May 15, 2023 • 36 mins
Gina Passarella, Editor-in-Chief of Global Legal Brands at ALM, and Lauren Brill, Professor and Higher Education Admissions Officer, explore empowering, connecting & supporting women in law with Dr. Mailhiot. Creating a space to enable women to gain confidence, skills and “trusting the process.” Building time for your family, yourself and your career.
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Episode Transcript
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Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (00:00):
Welcome to Rowan College a Burlington
counties Baroness Podcast. I'mDr. Brooke Mailhiot program
chair and assistant professor ofour entertainment technologies
department. I'm a co chair ofthe Women's Advocacy Group a
subcommittee of the President'sAdvisory Council on diversity,
equity and inclusion. Thismonthly series highlights women
in leadership, while encouraginglisteners to build their skills,
(00:22):
connect with the community andvisualize the opportunities
available to women in variousprofessions. Tune in for a
female perspective on theBurlington County community. We
are here to listen to theseamazing women. If you want to
hear from women who lead andinspire this podcast is for you.
(00:43):
Welcome to our May podcast thismonth, we are honoring women.
And this is basically what thebareness podcast is all about.
My guests today are GinaPassarella. And Lauren Brill,
and these two ladies, I feltwere perfect for me. Because we
have two powerful days thismonth that both of these women
(01:04):
celebrate the biggest event, ofcourse in May, ladies is
Mother's Day. Yes. Okay. Andthen I know both of these women
myself, because I'm a mother andI met them through my kids. But
the second one I'm not sure myguests know about might be a
surprise, but maybe they docelebrate that both of them have
this connection is that may 1 isLaw Day, did you either one of
(01:31):
you know that was all day.
Unknown (01:32):
So I know about Law Day. I know it exists. I didn't
know the exact date. So I'm justso happy that we can be here and
an honor that very special day.
Yes, yeah, I can't profess toknow that that was the day. But
I feel like every day is all dayin our world. So
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (01:46):
that's a great well, Law Day is an annual
observance noted in the legalcommunity for more than 60
years. These resources,celebrate the law and bring to
life, the role of students, thecourts and the Constitution. In
times of change. That is thedefinition of Law Day. And I
feel that it was great that Ibrought both of you on because I
(02:09):
feel both of you strongly havethis built into what you do day
in day out. And I'm gonna go toLauren first to introduce
yourself because I felt that thefirst part of that was bring to
life, the role of students andhow I met Lauren was she's a
mommy friend, our kids went topreschool together. I think when
(02:30):
they started in the three yearold class, I think that's right.
We met each other. And and Iknow how and Jean, I'm sure
we'll get into this this mommyconnection. I met her at
preschool. And eventually wetalked about what I was doing
what she was doing. And I hadher come on over to rcbc. And
(02:51):
she got an adjunct position andstarted being part of a role to
our students here at rcbc. So,Lauren, quickly introduce
yourself to our listeners.Absolutely.
Unknown (03:00):
Well, thank you so much for having me here. I'm so
honored to be part of thisprogram. And thanks to you for
helping me connect with rcbc.And I'm sure that some of what
we'll talk about today just youknow, using those connections to
find great opportunities. So areally short background for me.
I have many years of experiencepracticing law, specifically
commercial litigation at a largelaw firm in Philadelphia. But
(03:24):
then I made the switch Itransitioned to higher
education. I have been for thepast 10 years or so. Teaching
higher education legal typeclasses. I'm also working in law
school admissions. I really loveit. You know, it was it was it
was a big change for me, but Iknow I made the right decision.
I also am heavily involved inchild advocacy work. I'm doing
(03:46):
another thing that I love aswell. And I'm just happy to be
here today with everyone.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (03:51):
Well, thank you for joining us. I'm really
excited about our talk togetherand Gina our mommy connection
and Morristown I moved toMorristown and know a lot of
people. We met through a lot ofdifferent things at the school
and the kids and everything. ButI met Gina more personable at a
party. And she starts talking tome about all these like, amazing
(04:13):
thing she's doing. She's winningEmmys. She's writing this, she's
writing that and I'm like, I'mlike, what? And she's just
standing there, we're justtalking to like, I had no idea.
I didn't even know there's thiswhole world of legal like
journalism. And it's sobeautiful to share that because
I'm obviously have thejournalism background and then
(04:33):
to connect with you. So tell usa little bit about your
background and yourself, Gina.
Unknown (04:38):
I'll well first again, thank you so much for having us
on with the work that you dohere and the supportive women.
This is just awesome. And I'm soglad that we can be a part of
it. And yeah, so I am an editorin chief of global legal brands
at a company called ALM which islegal journalism company focused
on covering all differentaspects of the legal industry.
My particular area of focus thatI've done since I start arted
(05:01):
almost a couple decades agodoing this out of out of grad
school was the business of law.So how the legal industry
operates as a business and allof its financials and management
decisions and strategic goalsand things that I didn't even
know existed when I started andstill learn every day about. And
so it's been really fascinatingover the last couple of years to
(05:21):
follow the changes in theindustry and a lot of what
Lauren is working on and inprivate practice, and then the
legal education space, and seehow the industry is evolving and
using innovation, and then alsohow our own company in a media
company is evolving andinnovating. And there's been a
lot going on in the last coupleof decades. So lots to talk
(05:42):
about I'm sure that we could getinto in a little bit.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (05:44):
And what I think is really amazing, both of
you have such a huge resume ofstuff that you've done within
the within your field of careerand then outside. But how do you
manage? How do we how do wemanage with, I know you all have
families, and one of the biggestthings that like women, we you
(06:06):
know, we have our like we havethese amazing careers, right,
and we've been so privileged tohave this fabulous, you know,
career path. How do you jugglewith being a woman and being a
mom like, Lauren, what do youwhat do you take from that?
Unknown (06:22):
I don't know, I wish I could answer that question. It's
just, you guys are gonna tellme.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (06:27):
I have no idea. Everybody always asked me
and I'm like, I don't know, Ijust, you just got to do it.
It's like, it's like you just goright? You
Unknown (06:34):
just go. I think every day presents its new challenges.
I think one thing if you reallyenjoy what you're doing
professionally, I think thatgives you a really positive
mindset for the rest of your,your day, right? So when you're
when you're managing your kids,when you're managing all the
responsibilities that you haveat home, if you're doing
something professionally thatyou love, I think it just kind
(06:54):
of keeps you more positiveoverall. And you can kind of
just keep that attitude as muchas possible. I mean, do we lose
it sometime? Absolutely, ofcourse, we're human. But I think
that helps, too. And I think,you know, just making the time
for yourself as crazy as thatsounds, with all the other
responsibilities we haveprofessionally, and our family
just cutting out even if it's alittle bit of time you carve out
(07:16):
in the morning, get up beforeeveryone just have that time for
yourself to kind of set the pacefor the rest of the day. I think
that helps. But, you know, it's,it's something we all deal with.
And it's and it's not alwayseasy, but I think that you know,
just just focus on the on theself care, focus on trying to,
you know, keep things aspositive as possible in your in
your career. And that can kindof help your outlook on the rest
(07:36):
of your, your day in your yourworld.
That's such great advice. And Icouldn't agree with you more,
Lauren about when you love whatyou do. And I'm so fortunate
every day, I don't feel like I'mgetting up and going to work
every day. I'm excited for whatI'm going to learn what new is
going to happen. And I know thatthat's not always everybody's
situation. So I feel veryfortunate. But I tell people all
the time, particularly youngwomen in the workplace who are
(07:58):
coming to me, and maybe they'reabout to have kids and they say
how am I going to do this andit's like, it's not always going
to be pretty not everybody needsto know that you changed your
shirts three times, because thebaby spit up on it before you
left work, you're gonna getthere and it'll be fine. And
everything works out. And it'snot always going to be 100% here
and there. But I mean, a couplethings that I think help are
one, you know, leveraging thenetwork, the it takes a village
(08:20):
thing could not be more true. Togive my husband a ton of credit,
my mom who's at home right nowwatching my dental credit. I
mean, there's in the mommynetwork, right, the village of
friends that you that help getfolks to practice or where you
need to be. But from anemployment perspective, I mean,
I tell people all the time, Ithink working mothers are the
best employees you can have,because I don't want to curse on
(08:41):
the podcast, but I will theydon't have time for the
bullshit, right? Like, it's justeverything is cut out, you just
have to get things done. And youfind a way you just all of a
sudden become a lot moreefficient. And it's not always
easy, but it can it can be done.
I agree completely 100% and Ithink that network of friends so
that you do have that outletbecause you need it right you
need people who can relate towhat you're you're dealing with,
(09:03):
right you need to be able tovent you need to be able to help
other women in the situation,but also those professional
networks too. I think that's sohelpful to having a group of
women who, who share yourprofessional aspirations and
interests and things like that.And you can help each other
learn professionally, you canprovide mentorship to other
women who are you know, wantingto enter your profession or
(09:24):
they're in it and they want tomove in with it move up within
it. So I think having networksin all different aspects social
professional, I think is is sucha huge support system in
addition to you know, havinghaving a great family support
network if you do
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (09:38):
have that. And I can't obviously I support
both of you. I can't say morethat you both really shared
that. That village that supportsystem we had a few people in
previous podcasts they call ittheir divas you know that they
that they that they connect withand that they have and I love
that you both said you shared alittle bit about what you would
(09:59):
tell You know, people are whatyou shared? What would you
share? Now knowing where you arein, in your career, your young
self? What would you say toyourself now like, like, because
all of us are in probablycompletely different spaces than
what we thought when we were inour 20s? Or when you were, you
(10:20):
know, finishing law school,let's say, what would you go
back and tell yourself? If youcould just tell yourself
anything? Maybe it was somethinglike a motto or, or a tip or a
trick? What What would you goand tell your young, young
Lauren? Not that you're notyoung and beautiful? But your
your, your younger? Self? Yes,
Unknown (10:41):
yes, times have changed, I, I would definitely
tell my young self to be moreopen minded, because I think
when I made the decision to goto law school, and it was kind
of a crazy backstory, I wasactually focused on journalism
in college, but then thought,You know what, I want to focus
on a particular area ofjournalism. So maybe the law
would be the way to go, legalanalyst type of thing. So I kind
(11:04):
of thought, Okay, I'm going tofollow that path. Then, luckily,
I was open minded because Idecided, no, I want to practice
law. I did some internships andother things that really kind of
sold it, I started at the firm,I loved it, I thought, This is
what I want for the rest of mylife for my career, I still kept
that open minded kind of mottoin my head. And I think I'm glad
(11:26):
I did. Because I think if Ididn't, I would have thought,
This is my career for the restof my life. I need to prove it
to myself that I could becomepartner that I can work my way
up to the top of this firm. ButI had to kind of take a couple
of steps back and say, you know,what, what do I really want at
this point in my life? Do I wantto make a change? And I think
that being open minded reallyhelped me enter academia. And I
(11:47):
think had I not done that. Idon't know if I would have felt
as fulfilled in my career. SoI'm glad that I that I did that.
And I tell my students the samething, the ones who want to go
to law school, and they, youknow, they think they're
interested in it, but they'rejust not sure. And I said, it's
okay, you go to law school, youwill learn so many transferable
skills, there's so manyqualities that you'll gain in
(12:07):
law school that can enter intoanother field and really benefit
you in that way. So I think justjust knowing that you know, what
you might think you want toenter a certain career, and you
enter it and you decide you wantto change and that's, that's
totally fine. It's your life youneed to do what makes you happy.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (12:23):
What would you tell your younger self,
Unknown (12:25):
I love what you said, first of all arm because I think
the job I have now didn't evenexist when I started even within
your company, being open mindedabout what your path is, or in
other roles. So I think that'sso great. But I have two things
I would say. And they're they'resomewhat related. And one is
just, you know, give yourselfsome credit and grace, I
remember, when I got promoted tomy first editor and chief role
(12:48):
within the company, I waswalking to work that day, it was
such a different role from, fromwhat I had had, and I was
literally sick to my stomach,like, Oh, my goodness, my day to
day is going to change, I'm notgoing to do it. And maybe I'm
not going to be good enough atthis, maybe, maybe I'm not the
right person, shoot, should Ihave said yes to this. And I was
just sick. I didn't meet forthree days prior. And I get
there and I have my first week.And I'm like, this is this is
(13:08):
what I was meant to do. And youknow, I'm never gonna doubt
myself. I'm always maybe I'mnervous. Nerves are good. Nerves
are okay, right? Because thatmeans you care, you're
passionate, you want to goforward and do a good job. But
giving, you're trusting yourselfthat you can do it and trying
and try and being okay with thatchange and trying to go for
things. And the other thing Iwould just say, and it's
somewhat related to how you geton that path is raise your hand
(13:31):
for things, connect with peopleconnect with projects, connect
with other folks that might notbe in your direct lane, get
involved in as much as you can,that exposes you to new
opportunities, new people, newskills, I think that's just
where your name then pops intosomebody's head when the next
opportunity arises.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (13:49):
I absolutely love that the new
skills that networking gettingyour feet wet. You know, I think
giving our young women thoseopportunities, no matter what
profession, I think that's likea really big, a big deal. And I
think in you know, you had saidabout like you're in journalism,
(14:11):
you both are in legal. I was inTV production, it was very male
dominated industry. And I thinkit's obviously changed a little
bit since since we've been youknow, we were going to school,
and that was kind of our careerfield. Well, what would you say
(14:32):
now to young women, I guess, tokind of push them if they
weren't really considering thisprofession, or they were scared
to enter the profession. And itdoesn't really matter what field
of career but what would you sayto young women that might be
fearful about what they want todo with their life and they're
(14:55):
not sure
Unknown (14:58):
Yeah, well Oh, I'll give a stab at that answer. I
mean, like, in some respects,I'll admit that I never really
thought about, you know, whoelse am I going to be working
with? Or what is the environmentI didn't even know at a young
age, what to think about a workenvironment, I just kind of
knew, luckily enough, I wantedto do journalism. And I sought
that out. And I think, you know,it goes back to what I talked
(15:21):
about before, just being openminded, being involved, raising
your hand for things. And one ofthe things that I've learned
throughout my career is, there'snothing more powerful or no
skill set, I think that's morepowerful than life is about
relationships, it's about youremotional, your EQ is just as
important as your IQ in theworkplace. And so really just
(15:45):
getting to know people,interacting with folks and being
open to learning from them. Andjust raising your hand and
getting involved. I, I'll admitthat I don't always think about,
you know, is it mostly men inthe room? Is it mostly women, I
mean, that, and that is, thatcan be really an intimidating
thing. But when you're doingsomething you love when you're
(16:06):
willing to learn and askquestions. You know, it's not
about who else is in the room?It's about kind of what, what
are you taking in and learningfrom the situation? What are you
bringing back to the group andwith your experience? Because it
is I mean, there's no doubteverybody brings a different
perspective to the table. Andthey're also important. And so I
think just leaning into, what doyou bring to the conversation
(16:26):
and being open to learning fromothers, I think is really
important. But
yeah, I love that you said thatGina, like, especially about
those relationships and learningfrom others. I think that's,
that's hugely important,especially as a, as a young
female lawyer, young femaleentering the legal profession,
you know, and it's not so much amale dominated profession as
much as it was, you know, 10plus years ago, most of the
(16:48):
people entering law school orwomen these days, the majority
are, so it's definitelychanging. I think, you know, if
I were to talk to someone whowas in law school looking for
their first legal career, I'dprobably you know, let's say
they're looking into a firm, youknow, what are the women's
initiatives that this firm has,because many of them really do
promote their women'sinitiative, these initiatives
these days, because they want toget those, you know, high
(17:10):
performing women lawyers to tostart at their firms. So, you
know, really find out what arethose initiatives? What are they
doing? Are women in leadershippositions within the firm? Are
they on the executive committee?Are they on other committees
within the firm? Do they, youknow, do they help run the
organization? What do they do atthe firm? You know, what kind of
mentoring opportunities arethere in these in these firms or
(17:33):
other, you know, legalemployers, and you know, not
just their PR piece of it, like,what do they promote? But what
do they actually do? So talk topeople at the interview, talk to
people who know, people who workat that firm, or that legal
employer, what do they do? Dothey really value women? is
diversity, important to them?Are they committed to the
(17:53):
retention of women, to theadvancement of women attorneys,
I think that's really importantto have that information before
you make the decision where youwant to start your career. If I
can just follow up on that,because you raised such a good
point. And I, I cover the legalindustry, and law firms will
often talk to me about theirculture. And in the beginning, I
used to think it's just abuzzword, because they all say
when they describe what it is,they all say the exact same
(18:13):
thing, right? And so, but thereis there are cultures within
every organization has aculture, and they can be
dramatically different and doingyour homework, you know, as much
as I said, I didn't really knowto even do that, or think to do
it, I just kind of learned as Iwent, I mean, if you can do that
homework, on the front end, Ithink you're going to really
find you know, what type ofsupport is internal. And then
you also have to look at, youknow, just career wise, if this
(18:36):
is what I really want to do,okay, what organization will
support me and the lifestylethat I want? And what will what
do I need external to myorganization, the the family
life that I create, and thatthere's there's all sorts of
things that going into go intomaking you a success in your
career. And it's not just all inthat one organization.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (18:52):
Great points. And I love that both of
you talk about like, the supportsystem, your successes, your
your internal motivation to keepgoing to get yourself out there,
who for each one of you was thatperson? So each one of you were
saying, you know, go to the yournetwork get connected, the all
these people who's been yourpowerful network? Is it a group
(19:15):
of people? Is it one person thatsaid something to you one time
and that you took that and youran with it? What was that for
you? Was it a moment in time wasan event in time? I might be
stomping you.
Unknown (19:32):
I feel like there were so many positive influences, you
know, women that I'veencountered throughout my
career, I guess, to come to mindimmediately, and I'm sure there
are many, many more, but one wasa mentor that I had at the firm
when I started, you know, thisnew 27 year old new lawyer first
day I'm in this big firm, I feelkind of like, you know, how am I
(19:53):
going to like prove myself here,I need to do a great job. And so
I started talking to this lawyerwho had been there a few years
this also to a young lawyer, buta couple of years, you know,
senior to me, and she wasexperiencing kind of certain.
She was sort of a few yearsahead of me, not only
professionally, but just as faras you know, she was preparing
to get married. And theneventually she had her first
(20:13):
child. And so I was sort offollowing this path that she was
leading for me. And so all theseobstacles and things that she
encountered, I eventuallyencountered, and I could go to
her to kind of, you know, kindof seek help and kind of
guidance on how that that went.So I think that was super
helpful to me, and she just, youknow, encouraged me and she had
a mentor as well, who was afifth year senior to her. So I
think we all just kind of, youknow, helped each other. And
(20:35):
then I mentored someone, theother person who comes to mind
is, when I got my first teachingjob, this was a woman I met at
this open house at a collegethat I went to, you know,
randomly as I was practicing totry to get this adjunct
position, and met her for thefirst time, she called me and
offered me this job that theyneeded filled immediately, I was
still practicing, I was makingthis decision. And then we
(20:56):
became really good friends. Andshe had was a lawyer previously,
as well and entered highereducation. And she's done such
incredible things in highereducation at various
institutions. And, you know, Ijust looked to her, you know,
whenever I have any questions,I'll I'll call her she's been
through so much. And, you know,and she's also a motivator for
(21:16):
me to provide that guidance toother people who, who may need
it professionally.
Those are great examples. Andyeah, you, you stumped me in a
way that like, it's so hard topinpoint just a couple people
because it different phases inyour life, people come in, and
you don't might not even realizeat the time that wow, what an
impact they had. But I think ata professional level, I mean,
(21:37):
both men and women, my bosseshave really been tremendous
support networks. And one of youknow, sometimes it's through
their purposeful goal to advancewomen and to really help and
that's huge. Sometimes it'sjust, you know, and you touched
on this learn kind of somebodywho's going to walk you through
the internal politics of yourorganization, right and know the
(21:57):
things that you might not beable to ask your boss or it
could be your boss who's justreal with you, that's a really
special relationship you candevelop. And it's just somebody
who can help you understandlike, this is what's going on,
even beyond your jobdescription. This is how it all
fits together, this is what youshould avoid or what you should
strive for. And then just thosepeople, your your friends who
(22:17):
knew you when you know, from mycollege girlfriends are still we
get on and we talk about lifeand work and the things that you
can really two all together mymy mom friend network, which is
just like invaluable, and justpeople come in your life in
different times. And, you know,and then I always think about,
like, my mom, right? And what anexample, she was just she didn't
(22:37):
have anything like the careerpath I've had, but she was just
such a, she just always gotthings done, and was always this
calming presence. And, um,nothing. Certainly as my kids at
home, I'm not calm. But but youknow, just trying to think about
how can I, how can i She alwayshad always seemed like she had
the answers and we could solvethings together and we could get
(23:00):
through and anything wasattainable, and achievable. And
so having that mindset of, youknow, what do I want? And how do
I get there and, and beingfortunate enough to have people
around you that can help supportthat because that's essential.
You can't always do it on yourown,
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (23:15):
the support and how we get there and we
can't forget our social, socialand emotional support. And I
know Lauren, you had said thisand also Gina you had talked
about like, we need our time,like away from a lot of all this
right? So you know, we have ourwork life, we have our mom life,
(23:36):
but then we need time for us torejuvenate and, and figure out
what our life is going to beevery day day in day out and
carve that little section forus. How do each of you kind of
de stress, step away is thereand I know it's hard because we
could say it all day. I knowthere's days where I don't have
(23:58):
a minute to myself. I like gethome I'm like okay, dinner's
ready. Gonna be ready in 25minutes go get your baseball
outfit on. You get your lacrosseout. But did you pack your snack
for tomorrow? Like it's notsnap, but I know both of you're
laughing but you're like I'vebeen there. I know. Yeah. So
what do you do? Is there isthere is there an activity that
(24:19):
you enjoy? Is there a place yougo? Is it you know, something?
You love a hobby? What's yourWhat is that for you?
Unknown (24:30):
I would say I mean overall, like prioritizing
health is so important. And Ithink that like you know not
only physical health like if Ican get my workout soon I feel
good like I feel good I feellike I can I can take on this
day right whatever. Whatevercomes my way I can handle it
which may or may not be true,but at least it gives me that
feeling right? I think just likeyour your emotional like mental
(24:54):
health, like having those socialinteractions like making plans
with friends and keeping themregardless of what's going on.
You know, whatever is going onin your day like keeping those
those plans go out to dinnerwith friends, just just chat
have coffee with a friend. Andthat that time I think really
gives you, it energizes you. Youknow, I think just any
activities that you have, youknow, just, you know, reading
(25:16):
even reading for a half hourbefore bed, right? Like
sometimes I say to myself, gosh,I haven't read a whole book. And
you know, it's been like sixmonths and I love reading. So
just really making that time Ithink for yourself can be
helpful, you know, taking awalk, taking a break in the
middle of the day taking a walklistening to the Baroness
podcast.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (25:35):
Shameless plug. Shameless plug. Yes. Oh,
you're walking
Unknown (25:38):
around the block, right? Something like that. Just
making that time for yourself todo something that that you
really enjoy. And that relaxesyou and makes you feel good. So
I feel like I shouldn't say myguilty pleasure answer, which is
like sitting down on my bed andwatching murder mysteries. But
okay, I won't I just admittedthat we all love. My husband is
a little concerned. But that'sokay. So I mean, I totally agree
(25:59):
that take I often will wake upearly before the kids get up.
And if I if I have the energyand just check, have that calm
time do my spelling bee on NewYork Times that kind of thing.
But I love the getting out andmeeting friends doing an
activity something new, youknow, a date night that Is it
focused on just a newexperience. My husband and I
love antiquing. I think that'slike our thing we like anytime I
(26:21):
highly recommend go to Lancasterget a bed and breakfast go
antiquing. That's, you know, Ijust aged myself completely. But
those are our kind of guiltypleasures that we like that I
will admit. I mean, that's thisis probably an area where I fall
down more than any other whichis making that I'm not
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (26:39):
really it's really hard. I know it's really
hard. And I and I ask it in alot of my guests because like we
always put ourselves last right?Because I feel like women were
always givers. And it's like, wewere talking about that network.
And those connections. We'realways giving, always
connecting, and we're and andit's a lot like it's a lot and
(27:02):
then you don't realize you'relike well, it's the end of the
day and what you know, you didso much. But then you're like
whoosh, when can I just escapeand I think a lot of us feel bad
about that, like a lot of usfeel bad. Like we're even
thinking about that for us,right? You feel this guilt? Like
Unknown (27:17):
why am I making time for myself? When I have a pile
of laundry over here? I haven'teven thought about dinner. We
have no produce in the house.Like, I need to do something.
But you know,
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (27:27):
we have no live produce
Unknown (27:30):
nothing. But I think giving ourselves some leeway.
Like there are just some nightswhere you're like, you know
what, I'm not gonna make a wellbalanced meal tonight. Like it's
just not gonna hash it. Chicken
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (27:40):
like chicken nuggets. If I can find
froze a frozen vegetable. It'sbeen in there for like two
years. I'll figure it out thebottom of the freezer, I'll
shake. It'll be something green.I don't know what it'll be.
Unknown (27:51):
Yeah, that's totally true. And you know, and like,
you just go with it all youcan't do. I don't think your
kids expect you to do it all. Soyou do what you can. They know
their love. They're taken careof chicken nuggets? It
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (28:03):
is yeah. I mean, you know, you said you
can't do it all my motto is takeit one day at a time. Do you
have a motto that like, orsomething that you say
continually for yourself? Ormaybe it's your family? Or just
what's going on that you're justlike, Alright, I just do it one
day at a time. My mother used tosay that all the time. She says
you just take it one day at atime.
Unknown (28:24):
I think that's great. I mean, it's kind of a variant of
everything works out as itshould. It's almost for me,
though, it's maybe not as itshould. But everything however
it works out, it will be okay.We'll find our way through it.
You know, it kind of worked outas it should. This is the new
path we're on and we're gonnanavigate this.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (28:41):
I love that.
Unknown (28:42):
I love that I think like a similar theme like
tomorrow's a new day, right? Soif we have some challenges
today, and sometimes they seemreally tough, and how are we
going to get through this? Likewe have a fresh start tomorrow?
And then it'll be okay.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (28:54):
Do you use that motto? Do you think that
that goes for personal life toyour career in academia? I mean,
you see a lot of young minds andyou're kind of taking those
young minds to the next step.And you're seeing them in that
very, extremely vulnerableposition of of is this decision
(29:14):
and you're making the decision,right? I mean, I don't know if
we told everybody kind of whatyour day in day out is. Your
your job role right now?
Unknown (29:23):
Yeah. So um, so my job role in academia now is it's
kind of twofold. So I'm teachingso I teach mainly paralegal
classes, but I teach businesslaw right now. And then I've
also taught legal research andwriting legal technology
eDiscovery, other kinds ofbusiness law types of classes,
Intro to Paralegal Studies. AndI also work in admissions for a
(29:47):
law school. So reviewingapplications by the 1000s of,
you know, of students who areinterested in entering the legal
field. And, you know, I think alot of students it's, it's, you
know, I look back to when I wasIn college is trying to figure
out, okay, what path do I wantto take? And they don't
necessarily know, you know, andthey don't need to know, you
know, their first year ofcollege. They're taking, let's
(30:08):
say, a business law class,because it's, you know, required
under some sort of Gen Edcategory, but they don't know if
this is for them. And, you know,kind of the same sort of mottos
that were saying, you know,being open minded, you know, the
value of relationships, youknow, you know, sort of
volunteering to take the nextstep to go to go beyond what's
asked of you are all thingsthat, that they're mindful of,
(30:31):
and that they're aware of, andthey're here to kind of gain
that information and figure outwhat they want to do. And, you
know, even if they decided it'sokay, if they change their mind,
and I think that that's, thatthat's really important. So,
yeah, I think being part of thatprocess is an exciting thing,
because I think I can kind of,you know, give them that peace
of mind that, you know, it'sokay to not know, and that's why
(30:53):
you're here. And we can help youfigure it
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (30:55):
out. I think that's such a positive
thing. And for your inspirationof your writing, and I, you
know, you you travel around, youdo lots of very unique things.
I'm sure you have some veryyoung legal minds, young
journalists coming to you foradvice. What do you say to them?
(31:16):
Or what would you share? What doyou share for them to them?
Unknown (31:19):
I mean, I think the most important point in
journalism, particularly, but itgoes, there's so many
transferable skills to the lawand just life in general. The
ability to connect the dots, soto see not just, you know, this
conversation that I'm havingwith this person, but how does
that connect with the otherthree that I just had this week?
And what is the broader themeand really finding? What are
(31:39):
these issues that are reallyvexing the industry society that
are really keeping our readersin my case, thinking and needing
answers, and that's how we cankind of bring to light, the
deeper stories, the more themore important issues, the
things that really help themsolve the in this business
problems that they have, orelsewhere. So I think, and that
just that transfers to life toreally just thinking beyond just
(32:02):
that one conversation you'rehaving or that one point and,
and how it can connect to whatelse is going on in the world
around you, whatever thatecosystem is that we're talking
about at the time, I thinkthat's so important.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (32:16):
Well, this conversation has been beyond
great. So and I'm so happy thatyou you both came on. And for
those of our listeners, theyknow that throughout our
conversation, I write downlittle words and snippets of
what we've talked about and Ikind of use them as almost
hashtags. And then I'm going toturn it to you ladies and ask us
(32:36):
ask you each what your personalhashtag is or what what is maybe
your your hashtag of the day,maybe just because we've had
this beautiful inspiringconversation. So I'm gonna read
some of these words and maybethey'll, they'll hit a nerve. So
solve achievable issues,stories, family culture,
(32:56):
diversity, value, leaning in EQ,IQ relationships, powerful
qualities, support, change, openminded path, credit, Grace,
doubt, trusting yourself,connect, get involved, and path.
(33:18):
So who would like to share firsttheir word or their theme or
their hashtag of today?
Unknown (33:26):
Gosh, there are so many good ones there, right? Oh, I'm
gonna Can I pick two brokersthat
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (33:31):
you can pick your own, or you can pick
two that you love. You cancreate your own. This is this is
DIY baby. We're not antiquinglike Gina but we'll DIY some
Instagram hashtags today. Soeverybody can find you. But I do
like I did not know about theantiquing. I want to see what
she what she finds up inLancaster.
Unknown (33:53):
Yes. That's right. So I'm gonna say hashtag open
mindedness because I think thatthat's huge. And I think that we
all just need to be that way inlife professionally. And I think
we're all guilty of maybe notjust kind of saying, you know,
we are on this path we need tostay on this path, whether it's,
you know, our routine with ourkids or our career, whatever it
(34:15):
is, and I think to be openminded and realize, you know,
what, let's let's have chickennuggets for dinner, or let's you
know, switch to academia fromlitigation or whatever the case
might be. I think that that thatthat can help us to not be so
rigid and to be open minded, andmaybe hashtag you've got this
you know, for the listeners whoare maybe you know, students
kind of exploring maybe thepossibility of a legal career
(34:38):
you know, you've got thiswhatever you decide to do, you
know, stay motivated and you cando it.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (34:44):
I love that.
Unknown (34:45):
I do too. Now I that's kind of the long lines I was
thinking I'm going to steal fromthe Sixers trust the process but
not maybe with that, that quitethat meaning and just like trust
yourself, right? You know, youyou got this exactly learn I
mean this go go into things,having confidence in yourself.
And if you don't feel like youhave the skills you need, either
(35:05):
acquire them or do a little fakeit till you make it because
frankly, that's what the rest ofus are doing. Yeah, it's okay.
Not everybody knows everythingall the time not even the people
who think they do. So you gotthis. Surround yourself with the
skills and the people that canhelp you take it even further.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (35:22):
Well, I've just enjoyed this immensely. I
want to say Happy Mother's Dayto both of you. Thank you so
much and happy Law Day. Yeah, Idon't know if you do something
special for Law Day but we'llhave to this year. I'm gonna
celebrate Law Day big, big, bigthis year for the two of you.
(35:43):
Please tell both of yourfamilies. We all for my family,
your family, our rcbc family toyour family. Thank you so much
for joining us. Gino learn. It'sbeen great having you here on
the Baroness podcast. And forall of our listeners. Thank you
for joining us this May on thebareness podcast. Take care.
Thanks.
Jason Varga (36:01):
You've been listening to the rcbc bareness
podcast, which highlights womenin leadership while encouraging
listeners to build their skills,connect with the community and
visualize the opportunitiesavailable to women in various
professions. For moreinformation about this podcast
or other podcasts available onthe rcbc Podcast Network, visit
rcbc.edu/podcast And be sure tosubscribe to the rcbc bareness
(36:21):
podcast available on allstreaming platforms.
Welcome to Rowan College a Burlington
counties Baroness Podcast. I'mDr. Brooke Mailhiot program
chair and assistant professor ofour entertainment technologies
department. I'm a co chair ofthe Women's Advocacy Group a
subcommittee of the President'sAdvisory Council on diversity,
equity and inclusion. Thismonthly series highlights women
in leadership, while encouraginglisteners to build their skills,
(00:22):
connect with the community andvisualize the opportunities
available to women in variousprofessions. Tune in for a
female perspective on theBurlington County community. We
are here to listen to theseamazing women. If you want to
hear from women who lead andinspire this podcast is for you.
(00:43):
Welcome to our May podcast thismonth, we are honoring women.
And this is basically what thebareness podcast is all about.
My guests today are GinaPassarella. And Lauren Brill,
and these two ladies, I feltwere perfect for me. Because we
have two powerful days thismonth that both of these women
(01:04):
celebrate the biggest event, ofcourse in May, ladies is
Mother's Day. Yes. Okay. Andthen I know both of these women
myself, because I'm a mother andI met them through my kids. But
the second one I'm not sure myguests know about might be a
surprise, but maybe they docelebrate that both of them have
this connection is that may 1 isLaw Day, did you either one of
(01:31):
you know that was all day.
Unknown (01:32):
So I know about Law Day. I know it exists. I didn't
know the exact date. So I'm justso happy that we can be here and
an honor that very special day.
Yes, yeah, I can't profess toknow that that was the day. But
I feel like every day is all dayin our world. So
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (01:46):
that's a great well, Law Day is an annual
observance noted in the legalcommunity for more than 60
years. These resources,celebrate the law and bring to
life, the role of students, thecourts and the Constitution. In
times of change. That is thedefinition of Law Day. And I
feel that it was great that Ibrought both of you on because I
(02:09):
feel both of you strongly havethis built into what you do day
in day out. And I'm gonna go toLauren first to introduce
yourself because I felt that thefirst part of that was bring to
life, the role of students andhow I met Lauren was she's a
mommy friend, our kids went topreschool together. I think when
(02:30):
they started in the three yearold class, I think that's right.
We met each other. And and Iknow how and Jean, I'm sure
we'll get into this this mommyconnection. I met her at
preschool. And eventually wetalked about what I was doing
what she was doing. And I hadher come on over to rcbc. And
(02:51):
she got an adjunct position andstarted being part of a role to
our students here at rcbc. So,Lauren, quickly introduce
yourself to our listeners.Absolutely.
Unknown (03:00):
Well, thank you so much for having me here. I'm so
honored to be part of thisprogram. And thanks to you for
helping me connect with rcbc.And I'm sure that some of what
we'll talk about today just youknow, using those connections to
find great opportunities. So areally short background for me.
I have many years of experiencepracticing law, specifically
commercial litigation at a largelaw firm in Philadelphia. But
(03:24):
then I made the switch Itransitioned to higher
education. I have been for thepast 10 years or so. Teaching
higher education legal typeclasses. I'm also working in law
school admissions. I really loveit. You know, it was it was it
was a big change for me, but Iknow I made the right decision.
I also am heavily involved inchild advocacy work. I'm doing
(03:46):
another thing that I love aswell. And I'm just happy to be
here today with everyone.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (03:51):
Well, thank you for joining us. I'm really
excited about our talk togetherand Gina our mommy connection
and Morristown I moved toMorristown and know a lot of
people. We met through a lot ofdifferent things at the school
and the kids and everything. ButI met Gina more personable at a
party. And she starts talking tome about all these like, amazing
(04:13):
thing she's doing. She's winningEmmys. She's writing this, she's
writing that and I'm like, I'mlike, what? And she's just
standing there, we're justtalking to like, I had no idea.
I didn't even know there's thiswhole world of legal like
journalism. And it's sobeautiful to share that because
I'm obviously have thejournalism background and then
(04:33):
to connect with you. So tell usa little bit about your
background and yourself, Gina.
Unknown (04:38):
I'll well first again, thank you so much for having us
on with the work that you dohere and the supportive women.
This is just awesome. And I'm soglad that we can be a part of
it. And yeah, so I am an editorin chief of global legal brands
at a company called ALM which islegal journalism company focused
on covering all differentaspects of the legal industry.
My particular area of focus thatI've done since I start arted
(05:01):
almost a couple decades agodoing this out of out of grad
school was the business of law.So how the legal industry
operates as a business and allof its financials and management
decisions and strategic goalsand things that I didn't even
know existed when I started andstill learn every day about. And
so it's been really fascinatingover the last couple of years to
(05:21):
follow the changes in theindustry and a lot of what
Lauren is working on and inprivate practice, and then the
legal education space, and seehow the industry is evolving and
using innovation, and then alsohow our own company in a media
company is evolving andinnovating. And there's been a
lot going on in the last coupleof decades. So lots to talk
(05:42):
about I'm sure that we could getinto in a little bit.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (05:44):
And what I think is really amazing, both of
you have such a huge resume ofstuff that you've done within
the within your field of careerand then outside. But how do you
manage? How do we how do wemanage with, I know you all have
families, and one of the biggestthings that like women, we you
(06:06):
know, we have our like we havethese amazing careers, right,
and we've been so privileged tohave this fabulous, you know,
career path. How do you jugglewith being a woman and being a
mom like, Lauren, what do youwhat do you take from that?
Unknown (06:22):
I don't know, I wish I could answer that question. It's
just, you guys are gonna tellme.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (06:27):
I have no idea. Everybody always asked me
and I'm like, I don't know, Ijust, you just got to do it.
It's like, it's like you just goright? You
Unknown (06:34):
just go. I think every day presents its new challenges.
I think one thing if you reallyenjoy what you're doing
professionally, I think thatgives you a really positive
mindset for the rest of your,your day, right? So when you're
when you're managing your kids,when you're managing all the
responsibilities that you haveat home, if you're doing
something professionally thatyou love, I think it just kind
(06:54):
of keeps you more positiveoverall. And you can kind of
just keep that attitude as muchas possible. I mean, do we lose
it sometime? Absolutely, ofcourse, we're human. But I think
that helps, too. And I think,you know, just making the time
for yourself as crazy as thatsounds, with all the other
responsibilities we haveprofessionally, and our family
just cutting out even if it's alittle bit of time you carve out
(07:16):
in the morning, get up beforeeveryone just have that time for
yourself to kind of set the pacefor the rest of the day. I think
that helps. But, you know, it's,it's something we all deal with.
And it's and it's not alwayseasy, but I think that you know,
just just focus on the on theself care, focus on trying to,
you know, keep things aspositive as possible in your in
your career. And that can kindof help your outlook on the rest
(07:36):
of your, your day in your yourworld.
That's such great advice. And Icouldn't agree with you more,
Lauren about when you love whatyou do. And I'm so fortunate
every day, I don't feel like I'mgetting up and going to work
every day. I'm excited for whatI'm going to learn what new is
going to happen. And I know thatthat's not always everybody's
situation. So I feel veryfortunate. But I tell people all
the time, particularly youngwomen in the workplace who are
(07:58):
coming to me, and maybe they'reabout to have kids and they say
how am I going to do this andit's like, it's not always going
to be pretty not everybody needsto know that you changed your
shirts three times, because thebaby spit up on it before you
left work, you're gonna getthere and it'll be fine. And
everything works out. And it'snot always going to be 100% here
and there. But I mean, a couplethings that I think help are
one, you know, leveraging thenetwork, the it takes a village
(08:20):
thing could not be more true. Togive my husband a ton of credit,
my mom who's at home right nowwatching my dental credit. I
mean, there's in the mommynetwork, right, the village of
friends that you that help getfolks to practice or where you
need to be. But from anemployment perspective, I mean,
I tell people all the time, Ithink working mothers are the
best employees you can have,because I don't want to curse on
(08:41):
the podcast, but I will theydon't have time for the
bullshit, right? Like, it's justeverything is cut out, you just
have to get things done. And youfind a way you just all of a
sudden become a lot moreefficient. And it's not always
easy, but it can it can be done.
I agree completely 100% and Ithink that network of friends so
that you do have that outletbecause you need it right you
need people who can relate towhat you're you're dealing with,
(09:03):
right you need to be able tovent you need to be able to help
other women in the situation,but also those professional
networks too. I think that's sohelpful to having a group of
women who, who share yourprofessional aspirations and
interests and things like that.And you can help each other
learn professionally, you canprovide mentorship to other
women who are you know, wantingto enter your profession or
(09:24):
they're in it and they want tomove in with it move up within
it. So I think having networksin all different aspects social
professional, I think is is sucha huge support system in
addition to you know, havinghaving a great family support
network if you do
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (09:38):
have that. And I can't obviously I support
both of you. I can't say morethat you both really shared
that. That village that supportsystem we had a few people in
previous podcasts they call ittheir divas you know that they
that they that they connect withand that they have and I love
that you both said you shared alittle bit about what you would
(09:59):
tell You know, people are whatyou shared? What would you
share? Now knowing where you arein, in your career, your young
self? What would you say toyourself now like, like, because
all of us are in probablycompletely different spaces than
what we thought when we were inour 20s? Or when you were, you
(10:20):
know, finishing law school,let's say, what would you go
back and tell yourself? If youcould just tell yourself
anything? Maybe it was somethinglike a motto or, or a tip or a
trick? What What would you goand tell your young, young
Lauren? Not that you're notyoung and beautiful? But your
your, your younger? Self? Yes,
Unknown (10:41):
yes, times have changed, I, I would definitely
tell my young self to be moreopen minded, because I think
when I made the decision to goto law school, and it was kind
of a crazy backstory, I wasactually focused on journalism
in college, but then thought,You know what, I want to focus
on a particular area ofjournalism. So maybe the law
would be the way to go, legalanalyst type of thing. So I kind
(11:04):
of thought, Okay, I'm going tofollow that path. Then, luckily,
I was open minded because Idecided, no, I want to practice
law. I did some internships andother things that really kind of
sold it, I started at the firm,I loved it, I thought, This is
what I want for the rest of mylife for my career, I still kept
that open minded kind of mottoin my head. And I think I'm glad
(11:26):
I did. Because I think if Ididn't, I would have thought,
This is my career for the restof my life. I need to prove it
to myself that I could becomepartner that I can work my way
up to the top of this firm. ButI had to kind of take a couple
of steps back and say, you know,what, what do I really want at
this point in my life? Do I wantto make a change? And I think
that being open minded reallyhelped me enter academia. And I
(11:47):
think had I not done that. Idon't know if I would have felt
as fulfilled in my career. SoI'm glad that I that I did that.
And I tell my students the samething, the ones who want to go
to law school, and they, youknow, they think they're
interested in it, but they'rejust not sure. And I said, it's
okay, you go to law school, youwill learn so many transferable
skills, there's so manyqualities that you'll gain in
(12:07):
law school that can enter intoanother field and really benefit
you in that way. So I think justjust knowing that you know, what
you might think you want toenter a certain career, and you
enter it and you decide you wantto change and that's, that's
totally fine. It's your life youneed to do what makes you happy.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (12:23):
What would you tell your younger self,
Unknown (12:25):
I love what you said, first of all arm because I think
the job I have now didn't evenexist when I started even within
your company, being open mindedabout what your path is, or in
other roles. So I think that'sso great. But I have two things
I would say. And they're they'resomewhat related. And one is
just, you know, give yourselfsome credit and grace, I
remember, when I got promoted tomy first editor and chief role
(12:48):
within the company, I waswalking to work that day, it was
such a different role from, fromwhat I had had, and I was
literally sick to my stomach,like, Oh, my goodness, my day to
day is going to change, I'm notgoing to do it. And maybe I'm
not going to be good enough atthis, maybe, maybe I'm not the
right person, shoot, should Ihave said yes to this. And I was
just sick. I didn't meet forthree days prior. And I get
there and I have my first week.And I'm like, this is this is
(13:08):
what I was meant to do. And youknow, I'm never gonna doubt
myself. I'm always maybe I'mnervous. Nerves are good. Nerves
are okay, right? Because thatmeans you care, you're
passionate, you want to goforward and do a good job. But
giving, you're trusting yourselfthat you can do it and trying
and try and being okay with thatchange and trying to go for
things. And the other thing Iwould just say, and it's
somewhat related to how you geton that path is raise your hand
(13:31):
for things, connect with peopleconnect with projects, connect
with other folks that might notbe in your direct lane, get
involved in as much as you can,that exposes you to new
opportunities, new people, newskills, I think that's just
where your name then pops intosomebody's head when the next
opportunity arises.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (13:49):
I absolutely love that the new
skills that networking gettingyour feet wet. You know, I think
giving our young women thoseopportunities, no matter what
profession, I think that's likea really big, a big deal. And I
think in you know, you had saidabout like you're in journalism,
(14:11):
you both are in legal. I was inTV production, it was very male
dominated industry. And I thinkit's obviously changed a little
bit since since we've been youknow, we were going to school,
and that was kind of our careerfield. Well, what would you say
(14:32):
now to young women, I guess, tokind of push them if they
weren't really considering thisprofession, or they were scared
to enter the profession. And itdoesn't really matter what field
of career but what would you sayto young women that might be
fearful about what they want todo with their life and they're
(14:55):
not sure
Unknown (14:58):
Yeah, well Oh, I'll give a stab at that answer. I
mean, like, in some respects,I'll admit that I never really
thought about, you know, whoelse am I going to be working
with? Or what is the environmentI didn't even know at a young
age, what to think about a workenvironment, I just kind of
knew, luckily enough, I wantedto do journalism. And I sought
that out. And I think, you know,it goes back to what I talked
(15:21):
about before, just being openminded, being involved, raising
your hand for things. And one ofthe things that I've learned
throughout my career is, there'snothing more powerful or no
skill set, I think that's morepowerful than life is about
relationships, it's about youremotional, your EQ is just as
important as your IQ in theworkplace. And so really just
(15:45):
getting to know people,interacting with folks and being
open to learning from them. Andjust raising your hand and
getting involved. I, I'll admitthat I don't always think about,
you know, is it mostly men inthe room? Is it mostly women, I
mean, that, and that is, thatcan be really an intimidating
thing. But when you're doingsomething you love when you're
(16:06):
willing to learn and askquestions. You know, it's not
about who else is in the room?It's about kind of what, what
are you taking in and learningfrom the situation? What are you
bringing back to the group andwith your experience? Because it
is I mean, there's no doubteverybody brings a different
perspective to the table. Andthey're also important. And so I
think just leaning into, what doyou bring to the conversation
(16:26):
and being open to learning fromothers, I think is really
important. But
yeah, I love that you said thatGina, like, especially about
those relationships and learningfrom others. I think that's,
that's hugely important,especially as a, as a young
female lawyer, young femaleentering the legal profession,
you know, and it's not so much amale dominated profession as
much as it was, you know, 10plus years ago, most of the
(16:48):
people entering law school orwomen these days, the majority
are, so it's definitelychanging. I think, you know, if
I were to talk to someone whowas in law school looking for
their first legal career, I'dprobably you know, let's say
they're looking into a firm, youknow, what are the women's
initiatives that this firm has,because many of them really do
promote their women'sinitiative, these initiatives
these days, because they want toget those, you know, high
(17:10):
performing women lawyers to tostart at their firms. So, you
know, really find out what arethose initiatives? What are they
doing? Are women in leadershippositions within the firm? Are
they on the executive committee?Are they on other committees
within the firm? Do they, youknow, do they help run the
organization? What do they do atthe firm? You know, what kind of
mentoring opportunities arethere in these in these firms or
(17:33):
other, you know, legalemployers, and you know, not
just their PR piece of it, like,what do they promote? But what
do they actually do? So talk topeople at the interview, talk to
people who know, people who workat that firm, or that legal
employer, what do they do? Dothey really value women? is
diversity, important to them?Are they committed to the
(17:53):
retention of women, to theadvancement of women attorneys,
I think that's really importantto have that information before
you make the decision where youwant to start your career. If I
can just follow up on that,because you raised such a good
point. And I, I cover the legalindustry, and law firms will
often talk to me about theirculture. And in the beginning, I
used to think it's just abuzzword, because they all say
when they describe what it is,they all say the exact same
(18:13):
thing, right? And so, but thereis there are cultures within
every organization has aculture, and they can be
dramatically different and doingyour homework, you know, as much
as I said, I didn't really knowto even do that, or think to do
it, I just kind of learned as Iwent, I mean, if you can do that
homework, on the front end, Ithink you're going to really
find you know, what type ofsupport is internal. And then
you also have to look at, youknow, just career wise, if this
(18:36):
is what I really want to do,okay, what organization will
support me and the lifestylethat I want? And what will what
do I need external to myorganization, the the family
life that I create, and thatthere's there's all sorts of
things that going into go intomaking you a success in your
career. And it's not just all inthat one organization.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (18:52):
Great points. And I love that both of
you talk about like, the supportsystem, your successes, your
your internal motivation to keepgoing to get yourself out there,
who for each one of you was thatperson? So each one of you were
saying, you know, go to the yournetwork get connected, the all
these people who's been yourpowerful network? Is it a group
(19:15):
of people? Is it one person thatsaid something to you one time
and that you took that and youran with it? What was that for
you? Was it a moment in time wasan event in time? I might be
stomping you.
Unknown (19:32):
I feel like there were so many positive influences, you
know, women that I'veencountered throughout my
career, I guess, to come to mindimmediately, and I'm sure there
are many, many more, but one wasa mentor that I had at the firm
when I started, you know, thisnew 27 year old new lawyer first
day I'm in this big firm, I feelkind of like, you know, how am I
(19:53):
going to like prove myself here,I need to do a great job. And so
I started talking to this lawyerwho had been there a few years
this also to a young lawyer, buta couple of years, you know,
senior to me, and she wasexperiencing kind of certain.
She was sort of a few yearsahead of me, not only
professionally, but just as faras you know, she was preparing
to get married. And theneventually she had her first
(20:13):
child. And so I was sort offollowing this path that she was
leading for me. And so all theseobstacles and things that she
encountered, I eventuallyencountered, and I could go to
her to kind of, you know, kindof seek help and kind of
guidance on how that that went.So I think that was super
helpful to me, and she just, youknow, encouraged me and she had
a mentor as well, who was afifth year senior to her. So I
think we all just kind of, youknow, helped each other. And
(20:35):
then I mentored someone, theother person who comes to mind
is, when I got my first teachingjob, this was a woman I met at
this open house at a collegethat I went to, you know,
randomly as I was practicing totry to get this adjunct
position, and met her for thefirst time, she called me and
offered me this job that theyneeded filled immediately, I was
still practicing, I was makingthis decision. And then we
(20:56):
became really good friends. Andshe had was a lawyer previously,
as well and entered highereducation. And she's done such
incredible things in highereducation at various
institutions. And, you know, Ijust looked to her, you know,
whenever I have any questions,I'll I'll call her she's been
through so much. And, you know,and she's also a motivator for
(21:16):
me to provide that guidance toother people who, who may need
it professionally.
Those are great examples. Andyeah, you, you stumped me in a
way that like, it's so hard topinpoint just a couple people
because it different phases inyour life, people come in, and
you don't might not even realizeat the time that wow, what an
impact they had. But I think ata professional level, I mean,
(21:37):
both men and women, my bosseshave really been tremendous
support networks. And one of youknow, sometimes it's through
their purposeful goal to advancewomen and to really help and
that's huge. Sometimes it'sjust, you know, and you touched
on this learn kind of somebodywho's going to walk you through
the internal politics of yourorganization, right and know the
(21:57):
things that you might not beable to ask your boss or it
could be your boss who's justreal with you, that's a really
special relationship you candevelop. And it's just somebody
who can help you understandlike, this is what's going on,
even beyond your jobdescription. This is how it all
fits together, this is what youshould avoid or what you should
strive for. And then just thosepeople, your your friends who
(22:17):
knew you when you know, from mycollege girlfriends are still we
get on and we talk about lifeand work and the things that you
can really two all together mymy mom friend network, which is
just like invaluable, and justpeople come in your life in
different times. And, you know,and then I always think about,
like, my mom, right? And what anexample, she was just she didn't
(22:37):
have anything like the careerpath I've had, but she was just
such a, she just always gotthings done, and was always this
calming presence. And, um,nothing. Certainly as my kids at
home, I'm not calm. But but youknow, just trying to think about
how can I, how can i She alwayshad always seemed like she had
the answers and we could solvethings together and we could get
(23:00):
through and anything wasattainable, and achievable. And
so having that mindset of, youknow, what do I want? And how do
I get there and, and beingfortunate enough to have people
around you that can help supportthat because that's essential.
You can't always do it on yourown,
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (23:15):
the support and how we get there and we
can't forget our social, socialand emotional support. And I
know Lauren, you had said thisand also Gina you had talked
about like, we need our time,like away from a lot of all this
right? So you know, we have ourwork life, we have our mom life,
(23:36):
but then we need time for us torejuvenate and, and figure out
what our life is going to beevery day day in day out and
carve that little section forus. How do each of you kind of
de stress, step away is thereand I know it's hard because we
could say it all day. I knowthere's days where I don't have
(23:58):
a minute to myself. I like gethome I'm like okay, dinner's
ready. Gonna be ready in 25minutes go get your baseball
outfit on. You get your lacrosseout. But did you pack your snack
for tomorrow? Like it's notsnap, but I know both of you're
laughing but you're like I'vebeen there. I know. Yeah. So
what do you do? Is there isthere is there an activity that
(24:19):
you enjoy? Is there a place yougo? Is it you know, something?
You love a hobby? What's yourWhat is that for you?
Unknown (24:30):
I would say I mean overall, like prioritizing
health is so important. And Ithink that like you know not
only physical health like if Ican get my workout soon I feel
good like I feel good I feellike I can I can take on this
day right whatever. Whatevercomes my way I can handle it
which may or may not be true,but at least it gives me that
feeling right? I think just likeyour your emotional like mental
(24:54):
health, like having those socialinteractions like making plans
with friends and keeping themregardless of what's going on.
You know, whatever is going onin your day like keeping those
those plans go out to dinnerwith friends, just just chat
have coffee with a friend. Andthat that time I think really
gives you, it energizes you. Youknow, I think just any
activities that you have, youknow, just, you know, reading
(25:16):
even reading for a half hourbefore bed, right? Like
sometimes I say to myself, gosh,I haven't read a whole book. And
you know, it's been like sixmonths and I love reading. So
just really making that time Ithink for yourself can be
helpful, you know, taking awalk, taking a break in the
middle of the day taking a walklistening to the Baroness
podcast.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (25:35):
Shameless plug. Shameless plug. Yes. Oh,
you're walking
Unknown (25:38):
around the block, right? Something like that. Just
making that time for yourself todo something that that you
really enjoy. And that relaxesyou and makes you feel good. So
I feel like I shouldn't say myguilty pleasure answer, which is
like sitting down on my bed andwatching murder mysteries. But
okay, I won't I just admittedthat we all love. My husband is
a little concerned. But that'sokay. So I mean, I totally agree
(25:59):
that take I often will wake upearly before the kids get up.
And if I if I have the energyand just check, have that calm
time do my spelling bee on NewYork Times that kind of thing.
But I love the getting out andmeeting friends doing an
activity something new, youknow, a date night that Is it
focused on just a newexperience. My husband and I
love antiquing. I think that'slike our thing we like anytime I
(26:21):
highly recommend go to Lancasterget a bed and breakfast go
antiquing. That's, you know, Ijust aged myself completely. But
those are our kind of guiltypleasures that we like that I
will admit. I mean, that's thisis probably an area where I fall
down more than any other whichis making that I'm not
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (26:39):
really it's really hard. I know it's really
hard. And I and I ask it in alot of my guests because like we
always put ourselves last right?Because I feel like women were
always givers. And it's like, wewere talking about that network.
And those connections. We'realways giving, always
connecting, and we're and andit's a lot like it's a lot and
(27:02):
then you don't realize you'relike well, it's the end of the
day and what you know, you didso much. But then you're like
whoosh, when can I just escapeand I think a lot of us feel bad
about that, like a lot of usfeel bad. Like we're even
thinking about that for us,right? You feel this guilt? Like
Unknown (27:17):
why am I making time for myself? When I have a pile
of laundry over here? I haven'teven thought about dinner. We
have no produce in the house.Like, I need to do something.
But you know,
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (27:27):
we have no live produce
Unknown (27:30):
nothing. But I think giving ourselves some leeway.
Like there are just some nightswhere you're like, you know
what, I'm not gonna make a wellbalanced meal tonight. Like it's
just not gonna hash it. Chicken
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (27:40):
like chicken nuggets. If I can find
froze a frozen vegetable. It'sbeen in there for like two
years. I'll figure it out thebottom of the freezer, I'll
shake. It'll be something green.I don't know what it'll be.
Unknown (27:51):
Yeah, that's totally true. And you know, and like,
you just go with it all youcan't do. I don't think your
kids expect you to do it all. Soyou do what you can. They know
their love. They're taken careof chicken nuggets? It
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (28:03):
is yeah. I mean, you know, you said you
can't do it all my motto is takeit one day at a time. Do you
have a motto that like, orsomething that you say
continually for yourself? Ormaybe it's your family? Or just
what's going on that you're justlike, Alright, I just do it one
day at a time. My mother used tosay that all the time. She says
you just take it one day at atime.
Unknown (28:24):
I think that's great. I mean, it's kind of a variant of
everything works out as itshould. It's almost for me,
though, it's maybe not as itshould. But everything however
it works out, it will be okay.We'll find our way through it.
You know, it kind of worked outas it should. This is the new
path we're on and we're gonnanavigate this.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (28:41):
I love that.
Unknown (28:42):
I love that I think like a similar theme like
tomorrow's a new day, right? Soif we have some challenges
today, and sometimes they seemreally tough, and how are we
going to get through this? Likewe have a fresh start tomorrow?
And then it'll be okay.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (28:54):
Do you use that motto? Do you think that
that goes for personal life toyour career in academia? I mean,
you see a lot of young minds andyou're kind of taking those
young minds to the next step.And you're seeing them in that
very, extremely vulnerableposition of of is this decision
(29:14):
and you're making the decision,right? I mean, I don't know if
we told everybody kind of whatyour day in day out is. Your
your job role right now?
Unknown (29:23):
Yeah. So um, so my job role in academia now is it's
kind of twofold. So I'm teachingso I teach mainly paralegal
classes, but I teach businesslaw right now. And then I've
also taught legal research andwriting legal technology
eDiscovery, other kinds ofbusiness law types of classes,
Intro to Paralegal Studies. AndI also work in admissions for a
(29:47):
law school. So reviewingapplications by the 1000s of,
you know, of students who areinterested in entering the legal
field. And, you know, I think alot of students it's, it's, you
know, I look back to when I wasIn college is trying to figure
out, okay, what path do I wantto take? And they don't
necessarily know, you know, andthey don't need to know, you
know, their first year ofcollege. They're taking, let's
(30:08):
say, a business law class,because it's, you know, required
under some sort of Gen Edcategory, but they don't know if
this is for them. And, you know,kind of the same sort of mottos
that were saying, you know,being open minded, you know, the
value of relationships, youknow, you know, sort of
volunteering to take the nextstep to go to go beyond what's
asked of you are all thingsthat, that they're mindful of,
(30:31):
and that they're aware of, andthey're here to kind of gain
that information and figure outwhat they want to do. And, you
know, even if they decided it'sokay, if they change their mind,
and I think that that's, thatthat's really important. So,
yeah, I think being part of thatprocess is an exciting thing,
because I think I can kind of,you know, give them that peace
of mind that, you know, it'sokay to not know, and that's why
(30:53):
you're here. And we can help youfigure it
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (30:55):
out. I think that's such a positive
thing. And for your inspirationof your writing, and I, you
know, you you travel around, youdo lots of very unique things.
I'm sure you have some veryyoung legal minds, young
journalists coming to you foradvice. What do you say to them?
(31:16):
Or what would you share? What doyou share for them to them?
Unknown (31:19):
I mean, I think the most important point in
journalism, particularly, but itgoes, there's so many
transferable skills to the lawand just life in general. The
ability to connect the dots, soto see not just, you know, this
conversation that I'm havingwith this person, but how does
that connect with the otherthree that I just had this week?
And what is the broader themeand really finding? What are
(31:39):
these issues that are reallyvexing the industry society that
are really keeping our readersin my case, thinking and needing
answers, and that's how we cankind of bring to light, the
deeper stories, the more themore important issues, the
things that really help themsolve the in this business
problems that they have, orelsewhere. So I think, and that
just that transfers to life toreally just thinking beyond just
(32:02):
that one conversation you'rehaving or that one point and,
and how it can connect to whatelse is going on in the world
around you, whatever thatecosystem is that we're talking
about at the time, I thinkthat's so important.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (32:16):
Well, this conversation has been beyond
great. So and I'm so happy thatyou you both came on. And for
those of our listeners, theyknow that throughout our
conversation, I write downlittle words and snippets of
what we've talked about and Ikind of use them as almost
hashtags. And then I'm going toturn it to you ladies and ask us
(32:36):
ask you each what your personalhashtag is or what what is maybe
your your hashtag of the day,maybe just because we've had
this beautiful inspiringconversation. So I'm gonna read
some of these words and maybethey'll, they'll hit a nerve. So
solve achievable issues,stories, family culture,
(32:56):
diversity, value, leaning in EQ,IQ relationships, powerful
qualities, support, change, openminded path, credit, Grace,
doubt, trusting yourself,connect, get involved, and path.
(33:18):
So who would like to share firsttheir word or their theme or
their hashtag of today?
Unknown (33:26):
Gosh, there are so many good ones there, right? Oh, I'm
gonna Can I pick two brokersthat
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (33:31):
you can pick your own, or you can pick
two that you love. You cancreate your own. This is this is
DIY baby. We're not antiquinglike Gina but we'll DIY some
Instagram hashtags today. Soeverybody can find you. But I do
like I did not know about theantiquing. I want to see what
she what she finds up inLancaster.
Unknown (33:53):
Yes. That's right. So I'm gonna say hashtag open
mindedness because I think thatthat's huge. And I think that we
all just need to be that way inlife professionally. And I think
we're all guilty of maybe notjust kind of saying, you know,
we are on this path we need tostay on this path, whether it's,
you know, our routine with ourkids or our career, whatever it
(34:15):
is, and I think to be openminded and realize, you know,
what, let's let's have chickennuggets for dinner, or let's you
know, switch to academia fromlitigation or whatever the case
might be. I think that that thatthat can help us to not be so
rigid and to be open minded, andmaybe hashtag you've got this
you know, for the listeners whoare maybe you know, students
kind of exploring maybe thepossibility of a legal career
(34:38):
you know, you've got thiswhatever you decide to do, you
know, stay motivated and you cando it.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (34:44):
I love that.
Unknown (34:45):
I do too. Now I that's kind of the long lines I was
thinking I'm going to steal fromthe Sixers trust the process but
not maybe with that, that quitethat meaning and just like trust
yourself, right? You know, youyou got this exactly learn I
mean this go go into things,having confidence in yourself.
And if you don't feel like youhave the skills you need, either
(35:05):
acquire them or do a little fakeit till you make it because
frankly, that's what the rest ofus are doing. Yeah, it's okay.
Not everybody knows everythingall the time not even the people
who think they do. So you gotthis. Surround yourself with the
skills and the people that canhelp you take it even further.
Dr. Brooke Mailhiot (35:22):
Well, I've just enjoyed this immensely. I
want to say Happy Mother's Dayto both of you. Thank you so
much and happy Law Day. Yeah, Idon't know if you do something
special for Law Day but we'llhave to this year. I'm gonna
celebrate Law Day big, big, bigthis year for the two of you.
(35:43):
Please tell both of yourfamilies. We all for my family,
your family, our rcbc family toyour family. Thank you so much
for joining us. Gino learn. It'sbeen great having you here on
the Baroness podcast. And forall of our listeners. Thank you
for joining us this May on thebareness podcast. Take care.
Thanks.
Jason Varga (36:01):
You've been listening to the rcbc bareness
podcast, which highlights womenin leadership while encouraging
listeners to build their skills,connect with the community and
visualize the opportunitiesavailable to women in various
professions. For moreinformation about this podcast
or other podcasts available onthe rcbc Podcast Network, visit
rcbc.edu/podcast And be sure tosubscribe to the rcbc bareness
(36:21):
podcast available on allstreaming platforms.
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