
company, which is now whatI've been doing, we launched.
It took about eight monthsto build it and ideate,
strategize, and, finallylaunched it in July of 2022.
(06:16):
So we are a year old and the, mycompany's name is Uproot Talent.
and we are, we do three things.
First is we are thinkingabout how do we.
Find, hire, and how do wekeep people of the global
majority in positions ofpower, in leadership positions
within social impact?
we are also thinking about,well, okay, so you hired
(06:40):
somebody, a woman of color,you hired a Black woman
in the C suite, now what?
How do we create theconditions to keep them?
And so a lot of the workthat I do is, training.
So we do a lot of antioppression training, we
do a lot of work aroundhow do we decolonize.
The way that we thinkabout career development.
And so one of the workshops thatyou participated in and were
(07:01):
in was around resume design.
And really thinking andreframing the way we
think about resumes.
Which alone is a very racistdocument, if you think about
it, because there's justvery little room for us to
highlight who we really are.
And so a lot of the workand the way that I design
and we'll talk about that,I'm sure in a moment.
The way that I designed thehiring experience is really
(07:21):
rooted in how do we get toknow people outside of their
titles and their roles anda lot of what superficial
things, institutional capitalthat, that this world values,
or at least the UnitedStates values very highly.
And I talk a lot aboutcultural capital.
I talk a lot about centeringlived experience and expertise.
and then within the last 6months, we launched a job board
(07:42):
and a network for people of theglobal majority specifically.
So, to our commitmentto creating access and
opportunities, really creatingthe space for us to find jobs,
to message recruiters, to beable to learn about positions
that often you wouldn't knowif you're not digging through
LinkedIn or, you know, have apop in LinkedIn where somebody
messages you and finds you.
(08:04):
And so really doing the workto close that opportunity gap.
So that was a long winded ofwho I am, but I couldn't start
who I am without talking aboutmy community and my family,
who informs a lot of the wayI think and what I do now.
Yes, oh my gosh, you're justsuch a dynamic person and I
really appreciate you takingthe time to introduce yourself
(08:26):
differently than people areused to introducing themselves.
We had talked aboutthat up front.
And just like experiencing,just experiencing how you
show up as you, like reallywas giving me a completely
different like physical responseto what you were sharing.
And then just started imagining,like, what would it be like if
(08:46):
other people started to speakabout themselves in this way
outside of the traditionalthings that we think we should
be sharing as professionals.
So that was really cool.
I am kind of curious though,like when you took the eight
months to ideate and developUproot Talent, I'm just curious,
(09:07):
like what was that process like?
Just, what was that like?
What informed what you created?
Was it any, I'm sure it'spersonal experience, but
what was part of all of that?
Yeah, I think, or I know,a lot of my design process
was unpacking who I amand the dreams for myself.
(09:30):
And so I think it was a verypersonal experience for me.
I would, I'm someone that evenuntil today, I always carve out
time for what I call deep work.
And really being ableto, to be myself.
For periods of time, be able tosit with an idea or be able to
sit with a lot of information,or I'm also a visual learner.
(09:50):
I'm also neurodivergent.
So I think that's also partof how I learn and how I
process and how I communicate.
But I've been the head of talentfor several organizations.
Including like nationalnonprofit organizations that
focused on hiring for the fostercare system and placing senior
executives into the fostercare systems to innovate and
(10:12):
transform and bring in new ideasand systems for really being
able to find some solutionsto what we're seeing to our
nation's most troubling problemsthat we see in the crisis that
we see around social justice.
I've worked for organizationsin school districts where I
was the head of HR or the headof recruitment and talent, and
(10:33):
I saw a lot of the inequitiesthat happen in hiring.
I saw in auditing compensationstructures and understanding
how many, how women ofcolor, how indigenous women
of Latinas, Black women areoften paid much less, than
their white counterparts.
I fought at the table toclose some of those gaps and
(10:54):
realize that even people likeus are perpetuating a lot
of these racist, anti-Blackpractices within the workplace.
And it wasn't just about, forme and the people who I hope
to hire, it's not just abouthiring a Latina or a Latino man
or somebody who's Indigenous.
(11:15):
But it's really about, becausewe know we can also perpetuate
white supremacy very much.
It's about hiring somebody who'sgoing to disrupt and is going
to do the work to bring moreequity to the workplace, bring
more justice to the workplace.
And so I really satwith, okay, what would it
take for me to do that?
How have I donethat in the past?
(11:35):
What has worked?
What has not worked?
I went out and talked to peoplewho are directors of talent,
chief HR directors, right?
Like really chief diversityofficers and talk to them about.
What are you seeing?
What are some challenges?
What would it look like to bringforth a hiring process that
honors us, that feels like it iscandidate centered, that feels
(11:58):
like we got candidates' backs?
And, that feels also that,like, we are democratizing
the process and thinkingabout power and disrupting
how power and gatekeepingtakes place when we hire.
Especially as a firm, right?
That a lot of the role of afirm is gatekeeping, right?
We are the first peopleto talk to candidates.
(12:21):
We are the first people toreview applications, and we
have a lot of power, in decidingwho moves to the next round.
Who moves?
Who gets access to thatone interview with the
CEO, whomever it is.
And so really thinkinglike, how do I disrupt that?
How do I disruptthat role as a firm?
So I sat with a lot of that.
I talked to a lot of otherpeople who've been doing it
(12:42):
and came up with a processthat I feel has done that
over and over we've hadabout 15 searches in 1 year.
So we, we went in pretty hard.
THe outcome of that has beenour vision coming to fruition.
So I'll talk a little bitabout that in a moment,
but those 8 months weredefinitely a lot of designing.
(13:04):
You know, I was also, youknow, I have a side, I've
been side hustling workshops,like facilitating workshops,
designing, facilitating, whatI call Wokeshops, has been my
side hustle for nine years.
So I, you know, how to keepafloat financially for sure.
So I was still doingthe Wokeshops, but I
was also redesigningthem and adapting them.
(13:24):
So I have like newcurriculum to come out with.
And I was talking to people thatmy previous partners I've done.
Over a thousand workshops innine years, and I talked, I
went back to people and I said,what would you like to see?
What would you, and so reallytaking a human centered design
approach to designing my firmwas really important, again,
(13:46):
for the same reasons that Idesign a human centered design
selection process where I'mnot the sole decision maker.
It's not just my perspective.
It's not just thelens that I have.
I, it's important to bring inall the lens, the candidate
experience, the hiring managerexperience, the CEO experience.
Thinking about participants andpeople who are in my workshops,
what do they think they needor candidates in the past?
(14:09):
So, yeah, it wasdefinitely, took time.
And the way that I launchedactually was by accident.
I will say I was going to take
longer.
I was going to takelonger to launch.
And like many of us, I'm sureyou've experienced it where
you're like, things have tobe perfect in order to launch.
Like I have to have this, I haveto do this has to be, I have
(14:30):
to have a marketing strategy.
And for me, I had a partner whowas a really large nonprofit
or an organization that wasvery reputable and known
in Los Angeles, and the CEOcame, found out that I was.
working on my firm and said,Hey, we need this new chief
(14:51):
position in our organization.
Would you lead it?
And at that point I didn'thave, I didn't have my
applicant tracking system.
I didn't have my LinkedInrecruiter account.
I have all the things thatneed to be in place in order
for a search to launch.
But I couldn't, I couldn'tsay no to that opportunity.
I felt like that was a perfectopportunity of the universe
telling me like, you're ready.
(15:13):
You're more than ready.
You all actually, all youneed to do is just get the
tools in place for you tolaunch, but you're ready.
And so I did within fourdays, I did all the things
that I needed to do.
And we launchedwithin two weeks.
So I launched my companyright after I had a
house fire and I was likeliving out of an Airbnb.
lIke a real housefire, not like a,
(15:35):
a real, we justhad a house fire.
Yeah, we had a house fire andI was living in, an Airbnb
and going through a lot, but Iwas like, if there's no better
time for me than to do it,when you kind of feel anxious
about something or nervous, Ifeel like that's a sign for me,
at least for me, that you'reheaded in the right direction.
So I did it and thenhere we are a year later.
(15:55):
Oh my gosh.
What a story.
That's a story for real.
Wow.
very cool.
One of the things you saidthat I really appreciate,
actually it's two things.
It's lifting up that hiring, youknow, different diverse people
is not just the thing to do.
Don't just hire people thatlook different and just
move on about your day.
(16:17):
Your commitment to workingwith organizations to change
culture, to keep the people thatyou're helping get hired are,
is such an important part of it.
The other thing though, thatI really love about what
you said is your own checkabout what are the things
that you Uproot Talent?
(16:38):
Like, what are you doing thatmight contribute to the very
thing that you're trying to not,
or have other organizationsstop doing because I feel like
it is very normal for us toengage in the types of practices
that we do not want to engagein because it's so normal.
So I just I reallyappreciate that.
It's a really niceresponsibility, accountability
(17:02):
part that not everybody willtake the time to do because
they lean into their intentionto do well, but you know, good
intentions don't always mean
you're gonna always get itthe way you want to get it.
So just thank you for that.
I appreciated that.
Yeah.
You had talked a little earlier.
You had shared aboutsome of your services.
I wasn't sure if you wantedto go into any further
(17:24):
depth to describe them.
You can if you would like oryou let me know if there's
anything that you missed.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm happy to, maybewe can dive a little bit
into the hiring processof what that looks like.
Or some of the strategiesthat we're, I would say are
unique or different thanwhat I've seen in the past.
And I've worked at differentexecutive search firms,
(17:45):
nonprofits, school districts.
And so I think that hasgiven me a balcony view of
things that have worked.
And I think a lot of ourprocess is informed from.
my different experienceslike, okay, this worked, I
really love that about thisprocess, this worked here
and really making it my own.
Our hiring process is one ofthe things that I think that
(18:05):
make it important is that insimilar ways that I design
my company is how I treat arole design process or the
design process of a search.
I am not talking to oneperson and saying, okay,
here's the position.
Right?
Because that's only oneperspective and one lens.
And I think you, you don'tdo justice to the role
and really getting the bigpicture of, what am I missing?
(18:27):
What are some blind spots?
Like this person might thinkI need this, but these other
three or four people areworking with this person and
they feel they need this.
And so, I have a deep learningand listening phase, and I
interview people individuallyand have a set of questions
that really think about,what does this person need
in order to be successful?
(18:47):
Like what would theyneed to achieve?
I asked them about the unspokenrules of working there and
some people, have neverbeen asked that question.
There's a lot of ways you canframe that, but essentially
what I want to get to isthey're often norms, culturally.
There are ways of earningtrust and ways of, building
(19:08):
relationships with anorganization that is very
unique to that organization.
And many people don'tknow until things happen.
Harm has been caused.
Oh, I didn't do this, or nowit's a little bit too late.
Like now, right?
So really getting aheadof understanding what are
those cultural norms, butwhat are the unspoken rules?
(19:29):
Right of that workplace is areally important part of the
interview and deep learningphase because we want to make
sure that we're able to makea match, not just a hire.
And a match means that thecandidate is also choosing and
interviewing the organization.
One of our valuesis transparency.
(19:50):
And that's part of me justbeing raised by my mom being
not sugarcoating and being superdirect, which as a kid, it was
like a lot for me to deal with.
But now I see it as what agift to be raised by my mom
and a family who gave itto me straight up, right?
(20:10):
You can read my, youcan read it in my face.
You can read it inmy body language.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I'm going to tell youexactly, even if I'm seven
years old, I'm going totalk to you like an adult.
And I'm going to tellyou exactly what it is.
And so I think that lensand approach has resonated
with me in this type of workwhen you're doing diversity,
equity, inclusion work,especially for candidates.
(20:31):
There's times we'll design therole and i, another part of,
so we'll launch the role and ifyou look at even our opportunity
descriptions, they're different.
We don't do a laundry listof minimum qualifications
and years of experience andall of these racist ways
of measuring somebody's,capacity or skill set.
(20:52):
We look at evidence, we lookat skill sets, and a lot
of people have transferableskills, and aren't given the
opportunity because, oh, youhaven't held that title before.
And we know why women ofcolor, Black women, Indigenous
women don't hold certaintitles in organizations.
You know, you're underpaid,you're overlooked, you get
less promotions, you'redeemed, you're deemed more
(21:12):
and get lower performanceevaluations every year.
So, it's systemic and reallyrecognizing that these are
systemic, there's systemicoppression and systems in place
to keep women from the suite.
To keep Black womenfrom the C suite.
So we're not looking at, oh,this person has had this title,
therefore I'm making tons ofassumptions of what they can
(21:32):
do and what they can't do.
We're really lookingat the evidence, and
creating a scorecard.
We call the scorecard, andthat's from the book, The
Who, that we adapted from.
And we develop, it's a rubric,that is answering questions like
what's the mission of this role?
What will this person needin order to be successful?
And not just job duties.
(21:53):
We're not looking, this is nota bullet point of job duties.
This is in 2 years, I cangive you this scorecard
and here's what you'll needto achieve in order to be
successful in the role.
And we define that, whatare the core competencies,
the how this person willneed to navigate this role.
And we design the scorecard andour opportunity description is
quite literally- the scorecard.
(22:16):
So we give the candidatethat exact thing of what
you will need to achieve.
We're not doingthe list of duties.
And so now we're having a muchmore evidence based process
where we're looking at, we'renot doing behavioral questions.
We're like, tell me howyou would act if this
happened, situationalor behavioral questions.
Although sometimes thosekinds of questions lend
(22:36):
to understanding quoteunquote soft skills.
We call them powerskills at Uproot.
Where we do a lot of evidencebased questions that look,
or competency questionsthat look at, tell me about
a time when you did X.
Right?
And I think that is animportant aspect of our process.
The other thing that I'll notein a couple of things that
there's a lot of differentthings that we do different,
(22:57):
but what I'll say is uniquelydifferent is also we level
the playing field from theget go, from the start.
So a lot of peopleapply to a job.
We've had 500 applicationsfor one position.
We just had a VP rolethat we filled that had
486 apps for one role.
Right?
Which is a lot.
That's a lot.
(23:18):
And oftentimes, only five, maybe10 people have a phone screen.
Right?
So we don't do phone screens,because again, disrupting the
gatekeeping role that we play.
Instead, everybodygets an interview.
We have a one way videointerview that you
record yourself at home.
We don't have a cover letter.
Instead, we have moreintentional, targeted,
short written responses.
(23:39):
And we do that for two reasons.
One, to give everybody theopportunity to interview.
And we get to, the otherreason is, again, I am
neurodivergent, so I communicateand articulate my expertise
better speaking, like, orally,and some people are better
at it, right, in writing.
Some people, inboth, which is great.
But we wanted to give uppeople opportunity to shine in
(24:01):
whatever way feels best to them.
And so we match both the videointerview, and the written,
which is weighed equally.
as we're lookingat the candidates.
But also I'm notthe decision maker.
I'm not the one that'slooking at the applications
and say, this person is goingto move to the final round.
Instead, we have a searchcommittee that's comprised
of people from theorganization, different tenure.
(24:24):
So people who have beenthere shorter, people who
have been there longer.
We look at racial and genderdiversity, as indicators
as well to get a diversecommittee of people and
their perspectives and lens.
I always say like, I don'tbelieve in objectivity.
Everybody brings a bias
Yeah.
okay.
It's okay.
We all have bias.
That's okay.
It's what we do with that bias.
(24:45):
It's what we do and howwe disrupt that bias.
So, the committee, I shepherdthe committee through the
entire process of selectingthe candidates, moving them
into the final round, whichis a final interview day.
And I think the other thing thatI'll say to that is the final
interview day is like, we willkick off without introducing
(25:09):
ourselves with titles inthe same way that I did.
Instead, everybody bringsa photo of something
that grounds them.
Somebody, somethingthat grounds them.
And instead of, hey, my nameis and this is my title,
we go around the spaceand we never talk titles.
We just talk about our why.
Why am I here andwhy am I grounded?
I just did, we've had fourinterview days in the last two
(25:30):
weeks, and it brings a levelof vulnerability, that I don't
think you would get otherwise,and I think vulnerability is
the recipe for connection.
And so you can see, I mean,people have, I myself have been
emotional when sharing my photo.
You see that we have, We areso much more than what we walk
(25:52):
in the door with every dayin our job, that we bring my
grandma, my grandmother, mymother, I bring my family, I
bring my community, and we'reable to get to know each other
in a much more authentic way.
And so we go through ourinterview day, half day for each
candidate, and then we do a coreferencing stage, for example.
That's another example ofsomething that is again, we're
(26:13):
thinking this is a 2 way street.
They're interviewing theorganization and vice versa.
And so they check, we check 3 oftheir references and vice versa.
We tell the candidate whoelse do you want to talk to?
What reference doyou want to check?
So I took it through a prettylong version of it, but I
wanted to highlight some of thestrategies and practices that
I think lend to a candidatecentered experience that we're
(26:36):
thinking about the candidate.
I'm jumping on 15 minute callswith anybody who applies.
You have my Calendly,it's accessible.
It's not like hiddento only certain people
can get access to it.
I prep every candidate you have.
I, before every interview, Icoach you, support you, make
sure that you have everythingyou need for the interview.
And it's that level ofintention and care and love.
(26:57):
That I think makes a difference,and why we've been able to,
100 percent of the peoplewe've hired have identified as
people of the global majority.
More than two thirdsare first generation.
More than half are black women.
And so that's not acoincidence, right?
That is really doing theextra work, extra mile that
you need in order to supportpeople like us to the final
(27:20):
round and find us, right?
Not just find, not just recruitus, but then shepherd us and
nurture that relationshipuntil you get that offer.
Yeah.
Yes.
You, oh my gosh, you'resaying, everything you're
saying, I'm just imagining.
Like this just needs to belike a series of learning
(27:41):
for people to have.
But then I'm also acknowledginglike, Everything you're
doing is so intentional andworks really well together.
I'm imagining peoplelistening and thinking, Oh,
that's a really good idea.
Like, Ooh, I want to, youknow, just looking at the
pieces of what you're saying.
But it's very clear to methat these aren't just pieces
of things to take and go,like use and implement.
(28:03):
They all are a part of avery intentional process
that works well together,not taking in pieces to try
to make change outside of.
And I love the stewarding aspectof it, and it definitely feels
that you are involved witheveryone else in the process,
opposed to you being in chargeof something that you're not
(28:26):
really in charge of, per se.
You just, you'resaying so many things.
You would also share, Ireally have to just keep
my mind on track becauseit goes everywhere, but
you, your process, yourapproach is amazing.
And you would even say, I don'tremember your exact words, but
you were kind of like, thisis going into detail or you're
(28:47):
giving examples and I think theexamples help people understand
something that I thinkpeople think they understand.
So if someone says these arelike anti oppressive practices.
I believe most people whoare doing this work would
have some idea of whatthat is, but I don't think
that there are really goodexamples of what that means.
(29:08):
So I actually appreciate youtaking the time to give some
very specific examples and drillit down, because you can hear
the intentionality even more.
You can hear the expertisein having to be led in
something like that.
To me, what you're describing isnot something that organizations
just have uniquely builtinside and can do themselves.
(29:30):
You're really filling an area.
That I value so much and think,Oh, if this was a different
time or who knows in the future,I could absolutely see myself
being in a process like that.
Opposed to the ones thatcurrently exist, that feel
a lot like all of the thingsthat you just described.
This is so different.
I really want tojust experience it.
(29:54):
I'm really like, that's so cool.
I just want to apply forsomething and see what happens.
So in our convo, you actuallytalked about, we were talking
about the experiences thatyour clients, but client isn't
necessarily just the candidate.
It's a different way oflooking at even client.
And you were talking abouta co learning process,
and I was wondering if youcould share what that means,
(30:16):
cause you were talking abouteveryone's involved in a
really cool way, and everyone'slearning from each other.
Yeah, could youjust describe that?
Yeah.
I think.
So, I think of co learningin, I, there's two
clients I'm talking about.
One is the candidate and one isthe partner, the organization
or the school district orfoundation, that we're working
(30:38):
with, with the organization.
There is a lot ofunlearning that happens.
So we have been indoctrinated.
We have been taught to hirea very specific, certain
way, and they've beendoing it for a long time.
And so I am patient that changedoesn't happen overnight and
(30:59):
it's not going to happen withone process, but there is
a lot that I am pushed on.
For example, your jobdescriptions, wait, we need
years of experience on there.
I'm like.
Tell me why we need yearsof experience, right?
So for me, the co learningis getting curious.
Like, it really is about,tell me why you think that
and let's talk about it.
(31:19):
and...
Ultimately, what we cometo the conclusion of is why
we don't include years ofexperience, why we don't
include degree requirements.
Of course, there's certainjobs that do need degrees.
Like, if you're going to bea doctor, sure, I definitely
want somebody to be trained.
But those are the types ofroles that we're leading, right?
I think for us, it isimportant to share.
(31:41):
Like, some of the ways thatyour list, your laundry list
of qualifications, for example,are creating barriers, and
are, you know, we know thatwomen of color, won't apply
to a job unless they meet 100percent of the quote unquote
qualifications in a role.
And so the more you have, themore barriers you're creating
(32:04):
for the right candidateto find you and to apply.
It requires a level ofdiscussion and intention and
time with the client to be ableto share why we don't do it.
And there's a learningthat takes place.
and I'm pushed a lot on it.
Like it is not easy.
It does.
They're all just like, Oh, okay.
Well, let's not do it.
(32:25):
They'll like, well, I'mthe CEO is like, well, this
is how we've been doing.
And I'm like, that's great.
That's not how we'regoing to do it here.
So if you're going to work withus, this is the process, right?
So I said no to clients.
And I said, thisisn't a match for us.
And I always say like, notall good money is good money.
And I mean thatlike, I, don't care.
Yes.
I'm a firm.
We're obviously a private firm.
(32:47):
And so I need money tosurvive from financially.
Financial stability is importantfor me, but I'm not going
to go against my own valuesfor anybody or anything.
And so another example is,we trained the committee,
and on anti oppressionpractices, interrupting
(33:08):
bias as a committee.
And a lot of them arelike, what do you mean?
we, no outside food.
We call it like outside food,meaning a lot of people, or
the other day I had a situationwhere a client was trying
to conduct soft references,which is going beyond the
reference check and low key
(33:30):
going behind the candidatesback to find people who
know them and talk to themabout their experience.
Now, I see yourface, body language.
Right?
and so I had to,
that?
but this, these are, this isthings that people, hey, I
know somebody who works here.
Let me go talk to them andsee what he says about him.
Right?
And this is the type ofpractices that are very common.
(33:53):
You know, like, theylearned this somewhere.
They've learned this somewhere.
It's a learned behavior.
It's a learned trait.
And I have to disrupt thatbias and say, one, we know that
especially, and our candidatesare people of low majority.
We, this person, itidentifies as Black.
And I said, we know that, youtalking to people who they
(34:15):
haven't talked to, that meansyou're, this is, you're breaking
confidentiality and so youcan get this person fired.
There could be backlashor retaliation.
With that knowing thatthey're looking for
another job somewhere.
We know what happens.
Like we, we get it.
We know that people get pushedout of organizations all the
time and finding a job andlooking for a job, if it's not
(34:36):
confidential, could mean yourloss of income can mean your
loss of a job and security.
And I don't play with that.
The other thing we know is that.
Black people, especiallyBlack men, are predominantly,
one, they experienceracism, period, every day.
And you don't knowwho you're talking to.
(34:58):
This person could have beenthe person that harmed them.
This person could have bias.
This person could, I heard,or she said, he said.
You have absolutely no idea.
It's not a controlledenvironment.
And you can't make thatjudgment based on somebody who
maybe never actually directlywork with them, or you don't
even know the experienceof what happened because
(35:18):
Black people are constantlycalling out racism in the
workplace and being deemedas too much, disruptive,
pushed out of organizations.
And so do you, for you to gotalk to somebody means that
you don't understand thosedynamics and you don't know
what they might be saying andwhat it carries a lot behind it.
There's, it's not justyou talking to somebody.
(35:40):
So I had to break thatdown to this person.
And still, I think there's a lotof work to do for this person
to understand why I pushedback and I said, absolutely
not, none of my process.
I will not work with youever again if you do this.
Right?
Because again, it'sabout candidate centered.
Like, I'm going toprotect this candidate.
Like, I'm, this is not okay.
(36:01):
And if anybody who trusts togo through my process is going
to trust that I'm going to,I'm going to say the thing when
things like this happen andI'm not going to let it fly.
So that's the colearning piece, right?
And then at the sametime, I'm learning, right?
I'm learning a lotabout organizations.
I'm learning about what'sworking, what doesn't work.
(36:22):
I asked for feedback, notjust from the candidate after
they finish an experience,but from the client and they
don't shy away from givingme real feedback because
I give them real feedback.
right.
right.
So like, they get it.
They're like, okay, well,hey, she's been giving
me real, I'm going togive it to her straight.
And I appreciate that.
I think that's the, somy process has changed
in the last year and it'sbeen because of feedback.
(36:45):
So that's a little bitmore about the co learning.
Okay.
Look, so there is,a part in there.
I just, I'm really curiousabout and it's, I feel like I
understand what it's like to dothe work and work with people
who want to do the work, butalso come up against a bunch
of things to me that I findactivating, like some stuff is
(37:06):
like, why would you, or it'sjust, depending on the day, I
say all kinds of things in mymind, but it's like, I'm going
to describe it for myself.
I'm not naming it for you.
I find it challenging at times.
It's challenging.
It's necessary, it'schallenging, I like it and
I hate it, depending on theday, but I'm thinking about
the internal work that Ihad to do to even be able to
(37:30):
do this with other people.
And I'm imagining you inall of these different
scenarios, just imagining it.
I don't even knowwhat it is for you.
I'm just imagining.
It takes.
You gotta have a lot in you,a lot of skill, a lot of
awareness, a lot of depth to beable to do what you're doing.
(37:52):
And I want to know anythingyou feel comfortable sharing.
I, what is the question?
What is your internal experiencelike in the teaching of others,
in the participating in theco learning by teaching in
some challenging moments?
Yeah.
Ooh, I would not havebeen able to be this bold
(38:12):
earlier in my career.
I'll say that.
And it definitely took a lot ofvery difficult conversations,
falling on my face flat andbeing like, I could have
dealt with that differently.
Or I would get veryemotional early in my career.
And emotional physically,I would cry sometimes.
(38:32):
I sometimes would shake.
I was so angry at certain thingswhen I had to bring it up.
And it took a lot of, like,my own personal unlearning and
work, but also recognizing thator understanding the language
of white supremacy, reallythinking about Tema Okun's
15 characteristics of whitesupremacy and being a student
of them in the workplace.
(38:53):
Thinking about, um, thatone of the, one of those
characteristics is, worship ofthe written word, for example.
And I know that in order to moveorganizations towards action.
They don't careabout your feelings.
(39:14):
Quite simply.
That's how that, that they just,your feelings are, that's great.
You have 'em, we all have them.
But how is I need facts.
Facts not feelings.
Right.
And, I found the re, you sawme re I probably said research
shows like 10 times in thelast 45 minutes or 40 minutes.
And that is a learned traitof how ideal at this, because
(39:36):
these are executive searches.
Right.
So I'm, I'm having interviewswhere the board is in the
interview as a committee.
The CEO has a bigstake in this hire.
And so the quote unquotehigher up I've gone in terms
of managing relationships, Ihave weekly meetings with CEOs.
The more I've understoodthat my feelings and my
(39:57):
emotions are not going toget people to understand,
the why and understand biasor understand how something
might have been racist.
They have an immediatereaction of defensiveness.
And so in this work, whatyour, what I'm hoping and
what we should be doing, Ithink, in my opinion is you
(40:18):
want to get people to feelcomfortable and vulnerable.
In a space.
And the way you do that isone, you build relationships.
So that's my firstand foremost, like.
You saw my introduction.
I do that.
I do that with people.
And people are like, Oh,I'm not supposed to give
this regular introduction.
So I'm going to, like, theytalk more genuinely about who
(40:39):
they are and they realize like,Oh, this is not that type of
relationship I'm going to have.
And I've had a CEO who saylike, I've never had an
introduction like that.
That's, I'm just kind of takenback by it, but I think that's
really at the heart of it ismy own personal unlearning and
understanding of what movesorganizations and what doesn't.
And the other aspect of itis that I've done a lot of
(41:02):
unlearning myself, like,Stephanie in college was
blonde, bleaching my hair,infatuated with, like, my
weight and how I looked.
Really, trying toperpetuate a lot of
Eurocentric ideas of beauty.
Not understanding my whitenessin the same way that I do
now and the privilege ofmy whiteness in a Black
(41:24):
and Brown community.
I did not understand yes, Ihave been in some ways oppressed
in terms of, you know, beinga kid of immigrants, growing
up in poverty, growing up withno, not a dad or a present dad,
growing up in a household withdomestic violence and abuse.
(41:45):
all of these things,yes, they did happen.
And at the same time, there havebeen doors that have opened up
for me that I hadn't even known
have opened up for me becauseof the way that I look, right?
And I had to do a lotof unpacking, a lot of,
understanding of my own identityor my intersectional identities
(42:06):
as a straight, cis, het, right?
Like thinking of all thedifferent intersections of
my identity, as a woman, as afemme presenting woman, right?
Like all of these things areimportant and Little Stephanie
didn't know that at the time.
So I give myself grace, butI also give others grace that
(42:26):
I might be here and you mightnot be at that place yet.
And that's okay.
Right?
So my job is not tolike, you're not here.
It's I don't comeat people like that.
and I think because I am white.
Because I am white peoplelisten to me differently.
Like, I am the person, like,me delivering the information
as a white person is different.
(42:48):
And I think in doing DEI work,or I call it anti oppression
work in my case, how I deemit, is important because I
should be doing, I think thatpeople like me, who are white,
who are navigating this worldas a white person, people say
white passing, I just, whiteperiod, full stop, should
be taking on this labor.
(43:08):
Like we, it should not justbe, my siblings who are much
darker than I am in termsof skin, brown, my mom who
has also, you know, if youlook at her, she definitely
looks like she is Mexican.
She has, she came from a littletown in Mexico, in rural Mexico,
her family did and I look verydifferent and so I know that
(43:32):
and I understand that, but ittook a lot of time and reading
and learning and like podcastsand all types of things, right?
Learning from other people tobe able to come to a place where
I'm like, okay, I obviouslyI'm in a place now of power.
I have a lot of power in whathappens in organizations.
(43:54):
And really using thatprivilege, to be able to
disrupt the lack of a betterword to shit out of it.
I don't know how else to sayit, but like really, like to
really disrupt these places.
And hopefully they, what my goalis that they take whatever works
for them and they adapt it.
And I always say like, Iwant people to fire me.
Like, I don't want peopleto need me anymore.
(44:15):
Like I want them to be ableto sustain a lot of these
practices and say like, Oh, Iactually, I have recruiters now
that are approaching this workthat we don't need you anymore.
And hopefully that's the goal.
Mm-hmm.
mm, mm, mm, mm.
Okay, you, you were likespeaking to a lot of my life.
We have differentlife experiences.
(44:37):
There's a lot of feelingsand some themes that are
the same that I'm reallysitting here just very much
understanding and agreeing with.
Especially, growing up notnecessarily knowing the amount
of privilege, growing up, Ireally was trying to be white.
Like, that's all Iwas trying to do.
(44:59):
That's all I wanted,was to be white.
And I was doing allthe things to do that.
And I was also doing alot of harm and damage to
other people and to myself.
And it is a thing thatI know that I am heard
differently as well.
I just know I am.
Someone told me, you're likethe white person whisperer.
Is that racist?
I'm like...
(45:20):
Yeah, like what?
Yeah, you know, and that'sits own teaching moment.
But the point is, I knowI'm received differently.
I do have a lot of otherexperiences that are a
lot like the ones youwere describing earlier.
There's just thatawareness piece.
And I just.
I just had my own visceralresponse to it when you were
sharing, and thank you forbeing vulnerable and sharing
(45:42):
what your internal process wasand how it is and the way that
impacts how you show up for thepeople that you're working with.
It's really cool.
And I really.
agree with the relationshippiece that is like the
sole focus of LivingUnapologetically.
All we care about is keepingrelationships, building them,
keeping them, repairing them.
(46:03):
It is truly the foundationof being able to do
anything with people.
So I really agree.
I wonder if we can justwrap up with, I think in
your own way, you actuallyprobably touched on this.
I'm thinking about theskills and the values that
it took to even, like, dothis work that y'all are
(46:27):
doing at Uproot Talent.
And I don't know if they canbe put in nice, neat boxes
and they don't have to be, butI'm just wondering if there's
a way to capture, like, whatis it, skill wise or value
wise, what are you using?
Yeah I think the first wordthat comes to mind is bold.
Like you really have to be bold.
(46:48):
And my definition of bold isbeing able to say the thing
that sometimes we're thinking,but then get caught up in the,
what if they think this of me?
What if they say this?
And I think at the end ofthe day, boldness, you have
to think like, here's myobjectives and my goal.
And I'm going to say thething regardless of what the
(47:09):
external factors might be.
What the, what might happento me if I say the thing,
what people might think ofme and all of those things.
Because at the end of theday, I'm reaching that
goal, or for me, I've sharedwhat that goal is for me.
I think the other is youhave to be intentional.
I feel like intentionalityis something that comes in
(47:30):
mind and, Sweat the details.
If you are somebody whois sweats the details,
meaning everything thatI do has a purpose.
There is nothing that I don't doin my process, in my workshops,
in my job board that doesn'thave intention behind it.
And I think one of the wordsthat have been shared with me in
(47:52):
terms of feedback has been that.
Our processes or our work isvery intentional and I think
that is like the biggest typeof compliment you can give me.
The other things, and theseare all like transferable,
right, to, to a lot of, toa lot of different roles.
I think you definitely have tobe somebody who has foresight
(48:14):
so you can read the room, right?
So those are two things.
So one, reading the room, beingable to pick up on cues, on
body language, being able topick up on what's not said, and
make meaning of what's not said.
Being able to...
understand and be empatheticto other people's experiences.
And I don't mean I haveto put myself in other
(48:36):
people's shoes every time.
But I do think youhave to be, and part of
empathy is listening.
You have to be a good listener.
People love listeners. People don't like
people who talk a lot.
I mean, I mean, really, Iwas a kid who talked a lot.
I was a kid who's likestraight A's, but ooh, she
could just be quiet a littlebit more during class.
(48:56):
Like I was that kid.
So this is like theperfect job for me.
I was also the kid that my momtold me to mind my own business
and not adult's business.
I was like listening to my auntsand like, you know, because
I grew up with my, raisedby my aunts and my family, I
was always in their business.
So I feel like one of theskills that even as kids,
we say, Oh, we think that'sa bad trait in a kid.
(49:20):
I would challenge thatand say like, that's an
excellent trait to cultivate.
Right, like that's anexcellent, that's a future
DEI practitioner, for sure.
But those are kids who can readthe room and those are people
who can read the room andunderstand like what's going on
without, you know, you havingto tell them what's going on.
I think that's important.
And then I would wrap up andsay, you, have to follow up.
(49:43):
The follow up is important.
So if you're going to say you'regoing to do something, Do it.
especially in this work.
That's easy, especially at theexecutive level of searches.
That's how you break trust.
And what you don't want isto break trust with people.
And so if you're going to sayyou're going to do something,
you're going to get it done.
And I don't mean like tasks.
(50:04):
I mean, your wordmatters, right?
Your word has weightand integrity.
And if you're going to approachit a certain way, if you stand
true to your process, standyour ground, but follow through
on that and follow up, aretwo things that come to mind.
Because the moment you don'tdo that, then you start
to break trust and thenpeople don't trust you.
(50:25):
And then.
It's hard to interruptbias, it's hard to, get
to people's hearts ifpeople don't trust you.
And that's one of the waysthat I've learned people earned
trust is doing what you actuallysaid you were going to do.
so yeah, I wouldsay those things.
Yes.
Yo, I'm like, yeah, theseare great things, yeah.
(50:46):
You also, like, the thingsyou're describing, I
don't know you that well.
I don't, I remember weinteracted, you know,
that time in the class.
I've seen you online,we connected before
this and even now.
You're the same in every place.
You're the same in every place.
and you're such apowerful person.
(51:08):
Your presence is powerful, and Iam really just, I'm hoping that
people see even the power ofshowing up as self and presence.
Being clear and givingexample, like you just, you're
a great like model for whatit looks like to do things
differently as a profession,professional, however,
(51:28):
people like to determinethat, put that in a box.
I certainly learned alot of things today.
I'm going to enjoy goingback and watching this and
just taking my own notes,take notes, but there were
certain things that I thought,okay, I'm going to go.
I'm going to go do that.
Yeah, I don't even thinkI can summarize this.
What y'all are doingat Uproot Talent is so
(51:48):
needed, so different.
It's like a reallyfresh way to look at,
I don't want to put in a bucket.
We were talking aboutthe creating, access and
opportunities and room for theglobal majority and the way
that y'all do that and do it sobeautifully and intentionally.
(52:10):
The examples justfelt like so tangible.
Like you could see, Iwasn't in any of the rooms.
You could see whatit looks like.
I could imagine as a Blackwoman, what it would feel
like to go through the thingsthat you're describing.
And that felt very powerful.
(52:31):
So I'm just.
I'm having so many moments,but anywho, if someone's
watching this and they'retelling themselves, I need
to talk to Stephanie, Ineed to get in contact with
Uproot Talent, what is thebest way to contact y'all?
Yeah, there's, I guessthere's different ways.
The first is you shoulddefinitely follow
us on social media.
You can find outabout happenings.
(52:53):
We're going to startdoing in person events.
We just had our first inperson event last month.
Which is great, but we'regoing to be hoping to do
a little bit more of that.
So Instagram, Uproot Talent,Twitter, Uproot Talent, on
LinkedIn, you can searchfor Uproot Talent and you'll
find us on LinkedIn as well.
You can slide through our DMs.
You can slide in our DMs.
(53:14):
That's another wayto connect with us.
If you identify as a personof the global majority, I
encourage you to join ourfree network and platform.
You create a talent profile.
I mean, even when you lookat the talent profile, it's
not like your LinkedIn page.
We're asking you, like,What conditions must be
true for you to thrive?
We're thinking about likedifferent questions for you
(53:35):
to share with your futureemployer as they're looking
for you on the network andsending you opportunities too.
But those are, you can jointhe network at careers.
uproottalent.co.
Our website isuprootalent.co, CO, not
dot com, just company, CO.
And I think that's it.
Email, you can emailour admin email.
(53:57):
They always get forwarded to me.
My team member willforward them to me, but
it's admin at uprootalent.
co too.
So, We do like resumedesign and we're going to
start doing some coaching.
And so all of those thingsare coming up the pipeline.
I hope, I just hope y'allcontinue to flourish.
It has been really coolto see how quickly you
(54:17):
all are growing and you'regrowing very quickly and
I guess so.
I'm like, I guess we are.
That is pretty quick.
Yes, yeah, you startedbefore you were even ready to
start and then you just grewHere you are in more stuff.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, I'm totally gonna continueto support and then, yeah,
(54:38):
make sure that my network knowsabout what y'all are doing.
Keep my eyes open.
And then, should there bea day when I need to use
your process, I certainly...
yeah.
serious.
Not messing with theregular stuff no more.
I'm like, no.
I need no gatekeeping.
I need someone stewardingmy process who cares
about me as a candidate.
(55:00):
I need that.
Yeah.
Oh,
Well, thank you.
Thank you again for having meand inviting me in the space.
I always think it's nocoincidence that we met.
So I'm glad that we wereable to keep in touch and
that you invited me to thisreally cool podcast slash
community that you're buildingand have been building for
the last, what, how longhave you been building this?
Like over
(55:20):
this podcast situation,
Podcast but alsolike your business.
oh, the business, so Istarted my business randomly
with some other stuffgoing on that I thought it
was going to be in 2020.
But God sat me down
last year and said, I don'twant you doing anything
except focusing in this area.
So we were really quietlast year and just
(55:42):
rebranded as of last month.
It's just acompletely different.
way that we'reapproaching the work.
So we had a rebirth, wehad a rebirth last month.
So yeah, three years,but it's so different.
It's hard to, it's hard tosay it's been three years.
It's so different.
Yeah, well congrats to you too
(56:04):
thank you.
if you're watching this andyou found this a value, please
share this with people inyour network, have a dialogue
around it, contact UprootTalent to have a completely
different experience y'alland learn follow in general
even if you're not in thatplace of looking to use their
services just follow them.
(56:25):
I'm telling you're gonnalearn in general If you would
like to get contact withme, you can visit my website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, I have all ofmy social media handles.
You can also email.
You'll have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Like, share, subscribe.
(56:46):
Yeah, I think that's it.
Hope we can connect soon.
And until then, bye.
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.