March 14, 2024 • 30 mins
In this thought-provoking discussion, the focus lies on the importance of closure in relationships. Exploring the individual interpretations of closure and its prominent influence on the healing process after a relationship ends, this episode examines whether they truly need closure for recovery or find healing without a definite end to emotional journeys. Through stories of unfaithful partners and addiction struggles in loved ones, it uncovers the yearning for closure and debunks the myth of closure's dependence on the other party in a relationship.
In the heart of the conversation, the revelation takes center stage that closure is a manifestation of self-love and dignity. It embodies the journey of self-worth recognition, self-respect, and realizing when a relationship chapter needs closure, no matter the involvement or lack thereof of the other party. Engaged deeply in this discourse of closure, you will find yourself reassessing your understanding and approach to closure in your relationships.
Empowerment in Closure: Personal Stories of Healing and Moving On
In this emotionally potent episode, speakers share their personal experiences of disintegrating marriages, the tough pathway to closure, and the setbacks from their partners that made ending relationships a challenging and painful process. Topics of attempting to salvage failing marriages, handling infidelity, forgiving, and finally accepting precede an illumination of the emotional journeys these individuals have traversed.
The speakers articulate their periods of self-realization, emphasizing their significant role in bringing closure. They reflect on their exhaustive efforts to "fix" their relationships and express the relief in deciding to prioritize personal happiness and tranquility. By reclaiming control and making the difficult decision to move on from their past, they highlight the significance of learning self-love and setting boundaries in relationships.
A strong narrative emerges from these personal stories about living life on one’s terms, notwithstanding heartbreak and betrayal. This raw and honest sharing of their experiences aims to inspire and support others navigating similar situations. The episode concludes on a hopeful note, with a discussion about their future plans, affirming a commitment to leading a fulfilling and love-filled life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:29):
Okay, so tonight, ladies, we're asking ourselves, how important is closure?
So like from big relationships, little relationships, anything?
Like just the whole concept of having closure.
Yeah, and I would say in your romantic relationships or not.
(00:50):
Even in work relationships or like... How important is closure?
And I think closure is important for yourself.
I don't necessarily think it has to involve all of the people involved.
Yeah, I agree. In order to have it.
Okay, I'm going to be the... Go ahead.
(01:12):
Okay, I think that people like that word. It's like a psychobabble kind of word.
It's a popular word and people have...
Adopted it into their language. But I don't think that that is the most important,
(01:33):
part of your healing process.
That would be great in a perfect world if everybody apologized and actually meant it and you felt it.
That would be fabulous. And you could move on and everybody would get their
little Cinderella ending.
But Bonnie and I were talking about this earlier. If you were going to get the
(01:54):
Cinderella ending, you probably wouldn't need closure.
Be with the person if they were the type that apologized.
And I think we put too much emphasis on the other person apologizing to you
and telling you, Hey, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.
Or I'm sorry I broke up or married. I'm sorry I had a girlfriend.
(02:14):
But I think we put too much emphasis on that. I don't think you need that necessarily here.
Would it help? Would it be the package with the little beautiful bow wrapped up on it?
Yeah, but I don't think you actually need that. I think people have decided
in their brain that that has to be one step in your recovery.
And I think you can recover just fine and move past that point.
(02:40):
Without it. I have done a lot of like, especially since my divorce or I had
a job change a few years ago, too.
And I think that that's part of what sparked it is asking myself, do I need that?
Like, do I need that from from whoever from employer, ex-husband,
(03:02):
friend when something has, I mean, gone awry or just sort of fallen away?
Way, like not going how you thought it would.
I will often go, okay, should I reach out or should we talk about this?
And then I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, do I need that?
And when my answer is no, then I'm not going to explore that because if my answer
(03:22):
is no, then the other person needs to do that if their answer is yes.
That's how I feel about it. Okay. Well, what is y'all's definition of closure?
Like, what is your definition of closure? What is closure to you?
That denouement it's a
resolution so it's it's it's a it's an
ending it's an or is it an acceptance of an
(03:44):
ending and sometimes that can be one-sided i think it's but yeah okay i think
you have to i think in order to get i think people think that you have to have
quote unquote closure that somebody has to apologize to you or somebody has
to admit wrongdoing or somebody has to to ask for forgiveness,
or you can forgive people without them asking for forgiveness,
(04:07):
because basically forgiveness is for you. It has nothing to do with them.
And I think people think that you have to have, I think they think this is a
step you have to have in order to accept what happened or to get over what happened.
And I don't think that it is. I think it would be great if it I mean,
(04:28):
if it was accessible to you, if somebody did apologize to you, I think that's great.
Do I think that you have to have it to deal?
So in a story arc, and this is your
field of 72 stories, a resolution or a denouement is a new understanding.
And once I'm there, once I've had that, I don't really need anything else.
(04:54):
Yeah, and I think for me in my life to have just that acceptance, there's an ending.
This is where I'm headed and turn and face in the other direction.
I don't, if I'm trying to grab on to and, and, and get some apologies or,
(05:16):
you know, for someone to admit to me that they did me wrong,
then I'm not willing to close that door yet.
If I'm needing, if I'm needing those apologies, I'm wanting to keep that door open.
I'm looking to keep it open. So for me to move on is even, I think,
healthier for me in my life to not even have what people call a typical closure.
(05:39):
My closure is something that I create myself, not dependent on others.
And I think, too, sometimes it's not about, especially with friends,
and we've hit on this a bit, it's not necessarily about closure,
but a new way of working together, a new way of being friends.
Ends and sometimes that means deeper and sometimes that means
(06:01):
taking a step back you know well and sometimes it
means no closure at all because if you have
closure it means an end and sometimes it's just a
whole lot easier to just let things go and dissolve on their own and not have
any sort of formal out there closure just look up a couple of decades later
and go oh wow that that ended some time ago yeah you know so i think there's
(06:25):
all sorts of different with different relationships relationships.
But yeah, I don't think you have to have the other person involved in a closure
or an ending. Your closure is yours.
Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah. And it can't be dependent because as I tell my daughter
and told my students all the time, who can you control?
Yourself and your reaction. You can't control anyone else. The only person in
(06:48):
any situation you can control is you. So your closure is on you.
You cannot be dependent on anybody else or you leave yourself open and in a hurt place.
If you're depending on somebody else. Yeah, I think a lot of people get stuck
because they're waiting for the other people to admit wrongdoing or or I'll just use my thing.
(07:12):
For example, you know, I stayed in my marriage for 10 extra years.
Well, you were in counseling the whole time, the whole time.
You know what I focused on?
Well, not the whole time, but a lot of my, where I got stuck was.
I wanted him to tell me when the affair started and when it ended.
(07:32):
My brain wanted definite, concrete, little, what would you say?
Parentheses. Yeah. I wanted to know. Do you know there's birth and the death of this affair?
And if he had actually finished, but he would never give me that ever.
And it just, it was like that one thing that I just, I was doing all the work on the other side.
(07:54):
But that one thing it was that one thing
that i kept circling back to so and once i
let that go because i realized it doesn't
even matter no but but it's part of because i did the same thing i i went through
every detail every text to make sense of the win of both of the actual affairs
(08:15):
that i know about and i think that part of it is so we can make sense of our lives at that time like,
at least for me, I think that was a lot of it.
Mine was cataloging. I wanted to see it in black and white.
And I'm very visual about things.
I have pictures of ex-boyfriends on my phone that Bonnie gets on to me all the
time. But I said, you know, some- I do. There's some not letting go there. Yeah.
(08:38):
I don't think it's not letting go. I think what it is is I look at it and think.
Remember, this was not for you.
Yeah. Don't think about this. This was not for you. This is not an example of
what a good, loving, kind relationship was. Oh, yeah.
On to something new. I did not need that.
(09:00):
I don't know if it's because I'm Irish or stubborn or just because of my type
A personality or because I'm visual.
I need that reminder, just like I like to keep. See, and I am visual,
which is why I needed everything gone.
I needed no reminder. I needed it the opposite way.
But talking about keeping tallies. So as the wife of an alcoholic.
(09:24):
I knew where we were in his alcoholism by keeping up with the amount of consumption.
Mm-hmm. And then when he started hiding how much he was drinking,
it was, can I find a bottle?
You know, so if I go through all the hiding places, but I felt like if I,
I knew that he wasn't drinking, if the 12 hiding places were empty and things
(09:46):
were, you know what I mean?
Like I was, I was still trying to tally and keep up with where we were.
And it just, and even after we divorced, it was so hard to let go and to have
closure because I still felt felt responsible in some ways for managing his
alcoholism, for trying to see if he's sober.
Yeah. Well, and that's a pattern too. Yeah, it is.
(10:07):
And it was me caring for him, but in ways I finally had to give my care of him back to him.
And that was, that was the hardest lesson I had to learn in divorce was that
I could not, I could not keep him from being an alcoholic and I could not manage
his alcoholism and I couldn't love it out of him.
Didn't matter how how many times I went and begged him and had him go back and
(10:30):
he convinced him rehab again or this, that, it didn't matter.
Yeah. But yeah. Well, that was a hard thing for me.
You can't make somebody love you or want to be a beautiful family of four or
behave in a way that was respectful to your wife and children or behave in a
(10:53):
a way that, you know, as you would say in the South,
that your mama raised you, you,
can't make anybody do anything they don't want to do.
And, you know, addictive people do their addiction is their number one thing in life.
It doesn't matter how beautiful you are, how much money you have,
(11:17):
how smart you are, how accomplished you are, or how much you love them.
No, and your love will never make them give up their addiction.
The only person that can give up an addiction or a girlfriend or a lifestyle
or whatever they put in front of them as number one, the only person that can
(11:38):
make them do that is themselves.
You can't change anybody. You can't change their mind. I mean—.
You have no control over the situation. And that was the hardest thing for me to realize.
There's nothing I can do to save this marriage.
There's nothing I can do to have someone love me.
(12:00):
And the funny thing is, like, we all tried for the longest time.
Time and i i'm gonna
this is i got to
the end of mine and realized i didn't
love him enough to keep trying i
didn't love him enough it wasn't enough see and
(12:21):
then and in my marriage it got to the end where i
didn't even have a chance to feel that because i felt
like i was having to love him enough to save him but don't
just be addicted like there are some people that you
love enough enough i don't know you know okay
but say your hot take say it you're sure
it won't seeing that's the wrong mindset lauren
(12:42):
the problem is and what i wanted to ask you
when you were saying that you felt like you didn't love him enough but i think
in the middle of it you didn't love yourself enough to pick yourself until the
end and that's a problem if me didn't love you enough it is hard to love someone
who is behaving like they don't love you No, I'll disagree with that one too.
(13:02):
He didn't love himself enough to be the man that he was supposed to be in the marriage.
He didn't love himself enough to be the man of the house, the husband.
The father. Oh, that's definitely. Whatever.
If you don't love yourself enough and have enough respect for yourself and how
(13:23):
you're conducting yourself.
That's the bottom line. And I feel like I wanted to say that to you.
You finally decided to love yourself enough to get out.
I feel like I finally said, Beth, you're worth loving.
You are enough the way you are. And he is not respecting you.
And he is not doing this. And I had a friend, my friend Rebecca.
(13:44):
She kept telling me, Beth, this is not right. He does not love you.
If he loved you, you would do this. And I kept saying, he doesn't even love himself.
He's not proud of himself. But you can't love someone else before you love yourself.
You have to love who you love. You have to love yourself.
But you don't have to love for anybody else.
Yeah. I think I finally got to the place where I loved myself enough to get out of the marriage.
(14:07):
I stayed in my marriage for a long time because I knew my husband was sick.
It was alcoholism. He had an addiction. And I did not feel like it was right to leave him.
Right. But I did. I did, and I did not end up getting any sort of magical closure from him.
I got half-assed apologies that didn't really mean a whole lot,
(14:28):
but I didn't really get any closure. Well, we talked about that, too.
I felt like I got enough of an apology that he checked the box.
Yes. That he did it, but I didn't feel like I would do this. Yeah.
I didn't feel it that he loved me. I didn't feel that his apology was real.
And you know but I do
(14:49):
still have closure from that relationship I had closure before he
died from that relationship because I created the
closure because for me I knew I
had done everything in the world possible to save the marriage I had done everything
in the world to try and save him from alcoholism not that I could even do that
I had done everything to love him that I could and in the end I could it wasn't
(15:11):
enough for him but it was everything I needed it to be for me So,
I mean, I had the closure I needed, but it was closure I created. I...
The things that needed to happen to recover from the cheating originally just didn't happen.
And I don't know if it would have made a difference or not, but it just kind of went away.
(15:36):
You know, the relationship disintegrated. But then when I decided to finally
leave, it was the hard...
He made it so hard for me to leave, like, every obstacle. But it's not,
but it's not, but he didn't make it hard for you to leave because he was trying to love you.
No, no, no, no. He made it hard for you to leave because he tried to punish you.
(15:56):
He couldn't punish me for wanting to leave. Yeah. Despite the fact that like.
It was. It started with him. So I, did I get closure from that? No.
However, do I have personal closure from that? Yes.
Because I knew at the, like the second I decided it was done, it was done.
For me. Part of my self-cluster was coming to the realization that there was nothing I could do.
(16:24):
I had felt like I had done everything I could do to save the marriage.
But I came to the realization that it takes two people working at the same kind
of fever to save something like that.
And during that 10 years, I felt like a huge failure for a very long time.
(16:45):
I felt like a failure because I could not.
I was my own worst enemy. I thought I could fix it. And I felt like a failure
because I couldn't fix it. I was spinning my wheels.
And then when I finally realized that,
I can't fix this. I can't make someone stay, love me, want to be a parent, want to be a husband.
(17:06):
I can't do that. And then all of a sudden, it was like I had a weight lifted off my shoulder.
And that's really when I had my closure.
Well, do you think that the moment you decided divorce was what you wanted,
you were falling through with it? Do you feel like that was its own closure in some ways?
Yes, because I, well, the Cantrell women.
(17:28):
When we are done, we're done. And there is no chance of going back.
Because at that point, we've given you numerous chances.
And there's a moment, and when we're done, we're done. And frankly,
all my sisters and I have experienced that.
But I'll also say, going back to what you said, when somebody cheats,
(17:49):
they really have to go above and beyond to repair their relationship.
Because they cheated. Like, no matter what happened in their relationship, they cheated.
And that was a choice that the other party didn't make.
And just not cheating is not a choice. That's not repair.
Like, agreeing not to cheat is not. No. That doesn't count.
(18:12):
No, it's going above and beyond. And doing the little thing.
You have to work really hard to repair with the other person.
I think I talked about this maybe in another, you know, our therapist gave my
ex a list of things and they weren't hard.
He didn't have to like juggle and, you know, cut the yard at the same time.
(18:32):
It wasn't anything that was very complex, but it was a consistent way of reestablishing
trust, texting before you come home.
But your ex never really quit having an affair. No, I don't think he ever really
gave that. So he didn't want to do any of this.
Well, he also had a whole thing about authority, resistance to authority.
(18:53):
So even just texting me that he was on his way, those little bitty things that
say, I am telling you this because I want you to know where I am.
And because I respect you.
You know, every little text is all towards that.
He refused to do. Like he did a few, few.
(19:14):
Times but he wasn't consistent it still
made me wonder where he was and
kind of panic what's he doing you know
those kind of things because once you break trust with somebody
it's really yeah hard to establish you can
do it but you have to put in 10 times
the effort to do it and if you're not willing to
(19:36):
do the effort then you know what's the
point but I think back to what you're were saying bonnie i think
when i decided i mean i'm not a cantrell but
i have burns are pretty much like that too we will
give you a mile but and then
there's just a moment where you're like one mile past the point where we've
(19:57):
exhausted everything and that's that you and then what's funny is then it's
immediate then you're like we're like get out bye-bye yeah it's over and And
I'm not that way. I wish I were that way.
I am the, oh, you want another chance?
Uh-oh. Maybe. My chances have been exhausted. Yeah. Like, I was really fried.
(20:20):
And when I decided that, and it was a hard decision. But when I made up my mind, that was it.
So what did y'all need for, if you're going to talk about, we're talking about self-closure.
What was it that helped seal the closure and helped you walk away without needing
anything from the other person? For me, it was caring that much about myself.
Knowing that I made the right decision for me and my kids. I did not want to
(20:42):
be around someone who talked to me unkindly ever again.
I don't even know if that's a word. I did not want that.
And or took things out on me.
That's what it was. I was like, no, I do not give permission for anybody to
be there. It's going to be cruel to you. Yeah.
I remember when I was talking about recovery from, because I've been in therapy
(21:04):
for a very long time, since the first affair. Frankly, that's what led me to therapy.
And after the second one, my therapist and I talked about like, what is it that you need?
Like, let's make a list of things that you need. And the first one was be kind to me.
And when I finally decided that this wasn't going to happen,
(21:25):
I needed to get divorced.
And I went back to her. She was like, Lauren, being kind, like asking for somebody
to be kind to you or to speak nicely to you,
that's not a request that's that should never be on the list that should never be on the list
and she was like don't ever let that be on the list again you know like this
should be a this should be a deal breaker it's a deal breaker yeah so I had
(21:49):
plenty of closure because I was like this is not something I'll ever allow in
my life again and as soon as I knew that I knew that that That was true.
Yeah. So, and so far, everything is a lot happier.
You know, I don't deal with yelling or conflict on a daily basis ever. It's great.
(22:10):
Yeah. There's a lot to be said for the peace in the home. Yeah.
But that's all the closure I needed is like, this isn't allowed.
That's what it is. This is not allowed in my life. I'm not allowed in my life.
I'll go say part of my closure didn't come from my kids.
And we talked about this. When I started waffling about divorce,
each one of my kids separately came to me and said, you're getting divorced. Please get divorced.
(22:32):
We like it so much better this way. Everybody's happier. here.
Like, just, just keep, you know, stay the course.
You have to have that moment where I was like, wait, what am I doing?
And to have them all go, uh-uh, don't, don't, keep going, keep going forward.
This is what was, what is needed for our family.
Just help sort of go, oh, you know, that was a
(22:53):
different kind of closure for me to have that support of my
kids and what it is that we were doing but well okay
i think mine came about slowly but at
the very end the last time my ex swapped lawyers and said we need to try to
work this out blah blah blah i really thought i had done you know i like to
(23:19):
read and investigate things i've done a lot of reading about generational generational,
behavioral issues in men, in families.
And I started looking at all the people that I knew that had cheated on their wives.
Well, what do you know? Their dads had done it too. Blah, blah,
blah. Did their parents stay together?
And I thought, you know, I really don't want my kids, especially my son,
(23:45):
to think that this is an okay thing to do.
And I really don't want my daughter to think that this is a way that someone should treat her.
Because at that point, he was saying, and he had said it for a long time,
if you can't forgive me, then we should just get a divorce.
He said it so many times, it was like the little carrot hanging over my hand.
I thought, I'm not cheap enough to be bought off by this.
(24:10):
Do you know what I'm saying? It almost felt like a bribery, like,
I'll keep you around if you can forgive me. And by that time,
I had already forgiven him for the infidelity.
And I was thinking, what is this about?
And does he really think that that's an enticement to stay married?
(24:30):
Like i don't know i don't know how to explain it but y'all know what i'm
saying like i i kept hearing it over and over
again and i kept thinking i always felt the world i always
felt like for the longest time i don't know if i've said this and this is a
bit more about the affairs but for the longest time every time we were intimate
all i could think of was the names of the two women he cheated on me with like
(24:55):
all the time i would be like well i'm in bed with with these two people now.
And that's just how I feel. Like, I don't, like, I was in a committed marriage.
If I was in an open marriage, it would be very different, but I wasn't.
I was in a committed marriage and I wasn't doing any of those things.
And here I am in bed with now two other women and I know their names,
(25:17):
Sarah and Amy. They're there.
As a nurse, you know what scared
scared me yeah i was not in bed and i
met the other woman yeah i was in bed with
everybody else that she had yeah been with and
all her affair partners that i found out about and you know when i had to get
tested i was like oh my i made i made my ex go get tested i made him go get
(25:40):
tested scared me to death but i couldn't i don't like but you're not supposed
to have to get over that because it's not supposed to be a thing, you know?
Well, trust is just so hard to get back once it's gone.
It is. You can do it. Other people have done it, but it takes a committed effort.
(26:02):
Well, not only that, it takes a lot of true, dedicated love from the person who cheated.
Yeah. You know, it has to be, even when they feel like you're being completely irrational, rational.
They have to step up and still be the loving person because they know that it's
going to be, yeah, it's going to be like PTSD.
(26:22):
It's going to come back and hit you when you absolutely least expect it.
And they're going to have to be okay with dealing with it again for the next 15, 20 years.
But it's a lot. So apparently, we have all figured out how to have our own closure.
We have not needed the men that we have left behind to step in and provide that
(26:45):
for us. Would y'all agree?
Yeah. Nor have, at least on my end, no one has expressed the need for any sort
of additional closure. Nope.
Not one of them, though.
Ants. i assume he's
good oh bunny sometimes
(27:08):
you just gotta laugh to the old tragedy i'm so sorry
i mean i i think i think he knew that i loved him yeah yeah before he before
he passed he knew that i loved him he knew that the kids loved him and i don't
think i think that he and i always felt like our our relationship moved from
husband and wife to some sort of extended family.
(27:28):
We were not, we weren't just divorced, never going to speak to each other again.
Yeah. We were in a bit of a codependence. It's just what it was.
It's just what it was. So I don't feel like he would have had any,
needed anything. Because you weren't angry.
No. I don't remember there being a lot of anger. No, especially,
yeah, especially when we got to that point.
He had had a girlfriend and I had had a guy that I was dating.
(27:50):
We didn't, there was not any anger between us. So thank goodness.
I think he knew he was very loved. That's good. And I didn't need closure from him, thank goodness.
I felt like I had already had everything from our marriage that I needed. Anyway.
All right, ladies. Are you all doing anything fabulous this week to live the
(28:14):
life that you love? With or without closure?
I got show. I got show. You have a kid who has a show, don't you?
I have a kid who has a show this weekend. I got show next weekend.
So when shows close yes i'll have closure
and then i know it's a closure
then i don't got show for a minute so that will be
nice but i'm also really excited about his
(28:37):
show because the our local company dream weavers did it and the director is
a really talented visual artist and he made exquisite i've seen the pictures
so i i made myself he at i choreographed a piece in it And last weekend,
he was like, well, do you want to stay and watch?
And I said, no, no, no. I'm going to be surprised. Let me be surprised.
(28:59):
So I haven't seen anything except the piece that I choreographed.
So I'm excited to see that this weekend.
And then next weekend is my show at school. And it's kind of our big, like, spring show.
And then I get to just, like, take a moment and get prepared for the big,
big show this summer, which is Sweeney Todd. And it's one of my favorites.
I can't wait. I can't wait. That would be fabulous.
(29:22):
How about you? well my son is coming here
for a very short period of time for the
weekend and so i'm excited about that yay so i think we'll have a good time
well i don't really have anything planned so i'm actually kind of excited about
that so this should be a good nice relaxing weekend nice good yes good but y'all
(29:44):
have a good weekend all right well happy weekend cheers ladies.
Thank y'all for joining us for champagne sunday see you next week.
Music.
Music.
(00:29):
Okay, so tonight, ladies, we're asking ourselves, how important is closure?
So like from big relationships, little relationships, anything?
Like just the whole concept of having closure.
Yeah, and I would say in your romantic relationships or not.
(00:50):
Even in work relationships or like... How important is closure?
And I think closure is important for yourself.
I don't necessarily think it has to involve all of the people involved.
Yeah, I agree. In order to have it.
Okay, I'm going to be the... Go ahead.
(01:12):
Okay, I think that people like that word. It's like a psychobabble kind of word.
It's a popular word and people have...
Adopted it into their language. But I don't think that that is the most important,
(01:33):
part of your healing process.
That would be great in a perfect world if everybody apologized and actually meant it and you felt it.
That would be fabulous. And you could move on and everybody would get their
little Cinderella ending.
But Bonnie and I were talking about this earlier. If you were going to get the
(01:54):
Cinderella ending, you probably wouldn't need closure.
Be with the person if they were the type that apologized.
And I think we put too much emphasis on the other person apologizing to you
and telling you, Hey, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.
Or I'm sorry I broke up or married. I'm sorry I had a girlfriend.
(02:14):
But I think we put too much emphasis on that. I don't think you need that necessarily here.
Would it help? Would it be the package with the little beautiful bow wrapped up on it?
Yeah, but I don't think you actually need that. I think people have decided
in their brain that that has to be one step in your recovery.
And I think you can recover just fine and move past that point.
(02:40):
Without it. I have done a lot of like, especially since my divorce or I had
a job change a few years ago, too.
And I think that that's part of what sparked it is asking myself, do I need that?
Like, do I need that from from whoever from employer, ex-husband,
(03:02):
friend when something has, I mean, gone awry or just sort of fallen away?
Way, like not going how you thought it would.
I will often go, okay, should I reach out or should we talk about this?
And then I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, do I need that?
And when my answer is no, then I'm not going to explore that because if my answer
(03:22):
is no, then the other person needs to do that if their answer is yes.
That's how I feel about it. Okay. Well, what is y'all's definition of closure?
Like, what is your definition of closure? What is closure to you?
That denouement it's a
resolution so it's it's it's a it's an
ending it's an or is it an acceptance of an
(03:44):
ending and sometimes that can be one-sided i think it's but yeah okay i think
you have to i think in order to get i think people think that you have to have
quote unquote closure that somebody has to apologize to you or somebody has
to admit wrongdoing or somebody has to to ask for forgiveness,
or you can forgive people without them asking for forgiveness,
(04:07):
because basically forgiveness is for you. It has nothing to do with them.
And I think people think that you have to have, I think they think this is a
step you have to have in order to accept what happened or to get over what happened.
And I don't think that it is. I think it would be great if it I mean,
(04:28):
if it was accessible to you, if somebody did apologize to you, I think that's great.
Do I think that you have to have it to deal?
So in a story arc, and this is your
field of 72 stories, a resolution or a denouement is a new understanding.
And once I'm there, once I've had that, I don't really need anything else.
(04:54):
Yeah, and I think for me in my life to have just that acceptance, there's an ending.
This is where I'm headed and turn and face in the other direction.
I don't, if I'm trying to grab on to and, and, and get some apologies or,
(05:16):
you know, for someone to admit to me that they did me wrong,
then I'm not willing to close that door yet.
If I'm needing, if I'm needing those apologies, I'm wanting to keep that door open.
I'm looking to keep it open. So for me to move on is even, I think,
healthier for me in my life to not even have what people call a typical closure.
(05:39):
My closure is something that I create myself, not dependent on others.
And I think, too, sometimes it's not about, especially with friends,
and we've hit on this a bit, it's not necessarily about closure,
but a new way of working together, a new way of being friends.
Ends and sometimes that means deeper and sometimes that means
(06:01):
taking a step back you know well and sometimes it
means no closure at all because if you have
closure it means an end and sometimes it's just a
whole lot easier to just let things go and dissolve on their own and not have
any sort of formal out there closure just look up a couple of decades later
and go oh wow that that ended some time ago yeah you know so i think there's
(06:25):
all sorts of different with different relationships relationships.
But yeah, I don't think you have to have the other person involved in a closure
or an ending. Your closure is yours.
Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah. And it can't be dependent because as I tell my daughter
and told my students all the time, who can you control?
Yourself and your reaction. You can't control anyone else. The only person in
(06:48):
any situation you can control is you. So your closure is on you.
You cannot be dependent on anybody else or you leave yourself open and in a hurt place.
If you're depending on somebody else. Yeah, I think a lot of people get stuck
because they're waiting for the other people to admit wrongdoing or or I'll just use my thing.
(07:12):
For example, you know, I stayed in my marriage for 10 extra years.
Well, you were in counseling the whole time, the whole time.
You know what I focused on?
Well, not the whole time, but a lot of my, where I got stuck was.
I wanted him to tell me when the affair started and when it ended.
(07:32):
My brain wanted definite, concrete, little, what would you say?
Parentheses. Yeah. I wanted to know. Do you know there's birth and the death of this affair?
And if he had actually finished, but he would never give me that ever.
And it just, it was like that one thing that I just, I was doing all the work on the other side.
(07:54):
But that one thing it was that one thing
that i kept circling back to so and once i
let that go because i realized it doesn't
even matter no but but it's part of because i did the same thing i i went through
every detail every text to make sense of the win of both of the actual affairs
(08:15):
that i know about and i think that part of it is so we can make sense of our lives at that time like,
at least for me, I think that was a lot of it.
Mine was cataloging. I wanted to see it in black and white.
And I'm very visual about things.
I have pictures of ex-boyfriends on my phone that Bonnie gets on to me all the
time. But I said, you know, some- I do. There's some not letting go there. Yeah.
(08:38):
I don't think it's not letting go. I think what it is is I look at it and think.
Remember, this was not for you.
Yeah. Don't think about this. This was not for you. This is not an example of
what a good, loving, kind relationship was. Oh, yeah.
On to something new. I did not need that.
(09:00):
I don't know if it's because I'm Irish or stubborn or just because of my type
A personality or because I'm visual.
I need that reminder, just like I like to keep. See, and I am visual,
which is why I needed everything gone.
I needed no reminder. I needed it the opposite way.
But talking about keeping tallies. So as the wife of an alcoholic.
(09:24):
I knew where we were in his alcoholism by keeping up with the amount of consumption.
Mm-hmm. And then when he started hiding how much he was drinking,
it was, can I find a bottle?
You know, so if I go through all the hiding places, but I felt like if I,
I knew that he wasn't drinking, if the 12 hiding places were empty and things
(09:46):
were, you know what I mean?
Like I was, I was still trying to tally and keep up with where we were.
And it just, and even after we divorced, it was so hard to let go and to have
closure because I still felt felt responsible in some ways for managing his
alcoholism, for trying to see if he's sober.
Yeah. Well, and that's a pattern too. Yeah, it is.
(10:07):
And it was me caring for him, but in ways I finally had to give my care of him back to him.
And that was, that was the hardest lesson I had to learn in divorce was that
I could not, I could not keep him from being an alcoholic and I could not manage
his alcoholism and I couldn't love it out of him.
Didn't matter how how many times I went and begged him and had him go back and
(10:30):
he convinced him rehab again or this, that, it didn't matter.
Yeah. But yeah. Well, that was a hard thing for me.
You can't make somebody love you or want to be a beautiful family of four or
behave in a way that was respectful to your wife and children or behave in a
(10:53):
a way that, you know, as you would say in the South,
that your mama raised you, you,
can't make anybody do anything they don't want to do.
And, you know, addictive people do their addiction is their number one thing in life.
It doesn't matter how beautiful you are, how much money you have,
(11:17):
how smart you are, how accomplished you are, or how much you love them.
No, and your love will never make them give up their addiction.
The only person that can give up an addiction or a girlfriend or a lifestyle
or whatever they put in front of them as number one, the only person that can
(11:38):
make them do that is themselves.
You can't change anybody. You can't change their mind. I mean—.
You have no control over the situation. And that was the hardest thing for me to realize.
There's nothing I can do to save this marriage.
There's nothing I can do to have someone love me.
(12:00):
And the funny thing is, like, we all tried for the longest time.
Time and i i'm gonna
this is i got to
the end of mine and realized i didn't
love him enough to keep trying i
didn't love him enough it wasn't enough see and
(12:21):
then and in my marriage it got to the end where i
didn't even have a chance to feel that because i felt
like i was having to love him enough to save him but don't
just be addicted like there are some people that you
love enough enough i don't know you know okay
but say your hot take say it you're sure
it won't seeing that's the wrong mindset lauren
(12:42):
the problem is and what i wanted to ask you
when you were saying that you felt like you didn't love him enough but i think
in the middle of it you didn't love yourself enough to pick yourself until the
end and that's a problem if me didn't love you enough it is hard to love someone
who is behaving like they don't love you No, I'll disagree with that one too.
(13:02):
He didn't love himself enough to be the man that he was supposed to be in the marriage.
He didn't love himself enough to be the man of the house, the husband.
The father. Oh, that's definitely. Whatever.
If you don't love yourself enough and have enough respect for yourself and how
(13:23):
you're conducting yourself.
That's the bottom line. And I feel like I wanted to say that to you.
You finally decided to love yourself enough to get out.
I feel like I finally said, Beth, you're worth loving.
You are enough the way you are. And he is not respecting you.
And he is not doing this. And I had a friend, my friend Rebecca.
(13:44):
She kept telling me, Beth, this is not right. He does not love you.
If he loved you, you would do this. And I kept saying, he doesn't even love himself.
He's not proud of himself. But you can't love someone else before you love yourself.
You have to love who you love. You have to love yourself.
But you don't have to love for anybody else.
Yeah. I think I finally got to the place where I loved myself enough to get out of the marriage.
(14:07):
I stayed in my marriage for a long time because I knew my husband was sick.
It was alcoholism. He had an addiction. And I did not feel like it was right to leave him.
Right. But I did. I did, and I did not end up getting any sort of magical closure from him.
I got half-assed apologies that didn't really mean a whole lot,
(14:28):
but I didn't really get any closure. Well, we talked about that, too.
I felt like I got enough of an apology that he checked the box.
Yes. That he did it, but I didn't feel like I would do this. Yeah.
I didn't feel it that he loved me. I didn't feel that his apology was real.
And you know but I do
(14:49):
still have closure from that relationship I had closure before he
died from that relationship because I created the
closure because for me I knew I
had done everything in the world possible to save the marriage I had done everything
in the world to try and save him from alcoholism not that I could even do that
I had done everything to love him that I could and in the end I could it wasn't
(15:11):
enough for him but it was everything I needed it to be for me So,
I mean, I had the closure I needed, but it was closure I created. I...
The things that needed to happen to recover from the cheating originally just didn't happen.
And I don't know if it would have made a difference or not, but it just kind of went away.
(15:36):
You know, the relationship disintegrated. But then when I decided to finally
leave, it was the hard...
He made it so hard for me to leave, like, every obstacle. But it's not,
but it's not, but he didn't make it hard for you to leave because he was trying to love you.
No, no, no, no. He made it hard for you to leave because he tried to punish you.
(15:56):
He couldn't punish me for wanting to leave. Yeah. Despite the fact that like.
It was. It started with him. So I, did I get closure from that? No.
However, do I have personal closure from that? Yes.
Because I knew at the, like the second I decided it was done, it was done.
For me. Part of my self-cluster was coming to the realization that there was nothing I could do.
(16:24):
I had felt like I had done everything I could do to save the marriage.
But I came to the realization that it takes two people working at the same kind
of fever to save something like that.
And during that 10 years, I felt like a huge failure for a very long time.
(16:45):
I felt like a failure because I could not.
I was my own worst enemy. I thought I could fix it. And I felt like a failure
because I couldn't fix it. I was spinning my wheels.
And then when I finally realized that,
I can't fix this. I can't make someone stay, love me, want to be a parent, want to be a husband.
(17:06):
I can't do that. And then all of a sudden, it was like I had a weight lifted off my shoulder.
And that's really when I had my closure.
Well, do you think that the moment you decided divorce was what you wanted,
you were falling through with it? Do you feel like that was its own closure in some ways?
Yes, because I, well, the Cantrell women.
(17:28):
When we are done, we're done. And there is no chance of going back.
Because at that point, we've given you numerous chances.
And there's a moment, and when we're done, we're done. And frankly,
all my sisters and I have experienced that.
But I'll also say, going back to what you said, when somebody cheats,
(17:49):
they really have to go above and beyond to repair their relationship.
Because they cheated. Like, no matter what happened in their relationship, they cheated.
And that was a choice that the other party didn't make.
And just not cheating is not a choice. That's not repair.
Like, agreeing not to cheat is not. No. That doesn't count.
(18:12):
No, it's going above and beyond. And doing the little thing.
You have to work really hard to repair with the other person.
I think I talked about this maybe in another, you know, our therapist gave my
ex a list of things and they weren't hard.
He didn't have to like juggle and, you know, cut the yard at the same time.
(18:32):
It wasn't anything that was very complex, but it was a consistent way of reestablishing
trust, texting before you come home.
But your ex never really quit having an affair. No, I don't think he ever really
gave that. So he didn't want to do any of this.
Well, he also had a whole thing about authority, resistance to authority.
(18:53):
So even just texting me that he was on his way, those little bitty things that
say, I am telling you this because I want you to know where I am.
And because I respect you.
You know, every little text is all towards that.
He refused to do. Like he did a few, few.
(19:14):
Times but he wasn't consistent it still
made me wonder where he was and
kind of panic what's he doing you know
those kind of things because once you break trust with somebody
it's really yeah hard to establish you can
do it but you have to put in 10 times
the effort to do it and if you're not willing to
(19:36):
do the effort then you know what's the
point but I think back to what you're were saying bonnie i think
when i decided i mean i'm not a cantrell but
i have burns are pretty much like that too we will
give you a mile but and then
there's just a moment where you're like one mile past the point where we've
(19:57):
exhausted everything and that's that you and then what's funny is then it's
immediate then you're like we're like get out bye-bye yeah it's over and And
I'm not that way. I wish I were that way.
I am the, oh, you want another chance?
Uh-oh. Maybe. My chances have been exhausted. Yeah. Like, I was really fried.
(20:20):
And when I decided that, and it was a hard decision. But when I made up my mind, that was it.
So what did y'all need for, if you're going to talk about, we're talking about self-closure.
What was it that helped seal the closure and helped you walk away without needing
anything from the other person? For me, it was caring that much about myself.
Knowing that I made the right decision for me and my kids. I did not want to
(20:42):
be around someone who talked to me unkindly ever again.
I don't even know if that's a word. I did not want that.
And or took things out on me.
That's what it was. I was like, no, I do not give permission for anybody to
be there. It's going to be cruel to you. Yeah.
I remember when I was talking about recovery from, because I've been in therapy
(21:04):
for a very long time, since the first affair. Frankly, that's what led me to therapy.
And after the second one, my therapist and I talked about like, what is it that you need?
Like, let's make a list of things that you need. And the first one was be kind to me.
And when I finally decided that this wasn't going to happen,
(21:25):
I needed to get divorced.
And I went back to her. She was like, Lauren, being kind, like asking for somebody
to be kind to you or to speak nicely to you,
that's not a request that's that should never be on the list that should never be on the list
and she was like don't ever let that be on the list again you know like this
should be a this should be a deal breaker it's a deal breaker yeah so I had
(21:49):
plenty of closure because I was like this is not something I'll ever allow in
my life again and as soon as I knew that I knew that that That was true.
Yeah. So, and so far, everything is a lot happier.
You know, I don't deal with yelling or conflict on a daily basis ever. It's great.
(22:10):
Yeah. There's a lot to be said for the peace in the home. Yeah.
But that's all the closure I needed is like, this isn't allowed.
That's what it is. This is not allowed in my life. I'm not allowed in my life.
I'll go say part of my closure didn't come from my kids.
And we talked about this. When I started waffling about divorce,
each one of my kids separately came to me and said, you're getting divorced. Please get divorced.
(22:32):
We like it so much better this way. Everybody's happier. here.
Like, just, just keep, you know, stay the course.
You have to have that moment where I was like, wait, what am I doing?
And to have them all go, uh-uh, don't, don't, keep going, keep going forward.
This is what was, what is needed for our family.
Just help sort of go, oh, you know, that was a
(22:53):
different kind of closure for me to have that support of my
kids and what it is that we were doing but well okay
i think mine came about slowly but at
the very end the last time my ex swapped lawyers and said we need to try to
work this out blah blah blah i really thought i had done you know i like to
(23:19):
read and investigate things i've done a lot of reading about generational generational,
behavioral issues in men, in families.
And I started looking at all the people that I knew that had cheated on their wives.
Well, what do you know? Their dads had done it too. Blah, blah,
blah. Did their parents stay together?
And I thought, you know, I really don't want my kids, especially my son,
(23:45):
to think that this is an okay thing to do.
And I really don't want my daughter to think that this is a way that someone should treat her.
Because at that point, he was saying, and he had said it for a long time,
if you can't forgive me, then we should just get a divorce.
He said it so many times, it was like the little carrot hanging over my hand.
I thought, I'm not cheap enough to be bought off by this.
(24:10):
Do you know what I'm saying? It almost felt like a bribery, like,
I'll keep you around if you can forgive me. And by that time,
I had already forgiven him for the infidelity.
And I was thinking, what is this about?
And does he really think that that's an enticement to stay married?
(24:30):
Like i don't know i don't know how to explain it but y'all know what i'm
saying like i i kept hearing it over and over
again and i kept thinking i always felt the world i always
felt like for the longest time i don't know if i've said this and this is a
bit more about the affairs but for the longest time every time we were intimate
all i could think of was the names of the two women he cheated on me with like
(24:55):
all the time i would be like well i'm in bed with with these two people now.
And that's just how I feel. Like, I don't, like, I was in a committed marriage.
If I was in an open marriage, it would be very different, but I wasn't.
I was in a committed marriage and I wasn't doing any of those things.
And here I am in bed with now two other women and I know their names,
(25:17):
Sarah and Amy. They're there.
As a nurse, you know what scared
scared me yeah i was not in bed and i
met the other woman yeah i was in bed with
everybody else that she had yeah been with and
all her affair partners that i found out about and you know when i had to get
tested i was like oh my i made i made my ex go get tested i made him go get
(25:40):
tested scared me to death but i couldn't i don't like but you're not supposed
to have to get over that because it's not supposed to be a thing, you know?
Well, trust is just so hard to get back once it's gone.
It is. You can do it. Other people have done it, but it takes a committed effort.
(26:02):
Well, not only that, it takes a lot of true, dedicated love from the person who cheated.
Yeah. You know, it has to be, even when they feel like you're being completely irrational, rational.
They have to step up and still be the loving person because they know that it's
going to be, yeah, it's going to be like PTSD.
(26:22):
It's going to come back and hit you when you absolutely least expect it.
And they're going to have to be okay with dealing with it again for the next 15, 20 years.
But it's a lot. So apparently, we have all figured out how to have our own closure.
We have not needed the men that we have left behind to step in and provide that
(26:45):
for us. Would y'all agree?
Yeah. Nor have, at least on my end, no one has expressed the need for any sort
of additional closure. Nope.
Not one of them, though.
Ants. i assume he's
good oh bunny sometimes
(27:08):
you just gotta laugh to the old tragedy i'm so sorry
i mean i i think i think he knew that i loved him yeah yeah before he before
he passed he knew that i loved him he knew that the kids loved him and i don't
think i think that he and i always felt like our our relationship moved from
husband and wife to some sort of extended family.
(27:28):
We were not, we weren't just divorced, never going to speak to each other again.
Yeah. We were in a bit of a codependence. It's just what it was.
It's just what it was. So I don't feel like he would have had any,
needed anything. Because you weren't angry.
No. I don't remember there being a lot of anger. No, especially,
yeah, especially when we got to that point.
He had had a girlfriend and I had had a guy that I was dating.
(27:50):
We didn't, there was not any anger between us. So thank goodness.
I think he knew he was very loved. That's good. And I didn't need closure from him, thank goodness.
I felt like I had already had everything from our marriage that I needed. Anyway.
All right, ladies. Are you all doing anything fabulous this week to live the
(28:14):
life that you love? With or without closure?
I got show. I got show. You have a kid who has a show, don't you?
I have a kid who has a show this weekend. I got show next weekend.
So when shows close yes i'll have closure
and then i know it's a closure
then i don't got show for a minute so that will be
nice but i'm also really excited about his
(28:37):
show because the our local company dream weavers did it and the director is
a really talented visual artist and he made exquisite i've seen the pictures
so i i made myself he at i choreographed a piece in it And last weekend,
he was like, well, do you want to stay and watch?
And I said, no, no, no. I'm going to be surprised. Let me be surprised.
(28:59):
So I haven't seen anything except the piece that I choreographed.
So I'm excited to see that this weekend.
And then next weekend is my show at school. And it's kind of our big, like, spring show.
And then I get to just, like, take a moment and get prepared for the big,
big show this summer, which is Sweeney Todd. And it's one of my favorites.
I can't wait. I can't wait. That would be fabulous.
(29:22):
How about you? well my son is coming here
for a very short period of time for the
weekend and so i'm excited about that yay so i think we'll have a good time
well i don't really have anything planned so i'm actually kind of excited about
that so this should be a good nice relaxing weekend nice good yes good but y'all
(29:44):
have a good weekend all right well happy weekend cheers ladies.
Thank y'all for joining us for champagne sunday see you next week.
Music.
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