July 31, 2023 • 42 mins
In this episode, John and Jason talk with Dr. Michelle Miller about how and if technology rewires the brain, artificial intelligence, online learning discussion boards, and her new book “Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology: Teaching, Learning, and the Science of Memory in a Wired World.”
Join Our LinkedIn Group - Online Learning Podcast
Resources:- Michelle Miller’s Website
- Subscribe to Dr. Miller’s Substack Newsletter here
- Michelle Miller at LinkedIn
- Minds Online (2016 )
- Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology: Teaching, Learning, and the Science of Memory in a Wired World (2022)
- James Lang’s “Small Teaching” book
Dr. Michelle Miller is the author of Minds Online: Teaching Effectively with Technology (Harvard University Press, 2014). Her latest book is Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology: Teaching, Learning, and the Science of Memory in a Wired World, coming out in 2022 with West Virginia University Press.
Dr. Miller is a Professor of Psychological Sciences and President’s Distinguished Teaching Fellow at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona. She completed her Ph.D. in cognitive psychology and behavioral neuroscience at the University of California, Los Angeles, and currently writes, teaches, and speaks about maximizing learning in today’s technology-saturated and rapidly-changing world.
TranscriptEP 12 - Michelle Miller final
Jason Johnston: [00:00:00]
Coffee BanterJason Johnston: My first question is, do you have a morning drink of choice?
Michelle Miller: Let's see. I drank about a quart of coffee with a lot of sugar. And as a cognitive psychologist too, I know that caffeine is actually , pretty good for focus and doesn't have too many downsides until we get into the afternoon.
Jason Johnston: And I love those studies, you know, if I'm biased in any way in terms of my research, it is definitely with the coffee studies, because I completely ignore it has a negative title. I'm not interested in that kind of negativity in my life now. The positive ones, longevity increasing productivity. Increasing awareness. I love those coffee studies. Those are some of my favorites.
Michelle Miller: Oh, absolutely. That's a little confirmation bias before breakfast. I know, right? Right. Harmless, right.
IntroJohn Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason
Jason Johnston: Johnston. Hey John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half the Online Learning podcast.
John Nash: Yeah. We are doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the [00:01:00] last two years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great and some of it is, a lot of it still isn't.
And so how are we gonna get to the next stage?
Jason Johnston: That is a great question. How about we make a podcast and talk about it?
John Nash: I think that's a great idea. What do you want to talk about today?
Jason Johnston: Today's an exciting day, John. It's not just about what it's with whom. So we have with us today, Dr. Michelle Miller. And Michelle is the author of a number of books as well as a professor of psychological sciences at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona. Welcome, Michelle.
Michelle Miller: Hi. Thank you. Thanks so much. It's great to be here today.
ConversationJason Johnston: What else would you like our listening audience to know about you on the front end as we're talking?
Michelle Miller: Let's see. So I started out really in my career, if I could just hear a little bit of my origin story for those who haven't heard it [00:02:00] yet. Absolutely. You know, I started out in my graduate career. Studying just really kind of core topics in cognitive science and just really theoretical stuff.
So working memory, language, attention and so on, and how all those things come together. And got to do a great postdoc at Rice University, exploring what were then some very new technologies for functional brain imaging and so on. And it started out as a faculty member at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona.
And just to set the scene a little bit Northern Arizona
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Jason Johnston (00:00):
My first question is, do you have a morning drink of choice?
Michelle Miller (00:04):
Let's see.
I drank about a quart ofcoffee with a lot of sugar.
And as a cognitive psychologist too, Iknow that caffeine is actually , pretty
good for focus and doesn't have too manydownsides until we get into the afternoon.
Jason Johnston (00:20):
And I love those studies, you know, if I'm biased in any way in
terms of my research, it is definitelywith the coffee studies, because I
completely ignore it has a negative title.
I'm not interested in that kindof negativity in my life now.
The positive ones, longevityincreasing productivity.
Increasing awareness.
I love those coffee studies.
Those are some of my favorites.
Michelle Miller (00:41):
Oh, absolutely.
That's a little confirmationbias before breakfast.
I know, right?
Right.
Harmless, right.
John Nash (00:47):
I'm John Nash here with Jason
Jason Johnston (00:48):
Johnston.
Hey John.
Hey everyone.
And this is Online Learning in thesecond half the Online Learning podcast.
John Nash (00:55):
Yeah.
We are doing this podcast to let you inon a conversation we've been having for
the last two years about online education.
Look, online learning has had itschance to be great and some of
it is, a lot of it still isn't.
And so how are we gonnaget to the next stage?
Jason Johnston (01:10):
That is a great question.
How about we make apodcast and talk about it?
John Nash (01:15):
I think that's a great idea.
What do you want to talk about today?
Jason Johnston (01:18):
Today's an exciting day, John.
It's not just about what it's with whom.
So we have with us today, Dr.
Michelle Miller.
And Michelle is the author of a numberof books as well as a professor of
psychological sciences at NorthernArizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona.
(01:39):
Welcome, Michelle.
Michelle Miller (01:41):
Hi.
Thank you.
Thanks so much.
It's great to be here today.
Jason Johnston (01:45):
What else would you like our listening audience to know about
you on the front end as we're talking?
Michelle Miller (01:51):
Let's see.
So I started out really in my career, if Icould just hear a little bit of my origin
story for those who haven't heard it yet.
Absolutely.
You know, I started outin my graduate career.
Studying just really kind of coretopics in cognitive science and
just really theoretical stuff.
So working memory, language,attention and so on, and how
(02:15):
all those things come together.
And got to do a great postdoc atRice University, exploring what were
then some very new technologies forfunctional brain imaging and so on.
And it started out as a facultymember at Northern Arizona
University in Flagstaff, Arizona.
And just to set the scene a littlebit Northern Arizona is it's very
(02:35):
physically and geographically differentand very distinct in many ways.
Folks probably picture a lot of cactus andlittle road runners and things like that.
And you know, triple digit temperaturesup here in northern Arizona.
It's pine trees, grand Canyonmountains skiing and all that.
And some very remote areas.
And Northern Arizona University,historically has been really at the
(02:59):
forefront of a lot of kind of what wewould have called distance education.
It's a little bit of a dated term,now, but just to meet our mission of
working with students and creatingmore opportunities in this unique
remote landscape, we are alsoadjacent to the Navajo Nation and our
(03:20):
institution sits on the traditionalsacred lands of the Navajo or nation.
And there are tremendouschallenges of distance and access.
And so this has created this incrediblyfertile ground for people interested
in educational technology, but alsoall kinds of educational innovation.
So that's what happened in my career aftera lot of graduate students, I was prepared
(03:43):
for a very, a narrow pathway on thetraditional R one research institution.
And let's keep doing studies on thesedifferent narrow theoretical issues.
And I still love that stuff, I thinkit can do so much, but it is a function
of these different things in my career.
I really pivoted to looking at verypractical issues and how we can take
(04:05):
what cognitive psychology, cognitivescience, brain science tells us, use it
to live, work and especially learn better.
So that's what I do today.
And I'm also a Long-term.
I'm a fan of technology.
I've never pursued it reallyprofessionally, but always interested
in how can we adopt the next thingand what's coming over the horizon.
And that's something that in MindsOnline for those who have read that,
(04:28):
that first book, it opens with meas a kid encountering a computer,
which most kids didn't back whenI was growing up in the seventies.
So that's kinda where I'm coming from andI think that's the context that I wanna
offer to readers that today most of my ownresearch is in applied areas, but I love
kind of picking and choosing and almosttranslating some of this classic research
(04:51):
and exciting new research to see how canwe use this to, to help our students.
John Nash (04:55):
I loved your sentence in one of the opening paragraphs in
Remembering and Forgetting, your new book.
And you just said, "this interestin creating great college
pedagogy is a major development."
And I highlighted that andI said, gosh, yes it is.
Could you say a little bit about whyyou think it is a major development?
(05:18):
I think we're have a fan base hereand we agree, but what's from your
perspective, feels different about this?
Michelle Miller (05:24):
Right.
And that is a, that is an important pointtoo, that I like to use as context is
that the things that I has to do, really,I think I think it was as part of a
movement, I think that what we have hereamong people who I think are your podcast
base here, we're the people who are reallypassionate about, yeah, by any means
necessary bringing more opportunities formore learning to more people and doing
(05:49):
so frequently, not always, but frequentlythrough the lenses of these empirical ways
of knowing of cognitive science and so on.
But this is a big deal to me.
when I first started getting into thiswriting about educational technology
and the applications, It struck me.
I always say there are folksout there, they will walk on hot
(06:10):
coals for these innovations, thereare people who are so dedicated.
What is this movement about?
Partly one little thread of it is I wouldcall the course redesign movement that
I got involved with, probably around2005, 2006 I was I got shuffled off to
some conference I went to, to basicallyto be nice after my e-learning center
(06:32):
said, we gave you this grant for onlinelearning, go to this conference, national
Center for Academic Transformation.
I'm like, all right, I'll go,but I, within an hour, I was
like, this is speaking to me.
So that's when I really started seeingthe connections among these individuals
out there, leaders who were saying, Look,these things in technology are happening.
(06:53):
How can we use them to, toreduce the cost, but also
to advance learning as well?
It was the first time I'd heard peoplewho were talking about eliciting student
effort as the means to meaningfullearning and really talking about
engaging students in new ways, even inclasses that were very large sometimes
saying, yeah, we don't have to acceptthat just because Psych 1 0 1 has 300
(07:17):
students in it, that students just taketwo midterms and a final and go home.
So that was part of what Iwould see as this movement.
And I would also say too, I startedteaching our teaching practicum course
for our graduate students around then.
I think there's probably a littleclass like this sort of tucked away
at a lot of graduate departments andit's an oddball that i, I took it
(07:38):
and you might imagine ran with it.
And when I started teaching that course,there was one textbook that was out there.
I think it was, I don't know,it was really good for it time.
It was called Teaching Tips.
So it didn't have reallya super coherent framework.
There was a lot of like, "well, I dothis in my class and students like it."
There was a lot of " like,"well, your number one teaching
strategy and philosophy (08:00):
show up 10 minutes early to class."
That's, and that's pretty much it.
So the advice was scattershot.
It was not taking into accountwhat I was seeing going on in the
study of memory and attention.
And it wasn't taking advantage of that.
And all that started to change.
You started I would say that James Langa really treasured collaborator and I
(08:25):
don't know, hero of mine was writingin the Chronicle of Higher Education,
this powerful column about teaching.
And his work started to evolvemore in this more empirical,
more conceptual direction.
And today we have this incredibleinternational community of people
who share these values and sharea real passionate interest.
(08:47):
We, of course we have differencesof opinion, different favorite
methodologies for getting there,but that's what I see out there.
Jason Johnston (08:53):
Yeah and just talking about your book minds Online.
It was and is a significant book for me.
I've been in a couple different contextswhere I've bought it for everyone that
I have influence over to talk about.
And it's partly because you do, Ithink, a great job of putting together
a lot of the research, your own andother research on the front end.
(09:17):
But then you've got a chapternine you call "putting it all
together," which is set up in sucha way that you then organize as you
said, you're a practicum teacher.
And I think that is very much how I readyour work too, and you put it together
in such a way where you can talk aboutthe questions and then the tools and
tech techniques and principles andideas to actually put things into place.
(09:43):
And I really appreciatethat about your book.
It just made for a very, it's avery practical approach to doing
online, which I think is part ofthis movement as you've talked about
over the last couple of decades.
Oh, thank you.
The one part of the book that I.
(10:05):
I have the page memorizedbecause I referred to it.
Yeah.
It's not very many things.
I'm not, this is not my typicalorientation, but I think I've
referred to it enough times.
I see the number 41, atleast in my hard copy book
Oh.
In my head when I think about it.
But I just wanted to read it andthen have you expound on this
and what you've maybe learned alittle bit since writing this book.
(10:28):
This is from 2014, which isnot that long ago, but there's
still been a couple things.
Yeah.
One or two things thathave happened since then.
Yeah.
But you wrote on page 41 you said that
"in another online class researchcollaborators, and I found that the
number of discussion posts studentsmade were the number one predictor
(10:50):
of their overall course grade.
even though these made up only atiny fraction of course points.
Based on this information I builtin more choices of discussion topics
and began contacting students whoweren't participating early on."
How has your kind of understanding ofthat either expanded or changed or are
(11:14):
you like me where this is somethingthat you've come back to over the years?
Michelle Miller (11:19):
Oh, yes.
And I remember exactly what you're saying.
I mean, and, And this is one of thesethings that I think probably many of us
in this community also have experienced,maybe the first time or two and I think
that came out of the, out of one of myfirst iterations of an online, fully
online course that we realize, oh mygosh, there's basically, I guess you
(11:39):
would, you'd call it learning analyticsbut our evidence of student activity
realizing, oh, wow, it's no longer abasically uneducated, guess what the heck
is going on in the back row or over there.
Or has this person even been to class?
We know, or we can know.
And so in really delving intosome of those numbers, as a social
(12:01):
scientist too, I'm like, oh, it is.
This is fantastic data.
I love it.
So that data's our lovelanguage in social sciences.
So we look at that and it was surprising.
And now that I think back at ittoo it, it also ties into something
we might circle back to later.
We'll see this issue of studentmotivation and engagement and
decoupling that from points and grades.
(12:24):
Boy, is that a big conversation too.
So maybe there was a little glimmerof that, of me saying, oh, wait a
minute, there's not like a one-to-onecorrespondence between the percentage
in the syllabus allocated to your finalgrade and your actual level of engagement?
Who knew?
So those are some things, when Ithink back to that's what I would
look at it now and say, yeah.
(12:45):
And we realized again in this very verybeginning, nascent ability to look at
what students do it on online courses
to say, what do studentseven do when they come in?
We, I was realizing that, entirelyoutside of any design of mine, in that
particular course, the discussion postwith the discussion board students, they
(13:09):
were coming in and checking on them.
And that's what theywould do first to ease in.
And I then I could look at that from myperspective and say, oh, wait a minute.
If that were me, then I,yeah, I might do that too.
Instead of like, "I'm gonna goand do the test for today in the
first five seconds I'm logged on."
I might poke around in discussionsand see what folks have put down.
Mm-hmm.
So, So that is true.
(13:30):
But I do think that today especiallyof our students who've been through
a few of these online coursesthere's definitely not a novelty
factor in online discussion anymore.
That, that has been long gone.
And I think that there is a littlebit of fatigue from them and from
us with the post one, reply to two.
So I definitely think ways of shakingup discussions, ways of backing up and
(13:55):
saying, okay, what is the purpose of this?
Which no doubt in one of thoseearly courses, I probably, I was
like, oh, okay, here's a tool.
I'll do that cuz I'm,that's what you do, right?
I'll just focus on coming upwith some neat creative choices
of these as it talks about.
And I did expand those and I'm, Ithink that they were more a, they were
more of a social or humanizing purposethan a, we are going to have a debate.
(14:19):
We are going to discuss a concept.
So that's always been a little differentin how I've used them, and I definitely
deal with them in some different ways now.
Now, when I'm teaching a facultyprofessional development workshop
online for example I teach, I, I helpfacilitate some that are very short.
They're like a week.
And those very now traditional waysof looking at discussions are not bad.
(14:42):
Just to say, okay, here'swhat I want you to discuss.
Present this right, and then readover at least two other people's
posts and say something and reply.
So it's not like that hasno function whatsoever.
But there are lots of differentways, and this is where the
creativity is starting to blossom.
And where our students, when theyclick in, maybe they stop and realize,
(15:03):
oh, wait a minute, the, this is gonnabe something a little bit different.
John Nash (15:06):
It's a challenge to assess these discussion posts sometime I
think instructors feel challengedto figure out how to assess them.
I had that experience myself,and it was a field of dreams.
We built it and nobody came.
And and nothing reallyinteresting happened.
So I think that's was, it's usefulto be able to think about that.
And then when you have such asituation where participation starts
(15:30):
to tell you more about overalllearning, that's a good feeling.
Michelle Miller (15:34):
Oh yes.
I completely, yeah.
So it's like it can give us thiswonderful window, but it's true.
If we're sitting there with rubrics andword counts and what I've been putting out
there recently is you can accidentally,you can create some pretty perverse
incentives for students to type a lotof words and not have a lot of concepts.
So I think again, there's aplace for that depending on.
(15:57):
There probably are some courseswhere okay, I want a very put
together factual thing thatresponds in some particular way.
When I use them and really this goesback a ways, I have tended to use them
in I guess context that are more, there'shardly any right or wrong answers and
good faith answers are full credit to me.
(16:19):
And I, in case your podcast listenersare falling off their chairs
here and saying, how can that be?
I am teaching psychology, right?
And especially in something like anintroduction to psychology course
or a cognitive psychology course,which tends to be a little bit
unapproachable for some students.
I frequently, what I'm doing, whetherit's a face-to-face or an online class,
is saying, okay, you just learned aboutthis hypothetical theoretical concept.
(16:44):
Let's talk about how you've seen thisplay out in your life or with students.
Students love to talk about theirfavorite media so including podcasts.
So I'll say, Hey, have you seen an isthere an example from a podcast you
listen to, or a show you watch andyou're really passionate about, or a
movie series that you're a big fan of?
So that is, yeah, as long as they'regetting in there and saying, oh yeah,
(17:09):
this completely happened in this show.
Or oh, I was talking to my niecethe other day and babysitting
and this totally happened.
Those kinds of moments I don't,yeah, I don't really sweat a
whole lot of the assessment.
Now.
It means you that, that's why I talkeda lot about choice there too, because I.
In psychology courses.
Yeah, you are talking about some ofcourse sensitive issues, and so you wanna
(17:33):
give people a little bit of opportunityto say, yeah, I'm gonna steer clear
of that, that's a sore subject withme, I'm gonna steer clear of that.
But there's ways to do thator recently too, my graduate
seminar, here's how we use them.
And they work brilliantly for this.
We will sometimes have guest speakersin my teaching practicum course, and
one of the pre-assignment for this issomething that I want my students to
(17:56):
get in the habit of as professionals,which is go Google this person
and find some interesting thing.
You know, coming to speak with us.
Oh, wow.
Tell us about them.
And so in the discussionyou post some facts now.
The twist is you can't post a factthat somebody else has already posted.
So if they're writing about me and say,oh, she wrote a book called Mines Online,
you can't have 20 people say that.
(18:17):
So you have to read all what'scome, and then if you're late to the
game, you're gonna have to dig upsome more obscure stuff about me.
So there's lots of other ways besidesthat traditional one, which I think you're
alluding to, or you're sitting with therubric and going, I don't even know.
John Nash (18:33):
Yeah.
I, and at the risk of listenerssaying all they have is a
humanizing online education hammer.
And so everything theguest says is a nail.
You're, it does sound like the, whatyou've built is discussions, or you're
recommending that discussions centernot on the arcane or a application
of the facts but rather a dialogue onhow it applies to the learner's lives,
(18:58):
and thereby creating community andcreating and humanizing the process and
then getting to outcomes nonetheless.
Is that fair?
Michelle Miller (19:07):
Yeah.
Yes.
I think I, I think so.
And that is, that is animportant connection I think
in our idealistic world.
We are getting to know each otherin discussion forums, perhaps in
echoes of almost the early internet.
And what kind of preceded socialmedia with folks would say I've been
(19:27):
just in this discussion or posting,and there's individuals who I've
never met in person and never will,but I feel really close to them.
And when I, at the end of the day I'llprobably rush off to my computer and say,
oh, I can't wait to see what happenedwith thing that they were going through.
Or again, see so-and-so with theirgreat sense of humor, say what they
(19:48):
posted or have this passionate debate.
That's what we want.
Getting there as a challenge.
But that's the ideal.
Jason Johnston (19:55):
Yeah, and I've had these conversations with faculty members
or administrators frustrated becausestudents often are frustrated with the
text based and especially as you said,post once, respond twice kind of thing.
And I think they're new tools outthere that we've been talking about
that maybe help a little bit inthis way, but I often throw it back
and say what are you trying to do?
(20:16):
And if you are truly trying to create aconversation, I know I don't like to be
graded on my conversations with somebody.
You know, if I was having a, sittingdown having a coffee with somebody Yeah.
And I felt you know, there'ssomebody with a grade book out saying
that was a, that wasn't a greatsentence, you know, kind of thing.
I don't think I would feel veryfree about the conversation.
(20:37):
I don't think it would just rollforward feeling like everything
is gonna be put to the test.
Of this kind of particular litmus testthat it has to be this particular way.
Now at the same time, I thinkthere are, there's a place for
essentially doing assignments thatare open for everybody to see.
And that's what some discussion postsare more so, less about humanizing,
(20:59):
more about creating an assignment thatother peers can respond to and perhaps
give some challenge back to and so on.
But you just have to partly just figureout what are you trying to achieve here?
And I think our online courses needto remember that just because it's
a discussion post format doesn'tmean it is crafted in a way to
(21:20):
really help discussion happen.
Michelle Miller (21:25):
Yeah, that's just so well put.
And what an amazing analogy of, yeah,so we're sitting in that proverbial
coffee shop, having some incredible,trying to have a good, deep discussion.
And I'm the teacher, I have thisunderstanding, and you're the
student, and here's a person who'sgot the checklist running down.
I'm like I think youneeded a semicolon there.
(21:45):
That, that is terrible.
But I think what we're converging onhere too is, of course, creativity,
but I come back a lot to something verysimilar to the concept of affordances.
Instead of discussion does this,and here's the way to do it.
Or you have to have it or not have it.
What does discussionelicit as an interaction?
(22:08):
What does it support?
What does it support easily?
What does it not support so easily?
And yeah, you're right thatthe technology itself doesn't
dictate post ones reply to two.
But for anything you want to be an openassignment for other students to see,
to unfold in an incremental fashion,to be text-based and to be asynchronous
(22:29):
so that you can think about, it can bealmost like a text conversation, but
usually it's a type of interaction wherewe sit and we compose our thoughts.
So yeah.
That's how I think about that.
Jason Johnston (22:40):
Before we Run outta time here.
I did want to talk a little bitabout your other book, your more
most recent book that we've been thatJohn referenced earlier, and just to
focus in on that a little bit more.
A couple of quotes out of that Ithought were interesting just on
the front end, this gives a bit of asummary of the book, which you stated
(23:01):
as the questions at the core of thisbook, remembering and forgetting.
"Does technology enhance memory and byextension all of our other cognitive
capabilities that depend on memoryor does technology erode memory,
making us dependent and getting inthe way of creating new memories."
(23:23):
And then you do an excellent jobwalking through this in various ways.
I think you take such a, I feel likesuch a moderate, cool headed approach
to technology, which I appreciate.
You are neither a pie in the sky kindof person, like it's the best, it's
gonna save us from everything, nor areyou the doomsayer, walking around with
(23:44):
your, sandwich board, telling peoplethat this is gonna be the end of us all.
Somewhere in the middle of thosetwo I think we wanna be in terms
of our conversations and it feelslike you are in terms of your books.
But I am curious about this because oh,and there's this other quote that you're
actually quoting Steve Pinker, which said.
(24:05):
"New forms of media havealways caused moral panics.
The printing press, newspapers,paperbacks, and television were all
once announced as threats to theirconsumer's brain power and moral fiber."
brings us to, having this conversation,at least at my university, saying, what
(24:26):
in the world are we gonna do with ai?
Is this the end of us all?
Can we leverage this?
Various conversations in between?
I just curious what you think inyour book as far as I could tell
you, you had one mention of ai,which is on the very first page.
What would you, if you were to writeanother chapter outta this book?
It's an excellent book, but.
(24:47):
Given where we are today in 2023.
Thinking about ai, would you stilltake a moderate kind of approach to it?
Do you, would you see AI as an amplifierto our abilities in education, or is it
weighing into the threats a little bit
Michelle Miller (25:04):
more?
Right.
Okay.
And I, that's, thank you so much.
Just a little question for you.
No, yeah.
Thanks so much for the characterization.
I do love it.
Sandwich board.
I do walk down the middle of theline and as far as anywhere where
I feel like, oh, I would go backand revise that, or where I really
(25:24):
significantly kinda changed some of myviews over the years, if not a change.
A strengthening of the position that,that social media is really different.
So I would change, socialmedia was the previous " oh
my gosh, this is blowing up."
And there too, based on the, onthe research it, it's, it's a whole
different kettle of fish in a wayand operates on some of its own
(25:44):
principles and has some of its ownimpacts in not all super positive ones.
But getting back to this AI thing, yeah,you could tell that I do take a somewhat
of a long view of these things and wedo, we look back at, I'm of the Sesame
Street generation and Sesame Streetwas definitely, was gonna scramble our
(26:04):
brain and do all these bad things to us.
And so I kinda, I look at anything Ihear now and go yeah, that was, that was
supposed to be true of television, whichwas also quite habit forming and had
a lot of negatives and downsides that.
Were never anticipated.
It is funny that we are at this pointtoo, with chat, G P t I almost, harken
back again to my seventies childhood,I think about how when computers
(26:26):
themselves started to become part ofthe everyday landscape for people.
And there were, we look at, we look backat it now and it's so laughable, but there
were TV shows and books for kids and soon just saying what are these things?
Can they, do they, are they thinking?
Do they have personalities?
How are they different than robots?
And I think when you're generatingall of those narratives in your
(26:48):
popular culture, you're definitelywrestling with what does it all mean?
And it's also tempting to me to bea little blase about it too, as a
cognitive scientist, because, grantednot at all in the form you see today,
but when I was in grad school, we werelooking at neural networks to do things.
And we said, yeah this will be reallypractical eventually for doing more
(27:13):
complex, more human-like solvinga problems and things like that.
But we were looking at how netneural networks work to just to
address some of these things.
So I, I say it, but we didclearly hit a tipping point.
I almost would liken it to things likeemail or social media, those kind of
perked along at this really low levelfor a long time until they hit a certain
(27:37):
point of power and usability to where weall said, oh my gosh, we have to change.
We have to change everything.
So we're looking at it right now and Ido hope to be kinda revisiting a lot of
these core questions in for minds online.
I wanna have that sort of perspectiveand consciousness that it's new,
but it's also not in, in some ways.
(27:59):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, Let's not completely runaway with, "it'll be able to
do everything human beings do."
I think 30 minutes worth ofinteraction with it in reality
disabuses most of us at that notion.
But I, I think too it gives useven more reason to start to build
more flexibility into our courses.
I think I've beenwriting a lot about that.
(28:21):
If we do see it through thatlens of it's a cheating tool.
It's something that students can just runto when they're trying to grapple with
something and develop their own skills.
We might ask and we might say, you know,what really increases the likelihood
that will happen is rigid deadlinesand a lack of a student-centered
purpose in a course where it'sabout you need to do this for me.
(28:42):
Yes.
Instead of why are, what do youwanna get out of this course?
And whatever you're here to get outof this course so that you can go
on and succeed in the future mightnot be compatible with you relying
on a chat G P T or something.
Something like that.
As in a lot of things, I'm like, okay.
Take a breath, everybody.
(29:03):
Let's take a breath.
But let's also really acknowledgethat yes, we finally are to the point
where relatively natural human-likecommunication in visual and text
forms is becoming more accessible.
John Nash (29:19):
I wonder if I could ask you a little bit about something that
my colleagues in the P 12 space havebeen worried about for a while, who
are interested in school technologyleadership, thinking about ways in which
we can think, you know, and measured soberways about the ways in which technology
can be integrated into the curriculumand even in post-secondary but certainly
this matter of whether phones should bein classrooms, these handheld computers
(29:43):
that are actually quite powerful, butcould be used in an interesting way.
And you talk a little bit in thefirst couple of chapters in actually
in what chapter one, what technologydoes to us and for us and how this
the notion of the brain gettingrewired gets so much traction and
particularly amongst naysayers of useof phones in classrooms and the media
(30:06):
that's in put in front of children.
Could you talk a little bit about thebrain rewiring notion and why it gets
so much traction and maybe what are somebetter ways to look at technology and
the mind, especially as my P 12 sistersand brothers start to talk to parents
and other pundits about this space?
Michelle Miller (30:23):
Right.
Boy, that's, that is a big one.
And I, and that's really greatthat you zeroed in on that.
I swear something just pings in my ownbrain, every time I run across that
trope of it's doing something to you.
And there's also kinda, I think, arelated spinoff of tropes that the
look at digital interactions as asort of a pollutant or contaminant
or, you're consuming something and youdon't realize what it's doing to you.
(30:45):
And it's an, it is an important question.
But yes, of course cognitivepsychologists, brain scientists,
we say, "yeah, everythingis rewiring your brains."
Two in particular that I've writtenabout as counter examples are reading.
That really, I've seen the brain scansof people who are reading, there are
(31:05):
brain areas that are hitched up toother brain areas that never, never
would've, I mean, you're just creatingthese new super highways between
areas that formally were more, moreroundabout as far as the connections.
And you can't undo it.
Very easily.
At least once you've learnedto read you can't not read.
It is a big thing learning to drive a car.
(31:27):
How many, yeah, how manyhours do we spend on that?
Yeah.
Right.
And that, so it is, I do really think weought to get out the word that cannot,
just because something might impact yourbrain doesn't mean that it's nefarious.
You know, I talk about that onestudy too that went around years
back showing oh, and people backwhen they could study people who were
(31:50):
net naive who didn't use computers.
And we teach 'em how to use asearch engine and scan their brains
and their brains are different.
It's okay alright, yeah.
Teach them to jump rope and theirbrains are gonna be different.
What is special here?
So there is that.
Better ways to think about it.
I do think or that it was social mediaand with applications and uses that are
(32:14):
engineered to take you off of whateveryou were doing and go keep doing them.
It's important for adults inthis society to learn how to
spot that and cope with it.
And when I'm talking to collegestudents, I'm a very big advocate
of, "okay, you know, own yourtechnology, not the other way around.
(32:35):
And what is your strategy going tobe to make sure, especially if you
are a person like me who loves theirtech, how are you gonna make sure
that you're not going to miss out onthings in your college education?"
And college students areperfectly capable and often tell
me about strategies they have.
For example, going on a vacationtogether, going on the big senior
trip and agreeing not to be ontheir phones or posting selfies.
(32:57):
So that conscious determinationI think is important.
Now, when we get into younger kids now,I always, and I always say too, my, my
specialty and my expertise is with adults.
So I, I wanna be sure not tooverstep my actual expertise.
But I don't think that, and I'm notgonna list an age or anything like
that, but I think we all know that.
Yes.
When you have a lower level ofmaturity anywhere from being a
(33:20):
preschooler to a younger teenager,do you have the ability to do that?
If I have difficulty putting my phonedown because I notice some, I pick it
up for one reason and I'm spirited away.
If I have trouble with that, thensomebody who's 10 is definitely
gonna have trouble with that.
So I do think that external management of,okay, we don't have our phones at school.
(33:43):
Right.
Right.
Or we turn our phones off when,or we collect the phones at night.
That's another big issueis of course, sleep.
And so on.
That makes a huge amount of sense.
So we need to develop thoseskills for management.
But at the earlier age, we, I thinknot leaving it to chance is important.
(34:03):
And really with my college students,we question a lot too of just wow.
So as the assumption that I can't evenpark my electric car now without my
phone or I, you know, it's for so long.
We're like, okay, you kids putout down all your phones also.
You need this to log into to school.
You're gonna need it to park.
I need it, you're gonna needit to order your food at lunch.
(34:26):
All of these incursions, theymay be good, bad, or neutral.
But we can't just sit andaccept them happening to us.
We need to be drivers of that.
John Nash (34:36):
So it sounds like it's really a matter of context with youth and
perhaps those caregivers around them arethoughtful about when this is good to use
and when it may not, because the, whetheror not my brain is being rewired, which
it is or is not that's a different matterfrom whether it's impeding me from getting
to sleep or other practical matters,I think is what I hear you saying.
(34:57):
Yeah.
And
Michelle Miller (34:58):
yeah.
Yeah.
And with kids especially too, and thiswas true of television Definitely.
Yeah.
And our children is theissue of replacement.
And to degree as well with adults,not so much, oh, the phone is doing
something to me, but what am I notdoing because I'm on the phone?
Yeah.
And how can I find those intersections?
I might share that.
I, I follow a hobby, a very excitinghobby of knitting, which actually has
(35:22):
a lot of connections to the technologyand was really revived by being able to
search out certain things online and docertain things we couldn't do before.
But I realized that I was relying on itto store my patterns, to store the, to
count my stitches and do all these things.
And I recently went throughand consciously said, no, I'm
gonna take all of this offline.
I'm gonna make it so I don'thave to have my phone open in
(35:44):
order to work on my sweater.
These are now gonna betwo separate things.
And so that's a small thing.
But that's an example of, again,that the very practical, just,
you know, don't panic, but.
Let's look at what the trade-offs are.
And for younger children, thosetrade-offs get very serious when we're
talking about things like physicalactivity, real-time interaction with
peers, and all that important stuff.
(36:05):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jason Johnston (36:07):
Well, your, Your recent book has a good healthy dose
of cognitive myth debunking, whichI appreciate as well as I think
some practical mindedness to it.
So, um, Really appreciate that.
When you were talking earlier about takinga breath around ai I, I thought of this
idea that we could do, for people thatare listening, we could have a mindful
(36:31):
moment when it comes to technology.
And I feel like that's what yourwriting's about a little bit.
Taking a mindful moment, and we couldsay something like even right now, we
could take a moment and say, breathein your concerns about AI taking
over our educational institutions.
Now, let them all go.
Or you could breathe in, concernthat technology is rewiring
(36:53):
the minds of our youth now.
Let that go.
Yes.
So it's a, it is some, you know, if youever wanna use any of that in any of
your workshops now that's it's you'refree to move forward and those listening
right now, you could just re-listento that part over and over again.
Hold pause as long as you need to breathethese things in and then let them go.
(37:16):
Yeah.
Oh,
Michelle Miller (37:18):
I think you really captured the spirit of it.
Thanks.
I feel better already.
Jason Johnston (37:23):
Okay.
Good.
Good.
So do I.
This has been a reallywonderful conversation.
It has and Michelle reallyappreciate you taking the time.
How can people connect with you?
After this podcast, after listening,what should they be reading?
Michelle Miller (37:37):
Nice that you mentioned reading.
One of my projects this year, whichkicked off in January is what as
we often do is I started a Substackand I, it's part of the drama.
I, I quit Twitter a year ago.
I kind of, mm-hmm.
saw which way the wind wasblowing and decided this wasn't
serving my purposes anymore.
(37:58):
So it made one of those mindful choices.
Mm-hmm.
And uh, at the same time got interestedin, in Substack along with a lot
of other academics and fascinatingfolks who write in the space.
Now, I don't I don't always useit uh, the identical way they do.
But yes, if they find my ck that Iusually, every few weeks I send some
things out and usually the focusis on research that's like they say
(38:21):
roughly about a year old or less.
I really do write about what I'mreading, and it's been a really
good way to focus me, Frankly to,to say what is important out there?
And that is, I'm getting back to myroots of what I think the value is
that I provide to my fellow academicssometimes, which is okay, there's so much
the research that comes out providingthese sort of capsule summaries and
(38:45):
talking a little bit more about what'sthe implications for our practice.
So that's, you can find on Substack andI also um, I, I do, I guess, lack of a
better word blog post from time to time.
I've I blog in frequently, especiallywhen I have a book out, but sometimes
the spirit moves me, so I'll sometimes bewriting more of a really an opinion piece.
And so there was one recently onmotivation and cognition, which
(39:09):
is a perpetual favorite of mineto really wrestle with uh, well,
uh, thing why I did leave Twitterfor those who are super curious.
So that's a big way you can find me.
I have a website.
I, there's not a whole lot of actionthere, but it is the one-stop shop where
you can see things like speaking topics.
I love to speak about the role ofmemory in learning, for example and
(39:31):
the role of motivation, all that stuff.
And catch any blog posts thatI might put up in that way.
So it's Michelle Miller phd.com andLinkedIn because I'm using Twitter for
professional or was using Twitter just forprofessional communications, I thought,
you know what, let me just move all thisover so you can also find me on link.
LinkedIn and follow me for things thatI love to repost, that I see articles
(39:54):
that are out there and yet another wayto discover when I do write something
like a, or an article that comes outand some mainstream publication.
Jason Johnston (40:03):
Yeah.
And we've really been enjoying LinkedInas a professional community of late.
So that's been a good space for us,which is actually the, one of the
places that we connected, I guessmore personally is with our current
podcast and connecting with that, so.
Well that's great.
And we'll put your website, your sub.
(40:23):
Link your books in our show notes, sothose listening, please check out our
show notes and check all those as wellas check out anytime online learning
podcast.com has all of our episodesand all of our notes there, as well
as the link to our LinkedIn community.
So I'd love to hear from you andsee what you think about all the
things that we've talked about today.
(40:44):
Right, John?
John Nash (40:44):
Michelle I'm, I'm very concerned uh, for you and your
knitting because of all the bevy ofresearch that's out there about how
it's rewiring your brain negatively.
Michelle Miller (40:55):
Oh, definitely.
Right.
You think I've spent a lotof time on social media.
I spent a lot of time making sweaters,
Jason Johnston (41:02):
and we were obsessed.
I heard about some kids who uh,all, all they, when they looked at
other people, although they couldsee were two knitting needles.
Michelle Miller (41:14):
Is that a raglin?
Yeah.
How's the neck as the neckband attached?
Yeah.
So yeah, that was a little off thecuff, but definitely an illustration.
Jason Johnston (41:25):
It's so great to talk to you.
Thank you so much for taking Thank you.
All in touch.
Yeah, thank you so much.
John Nash (41:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
Really looking forward to continuing theconversation online as we think about
these things we've talked about todaywith you, michelle, thank you so much.
Michelle Miller (41:40):
My pleasure.
Looking forward to connecting andcontinuing the conversation as well.
Yep.
Jason Johnston (41:45):
Thank you.
My first question is, do you have a morning drink of choice?
Michelle Miller (00:04):
Let's see.
I drank about a quart ofcoffee with a lot of sugar.
And as a cognitive psychologist too, Iknow that caffeine is actually , pretty
good for focus and doesn't have too manydownsides until we get into the afternoon.
Jason Johnston (00:20):
And I love those studies, you know, if I'm biased in any way in
terms of my research, it is definitelywith the coffee studies, because I
completely ignore it has a negative title.
I'm not interested in that kindof negativity in my life now.
The positive ones, longevityincreasing productivity.
Increasing awareness.
I love those coffee studies.
Those are some of my favorites.
Michelle Miller (00:41):
Oh, absolutely.
That's a little confirmationbias before breakfast.
I know, right?
Right.
Harmless, right.
John Nash (00:47):
I'm John Nash here with Jason
Jason Johnston (00:48):
Johnston.
Hey John.
Hey everyone.
And this is Online Learning in thesecond half the Online Learning podcast.
John Nash (00:55):
Yeah.
We are doing this podcast to let you inon a conversation we've been having for
the last two years about online education.
Look, online learning has had itschance to be great and some of
it is, a lot of it still isn't.
And so how are we gonnaget to the next stage?
Jason Johnston (01:10):
That is a great question.
How about we make apodcast and talk about it?
John Nash (01:15):
I think that's a great idea.
What do you want to talk about today?
Jason Johnston (01:18):
Today's an exciting day, John.
It's not just about what it's with whom.
So we have with us today, Dr.
Michelle Miller.
And Michelle is the author of a numberof books as well as a professor of
psychological sciences at NorthernArizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona.
(01:39):
Welcome, Michelle.
Michelle Miller (01:41):
Hi.
Thank you.
Thanks so much.
It's great to be here today.
Jason Johnston (01:45):
What else would you like our listening audience to know about
you on the front end as we're talking?
Michelle Miller (01:51):
Let's see.
So I started out really in my career, if Icould just hear a little bit of my origin
story for those who haven't heard it yet.
Absolutely.
You know, I started outin my graduate career.
Studying just really kind of coretopics in cognitive science and
just really theoretical stuff.
So working memory, language,attention and so on, and how
(02:15):
all those things come together.
And got to do a great postdoc atRice University, exploring what were
then some very new technologies forfunctional brain imaging and so on.
And it started out as a facultymember at Northern Arizona
University in Flagstaff, Arizona.
And just to set the scene a littlebit Northern Arizona is it's very
(02:35):
physically and geographically differentand very distinct in many ways.
Folks probably picture a lot of cactus andlittle road runners and things like that.
And you know, triple digit temperaturesup here in northern Arizona.
It's pine trees, grand Canyonmountains skiing and all that.
And some very remote areas.
And Northern Arizona University,historically has been really at the
(02:59):
forefront of a lot of kind of what wewould have called distance education.
It's a little bit of a dated term,now, but just to meet our mission of
working with students and creatingmore opportunities in this unique
remote landscape, we are alsoadjacent to the Navajo Nation and our
(03:20):
institution sits on the traditionalsacred lands of the Navajo or nation.
And there are tremendouschallenges of distance and access.
And so this has created this incrediblyfertile ground for people interested
in educational technology, but alsoall kinds of educational innovation.
So that's what happened in my career aftera lot of graduate students, I was prepared
(03:43):
for a very, a narrow pathway on thetraditional R one research institution.
And let's keep doing studies on thesedifferent narrow theoretical issues.
And I still love that stuff, I thinkit can do so much, but it is a function
of these different things in my career.
I really pivoted to looking at verypractical issues and how we can take
(04:05):
what cognitive psychology, cognitivescience, brain science tells us, use it
to live, work and especially learn better.
So that's what I do today.
And I'm also a Long-term.
I'm a fan of technology.
I've never pursued it reallyprofessionally, but always interested
in how can we adopt the next thingand what's coming over the horizon.
And that's something that in MindsOnline for those who have read that,
(04:28):
that first book, it opens with meas a kid encountering a computer,
which most kids didn't back whenI was growing up in the seventies.
So that's kinda where I'm coming from andI think that's the context that I wanna
offer to readers that today most of my ownresearch is in applied areas, but I love
kind of picking and choosing and almosttranslating some of this classic research
(04:51):
and exciting new research to see how canwe use this to, to help our students.
John Nash (04:55):
I loved your sentence in one of the opening paragraphs in
Remembering and Forgetting, your new book.
And you just said, "this interestin creating great college
pedagogy is a major development."
And I highlighted that andI said, gosh, yes it is.
Could you say a little bit about whyyou think it is a major development?
(05:18):
I think we're have a fan base hereand we agree, but what's from your
perspective, feels different about this?
Michelle Miller (05:24):
Right.
And that is a, that is an important pointtoo, that I like to use as context is
that the things that I has to do, really,I think I think it was as part of a
movement, I think that what we have hereamong people who I think are your podcast
base here, we're the people who are reallypassionate about, yeah, by any means
necessary bringing more opportunities formore learning to more people and doing
(05:49):
so frequently, not always, but frequentlythrough the lenses of these empirical ways
of knowing of cognitive science and so on.
But this is a big deal to me.
when I first started getting into thiswriting about educational technology
and the applications, It struck me.
I always say there are folksout there, they will walk on hot
(06:10):
coals for these innovations, thereare people who are so dedicated.
What is this movement about?
Partly one little thread of it is I wouldcall the course redesign movement that
I got involved with, probably around2005, 2006 I was I got shuffled off to
some conference I went to, to basicallyto be nice after my e-learning center
(06:32):
said, we gave you this grant for onlinelearning, go to this conference, national
Center for Academic Transformation.
I'm like, all right, I'll go,but I, within an hour, I was
like, this is speaking to me.
So that's when I really started seeingthe connections among these individuals
out there, leaders who were saying, Look,these things in technology are happening.
(06:53):
How can we use them to, toreduce the cost, but also
to advance learning as well?
It was the first time I'd heard peoplewho were talking about eliciting student
effort as the means to meaningfullearning and really talking about
engaging students in new ways, even inclasses that were very large sometimes
saying, yeah, we don't have to acceptthat just because Psych 1 0 1 has 300
(07:17):
students in it, that students just taketwo midterms and a final and go home.
So that was part of what Iwould see as this movement.
And I would also say too, I startedteaching our teaching practicum course
for our graduate students around then.
I think there's probably a littleclass like this sort of tucked away
at a lot of graduate departments andit's an oddball that i, I took it
(07:38):
and you might imagine ran with it.
And when I started teaching that course,there was one textbook that was out there.
I think it was, I don't know,it was really good for it time.
It was called Teaching Tips.
So it didn't have reallya super coherent framework.
There was a lot of like, "well, I dothis in my class and students like it."
There was a lot of " like,"well, your number one teaching
strategy and philosophy (08:00):
show up 10 minutes early to class."
That's, and that's pretty much it.
So the advice was scattershot.
It was not taking into accountwhat I was seeing going on in the
study of memory and attention.
And it wasn't taking advantage of that.
And all that started to change.
You started I would say that James Langa really treasured collaborator and I
(08:25):
don't know, hero of mine was writingin the Chronicle of Higher Education,
this powerful column about teaching.
And his work started to evolvemore in this more empirical,
more conceptual direction.
And today we have this incredibleinternational community of people
who share these values and sharea real passionate interest.
(08:47):
We, of course we have differencesof opinion, different favorite
methodologies for getting there,but that's what I see out there.
Jason Johnston (08:53):
Yeah and just talking about your book minds Online.
It was and is a significant book for me.
I've been in a couple different contextswhere I've bought it for everyone that
I have influence over to talk about.
And it's partly because you do, Ithink, a great job of putting together
a lot of the research, your own andother research on the front end.
(09:17):
But then you've got a chapternine you call "putting it all
together," which is set up in sucha way that you then organize as you
said, you're a practicum teacher.
And I think that is very much how I readyour work too, and you put it together
in such a way where you can talk aboutthe questions and then the tools and
tech techniques and principles andideas to actually put things into place.
(09:43):
And I really appreciatethat about your book.
It just made for a very, it's avery practical approach to doing
online, which I think is part ofthis movement as you've talked about
over the last couple of decades.
Oh, thank you.
The one part of the book that I.
(10:05):
I have the page memorizedbecause I referred to it.
Yeah.
It's not very many things.
I'm not, this is not my typicalorientation, but I think I've
referred to it enough times.
I see the number 41, atleast in my hard copy book
Oh.
In my head when I think about it.
But I just wanted to read it andthen have you expound on this
and what you've maybe learned alittle bit since writing this book.
(10:28):
This is from 2014, which isnot that long ago, but there's
still been a couple things.
Yeah.
One or two things thathave happened since then.
Yeah.
But you wrote on page 41 you said that
"in another online class researchcollaborators, and I found that the
number of discussion posts studentsmade were the number one predictor
(10:50):
of their overall course grade.
even though these made up only atiny fraction of course points.
Based on this information I builtin more choices of discussion topics
and began contacting students whoweren't participating early on."
How has your kind of understanding ofthat either expanded or changed or are
(11:14):
you like me where this is somethingthat you've come back to over the years?
Michelle Miller (11:19):
Oh, yes.
And I remember exactly what you're saying.
I mean, and, And this is one of thesethings that I think probably many of us
in this community also have experienced,maybe the first time or two and I think
that came out of the, out of one of myfirst iterations of an online, fully
online course that we realize, oh mygosh, there's basically, I guess you
(11:39):
would, you'd call it learning analyticsbut our evidence of student activity
realizing, oh, wow, it's no longer abasically uneducated, guess what the heck
is going on in the back row or over there.
Or has this person even been to class?
We know, or we can know.
And so in really delving intosome of those numbers, as a social
(12:01):
scientist too, I'm like, oh, it is.
This is fantastic data.
I love it.
So that data's our lovelanguage in social sciences.
So we look at that and it was surprising.
And now that I think back at ittoo it, it also ties into something
we might circle back to later.
We'll see this issue of studentmotivation and engagement and
decoupling that from points and grades.
(12:24):
Boy, is that a big conversation too.
So maybe there was a little glimmerof that, of me saying, oh, wait a
minute, there's not like a one-to-onecorrespondence between the percentage
in the syllabus allocated to your finalgrade and your actual level of engagement?
Who knew?
So those are some things, when Ithink back to that's what I would
look at it now and say, yeah.
(12:45):
And we realized again in this very verybeginning, nascent ability to look at
what students do it on online courses
to say, what do studentseven do when they come in?
We, I was realizing that, entirelyoutside of any design of mine, in that
particular course, the discussion postwith the discussion board students, they
(13:09):
were coming in and checking on them.
And that's what theywould do first to ease in.
And I then I could look at that from myperspective and say, oh, wait a minute.
If that were me, then I,yeah, I might do that too.
Instead of like, "I'm gonna goand do the test for today in the
first five seconds I'm logged on."
I might poke around in discussionsand see what folks have put down.
Mm-hmm.
So, So that is true.
(13:30):
But I do think that today especiallyof our students who've been through
a few of these online coursesthere's definitely not a novelty
factor in online discussion anymore.
That, that has been long gone.
And I think that there is a littlebit of fatigue from them and from
us with the post one, reply to two.
So I definitely think ways of shakingup discussions, ways of backing up and
(13:55):
saying, okay, what is the purpose of this?
Which no doubt in one of thoseearly courses, I probably, I was
like, oh, okay, here's a tool.
I'll do that cuz I'm,that's what you do, right?
I'll just focus on coming upwith some neat creative choices
of these as it talks about.
And I did expand those and I'm, Ithink that they were more a, they were
more of a social or humanizing purposethan a, we are going to have a debate.
(14:19):
We are going to discuss a concept.
So that's always been a little differentin how I've used them, and I definitely
deal with them in some different ways now.
Now, when I'm teaching a facultyprofessional development workshop
online for example I teach, I, I helpfacilitate some that are very short.
They're like a week.
And those very now traditional waysof looking at discussions are not bad.
(14:42):
Just to say, okay, here'swhat I want you to discuss.
Present this right, and then readover at least two other people's
posts and say something and reply.
So it's not like that hasno function whatsoever.
But there are lots of differentways, and this is where the
creativity is starting to blossom.
And where our students, when theyclick in, maybe they stop and realize,
(15:03):
oh, wait a minute, the, this is gonnabe something a little bit different.
John Nash (15:06):
It's a challenge to assess these discussion posts sometime I
think instructors feel challengedto figure out how to assess them.
I had that experience myself,and it was a field of dreams.
We built it and nobody came.
And and nothing reallyinteresting happened.
So I think that's was, it's usefulto be able to think about that.
And then when you have such asituation where participation starts
(15:30):
to tell you more about overalllearning, that's a good feeling.
Michelle Miller (15:34):
Oh yes.
I completely, yeah.
So it's like it can give us thiswonderful window, but it's true.
If we're sitting there with rubrics andword counts and what I've been putting out
there recently is you can accidentally,you can create some pretty perverse
incentives for students to type a lotof words and not have a lot of concepts.
So I think again, there's aplace for that depending on.
(15:57):
There probably are some courseswhere okay, I want a very put
together factual thing thatresponds in some particular way.
When I use them and really this goesback a ways, I have tended to use them
in I guess context that are more, there'shardly any right or wrong answers and
good faith answers are full credit to me.
(16:19):
And I, in case your podcast listenersare falling off their chairs
here and saying, how can that be?
I am teaching psychology, right?
And especially in something like anintroduction to psychology course
or a cognitive psychology course,which tends to be a little bit
unapproachable for some students.
I frequently, what I'm doing, whetherit's a face-to-face or an online class,
is saying, okay, you just learned aboutthis hypothetical theoretical concept.
(16:44):
Let's talk about how you've seen thisplay out in your life or with students.
Students love to talk about theirfavorite media so including podcasts.
So I'll say, Hey, have you seen an isthere an example from a podcast you
listen to, or a show you watch andyou're really passionate about, or a
movie series that you're a big fan of?
So that is, yeah, as long as they'regetting in there and saying, oh yeah,
(17:09):
this completely happened in this show.
Or oh, I was talking to my niecethe other day and babysitting
and this totally happened.
Those kinds of moments I don't,yeah, I don't really sweat a
whole lot of the assessment.
Now.
It means you that, that's why I talkeda lot about choice there too, because I.
In psychology courses.
Yeah, you are talking about some ofcourse sensitive issues, and so you wanna
(17:33):
give people a little bit of opportunityto say, yeah, I'm gonna steer clear
of that, that's a sore subject withme, I'm gonna steer clear of that.
But there's ways to do thator recently too, my graduate
seminar, here's how we use them.
And they work brilliantly for this.
We will sometimes have guest speakersin my teaching practicum course, and
one of the pre-assignment for this issomething that I want my students to
(17:56):
get in the habit of as professionals,which is go Google this person
and find some interesting thing.
You know, coming to speak with us.
Oh, wow.
Tell us about them.
And so in the discussionyou post some facts now.
The twist is you can't post a factthat somebody else has already posted.
So if they're writing about me and say,oh, she wrote a book called Mines Online,
you can't have 20 people say that.
(18:17):
So you have to read all what'scome, and then if you're late to the
game, you're gonna have to dig upsome more obscure stuff about me.
So there's lots of other ways besidesthat traditional one, which I think you're
alluding to, or you're sitting with therubric and going, I don't even know.
John Nash (18:33):
Yeah.
I, and at the risk of listenerssaying all they have is a
humanizing online education hammer.
And so everything theguest says is a nail.
You're, it does sound like the, whatyou've built is discussions, or you're
recommending that discussions centernot on the arcane or a application
of the facts but rather a dialogue onhow it applies to the learner's lives,
(18:58):
and thereby creating community andcreating and humanizing the process and
then getting to outcomes nonetheless.
Is that fair?
Michelle Miller (19:07):
Yeah.
Yes.
I think I, I think so.
And that is, that is animportant connection I think
in our idealistic world.
We are getting to know each otherin discussion forums, perhaps in
echoes of almost the early internet.
And what kind of preceded socialmedia with folks would say I've been
(19:27):
just in this discussion or posting,and there's individuals who I've
never met in person and never will,but I feel really close to them.
And when I, at the end of the day I'llprobably rush off to my computer and say,
oh, I can't wait to see what happenedwith thing that they were going through.
Or again, see so-and-so with theirgreat sense of humor, say what they
(19:48):
posted or have this passionate debate.
That's what we want.
Getting there as a challenge.
But that's the ideal.
Jason Johnston (19:55):
Yeah, and I've had these conversations with faculty members
or administrators frustrated becausestudents often are frustrated with the
text based and especially as you said,post once, respond twice kind of thing.
And I think they're new tools outthere that we've been talking about
that maybe help a little bit inthis way, but I often throw it back
and say what are you trying to do?
(20:16):
And if you are truly trying to create aconversation, I know I don't like to be
graded on my conversations with somebody.
You know, if I was having a, sittingdown having a coffee with somebody Yeah.
And I felt you know, there'ssomebody with a grade book out saying
that was a, that wasn't a greatsentence, you know, kind of thing.
I don't think I would feel veryfree about the conversation.
(20:37):
I don't think it would just rollforward feeling like everything
is gonna be put to the test.
Of this kind of particular litmus testthat it has to be this particular way.
Now at the same time, I thinkthere are, there's a place for
essentially doing assignments thatare open for everybody to see.
And that's what some discussion postsare more so, less about humanizing,
(20:59):
more about creating an assignment thatother peers can respond to and perhaps
give some challenge back to and so on.
But you just have to partly just figureout what are you trying to achieve here?
And I think our online courses needto remember that just because it's
a discussion post format doesn'tmean it is crafted in a way to
(21:20):
really help discussion happen.
Michelle Miller (21:25):
Yeah, that's just so well put.
And what an amazing analogy of, yeah,so we're sitting in that proverbial
coffee shop, having some incredible,trying to have a good, deep discussion.
And I'm the teacher, I have thisunderstanding, and you're the
student, and here's a person who'sgot the checklist running down.
I'm like I think youneeded a semicolon there.
(21:45):
That, that is terrible.
But I think what we're converging onhere too is, of course, creativity,
but I come back a lot to something verysimilar to the concept of affordances.
Instead of discussion does this,and here's the way to do it.
Or you have to have it or not have it.
What does discussionelicit as an interaction?
(22:08):
What does it support?
What does it support easily?
What does it not support so easily?
And yeah, you're right thatthe technology itself doesn't
dictate post ones reply to two.
But for anything you want to be an openassignment for other students to see,
to unfold in an incremental fashion,to be text-based and to be asynchronous
(22:29):
so that you can think about, it can bealmost like a text conversation, but
usually it's a type of interaction wherewe sit and we compose our thoughts.
So yeah.
That's how I think about that.
Jason Johnston (22:40):
Before we Run outta time here.
I did want to talk a little bitabout your other book, your more
most recent book that we've been thatJohn referenced earlier, and just to
focus in on that a little bit more.
A couple of quotes out of that Ithought were interesting just on
the front end, this gives a bit of asummary of the book, which you stated
(23:01):
as the questions at the core of thisbook, remembering and forgetting.
"Does technology enhance memory and byextension all of our other cognitive
capabilities that depend on memoryor does technology erode memory,
making us dependent and getting inthe way of creating new memories."
(23:23):
And then you do an excellent jobwalking through this in various ways.
I think you take such a, I feel likesuch a moderate, cool headed approach
to technology, which I appreciate.
You are neither a pie in the sky kindof person, like it's the best, it's
gonna save us from everything, nor areyou the doomsayer, walking around with
(23:44):
your, sandwich board, telling peoplethat this is gonna be the end of us all.
Somewhere in the middle of thosetwo I think we wanna be in terms
of our conversations and it feelslike you are in terms of your books.
But I am curious about this because oh,and there's this other quote that you're
actually quoting Steve Pinker, which said.
(24:05):
"New forms of media havealways caused moral panics.
The printing press, newspapers,paperbacks, and television were all
once announced as threats to theirconsumer's brain power and moral fiber."
brings us to, having this conversation,at least at my university, saying, what
(24:26):
in the world are we gonna do with ai?
Is this the end of us all?
Can we leverage this?
Various conversations in between?
I just curious what you think inyour book as far as I could tell
you, you had one mention of ai,which is on the very first page.
What would you, if you were to writeanother chapter outta this book?
It's an excellent book, but.
(24:47):
Given where we are today in 2023.
Thinking about ai, would you stilltake a moderate kind of approach to it?
Do you, would you see AI as an amplifierto our abilities in education, or is it
weighing into the threats a little bit
Michelle Miller (25:04):
more?
Right.
Okay.
And I, that's, thank you so much.
Just a little question for you.
No, yeah.
Thanks so much for the characterization.
I do love it.
Sandwich board.
I do walk down the middle of theline and as far as anywhere where
I feel like, oh, I would go backand revise that, or where I really
(25:24):
significantly kinda changed some of myviews over the years, if not a change.
A strengthening of the position that,that social media is really different.
So I would change, socialmedia was the previous " oh
my gosh, this is blowing up."
And there too, based on the, onthe research it, it's, it's a whole
different kettle of fish in a wayand operates on some of its own
(25:44):
principles and has some of its ownimpacts in not all super positive ones.
But getting back to this AI thing, yeah,you could tell that I do take a somewhat
of a long view of these things and wedo, we look back at, I'm of the Sesame
Street generation and Sesame Streetwas definitely, was gonna scramble our
(26:04):
brain and do all these bad things to us.
And so I kinda, I look at anything Ihear now and go yeah, that was, that was
supposed to be true of television, whichwas also quite habit forming and had
a lot of negatives and downsides that.
Were never anticipated.
It is funny that we are at this pointtoo, with chat, G P t I almost, harken
back again to my seventies childhood,I think about how when computers
(26:26):
themselves started to become part ofthe everyday landscape for people.
And there were, we look at, we look backat it now and it's so laughable, but there
were TV shows and books for kids and soon just saying what are these things?
Can they, do they, are they thinking?
Do they have personalities?
How are they different than robots?
And I think when you're generatingall of those narratives in your
(26:48):
popular culture, you're definitelywrestling with what does it all mean?
And it's also tempting to me to bea little blase about it too, as a
cognitive scientist, because, grantednot at all in the form you see today,
but when I was in grad school, we werelooking at neural networks to do things.
And we said, yeah this will be reallypractical eventually for doing more
(27:13):
complex, more human-like solvinga problems and things like that.
But we were looking at how netneural networks work to just to
address some of these things.
So I, I say it, but we didclearly hit a tipping point.
I almost would liken it to things likeemail or social media, those kind of
perked along at this really low levelfor a long time until they hit a certain
(27:37):
point of power and usability to where weall said, oh my gosh, we have to change.
We have to change everything.
So we're looking at it right now and Ido hope to be kinda revisiting a lot of
these core questions in for minds online.
I wanna have that sort of perspectiveand consciousness that it's new,
but it's also not in, in some ways.
(27:59):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, Let's not completely runaway with, "it'll be able to
do everything human beings do."
I think 30 minutes worth ofinteraction with it in reality
disabuses most of us at that notion.
But I, I think too it gives useven more reason to start to build
more flexibility into our courses.
I think I've beenwriting a lot about that.
(28:21):
If we do see it through thatlens of it's a cheating tool.
It's something that students can just runto when they're trying to grapple with
something and develop their own skills.
We might ask and we might say, you know,what really increases the likelihood
that will happen is rigid deadlinesand a lack of a student-centered
purpose in a course where it'sabout you need to do this for me.
(28:42):
Yes.
Instead of why are, what do youwanna get out of this course?
And whatever you're here to get outof this course so that you can go
on and succeed in the future mightnot be compatible with you relying
on a chat G P T or something.
Something like that.
As in a lot of things, I'm like, okay.
Take a breath, everybody.
(29:03):
Let's take a breath.
But let's also really acknowledgethat yes, we finally are to the point
where relatively natural human-likecommunication in visual and text
forms is becoming more accessible.
John Nash (29:19):
I wonder if I could ask you a little bit about something that
my colleagues in the P 12 space havebeen worried about for a while, who
are interested in school technologyleadership, thinking about ways in which
we can think, you know, and measured soberways about the ways in which technology
can be integrated into the curriculumand even in post-secondary but certainly
this matter of whether phones should bein classrooms, these handheld computers
(29:43):
that are actually quite powerful, butcould be used in an interesting way.
And you talk a little bit in thefirst couple of chapters in actually
in what chapter one, what technologydoes to us and for us and how this
the notion of the brain gettingrewired gets so much traction and
particularly amongst naysayers of useof phones in classrooms and the media
(30:06):
that's in put in front of children.
Could you talk a little bit about thebrain rewiring notion and why it gets
so much traction and maybe what are somebetter ways to look at technology and
the mind, especially as my P 12 sistersand brothers start to talk to parents
and other pundits about this space?
Michelle Miller (30:23):
Right.
Boy, that's, that is a big one.
And I, and that's really greatthat you zeroed in on that.
I swear something just pings in my ownbrain, every time I run across that
trope of it's doing something to you.
And there's also kinda, I think, arelated spinoff of tropes that the
look at digital interactions as asort of a pollutant or contaminant
or, you're consuming something and youdon't realize what it's doing to you.
(30:45):
And it's an, it is an important question.
But yes, of course cognitivepsychologists, brain scientists,
we say, "yeah, everythingis rewiring your brains."
Two in particular that I've writtenabout as counter examples are reading.
That really, I've seen the brain scansof people who are reading, there are
(31:05):
brain areas that are hitched up toother brain areas that never, never
would've, I mean, you're just creatingthese new super highways between
areas that formally were more, moreroundabout as far as the connections.
And you can't undo it.
Very easily.
At least once you've learnedto read you can't not read.
It is a big thing learning to drive a car.
(31:27):
How many, yeah, how manyhours do we spend on that?
Yeah.
Right.
And that, so it is, I do really think weought to get out the word that cannot,
just because something might impact yourbrain doesn't mean that it's nefarious.
You know, I talk about that onestudy too that went around years
back showing oh, and people backwhen they could study people who were
(31:50):
net naive who didn't use computers.
And we teach 'em how to use asearch engine and scan their brains
and their brains are different.
It's okay alright, yeah.
Teach them to jump rope and theirbrains are gonna be different.
What is special here?
So there is that.
Better ways to think about it.
I do think or that it was social mediaand with applications and uses that are
(32:14):
engineered to take you off of whateveryou were doing and go keep doing them.
It's important for adults inthis society to learn how to
spot that and cope with it.
And when I'm talking to collegestudents, I'm a very big advocate
of, "okay, you know, own yourtechnology, not the other way around.
(32:35):
And what is your strategy going tobe to make sure, especially if you
are a person like me who loves theirtech, how are you gonna make sure
that you're not going to miss out onthings in your college education?"
And college students areperfectly capable and often tell
me about strategies they have.
For example, going on a vacationtogether, going on the big senior
trip and agreeing not to be ontheir phones or posting selfies.
(32:57):
So that conscious determinationI think is important.
Now, when we get into younger kids now,I always, and I always say too, my, my
specialty and my expertise is with adults.
So I, I wanna be sure not tooverstep my actual expertise.
But I don't think that, and I'm notgonna list an age or anything like
that, but I think we all know that.
Yes.
When you have a lower level ofmaturity anywhere from being a
(33:20):
preschooler to a younger teenager,do you have the ability to do that?
If I have difficulty putting my phonedown because I notice some, I pick it
up for one reason and I'm spirited away.
If I have trouble with that, thensomebody who's 10 is definitely
gonna have trouble with that.
So I do think that external management of,okay, we don't have our phones at school.
(33:43):
Right.
Right.
Or we turn our phones off when,or we collect the phones at night.
That's another big issueis of course, sleep.
And so on.
That makes a huge amount of sense.
So we need to develop thoseskills for management.
But at the earlier age, we, I thinknot leaving it to chance is important.
(34:03):
And really with my college students,we question a lot too of just wow.
So as the assumption that I can't evenpark my electric car now without my
phone or I, you know, it's for so long.
We're like, okay, you kids putout down all your phones also.
You need this to log into to school.
You're gonna need it to park.
I need it, you're gonna needit to order your food at lunch.
(34:26):
All of these incursions, theymay be good, bad, or neutral.
But we can't just sit andaccept them happening to us.
We need to be drivers of that.
John Nash (34:36):
So it sounds like it's really a matter of context with youth and
perhaps those caregivers around them arethoughtful about when this is good to use
and when it may not, because the, whetheror not my brain is being rewired, which
it is or is not that's a different matterfrom whether it's impeding me from getting
to sleep or other practical matters,I think is what I hear you saying.
(34:57):
Yeah.
And
Michelle Miller (34:58):
yeah.
Yeah.
And with kids especially too, and thiswas true of television Definitely.
Yeah.
And our children is theissue of replacement.
And to degree as well with adults,not so much, oh, the phone is doing
something to me, but what am I notdoing because I'm on the phone?
Yeah.
And how can I find those intersections?
I might share that.
I, I follow a hobby, a very excitinghobby of knitting, which actually has
(35:22):
a lot of connections to the technologyand was really revived by being able to
search out certain things online and docertain things we couldn't do before.
But I realized that I was relying on itto store my patterns, to store the, to
count my stitches and do all these things.
And I recently went throughand consciously said, no, I'm
gonna take all of this offline.
I'm gonna make it so I don'thave to have my phone open in
(35:44):
order to work on my sweater.
These are now gonna betwo separate things.
And so that's a small thing.
But that's an example of, again,that the very practical, just,
you know, don't panic, but.
Let's look at what the trade-offs are.
And for younger children, thosetrade-offs get very serious when we're
talking about things like physicalactivity, real-time interaction with
peers, and all that important stuff.
(36:05):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jason Johnston (36:07):
Well, your, Your recent book has a good healthy dose
of cognitive myth debunking, whichI appreciate as well as I think
some practical mindedness to it.
So, um, Really appreciate that.
When you were talking earlier about takinga breath around ai I, I thought of this
idea that we could do, for people thatare listening, we could have a mindful
(36:31):
moment when it comes to technology.
And I feel like that's what yourwriting's about a little bit.
Taking a mindful moment, and we couldsay something like even right now, we
could take a moment and say, breathein your concerns about AI taking
over our educational institutions.
Now, let them all go.
Or you could breathe in, concernthat technology is rewiring
(36:53):
the minds of our youth now.
Let that go.
Yes.
So it's a, it is some, you know, if youever wanna use any of that in any of
your workshops now that's it's you'refree to move forward and those listening
right now, you could just re-listento that part over and over again.
Hold pause as long as you need to breathethese things in and then let them go.
(37:16):
Yeah.
Oh,
Michelle Miller (37:18):
I think you really captured the spirit of it.
Thanks.
I feel better already.
Jason Johnston (37:23):
Okay.
Good.
Good.
So do I.
This has been a reallywonderful conversation.
It has and Michelle reallyappreciate you taking the time.
How can people connect with you?
After this podcast, after listening,what should they be reading?
Michelle Miller (37:37):
Nice that you mentioned reading.
One of my projects this year, whichkicked off in January is what as
we often do is I started a Substackand I, it's part of the drama.
I, I quit Twitter a year ago.
I kind of, mm-hmm.
saw which way the wind wasblowing and decided this wasn't
serving my purposes anymore.
(37:58):
So it made one of those mindful choices.
Mm-hmm.
And uh, at the same time got interestedin, in Substack along with a lot
of other academics and fascinatingfolks who write in the space.
Now, I don't I don't always useit uh, the identical way they do.
But yes, if they find my ck that Iusually, every few weeks I send some
things out and usually the focusis on research that's like they say
(38:21):
roughly about a year old or less.
I really do write about what I'mreading, and it's been a really
good way to focus me, Frankly to,to say what is important out there?
And that is, I'm getting back to myroots of what I think the value is
that I provide to my fellow academicssometimes, which is okay, there's so much
the research that comes out providingthese sort of capsule summaries and
(38:45):
talking a little bit more about what'sthe implications for our practice.
So that's, you can find on Substack andI also um, I, I do, I guess, lack of a
better word blog post from time to time.
I've I blog in frequently, especiallywhen I have a book out, but sometimes
the spirit moves me, so I'll sometimes bewriting more of a really an opinion piece.
And so there was one recently onmotivation and cognition, which
(39:09):
is a perpetual favorite of mineto really wrestle with uh, well,
uh, thing why I did leave Twitterfor those who are super curious.
So that's a big way you can find me.
I have a website.
I, there's not a whole lot of actionthere, but it is the one-stop shop where
you can see things like speaking topics.
I love to speak about the role ofmemory in learning, for example and
(39:31):
the role of motivation, all that stuff.
And catch any blog posts thatI might put up in that way.
So it's Michelle Miller phd.com andLinkedIn because I'm using Twitter for
professional or was using Twitter just forprofessional communications, I thought,
you know what, let me just move all thisover so you can also find me on link.
LinkedIn and follow me for things thatI love to repost, that I see articles
(39:54):
that are out there and yet another wayto discover when I do write something
like a, or an article that comes outand some mainstream publication.
Jason Johnston (40:03):
Yeah.
And we've really been enjoying LinkedInas a professional community of late.
So that's been a good space for us,which is actually the, one of the
places that we connected, I guessmore personally is with our current
podcast and connecting with that, so.
Well that's great.
And we'll put your website, your sub.
(40:23):
Link your books in our show notes, sothose listening, please check out our
show notes and check all those as wellas check out anytime online learning
podcast.com has all of our episodesand all of our notes there, as well
as the link to our LinkedIn community.
So I'd love to hear from you andsee what you think about all the
things that we've talked about today.
(40:44):
Right, John?
John Nash (40:44):
Michelle I'm, I'm very concerned uh, for you and your
knitting because of all the bevy ofresearch that's out there about how
it's rewiring your brain negatively.
Michelle Miller (40:55):
Oh, definitely.
Right.
You think I've spent a lotof time on social media.
I spent a lot of time making sweaters,
Jason Johnston (41:02):
and we were obsessed.
I heard about some kids who uh,all, all they, when they looked at
other people, although they couldsee were two knitting needles.
Michelle Miller (41:14):
Is that a raglin?
Yeah.
How's the neck as the neckband attached?
Yeah.
So yeah, that was a little off thecuff, but definitely an illustration.
Jason Johnston (41:25):
It's so great to talk to you.
Thank you so much for taking Thank you.
All in touch.
Yeah, thank you so much.
John Nash (41:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
Really looking forward to continuing theconversation online as we think about
these things we've talked about todaywith you, michelle, thank you so much.
Michelle Miller (41:40):
My pleasure.
Looking forward to connecting andcontinuing the conversation as well.
Yep.
Jason Johnston (41:45):
Thank you.
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