Ep.194: 'Communication Skills: When To Sit In The Mud' with special guest Ben Whybrow

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
back into soft tissue therapy.
Music.
And we're live. Hey people, how are you doing? Welcome to the Sports Therapy Association podcast,

(00:23):
episode 194, 94, entitled Communication Skills,
When to Sit in the Mud, with my special guest, Ben Wybrow, a specialist physiotherapist
in an NHS pain clinic and clinical communication skills facilitator at Norwich Medical School.
My name is Matt Phillips. In case you don't recognise the voice,
I'm the creator of UncheckedLife.com.

(00:43):
And as always, this episode is being recorded live on a Tuesday at eight o'clock
on the STA YouTube channel and Facebook page.
So if you are listening to the podcast and you fancy joining us for one of the
live recordings so you can ask questions directly to the guests or just hang
out with like-minded soft tissue therapists, then all you have to do is join
us on a Tuesday at eight o'clock on YouTube or Facebook.

(01:07):
Before we start this week's episode, have you had a chance into last week's
episode, episode 193, which was entitled Concussions, Causes,
Risks and Treatment with special guest Nicola Hunt, Director of PhysioCare Rehab.
In this episode, we unravel some huge misconceptions around concussion,
and it contains key information about causes, dangers and treatment.

(01:29):
It's a fantastic episode, I always say that, but I do encourage you to listen
to it, particularly, of course, if you do deal with people who could be suffering from concussion.
And it's available, as always, on all popular podcast apps, as well as YouTube. to you.
And if you listen to it, you will discover that there is an STA discount code
available for Nicola Hunt's concussion courses, which are both online and face-to-face.

(01:53):
For all details, you do need to be an STA member, but hey, that's another reason,
reason 236B for becoming an STA member.
If you check it out on the STA members page, then all details of that discount
code will be found there.
If you have joined us live, I'm just going to give a few little hellos to people who have joined us.
I can bring your question and name up onto the screen, which is one of the reasons for joining live.

(02:17):
For example, Amanda has walked to the door and Amanda says, hi,
everyone. Hi, Amanda. Thanks so much for joining us.
It's a good networking opportunity not to make it all sound too businesslike,
but it does mean you can bring up your company logo maybe and also meet other
people who might be in your area.
It's a great way of sharing education and maybe meeting up with people.
Cecily Hislop has just walked through the door. The sun is out,

(02:37):
so I'm just a tad too excited.
Cecily, it's 8.05 in the evening and the sun's still out. What part of the world are you in, Cecily?
Is this your mind? I need some of what you've been drinking in that case.
But thanks for joining us. Right, on with tonight's episode. So episode 195.
Like I say, my guest, Ben Wybrow, recently wrote a particularly well-received

(02:59):
article entitled, Sit in the Mud.
Listen acknowledge empathize which
appeared in February's edition of MSK Mag which is
an online and paper magazine produced by our friends at Physio Matters at the
end of this podcast we will be revealing a chance for one lucky listener to
win three months of free full subscription to MSK Mag so be sure to listen out

(03:25):
for that that will be open for anybody who listens to this podcast.
And basically a winner will be picked out by
my guest next week which is going to be the
23rd of april according to my maths hopefully i'm
right so if you listen to the podcast and it's before the 23rd of april
you can still do what i say at the end of this podcast right

(03:45):
people coming through the door just a few highs as well to
gary benson founder of the sds in the room today hey
gary how you doing nicola davis says good evening
from sunny cardiff why does it seem to be it's a
time warp going i'm looking out my window and it's like dark and
i've got owls out there so i'm not quite sure what's
happening in the south coast here but it's dark here um cecily

(04:06):
says she's in cornwall okay maybe it's i don't know i'm not sure what's happening
on now but i'm going to move on if you are some in the world where it's sunny
then good on you i'm happy for you he said right without further ado let's bring
up my guest for episode 194 for communication skills when to sit in the mud
with my special guest ben.

(04:27):
Music.
You're listening to the sports therapy association podcast evidence back soft tissue therapy,
hey hello how are you i'm fabulous how are you it's not it's not sunny where
i am i know i'm not sure i'm not sure what's going on here let me let me ask

(04:48):
somebody who's reliable and a good source of information. Sarah Clackworthy, fantastic.
Sarah, could you explain what it looks like outside your window?
Because I think there's a bit of a conspiracy thing going on here.
You feel like everywhere is beautiful and there's just Independence Day is happening here in.
Not so sunny lansing sarah what's it like where you are anyway ben
thanks so much for joining us really appreciate it well thank you matt maybe something
about southwest england and wales that they've got better sun than

(05:10):
we do no idea well wales deserves some way
of being better than us anyway where are
you in cambridge are you cambridge that's right yeah so a bit southish
not as south as you are but we uh
certainly we've had a great weekend of weather
and then past two days have been a bit more variable in
the weather's emotions this is so English isn't it for international

(05:32):
listeners it's true it's not a myth we do spend a lot of time just chatting
about the weather that's what we do it's very exciting right so Ben I'm really
excited to have you along thank you so much like I said we'll talk about that
article shortly but I introduced you as somebody who's a specialist in pain
and you work in a NHS pain clinic and a clinic and communication skills,

(05:52):
facilitator at Norwich Medical School could you tell us a little bit about how you got there your
history and how you arrived to where you are today sure thank you
so I graduated almost 10 years ago now
in a few months and as a physio from
heart university of Hertfordshire went classic band five rotations and I'll
be honest with you Matt if you had told me as a student that I would be working

(06:13):
MSK or especially in pain I would have told you where to go with your opinion
because I could have pictured my career in an ICU somewhere putting tubes down
people and all the fun things So.
But by fate or the universe, whatever it is, I got put on a musculoskeletal
rotation first and loved it.

(06:34):
It was so nice to be in control.
And just when you start out in physio career.
You have something i call band five life where the case is pretty much half.
Post fractures or post surgery something and these
patients are you realize later on they're going to get better just
job is to make sure they get better and then you have the other simple things

(06:57):
like a knee away and a back pain and stuff like that very simple things that
again should get better but i thought you know this is nice but i would go back
into my go back to the wards where i had my visions as a student didn't like
it i actually realized msk was for me and i spent
pretty much all my time in msk since i've five years almost now in a pain clinic i just.

(07:19):
Found that the people and as we might come on to people in a pain clinic,
have a lot more as i say biopsychosocial needs it's a big word to use on tuesday
evening but there's a lot more variables up in the air with their life i just
found it a bit more exciting.
And then i realized as i was going through that obviously the communication skills are very

(07:39):
important in a pain world and where
i work in cambridge i have the university
attached to it and i had
no idea this thing existed when i was training or quite
working up to this point there are things called communication skills
facilitators which it turns out has been
a thing for over 20 years where basically mostly dot

(08:00):
x or doctors or okay a few nurses physios
dietitians etc will go into medical school
and they facilitate those medical students learning
about communication skills i know that
a medical student will get at least at
uea something like 60 hours of communication

(08:21):
skills teaching across those years which
is well i'll be honest with you i got none in
my physio degree because they realize it's
so important and i just really fell
in love with it and I realised this is great for the students but
where's this for those that are sort of qualified and
hence why I've then started putting things that

(08:43):
we do in the teachings at universities but now available to everyone because
I think they know it's important as a student but from my experience and I think
the experience of many other people is when you graduate and you've been working
for those three four five plus years that you truly realise how important it is because.
And I just fell in love with it. And here we are 10 years later.

(09:08):
I don't think I could go back to MSK or a different part of physio now.
Fantastic. It's interesting. I'm sitting here and I'm hearing you create quite
a wide wall, the separation between MSK and pain clinic.
And I'm wondering whether that is, should it be such a big wall?

(09:29):
Isn't part of the problems in msk is that they're not doing
some of the stuff that they do in pain clinic or i think
that i may have may have said it
i haven't said it very well but certainly
yes there is a better bridge between the two there
is a lot more for therapists to
learn about and know about persistent pain

(09:50):
management than they used to be it was always a case of the pain
clinic is this mystical place that exists somewhere patients
go to and you never see them again but now we
the physios myself my colleagues in the pain clinic work in
the same department as the msk physio and i
think there should be a lot of interlinking and therapists i think it is
becoming much more well talked about and

(10:11):
known over the past five years ten years something
like that where this idea of pain management
is becoming much more integrated and i
say that that because the classic back
pain patient you know the one who's got fearful of movement they've had the
scan and they've got the degenerative findings right and they're worried about

(10:32):
that you know looking for the trying to get into the drugs and all the passive
treatment and not trying to be at we don't see many of those these days in our
pain clinic because i think they're,
therapists be it msk physios sports therapists whoever are managing a lot better on the hole.
These people don't come, we don't see much of that anymore.

(10:55):
What we get a lot of these days is widespread pain, inflammatory conditions or fibromyalgia.
And there's more psychological distress, not just related to the pain,
but maybe related to other things as well in life.
And we have a lot more of that and just trying to juggle more pieces in the air.

(11:17):
But I certainly feel that it's the management of pain and the skills that come
with it has been certainly better integrated among the MSK therapies,
because those types of patients that used to come through aren't coming through as much anymore.
Interesting. OK, that's good. Right. OK, so for people who aren't familiar with

(11:37):
your article, they'll still be looking at this advert for this episode and thinking,
sit in the mud, what the hell is he talking about?
So we should really explain.
Let's do a little bit of context for people who didn't see the article,
because I think it is still behind a paywall for MSK Mag. I don't know. I mean.
I get MSK Mag, but let's give people a little bit of context.

(12:00):
So I'll bring this up on the screen basically what we're talking about people is MSK
Mag and this isn't a an advert for it you can get it you don't
have to get it it's totally up to you but it's brought to you by the
Physiomatters team which you might be familiar with the Physiomatters podcast
which was started by Jack Chu and Jack March is involved with Jim March depending
on what day you talk to him on and there's a lovely picture here on the screen

(12:22):
of the team together and they've now moved interestingly back to the magazine
format which is available online
and as a paper version as well
it's a real throwback to magazines i used to write in
about 10 years ago this looks like the old running magazines you used
to read on wh smith i quite like it i got one of
the magazine copies through and you know what maybe just
i'm getting older but i love just flicking through the magazines and folding

(12:45):
pages down and kind of it's lovely maybe it's just a throwback but they've decided
that that's the format they want to do but it's available still online and this
is where one of the articles which this particular one i read online i think
it was February wasn't it in the edition by Ben appeared sit in the mud.
Like I say, I saw it straight away and just fell in love with it because it
just summed up something we've talked about a lot on this show about not rushing in to fix people.

(13:12):
And we'll talk about this in a second. It's very much.
It used a lovely analogy where sometimes the person who comes to visit you and
they will put as much better than me. I'm just summing it up because we have
talked about it on the show.
Sometimes the person who comes to see you doesn't want you to fix them.
Them okay that's really and if they don't want you to
fix them then you know what you're probably not going to be able to despite
how amazing you think your manipulations or whatever you're doing is they just

(13:34):
want they need somebody to talk to and that's what the analogy of to sit in
the mud with them is and that might sound easier said than done and this article
kind of talks about that so,
that's probably a terrible description of what this article set out to do but
ben was that kind the idea behind it and that gives you a chance yeah there

(13:55):
will be situations in your clinic where,
patients you're they're coming to see you for a problem i'll tell you a story
at some some disability a lady i've been seeing for her widespread pain she
has a plan in place i'm seeing her for her third follow-up or something like
that comes in through the doors sits down,
already kind of doing that you know when people are starting to cry with these

(14:16):
the lips kind of starting to quiver and she says i'm sorry my past two weeks
have been terrible my husband's had an affair.
Now, in that situation, she's not expecting me to go around,
turn up and go, well, let me make that better for you.
OK, because know what? I'm going to make an assumption here.

(14:37):
OK, if someone's come in, they've disclosed that to their musculoskeletal therapist,
they're probably not expecting you to sit there and solve that problem because
that's a problem that's done. You can't solve that.
OK, but you can listen, sympathize and empathize.
As you've got on your screen there and they that you know you can't fix that but you can,

(15:05):
be that person that they as you just said there matt can talk
to you and that's what we did she came in she said that to me starts to
cry and gave her space a simple question
is what happened what's this you know you don't need to ask how do you feel
because you can see it in them right tears coming down someone's face they're
looking at the floor they're hunched over you don't need that question you can

(15:28):
see it in them and what happened and then.
They'll divulge more information how can i help because this has taken over their life,
right now that she said it herself right this is
just i can't we had plans in place she
has a little routine how can i do it that's gone
out the window right because her life's

(15:50):
just being flipped upside down like the story in the articles about
i think i called it it's a real life story i changed the
details for some confidentiality but
the story is true you know someone's partner passed away suddenly again they
know that you can't fix or reverse what's happened right they're there for a

(16:11):
separate reason and they know that this has taken over their life and again
Again, you can't can't fix,
but you can be the person they can talk to because they may not have had that chance by this lady.
Both situations actually they hasn't really
had anyone to properly open up to they had

(16:32):
family but they were having to be the carers for
the family members if that makes sense so they
in this case with children having to look after the
children while these situations were going on so they
then couldn't have the time to grieve or you
know go through that process like you would but simply

(16:52):
letting them do that and feeling
that they have support even knowing that you can't change
the situation they're in necessarily just having
someone they can talk to they get just get things out can
help someone move forwards and obviously there are places you can direct them
to help if needed various types of
psychological support if you feel it's if you and they feel it's

(17:14):
appropriate but sometimes just
being there when you can't fix is enough
and more probably sometimes more
than they expect in in these case in either these cases was there a another
underlying condition or suspected injury or something that was being kind of

(17:37):
associated with the pain they were feeling and this was amplifying it or why
did they originally come I mean, what were they trying to have fixed?
The one had inflammatory arthritis of some type. I can't remember exactly what type.
And the lady in the article, I think it's neck and arm pain.
Nothing particularly worrying on any scans, the kind of classic onset of pain.

(18:00):
There were other stresses in life and other issues with work and things that
have come on quite both quite.
Things you would see as a musculoskeletal therapist that may come through your
door with additional factors but then these things had just taken over and then
yes you say amplified the situation and made it harder to manage than already

(18:24):
difficult to manage situation,
people who come to see you have normally
been directed or referred to the pain clinic
because there's it's not working through kind
of like other conservative methods and stuff so maybe
they are already thinking you know there's
something going on here i need to see this kind of works

(18:45):
but professional advice so but i'm i'm presuming
that this could well happen if somebody with this same
situation goes on decides to go for a massage because their
lower back is hurting they might not even realize that that
pain could be being amplified by the divorce
they're going through all the issues they're having with their teenage daughters so
i guess this is where you you mentioned biopsychosocial in

(19:07):
the beginning and a lot of our listeners are familiar with that so is
what you're kind of saying you know although it's
one system living in you know different ecosystems this is where the psychosocial
factors could be playing a big part in their pain experience that's right spot
on it's never as many people have said it's never just bio it's It's never just

(19:29):
psycho. It's never just socialist.
And what influences at what times is variable, right?
And we were talking about this actually before we started that,
you know, that if you're going to see someone, you're going to give them a massage, they're lying down.
Someone can really just that relaxing they're going through can really actually help them calm.

(19:49):
And sometimes the emotions I've had people say to me, they've been for a massage
or something in the past, and then their emotions just come out. Right.
I'm not saying that's going to happen every time. I'm not saying it needs to,
but you know, that can happen.
And actually the easiest way, if you want
to kind of get to know those intricacies
just ask questions while the you

(20:12):
know it could be doesn't have to be a massage of course you could
be going for exercises with them you could be doing something
else with them but just open
questions of that start with what or how you know
how have you been coping with this what's this
effect happening in your life you know how how

(20:32):
how can we support you better and those
kind of things just open someone up they can't just answer
yes or no and you can roll with the answers can
really you know you've got you talk about this as well time with
them can really get to know someone and they may themselves think as they say
it oh i hadn't thought of that how actually what i'm going through at work Like

(20:57):
it isn't helping with my pain or that stress I'm getting with, I don't know.
Neighbor across the street or I'm not getting enough sleep.
People will pick up on it. You know, people, as they say it.
Because they say it they're more likely to then think oh you know what that maybe

(21:19):
that is applicable to me because they've come up with
it right we buy into ideas that we
come up with ourselves so if they hear
it and then you may have ideas
yourself so if they talk about sleep you may have advice on sleep or
you maybe you could direct them to someone for the psychological support you
have probably have contacts i'm sure we in

(21:39):
our clinic have an mdt so of you know
physio psychology ot and others we can
refer to so certainly you know being
in that where you are as a massage therapist for example you've got a right
opportunity there for someone really to relax and get out things they may not
have told anyone else before that's great that's really nice to hear coming

(22:02):
from you from a kind of pain specialist and also from a physio because you know massage.
Therapists do traditionally and we say this a lot but they do have a lot of
imposter syndrome where where they feel that, yeah, they can make someone feel good,
but they feel that all other, especially allied health professionals,
are kind of looking down going, oh, you're just giving them a rub and you're
not really that involved in proper serious kind of solving kind of pain experiences.

(22:25):
But based on what we're saying, when we consider the psychosocial effects on pain,
that time they're spending with you could play
a huge part in multidisciplinary care in relaxing
down the nervous system especially when we talk about behavior change that
person is not going to consider the sleep the lack

(22:46):
of sleep hygiene or the nutrition or the argument they're having
with their daughter or the divorce they're going through they're not going to solve those
they can't change their behavior those things until they relax a little bit
down so we're always kind of saying it's just nice coming from a specialist
mouth that massage can play because we all need confirmation of that is is tricky
for massage therapists well i'll say this this Matt if patients come in and.

(23:09):
Whether that's massage, whether it's manipulation or something else,
you know, we have, if they want to spend their money and go and do that once
a week, every other week on full knowledge that it's giving them short-term benefit,
that's allowing them to keep going with their life,
and they're happy and they're fine.
No problem. And you know what, actually, if that keeps their pain under control

(23:32):
and they don't need stronger pain relief,
opioids or strong anti-inflammatory actually stuff like that that can have significant
side effects or actually be detrimental long term you know what great yes there's
obviously a question about management with long-term pain but if someone wants
to spend their money and do that for we have no problem with it at all.

(23:54):
And you know what they may go through the
process of a pain clinic or physio or gp or
whoever and as we said earlier they may
go through that and if you're chatting to them in your residence it's massage manipulation
something else they may just if you
asked enough right questions come out with things that they
may not have told anyone else so far that

(24:16):
could be the key to then then managing that
situation a lot better so this
is where this is the kind of interesting caveat and the
important thing comes yes massage therapists can be really useful
as part of a recovery strategy
or part of multidisciplinary healthcare but old school
massage therapists and and by that i just mean

(24:37):
anyone who learned massage kind of like more than
eight years ago or is continuing to have
massage taught by an outdated kind of syllabus they
were told some they've seen as fit they still see themselves
as fixers so if they are telling their clients you know what i'm
going to massage this and put this in here i'm going to undo this scar tissue
which is causing your sensations i'm going to massage early upstairs because

(24:58):
that's causing the trauma tip that sort of thing if they're telling the patient
i'm going to fix you then we get into dangerous water don't we but if the massage
therapist is using this as an opportunity to give that patient some good.
Listening time active listening and then potentially a
little bit of support and maybe even education then
that could be really powerful which brings us on to listening skills

(25:21):
because there's a nice comment here which i think will be
a good caveat well first of all becky's has said something wonderful here
how privileged we are to be that person that our clients
can share these sensitive details with it is isn't it it kind
of sends shivers down your spine you must see it all the time when people open
up to you it is a privilege you know they're not
told anyone else and it's responsibility which

(25:41):
means how you apply to that person or when or if is
is serious you need to have training in it my wife goes why were they telling
you that what's that got to do with it and i think but you're becky is spot
on it is a pivot and actually okay people especially in persistent pain may
say things that make you go oh god what do i do with that,

(26:03):
But just, again, we said, just be in there. And if you know where to direct
them to for further help, great.
But if you don't, then a bunch of people you could ask or services you could
ask, I'd say, I've got this patient who said this with X need.
Who or where can they get help with this?
And the fact they're telling you, okay, they may, minority cases,

(26:27):
tell you something quite potentially quite dark or scary.
The fact they're telling you is a generally a
good thing because as you said there
matt they may not have told anyone before and it's
their way of saying they're not saying it with their words
but their action is saying maybe i'm willing to consider this this thing i've

(26:48):
hidden for the past 20 or however many years maybe i'm now willing to and i'll
talk to someone about this and they almost it was kind of testing you a little
bit we call it picking up on cues,
so giving another example recently a chap long-term back pain very i'm going
to be a bit stereotypical very masculine likes to get physically fit push through

(27:11):
it tons of passive and also really
high exercise right trying basically trying to out exercise his pain,
if i exercise enough i'll get there and we were just chatting yesterday or whenever
it was and And he says, you know, we'd be talking for at least 50 minutes.
He goes, occasionally I'm getting these feelings of anxiety where I'm sweating and shaking a bit.

(27:35):
And, you know, I don't know.
And I said, you know, talk to him about this. He goes, no.
And it was this little kind of, I could, at that point, I could have just gone,
right, well, anyway, let's go on to these exercises for this.
But we stayed on it. and it was the
first time he really told anyone or

(27:55):
if he had said it people were talking it in and it's
the first time you may get help
on something where really he needs the help and it
doesn't need me he actually needs someone else and it's almost like a little
they're giving you this little easter egg and they all call it cue and if you
can pick up on it and then act on it now in your case it may be this massage

(28:16):
let's say or doing exercise with them they may just come out with something
and if you can click it and go oh they've said this,
man and ask more questions about it again that could be the thing that really
opens the door to where really they that need that they've either not considered
or not wanted to consider,
and if you can help them open the door with them guide them through the door

(28:39):
to that it might talk about it could be talking therapy it could be something
it might be a change of work it may be moving house it may be something that
could be the thing again just keep an eye out for these
little cues and they will maybe really change someone's trajectory as where they're going.
Hey there matt phillips here sorry to interrupt the

(29:00):
podcast just 60 seconds to remind you that
if you're looking for beard grooming products there is
a sports therapy association discount code that will
get you 15 off at the brighton
beard company website the brighton beard company
dot co.uk yes i am biased what
with brighton being my hometown but the brighton beard

(29:21):
company really do offer an absolutely amazing selection
of luxurious beard balms and impeccably scented oils all handmade in small batches
with 100 natural ingredients their current spring collection for example contains
bergamot coriander thyme and lavender giving you a fresh and energizing essence
with both citrusy and peppery notes,

(29:43):
making it the perfect gift for you, a family member, or any friend with facial hair.
Go to thebrightonbeardcompany.co.uk and get 15% off now by entering the discount code STA15.
Doesn't include already discounted bundles.

(30:03):
I'm just going to scroll down to just reassure Cecily that wasn't only a go-to.
Cecily Hissoff says, please let me assure you that some of us old school
mts are up to date with our knowledge and guess what's played a
big part in that now indeed cecily believe me i first started
doing massage 21 years ago now but what
i mean is if you were taught that long ago that

(30:24):
you would definitely no one would buy no one
was taught apart from you know a couple of people who
we never knew about no one was talking about bicycle social or kind of
you know the research just wasn't hadn't reached the shop floor so we were all
learning that we are breaking down knots and adhesions and that we are help
flush out toxins and there's still people today who will say make sure you have

(30:46):
a glass of water because you're going to have lots of toxins i've just pushed
out your body it's a standard thing and unfortunately.
It is physiologically wrong. And whilst you're saying that, you're not saying
more important stuff, which is better placed.
And you're making that patient think that you've done stuff to them that you haven't.
And obviously, Cecily, I follow your intense living.
You've expressed some wonderful information out there. But that's the important

(31:07):
thing about staying up to date, isn't it?
You have to stay up to date. You can't rely on what you learned about eight
to 10 years ago, which is why just saying you've been in this game for ages
doesn't mean you're great.
It's a fallacy of antiquity or something.
Or it's just because you're old, you've done it a long time,
doesn't mean you're good at what you do.
If anything it opens the door to potentially that you
might be doing things which which need changing and

(31:28):
updating so yeah cecily obviously i i know
that there's plenty of old people including myself who have who have
updated what they originally learned i wanted
to bring up steve here because this is steve kirby
hasty how you doing says i really feel in fitness and well-being there are three p's
physical physiological and most important psychological fully agree
with ben we have two ears and listening is an important part of being

(31:49):
a therapist which is great but i'm going to use this as a
segue because there's listening and then
there's listening isn't there and sometimes the interpretation can
be if you just shut up and don't say anything give them that time wash
your massage and then you've done a good job of listening and that might be
what they need at that time but i want you to ben with with with the knowledge
you've got to explain the different types of listening what we need to be conscious

(32:13):
of and skills we need to pick up when it comes to listening i mean i will be
start this by saying yes listening is the most important
thing you can do right but there is a a little caveat with this and i realize
my webcam has just decided to freeze as i'm talking it okay you keep it it'll

(32:33):
probably sort itself out.
Listening where some people who use the term attentive listening, right?
Where you are, yes, looking at eye contact, the ums and the ahs, right?
The kind of going on and just as I think it's the, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(32:54):
Using your two ears compared to one mouth.
But people think, and I hear this all the time. I listen to them.
They told me their story. I listen to them.
And that's great what comes next
right because you can listen to someone and let's say matt you could open up
you could tell me your tale of persistent pain your neck let's say and i could

(33:16):
sit there and i could listen to you and i could nod along and i could look you
in the eyes you're telling me you could open up to me after for five minutes
and then i'll go so what makes it worse,
and at that point what have I shown I've shown no compassion really I've not
shown that I've understood it I've not shown that I care about what you say

(33:41):
or that I can I've actually,
have an interest in it so yes interesting is useful I'm listening sorry it's
useful but there's more to it than that so to show that you've listened yes
you use your ears bit and let Let them say it and give them your attention.
But then after that, repeat back. So they call it a summary or it doesn't have

(34:04):
to be word for word, but what you've heard back to them.
To show that you've heard them right so it's not
just a case of let's turn the story it's anything okay yes
you have taken in what i've said and then
this is the nature of that article about empathy patients don't know that we're
empathetic we like to think as health care professionals and therapists that

(34:24):
we are empathetic people because of our job patients don't know that they will
have probably seen especially in my world and maybe probably in your world too matt,
but whether it's doctors other therapists nurses whoever
where they do not think they did
not feel that that clinician was particularly empathetic to them and some

(34:45):
empathy is something you have to demonstrate okay it's not just something you
can emit from your presence okay yes you can be there and you can be attentive
and you can listen and you can repeat back but you basically have to empathy
is showing someone that you understand what they've been through or their experience.
You're not just being sympathetic so you're not saying i'm sorry to hear that

(35:09):
because that's sympathy now it's nice don't get me wrong sympathy is nice to
say and it's not a problem with being sympathetic but it's not being empathetic
because if i say i'm sorry to hear that,
i'm not saying that i've understood i'm just sorry essentially while empathy
and if anyone's ever read never split the difference by chris ross he breaks

(35:31):
it down very nicely into basically
either sounds it's something you say it
sounds it seems or it looks so it
sounds something you hear which will probably say most of the time looks is
something you see or seems can be either of those just to mix it up basically
and you add a describer to that this is in the article so if we give the example

(35:53):
of the lady who had a husband had the affair let's say she tells Tells her story to me,
repeat back what I've heard, gives a bit more information.
And I might say to her, it sounds like this has been a really tough time.
It sounds like it seems like you're not getting any help at the moment or it's just taken over.
OK, and hopefully they'll say, yeah, well, that's right. Or something that just

(36:16):
confirms you've got it right.
Because in that, that extra sentence on the end of that, it sounds, seems, looks.
And then the label is what is you basically demonstrating this.
You've heard what they've said.
And then the key thing with that sentence in the label is you're understanding their experience.
And that is what takes a good communicator to

(36:36):
a great or amazing one okay because we
can all listen and hopefully by now i think after all the years of therapists
social media and twitter and all that jazz there's plenty of posts and plenty
of influences talking about listening so i think that's been said about to death
by now we all know the importance of it but it's the extra stuff.

(36:57):
That comes after it that can take it from good to
great and that can be the thing that opens someone up
because you could say it sounds like it's been
really tough and they go yeah and you know what i
i'm actually not feeling well
in myself at all you know they might say something quite dark like

(37:18):
i'm not sure if i want to be here anymore or i don't know
where to turn i'm not not getting any help i need whatever it
is they may then come out with that thing that they
haven't told you i haven't told anyone else so far and you
can be wrong with it you can say it sounds
like this sounds like it's really tough and they may say well you
know what it's all right because that husband having

(37:40):
the affair may have actually been really a pain in the ass or being
quite abusive she's out the house now so life is better so it
was quite hard in the article to talk about
the the tone of voice and the timing obviously we all focus on the words we
say right but the words we say i think there's that statistic about seven percent

(38:03):
and then there's the 21 percent new tone and the 50 about your body language
there's a little video in that article about near the.
Bottom where you have to do a qr code because
the the tone of your voice and how
you say it will be as influential as those
words you say because you can come out you can listen right you

(38:24):
can repeat back you can say that lovely label
that is correct but if i say it like to
the ladies had the affair yeah sounds
like that's really tough and then move on or just not look and just in a very
robotic monotone tone i've said the right words but i've delivered it like i

(38:44):
don't care like i've delivered it like i felt like i've had to say it but i
don't feel it that makes sense.
And the timing of it yeah let them that's why you get repeat it back to make
sure you've got it right and let them add a bit more information if they want
to because you don't want to be
the the robot empathetic robot who just comes out someone says something sad

(39:04):
you immediately go oh that sounds really sad when actually the situation might
not be sad you need to let them tell a bit of the story and and they get going
with it and then come out with it,
which was hard to describe in text so i'm glad you've let me say it here.
Because i think those things about the tone
and the timing are as if not

(39:27):
more important than actually what you come
out and say so that was a very long-winded answer
for listening important so there's so there's so much
in there that people should rewind and
listen back to again one of the things that stood out for me massively
and i think it's really good for therapists to to
pick this up is we don't realize that we're

(39:47):
sounding like robots we might have all the intention in the world
and we might think that we're doing a great job we might
think that we're being really attentive and in our minds we're thinking wow
this person must think i'm so i've got such great empathy my body
language is amazing i'm sitting i'm copying their they're crossing
their arms i'm crossing my arms you know yeah but it's only
because we're not nest some people i think are born with

(40:07):
it i think and maybe these people naturally become educators
or kind of that that sort of stuff but i don't
think i think a lot of the time it's skills that you need to learn
like you've mentioned a few like what you do at the end for question
whether you go down or up like using words
like it seems it sounds things like i mean we've had guests on before i think

(40:29):
i chatted with you before about dr gary mendoza stages of change.co.uk and i
did his course which was heavily based on motivational interviewing because
he worked with those guys and and i'm I'm going to open up to you now to get a few cues off you.
But he came up with some wonderful things like putting your hand over your mouth
when you're listening, just to physically stop yourself from trying to jump
in. And I'm wondering whether...

(40:51):
One of the reasons why we do not naturally or why we're not naturally good active
listeners is because most of us have been trained to see ourselves as fixers,
as people who are the professionals wearing our kind of metaphorical or real white jacket.
And that's why the persons come to us. So if we're desperate to kind of say,

(41:12):
oh, I know it's your collision, you need to do eccentric loading.
I'm sorry, but let's have a go now, because you think that's your job, that's your identity.
So i think that that's
one of the things which makes active listening difficult does
that make sense because we still see ourselves and we're taught to be fixes rather
than facilitators you want to right the wrong
is that right so yeah like

(41:34):
it sounds like you know the solution to someone's
problem they're not even halfway through yeah i think
you do yeah yeah they're halfway through their story and you can already tell
you've got enough there's plenty of people with lots of experience here you
can tell from the patterns of your previous experience oh i can hear what's
going on here i know what they can do i just want to tell them yeah and obviously

(41:55):
they may already know the answer themselves they may have googled it and they
just haven't got to that part of the story yet where they've told you what they've
googled and what they've tried.
And it is you you're right and i think this is why pain gets a bit of a bad
rep and And whether it's in the physio world, because obviously in the physio
world, you know, you go into it thinking someone's got a problem.

(42:18):
That might not be an MSK issue, maybe a stroke, let's say, or they may have
had a heart attack or whatever.
And you want to get them better.
And in pain, clinic, they don't just suddenly generally get better.
It takes time. And a lot of the time they're never pain free.
We can improve their quality of life a lot of the time.

(42:38):
But there's we were talking about this earlier like the i don't think having worked as an msk,
physio or therapist for five years prior to being in pain i don't think my practice
is drastically different to what i was doing msk to what i do in pain now.

(42:58):
Yeah okay the clientele is a bit different there's a few extra things
that we i may do more of that i didn't do
then or do less of what i did then i do now but i'm
not like i've drastically changed as a person or how
i am is is this
something you feel that the fixed mentality in in massage and
sports that matters is this something you think should change

(43:19):
oh god yes massively i
mean it's a total but it's it's it's hard
because that's the identity of of a lot
of therapists they do pride themselves and well they're
taught these set of skills they find an asymmetry and
they're taught right you're going to make this symmetrical and the pain is going
to go away even though we know there's plenty of people who walk in light with

(43:40):
one shoulder up and they haven't got neck pain you know and it's but it's hard
because that's that's what they're taught a lot of people in this room the names
in here the people have decided to give up their tuesday evenings like like
you so eloquently suggested on your little post as well,
that they're clued up because they're here and they want to learn and they want to listen.
They might be too clued up for their own good.

(44:01):
But a lot of listeners, it will come as a shock when we say that you're not fixing people.
Okay, you're facilitating their recovery. And the only way you're going to facilitate
their recovery is by listening to them and working with the individual in front of you.
And that's a real difficult business model for them to get their heads around.
So it's a big theme on this show.
So it's great hearing from professionals like yourself

(44:22):
who kind of managed to put things into perspective
and and and just let us know that the great message from you this evening has
been keep doing what you're doing but use it to facilitate other things like
your active listening you know use that therapeutic alliance that trust and
and here's how to do it oh i need to bring up some of the things you share because um.

(44:44):
You've got a great i don't know you seem to be as active on
twitter as on instagram i would say is that
fair enough would you prefer one or the other no no i
do i will post on both at the same time i'll be honest with my twitter following
this i'm a lot better than instagram maybe i'm just not
very good for instagram i think that's a physio thing
i think i think twitter i think physios are

(45:04):
keeping twitter going i think not that physios
are all argumentative kind of people but i think certain and
physios keep twitter going by putting things on there and physio
just can't resist replying and getting angry but
but both are good i mean uh yeah both are
both but depending on listeners if you prefer twitter well on twitter and instagram

(45:25):
you can find ben at b y brow which is b w h y b r o w physio all one word yeah
that's on twitter and instagram and then also on twitter i don't know whether
you purposely have got any difference between these accounts but there's also persuading.
Patients persuading physical therapists oh no no
it was what there was a plan now it

(45:48):
will change that account at some point to something
else i have it in my head but i have no idea when i'll
change it away and i have no idea what it will be one day but it
will change so persuaded it was supposed to be
itself like this kind of educational resource for
this kind of stuff that's the the original term for
it but i felt like the persuasion

(46:10):
name kind of narrowed it in a bit too much okay
uh and actually the common side when i started talking to
people about difficult conversations around like breaking bad news or
belief change and stuff like that that went way outside of persuasion but people
still found very useful interesting so that's what it was it was a tent intended
to be this resource but life and things and classic creator stuff you kind of

(46:34):
You never quite keep up with your momentum and consistency.
So you can follow it. It will one day, the title of it, the logo,
will all change to something else.
I have no date for that i have no time for that but then when that will be i'm
hoping sometime in the summer we are in 2024 right now so i'm hopeful i'm also

(46:55):
as well as juggling a family have a blooming master to do at the same time oh it's keeping me too busy.
People can follow both but maybe notifications on the stay wide for our physio
yeah yeah but i want to bring out some stuff on instagram as well because you
post some wonderful information it's It's classic free CPD people always going on about it.

(47:16):
That's the idea of the podcast, introducing the people who you can follow and
get some great indicators on what could help your career.
So I'm going to bring up a few things which you posted. There's so much on there.
So I would encourage you all to, we'll put the links in the show notes,
but follow BY Brow Physio on Instagram or Twitter.
I want to bring a few things up to give people an example. I'm not going to
play the videos, but you do some wonderful kind of like minute,

(47:38):
two minute videos explaining what you're talking about, which in your profession is really important.
But I'm going to bring up a few here, for example. Now, obviously,
people listening to the podcast, you can't see what's on the screen.
If you want a visual, then go along to YouTube.
All of these are recorded on YouTube and Facebook, so you can watch the video.
So Ben is going to have to kind of read out what's on here.
I'll read out then. So it says, for those that are listening and not watching,

(48:02):
so if you want someone to do a new behavior, then tell them what they will gain by doing it.
But if you want them to stop or avoid doing something, then tell them what they
will lose if they keep doing it.
So there's a very fancy term in psychology called loss aversion,
which basically means we as humans are more likely to do something if we're

(48:22):
going to lose, so that's a.
Compared to then gaining something so there's a classic study of
the 10 pound bet where if i
gave you a bet you're going to give me 10 pound and it's
50 50 chance either you bet
10 pound and you lose it or you bet
10 pound and you get an extra 10 a back do you

(48:46):
want to take that bet matt 50 50 you lose your money or
you get double is it worth it oh not
for me but hey i'm not a gambling person so that's
the same for most people for most people the
number needed what did you think for the average person the number
it would need to be to gain for them to take the bet oh
what so either lose the tenner or i need to gain oh

(49:08):
i'd need four to one i'd need 40 pound back if i won yeah
okay so you're so the average was 23 so
they'd need to gain additional 23 pound back to
make it worth it if they lost 10 yeah so and there's
a study i haven't got it up in front of me i could
probably quickly find it but it's on shoulder surgery for people
who are going to have a rotator cuff i think it's repair and before

(49:31):
they went and saw the consultant half the patients going in got
given a card one of the cards said in 75
percent of patients going through the
surgery the the repair
will last the other half got given
a card that said in 25 percent of people
going through the surgery the repair will fail now.

(49:54):
It doesn't mean they won't get better it just
means that the surgery where they've repaired it breaks again they
then ask the people once they went through the consultant do you want to have the surgery and
very interestingly i think i can't remember the
exact stats but it was about of those
that given the card about 70 75 will not

(50:15):
fail will stay i think it was
something like 40 out of 50 chose to have the surgery
those that got told 25 will tear
i think it was only about something like 18 or
20 out of 50 chose to have the surgery so the
information the lose had a big
influence so they avoided having the

(50:37):
surge in this case the book i wrote there at the bottom is called the inferential
mind by tally shallot but we the common therapist thing is say well if you don't
get moving you're going to get stiffer you're going to lose your ability to
do something right yeah but,
that's a reason it doesn't work okay because that's

(51:00):
great if you want someone to stop doing something or avoid
it right if you want someone to do something then actually need to tell them
what they're going to do game or movement you'll get you back to doing things
with your kids being able to play more golf play more football do more work
and then whatever it is okay they need that.

(51:21):
Incentive internal incentive to do more so if
you want to yes do some add something or do something
new and what will they gain if you want them to
stop or limit then what will
they lose if they keep doing that behavior so yeah
the classic the smoking is well you may not
have as many friends and because they're quitting or you

(51:42):
know you won't live as long you see we all see those things on
the packets of the cigarettes right which there's
some reason why they put that on there because people may
more like to focus on what they'll lose
if they keep doing it rather than what they
might gain excellent and again this this is not what comes out of my mouth my

(52:04):
the best intention in the world if we use these terms incorrectly then you know
the research shows that we won't and achieve what we think you know we're going
to get these patients to do so it's choosing your words carefully and it doesn't
come naturally to you you might need to change the habit of a lifetime
and this is where sometimes mi and stuff cannot just change your you know relationship

(52:25):
with patients it can change relationship with family friends and everything
you know because it's all kind of the same thing isn't it being an activist
that can help in all sorts of different ways not just with patients which is
interesting can i pick up on cecily's comment without a doubt let me go It's a great comment,
which I just wanted to say I agree with.
I hope I've got this right, Sesti, if I'm wrong.

(52:45):
But trying to be empathetic sometimes, saying, oh, I've experienced that. It will be okay.
I'm more it's one of those things i'm always a bit like should you give a simple
example without one of a couple of children my wife had a c-section now i could have got various,

(53:06):
physios from where i work nurses whoever it's coming to speak to
her and say i had c-section too it was fine you'll
be okay but the situation is different
me being a healthcare professional i know the hospital i know what all the bells
and whistles mean i know what people do i'm used to that environment my wife
is not medical it's a scary environment we often forget that hospitals or medical

(53:29):
places are not the most appealing places for people that aren't medical professionals,
they don't generally want to be there and they can be scary and you know people's
situation is different you may have you may have someone who's come in with
let's say an acl tear right and you could say i've i taught my acl and it got
better but your situation is different you may have been

(53:49):
a sports therapist or some form of
therapist at the time and you knew what the
surgery may involve what your options were how to rehab it
or this other person's completely in the dark you know they may have very different
thoughts their needs are different they're you know how it's going to affect
their life is different to yours so this is why you know getting to know their

(54:10):
story it's much more important than just yes you can share a bit but don't egg on about it.
She and she's put about i think the last sentence about what we can understand
about our clients yes help fill in those blanks this has been in my mind while
i've been talking about empathy.
Saying i understand.

(54:31):
One of the worst things you can say which should be a bit maybe controversial but a simple example,
let's say i'm a male gp i've got 20 year old female walks in starts telling me about,
period pains and i tell them i understand right do i understand no no of course not okay and,

(54:56):
one of the lectures i teach that he does that at
the beginning of one of his empathy sessions just to make the
point that you can't most of
the time truly understand you and say
for yourself you can listen to them and hear their story
and try and repeat back to them what you've heard to then demonstrate you're trying
to understand but the phrase i understand especially

(55:16):
said robotic like we said earlier can often
make the situation a lot worse rather than
better you can say i understand that this has been
quite difficult or i understand that sounds like you don't know
where to go with this but don't just do the i understand
because it doesn't help most
of the time definitely great point cecily thanks for

(55:37):
bringing that up i think sometimes maybe because
i really believe that a lot of therapists do say what they say with good intentions
gone through a similar experience to their patients or clients they think that's
what empathy is they think empathy comes from having having experienced what
the patient is talking about, it's not that at all, is it?

(56:00):
Case of listening and showing that you're listening and giving them time to
get that sympathy isn't it you don't have to experience what someone's experienced to show empathy,
yeah absolutely do you want to talk about ice questions as
you got it up let's bring it up are you okay for time it's
nine i'm fine for time everyone else in the
house is asleep but we will shortly be giving you what you

(56:22):
need to do in order to get free three month subscription
to msk mag okay i will remember that but for
the moment i just want to bring up there's so many things on ben's.
Account that you need to check out but i want to bring up this one as well give you another example
and let's put it on full ben if you can we love an
acronym so what we got here ice ice is if
there's a thing that medical students will always remember

(56:44):
to say in their oskies uh they'll
always remember that even if they don't need to say the
ice they'll still say ask the ice questions um
so i don't know if this is taught
in do you think this is taught in sports therapy degrees
at the moment matt degrees we've talked with guests depends
very much on the university and who's teaching you

(57:05):
it's i i must admit i
haven't come across it i don't think it was on gary's
course but then there's so many of these acronyms out
there but hey people who are listening maybe if you've heard of this acronym ice
the ice questions let us know talk us through it so i so
basically i i said these questions you ask
the patient that in theory that you should

(57:26):
ask at every assessment and regarding their problems
so ideas what do you think is going on very simple
or what do you think the problem is because that
will then influence what you're going
to do later on because they may have been told things that are not true so for
example the other day i had someone who had the belief that she didn't have

(57:48):
an L4-5 disc anymore and then I was never had to do this before bring up her
MRI scan and very clearly show her her L4-5 disc was very much there.
Or they may have a completely correct idea
about what's going on so they may have been diagnosed with
a condition already and you can say and you can think

(58:08):
well you know what that's right actually and actually that saves you
time because you then don't need to go into a long explanation about the problem
so it gives you an idea of what you're going to suggest because you're going
to be formulating your hypothesis about what's going on as you're going through
it and then you can get an idea of how they're going to react to that when you
come to the explaining bit later on

(58:30):
about what's going on and sometimes any
beliefs that you may need to shift like that lady who thought she didn't have
the l45 disc i sometimes like to phrase it because with our patients they've
often seen various people before us and again it may be the case for you in
sports and massage therapy that you could say you've seen the let's say gp.

(58:53):
They've said that you've got hip osteoarthritis what do you think and it may
now the hip oa diagnosis you may have already clocked from the information you've
got that and that is correct,
but the patient may not agree with that okay so
again it's what am i got to work with here to get this
person on board so that's a very key question c

(59:15):
concerns what concerns i often ask what's
your your biggest concern about this um so
if they have people have all sorts of concerns and it
may not be related to what
they're seeing you for so they're
bigger they may tell you what they think you want to hear so
for example with a knee pain i may i'm worried oh i may not be able to get back

(59:37):
to football anymore but the concern is actually oh i'm worried i can't work
or actually i'm not worried about this knee pain i'm worried about my son who's
not doing too well at the moment,
i always ask with that are there other concerns you have because they may not
tell you the biggest concern straight away they may tell you what they think

(59:57):
you want to hear but i always ask people.
Any other concerns you have what other concerns and you go
down this so lady the other day said to
me i'm very tired big concerns falling okay any
of the concerns yes i'm worried about my husband may
not be able to cope much anymore okay any other concerns yeah
my daughter's having a another

(01:00:20):
child we may not be able to cope and it goes on
and she's eventually got to the point where she's actually admitted yes she was afraid of
dying so really you ask these
questions and the truth will eventually really come
out and then so it
gives you an idea of what you need to reassure about if you've been maybe breaking bad news
and then expectations what do they want to expect from you and your service

(01:00:42):
and that may be as a massage sports therapist they're expecting a massage right
or they're facing some exercises or to be told what's going on or something
and it gives you a good idea again if if you're going to be delivering what they expect then great.
If you're not going to be delivering or if you're going to say something different
to what they expect and again it may mean you need to address some barriers

(01:01:04):
first challenge and beliefs whatever
it is it's basically helping you be prepared for
that bit after you've done the objective assessment so you
know what what how well what you're going
to be doing saying and suggesting is going to go down
and it just makes that whole appointment so much easier there isn't sometimes

(01:01:26):
people ask about the timing of it it depends how long you have if you go to
your gp they're going to ask you within the first two or three sentences they might ask what's wrong,
then they may say okay so what do you think is right me i get an hour with my
patient for a new patient so i they will go through their story and past medical
history and all sorts of things and then we'll get to it they may say it as we go along.

(01:01:50):
But it should be there at some point. I would say when you ask,
it will depend on how much time you have.
I think you were talking earlier, sports massage therapist, about an hour. Is that right?
Yeah, the advantage of working in the private sector is, yeah,
you generally get longer, so you can give a much more detailed subjective.
You have to read your client carefully and maybe ask the, what are you expecting

(01:02:12):
from this session earlier on?
So if they do just want to come here for a massage and get 60 minutes, then they don't want to.
If you give them 30 minutes of chat and then you say right half an hour
massage they'll be i haven't paid for that i paid you for an hour massage so you
need to really read your patient or your client well but yeah
we get longer so i mean this is a great acronym for
subjective it's really important and the lovely thing is it's all

(01:02:33):
second person it's all you your questions are based
around your client or your patient rather than i
i'm going to do this i think this i've got this certificate
on my wall i can do this you know that's something which a lot
of a lot of therapists struggle with it
is all about the patient so a great acronym and
i mean i i don't think i've heard it before i haven't
used it when i'm teaching massage but i will do so in future and i'm sure a

(01:02:56):
lot of other people will mention as well really useful i should be clear it's
not my acronym it's been around for decades i think i'm very honest of you but
patient i should also add patients really value being asked because you're asking
for their opinion and again as you just said there,
it's making it about them, not you.
And again, it may be one of those things like that lady who said actually she's afraid of dying.

(01:03:21):
That may bring up the thing that they haven't told anyone else.
And you could probably ask them certain people with certain questions while
you are delivering some form of massage or exercise, whatever.
You don't have to bang them out in order.
You may find there's a right time to ask it, as you said there. So, yeah,

(01:03:42):
asking them can really get more information that again as we said earlier could
just be that key and i think i think becky said it earlier that could really
just get them somewhere but actually they hadn't got before i think she was
talking about with a counselor,
yeah yeah yeah no becky does tend to come up with some gems no it's great and and it's and again,

(01:04:03):
it's it's using the subjective to create a hypothesis and then using your objective
to test the hypothesis and sadly the problem is a lot of courses in soft tissue therapy are still,
presenting the objective to then create a hypothesis you
know so you're doing your postural analysis you're checking out their
psis and seeing if one's higher than lower and then you're thinking all right

(01:04:24):
i think that what's going on here is which is which is terrible it needs to
be do your subjective then work out what you think's going on maybe it's a combination
of the lack of sleep the worry about this the fear of this or maybe it's not
any of that maybe Maybe this person is just happy, go free. Nothing's going on in their life.
In which case, maybe I do need to concentrate on what's going on in the bio
a bit more, you know? So it's so important. Really cool.

(01:04:45):
Listen, we could talk about this forever. I think Becky has summed it up.
Becky Carroll has said here, what a brilliant episode. Plenty of golden nuggets to take away.
Becky, I was planning on so much more. Believe me, this guy has got so many nuggets.
Yeah, check out Instagram, B-Y-Brow, which is B-W-H-Y-B-R-O-W,
physio, on Instagram or Twitter.

(01:05:05):
And you'll and you'll love it becky you'll be there for the next hour so make sure
you do get some sleep get your sleep right okay now
before i forget i did promise you that there is
uh obviously we found ben or i found ben thanks to physio mag so what's it called
msk mag msk matters too yeah that's how i found them so there you go and there's
plenty more there you'll recognize some of the names on there for people who

(01:05:29):
are familiar with physio matters podcast in particular
i think i had a magazine cover of january up here just
to refresh my memory here we go so even on this oh i
can't see with my eyes but people like joe turner who is a
fantastic thinker in the world of pain experience and
everything is works with them and there's plenty of guests who have had on the
show who are writing articles for them so yeah it's something that you should

(01:05:51):
maybe check out maybe dip into and this is the perfect opportunity because they
are graciously giving one of you listeners the chance to have three free months of access,
which not only gives you free access to all of the articles in the magazine,
but also to the Physiomats podcast and everything new they're doing there.
How are you going to get your hands on this? Well, all I need is for you,

(01:06:16):
the listener, to create a post on social media. It could be Instagram, it could be.
What's the other one facebook tiktok do i i don't
think sta is on tiktok no there's a
marketing opportunity matt believe me i'm on
there for one chat live you get like a thousand views in

(01:06:36):
10 seconds but how many there are anyway but yeah so
facebook but because what you do have to do is you've got to tag in the uk underscore
sta across social media um sports media association it's got the same name it's
just uk underscore sta so you need to write a post on any of the those three
social media you need to tag in uk underscore sta and you've got to say.

(01:06:56):
I'd love to win three months of free subscription to msk
mag because and then just make up something funny or amusing
okay so it's got to be that to show that you've got it
from this podcast i'd love to win three months of free subscription to msk
mag because and then what we'll do is next week
i'm going to have our guests say a number between
one and however many posts we see and then one of

(01:07:16):
of those people will win three months free
subscription which would be a great it'd be so much for you to look through this
really is quite a quality mag and it's even though it's called physio matters
i mean the jack chew physio matters started physio matters
back in 2013 i think
so it's a long time ago when when most of
the great thinkers were coming from the physio camp we've evolved a

(01:07:37):
lot now but originally it was thanks to jack and people like that
and the early people in on the physio matters podcast who really started
creating a multi-disciplinary kind of media approach so don't be put off by
the fact it's by the physio maps team i know it sounds a bit antiquated but
hey that's the brand and there's no way jack could change that now it'd be it
would be nightmare it's very inclusive and yeah i would check it out right look at the time.

(01:08:02):
What's coming up next week? Well, you might have noticed that Joe Gibson is
not speaking on this podcast.
Joe has not got the burly, deep voice of Ben White-Brown. No,
far more feminine with a delicate. The first person to have a deep voice.
And you're definitely not Scouse. So Joe couldn't be here tonight,
which is why Ben graciously stepped in rather than coming in three weeks time.

(01:08:24):
But next week, we do start our two-part shoulder assessment episodes.
So next week, it won't be Joe. It will be Ian Horsley.
And anybody who's into the world of shoulder assessment will know Ian.
Names really don't get much bigger than Ian when it comes to sports injury education.
He's currently lead physio, technical lead for the Northwest,
the English Institute of Sport.
He was a physio for England Rugby Union for some 14 years. He had a PhD in 2013,

(01:08:49):
examined issues around shoulder injuries and professional rugby.
And he published several articles in peer-reviewed journals,
contributing chapters to several books on sports injury management.
He's currently a consultant physiotherapist for England Football as well.
So it's a fantastic opportunity.
I can't really big him up enough. I'm an amazing opportunity for you guys.
If you can to join us live, you can ask questions directly in part one of the shoulder.

(01:09:10):
Like I say, the wonderful Jo Gibson will be with us the week after,
recorded live April 30th, which will be treating the shoulder steps to success.
A hugely respected both nationally, internationally, our Jo is for her shoulder
rehab lectures and courses.
She's also a clinical specialist at the upper limb unit at the Royal Liverpool Hospital UK.
Case it's going to be a massive two weeks of everything and anything to do

(01:09:30):
with the shoulder which i encourage you to try and tune in live
if you can but if not then all of all episodes
will as always be downloaded or uploaded to podcast
apps or you can watch it on the recording on youtube so that's what's coming
up thanks people who joined us live as well some lovely gratitude coming um
through for the people who did join us live you make it all very special we

(01:09:52):
wouldn't do it if it wasn't live cecily hisop says ben you've hit the nail on
their head so he says ben and matt Matt, this has been excellent.
Sally martin says love the seams sounds looks
it is great i mean that's another nugget isn't it three words
which you use it might sound artificial to you
in the beginning but once you do it a few times it'll start coming
out naturally and it's just bad i'm not going to take credit that's chris ross's

(01:10:15):
idea but if i'm mine i just being so modest you don't have to say that and also
facebook user and the reason you're coming up as facebook users because you
just haven't clicked the link but facebook user whoever you are thanks for joining
us says thanks brin and matt taking lots away from this episode it has been
a great episode thank you so much ben for joining us,
right that's it apologies for keeping you ben for an
extra 15 minutes thanks for listening to me twins haven't

(01:10:37):
woken up there that's good no no once
they're down they're down so we're fine that's good to hear right and
somebody did call for part two i'm not going
to hold you to that now but there's so much i'll agree
to that oh well there you go you got it recording now got it
and that'd be amazing there's so much more we could talk about remember people
if you'd like to hear more about ben then i

(01:10:58):
do heavily recommend that you follow him on instagram or twitter and that is
at b y brow which is b w h y b r o w physio follow him now loads of this i mean
right thanks everybody um hopefully we'll see some of you live next week and
as always take care of each other.

(01:11:18):
Music.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Nikki Glaser Podcast

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep.194: 'Communication Skills: When To Sit In The Mud' with special guest Ben Whybrow

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Nikki Glaser Podcast

All Episodes

Ep.194: 'Communication Skills: When To Sit In The Mud' with special guest Ben Whybrow

Dateline NBC