January 13, 2023 • 33 mins
Dr. Jacqueline Agostino and Isabelle Kaddis, RCBC Life Program Instructors, storytellers and passionate women, share their inspiration for the importance of Women's History, how it's left out of our country's awareness, a wave of feminism, the power of learning and wealth of Burlington County knowledge within the RCBC community and beyond.
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Unknown (00:00):
Welcome to Rowan College a Burlington County's
Baroness Podcast. I'm Dr. BrookeMailhiot program chair and
assistant professor of ourentertainment technologies
department. I am the chair ofthe Women's Advocacy Group a
subcommittee of the President'sAdvisory Council on diversity,
equity and inclusion. Thismonthly series highlights women
in leadership while encouraginglisteners to build their skills,
(00:24):
connect with the community andvisualize the opportunities
available to women in variousprofessions. Tune in for a
female perspective on theBurlington County community. We
are here to listen to theseamazing women. If you want to
hear from women who lead andinspire this podcast is for you.
(00:46):
Welcome to our January podcast anew year a new year and always
celebrating life and creatingour New Year's resolutions for
2023. And today we will bediscussing life, but not life
that you really think life as itrelates to what here at Rowan
College of Burlington Countysuggests life is during our life
(01:10):
program. Those of you that don'tknow RCBC's LIFE program. It is
learning is for everyone. Andthis program is geared towards
our life long learning communityfor those aged 50 plus the
opportunity to pursue and formaleducational goals through a
broad range of classes taught byvolunteer instructors. And
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today, we have two wonderful,fantastic life instructors
joining us today, Isabel atus,and 11 year instructor and Dr.
Jackie Augustine, a 10 yearveteran of the Life program
teaching women's history.Ladies, thank you so much for
joining us today. Thank you.What was really interesting when
(01:55):
we talked before the podcasttoday, Dr. Augustina, you had
said something that was somoving to me about your life.
And it was kind of like whenyour life took off, I think you
had said that you looked back atyour 1964 College yearbook. And
your Social Studies facultyconsisted of 16 males and two
(02:20):
females with no racialdiversity. And you had called
that the fog of patriarchy. AndI thought that was so powerful
when we spoke. Can you tell meabout that moment that kind of
set your life off?
Well, I think that when I firstbecame interested in women's
(02:42):
history quite by accident, Ilooked back at my life. And I
said I didn't I don't know anyof this history. How can that
be? And then I thought about Ihave four degrees. I went
through all this education, andjust how many female professors
did I have? I could count themon one hand. Think about that
(03:05):
for saying yeah, and I couldcount the number of female
professors on one hand. Wow. Sothat's when I picked up my
yearbook and look back at Rowan,which is then was called
Glassboro. state for the record.And I said, well, there are
hardly any female professors inmy college. So what I call the
(03:28):
fog of patriarchy is thatpatriarchy existed and we are
living in the fog because wedon't see it. That's the font.
It is. And
what's really interesting isIsabel for you, you know, Jackie
teaches the women's history, butyou also kind of have a spin off
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class. And I know it is heavilyfemale. Can you tell us a little
bit about your life class?
Okay, my life class is calledfrom the left. I did not start
it. I took over after fourmonths, the man who was doing it
asked me to take it overtemporarily. And 11 years later,
I'm still doing it. It's it'sKevin events class. And I have
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males and females in my class.And I don't really lecture I
introduce a subject and I send atopics list with links so we can
start a discussion. But when Istart talking about what we're
going to discuss, all of asudden, the class just takes
off. They they the class membersmake the class they get so
(04:35):
excited. They have differentviews. They have different
backgrounds. They use differentsources for information. And I
just look forward to every classbecause these people are just so
fantastic.
Why is it important for ourfemale population to take a
class like yours?
I think it's important becauseyou know what's going on. And
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these people the women speak up,they have very good, they
analyze things. They just don'tthey, they give comments, they
analyze they, they look up moreinformation. And it's just very
inspiring to see how these womenand the men also, they just take
off in that class. And I'm justI always learn something in that
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class.
And I know Dr. Augustina, youare such a powerful speaker.
What is some of those reallydeep topics that you love
talking about in your life classabout women's history? What are
some of those lectures ordiscussions that you come in all
the time, it's those few topicsthat just are such, you know,
(05:41):
resonate with your students.
I think the most important thingis for the students to begin to
understand why it's important tolearn this history. I call it
the history of the left out. Sogirdle Otto, the historian said
women were left out of history,and they were deprived
education. Both of those thingsare changing. Today, we're
(06:05):
getting education, and morewomen are being put back into
history. And I tell them, and Ireally believe it's important.
If we're building on afoundation of history that only
has what men did. We're buildingon a foundation with some
missing cinderblocks. So true.And we're building on a flimsy
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foundation. Don't be afraid oflearning history, learn that
history, learn the women thatwere back there, that should be
inspiring you today. That's whatI say to them.
So when you're building yourhouse, okay, who are the female
leaders that inspire yourfoundation?
When I built my house, probablymy grandmother, who came from
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Ireland at 19 years old, was anonly child was put on a boat,
and was sent to America to sendmoney back to help her
grandmother and great and greatgrandmother. How many people
have a grandmother like that?
Many? And how about you as well,if you had to kind of build this
foundation, who would be thosepowerful women that have helped
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you build that foundation andthose goals for you of where you
are now?
My mother? At dinner? We wouldalways talk about something
current events. You know what itwas happening here? What
happened there and that I'dasked her sometimes you give me
the background, historicalbackground, but it was always
what is happening. My parentsread two newspapers a day. And I
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do I'm in that habit now. But itwas always dinner was something.
It was just interesting. Itwasn't always what you did in
school today, a little bit ofthat, but a lot of was, what did
you see what this happened? Didyou hear about that. And I think
that really got me going on thatat that helped me I ended up
being a political science major,and college. And I've been in a
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lot of discussion groups, notjust book clubs. And it really,
I think it got me started itgave me the spark.
Now, when you obviously we Ilove that you said about reading
to newspapers, I also loved whenthe newspaper came to the house,
and I would go and get it. And Iwould also every month of the
paper, you know, boy would likeknock on the door, and I'd give
(08:22):
him money and everything that'skind of going away. And we're
getting are you know, and bothof you are and both of you are
teaching in a society of veryhighly technology, you know,
driven, you know, topics. Sowhen you go into class, how are
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your How are your students inthis 50 Plus community? How are
they obtaining their theircurrent events to stay current
and learning?
I think a lot of them read. Infact, if I were to look at
history in general of women'shistory, the number one thing
for women that made change werewomen who read and had access to
(09:04):
books. So I happen to teach atthe library because it's one of
Rowan's places that they use,and there'll be ladies in their
class with three books. I alsobrought so we're still in the
books, but also, they know howto search for knowledge. A lot
of them listen to NPR. So youknow, they know and we talked
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about that. And I also tellthem, Don't keep this a secret.
Teach it to your children, yourgrandchildren, buy them books,
read these books with them. Soyou can get past just there are
still books today. You can getpast technology, right? And you
can use technology. Sure. Andyou and my grandson I used to
(09:47):
say, Son, that phone can do morethan text message and hit the
SMS question. I say let's lookit up.
I have my students in my class.I always say how it's amazing.
We have a supercomputer in thepalm Have our hands to be able
to access. You know anything,Isabel, if if you were to give
(10:08):
advice right now to young womenwho want to start their lifelong
learning career, what would youtell them? What advice would you
give young women who want tokind of take that journey that
you took and be inspired?
To have an open mind? I have a17 year old granddaughter. And
(10:30):
when I was in Jackie's class,she had recommended several
books. So I got these books forSarah. And we got to talk about
them. And then she did a bigproject in class because she had
the books already, the fact. Andit could be open, listen to
others, don't just go down onepath. And I'm very pleased, we
have discussions, mygranddaughter and I, and she
(10:53):
really is out there learning,meaning different people.
And Jackie, how would you whatwould you tell the young women
of today,
I would tell them to not limitthemselves, I would tell them to
be willing to stretch. Becausewhen you start college, even if
you if you know, if you thinkyou know what you want, it may
(11:15):
not necessarily turn out to bewhat you thought you wanted. And
don't limit yourself and don'tlet others limit you. Think
about what you want. Have avoice Yes. Don't always see your
parents might want something foryou. But what you want is really
what you have to discover. Anddon't be afraid to make
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mistakes.
And I love the Don't be afraid.And what are some of the what
what are what's important toyou, that you hope your students
learn in your class,
what I would hope my studentswere learning class, that there
are other views. Oftentimes,we'll have a discussion and
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people come with a set view or aset idea. And after class, they
will say, I never thought of itthat way. That that's, that's
amazing things like that. Andthey learn in class and they
bring out other opinions. AndI'm very impressed that they
will say they didn't agree withit when they came in, but now
(12:17):
they understand better. And theyhave learned something. So I
think that that takes we all getthat way. I think that's very
important.
And I love that you use that Inever thought of it that way.
Because I think Jackie, when yousaid earlier about like, don't
limit you, or how could we havenot learned about women's
history? You know, we neverthought of it that way. We never
(12:40):
thought to learn women'shistory. Right? And why is that
so powerful today? Why? Whyshould we learn about these
powerful women in women'shistory? Why Why should we do
that? Why should we be learningabout this?
We should do it for two reasons.One to respect them, and what
they accomplished. And thesecond is to have them as our
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mentors and models. We need todo it for both reasons. I mean,
to not know, we live in we livein Burlington County here, Mount
Laurel, there's a Alice Paulhouse down the street. And we
should know Alice Paul, do youknow how many people don't know
Alice Paul, in BurlingtonCounty, we have the one of the
(13:24):
best Underground Railroadmuseums with the most amazing
woman named Louise Callaway. Andso many people haven't been
there. So one of the things Itell them in my class, if they
say they haven't been there, Isay go, I used to take them
there. But unfortunately, thepandemic change that. But we
need to have these, we need togive them the respect. We need
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to give the history, therespect. And when I have someone
in my background, and I say,wow, look what she did. She
overcame things that I didn'teven know she overcame. And
there are so many women likethat, you know, I could spend, I
don't have to worry about whatI'm going to do with the rest of
my life. Because there's toomuch history for me to learn.
(14:10):
I know when we were speaking,you said when I started teaching
this class, you felt that youwrote a second dissertation
already on women's history. AndI thought that was really
powerful. That's how, and I lovethat you've connected your life
to lifelong learning. Becausewhen I was telling you about how
I recently had gotten mydoctorate, how old were you and
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you got your doctorate? 49. Soyou're continuing on this
journey of your learning, butthen sharing it with the others.
In our life program, how doesthat make you feel that you've
just been on this continuoustrack of lifelong learning?
It's actually the only thing youcan do. If you do that you won't
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start you can either learn andgrow or you can die. You can be
on a growth path path, or youcan be on a Dying path. And just
because you're old, doesn't meanyou have to start dying.
Yeah, and I think a lot ofpeople feel like, okay, I'm
retired or I'm stopped working,I don't have to do you know,
there's nothing more to do butbut with rcbc, having this life
(15:14):
program and all these reallyunique classes that open you up
to so many, like you said,Isabelle perspectives, that
people just don't realize thatit's there for them. And I think
in like you said in BurlingtonCounty, that there's so many
things to learn, and also,obviously, the library full of
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books that are still there. Soit's about what makes you keep
coming back for 11 years now. Orif you want to say after a year,
you took over this class 11years now keep coming back and
teaching this class, what keepsyou motivated to be that
lifelong learner, of the newcurrent information and events,
(15:59):
and then the lifelonginstructor.
While the class makes me alwaysfollow topics, which I enjoy
anyway. But this is a good placefor me to get up in front of a
room or in front of a monitorthese days. And just, there's
just so much in caravans, wetalk about environmental issues,
(16:22):
we talk about innovations, wetalk about some history,
historical events, and thingslike that. And we just, there is
just so many topics and so muchto learn. And the I just really
get up on this, because I knowthe class members are gonna get
up on it, and we just we justtake off, we've arrived, do I
(16:42):
get up for class?
That's awesome. So what is whathas been maybe a kind of a ha
moment for you that a studenthas come and said something to
you, and you're like, Wow, I didthat, or I made them feel that
way. Or I opened them up forsomething was there any kind of
moment that you can rememberwhere it was just like, This is
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why I do what I do.
Often after class, someone willsay is about I never knew about
that. Just we were talking likesecretaries of states and each
state how effective they are onelections. We talk about
different things on climatechange. And, you know, I tried
to find different things fromthe paper and expand on it, or
(17:27):
in the news, and they aregrateful. And they say, you
know, they didn't know aboutthat, or they haven't thought of
it about that way. And thatmakes me feel like I did a good
job. Have you know, that they'rereally into it?
Sure. And what about you,Jackie, when you have a class?
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What has been those momentswhere, you know, if you remember
a moment where that student waslike, Oh, my gosh, this is such
a powerful moment for me. Orthey woke up and said, this is
like that aha moment. Do youremember any time?
I don't think there's any onebecause there's just so much of
it? I think Sure. The thingabout my teaching is that I have
fun. And I think fun iscontagious. I think useless. I'm
(18:12):
passionate. I bring that passionto my teaching. And then they in
turn, bring it back. So my classis a little bit different than
her because I have to plansomething ahead of time, I have
to tell some stories. I call itI call myself a storyteller. And
I believe that in 2016, one ofthe things I saw in 2016 was
(18:33):
that women started to wake upnot just my woman in my classes,
but women in general. And theystarted to understand that
things they took for grantedcould be taken away. And that's
what's been excited. I call thismaybe possibly the new wave of
feminism. You know, I powerful,I marched in 2016. And some
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people in my class marched. Itook some of the people my class
over to the RB G thing inPhiladelphia, I took my classes
on field trips, I took them tothe our spa house, I took them
to the Underground RailroadMuseum. It's just been what is
better than getting up in themorning and knowing you're gonna
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have a lovely discussion withsome really bright woman. Men
can come to by the way, womenhistory. Yes, we
want it. We want to make surethat the men know that they can
sign up and
yesterday I had a man in myclass some woman bring their
husbands. I took a group of men,a woman from Burlington County,
to Seneca Falls, New York andAuburn New York. So I didn't I
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haven't kept it to the class.
Well, it seems like you keepyour class fun. How do you
continually do that week afterweek? Because I know sometimes
instructors, you know, we getburned out. So how do you keep
at at this age, you keep the fungoing?
Because I'm enjoying myself. Andyou know, because, like I said,
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I get up Every morning and Ilearned something new. And when
you're learning something new,and you become enthusiastic
about your learning, you want toshare it. I mean, I teach.
Yes, Isabelle, I'd like to addto that I've been in Jackie's
classes, she really gets yougoing. It's very enthusiastic.
She's so has so much informationready. And the films, everything
(20:22):
are under trips. There is shejust spreads her enthusiasm is
contagious.
I love that word contagious. Howcan we get people interested?
And in the Life program, whatwould you share with them about
the life program?
Well, I would I, like you saidlearning is for everyone. And I
(20:45):
would also say sometimes I'veeven forget, it's that I would
also say learning is forever.Learning is for ever. So it
doesn't matter how old you are,or even how limited you are in
terms of I mean, when I look at92 year old whiz Callaway, she
just gave up her driver'slicense, but she's still
(21:07):
teaching. So learning isforever. And if you stop
learning, you start dying.Simple. So don't stop learning.
Why is continuing, Ed importantto you, Isabel? Because we
already just heard from fromJackie,
(21:29):
why is important to me? Yeah, Ienjoy learning new things.
There's a lot. You can havediscussions with your family and
your friends. And there's justso much out there, the world is
changing. And it's there's justso many things, we had drone
demonstrations, and you know,we've heard about drones, but we
never had one in the classroom,then we had it outside with the
(21:50):
big drones, those experiences, Iwouldn't know we went to the
Burlington County Public Safetyfacility. And that was a
wonderful tour, even on thefiring range. I mean, it was
just things you heard about, butyou haven't experienced. So that
is very important to me. And onething about the life program,
I've always been impressed. Andno matter what class I've taken,
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Jackie's class, my class, theGerman class, some other history
classes, the people in thoseclasses are just very involved,
very active. They have amazinglives. And they're not just
saying I'm 70, I'm 80, I'm 90,this is it. They they're just so
into things. And it's great tobe with these people, they
really inspire you.
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Who inspires you, Jackie,
people inspire me or the womanand this is another part of the
Claire's the woman who areworking in the trenches for
change and error that'shappening today. So even though
I teach history, we also bringit forward to who is working in
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the trenches today to fight forthe issues that impact women. We
are I tell people, you you don'tvote, a party, you vote what
matters for you. And women haveto be voting for that for all
women. All women, we need to besupporting each other. That's
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the most important thing womencan do today. Not let's not
compete, no support cooperate,because if there is a future for
this planet, it's gonna comefrom that.
How do you think women supportother women?
I think they support themselveseach other fully. Sometimes I've
(23:38):
been at work years ago, and, andthey there'll be some
competition. But other times,they be just somebody needs some
help. And then an explanation.Somebody's Another one was out
there to help maybe the womenare a little more observant. So
they pick up on these issues,these problems. And I see that
either very quietly, they helpeach other. And sometimes not,
(24:01):
maybe not so quietly, but theydo help.
Who has helped you along yourjourney.
A lot of people and it alwaysthis isn't always woman. And
that's important. And that'sokay. That's important to know,
that will make me inspired bythe male mentors in their life.
But like my mother was left awidow at 34. She had two
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daughters. And so that means Ilost my father. But what it also
means I ended up with a verywith a mother and she could have
done anything but what she did,she pulled herself up our
bootstraps went to work, workfor 32 straight years. And what
she did was she said to us againand again and again, get an
education. You never know what'sgoing to happen. Meaning Don't
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be overly dependent on a manbecause you could end up being
all by yourself. I'd have to getthis done. So that that's why I
ended up in school in 1960, whenthe rest of my peers weren't.
And Isabelle the same questionfor you, who inspired you and
who helped you along yourjourney.
I had some marvelous teachersalong the way, several of them
(25:14):
women, first comes to my my highschool chemistry teacher. And I
wasn't really into chemistry,but she really got to me, you
can do this. Look at it thisway, she spent a little more
time and we could talk and thatthat was the first time we've
really had that kind ofinteraction with a teacher. And
that really meant a lot to me.And then some other high school
(25:35):
teachers, senior history, thatwas very important. And then in
college, I did have a couplefemale instructors, and
certainly in grad school, and Iwas just impressed, impressive
to me that I could talk to them.And they would give me more
backgrounds and how they didthings. And that really opened
up thanks for me.
(25:56):
So we kind of talked abouteverybody that inspired us and
helped us along the way. And,and got us to where we are
today. And I have some inspiringI call them inspiring take care
of me cards, because I feel likeas women, we're always taking
care of others. And sometimes wedon't have time for ourselves.
(26:20):
So I pulled two cards from thistake care of me pile I have. And
they're questions that you cankind of ask in a conversation
and see kind of what happens.And the two cards that I push I
pulled today I wanted to askyou, so I'll start with you. Dr.
Augustine. What do you wish youhad more time for?
(26:43):
What do I wish I had more timefor? Well, probably. I wish I
could have more time for gettinga little bit more exercise. I
wish that I just went a mileonce a week, okay. And I've been
doing that for about 50 years.But you know, I don't get out.
(27:03):
And you know, I do get out andwalk but I can give myself
excuses. Sometimes we're notsure. And the most important
thing I want to have time for isof course, the people in my
life. Because once I die, I'mgoing to that's what that's what
matters I'm going to create. Iwant to create stories with
them. I had a grandson who justI have three grandsons in
(27:24):
college right now freshmen. Andbut my one grandfather lived
close to me. We used to havemovie dates, I miss my movie
dates with him. And I created asort of a feminist, Manson. And
I also taught him women'shistory. I have a couple of
movies in mind, I'd like to takehim to where we would take our
turns missing. You know, we takeour tours, he picked a movie, I
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picked the movie, and then wetalked about it.
And Isabelle I'm gonna pose thesame question to you. What do
you wish you had more time for?
I wish there were more hours inthe day. It seems to keep it
very busy. I tried to swim twiceweek, I walked three to five
miles a day to talk with myfriends on the phone, I would
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like to have more time to seethem. And always more time with
family would be great. And eventhough I am a reader, sometimes
I wish I had more time to sitdown to read another half an
hour.
And my second question from mycards. Dr. Augustine, what would
you do? If you knew you couldnot fail?
(28:30):
What would I do? If I do I couldfail? No, I'm not sure I'd want
to do anything if I knew I couldnot fail?
I don't think I'd want to knowthat. Why? Because it what's the
point? You know, if I'm going todo something, it's I'm going to
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stretch myself. And stretchingmyself means I might fail. And
if I'm not willing to fail, thenwhat's the point? You have to be
willing to fail? I think
that's such a positive piece forwomen. Because we always feel
that maybe we're not givingourselves that pat on the back
and that support that innersupport system, that we always
(29:12):
have to be better than that wecan't fail, but we should be
able to know that we can. Andit's okay to do that. Yes. And
is about what would you do? Ifyou know you could not fail?
Well, I don't have anengineering background. My
father was an engineer, Ithought it'd be interesting to
design a bridge. That would bereally interesting. If I don't
(29:34):
have the background to what Iwould do. I like to try new
things. And perhaps it would begood to know if I was trying
this new thing that it wouldwork out. Well. You just give it
a try and see what happens.Right otherwise you don't try
things.
Yeah, I think you have to beable to put yourself out there.
And I feel a lot of us feelmaybe stunted to do that. But I
(29:57):
think after speaking with youtwo wonderful women it, I think
we can accomplish anythingbecause you're both, you know,
amazing to speak to today. Andyou push the envelope, you know,
you push it forward, you keeplearning, you keep growing. And
you're so inspiring to yourstudents and the program hear
(30:18):
that I can't wait to take a lifecourse.
I'm excited I got a ways to go Igot
some time but I'm I'm I'm I wantto know when I can sign up. When
I find out, we'll have
to lower the age.
That's right. I agree with that.
So during the podcast, what I doevery every podcast is I'm I'm
(30:42):
writing down kind of key wordsthroughout our discussion here.
And what I'm going to do is I'mjust going to read some of these
key words as kind of likehashtags on your life. And then
I'm going to ask each one of youwhat your personal motto hashtag
would be if you had to follow ahashtag. So I'm just going to
read some words that that I'vewritten down from our discussion
(31:04):
today. So you can kind of takeit all in and to our listeners
as well. Analyze, inspiring takeoff history of the left out
what's happening secret, buybooks, open mind, not one path.
No limit, stretch, fun, passion,create. I never thought of it
(31:25):
that way. Respect, accomplish,learn and grow. Storyteller wake
up. new wave of feminism,contagious trenches for change,
supporting each other. What isyour personal motto? Jackie?
(31:46):
It's a good question. I think mypersonal model is probably that
that I have to keep learning. Ithink I I think I have to get up
every morning and be open tolearning. And that's what's
going to keep me going. I mean,if I'm open to learning that I
(32:08):
always have something to doevery day. Right? Yeah. Love it.
Life is not boring.
Definitely not. And you Isabel.
I do have a personal motto,develop my last years at work.
And I must admit, I borrowed itfrom hockey great Wayne Gretzky.
You miss every shot you don'ttake. So just try it. See how it
(32:33):
goes?
It's right.
I love it. I want to thank Dr.Cassini and Mrs. Isabel adass
for joining us today. Pleasevisit our website for more
information about our deiinitiatives at our committees at
www.rcbc.edu/diversity. If youwant to hear from women who lead
and inspire this podcast is foryou. You've been listening to
(32:56):
the rcbc Baroness podcast, whichhighlights women in leadership
while encouraging listeners tobuild their skills, connect with
the community and visualize theopportunities available to women
in various professions. For moreinformation about this podcast,
and other podcasts available onthe rcbc Podcast Network, visit
(33:17):
our cbc.edu/podcast andsubscribe to the rcbc bareness
podcast, wherever you tune infor a female perspective into
the Burlington County community.You have been listening to the
Baroness Podcast Take care.Thanks.
Jason Varga (33:34):
You've been listening to the rcbc bareness
podcast, which highlights womenin leadership while encouraging
listeners to build their skills,connect with the community and
visualize the opportunitiesavailable to women in various
professions. For moreinformation about this podcast
or other podcasts available onthe rcbc Podcast Network, visit
rcbc.edu/podcast And be sure tosubscribe to the rcbc bareness
(33:54):
podcast available on allstreaming platforms.
Welcome to Rowan College a Burlington County's
Baroness Podcast. I'm Dr. BrookeMailhiot program chair and
assistant professor of ourentertainment technologies
department. I am the chair ofthe Women's Advocacy Group a
subcommittee of the President'sAdvisory Council on diversity,
equity and inclusion. Thismonthly series highlights women
in leadership while encouraginglisteners to build their skills,
(00:24):
connect with the community andvisualize the opportunities
available to women in variousprofessions. Tune in for a
female perspective on theBurlington County community. We
are here to listen to theseamazing women. If you want to
hear from women who lead andinspire this podcast is for you.
(00:46):
Welcome to our January podcast anew year a new year and always
celebrating life and creatingour New Year's resolutions for
2023. And today we will bediscussing life, but not life
that you really think life as itrelates to what here at Rowan
College of Burlington Countysuggests life is during our life
(01:10):
program. Those of you that don'tknow RCBC's LIFE program. It is
learning is for everyone. Andthis program is geared towards
our life long learning communityfor those aged 50 plus the
opportunity to pursue and formaleducational goals through a
broad range of classes taught byvolunteer instructors. And
(01:31):
today, we have two wonderful,fantastic life instructors
joining us today, Isabel atus,and 11 year instructor and Dr.
Jackie Augustine, a 10 yearveteran of the Life program
teaching women's history.Ladies, thank you so much for
joining us today. Thank you.What was really interesting when
(01:55):
we talked before the podcasttoday, Dr. Augustina, you had
said something that was somoving to me about your life.
And it was kind of like whenyour life took off, I think you
had said that you looked back atyour 1964 College yearbook. And
your Social Studies facultyconsisted of 16 males and two
(02:20):
females with no racialdiversity. And you had called
that the fog of patriarchy. AndI thought that was so powerful
when we spoke. Can you tell meabout that moment that kind of
set your life off?
Well, I think that when I firstbecame interested in women's
(02:42):
history quite by accident, Ilooked back at my life. And I
said I didn't I don't know anyof this history. How can that
be? And then I thought about Ihave four degrees. I went
through all this education, andjust how many female professors
did I have? I could count themon one hand. Think about that
(03:05):
for saying yeah, and I couldcount the number of female
professors on one hand. Wow. Sothat's when I picked up my
yearbook and look back at Rowan,which is then was called
Glassboro. state for the record.And I said, well, there are
hardly any female professors inmy college. So what I call the
(03:28):
fog of patriarchy is thatpatriarchy existed and we are
living in the fog because wedon't see it. That's the font.
It is. And
what's really interesting isIsabel for you, you know, Jackie
teaches the women's history, butyou also kind of have a spin off
(03:50):
class. And I know it is heavilyfemale. Can you tell us a little
bit about your life class?
Okay, my life class is calledfrom the left. I did not start
it. I took over after fourmonths, the man who was doing it
asked me to take it overtemporarily. And 11 years later,
I'm still doing it. It's it'sKevin events class. And I have
(04:13):
males and females in my class.And I don't really lecture I
introduce a subject and I send atopics list with links so we can
start a discussion. But when Istart talking about what we're
going to discuss, all of asudden, the class just takes
off. They they the class membersmake the class they get so
(04:35):
excited. They have differentviews. They have different
backgrounds. They use differentsources for information. And I
just look forward to every classbecause these people are just so
fantastic.
Why is it important for ourfemale population to take a
class like yours?
I think it's important becauseyou know what's going on. And
(04:58):
these people the women speak up,they have very good, they
analyze things. They just don'tthey, they give comments, they
analyze they, they look up moreinformation. And it's just very
inspiring to see how these womenand the men also, they just take
off in that class. And I'm justI always learn something in that
(05:19):
class.
And I know Dr. Augustina, youare such a powerful speaker.
What is some of those reallydeep topics that you love
talking about in your life classabout women's history? What are
some of those lectures ordiscussions that you come in all
the time, it's those few topicsthat just are such, you know,
(05:41):
resonate with your students.
I think the most important thingis for the students to begin to
understand why it's important tolearn this history. I call it
the history of the left out. Sogirdle Otto, the historian said
women were left out of history,and they were deprived
education. Both of those thingsare changing. Today, we're
(06:05):
getting education, and morewomen are being put back into
history. And I tell them, and Ireally believe it's important.
If we're building on afoundation of history that only
has what men did. We're buildingon a foundation with some
missing cinderblocks. So true.And we're building on a flimsy
(06:28):
foundation. Don't be afraid oflearning history, learn that
history, learn the women thatwere back there, that should be
inspiring you today. That's whatI say to them.
So when you're building yourhouse, okay, who are the female
leaders that inspire yourfoundation?
When I built my house, probablymy grandmother, who came from
(06:51):
Ireland at 19 years old, was anonly child was put on a boat,
and was sent to America to sendmoney back to help her
grandmother and great and greatgrandmother. How many people
have a grandmother like that?
Many? And how about you as well,if you had to kind of build this
foundation, who would be thosepowerful women that have helped
(07:15):
you build that foundation andthose goals for you of where you
are now?
My mother? At dinner? We wouldalways talk about something
current events. You know what itwas happening here? What
happened there and that I'dasked her sometimes you give me
the background, historicalbackground, but it was always
what is happening. My parentsread two newspapers a day. And I
(07:38):
do I'm in that habit now. But itwas always dinner was something.
It was just interesting. Itwasn't always what you did in
school today, a little bit ofthat, but a lot of was, what did
you see what this happened? Didyou hear about that. And I think
that really got me going on thatat that helped me I ended up
being a political science major,and college. And I've been in a
(08:01):
lot of discussion groups, notjust book clubs. And it really,
I think it got me started itgave me the spark.
Now, when you obviously we Ilove that you said about reading
to newspapers, I also loved whenthe newspaper came to the house,
and I would go and get it. And Iwould also every month of the
paper, you know, boy would likeknock on the door, and I'd give
(08:22):
him money and everything that'skind of going away. And we're
getting are you know, and bothof you are and both of you are
teaching in a society of veryhighly technology, you know,
driven, you know, topics. Sowhen you go into class, how are
(08:43):
your How are your students inthis 50 Plus community? How are
they obtaining their theircurrent events to stay current
and learning?
I think a lot of them read. Infact, if I were to look at
history in general of women'shistory, the number one thing
for women that made change werewomen who read and had access to
(09:04):
books. So I happen to teach atthe library because it's one of
Rowan's places that they use,and there'll be ladies in their
class with three books. I alsobrought so we're still in the
books, but also, they know howto search for knowledge. A lot
of them listen to NPR. So youknow, they know and we talked
(09:25):
about that. And I also tellthem, Don't keep this a secret.
Teach it to your children, yourgrandchildren, buy them books,
read these books with them. Soyou can get past just there are
still books today. You can getpast technology, right? And you
can use technology. Sure. Andyou and my grandson I used to
(09:47):
say, Son, that phone can do morethan text message and hit the
SMS question. I say let's lookit up.
I have my students in my class.I always say how it's amazing.
We have a supercomputer in thepalm Have our hands to be able
to access. You know anything,Isabel, if if you were to give
(10:08):
advice right now to young womenwho want to start their lifelong
learning career, what would youtell them? What advice would you
give young women who want tokind of take that journey that
you took and be inspired?
To have an open mind? I have a17 year old granddaughter. And
(10:30):
when I was in Jackie's class,she had recommended several
books. So I got these books forSarah. And we got to talk about
them. And then she did a bigproject in class because she had
the books already, the fact. Andit could be open, listen to
others, don't just go down onepath. And I'm very pleased, we
have discussions, mygranddaughter and I, and she
(10:53):
really is out there learning,meaning different people.
And Jackie, how would you whatwould you tell the young women
of today,
I would tell them to not limitthemselves, I would tell them to
be willing to stretch. Becausewhen you start college, even if
you if you know, if you thinkyou know what you want, it may
(11:15):
not necessarily turn out to bewhat you thought you wanted. And
don't limit yourself and don'tlet others limit you. Think
about what you want. Have avoice Yes. Don't always see your
parents might want something foryou. But what you want is really
what you have to discover. Anddon't be afraid to make
(11:36):
mistakes.
And I love the Don't be afraid.And what are some of the what
what are what's important toyou, that you hope your students
learn in your class,
what I would hope my studentswere learning class, that there
are other views. Oftentimes,we'll have a discussion and
(11:56):
people come with a set view or aset idea. And after class, they
will say, I never thought of itthat way. That that's, that's
amazing things like that. Andthey learn in class and they
bring out other opinions. AndI'm very impressed that they
will say they didn't agree withit when they came in, but now
(12:17):
they understand better. And theyhave learned something. So I
think that that takes we all getthat way. I think that's very
important.
And I love that you use that Inever thought of it that way.
Because I think Jackie, when yousaid earlier about like, don't
limit you, or how could we havenot learned about women's
history? You know, we neverthought of it that way. We never
(12:40):
thought to learn women'shistory. Right? And why is that
so powerful today? Why? Whyshould we learn about these
powerful women in women'shistory? Why Why should we do
that? Why should we be learningabout this?
We should do it for two reasons.One to respect them, and what
they accomplished. And thesecond is to have them as our
(13:01):
mentors and models. We need todo it for both reasons. I mean,
to not know, we live in we livein Burlington County here, Mount
Laurel, there's a Alice Paulhouse down the street. And we
should know Alice Paul, do youknow how many people don't know
Alice Paul, in BurlingtonCounty, we have the one of the
(13:24):
best Underground Railroadmuseums with the most amazing
woman named Louise Callaway. Andso many people haven't been
there. So one of the things Itell them in my class, if they
say they haven't been there, Isay go, I used to take them
there. But unfortunately, thepandemic change that. But we
need to have these, we need togive them the respect. We need
(13:48):
to give the history, therespect. And when I have someone
in my background, and I say,wow, look what she did. She
overcame things that I didn'teven know she overcame. And
there are so many women likethat, you know, I could spend, I
don't have to worry about whatI'm going to do with the rest of
my life. Because there's toomuch history for me to learn.
(14:10):
I know when we were speaking,you said when I started teaching
this class, you felt that youwrote a second dissertation
already on women's history. AndI thought that was really
powerful. That's how, and I lovethat you've connected your life
to lifelong learning. Becausewhen I was telling you about how
I recently had gotten mydoctorate, how old were you and
(14:30):
you got your doctorate? 49. Soyou're continuing on this
journey of your learning, butthen sharing it with the others.
In our life program, how doesthat make you feel that you've
just been on this continuoustrack of lifelong learning?
It's actually the only thing youcan do. If you do that you won't
(14:52):
start you can either learn andgrow or you can die. You can be
on a growth path path, or youcan be on a Dying path. And just
because you're old, doesn't meanyou have to start dying.
Yeah, and I think a lot ofpeople feel like, okay, I'm
retired or I'm stopped working,I don't have to do you know,
there's nothing more to do butbut with rcbc, having this life
(15:14):
program and all these reallyunique classes that open you up
to so many, like you said,Isabelle perspectives, that
people just don't realize thatit's there for them. And I think
in like you said in BurlingtonCounty, that there's so many
things to learn, and also,obviously, the library full of
(15:36):
books that are still there. Soit's about what makes you keep
coming back for 11 years now. Orif you want to say after a year,
you took over this class 11years now keep coming back and
teaching this class, what keepsyou motivated to be that
lifelong learner, of the newcurrent information and events,
(15:59):
and then the lifelonginstructor.
While the class makes me alwaysfollow topics, which I enjoy
anyway. But this is a good placefor me to get up in front of a
room or in front of a monitorthese days. And just, there's
just so much in caravans, wetalk about environmental issues,
(16:22):
we talk about innovations, wetalk about some history,
historical events, and thingslike that. And we just, there is
just so many topics and so muchto learn. And the I just really
get up on this, because I knowthe class members are gonna get
up on it, and we just we justtake off, we've arrived, do I
(16:42):
get up for class?
That's awesome. So what is whathas been maybe a kind of a ha
moment for you that a studenthas come and said something to
you, and you're like, Wow, I didthat, or I made them feel that
way. Or I opened them up forsomething was there any kind of
moment that you can rememberwhere it was just like, This is
(17:04):
why I do what I do.
Often after class, someone willsay is about I never knew about
that. Just we were talking likesecretaries of states and each
state how effective they are onelections. We talk about
different things on climatechange. And, you know, I tried
to find different things fromthe paper and expand on it, or
(17:27):
in the news, and they aregrateful. And they say, you
know, they didn't know aboutthat, or they haven't thought of
it about that way. And thatmakes me feel like I did a good
job. Have you know, that they'rereally into it?
Sure. And what about you,Jackie, when you have a class?
(17:47):
What has been those momentswhere, you know, if you remember
a moment where that student waslike, Oh, my gosh, this is such
a powerful moment for me. Orthey woke up and said, this is
like that aha moment. Do youremember any time?
I don't think there's any onebecause there's just so much of
it? I think Sure. The thingabout my teaching is that I have
fun. And I think fun iscontagious. I think useless. I'm
(18:12):
passionate. I bring that passionto my teaching. And then they in
turn, bring it back. So my classis a little bit different than
her because I have to plansomething ahead of time, I have
to tell some stories. I call itI call myself a storyteller. And
I believe that in 2016, one ofthe things I saw in 2016 was
(18:33):
that women started to wake upnot just my woman in my classes,
but women in general. And theystarted to understand that
things they took for grantedcould be taken away. And that's
what's been excited. I call thismaybe possibly the new wave of
feminism. You know, I powerful,I marched in 2016. And some
(18:56):
people in my class marched. Itook some of the people my class
over to the RB G thing inPhiladelphia, I took my classes
on field trips, I took them tothe our spa house, I took them
to the Underground RailroadMuseum. It's just been what is
better than getting up in themorning and knowing you're gonna
(19:17):
have a lovely discussion withsome really bright woman. Men
can come to by the way, womenhistory. Yes, we
want it. We want to make surethat the men know that they can
sign up and
yesterday I had a man in myclass some woman bring their
husbands. I took a group of men,a woman from Burlington County,
to Seneca Falls, New York andAuburn New York. So I didn't I
(19:39):
haven't kept it to the class.
Well, it seems like you keepyour class fun. How do you
continually do that week afterweek? Because I know sometimes
instructors, you know, we getburned out. So how do you keep
at at this age, you keep the fungoing?
Because I'm enjoying myself. Andyou know, because, like I said,
(19:59):
I get up Every morning and Ilearned something new. And when
you're learning something new,and you become enthusiastic
about your learning, you want toshare it. I mean, I teach.
Yes, Isabelle, I'd like to addto that I've been in Jackie's
classes, she really gets yougoing. It's very enthusiastic.
She's so has so much informationready. And the films, everything
(20:22):
are under trips. There is shejust spreads her enthusiasm is
contagious.
I love that word contagious. Howcan we get people interested?
And in the Life program, whatwould you share with them about
the life program?
Well, I would I, like you saidlearning is for everyone. And I
(20:45):
would also say sometimes I'veeven forget, it's that I would
also say learning is forever.Learning is for ever. So it
doesn't matter how old you are,or even how limited you are in
terms of I mean, when I look at92 year old whiz Callaway, she
just gave up her driver'slicense, but she's still
(21:07):
teaching. So learning isforever. And if you stop
learning, you start dying.Simple. So don't stop learning.
Why is continuing, Ed importantto you, Isabel? Because we
already just heard from fromJackie,
(21:29):
why is important to me? Yeah, Ienjoy learning new things.
There's a lot. You can havediscussions with your family and
your friends. And there's justso much out there, the world is
changing. And it's there's justso many things, we had drone
demonstrations, and you know,we've heard about drones, but we
never had one in the classroom,then we had it outside with the
(21:50):
big drones, those experiences, Iwouldn't know we went to the
Burlington County Public Safetyfacility. And that was a
wonderful tour, even on thefiring range. I mean, it was
just things you heard about, butyou haven't experienced. So that
is very important to me. And onething about the life program,
I've always been impressed. Andno matter what class I've taken,
(22:13):
Jackie's class, my class, theGerman class, some other history
classes, the people in thoseclasses are just very involved,
very active. They have amazinglives. And they're not just
saying I'm 70, I'm 80, I'm 90,this is it. They they're just so
into things. And it's great tobe with these people, they
really inspire you.
(22:35):
Who inspires you, Jackie,
people inspire me or the womanand this is another part of the
Claire's the woman who areworking in the trenches for
change and error that'shappening today. So even though
I teach history, we also bringit forward to who is working in
(22:55):
the trenches today to fight forthe issues that impact women. We
are I tell people, you you don'tvote, a party, you vote what
matters for you. And women haveto be voting for that for all
women. All women, we need to besupporting each other. That's
(23:17):
the most important thing womencan do today. Not let's not
compete, no support cooperate,because if there is a future for
this planet, it's gonna comefrom that.
How do you think women supportother women?
I think they support themselveseach other fully. Sometimes I've
(23:38):
been at work years ago, and, andthey there'll be some
competition. But other times,they be just somebody needs some
help. And then an explanation.Somebody's Another one was out
there to help maybe the womenare a little more observant. So
they pick up on these issues,these problems. And I see that
either very quietly, they helpeach other. And sometimes not,
(24:01):
maybe not so quietly, but theydo help.
Who has helped you along yourjourney.
A lot of people and it alwaysthis isn't always woman. And
that's important. And that'sokay. That's important to know,
that will make me inspired bythe male mentors in their life.
But like my mother was left awidow at 34. She had two
(24:28):
daughters. And so that means Ilost my father. But what it also
means I ended up with a verywith a mother and she could have
done anything but what she did,she pulled herself up our
bootstraps went to work, workfor 32 straight years. And what
she did was she said to us againand again and again, get an
education. You never know what'sgoing to happen. Meaning Don't
(24:52):
be overly dependent on a manbecause you could end up being
all by yourself. I'd have to getthis done. So that that's why I
ended up in school in 1960, whenthe rest of my peers weren't.
And Isabelle the same questionfor you, who inspired you and
who helped you along yourjourney.
I had some marvelous teachersalong the way, several of them
(25:14):
women, first comes to my my highschool chemistry teacher. And I
wasn't really into chemistry,but she really got to me, you
can do this. Look at it thisway, she spent a little more
time and we could talk and thatthat was the first time we've
really had that kind ofinteraction with a teacher. And
that really meant a lot to me.And then some other high school
(25:35):
teachers, senior history, thatwas very important. And then in
college, I did have a couplefemale instructors, and
certainly in grad school, and Iwas just impressed, impressive
to me that I could talk to them.And they would give me more
backgrounds and how they didthings. And that really opened
up thanks for me.
(25:56):
So we kind of talked abouteverybody that inspired us and
helped us along the way. And,and got us to where we are
today. And I have some inspiringI call them inspiring take care
of me cards, because I feel likeas women, we're always taking
care of others. And sometimes wedon't have time for ourselves.
(26:20):
So I pulled two cards from thistake care of me pile I have. And
they're questions that you cankind of ask in a conversation
and see kind of what happens.And the two cards that I push I
pulled today I wanted to askyou, so I'll start with you. Dr.
Augustine. What do you wish youhad more time for?
(26:43):
What do I wish I had more timefor? Well, probably. I wish I
could have more time for gettinga little bit more exercise. I
wish that I just went a mileonce a week, okay. And I've been
doing that for about 50 years.But you know, I don't get out.
(27:03):
And you know, I do get out andwalk but I can give myself
excuses. Sometimes we're notsure. And the most important
thing I want to have time for isof course, the people in my
life. Because once I die, I'mgoing to that's what that's what
matters I'm going to create. Iwant to create stories with
them. I had a grandson who justI have three grandsons in
(27:24):
college right now freshmen. Andbut my one grandfather lived
close to me. We used to havemovie dates, I miss my movie
dates with him. And I created asort of a feminist, Manson. And
I also taught him women'shistory. I have a couple of
movies in mind, I'd like to takehim to where we would take our
turns missing. You know, we takeour tours, he picked a movie, I
(27:46):
picked the movie, and then wetalked about it.
And Isabelle I'm gonna pose thesame question to you. What do
you wish you had more time for?
I wish there were more hours inthe day. It seems to keep it
very busy. I tried to swim twiceweek, I walked three to five
miles a day to talk with myfriends on the phone, I would
(28:06):
like to have more time to seethem. And always more time with
family would be great. And eventhough I am a reader, sometimes
I wish I had more time to sitdown to read another half an
hour.
And my second question from mycards. Dr. Augustine, what would
you do? If you knew you couldnot fail?
(28:30):
What would I do? If I do I couldfail? No, I'm not sure I'd want
to do anything if I knew I couldnot fail?
I don't think I'd want to knowthat. Why? Because it what's the
point? You know, if I'm going todo something, it's I'm going to
(28:50):
stretch myself. And stretchingmyself means I might fail. And
if I'm not willing to fail, thenwhat's the point? You have to be
willing to fail? I think
that's such a positive piece forwomen. Because we always feel
that maybe we're not givingourselves that pat on the back
and that support that innersupport system, that we always
(29:12):
have to be better than that wecan't fail, but we should be
able to know that we can. Andit's okay to do that. Yes. And
is about what would you do? Ifyou know you could not fail?
Well, I don't have anengineering background. My
father was an engineer, Ithought it'd be interesting to
design a bridge. That would bereally interesting. If I don't
(29:34):
have the background to what Iwould do. I like to try new
things. And perhaps it would begood to know if I was trying
this new thing that it wouldwork out. Well. You just give it
a try and see what happens.Right otherwise you don't try
things.
Yeah, I think you have to beable to put yourself out there.
And I feel a lot of us feelmaybe stunted to do that. But I
(29:57):
think after speaking with youtwo wonderful women it, I think
we can accomplish anythingbecause you're both, you know,
amazing to speak to today. Andyou push the envelope, you know,
you push it forward, you keeplearning, you keep growing. And
you're so inspiring to yourstudents and the program hear
(30:18):
that I can't wait to take a lifecourse.
I'm excited I got a ways to go Igot
some time but I'm I'm I'm I wantto know when I can sign up. When
I find out, we'll have
to lower the age.
That's right. I agree with that.
So during the podcast, what I doevery every podcast is I'm I'm
(30:42):
writing down kind of key wordsthroughout our discussion here.
And what I'm going to do is I'mjust going to read some of these
key words as kind of likehashtags on your life. And then
I'm going to ask each one of youwhat your personal motto hashtag
would be if you had to follow ahashtag. So I'm just going to
read some words that that I'vewritten down from our discussion
(31:04):
today. So you can kind of takeit all in and to our listeners
as well. Analyze, inspiring takeoff history of the left out
what's happening secret, buybooks, open mind, not one path.
No limit, stretch, fun, passion,create. I never thought of it
(31:25):
that way. Respect, accomplish,learn and grow. Storyteller wake
up. new wave of feminism,contagious trenches for change,
supporting each other. What isyour personal motto? Jackie?
(31:46):
It's a good question. I think mypersonal model is probably that
that I have to keep learning. Ithink I I think I have to get up
every morning and be open tolearning. And that's what's
going to keep me going. I mean,if I'm open to learning that I
(32:08):
always have something to doevery day. Right? Yeah. Love it.
Life is not boring.
Definitely not. And you Isabel.
I do have a personal motto,develop my last years at work.
And I must admit, I borrowed itfrom hockey great Wayne Gretzky.
You miss every shot you don'ttake. So just try it. See how it
(32:33):
goes?
It's right.
I love it. I want to thank Dr.Cassini and Mrs. Isabel adass
for joining us today. Pleasevisit our website for more
information about our deiinitiatives at our committees at
www.rcbc.edu/diversity. If youwant to hear from women who lead
and inspire this podcast is foryou. You've been listening to
(32:56):
the rcbc Baroness podcast, whichhighlights women in leadership
while encouraging listeners tobuild their skills, connect with
the community and visualize theopportunities available to women
in various professions. For moreinformation about this podcast,
and other podcasts available onthe rcbc Podcast Network, visit
(33:17):
our cbc.edu/podcast andsubscribe to the rcbc bareness
podcast, wherever you tune infor a female perspective into
the Burlington County community.You have been listening to the
Baroness Podcast Take care.Thanks.
Jason Varga (33:34):
You've been listening to the rcbc bareness
podcast, which highlights womenin leadership while encouraging
listeners to build their skills,connect with the community and
visualize the opportunitiesavailable to women in various
professions. For moreinformation about this podcast
or other podcasts available onthe rcbc Podcast Network, visit
rcbc.edu/podcast And be sure tosubscribe to the rcbc bareness
(33:54):
podcast available on allstreaming platforms.
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