October 25, 2023 • 25 mins
Description: Join us as we explore the transformative power of authenticity and immediate action in the realm of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) with leader, speaker, and author, Jess Pettitt. In this thought-provoking episode, we delve into the “Good Enough Now” philosophy, its impact on personal growth, and its potential to create positive change in companies, relationships, and communities.
Resources:
If you are interested in a complimentary copy of Jess Pettitt’s eBook, Good Enough Now, please email laura.kielbasa@mranet.org to get your code and details on how to download the book for free. There are a limited number of codes so don’t delay!
Let's Connect:
Guest LinkedIn Profile - Jess Pettitt
Host LinkedIn Profile - Sophie Boler
Transcript:
Transcripts are computer generated -- not 100% accurate word-for-word.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:21:03 Unknown Hello everybody and welcome to 30 minute Thrive, your go to podcast for anything and everything HR powered by MRA, the Management Association. Looking to stay on top of the ever changing world of HR? MRA has got you covered. We'll be the first to tell you what's hot and what's not. I'm your host, Sophie Boler, and we are so glad you're here.
00:00:21:05 - 00:00:51:05 Unknown Now it's time to thrive. Well, hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of 30 Minute THRIVE Thank you for joining us today. I am so excited for our conversation today because you get to hear from a very talented and experienced individual. Jess Pettit suggests a top facilitator and educator in the diversity and inclusion space. She spent the last 20 years teaching, motivating and entertaining more than half a million people just in North America alone.
00:00:51:07 - 00:01:17:16 Unknown And speaking of that, Jess is actually one of our keynote speakers at MRA's 2023 DEI conference this year. So, Jess, I know your main goal is to kind of start that conversation while also ensuring that people feel at ease and really feel safe to learn and ask these questions. And I. So for our episode today specifically, we're kind of going to delve into the world of good enough now.
00:01:17:16 - 00:01:42:10 Unknown And that philosophy and really its impact on personal growth, its potential to create positive change in companies, relationships and communities. So before we dive into that topic, I'm really kind of curious to know just what got you started on your DEI journey. Well, first off, thank you for having me and what I get asked quite often like what got you started?
00:01:42:10 - 00:02:05:17 Unknown And there's kind of two answers at the same time. The quickie answers are, number one. I was lucky enough to grow up in Texas with parents that were very curious. So any time I would ask a question, I was sent to the library to go find out all the different kinds of answers and then did presentations to my family on the fireplace about whatever it was.
00:02:05:19 - 00:02:31:09 Unknown So I think most of the questions I asked seemed to be kind of around what I think collectively we would refer to as the underdog or hypocrisy or things that just didn't make sense. And I wasn't raised in an environment where like, Nope, this is it. Don't ask any more questions. So I think that is a significant part of my curiosity.
00:02:31:11 - 00:02:55:13 Unknown I think the other part is, is that when I had real jobs, I often was advocating. I worked, as I called an administrator. My first masters is in higher education Administration with an emphasis in crisis management. So I worked on college campuses, advocate ing for underrepresented students, and how the college or the university could better serve its surrounding community.
00:02:55:15 - 00:03:22:18 Unknown And in doing that would often point out what the university was doing to impact the community in a negative way or how they were under serving students. So I would get fired, go to another one, get another job, get fired so I kept getting fired. And eventually I kn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to 30 minuteThrive, your go to podcast for anything
and everything HR powered by MRA,the Management Association.
Looking to stay on top of the everchanging world of HR?
MRA has got you covered.
We'll be the first to tell you what's hotand what's not.
I'm your host, Sophie Boler,and we are so glad you're here.
(00:21):
Now it's time to thrive.
Well, hello everybody,and welcome to this episode
of 30 Minute THRIVEThank you for joining us today.
I am so excited for our conversation todaybecause you get to hear
from a very talentedand experienced individual.
Jess Pettit suggests a top facilitator
and educator in the diversityand inclusion space.
(00:43):
She spent the last 20 years teaching,motivating and entertaining
more than half a million peoplejust in North America alone.
And speaking of that, Jessis actually one of our keynote speakers
at MRA's 2023 DEI conference this year.
So, Jess, I know your main goalis to kind of start that conversation
while also ensuringthat people feel at ease
(01:06):
and really feel safe to learnand ask these questions.
And I.
So for our episode today specifically,
we're kind of going to delveinto the world of good enough now.
And that philosophy and really its impacton personal growth, its potential
to create positive change in companies,relationships and communities.
(01:27):
So before we dive into that topic,I'm really kind of curious to know
just what got youstarted on your DEI journey.
Well, first off, thank you for having me
and what I get asked quite oftenlike what got you started?
And there's kind of two answersat the same time.
The quickie answers are, number one.
I was lucky enough to grow up in Texas
(01:51):
with parents that were
very curious.
So any time I would ask a question,I was sent to the library to go find out
all the different kinds of answersand then did presentations
to my family on the fireplaceabout whatever it was.
So I think most of the questions I asked
seemed to be kind of around what I thinkcollectively we would refer to
(02:14):
as the underdog or hypocrisyor things that just didn't make sense.
And I wasn't raised in an environmentwhere like, Nope, this is it.
Don't ask any more questions.
So I think that is a significantpart of my curiosity.
I think the
other part is, is that when I had realjobs, I often was advocating.
(02:37):
I worked, as I called an administrator.
My first masters is in higher educationAdministration
with an emphasis in crisis management.
So I worked on collegecampuses, advocate ing
for underrepresented students,and how the college
or the university could better serveits surrounding community.
And in doing that would often point outwhat the university was doing
(02:59):
to impact the community in a negative wayor how they were under serving students.
So I would get fired, go to another one,get another job, get fired
so I kept getting fired.
And eventuallyI know it's in our conference,
but high HR,I spent a lot of time with you,
but mostly I got firedbecause I was advocating
for something that the universitydidn't want to do differently.
(03:22):
Spoiler alert.
I would say that in my younger years,I didn't understand managing up
and maybe would
use like a different fontin how I advocated,
but I would do it all over againbecause I have just always
attempted to advocate for thosethat didn't have a voice at the table.
So here we are.
(03:44):
Yeah, I love that and I love thatyou stayed curious and that's
kind of helped you with your DD journey,and that's a big difference.
So just we mentioned that you'realso the closing
keynote speaker at our DEI conference
this year, and your session is titledGood Enough Now.
So can you kind of explainwhat is good enough now?
(04:06):
Can you kind of shareyour thoughts on waiting to change versus
taking that immediate action to kind of bethe best version of ourselves?
Absolutely.
I think that I should probably fulldisclosure, I'm
a Virgoand a really anal retentive person,
which means that I have perfectionisttendencies.
(04:26):
Definitely have experiencedsome imposter syndrome in my life.
And as I was listening to my audiences,
to be frank, I was kind of burning outon talking about vocabulary
and approaching diversity and kind ofthis way, old way, that I used to do it.
And I was burning out because I wasn'tnoticing a lot of progress.
(04:47):
And then being a perfectionist,
if you can't solve this problem,then it's very un motivating.
And in my kind of sinking burnout stage,
I started listening to my audiencesin a different way
and I kept finding them
coming up with a reason or an excuse
to not engage in a conversation
(05:09):
or to not truly go and start somethingor do something.
Or they wanted to.
There was a want there,but they they couldn't like just go
because they didn'tfeel adequately prepared.
They were waiting for all the correctvariables to be in place.
And I realized that kindof the intersection of what
(05:29):
I would call my burnoutbecause of perfectionism,
there was this You need to do it anyway.
And if we're waiting to solvethis problem, wouldn't
you think somebody amazing ahead of uswould have already solved it?
And the I think it's an excuse
is to wait until you have it perfect,
(05:51):
because we feel entitled to the successor feel entitled to winning.
So when I kind of noticed this as my owncure to keep me in this work,
I realized in my kind of mantra is,do the best you can with what you've got.
Some of the time, frankly,because it's better than nothing.
Never.
(06:11):
And obviously, this does not apply to,
like, surgery or thingswhere accuracy is really important.
So talking about advocating for someone
trying can be frankly, trying.
It can be exhausting.
But when you don't know how to start
trying, what you end up doingis you start trying to try
(06:32):
and ultimately trying to tryis good enough place to start, right?
I feel like it's all about kind ofjust taking that first step.
And I know a lot of perfectionistsout there who probably appreciate
this, this kind of concept,
but how do you
personally relate to the concept offeeling that imbalance between who you are
(06:52):
and kind of like what you mentioned, whoyou think you should be, where you think
you should be in the context of DIY?
I think what's at the root of diversity,
equity and inclusion is either
kind of those of you not watchingthe video have two hands up, right?
So one of them is recognizingall of the pain and suffering
(07:13):
that you have experienced in
your life, has made you whoand how you are in the world.
And that is a really important thingto acknowledge.
There are also a lot of privileges
that have made you who and how you are.
And most of us kind of enter this advocacyor DIY work
because of our resilience or our survival,
(07:35):
which includes like codeswitching at work,
doing things that you need to doto hide certain parts of you or cover
certain lived experiences or identities,you have to navigate the workplace.
I totally get that.
I understand from my subordinatedor marginalized identities,
the organization that I've done to stayalive or to thrive is very personal to me.
(07:58):
I totally get that.
However, if we were to enter
from our privileged identities, there's norisk.
It's not about thriving.
It's aboutjust trying to do the right thing.
So I try to really inspire her, myselfand others
to enter these conversations fromtheir dominant or privileged identities,
(08:19):
because that's the place where we haveall the tools and the resources
to actually do something,even if we can't do it perfectly.
And we might not actually noticewhen we're doing the right thing
because it's the right thingin the right way,
regardless of how our life has taught ushow to be.
I try to role modelthat I tried in my book.
(08:40):
I try to like create a pathway for peopleto gain their own self-awareness
of what it is they could be doing andencourage people to try to do just that.
Absolutely.
Or I feel like sometimestaking these steps
may kind of produce some challenges.
So what are some kind of common challengesthat you've seen people face
(09:03):
when striving for better relationships,
bettering themselves, fulfillment,stronger teamwork
in the realm of DEI?
I mean, I think the answer is in goodenough, people don't feel good enough,
and also at times have experiencedwhat it does feel like to be good enough
(09:24):
and that they're actuallythe same feeling, right, is like,
I'm kind of sucks,but I guess I can give this a whirl of
even if it's something outside of a DEI
context, you're driving aroundand you get a flat tire.
I don't know about you,but I don't consider myself
a flat tire handler expert. Right.
(09:45):
So then there's this kind ofincompetence moment where you're like,
I don't wait, what do I do?
And then, like, every tick tockyou've ever seen comes, like,
flashing back to you, and all of a suddenyou're, like, lug nuts.
That's a word I haven't used in forever.
lug nuts.
I need one of themsticky things to get the lug nuts off
while you're fumbling aroundin the trunk of your car looking for the.
(10:07):
Is it a crowbar?
Is it a jack?
I don't know.
The key things that you do,the lug nut twisty bit This,
like a little kernel of information, comeswhere you're like, Do it in a star.
Where did that come from?
I don't know, But you undo it in a start.
Now, all of a sudden, you know, this.
That methodology, you're. It's okay.
(10:28):
It's good enough information at the timebecause you're in a pickle.
You got a flat tire.You got to figure it out.
When we start interactingwith other people,
even when we call it DIY work, most of us
think we're only doing DEI work at work.
So then we clock out of workand we're at a grocery store.
We're not employing those same skills.
(10:48):
And what I'm here to talk aboutis not new skill development,
but it's really recognizingwhen you choose not to use them, right?
I mean, you do choose to use thembecause it's good enough to try.
The other thing I would say is
this is a little bitmore of a longer answer, but often
when we think of challenges,we think of challenges outside of ourself.
(11:10):
And my challenge to everyone is to thinkof the challenges inside yourself.
And when you are most challenged
or most confronted, how are you showing up
and how do you expect other peopleto show up?
And you can actually adjust
how you show up instead of waitingfor other people to show up differently?
(11:32):
So this is theI'll talk about this in the keynote.
This is the head heart action model.
And once you can figure outkind of where you lean
particular lean when you're challengedor feeling confronted or trying to decide
to use the skills you currently haveor to like take them off ramp,
it'll be really helpful
for you to know that I believe our lives
(11:54):
have taught us who and how to be,and there's nothing wrong with that.
We just we're responsiblefor this kind of like net
zero of how we begin a conversation.
So we've got a lot of self-reflectionto do after this podcast.
It seems like hopefully.
Well,you've kind of embraced and highlighted
(12:15):
just kind of being your authentic selfand how contributing
that authenticityreally kind of helps the effort.
So in your experience,how does the authentic self
contributeto these efforts and initiatives?
It's your base level foundation.
(12:36):
I think everyone in this maybethis goes back to even perfectionism,
but I think everyone knows howthey are supposed to ought to be right.
Like you're supposed to show upthis particular way, but you're
you're
responsible for knowinghow you're actually showing up
and then citing takingownership of the gap between the two.
(12:57):
And do you want to be showing upin a different way or do you not want to?
Like we often talk aboutand I call this an Instagram fight,
but of giving grace to other people.
And we don't necessarily
know what that means, but we also don'teven give grace to our self.
And so but I think giving grace meansis that person, whoever you're thinking
(13:21):
of that's annoying their life taught themthat that's the way to show up.
Similarly, your life taught youthat this is the way to show up.
Neither one guaranteesthat you're accurate or correct,
but you did learn this in your life.
And do you want to keep that learningor do you need to upgrade?
(13:42):
That's great.
So we've talked a lot of it, just a lotabout the good enough now philosophy.
But do you have any examplesor just any real life stories
on how individuals or organizationshave applied this philosophy
to enhance their DEI initiativesor existing strategy?
(14:05):
A little bit.
I think that I'm working on a new bookright now, and I have a case study
samplingthat y'all are welcome to download.
Look, give me feedback,give me your ideas, etc..
But I think what's interesting is,is there's not a lot of room for failure.
And if there is failure,we want to fix it as quickly as possible.
(14:26):
But I think failure is a way of lookingat a step
in the right directionthat didn't quite make it right.
And so my new book is calledAlmost or It's Almost finished.
But it takes the Good Enough Nowprinciples
and applies it to an organizationinstead of your own individual
sense of life or decision making.
(14:49):
But on an organizational level, I track 56
different case studies of my own clients
where something was attemptedand it didn't quite work.
And my premise is that itdidn't quite work
because it didn't use the full model.
It only kind of enters in one place.
The tagline is when the answersneed to ask more questions
(15:13):
and there's a lot of quote unquotebest practices within DEI
that are not necessarily successful,but it's kind of what everybody does.
And so what else could we doto flush out one of these initiatives
or programing ideas or response ideasor diversity statements or whatever?
Can we flush it out in a way that's payingattention in this three sided model
(15:37):
so that it's set up for success instead ofjust being a reactionary response?
And I find that to be
probably the most debilitating thingthat I work with, with organizations
when I do consulting work is back in 1984,they tried something and it didn't work.
And so then we're done.
We just don't. We already did it.
(15:58):
Or maybe they did somethingand it didn't work that one time.
But there's still painand suffering happening.
And if we're talking about diversity,equity, inclusion,
and we keep adding more letters,now we're adding belonging.
The reason why we have to addmore letters is it's not working
because we haven't actually dismantledthe systems inside of our workplaces
(16:19):
to actually include everyone who is there,
everyonewe serve along our entire value chain.
And in order for those peopleto really weigh in
to part of the office culture,they have to buy in.
And in order to buy in, they have to feellike they belong and are valued.
And that's the real workwe need to be doing.
(16:39):
Well,I'm looking forward to that book almost.
And that'll be interestingto read those case studies, too.
And we've included dresses, a numberwhere you can text, ask any questions,
give her feedback,and also her contact information.
So do you want to get in touch with herabout that book?
We've got the resources for you.
(17:00):
But kind of talking about thiswhole belonging, how does self-acceptance
play into the whole journey
of being the best version of oneselfin the context of DEI?
It's a really tricky question, but
it mostly residesin internal responsibility.
And there is nobodywho isn't a hot mess, right?
(17:23):
And often when we engagein these conversations, we want to point
fingers at somebody else who is a biggerhot mess than somebody else.
But this is a weird suspension of gravity,not gravity.
Don't suspend gravity.
Suspension of grammar.
What's so close? It's so close.
But if, like, I'mpointing my finger at you
(17:44):
because I think you are a mess,I'm somebody else's mess.
Right.
Somebody looks at me and is like,I don't know what is wrong with her,
but if she'd clean up her act,then it would be much better.
So if I actually were to do thatand to become more self-aware,
to be responsiblefor myself and quote unquote,
clean up my act, whatever that means,I'm role modeling for other people
(18:07):
how to do it, and forcing other peopleto realize
that I've become more responsiblefor my behavior,
not just when I'm at work,but when I am in a car wreck
or at the grocery storeor talking to a stranger at some festival.
I'm still responsible for everything
I do, everything I say,and who and how I am when I show up.
(18:30):
Yeah,
that's a good point that these these ideasand these philosophies,
they don't only apply when you're at work,they should apply all the time.
But so I think a lot of peopleare probably wondering,
how can I improve immediately?
And I know we always talk about the DEI
journey, that it takes steps and sometimesit takes a lot of time in practice.
(18:50):
But do you have any ideas on
what can individuals take away right nowthat they can start
making those positive changeskind of immediately in the DEI space?
Sure. So two answers again.
So the first one is stoplooking for the finish line.
So like a lot of us think that oncewe get a certificate or enough
different friends or have updatedour vocabulary enough, we are then done.
(19:15):
That's not how this works, right?
This is a forever and always thing.
So the the progress,is it becoming more natural
and being able to think aboutwhat are your responses right.
Like there's a gap between your knee jerkreaction or response
and the actual response.
And that moment in between is whereresponsibility and reflection come in.
(19:39):
So that's when you're actually working.
It is when you take timefor that little second response
instead of just your knee jerk reaction
that's actually making progress,but it doesn't get you somewhere.
It helps you decidewhere you're going to get.
So that's the first thing I would say.
The other thing I would say is one ofthe links that you have is to a survey.
(20:01):
And the survey will help you identifyhow you right now
are showing up across differenceor in conflict.
And it's either going to be very detailoriented, very idea
oriented, or I don't have timefor any of that business.
I just want to do something.
And when you figure out how it is,you're showing up and you get a little bit
(20:22):
more used to or comfortablewith your own showing up habits,
then it's a lot easier for you to adjusthow you're showing up
based on how other people showing uphabits are happening.
Those are the two immediate thingslet go of winning or finishing.
And how are you right now?
Because that's your responsibility
(20:43):
kind of part two of this question.
And I would just add,if you have anything to add on this.
Any strategies or just basic practicesthat our listeners
can adopt to align their personal growthwith their DEI goals and values?
The hardest one, and I'll talkvery specifically about this in my keynote
(21:03):
as well, but the hardest one iswhat I would call the 100% responsibility.
I do not recommend trying to do this100% of the time because it is exhausting.
But notice when you're not doing itand when it's easier to do it.
And what I mean is, is that beforeyou say something, email, text, whatever,
can you prepare yourself
(21:25):
to be 100% responsiblefor whatever it is that's about to occur?
Once you say text, send the thing.
And a lot of people will say like,I'm only 50% responsible.
But frankly, that's on marriage therapisttype job security.
And I'm going to ask you to take some timeto be 100% responsible
so that no matter what it isthat comes back at you as anything,
(21:48):
you're way less defensive about itbecause you had made a solid 100%
responsible choice before doing something.
Just try that every once in a while.
Or like I like to say,do the best you can with what you've got.
Some of the time it will be a life
changing way of blendingwhat you think is a diversity equity
(22:10):
inclusion kind of mindset
with your authentic self in everyinteraction you have with other people.
That's a great mentality to have.
I'm definitely going to try that outafter this.
Well,as we kind of wrap up here today, Jess,
I know you've given a lot of great adviceand actionable steps,
but do you have any lastkind of might drop moments on how
(22:34):
leaders and listenerstoday can just take that
take that step to create a more inclusiveand equitable environment
based on all the principlesthat you kind of listed out for us today.
Honestly, the hardest thing for peopleto actually do,
if I'm having a mic drop moment, isI double dog
dare you to stay in touch.
(22:56):
You would think thatthat'd be pretty easy.
Like, she's accessible.
I can text or any time I can, you know,connect with her on LinkedIn or whatever.
But people don't do it because it's hard
to hang in your own space.
And what I would might drop a moment is
who else is going to hang in your spaceif it's not you?
(23:17):
So we have to stop looking at thisas just something external to us
and step into ourselvesbecause no one else can do that.
To do the best we can with what we've got.
Some of the time,
I mean, if you want to learnfrom other people's failures,
notice external to you, read my studies,give me some feedback,
(23:37):
see what your thoughts are.
If you want to stay in touch,feel free to connect on LinkedIn
or text me the numbers.
2026704262.
But the truth is you won't.
Maybe you'll connect with me on LinkedIn,but then that's it.
And we don't hang in our own space.
And if you happen to notice that you are
(23:59):
in your own space, do the survey again.
Go do the survey again and find out howin that moment, how are you showing up?
Is there a pattern of who and how you are?
And then what is that like for otherpeople witnessing or interacting with you?
You can take responsibility for that.
And I'm here to help you along the way.
(24:20):
So I double dog dare you stay in touch.
Do my job. Right.
Well,
Jess, I want to thank you so muchfor being on the podcast today.
And thank youfor sharing all that great content.
I can definitely walk awaywith a lot of great,
impactful,actionable steps into our listeners.
If you liked our chat and topic today,
(24:41):
I would just urge you to commentsomething new you learned today
or anything that you'd like to add onto our conversation.
Don't forget to share out this episode.
Consider joining MRAif you aren't a member already.
We have all the resources you needin the show notes, all including
resources about us in our topic today.
Otherwise, thank you so much fortuning in today and thanks again, Jess.
(25:04):
We will see you all next week.
And that wraps up our contentfor this episode.
Be sure to reference the show noteswhere you can sign up to connect.
For more podcast updates,
check out other MRA episodeson your favorite podcast platform.
And as always, make sure to follow MRA's30 minutes THRIVE
so you don't miss out.Thanks for tuning in
and we'll see you next Wednesdayto carry on the conversation.
Hello everybody and welcome to 30 minuteThrive, your go to podcast for anything
and everything HR powered by MRA,the Management Association.
Looking to stay on top of the everchanging world of HR?
MRA has got you covered.
We'll be the first to tell you what's hotand what's not.
I'm your host, Sophie Boler,and we are so glad you're here.
(00:21):
Now it's time to thrive.
Well, hello everybody,and welcome to this episode
of 30 Minute THRIVEThank you for joining us today.
I am so excited for our conversation todaybecause you get to hear
from a very talentedand experienced individual.
Jess Pettit suggests a top facilitator
and educator in the diversityand inclusion space.
(00:43):
She spent the last 20 years teaching,motivating and entertaining
more than half a million peoplejust in North America alone.
And speaking of that, Jessis actually one of our keynote speakers
at MRA's 2023 DEI conference this year.
So, Jess, I know your main goalis to kind of start that conversation
while also ensuringthat people feel at ease
(01:06):
and really feel safe to learnand ask these questions.
And I.
So for our episode today specifically,
we're kind of going to delveinto the world of good enough now.
And that philosophy and really its impacton personal growth, its potential
to create positive change in companies,relationships and communities.
(01:27):
So before we dive into that topic,I'm really kind of curious to know
just what got youstarted on your DEI journey.
Well, first off, thank you for having me
and what I get asked quite oftenlike what got you started?
And there's kind of two answersat the same time.
The quickie answers are, number one.
I was lucky enough to grow up in Texas
(01:51):
with parents that were
very curious.
So any time I would ask a question,I was sent to the library to go find out
all the different kinds of answersand then did presentations
to my family on the fireplaceabout whatever it was.
So I think most of the questions I asked
seemed to be kind of around what I thinkcollectively we would refer to
(02:14):
as the underdog or hypocrisyor things that just didn't make sense.
And I wasn't raised in an environmentwhere like, Nope, this is it.
Don't ask any more questions.
So I think that is a significantpart of my curiosity.
I think the
other part is, is that when I had realjobs, I often was advocating.
(02:37):
I worked, as I called an administrator.
My first masters is in higher educationAdministration
with an emphasis in crisis management.
So I worked on collegecampuses, advocate ing
for underrepresented students,and how the college
or the university could better serveits surrounding community.
And in doing that would often point outwhat the university was doing
(02:59):
to impact the community in a negative wayor how they were under serving students.
So I would get fired, go to another one,get another job, get fired
so I kept getting fired.
And eventuallyI know it's in our conference,
but high HR,I spent a lot of time with you,
but mostly I got firedbecause I was advocating
for something that the universitydidn't want to do differently.
(03:22):
Spoiler alert.
I would say that in my younger years,I didn't understand managing up
and maybe would
use like a different fontin how I advocated,
but I would do it all over againbecause I have just always
attempted to advocate for thosethat didn't have a voice at the table.
So here we are.
(03:44):
Yeah, I love that and I love thatyou stayed curious and that's
kind of helped you with your DD journey,and that's a big difference.
So just we mentioned that you'realso the closing
keynote speaker at our DEI conference
this year, and your session is titledGood Enough Now.
So can you kind of explainwhat is good enough now?
(04:06):
Can you kind of shareyour thoughts on waiting to change versus
taking that immediate action to kind of bethe best version of ourselves?
Absolutely.
I think that I should probably fulldisclosure, I'm
a Virgoand a really anal retentive person,
which means that I have perfectionisttendencies.
(04:26):
Definitely have experiencedsome imposter syndrome in my life.
And as I was listening to my audiences,
to be frank, I was kind of burning outon talking about vocabulary
and approaching diversity and kind ofthis way, old way, that I used to do it.
And I was burning out because I wasn'tnoticing a lot of progress.
(04:47):
And then being a perfectionist,
if you can't solve this problem,then it's very un motivating.
And in my kind of sinking burnout stage,
I started listening to my audiencesin a different way
and I kept finding them
coming up with a reason or an excuse
to not engage in a conversation
(05:09):
or to not truly go and start somethingor do something.
Or they wanted to.
There was a want there,but they they couldn't like just go
because they didn'tfeel adequately prepared.
They were waiting for all the correctvariables to be in place.
And I realized that kindof the intersection of what
(05:29):
I would call my burnoutbecause of perfectionism,
there was this You need to do it anyway.
And if we're waiting to solvethis problem, wouldn't
you think somebody amazing ahead of uswould have already solved it?
And the I think it's an excuse
is to wait until you have it perfect,
(05:51):
because we feel entitled to the successor feel entitled to winning.
So when I kind of noticed this as my owncure to keep me in this work,
I realized in my kind of mantra is,do the best you can with what you've got.
Some of the time, frankly,because it's better than nothing.
Never.
(06:11):
And obviously, this does not apply to,
like, surgery or thingswhere accuracy is really important.
So talking about advocating for someone
trying can be frankly, trying.
It can be exhausting.
But when you don't know how to start
trying, what you end up doingis you start trying to try
(06:32):
and ultimately trying to tryis good enough place to start, right?
I feel like it's all about kind ofjust taking that first step.
And I know a lot of perfectionistsout there who probably appreciate
this, this kind of concept,
but how do you
personally relate to the concept offeeling that imbalance between who you are
(06:52):
and kind of like what you mentioned, whoyou think you should be, where you think
you should be in the context of DIY?
I think what's at the root of diversity,
equity and inclusion is either
kind of those of you not watchingthe video have two hands up, right?
So one of them is recognizingall of the pain and suffering
(07:13):
that you have experienced in
your life, has made you whoand how you are in the world.
And that is a really important thingto acknowledge.
There are also a lot of privileges
that have made you who and how you are.
And most of us kind of enter this advocacyor DIY work
because of our resilience or our survival,
(07:35):
which includes like codeswitching at work,
doing things that you need to doto hide certain parts of you or cover
certain lived experiences or identities,you have to navigate the workplace.
I totally get that.
I understand from my subordinatedor marginalized identities,
the organization that I've done to stayalive or to thrive is very personal to me.
(07:58):
I totally get that.
However, if we were to enter
from our privileged identities, there's norisk.
It's not about thriving.
It's aboutjust trying to do the right thing.
So I try to really inspire her, myselfand others
to enter these conversations fromtheir dominant or privileged identities,
(08:19):
because that's the place where we haveall the tools and the resources
to actually do something,even if we can't do it perfectly.
And we might not actually noticewhen we're doing the right thing
because it's the right thingin the right way,
regardless of how our life has taught ushow to be.
I try to role modelthat I tried in my book.
(08:40):
I try to like create a pathway for peopleto gain their own self-awareness
of what it is they could be doing andencourage people to try to do just that.
Absolutely.
Or I feel like sometimestaking these steps
may kind of produce some challenges.
So what are some kind of common challengesthat you've seen people face
(09:03):
when striving for better relationships,
bettering themselves, fulfillment,stronger teamwork
in the realm of DEI?
I mean, I think the answer is in goodenough, people don't feel good enough,
and also at times have experiencedwhat it does feel like to be good enough
(09:24):
and that they're actuallythe same feeling, right, is like,
I'm kind of sucks,but I guess I can give this a whirl of
even if it's something outside of a DEI
context, you're driving aroundand you get a flat tire.
I don't know about you,but I don't consider myself
a flat tire handler expert. Right.
(09:45):
So then there's this kind ofincompetence moment where you're like,
I don't wait, what do I do?
And then, like, every tick tockyou've ever seen comes, like,
flashing back to you, and all of a suddenyou're, like, lug nuts.
That's a word I haven't used in forever.
lug nuts.
I need one of themsticky things to get the lug nuts off
while you're fumbling aroundin the trunk of your car looking for the.
(10:07):
Is it a crowbar?
Is it a jack?
I don't know.
The key things that you do,the lug nut twisty bit This,
like a little kernel of information, comeswhere you're like, Do it in a star.
Where did that come from?
I don't know, But you undo it in a start.
Now, all of a sudden, you know, this.
That methodology, you're. It's okay.
(10:28):
It's good enough information at the timebecause you're in a pickle.
You got a flat tire.You got to figure it out.
When we start interactingwith other people,
even when we call it DIY work, most of us
think we're only doing DEI work at work.
So then we clock out of workand we're at a grocery store.
We're not employing those same skills.
(10:48):
And what I'm here to talk aboutis not new skill development,
but it's really recognizingwhen you choose not to use them, right?
I mean, you do choose to use thembecause it's good enough to try.
The other thing I would say is
this is a little bitmore of a longer answer, but often
when we think of challenges,we think of challenges outside of ourself.
(11:10):
And my challenge to everyone is to thinkof the challenges inside yourself.
And when you are most challenged
or most confronted, how are you showing up
and how do you expect other peopleto show up?
And you can actually adjust
how you show up instead of waitingfor other people to show up differently?
(11:32):
So this is theI'll talk about this in the keynote.
This is the head heart action model.
And once you can figure outkind of where you lean
particular lean when you're challengedor feeling confronted or trying to decide
to use the skills you currently haveor to like take them off ramp,
it'll be really helpful
for you to know that I believe our lives
(11:54):
have taught us who and how to be,and there's nothing wrong with that.
We just we're responsiblefor this kind of like net
zero of how we begin a conversation.
So we've got a lot of self-reflectionto do after this podcast.
It seems like hopefully.
Well,you've kind of embraced and highlighted
(12:15):
just kind of being your authentic selfand how contributing
that authenticityreally kind of helps the effort.
So in your experience,how does the authentic self
contributeto these efforts and initiatives?
It's your base level foundation.
(12:36):
I think everyone in this maybethis goes back to even perfectionism,
but I think everyone knows howthey are supposed to ought to be right.
Like you're supposed to show upthis particular way, but you're
you're
responsible for knowinghow you're actually showing up
and then citing takingownership of the gap between the two.
(12:57):
And do you want to be showing upin a different way or do you not want to?
Like we often talk aboutand I call this an Instagram fight,
but of giving grace to other people.
And we don't necessarily
know what that means, but we also don'teven give grace to our self.
And so but I think giving grace meansis that person, whoever you're thinking
(13:21):
of that's annoying their life taught themthat that's the way to show up.
Similarly, your life taught youthat this is the way to show up.
Neither one guaranteesthat you're accurate or correct,
but you did learn this in your life.
And do you want to keep that learningor do you need to upgrade?
(13:42):
That's great.
So we've talked a lot of it, just a lotabout the good enough now philosophy.
But do you have any examplesor just any real life stories
on how individuals or organizationshave applied this philosophy
to enhance their DEI initiativesor existing strategy?
(14:05):
A little bit.
I think that I'm working on a new bookright now, and I have a case study
samplingthat y'all are welcome to download.
Look, give me feedback,give me your ideas, etc..
But I think what's interesting is,is there's not a lot of room for failure.
And if there is failure,we want to fix it as quickly as possible.
(14:26):
But I think failure is a way of lookingat a step
in the right directionthat didn't quite make it right.
And so my new book is calledAlmost or It's Almost finished.
But it takes the Good Enough Nowprinciples
and applies it to an organizationinstead of your own individual
sense of life or decision making.
(14:49):
But on an organizational level, I track 56
different case studies of my own clients
where something was attemptedand it didn't quite work.
And my premise is that itdidn't quite work
because it didn't use the full model.
It only kind of enters in one place.
The tagline is when the answersneed to ask more questions
(15:13):
and there's a lot of quote unquotebest practices within DEI
that are not necessarily successful,but it's kind of what everybody does.
And so what else could we doto flush out one of these initiatives
or programing ideas or response ideasor diversity statements or whatever?
Can we flush it out in a way that's payingattention in this three sided model
(15:37):
so that it's set up for success instead ofjust being a reactionary response?
And I find that to be
probably the most debilitating thingthat I work with, with organizations
when I do consulting work is back in 1984,they tried something and it didn't work.
And so then we're done.
We just don't. We already did it.
(15:58):
Or maybe they did somethingand it didn't work that one time.
But there's still painand suffering happening.
And if we're talking about diversity,equity, inclusion,
and we keep adding more letters,now we're adding belonging.
The reason why we have to addmore letters is it's not working
because we haven't actually dismantledthe systems inside of our workplaces
(16:19):
to actually include everyone who is there,
everyonewe serve along our entire value chain.
And in order for those peopleto really weigh in
to part of the office culture,they have to buy in.
And in order to buy in, they have to feellike they belong and are valued.
And that's the real workwe need to be doing.
(16:39):
Well,I'm looking forward to that book almost.
And that'll be interestingto read those case studies, too.
And we've included dresses, a numberwhere you can text, ask any questions,
give her feedback,and also her contact information.
So do you want to get in touch with herabout that book?
We've got the resources for you.
(17:00):
But kind of talking about thiswhole belonging, how does self-acceptance
play into the whole journey
of being the best version of oneselfin the context of DEI?
It's a really tricky question, but
it mostly residesin internal responsibility.
And there is nobodywho isn't a hot mess, right?
(17:23):
And often when we engagein these conversations, we want to point
fingers at somebody else who is a biggerhot mess than somebody else.
But this is a weird suspension of gravity,not gravity.
Don't suspend gravity.
Suspension of grammar.
What's so close? It's so close.
But if, like, I'mpointing my finger at you
(17:44):
because I think you are a mess,I'm somebody else's mess.
Right.
Somebody looks at me and is like,I don't know what is wrong with her,
but if she'd clean up her act,then it would be much better.
So if I actually were to do thatand to become more self-aware,
to be responsiblefor myself and quote unquote,
clean up my act, whatever that means,I'm role modeling for other people
(18:07):
how to do it, and forcing other peopleto realize
that I've become more responsiblefor my behavior,
not just when I'm at work,but when I am in a car wreck
or at the grocery storeor talking to a stranger at some festival.
I'm still responsible for everything
I do, everything I say,and who and how I am when I show up.
(18:30):
Yeah,
that's a good point that these these ideasand these philosophies,
they don't only apply when you're at work,they should apply all the time.
But so I think a lot of peopleare probably wondering,
how can I improve immediately?
And I know we always talk about the DEI
journey, that it takes steps and sometimesit takes a lot of time in practice.
(18:50):
But do you have any ideas on
what can individuals take away right nowthat they can start
making those positive changeskind of immediately in the DEI space?
Sure. So two answers again.
So the first one is stoplooking for the finish line.
So like a lot of us think that oncewe get a certificate or enough
different friends or have updatedour vocabulary enough, we are then done.
(19:15):
That's not how this works, right?
This is a forever and always thing.
So the the progress,is it becoming more natural
and being able to think aboutwhat are your responses right.
Like there's a gap between your knee jerkreaction or response
and the actual response.
And that moment in between is whereresponsibility and reflection come in.
(19:39):
So that's when you're actually working.
It is when you take timefor that little second response
instead of just your knee jerk reaction
that's actually making progress,but it doesn't get you somewhere.
It helps you decidewhere you're going to get.
So that's the first thing I would say.
The other thing I would say is one ofthe links that you have is to a survey.
(20:01):
And the survey will help you identifyhow you right now
are showing up across differenceor in conflict.
And it's either going to be very detailoriented, very idea
oriented, or I don't have timefor any of that business.
I just want to do something.
And when you figure out how it is,you're showing up and you get a little bit
(20:22):
more used to or comfortablewith your own showing up habits,
then it's a lot easier for you to adjusthow you're showing up
based on how other people showing uphabits are happening.
Those are the two immediate thingslet go of winning or finishing.
And how are you right now?
Because that's your responsibility
(20:43):
kind of part two of this question.
And I would just add,if you have anything to add on this.
Any strategies or just basic practicesthat our listeners
can adopt to align their personal growthwith their DEI goals and values?
The hardest one, and I'll talkvery specifically about this in my keynote
(21:03):
as well, but the hardest one iswhat I would call the 100% responsibility.
I do not recommend trying to do this100% of the time because it is exhausting.
But notice when you're not doing itand when it's easier to do it.
And what I mean is, is that beforeyou say something, email, text, whatever,
can you prepare yourself
(21:25):
to be 100% responsiblefor whatever it is that's about to occur?
Once you say text, send the thing.
And a lot of people will say like,I'm only 50% responsible.
But frankly, that's on marriage therapisttype job security.
And I'm going to ask you to take some timeto be 100% responsible
so that no matter what it isthat comes back at you as anything,
(21:48):
you're way less defensive about itbecause you had made a solid 100%
responsible choice before doing something.
Just try that every once in a while.
Or like I like to say,do the best you can with what you've got.
Some of the time it will be a life
changing way of blendingwhat you think is a diversity equity
(22:10):
inclusion kind of mindset
with your authentic self in everyinteraction you have with other people.
That's a great mentality to have.
I'm definitely going to try that outafter this.
Well,as we kind of wrap up here today, Jess,
I know you've given a lot of great adviceand actionable steps,
but do you have any lastkind of might drop moments on how
(22:34):
leaders and listenerstoday can just take that
take that step to create a more inclusiveand equitable environment
based on all the principlesthat you kind of listed out for us today.
Honestly, the hardest thing for peopleto actually do,
if I'm having a mic drop moment, isI double dog
dare you to stay in touch.
(22:56):
You would think thatthat'd be pretty easy.
Like, she's accessible.
I can text or any time I can, you know,connect with her on LinkedIn or whatever.
But people don't do it because it's hard
to hang in your own space.
And what I would might drop a moment is
who else is going to hang in your spaceif it's not you?
(23:17):
So we have to stop looking at thisas just something external to us
and step into ourselvesbecause no one else can do that.
To do the best we can with what we've got.
Some of the time,
I mean, if you want to learnfrom other people's failures,
notice external to you, read my studies,give me some feedback,
(23:37):
see what your thoughts are.
If you want to stay in touch,feel free to connect on LinkedIn
or text me the numbers.
2026704262.
But the truth is you won't.
Maybe you'll connect with me on LinkedIn,but then that's it.
And we don't hang in our own space.
And if you happen to notice that you are
(23:59):
in your own space, do the survey again.
Go do the survey again and find out howin that moment, how are you showing up?
Is there a pattern of who and how you are?
And then what is that like for otherpeople witnessing or interacting with you?
You can take responsibility for that.
And I'm here to help you along the way.
(24:20):
So I double dog dare you stay in touch.
Do my job. Right.
Well,
Jess, I want to thank you so muchfor being on the podcast today.
And thank youfor sharing all that great content.
I can definitely walk awaywith a lot of great,
impactful,actionable steps into our listeners.
If you liked our chat and topic today,
(24:41):
I would just urge you to commentsomething new you learned today
or anything that you'd like to add onto our conversation.
Don't forget to share out this episode.
Consider joining MRAif you aren't a member already.
We have all the resources you needin the show notes, all including
resources about us in our topic today.
Otherwise, thank you so much fortuning in today and thanks again, Jess.
(25:04):
We will see you all next week.
And that wraps up our contentfor this episode.
Be sure to reference the show noteswhere you can sign up to connect.
For more podcast updates,
check out other MRA episodeson your favorite podcast platform.
And as always, make sure to follow MRA's30 minutes THRIVE
so you don't miss out.Thanks for tuning in
and we'll see you next Wednesdayto carry on the conversation.
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