STA182 'Optimising Communication With Clients & Health Professionals' with guest Andrew McCauley

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
back into soft tissue therapy.
Music.
Welcome to episode 182 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast. podcast.

(00:24):
My name is Matt Phillips, creator of Runjetlive.com, and this episode of the
STA podcast is, as always, being recorded live on a Tuesday at eight o'clock
on the Sports Network Association YouTube channel and the Sports Network Association Facebook page.
So if you are listening to the podcast, thank you very much.
Do please leave a review in the rating. It makes all the difference in helping
us get out there to a larger audience.

(00:46):
In this episode shortly, we shall be hearing about and discussing optimizing
communication with clients and other health professionals with special guest
Andrew McCorley the founder of ProCare Sports Medicine.
This episode is actually going to fit in very nicely with next week's episode
183 which is going to be recorded on Tuesday the 30th January which is entitled

(01:07):
Physiotherapy versus Sports Therapy in which I'm going to be joined by a group
of physios and a group of sports therapists so we're going to basically battle
it out to see who truly is the best.
No I'm joking obviously now i'm going
to be joined by three physios and three sports physios yeah and physiotherapists
and they're just going to talk about yes the tumultuous relationship which there

(01:28):
sometimes exists between physios and sts but through communication i imagine
we're going to agree that there are more similarities and differences but that's
the topic communication.
The episode is going to be streamed as well to the wonderful general oliver's
facebook group with the MSK HUCS, supported by Physiomads and MIHAG.
For which those of you who are unaware is a collaborative open network professional

(01:50):
therapist that was born from COVID, and it includes physios,
osteos, chiro, medics, sports therapists, sports massage therapists, and so on.
So if you would like to join us for that, that will be next week if you want to join us live.
Also, before I start tonight, my guest is waiting very patiently downstairs,
but he's already started rubbing his head in a slight primitive way,
so I don't want to leave him down for too long.
But I do have to thank last week's guests, David Barrow and Simon Taylor of

(02:16):
Rehab Guru, the founders,
who together talked us through not just a very comprehensive end-to-end patient management feature,
but also the importance and the benefits of this digital age,
ensuring the provision of oxygen patient client experience which again ties
it very nicely to the aspect of communication which we're going to be talking
about tonight and if you haven't checked out the website yet and i do encourage

(02:39):
you go to rehabguru.com there's a load of.
Information on there remember it's not just exercise description software
although it's very good what it's got it's also all the forms and
everything you need to look after your client from beginning to the end including
the booking the invoices everything you can need the whole experience
on all available podcasts and
also youtube you can watch the video and yeah check

(03:02):
it out right i've left him downstairs for long enough
like i say tonight on this episode we'll be talking to andrew mccauley who is
a very enigmatic and very i'm trying to think about the words now to pick him
up very respected sports scientist and sports and conditioning leader with a
degree in pe sports science and master's in sports and exercise medicine Edison.

(03:22):
He's also delivered the internationally acclaimed course on rebelling SSE therapists.
And some of you may have seen him at Therapy Expo this year,
where he had a few presentations during one of the SGA therapy up in theatre,
which is when does measuring force matter in rehab?
Really enigmatic, great educator in our industry, so very excited to have him along.

(03:43):
So without further ado, in this episode, 182, optimizing communication with
clients and other health professionals, which is now bringing us.
Music.

(04:05):
Hey, how are you doing? Good. I was just being a bit primal there, sorry.
A little bit, it was kind of like a double-handed social quimby thing going on.
I didn't realize you could see me. Oh, I can see everything.
Lucky it was just my head over the action. Exactly, yeah.
Thanks so much for giving me time. I was struggling for adjectives to describe because I,

(04:25):
and a lot of other people, are really impressed with you at Therapy Expo, and
I actually felt ashamed of not knowing more about you before you
suddenly appeared because i'm not
to say this to kind of like pick up the ego but also
other therapists other speakers have had on the show
were coming to me going oh i'm looking forward to andrew's presentation
he's here isn't he later on and this included people like angela

(04:48):
jackson i know we have friends and colleagues and also
who else was there chris tyler but was
telling me about that never too old to lift.com andy hosgood
was telling me as well oh andrew's there i was going oh yeah that
would be good thinking but then and
i felt really guilty because then you came along and i
was like how do i not know that stuff because it was brilliant information to

(05:10):
go and yeah i felt very ashamed but then i realized the talk and now hey happy
days for you here you're forgiven so my first question is how come you're so
popular what is it is it a mixture of everything or what do you put it down
to is it i didn't think i was that popular Oh, you are, mate. You really are.
It's nice from Chris, because Chris did my course a long time ago.

(05:31):
I don't know, man. I'm pretty, I'm pretty straight down the line.
I'm not, I suppose I'm not over social media that much that,
you know, that's, that's a difficult one for me.
I tried to get on for a bit, but you know, so I, I just try and be who I,
you know, which sounds really naff,
but yeah, I just, you know, I just, the course is really like,
I listened to a guy called Seth Golden and you know, when I designed the course

(05:54):
I do or design any teaching or any kind of lectures,
I was always interested in the people who are going to watch it and try
and keep them entertained like you know because if you're going to come on
it I've been on plenty of courses and I'm not saying mine is
amazing or anything but I do try and entertain you for
for the time because sitting there for longer than half
an hour an hour gets really hard and yes

(06:14):
information is great but it eventually wears thin you
know only so many references and so many patient scenarios
so I try and you know implement some sort
of things that make people remember the presentation and
I remember remember watching louis gifford that
i live in cornwall and he he did a talk for the nhs when he when i came down
here first and it was not like any other talk i'd seen before in a kind of like

(06:39):
in an educational medical background he didn't really care he swore a lot which
i really liked and he was just everyone loved it they were laughing and it was like i came away going.
I just won't forget that talk ever and that's what i think i try and do as much
as i can so So maybe that's why. I don't know.
That's a brilliant answer to what was a terrible question, really putting you on the spot.
But yeah, I never realized you had that connection here with Louis Gifford.

(07:01):
I mean, that's a great educator and sad loss to everybody. That's amazing.
Of course, being down in Cornwall.
But yeah, that explains why. And also, I like the fact you're not on social
media because I'm working in this industry.
I do tend to be surrounded and go first to the person I see on social media.
So the fact you're not there as much is, yes, testimony to you.
And yeah, the great work you did. So great. That solves that. Thank you.

(07:23):
It's your second time, is it, at Fair Picks? Do I remember right? Yeah, second time.
Yeah, I did a couple of times. No, I did one talk the year before,
Why Patients Are Liars. Oh, great.
I wish I'd seen that already, but... Yeah, it was all right.
How do you find the event? I mean, it's changed a lot since it first started
10 years ago, but how did you find it?

(07:44):
Yeah, it was my first time last year,
so it's quite difficult for me to compare because this year was very similar again,
again and as we kind of discussed off off air you
know the quality there was was great as well like you know if
you're going there there's definitely a whole bunch of talks there's
a lot of talks maybe i'm not so much interested in but there
was some news product there was good products there as well that were useful as

(08:06):
well it wasn't just about you know getting rid of pain
you know i mean there's only so many gimmicks you
can do or get gadgets and stuff and but you know there
was a lot of stuff there that was looking at measurement and looking a
little bit more you know at how you you
could yeah assess things objectively which i was
quite was you know that was quite good and it was great i

(08:26):
really liked because i've met you last year from
a networking point of view it's it was really good did
not expect that and and i've and i've actually built really
like and again yourself there and a whole bunch of
other people and it's just it's not like totally intense
you can kind of walk around and you can spend 15 20 minutes chatting
to people and you know i mean it's not not like it's different to another conference

(08:48):
where it's like a talk right three four talks short break you might get stuck
with somebody for 15 minutes and then you're back in again whereas you don't
feel obliged to always have to go to the talks and you kind of wander around
and you and you meet really great people actually i said it did surprise me from that point of view.
And it's great to do the talks as well really nice venue that you know the tech
and everything there is really cool so i enjoy it that's great that's great

(09:11):
and it's really interesting you you notice the slight change in the content
for the stands and the things people are selling there.
Cause traditionally that's been a problem, especially if you like a few years ago, well,
when it first started like 10, 9 years ago, there was myself there,
there was Adam Meekins, there was Jack Chu, there was Seth O'Neill, there was Mike Stewart.

(09:33):
Mike Stewart, who's also been there with Louis Gibson and stuff in Cornwall.
And we were coming out with kind of quite kind of like stuff which wasn't really
mainstream with the kind of, you know, it's very Mosley Butler orientated,
which since had moved on.
But it didn't mix very well with the
120 different types of massage side's gone down
the road you know so there was this kind of difference between what was

(09:54):
being sold in the events and what we were saying but now and
this is something i was talking to with the organizers the other day in
fact bernard smith is appointed as the
coordinator but only you have to tell me what your position is but one of the
things we chatted about was we should be working closer with the people who
are on the stands with the products and you know what like you just said now

(10:14):
we can be because if we're doing a talk we're talking about the importance of
measurement this This is what we should be saying. By the way, Sanso's down the road.
Go and see them. And I think because now we're all more on an episode four page,
both the stands and speakers, we're all kind of more seeing from the same book as it were.
So we can fix more, which is so good. And even with the MSK conference as well,

(10:36):
which once upon a time was physios against massage therapists,
and some of the stuff which was being played by the massage therapists was pretty...
Were wrong and and so difficult for allied
health professionals to associate but now again kind of all seen
in the same book so it's exciting place i think
um yeah i think i've got a
meeting next week with them actually to talk about to stop we're

(10:58):
just there that they seem to be reaching out and looking for
for for that so that's really good there we go thanks bernard so
i've been ill for the last two days gary knows all about
it you know all about it don't know too much details about
what i've been up to but yeah business development manager vernon that's what
you're so good got brain like a sick tonight you may have
noticed anyway right all about.

(11:19):
You now andrew mccrawley i'm interested because
one of the things i want to know about your web
your how your website started and also your studies because
one of the things on your website it says sports medicine is still
in its infancy in the uk so obviously you've
studied that and you did a master's in
sports and exercise medicine what is it about sports medicine

(11:40):
which kind of separates it maybe be from the
other masters or degrees if you can do yeah so
yeah it's a great question i think i did mine in exeter which
has which was there because i live in cornwall so
it was great because it was two hour i could actually take a
day off work and still work and just go up there and do part-time i

(12:01):
suppose the difference when i looked at it so i did the modules that i
picked you of it just that's probably the easiest thing to say
that you have a statistical module like you will do with every masters and
then you have then you have some choices and there's like a biomechanics one
which was excellent and one of the so one of the world's best biomechanists
down there Sharon Dixon has done loads and loads of research and loads of stuff

(12:21):
with Ben O'Neill and things like that so it was she was there she was my actually
thesis lead as well so that was a great module so that's not really answer the
question and while I did have those two,
orthopedic surgeons who ran the medical side of things so you had to have a degree in.
Yeah actually they didn't actually allow physios to
start with i had to contact them and say like they were

(12:43):
only looking at medics so i which was a bit
strange because every other sports medicine masters you can do it but so i i
called them up and they were they were fine with that and they said yeah no
problem at all so i had an orthopedic knee surgeon and an orthopedic shoulder
surgeon as my needs and then we did very like i had i had to go and spend i
don't know how many hours but But there was a certain amount of hours that I'd

(13:04):
have to go and watch surgery,
go into ESP clinics, observe their clinics.
So it was very medical based and very diagnostic making, clinical reasoning.
And that was the one of the exams was there was a couple of viva's.
But basically the viva was a whole day where I just did their clinic and they
just grilled me on the clinic and I had to do it. So it was it was very that
was the medical side of things. There was very medical based.

(13:26):
They took each part of the joint and there was lectures on that.
That so it was very much up in your clinical reasoning
game and your evidence around treatment on that
both surgical and physical wasn't just rehab it was
what would you do for this patient so it's kind
of making you ready for an extended scope role which is what i
was doing at the time and still i'm doing that because i work

(13:47):
half and half i do nhs in hips
knees and shoulders as an esp and then half
the week in my private practice which is a mixture of stuff so i suppose that's
the difference i don't i don't like sports rehab i don't know i've never i didn't
even actually look at those but i guess it wouldn't have that medical side of
things i was in hospitals and i was you know i say i had access to all that

(14:09):
kind of medical side of things.
And then that prompted you
to set up pro care sports medicine.com because i
think i remember writing i'm still reading on your website you felt there was
a lack of the information which you'd picked up yeah so so effectively what
what was happening is that in my world which is physio what was happening is

(14:29):
that patients would come in uh who were maybe athletically minded and that population
growing as you know now there's a lot more people going to gyms a lot more people
doing doing athletically minded courses.
I hit classes and stuff.
CrossFit was growing and stuff like that. And what they were doing is they were
coming in and physio departments where I worked in didn't have the equipment
to measure or test them or actually show them what to do.

(14:52):
So you were getting to a certain level of rehab and then it would have to stop
because there was either no equipment available or the skills weren't there in the physios.
And then patients were kind of getting told that was the end of the road in some ways.
You know what I mean? That's it, like, you know, you're done. and i was like
going this isn't right you know how are we
getting them back to sport how we really get or not even and

(15:12):
it's not everyone thinks when you say sports elite it's actually just running
the weekend you know or whatever it might be which is usually related to a lot
of these people's anxiety and mental health you know so these people are kind
of like i need to get back running and getting told well maybe you should do
something else no offense to gps but that kind of old gp role where they were
like maybe you should do some different sport maybe maybe cycling or swimming

(15:34):
and saying that to a runner is like,
maybe you should drink catsick. You know what I mean?
So it's like, it's just, I just, I just got this feeling.
I think it's a big, massive, I suppose, market of people that were probably
wandering around going, I need somebody who's going to really understand my world.
And then be able to give it back to me. And so I thought, right,
well, you know, from like, you know, I've been doing it.

(15:55):
So 20 years now, maybe 21 years or so.
And I just wanted to gather enough. When I was doing courses,
I did my strength and conditioning courses.
I did the masters. I was looking at going, what do I need to be able to give these people back?
And one of the things was something different. So you have to stand out in the market.
If you, you know, physios and a tourist, they're probably better now.

(16:16):
Hour but certainly if you look at the whole grand
scheme and physios and therapy so any therapist really
I suppose the only reason I mentioned physio specifically because I
was looking at them as my competition but you could say this on any
therapist I guess you're just looking around at your competition and everyone was
saying the same thing like a big dollop of vanilla ice
cream everywhere and like I like vanilla but you know

(16:37):
some people like coconut and chocolate like you know and I remember
reading when I went into starting up my own
business the best thing I did was did business applied to
um local kind of um commerce kind of
business volunteer stuff you get like free training i
even got five thousand pounds worth of of cash to
put into the business you had to kind of quote for you

(16:57):
had to go and do a kind of presentation and stuff but they they
grilled me for two days about what why you're doing this what's your target
market what are you trying to give to people what you know what's what's your
whole mission around these things and only like one one guy said like you know
can you draw your ideal patient and i was was like i was like i don't know you
know so i'm gonna bust it out i'm like you know it was really.

(17:18):
Naive then he's like oh no because you can't now
talk to them you're just going to talk like every other physio in
this vanilla world so what i had
to do then was like going all right well i read around it and i
read the best book i read was purple cowboy seth gordon
and he's an american marketer so that was one of the first marketing books
i read i thought marketing books this is going to be awful and i

(17:38):
was following a strength and conditioning guy at the time his name is Brendan Chaplin who's
quite big now actually he's done really well himself and he was
talking about it so I read that book and I was like that's that's
perfect so the idea really you drive along a field and
you see a lot of cows and if you see a purple cow you're like what the fuck is
that like you know it's a purple cow that sticks out so I wanted
to stick out in that in that area and I had done

(17:58):
a sports medicine degree and and I have done a sports
science degree and I thought I want to combine all that I want
to I want to show people straight away that isn't slightly different than
what you're going to get and I also position myself in the
market with that I give you 90 minutes for an appointment so it
wasn't your traditional 30 minutes and I don't take insurance unless
the insurance pay you you know unless they pay them a lump sum

(18:19):
and then they pay me I don't go boop or anything like that
because they wouldn't pay that for the time so I kind of had to commit to that
and I just positioned myself in that I said 90 minutes for new patient appointments
and in that time I'm that's going to give me enough time as well and that's
the thing I like like to speak about on a course is there's two people in a
room when you're in therapy and you both got anxiety.

(18:43):
Now, the patient's got anxiety for different reasons. They'll be anxious.
You're going to maybe tell them they never can run again or play football or
to go to the gym or that they're going to need surgery or an injection or something
really painful, or they've had painful things before in the past. You get the drift.
Whereas with me, I wake up every day and again, like I guess for a soft tissue
therapist or other people, it's like, will this pain go away?

(19:05):
You know, that feeling of, will I be able to help them? and when
they say oh that's really great you you get this
kind of okay now thank god thank god for that
you know what i mean like you know and so every morning i
wake up and i still do it's different every day but i'm like
i hope i can i hope i don't fuck up today i hope i
hope i really get i solved this problem so every time
i meet a patient i have to kind of like right relax and one

(19:28):
of the things i found was if i have more time i'm way
more relaxed because from the word go from a physio
it's like like get on you know we were trained it's like get all
this information ask all these questions and then assess them
and then do something to them and then also give them exercise and then
make sure they all remember all that and then they go away in 30 to
40 minutes i was like it's pressure already

(19:50):
so when the we get told to listen so this communication
idea listen and understand and show empathy but if
you're like going fucking 10 minutes gone here and all i want to do is get
on with this because it doesn't allow you to to
listen and shut up and and just be relaxed for a while
whereas when i know i've got 90 minutes i really sink
down into it and i can just wait there's no rush if

(20:10):
they're rambling on about something is that rambling or probably
allow me time to ask a better question you.
Know and and i think if you get coaching training or communication
training that's when you know because people go well what's a better question well
you'll start to understand when you do actually communication training
because you can can start to understand like actually and it's
the timing of asking that question and i

(20:33):
think it starts with giving the the physio or
the therapist this in in any case the time
to do that it's a very long answer it's a
great answer and a magnificent sequence nice topic that's
that's that's fantastic it's really interesting and when chapters be on the
show we were lucky enough to have him as a guest a while back and that book
was mentioned on other podcasts i saw the other the day the purple cow and the

(20:56):
guy who mentioned it was basically on the show so great it's nice to hear familiar
names and ideas coming out right the time already we're ready to get onto the topic,
which you've already started to talk about communication i love the way that
you say that it's so true the patient's anxious oh is he going to tell me i
can't do this how long before i can do my next run or whatever it is and also
like you say it's true the purpose is thinking i hope i'm getting ready i haven't

(21:19):
had a good week this week it will kind of like go away and it's not It's not
working. I've got to test to identify it.
So, yeah, that's really interesting. So the last thing I do is just suddenly
boil it up in a small 30-minute slot, or even an hour sometimes.
I've got to get it done now. Very interesting. Right.
So those of you who might have just jumped into the podcast halfway through
because you're lazy, this is Optimize the Communication with Clients,

(21:39):
Health and Health Professionals with my guest, Andrew McCauley.
So you mentioned there communication and coaching, as if they were kind of synonymous.
What is the kind of link between those two?
Whoa, nice one. I suppose the best thing I would say, because someone,
I did a recent coaching course, which I had done, and it was a great answer

(21:59):
to what is mentoring, counseling, and coaching?
Because again, you get that answer back about, you know, we're not psychologists,
which is is a common kind of like, if I start talking about understanding mindset
or understanding a patient's emotions or feelings,
which I'm very big on, really understanding and educating yourself on emotional intelligence.

(22:21):
And one of the answers is that counseling is performed by a psychotherapist,
a psychologist or a psychiatrist who's going to use the past to try and help
somebody solve their problem.
A mentor is somebody who's using their experience
to help you get to maybe where they were or
using what they've done as a template or a blueprint to kind
of help you so you're seeking them out to say here's

(22:44):
what i've done and this is what i'm going to do which i thought was useful and then
coaching is when you go to somebody and you have a
you have a goal effectively you have somewhere where you
want to be and that coach is going to help take out that
information and allow you to get to that goal and build
a journey or build steps to get in there and and part
of that that is asking very sometimes tricky

(23:04):
questions questions to let to really make that
person solve their own problem in a way
so that's what coaching is and it's and it's in
my opinion and there's there's different definitions to it I remember being
on the course there was a bunch of things said but that that's my thing I'm
just trying to get somebody so whether a patient or whatever it is or even you

(23:24):
know my brother or whoever once has a problem like well where are we trying
to get to and then how am i going to be able to help that person solve that problem.
And communication then is then a whole bunch of stuff that you can do to improve
that coaching experience.
Like communication is emotional. It's environmental.

(23:45):
So again, I'm very big into some of the studies I mentioned in my course as
well is about, you know, how you prepare the patient before they've even met you. you.
So I often, in private practice, I speak to every patient generally before I
see them. I don't have a booking system online.
They contact me and I speak to them first just to make sure it's the right fit.

(24:05):
But things like the waiting room, what pictures are in the waiting room,
what the waiting room is doing, suggesting, you know, is there anything in there
that's going to change their behavior?
And there's some really good stuff out of Robert Cialdini.
He's done a couple of books. One's called Influence, really old kind of psycho
marketing book, which is amazing.
And then another one called persuasion and he

(24:27):
talked about a lot of studies about how your behavior is affected by
images you see before you want to you see somebody
so a lot of the pictures in my waiting room are
about connection because again i'm i'm one of
my coaching models really is that as soon
as the patient comes in i'm going to try and explore them
as much as possible as a person and then as soon

(24:47):
as possible connect to them in some way so
find things that they're telling me that i can build connection now if
i can build connection before they've even came in the come in
the room or as they come in the room so like a
lot of patients will walk through my door and they'll see straight away
a rack of dumbbells it's right up to 50 kilos now that's not for everyone some
people might find that um intimidating or whatever but i guarantee that when

(25:11):
i the population i see a lot of is the athletic population the people who go
to gyms who you lift weights and you see them stop and they'll always make a comment.
So they're already, you're already in somebody's head. And you're also,
that comment then is an insight into, are they a bit anxious?
Some of them, oh, you're not going to make me lift that up.
I'm like going, oh, all right. Well, you know, are they scared of that?

(25:33):
What, what, you know, that's already in the back of my head as a question.
There are other people that go, no, I can't, how's the heaviest?
I had a 10 year old in the other day going, can you lift that? Can you lift this?
So there's all these kinds of like, even what they, you know,
10 year olds are difficult to sometimes communicate with when they don't know yet.
And we're we're bonding over this kind of heavyweight rack
do you know what i mean so communication is everything you

(25:55):
wait to deliver that coaching experience and it can
be as i say people will often talk about body language
which again people kind of talk i i
find that communications people overestimate how
good they're at it and underestimate how much
training they need for it you know they
underestimate how important it is and i

(26:17):
think probably another other question you probably would have asked is like i always
ask people to come on the course or in education how
many how many have you done communication courses in
a therapy expo in a room full of i don't know 50 60
70 people and only two people had
said they'd done any form of that it's usually motivational interviewing when
it comes to therapy but that's it you know and that's great i've done that myself

(26:41):
really useful but it's just interesting that people don't value it but once
And from my point of view, I'm ranting here, but from my point of view,
it's the number one skill that if you get better at trumps everything else,
that you can have all the fucking treatment programs and the exercise plans and all that laid out.

(27:02):
And you don't connect with that person. It really, really is a problem.
And the better you get at that and the quicker you get at that and the more
you invest in that, the better you will be as a therapist, regardless of soft
tissue, physio, chiro, whatever you are. Amazing. There's so much in there.
And your communication, I noticed this come up as you were talking,

(27:22):
you've already managed to form an alliance with people in the room just by kind
of sharing that experience of how even you, someone with 21 plus years experience,
still has that same anxious feelings and new therapists.
So straight away, that's a nice example of now, this person understands me, my ears are now open.
It's like you say, I love the idea that the communication starts,
not just when you say, oh, how are you? Good morning, why don't you get out or whatever.

(27:46):
It's beforehand. hand and because some people have heard
about the kind of nocebo effectively and i don't have kind of
any of those horrible big red bulging disc diagrams
and stuff and even a meniscus carefully taken out i know you can
kind of make the patient start hurting stuff but it's interesting the other
side the whole contextual stuff which you can help with yeah great
stuff and i love that idea which you said of even if

(28:07):
someone sees the weight rack and it sparks up
a bit of anxiety if they mention that we saw that the way it's
outside now you know which you might not realize realized after the first session
that they have got a little bit of kinesiophobia or something kind of like something
about lifting weights so great really good and the other thing I was one other
thing I just got unpacking sorry was because I could I know how much this will

(28:30):
this will resonate with our listeners.
The other thing was often social media in particular, which is why you're not
on social media, but a lot of social media for a long time has taken away the
skills and the tools, particularly soft tissue therapists, thought they had.
No, you're not breaking down scar tissue. No, you're not improving circulation.
No, you're not doing this. Ha, ha, ha. No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not.

(28:52):
And a lot of people just say, well, great. No, I put nothing on. I'll pack it in.
But as we've said a lot of times on
this show if it's more about facilitating that
not operating on this client in front of you and it is
there for communication then one of the massive helpful tools
in communication is empathy which you can kind of
learn about to train yourself but i find a lot of

(29:13):
soft tissue therapists who like that manual contact anyway who
are prepared to run their fingers up some heavy back full of oil they've
got a natural altruism with them anyway way
and they're probably it's easier for them to listen pick up
stuff and to reflect i mean you can do the courses that really help i
think in our community i'm talking now to the listener there's
already that tendency to be a great communicator with

(29:34):
some healthy people like sales so it's really good to hear you putting it that
way no no that's just yeah you're like sorry yeah like bad coaching there because
i was just you just triggered about 50 things as well and said that which was
was interesting because especially from soft tissue side of things because it
just made me think for I don't know if I'd thought it before,
but just when you said it, I had a patient the other day, and she said it was

(29:57):
one of my colleagues brought her to a problem patient.
And it was 50 minutes of talking, basically, don't pick this lady.
And she had a neck problem, but she was a hairdresser, and she went,
I'm a hairdresser slash counselor.
And she laughed kind of thing. She goes, but that's exactly it.
So it's touch or whatever, they're chopping hair.

(30:18):
But people talk all their the problems to a hairdresser.
And they feel pretty good and
they actually enjoy the hairdresser or the barbers or whatever you go to.
And I think when it comes to soft tissue therapies, it's like,
I think this is the other thing they have to embrace.
If they were to add really good counseling or coaching skills,
sometimes when people are relaxed, some people don't want to talk.

(30:39):
But if they do want to talk, you've got an absolute insight into being able
to kind of really get down to what's going on with them.
From a you know so whatever about what you're doing to their to
their bodies is you're actually putting them in a state where
they because i love a massage and i'm like going i can really
kind of come away completely clear-minded afterwards and if you add that kind

(31:00):
of social communication skill because again you might just think you're good
at it but are you are you waiting are you asking those right questions to these
people you know whatever about those kind of mental health effects you get from soft tissue,
you add that with the communication,
you're going to, you're really going to ramp up your, people are going to be
walking away going that, that person is amazing.

(31:22):
And they won't know why, but they will tell all their friends.
And that's kind of a part of, you know, they, you know, I, I'm hoping that I
don't really have that model where people see me loads of times because of the timeframes quite long.
I actually did see people very few times, but I'm relying on them to have such a good experience,
hopefully that they will tell other people and because i

(31:43):
can give them enough time i can build connection because
of an hour and a half you're an hour and a half with somebody you start
i want to know about the i'm like quite i'm you know being irish
i don't know if it's irish thing but i'm quite nosy i'm quite interested
in people so i'm i'm not from england so if you're from manchester or wherever
i'll find out about that i'll find out about football teams kids names dogs

(32:05):
names why they like this why they've come to cornwall you know life-changing
things and you will get bucket loads of information and actually.
You get that really good connection where people started like with
red flag questions for example they'll actually start to
tell you proper red flag questions you know you know ones around mental health
potentially runs around maybe even spinal ones like toilet etc sex life etc

(32:28):
you know which you meet somebody for the first time and in five minutes you're
banging out questions around spinal red flags no one's going to be telling you
between you and a curtain that they've got like like,
you know, no erections, especially a 25-year-old lad.
Do you know what I mean? We've kind of escalated to that quite quickly.
But do you know what I mean?
It's all part of that same thing is if you want to have good clinical reasoning

(32:49):
or make sure you triage somebody well, sometimes it's actually,
you're 15 minutes in before you're going to get any information from these people.
They have no idea who you are.
You know what I mean? And I think that's the thing. So as soon as you can build
trust, and as Seth Godin was saying, like, this is where you can get great,
you know, Looking outside of the world of health to get more ideas.

(33:09):
His whole thing, you mentioned empathy, is empathy, trust are huge in marketing.
And people see marketing as a bad word or it's like sales.
It's totally not that. It's trying to provide a service or something to solve a problem for somebody.
And we're hopefully solving people's health goals or athletic goals or whatever

(33:31):
you want to call it. And if you can do that with trust and empathy,
then he's worked with billion-dollar companies just off those kind of ideas.
So why can't we do that with patience and take it from other parts of business, if you like?
Yeah, great points. And again, I resonate a lot with our listeners.
You mentioned, I was going to ask you about flags.

(33:53):
We've talked a lot about how, again, soft tissue therapists,
for example, a massage therapist, a lot of stuff is going to be out of their scope.
Even a level four, level five, a lot of the stuff they're not going to be able to deal with.
And that's where, as we'll talk about next week, you may well need to hand over
to a physiotherapist who have been trained during their career to look after something.

(34:13):
Or a specialist who are busy it might be a male health or
female health or something but it's these people
who need to be checked out by a specialist will probably come
to us and by that i mean the massage therapist or and
sports massage therapist first because they think that if they
want that time out they want that hour lying down they don't probably
want to go to the gp because then why are they going to get all these questions you know

(34:35):
so if and also they're gonna even though
they don't want to talk about let's say for example the erection problems even
if they don't want to talk about that it's something they're carrying around
with them causing all sorts of secondary problems and mental health problems by
the time they're with you and they're relaxed and you're massaging them
we know that massage can affect the nervous system and
it's been shown in studies to reduce anxiety and depression and get

(34:56):
that 30 lines they might say you know you had that
box where you asked me to talk about infections and
stuff i mean actually it has been an issue i haven't told anyone before and
bam you could be saving that person five years misdiagnosis or no diagnosis
so it's a beautiful thing that that massage therapists have always shouted on
about this have got a massive responsibility as well to to signpost but only

(35:20):
if you've got the right communication.
Yeah. And I think, I think this good one just, I think it might be useful as
well for your listeners is like interesting.
We're talking about building a brand. Like this took, it took a long time.
You know what I mean? Like I'm busy now, but this took a while to get across
to people that the time I would, and then that would obviously come at a cost
as well, but it built up through, you know, you got word of mouth stuff.

(35:42):
And one of the best word of mouth ones was i kept getting this referral from
what i just kept hearing his name his name is jay grady now he runs a podcast
called the trail and urn which is a,
ultramarathon and trail running uh podcast i don't know if you know him but they
they do all the the ultramarathons down here on cornwall set but i
kept hearing oh jay jay's referred me to you

(36:02):
and i was like all right yeah and i thought he
was a physio in my head i don't know why i just added in my
i kept going right and patient after patient was jay
jay sent me jay said you're the man jay and i was like and eventually
i i think jay he actually texted me going oh i think i
need to see you for me and i was like jay i've got to say thanks
a million but i have no idea who you are and it turns out anyway that he came

(36:25):
to me and we got on like a house on fire and he's this ex-ex-military uh sports
massage therapist he's absolutely brilliant and he the runner community love
him and he's really good but what when I started chatting to him he was basically on the same.
Exactly the same kind of idea about communication and he one of his patients
had come to me was a cardiac surgeon who'd come to me and I sorted his knee

(36:47):
out and he said oh this guy's doing well you know and I really liked him and
that's what Jay then did he just went oh we recommend him then Jay came to see
me and then went through the same process and we had a great chat and from now on it's like.
He still sends me so many people. But what's great about it is people really
have a great respect for him because they're like going, they know where he

(37:08):
knows where to put me so that I can get back to him.
Because they all use him still monthly. You know, they're not going to use me monthly.
They're going to go back to him or every couple of months or whatever,
because they enjoy what he does and how they get him back running.
But this relationship that was built out of not even me knowing it.
But then once I did know about it, it was kind of opened up
even another level of kind of trust between

(37:30):
me and him there was no kind of like all right he's going to keep patients or
they're not going to come back to me it was this is like we were both
open-minded whereas i've come across in the past sometimes
in not even into therapists just therapy as
well like this is you're going to take my patients and i can't there's.
Plenty of patients to go around and i tell you
what the more friendly you get with your your local snc coaches

(37:52):
or your personal trainers and it doesn't take much
and i went on jay's podcast and i had a chat with him
and tristan assistant who's an elite ultra marathon runner and
then you get people listening and they're going oh wow that's exactly what
i need i didn't even know that service was available and you just
have to offer your time like tonight it's just these kind of
conversations the next thing you know you put yourself out there and
you're just and you're saying things and then next thing referrals are

(38:15):
coming from random places you know so that
was a really good story because again it was into therapy i didn't
even know about it and then once you didn't know about it it was
just a really nice relationship that's kind of developed ever
since and you know i support his kind of charities and
stuff so it's pretty good that's amazing and you
say this guy jay he's a sports mass arts focus for

(38:35):
traders yeah so how was he knowing when to refer on
and he done extra courses because his own studies would have given him that
information how was he yeah so so i think what what's happening
is obviously he just knows when things what he's what his skills
are are just not working or when people just have a problem
that require an assessment and he just does it early he doesn't wait around
you know he doesn't do 10 sessions and then like all right now it's i'm not

(38:58):
fit you know he'll do what he can and if he's making improvements you know he'll
keep going with it within his wheelhouse but what he's really good it's like
look just get this checked out.
And then and then i you know he just does it fast enough and and he but we if
whatever about that he he trusts me and i trust him so again that's the other
thing it's like the one thing i would always ask and it's what seth going i

(39:19):
i did a course with seth golden this market i keep talking about him but I did
like a three-month thing where you go online and you discuss it with other people
trying to set up businesses.
And one of the things was you have to...
He got us to do one task which is like why do
you buy stuff from a brand like why do you you
know i i chose adidas and i was like why
are why does adidas mean a lot to me and well what you

(39:42):
know i'm like you know is it the you know it's just the same as everything else
but and then i traced it right back to like i support man united and man united
were adidas supported they had a lot of i remember the the trefoil originals
badge was my first kit i was well into the beastie boys that That was my first albums when I was young.
So it was like Beastie Boys, hip hop, rape culture.

(40:03):
And then I was like, oh, Adidas, you know, and it was football casuals.
You're just kind of going, I don't like Adidas. I just like the culture around
it. And then Fred Perry was the same. You know, I was like, why am I into Fred Perry?
Again, the same kind of idea of music culture and stuff like that.
And I was like, why do you buy things?
And if you can find out why you buy brands or what brands have spoken to you in your language.

(40:26):
And once you can understand that then you have to
speak in other people's language about health or massage or
what you're going to do to solve their problem so i
don't know where i've got on to that i can i do rant a little bit sorry about
that but but it's that it's that idea of why do you trust people why do i trust
jay uh we've built a relationship up now but he knows that i'm not going to

(40:47):
be doing anything more than just going right well i'm going to recommend jay
to people i'm going to recommend any soft tissue therapists who come to me and who i really trust.
Trust that they've stuck their neck out and come to me and gone,
look, I'm doing this and this is what I believe in and I like your stuff.
I'm going to recommend you. You know what I mean?
Don't be shy to go in. And if anyone's rude to you, then they're a dick and you don't move on.

(41:09):
You know what I mean? There's always going to be dicks. But try it. Try it.
And, you know, there's definitely good ones out there. And I think it's absolutely
essential that you go out and stick your neck out and speak to people.
Good that's really healthy information a lovely analogies weren't
there why do you like your brand for years i thought
it was adidas because they run dmc so because they were
my adidas and people were correcting the whole time i wouldn't have it

(41:31):
but yeah and this brings us on kind of to the second part
we've talked about how communication is so important even pre-booking
a lovely idea i'm the same i'll always have a conversation with
the person just to check whether they're the right person with each
with each other i don't like turning down business but if
i think that they've got something which is not on my scope i don't waste their
time come to me waste my time so that's i'm sure

(41:53):
a lot of therapists don't do that because they're worried about losing it but that person
would more like to come back to you who've gone you know what this is what you have to say
i think you should go and check out with so-and-so i'll give them a
call to tell you can i just mention can i
just mention yeah on that point as well which i think is useful and is
i get people who call me up and i could spend like sometimes
if i've got the time i can spend 15 minutes now if

(42:15):
you get a business coach or someone who am i you know somebody who's
really sales oriented they'd yeah you should charge for this you
should do that i'm not i'm that's not my it's
a bit like the social media side of things i'm like i've done this where i've
spent time with somebody because cornwall gets lots of tourists and i remember
one again someone rang me up and they're going we're on holidays my next kilometer
i'm really sorry i don't have any appointments but tell me what's going on and

(42:38):
i'll try and help you out you know and then i'll I'd see if there's anyone else available,
you know, locally. Because, you know, the holler is ruined. It'd be nothing worse.
So I just would go through red flags and just make sure, like, do you need to go in A&E?
Something like a ball lake in A&E for five hours to realize you didn't need
to be there, you know. So I was like, right, let's go through that.
Let's see, what have you done? Have you even taken any painkillers?
You know, what's your medical history?
Just kind of go through and say, look, you could do nothing more than maybe

(43:01):
go and do this. And some advice like that.
And it was weird. I've done that several, you know, several how many times.
I've had people contact me because they obviously often come down here and they stay with family.
And then the family get in touch with me going, oh, you were really,
really nice to our auntie Mary or whatever.
And that's the reason why we looked you up and we want to come.

(43:22):
And there's absolutely no doubt that they will then book in an appointment.
And I've had that several times.
And the one time that was very one. So I'm always like, try and be sound to
people as much as I possibly can.
And I try and help them out. Or I'll say, look, I'll send you a physio,
a neurophysio or a neurotherapist or a massage, whatever it is.
I'll say, look, you go see them. but it was one day

(43:44):
and I answered the phone when I shouldn't have answered the phone which is
it was lashing rain I was just finishing
work I can't remember it was so I was stressed about something
something really stressed in my mind and I think it's the same that happens
when you see patients what your mindset is like is going to affect your communication
anyway I answered this phone to this guy I was more short than normal I remember

(44:07):
it massively because he was He was kind of looking and he was looking for a
massage and I don't do massage.
So I kind of went, I just kind of went, oh, look, I haven't got an appointment
for about three weeks and I don't do massage anyway.
Now, it wasn't that bad, but it was a bit wanky. It wasn't how I normally speak to people like that.

(44:27):
And I, cause I was just like, and it was, I remember closing the door to cars,
you know what I mean? I, and then I kind of went, why did I answer the phone?
Anyway, I'm driving along 10 minutes later, boom, Google review comes up one star.
And I don't, I didn't have a one star advice there. I was like,
and it was like, you know, and, and what he wrote, what he wrote down,

(44:48):
like it wasn't, it wasn't, it was an emotional, you know, you know,
what he wrote down was, it was unfair.
But at the same time i was like yeah but i i didn't do i i was well below standard
so because he drowned me i i stopped i pulled over and i just went i just i i am i tried to ring him,

(45:09):
and then i i sent him a text and i said hands up
i was rude i just did a whole just went
rock i'm really sorry this is this and i get
i really i was genuine i did i kind of went this is all against
i you know i said to people oh yeah be really sound and all this and
i was i was i was a bit of a dick there and he took it
down and he was really sound and he went no worries i got
it thanks for thanks for sending me the text and and stuff and i

(45:31):
went oh yeah really sorry and he didn't understand
that i didn't do hands-on therapy and his his thing
was physios do that and and that's why he got a bit confused but
it was i tell you what man i would never do that again it just
made me feel i was like don't answer the phone when you're not ready check how
you are before you're about to make a call just make sure you've got
the patience for that otherwise your communication will be affected

(45:52):
no matter what what you think you know and
it's the same when you're about to see patients as well like yeah i
have to give myself sometimes a bit of a you know beforehand you're
like right give a minute or what get focused on them i've just heard some bad
news you know plumbing job at home or something like that you know and you're
like oh shit i've got to deal with that later how am i going to get out of that

(46:14):
zone right now because i can't do anything about that and i need to help this
person because if i don't it's friday night it's five o'clock,
they could be that one star review again.
So I've got to get into the mindset that I have to give everything to them at
that point. And that takes practice, I think.
Great. Really powerful story. Yeah, and the negative side of poor communication

(46:34):
as well. That's a good question.
No, really good. Yeah, think before you pick up that phone or see the next patient. We've all done it.
You know, you then project your problem onto that next patient.
They're just coming along for some help. And you're just like,
oh, what? Here again, are you?
I'm sorry last week. What am I talking about?
Yeah, no, great. Really good stuff. that kind of
takes us into we've already talked about um talking without the professionals

(46:56):
sometimes yet just referring on as a great way of
networking not being afraid that
these other professionals are going to steal all your business which is an old
model of you know which we need to get rid of because like you say becoming
that third best who people think if they don't feel they're the right person
they'll say it's the right person that's brilliant and there's still Still not

(47:18):
many of those therapists around. That was a really good business model.
And once everybody does that, we'll find something else. But for the moment,
that's a really great piece of advice.
I think it comes out of anxiety, doesn't it? Because every therapist,
when they start off, they think, you know, you're business hungry,
aren't you? You've got no patience.
You're scared. You know, you've got rental, and you've got to do all that.
And I remember when I started off, I just went, right, how am I going to build?

(47:42):
That was all I kept doing was I've got to build relationships.
I've got to go and do talks. I went into running clubs. and everyone says that
but you know what I mean but I had to make the talks good though.
You can't just go in and do a crap presentation. And I don't think I said it
was brilliant, but I really spent time with it.
You know, it was, and I tried to look at the audience and I was trying to think,
how am I going to make this 20 minutes memorable for them and make sure that I understand them.

(48:07):
That was what I tried to do. And I hope that's what I always do with talks is
that people are like, he gets it, he gets me.
And therefore I trust him for some reason, like you trust Daddy Das or whatever it is.
You know, you buy that brand because you trust it for some reason,
and trust is a kind of funny word when it comes to clothes but that's what you're buying
you're you're you're doing that so so i

(48:27):
think it's uh yeah really important if you're there just you've got
a you think well i've got this two hours where i've no
patience don't go and try and panic on that
stick to your you know set out what you want to be as
a therapist set out the kind of people you want to treat and
then talk in their language so like if you want to see females
versus males or or mixed you still

(48:49):
got to speak in different languages if you're going to see an age age
group above 40 then you're going to speak a different way if
you're going to in 20s you're going to you're going to dress a different
way you know all that everything is is targeted towards
you know connecting with that person like i have a garmin
watch now i'm not a cv person i'm
more into weights and football and things but i have a garmin
watch because i wanted a really nice watch i like the look of it but i

(49:12):
now learned all the like i learned all what it does which is
really useful when you're speaking the language of a runner who fucking knows everything about
the watch and they're like oh here look at my you know
like they bring up the the excel spreadsheet and you're like well i need to
know about this so i have to study that but like i don't use half the stuff
on it but i do know that people when they come in the clinic and they go we've

(49:32):
got the same watch there's a there's a thing called the similarity principle
and the more you're similar to somebody the more connection you're going to have.
It's usually why your friends are similar to you. And because,
you know, you hardly, like you don't, most of your mates are not the complete opposite of you.
They don't, you don't like, you know, classical and they like heavy metal.
You know, it's, there's usually, you know, there's something there that you connect about.

(49:55):
And that's the thing is how do you build that connection? And again,
the simplest thing is a watch. They're like, all right, that guy gets me.
He speaks my language. That's the brand. He uses that brand.
He understands even the socks people wear nowadays.
You can you know it's every little bit is you
fine-tune it and then suddenly people are they
start thinking why why am i telling this person more

(50:17):
information because they trust you so yeah anyway really interesting i guess
once upon a time this is this and this is a whole other topic but it's in my
mind because we're talking a lot about contextual effects which once upon a
time we would have called perceives but we're realizing that's not really perceived
but because Because a placebo, by definition, is something that has no effect.
What we're talking about is how by wearing that watch, when you know the virus

(50:40):
is coming in, you want to appreciate that watch.
You're getting that therapy to your eyes, which is going to help you diagnose
them better, which is going to help you get them to recover.
So it's not a placebo at all.
It's really important, isn't it, to post this on the walls, the music,
you've got to play anything.
Yeah, like John Kiley is a sport. He runs the PhD in sports and exercise kind of area.
He's an ex-athlete, ex-league coach, very good publisher.

(51:04):
In paper he's on loads of podcasts type john kyle he's
up and you said it was university of central lancashire irish
as well so obviously very good i love his stuff i
love when he talks as well he's so hot he's quite he's always
trying to solve problems you can tell him he's just always trying to you know
not trying to spout his knowledge he's just going you know and there's another
thing and i need to it's always questioning and stuff and he did great papers

(51:25):
around the old um periodization challenged all that dog man and and and he a
lot of his stuff come out it's just basically with With athletes,
it's no different than patients.
The most important thing is that relationship you build with them and trust and connection.
Far more important, they'll tell you how they slept. They'll tell you if they're
ready for a hard training session or not.

(51:45):
But they will not tell you that if they don't trust you. So it's that connection.
And if you look at things like Alex Ferguson's book on leadership,
he talks again about it. He's renowned for that.
Nothing to do with his tactical stuff. It's all got to do with he knows a group
of people mentally where they're at.
They trust him to do a certain job. And that's what it's all about.

(52:05):
So it's over and over again, this kind of idea that they're soft skills.
Communication is a beast that's constantly changing all the time.
And you can constantly improve it all the time. It's the only skill in therapy.
Like if you go down to the shop, you could be just sounder to that person at
the shop counter and be sound and be nice and look at them in the eyes and maybe be nice.

(52:26):
You could change that and to make their day and make your own
day just like that there's nothing else you can do that's
like that you're always trying to to hone those
skills and just think well how can i make even when
you're chatting to your friends or chatting about anything it's kind of like
how do how would i ask that again or how am i more entertained why why is why
is that person then why am i actually listening to them so you can always change

(52:49):
it and always learn so you don't have to always go on courses you can just become
a bit more conscious so it's really cool but it's It's not soft and it's really,
really, really, really tricky, I would say.
And I think getting good frameworks or foundations in some courses is definitely
worth doing. I would say it's more important than anything else.
Yes, definitely. Well, you've fought a good argument and that leads nicely onto

(53:13):
my next question is courses. You obviously...
Use a lot of this in your courses and you've got an unravelling strength
and conditioning therapist coming up soon i think in
february is it end of february yeah yeah manchester yeah that's
yeah so i n core or hdpn and n core are usually the providers of the course
and then i do some private ones as well which is on you know my social media

(53:34):
which is i'd say minimal but yeah i do yeah doing around the country all around
so manchester's next one in february fantastic fantastic and because of the
title unraveling strength and conditioning for therapists,
that's quite a like an open title people aren't
going to straight away think oh yeah this is the guy who's an expert on communication is
that on purpose yeah yeah it's a good question

(53:55):
and i started the course with like so unraveling is
there you know what i mean i highlight that in
because people see snc but it's unraveling snc
because i'm not training you to be an snc coach
coach you're you're you're a lot of therapists a lot of them aren't
physios rehab therapists off tissue gps have
been on there students have been on there so the

(54:17):
idea is to open up dating what's the most important word in therapy is my question
i ask at the very beginning i get people to say what just one word what would
you say is the most important one in all types of in all kinds of therapy and
people throw loads of stuff and nothing's ever you know physical or exercise
exercise or anything like that.
It's all emotional words usually, or, you know, like relationship.

(54:39):
You know, listening, you know, that kind of stuff, you know?
And so it's, so they come up with these words, but really what links them all is communication.
And so when it comes to, when I did strength and conditioning courses and what
actually they call themselves the strength and conditioning coaches.
So coaching is in their title as well. And when I did that actually quite a
lot of the courses, you know, whatever about exercises,

(55:02):
a lot of it was like, how do you coach the cue how do you cue this person to
be able to perform a movement so the language of coaching was really important
it's a really good book by nickel nick winkleman on that but.
There's there's even that so it's like it was always down to the
words and the communication rather than the exercises themselves
so what i try and do in the course is yes use

(55:22):
all this communication but then when it comes to exercise prescription
it also helps you with deciding whether someone's going
to do one exercise 10 exercises three how
often they're going to do it because you're going to have to break down their
week and you're going to have to also gain their
trust that they're going to commit to what you've asked them to do
because no one's going to commit to some of the stuff that that we

(55:43):
asked them to do especially if they if they don't do exercise already
it the chances of them doing exercise
is pretty much zero and there's some really interesting research on adherence
if you have to change behavior or change any existing habits and there's one
other account member off the top it's on a slide this really kind of basically
the essence of therapy you have a 70 reduction in adherence if you if you have

(56:07):
to do all those those things,
which is, so we're up against it if you prescribe exercise to people.
So I'm trying to break down patients into kind of, how do you know what type
of patient you have in front of you?
And therefore you'll be able to say, well, actually you're only going to give
them advice and education today, or you're only going to give them one exercise
and that exercise is this.
And then when you do do strength exercises, are you measuring so that you can

(56:31):
give people feedback for that? Is that useful?
So how useful is measurement? And for the right patients, it's amazing and then
prescribing strength appropriately because a lot of people prescribe strength
and it's really not what the researchers show so it's it's not not the researchers
show but it's not the effective way of gaining strength so,
It's kind of like, you're right, it's a communication coaching course,

(56:55):
but it's for in order to improve exercise commitment, how you get people to
actually commit to the things you've asked them to do with.
A lot of people come off the course and they're going to go,
that course is more for me as a therapist than patients.
Because I always, and I did a psychology course once, Serena Simmons,
she does a lot of stuff with Claire Mincho.

(57:15):
Show serena was saying i remember her starting the course we're going
like you know in order to you know work on other people you need to you need
to know yourself pretty well you know and if you can practice those things then
you can you can help other people and i think that's that's what i'm trying
to do on the course is like open yourself up your own mindset to use a therapist
and then then you'll be able to suddenly see the patients in front of you if you like.

(57:37):
Great advice so let's bring
up your website for people who are watching live on youtube and i'll bring
it up on the screen so we've got all details of course details on there or would
best to go to socials instagram at pro care sport okay right so we'll make sure
that all of these details and links are in the show notes as well but um there's

(57:59):
a load of information and details,
about uh pro care on pro care sports medicine dot
co.uk isn't it dot com yeah
you can also email me i'm happy
to if people are struggling to find things or just want questions
um or anything about how i practice or whatever just yeah
the email is on there it's info at pro care sports medicine.com so

(58:20):
it's pretty straightforward it's all on there but yeah happy
to take questions or whatever from from them on
email if they want to that's very kind and then
i've also got links there to facebook if that's the place you hang out i'm
still on instagram as well it's some other information there and
twitter is you personally isn't it twitter is at macaulay andrew
yeah that's right so lots of ways to contact you and like i say you've got a

(58:43):
course coming up i think i've got a splash screen on there it's gonna be very
big but that was uh yeah twitter feed that was that's the 24th and 23rd 24th
of february it's a saturday sunday in a really nice venue in that and.
Sports performance place in manchester so it'll be really good got
nice equipment and stuff are there still places on there in case
someone listens to podcast they should they should be yeah it

(59:06):
should be fantastic okay wonderful great right
well thank you so much andrew the listeners have
voted and that's a great podcast tonight guys thank you andrew this
is vernon smith thank you very much vernon for attending once again and
it's a massive it's an interesting topic thank you and yeah
thank you as always people have joined us live it makes all
the difference um usually a lot more so we really appreciate you

(59:29):
guys because i just prefer being live it's it's instantaneous it's i like the
conversation and it's nice putting our speakers on the spot but they're such
crows they can handle anything and you come up with wonderful kind of analogies
like i prefer to drink cat sick and things like this every time i speak to any
guest there's some wonderful new ways of looking at life that way it's going to be a t-shirt.

(59:50):
Yeah i don't need
another one that's fine that'll be in the
show notes as well in case you get around yeah so brilliant
thank you andrew really appreciate your time and like
i say people it does kind of tie in when you talk about communication
with other therapists it does tie in with the.
Episode which will be episode 183 of

(01:00:11):
this podcast but it will be recorded as
always live on tuesday the 30th of january physiotherapy
versus sports therapy which is a bit of a clickbait title
i'm not going to lie but hey that's what you're going to be for marketing and andrew cordy
says there's nothing wrong with marketing so that's great
it's going to be a lovely group of physio sports therapists who
will be discussing this sometimes to monitor relationship like i

(01:00:33):
say between physios and sts but also building
on what we've talked about today how at the end of the day if it's good communication you'll realize
there's more similarities and the differences in it in relation to the patient you
want to help and if the patient's health then that's going to help the business
it's as simple as that really so we need to communicate with each
other and as a special jim oliver
who's the founder of the msk hub supported by

(01:00:54):
physio mats and mehab is allowing us to stream it live there so there
should be some great live questions as well from all different types
of therapies so if you do want to join us i can be a goodie just go
along to either youtube sports therapy association
or you can go along to facebook good pay sports derby association
or you can join us live from the
msk hub supported by 15 miles and may

(01:01:15):
have facebook group but for tonight thank you
again andrew mccauley really appreciate it i'll put you i'll put you on the
spot now and say would you come back sometimes i think there's so much more
you can just oh god yeah i'll talk for days man that's amazing yeah lovely to
have you back at some point be really cool thanks thank you right thanks everybody
and like i say If you listen to the podcast, do please leave us a little review.

(01:01:38):
And a rating just helps the word of great guests like Andrew get out there more.
If you joined us live, thank you once again. And hopefully we'll see some of
you at 8 o'clock next Tuesday. Take care.
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