January 4, 2023 • 45 mins
In the latest episode of Governing Chatters, Emma Knights is joined by long-time friend of NGA, Andy Buck to talk about the vital relationship between the chair of the board and the executive leader, whether that be a head teacher of a school or a chief executive of a trust and how that relationship can be supportive, challenging and secure.
Emma and Andy explore some of the key habits that help to build a rapport between the board and the senior leadership team. They discuss how to create conversations that are both supportive and challenging that ask the right questions.
Find out more about BASIC coaching at https://www.basic-coaching.com
You can find Andy Buck on twitter at https://twitter.com/andy__buck
If you want to order the Chair’s Handbook, visit https://www.nga.org.uk/CHB
For more on the Board 360 that was mentioned in the podcast, visit https://www.nga.org.uk/board-evaluation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello, I'm Emma Knights, chief executive here at the National Governance Association.
And I'm really pleased to be joined by Andy Buck.
And Andy, you may want to say a little bit more about your wide range of experience, but I think of you having been a friend of any Nga for many years, and certainly we've always been suggesting your book, leadership Matters, both to those that govern and those who lead our schools and trust.
(00:41):
But you have a long history both of being a teacher and then a leader and a trust executive, but now also a chair of a trust.
So as well as being an expert in leadership, you've really been walking this walk, which I think will be really useful to our listeners.
(01:05):
So I invited you to come and have this conversation with me because when I was updating the Chair's Handbook over the summer, I was really thinking much more about that vital relationship between the Chair of the Board and the executive leader, whether that be a head teacher of a school or a chief executive of a trust, and how we can really make that role, that relationship, as secure and supportive, but also challenging.
(01:37):
That's one of those absolute central tenants, isn't it, of governance? And it struck me that coaching would and should really be a part of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And thank you very much for the invitation and for the wonderful summary.
(02:00):
I'm very happy with that.
I've got nothing to add, really.
Sort of poacher turned gamekeeper, I suppose, in some senses now, but, yeah, I absolutely agree.
The relationship between the executive and the board to encompass all of those kind of levels of governance can be so different, can be so good, and can be really not so good, can be actually quite debilitating.
(02:31):
So I think for chairs really spending time to evaluate, how is that going? What am I doing to contribute to whatever that is, however good or not good that is, how do we want to work together? Those are all things that are implicit in coaching, I would say, in its widest of senses.
(03:01):
There are lots of ways that people talk about coaching.
And going back to Lockdown One, I had a diary full of speaking engagements and coaching and training and so on in schools, which was what I was doing then.
I've stopped doing that now.
And suddenly that diary, as you can imagine, at the beginning of Lockdown One, I just kept getting these emails.
(03:24):
Within a space of two weeks, six months worth of engagements disappeared from the calendar, which was just what it was like, wasn't it, if we were back to that time.
And I've got to be honest, it was a bit of me thinking, God, you know what, it's quite nice to step off this treadmill.
And I won't be the only one that probably felt that either, to some extent.
But it was also an opportunity because I'd been wanting to take the bit of Leadership Matters, that book that really talked about your style as a leader.
(03:56):
And within that, one of the things that I wrote about was the work that's been done on being directive, being pace setting, where it's kind of look at me, do what I'm doing, keep up with me, do it as well as me, but also thinking about being sometimes more democratic, where you empower others to make decisions.
(04:17):
If you're delegating a task, you're just clear what the goal is, but they can decide how they're going to achieve it.
And then coaching, which is really a kind of blend of all of those.
And I really wanted to sort of unpick that a bit.
So I decided to write a book called Basic Coaching Method that kind of pulled together both my own experience but also a lot of reading that I'd done on the subject to try and help shape that a bit.
(04:44):
And you were kind enough to include reference to it and a little bit about it in your updated Chairs Handbook.
But I nearly called the book Emma how to Be Great to talk with.
Right.
Because really, I think that if you adopt the sorts of approaches that I talk about and I try to put in practice I've tried to put in practice when I've been running an organization, but I've also very much trying to put into practice.
(05:12):
Now in my role as chair at Lead is if you pick up on some of those simple habits, they can just make you better to talk with.
And that is the foundation, I think, of building that sense of rapport which is so important between the chair and the executive.
(05:33):
And by that I'm predominantly talking about whoever's running the executive, but I would say applies to a large extent too, to the senior members of that executive team as well.
I think that comes up really strongly in the book.
That really did hit me.
(05:55):
I love the fact that you were also using a whole range of anecdotes about your relationship with your elderly uncle and the decisions that he was having to make and that a rang is so true, but it made me realize how important this is in all facets of one's life.
But as you say, if we're looking at that role of being an executive or a nonexecutive, it's all those conversations, isn't it, that you have.
(06:22):
I think the advice and experience that you were I think if you're great to talk with, what you do is you bring out the best in the other person and you help to manage the things that might sometimes stop them being as good as they could be in their decision making or in their approaches.
So, I mean, it just so happened that while I was writing this book, over the period of about six weeks, my uncle was facing all sorts of challenges, as you allude to, and I write about them in the book because I'm kind of his primary carer.
(06:53):
But he was in Horsham, I was in North London, and we couldn't travel, so we were doing a loss on the phone.
He wasn't well, there were all sorts of issues, and I won't go into all the details, but what I found was that looking at it from afar, I could see he was sometimes getting quite confused about things.
He's quite elderly, and I could see from afar what needed to happen.
(07:18):
But when I tried in those conversations to say, well, what I think you need to do or what we should do even, or whatever, I was just met by this very resistant kind of wall of fear combined with stubbornness and whatever.
Whereas when I tried to manage the temptation to do that because you think it'll be quicker and easier and more efficient and all those very real emotions that you feel in that situation and actually kind of ask him questions and then sometimes say, well, I've got a thought about that.
(07:55):
Do you want to hear it? So that it was invitational and he was in control.
Well, he took himself to where I thought he needed to go and sometimes took himself somewhere else that actually was better.
So that was very helpful when I was writing the book, because it happened all the way through the process, really.
(08:15):
And I think those sort of conversations that you were relaying, but also the book in its entirety, I think really helps those of us and I probably put myself into that box of perhaps jumping into advising a little bit too soon.
I think most people I imagine most people who listen to this podcast will sort of understand that distinction between being a mentor because you've done the role yourself, and you've got that sort of professional, lived experience to being a coach.
(08:50):
That's encouraging learning through self reflection, but it's a bit more of a spectrum, isn't it, than that? And I think, again, your book helps describe how one could slightly morph into the other for a while, but you do it consciously.
It might help to say a bit more about that.
Yeah, no, I think you've touched on the key things there.
(09:11):
So one of the models that I drew on in writing the book is it's been around for, I don't know, 50 years, nearly.
Someone called Miles Downey, who was at the beginning of thinking about this in the he came up with, as you say, a continuum.
He called it the coaching continuum.
So at one end you've got where you're being quite directive, and at the other end, where you're being non directive.
(09:36):
And so towards the non directive, you you've really got asking questions.
Listening a really powerful thing that you can do as a coach, which is to play back.
Sounds like what you're saying is and if you're in a conversation with a CEO or a head and you play back, it's enormously powerful, because when it builds rapport they've been listening.
(10:00):
They're interested in what I'm saying.
So that almost in itself builds relationship and starts to build trust.
They care about what I'm saying.
Secondly, it's a great way to check that you've understood but thirdly what happens when you play back is you prompt more thinking on the part of the other person.
If I say to someone sounds like what you're saying is X, Y and z and by the way you can sometimes helpfully organize what they said for them and summary it or pray see it in some way.
(10:30):
Rarely if ever do they say to me that's it, Andy.
They'll go yes and or yes, but so they'll qualify or they'll have another thought.
In other words, it promotes them to do the thinking.
So that's all at the kind of nondirective listening, playing back, asking questions and so on.
(10:51):
If though you kind of think I've got some knowledge here or a perspective sometimes it might not even be knowledge but it might just be a perspective or a viewpoint saying to someone I've got a thought on this or I've got a perspective.
However, it just comes up naturally in the conversation.
(11:11):
But you get them on board with you and when you do that there are degrees of it.
So you might be kind of just suggesting or a bit stronger than that, might be advising a bit stronger than that, might be actually instructing or modeling.
(11:31):
The further you go down that more directional route the further you're going along that continuum.
But what I realized when I was writing the book was actually there's one really simple habit as a chair that you can adopt that means you almost get this right automatically without you almost use the right leadership style without even worrying about it, without even realizing.
(11:55):
And that simple habit is to ask first if you start every conversation or every bit of a conversation by asking some questions you're not putting a ceiling on what the other person can do.
You're giving them that sense of ownership.
You're building rapport and relationship because you're showing interest in them.
You're better understanding the context and the front line which is sometimes challenging when you're a chair.
(12:18):
And then through those good questions and we talk about that in the coaching method about how to ask good questions you can help them with their thinking.
At a strategic level I think it's really important to recognize that this isn't about going into the operational and that's something you have to keep in your head and that's an emotion that you sometimes have to manage.
(12:41):
And for me that's harder perhaps than for some because I've done a similar role to the person who I'm now the chair for.
But because of that I can ask better questions but I have to really manage the temptation not to either go into advice giving mode too quickly, as you were saying earlier, but at the same time you've always know you've got that there as an option.
(13:08):
There are four habits in the basic coaching method.
Ask first, frame your questions well, and the best questions don't start with could you or should you or have you or why.
They start with what or how.
Questions that start with what or how, number one are intrinsically open.
(13:29):
I'm not leading the conversation anywhere.
And secondly, they're getting them to do the work because they have to do the thinking.
If you'd make suggestions, because if you say to someone, have you thought about actually you're not really asking a question, are you telling them what you're really saying? Yeah, I think what you ought to do is this.
(13:52):
So framing questions well, listening hard and then playing back and in your playback, organizing the thinking, if appropriate.
And I think one of the really important things about this conversation that we're having in terms of the role of the chair is that we're not asking chairs to do something additional, are we? Because we talk absolutely rightly and properly about the amount of time and effort that leaders are having to expend leading their schools and trust.
(14:26):
But it's not quite as visible how much time that chairs, and you'll obviously know this yourself, chairs and vice chairs are absolutely spending at the moment with the roles that they're carrying out.
So we're all always really conscious at nga that we want to try and say, actually, you could do it this way, but it'll save you time in the long run.
(14:50):
It's not an additional responsibility.
We're really talking here, aren't we, about how you do that absolutely fundamental part of good governance, which is asking, as you said, the right questions.
That sort of at the heart of and I think technically that has always been there and has kind of always been understood.
(15:12):
Think about your excellent 21 Questions series.
They are questions, aren't they? They are things that you can ask, but I think they might be around the technical.
There's also the questions you can ask.
I mean, I've drawn the work of someone called he's got a fine name, Michael Bungay Stanier, who's written a book called The Coaching Habit.
(15:37):
And I unpicked that book a lot in the basic, you know, I've just been a magpie and stolen what I think are the best things that are out there.
This book has sold millions of copies.
And actually it's a leadership book.
It's not a coaching book.
But it exactly goes to the point this is about how, as a leader, you can be great to talk with.
And there's seven chapters based around seven key questions.
(16:00):
And the first question, there are two that I think are brilliant.
The first one is, you know, at the beginning of a conversation, we probably did this.
How are you? And the reply is well, I'm fine, how are you? We almost say it even when we're not feeling great, we say it.
There's an almost automatic response.
It's just the social niceties.
Whereas if as a chair, you say to your head or your exec member, what's on your mind? Starts with what? What's on your mind? Implicit in that is, I'm here to help.
(16:34):
Implicit in that is I'm a safe space where you can talk stuff through.
Implicit in that is, I'm not judging you, it's not like, what do you need help with? Or what's your problem? Or what's your goal? Which sounds terribly coachy.
It's a very human question and that's why I love it and it's amazing.
I used that question so much when I was a professional coach.
(16:58):
What's on your mind? And I think one of the things about the basic coach, so the word basic stands for the stages in the conversation, and the B is about background.
And the most well known coaching model is Grow, which starts with G, which is the goal, and RA in basic is the aim.
Because I don't think you can get to really properly talk about an aim until you've established what's going on, both for your benefit, to be able to ask better questions, but also to help the person make sense of their current reality.
(17:30):
And a lovely open question like what's on your mind is great, often combined with something positive.
So since we last spoke, what are you really pleased about? What's gone really well? That can really because one of the basic qualities that we have, those four habits, we also have four qualities, one of those is about staying positive and helping your coachee or your executive or head to feel in that positive space.
(17:57):
That's just so important at the moment, isn't it? So many of the conversations, I think, have been around some of the challenges and that's putting it in a polite way.
And there has been quite a bit of despondency, I think, in some of those conversations this term that lead execs have been having with their chairs.
(18:19):
And that's understandable given the context, funding context, the recruitment context, I think.
Yeah, your point about what's gone well and focusing on the positive is incredibly important, I think, now.
Yeah, because the system actually has been remarkable and very resilient and the leaders in it are doing amazing things.
(18:42):
And part of your job as a chair is to put all those out and get people to see them.
So rather, I kind of think of it as when you're climbing a mountain, you need to break things down into doable stages of where you want to get to each day so that it's not this massive mountain that seems impossible to climb.
(19:02):
But at the end of each day, you need to look back and see how far you've climbed, where you've come from.
And I just think that's the gift you have as a chair is to help give the executive or the head the space to celebrate.
And then they start to look forward to those conversations rather than feeling, oh, I've got my catch up with the chair to be got through.
(19:27):
I've been in that situation.
I've had really good chairs where I've really looked forward to that conversation where that person was really great to talk with, I felt had got my back, who cared about me and my success, who understood and was really up for listening, but played back.
(19:49):
So I thought, okay, yeah, he's got it.
And then I've had other chairs where all they wanted to do was to say what they wanted to say because they thought that was what they should be doing.
Well, it is a criticism, really, but it came from the good place.
They thought that was what their job was.
(20:09):
And they talk about we've talked about earlier support and challenge.
So they thought, Well, I've got to be challenging.
Well, challenging doesn't mean you're unpleasant or unsupportive.
It just means you ask questions that really get people thinking in a good way that's helpful, ultimately for the organization.
And that's really what I think you have to try and keep in your mind as you're having those conversations.
(20:33):
So some of the challenge that I've had back from Trust executives and indeed, actually some individual head teachers when talking about this and the applicability of coaching to this relationship and maybe if I just talked about good conversations and good questions.
(20:55):
It might not have raised the same worries, but people were on occasion saying, oh, I can't be completely honest with my chair because they're also my line manager.
In effect.
And I think it'd be really good to try and tease that out, which I think perhaps surprises me because, like you, well, I'm still a chief executive and I'm answerable to my board, and I have had many chairs over the years because I've been a chief executive in a couple of roles for quite a long time.
(21:27):
And we have the rule that no chair can serve longer than three years.
So I don't get into that position of having someone for a decade.
And certainly my current chair, Linda, is absolutely superb at doing the sort of things that we've been talking about here.
So I find it quite hard to put myself in that position where I wouldn't be open with Lynn and tell her exactly what was on my mind.
(21:59):
But I think some leaders are a little bit hesitant to do that.
And that might have been because of previous experience that perhaps hadn't gone as well as they wanted, but it might simply be right.
They're the chair, and I have this very particular relationship with them over there.
(22:20):
And then I'm going to have different systems for support, mentoring, coaching, which we would say, and I'm sure you would too, Andy, is you still do that.
A chair doesn't replace that other system, whatever you choose to use.
(22:40):
The last thing you said that I think is absolutely right and critical, actually, because I guess whenever there is a line management or accountability, let's call it what you want relationship, of course that is going to have an influence on those conversations because to some extent, there is a power differential that will never go away.
(23:09):
It will always be there.
And that's right.
But that doesn't stop one as a chair, getting the benefits of some of those approaches in working with that, because there's probably a bit of ground in between the two.
There's always going to be some things you'd never say, but there are a lot of things that you might say if you felt like you trusted the person sufficiently to be able to share them.
(23:33):
Whereas if you saw it very much as just a transactional relationship where you're going through the motions, if you like those things in that middle ground, that in between ground probably wouldn't get said.
And I think also it's really important to recognize that we are all different and it's the combination of the chair and the CEO that will ultimately define how that relationship works.
(23:59):
And that's right, too.
The way that I work with Diana at Lead is not the template how everyone should work.
And it's taken us a year to get to that.
And you were talking about how long this can take.
I've been lucky because she's a very values led person and we've had some really good conversations.
(24:20):
But I'd like to say anyway, when Dana listens to this, you might think otherwise.
I'd like to think that we've built a really good working relationship now where we kind of understand how it works on both sides.
And part of that is, of course, is talking about that.
And one of the things you do when you formally coach someone is you do something called contracting, don't you, at the beginning where you agree the ground rules of what's confidential and what happens if I don't like it, can I get someone? All of that? How's this going to work? And I always start that by saying, what do you want? And that's another question from Michael Bungie.
(24:58):
What do you want from me as a chair? Apart from the fact I've got these three big things to do around educational outcomes, money and governance, what do you want? And then say, okay, so how there's what and how how can we make that work? In practice, then, in a way, because this relationship and these conversations, of course, as the chair, you're the guardian of the charity on behalf of the trustees, but you are also there to bring out the best in the exec.
(25:26):
Yes.
And so asking that question, I think, is really, really important.
And I think particularly if you're running a trust, you definitely I can't imagine not having a coach stroke mentor.
I mean, I have one now.
John Cole's mentors me in my role as a chair.
(25:48):
Right, that's interesting.
And there have been two or three.
We don't sort of have regular meetings, but he's there if I feel like I just want someone to talk it through that I know because John, I've worked with him before, I can completely trust his confidentiality and I can have really honest conversations with him where I feel able to say exactly what's on my mind.
(26:10):
So in the same way that I might not be able to say all of those things to someone who I'm working with.
Again, I'm not suggesting that every chair has to have a mentor, but I definitely think if you're in the CEO role, having someone who you can talk to, who's only got one agenda, which is you, whereas a chair, you've got the organization and the person, haven't you? And so that makes that much more difficult.
(26:35):
Absolutely.
And I think that point you make about support for chairs again, we overlook certainly in the system and as part of our chairs development program, we encourage people to sort of stay in contact after the program ends.
And so often that happens.
And if they've been working in triads, those often survive that period, just because, as you say, you can then have a conversation with someone who has no vested interest in any way, shape or form.
(27:08):
What would you do in this situation? And that doesn't happen nearly as often across the sector as one would hope, because by definition, head teachers and trust execs no other people working in the system.
Whereas often if you're a chair, or particularly a chair that hasn't been an executive or a teacher before, you don't have that.
(27:32):
Your network is not as part of the school.
You've just reminded me of something else actually that's happened recently.
So obviously we've just had conversations in the last term about performance of the executive.
It's happened right through the organization.
But I was involved in the conversation with the CEO and we have an external advisor that comes in and manages that process.
(27:57):
And interestingly, actually, that person is also involved in quite a lot of the, if not all of the external advice for the head teachers.
So their ability to triangulate what's being said in all of those different conversations I think is very powerful.
But I also did a 360 at the end of my first year as a chair with the exec and all of the trustees based on and it's probably a dirty word now, but I think I use the CST definition of what makes for good governance of Mats or something like that.
(28:37):
I've subsequently seen you've also got something really good on this.
But anyway, we created this survey monkey of questions and actually I then asked the external advisor and the trust agreed to fund this for them to coach me through the outcomes of that information because I just felt that would be reassuring for me that I was reading it right.
(29:02):
But they were bringing with it their external perspective of the environment in which I'm operating.
That was very useful.
Yes.
And that's exactly how our 360s we did it both for boards but also for chairs.
And that's exactly the model that we have.
Once you've done the 360 evaluation online, then you have a real live conversation with one of our consultants for exactly that reason.
(29:29):
There's always something isn't that that comes up that actually you need to talk through, that you didn't realize that other people perceived you.
But again, a person doing that will also really focus on the positives, because when we just read it ourselves, we just don't we skip all of that nice stuff and just focus on the thing that really yeah, things that jump out.
(29:56):
One of the other things I wanted to ask you about, Andy, was the difference that you've seen this make adopting a sort of coaching approach to questioning in governance.
So I was going to say impact, which is why I hesitated.
But impact makes it sound as though I'm wanting a measure, which I'm not.
(30:20):
I'm just thinking of some of the criticisms that sometimes people might throw or questions maybe people might ask about.
Is this all really rather lovely, but actually a bit wooly? Where does it actually get us? What difference does it make? Or equally, I've heard people say, but once you get to that sort of level, you should be able to do your reflection yourself.
(30:48):
You don't necessarily need someone to take you through that conversation.
I think what you described there is quite common, and I also think it's quite understandable, actually, in lots of ways.
And it's interesting as well.
I mean, I was ahead of a school, ahead of two schools, but for 13 years altogether.
(31:12):
But it wasn't until my 10th year that I really kind of suddenly, very late in the day, saw the benefit of using a coaching approach.
I was ten years ahead before I had a coach.
And what was really interesting about it, if I think about if my chair of governors had adopted a coaching approach with me, which he didn't particularly, what happens is that if the person asks questions in the right way, and doesn't jump too quickly to give advice.
(31:50):
And if they've got that demeanor I mean, another one of the basic qualities is keeping curious if their whole demeanor is I'm interested in or I'm just wondering or could you? Say a bit more about what happens is that you relax.
You stop being in a kind of defensive mode where you're fight or freeze.
(32:15):
You're way past that.
So much so that people can ask you questions that your brain really engages with and really thinks that really challenge you without you getting defensive.
Because you can ask really difficult questions.
But if the person just bats them.
Back and tries to obfuscate the issue with lots of data, for example, I've seen that and you're left thinking because you might not be an expert in the thing that they're talking about and you think, well, that sounds very impressive, but you haven't got a clue.
(32:49):
Rather than the person saying, do you know what, actually that's really interesting, I haven't thought of it like that.
Now, that only comes from you building that trust and building that relationship with a person where you can ask those questions or hold the mirror up for a person and say you seem quite down at the moment.
(33:12):
Now, once you've done that, once you've got to that stage, you're able to ask much more challenging questions than you would be if you just had a transactional relationship.
So I think that there's superficial challenge and then there is real challenge to thinking that taking a kind of coaching approach, which doesn't mean you're coaching as such, it's using these, you know, ask first framework, listen hard, play back, build trust, keep curious, show empathy and stay positive.
(33:48):
Those key eight tenets of of the method that I write about, if you just do those things, the difference, the transformation.
So yeah, it's not warm and fluffy at all.
If anything, it's the opposite because once that relationship builds, you can have much more honest conversations.
Never be 100% honest, let's be honest, it's not like a purely confidential coaching relationship because as we said before about the power relationship, but it will be a lot more powerful as a result of some of those.
(34:19):
And you know what, as you said before, this isn't more work, this is just nuancing the way you do what you already do.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's really helpful.
And it also isn't it about making the time to have the conversations.
But we're not talking about hours on end, are we? But this is perhaps slightly one of the things I think that we Nga are slightly concerned about, given that context that I mentioned before.
(34:53):
The funding, the resources, the needing to balance the budget that we've been encouraging schools and trusts for years and years to actually make the time for CPD more generally, but also for middle managers as well as senior managers.
To actually have time to do this sort of thing and to manage to manage well and not try and do it around the edges of a day packed with lessons.
(35:24):
And I think governing boards are absolutely with us on that.
We do not cover across trustees and governors who do not want to invest in staff development.
I think everybody gets the fact that if you want better education for pupils, you need to invest in developing your staff.
But it's a more difficult case to make when resources are so short.
(35:48):
And that's not just in terms of money, it's also at the moment in terms of people as well, isn't it? So I was just thinking maybe we should round off our conversation by sort of making that case for investment in people.
Have you got any sort of words of advice or wisdom on that front? Because that's really your business, isn't it? Leadership development.
(36:12):
Yeah, there's a couple of thoughts that were going through my mind as you were talking there, Emma, and then places I can point people if it's helpful.
So there are some like Nga, there are lots of organizations out there that can help courses or programs have their place for people, ideally before they take the step to take on the role.
(36:41):
Like in the police, you do your sergeant's course, you get your sergeant's ticket or badge or whatever it is, and then you're eligible to become a sergeant.
Sometimes we're backfilling a bit too much in education, I think.
I'm a middle leader now, I better have some middle leader training.
But in the context of current scenarios, the system has got millions of pounds of apprenticeship levy sitting in it.
(37:08):
And there are organizations like, for example, the National College for Education that will run level three, level four, level five, level seven, even MBAs where people can spend their apprenticeship levy.
In fact, Diana just just did hers got a distinction in in the MBA with National College of Education.
But there are lots of people that offer that.
(37:31):
So I think courses and programs have a place and by the way, if you can find apprenticeships that will enable you to get some of that money back into your school budget, that helps a lot on the finances because then it's just a question of the person giving up the time to do it.
But the thing that I suppose is really only dawned on me latterly since I was ahead, actually subsequent to being ahead is really the power of the expertise that already exists within the schools and the power of how those conversations happen.
(38:04):
And so one of the things I was saying earlier, Lockdown, when I wrote the book and people started reading it and then they said, oh, we want to train people in this.
And so I went and did some online training with some of the schools and then I couldn't keep up with the schools that wanted it and I was doing the same thing over and over again.
I thought this is a waste of my time and could be much more flexible for people.
(38:29):
So I recorded little videos and created a little qualification.
So you then get people being trained in this, because I know schools where all the leaders in the schools have been trained in how to have these sorts of conversations, so that when they're doing a lesson observation, they can then use this approach to ask first, give the teacher the ownership of the thing, but go into giving advice mode if needed.
(38:57):
So that you start by asking first and only offer advice or take on something or model it as a conscious decision.
As we were saying earlier.
And then, of course, the mat said, well, can't we run the training? So there's now a train the trainer kind of I suppose it's a franchise of it, I suppose, where we've got about 50 mats who are running their own training and awarding their own certificates of competence in doing this.
(39:22):
Now, the cost of that relative to the number of people that are going to benefit from it and whether it's basic coaching or some other you know, there are lots of lots of other approaches out there.
I sound like I'm on the BBC now, but I think the key point I'm making here is there is a lot of knowledge, experience, talent and care and and relationships within organizations.
(39:46):
And therefore the biggest challenge is how do you protect the time to allow for those conversations to happen? And that's where I think the leadership has to make some bold decisions.
So I can remember going back to the 1990s where as a school, I was working in a school in North London, it was brilliant.
On our what we then call baker days.
(40:08):
We pretty much most of those five days a year.
Got time in our teams, got time in departments and a bit of time in year teams, but mainly time in departments so we could just do so much stuff together and have these conversations and create that sense of team because that time was protected.
(40:30):
And if you do start to get more radical, as I think we need to as a sector that we change the social perceptions around marking which there's so much evidence now to say that if you were doing a cost benefit analysis of the time and energy that goes into marking from teachers and the benefit it brings relative to saying actually, what we should be doing is looking at duplicate response to what's going on in a lesson.
(40:56):
Drawing out from that, what are the bits that I need to change the next time I teach this? And what are the things I need to tell the whole class the next time we meet that they need to bear in mind, goodness me, that would save so much time that could be used then for these sorts of conversations.
And it was interesting, wasn't it, that a few years ago, pre Pandemic, we were talking about that and much more, weren't we? The whole workload project.
(41:20):
And that was one of the sort of three big things, along with along with data as well.
And I think so much else has been happening.
Those conversations have been pushed to the periphery, so we're trying to get trust to bring them back centrally.
And actually, it was interesting you mentioned the apprenticeship, Levy, because Steve Edmonds, my director of advice and guidance, in a podcast earlier with Mandy Coulter, who, of course, you'll know, is talent architects, but also the national College as well, talking about how to sort of embed a philosophy.
(41:59):
Not just philosophy, a practice of people development right through your organization.
So we sort of reinforcing that today.
But before we wrap up, Andy, is there anything else you want to say in conclusion about encouraging and not just chairs it's actually other trustees and governors as well.
(42:24):
To really think hard or reflect being one of the big words of this podcast on how they question and what a difference that yeah, I think if I was to say anything, it would be the four key habits, really, that people might want to go from this and think, right, I'm really going to try and work on those.
(42:47):
Or maybe just pick two of them.
But asking first framing questions well, because why can feel like you've got to defend a position, whereas how or what or what or how usually in that order, really listening.
And then the other thing that I think is is playing back.
Sounds like what you're saying is for people listening to this, just try some of those things.
(43:12):
Or, you know, if you want to read more about it, you could buy the book.
But the whole point of this is just the whole reason I wrote it is because I've just become so passionate, because I've seen it from my own experience on both sides of the coin, the difference it can make.
And it's all about a kind of mindset, really.
Yes.
A different approach to those conversations or just a slightly it may well be that the people are doing some of this, but not maybe so consciously, and it's about thinking about how you have those conversations.
(43:44):
No, it is absolutely that.
And I think actually that's quite reassuring for people as well, because being a chair of a school or a trust is sometimes quite a daunting thing.
And you worry about, am I doing it well enough? Well, actually, to read some stuff that actually makes you think, oh, okay, I'm not doing so bad after all, I think is good.
(44:04):
We should celebrate a lot more in our sector than we do.
We definitely should.
That's a great place to leave it and celebrate, hopefully, relationship strengthening between heads, executives and their governing boards.
So thank you so much, Andy, for this conversation, but also, more importantly, all the work that you're doing to extend good leadership practice across our sector.
(44:34):
It's been an absolute pleasure.
And this will probably date the podcast now, but have a lovely Christmas.
Exactly.
A happy 2023 to you too.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Bye.
Hello, I'm Emma Knights, chief executive here at the National Governance Association.
And I'm really pleased to be joined by Andy Buck.
And Andy, you may want to say a little bit more about your wide range of experience, but I think of you having been a friend of any Nga for many years, and certainly we've always been suggesting your book, leadership Matters, both to those that govern and those who lead our schools and trust.
(00:41):
But you have a long history both of being a teacher and then a leader and a trust executive, but now also a chair of a trust.
So as well as being an expert in leadership, you've really been walking this walk, which I think will be really useful to our listeners.
(01:05):
So I invited you to come and have this conversation with me because when I was updating the Chair's Handbook over the summer, I was really thinking much more about that vital relationship between the Chair of the Board and the executive leader, whether that be a head teacher of a school or a chief executive of a trust, and how we can really make that role, that relationship, as secure and supportive, but also challenging.
(01:37):
That's one of those absolute central tenants, isn't it, of governance? And it struck me that coaching would and should really be a part of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And thank you very much for the invitation and for the wonderful summary.
(02:00):
I'm very happy with that.
I've got nothing to add, really.
Sort of poacher turned gamekeeper, I suppose, in some senses now, but, yeah, I absolutely agree.
The relationship between the executive and the board to encompass all of those kind of levels of governance can be so different, can be so good, and can be really not so good, can be actually quite debilitating.
(02:31):
So I think for chairs really spending time to evaluate, how is that going? What am I doing to contribute to whatever that is, however good or not good that is, how do we want to work together? Those are all things that are implicit in coaching, I would say, in its widest of senses.
(03:01):
There are lots of ways that people talk about coaching.
And going back to Lockdown One, I had a diary full of speaking engagements and coaching and training and so on in schools, which was what I was doing then.
I've stopped doing that now.
And suddenly that diary, as you can imagine, at the beginning of Lockdown One, I just kept getting these emails.
(03:24):
Within a space of two weeks, six months worth of engagements disappeared from the calendar, which was just what it was like, wasn't it, if we were back to that time.
And I've got to be honest, it was a bit of me thinking, God, you know what, it's quite nice to step off this treadmill.
And I won't be the only one that probably felt that either, to some extent.
But it was also an opportunity because I'd been wanting to take the bit of Leadership Matters, that book that really talked about your style as a leader.
(03:56):
And within that, one of the things that I wrote about was the work that's been done on being directive, being pace setting, where it's kind of look at me, do what I'm doing, keep up with me, do it as well as me, but also thinking about being sometimes more democratic, where you empower others to make decisions.
(04:17):
If you're delegating a task, you're just clear what the goal is, but they can decide how they're going to achieve it.
And then coaching, which is really a kind of blend of all of those.
And I really wanted to sort of unpick that a bit.
So I decided to write a book called Basic Coaching Method that kind of pulled together both my own experience but also a lot of reading that I'd done on the subject to try and help shape that a bit.
(04:44):
And you were kind enough to include reference to it and a little bit about it in your updated Chairs Handbook.
But I nearly called the book Emma how to Be Great to talk with.
Right.
Because really, I think that if you adopt the sorts of approaches that I talk about and I try to put in practice I've tried to put in practice when I've been running an organization, but I've also very much trying to put into practice.
(05:12):
Now in my role as chair at Lead is if you pick up on some of those simple habits, they can just make you better to talk with.
And that is the foundation, I think, of building that sense of rapport which is so important between the chair and the executive.
(05:33):
And by that I'm predominantly talking about whoever's running the executive, but I would say applies to a large extent too, to the senior members of that executive team as well.
I think that comes up really strongly in the book.
That really did hit me.
(05:55):
I love the fact that you were also using a whole range of anecdotes about your relationship with your elderly uncle and the decisions that he was having to make and that a rang is so true, but it made me realize how important this is in all facets of one's life.
But as you say, if we're looking at that role of being an executive or a nonexecutive, it's all those conversations, isn't it, that you have.
(06:22):
I think the advice and experience that you were I think if you're great to talk with, what you do is you bring out the best in the other person and you help to manage the things that might sometimes stop them being as good as they could be in their decision making or in their approaches.
So, I mean, it just so happened that while I was writing this book, over the period of about six weeks, my uncle was facing all sorts of challenges, as you allude to, and I write about them in the book because I'm kind of his primary carer.
(06:53):
But he was in Horsham, I was in North London, and we couldn't travel, so we were doing a loss on the phone.
He wasn't well, there were all sorts of issues, and I won't go into all the details, but what I found was that looking at it from afar, I could see he was sometimes getting quite confused about things.
He's quite elderly, and I could see from afar what needed to happen.
(07:18):
But when I tried in those conversations to say, well, what I think you need to do or what we should do even, or whatever, I was just met by this very resistant kind of wall of fear combined with stubbornness and whatever.
Whereas when I tried to manage the temptation to do that because you think it'll be quicker and easier and more efficient and all those very real emotions that you feel in that situation and actually kind of ask him questions and then sometimes say, well, I've got a thought about that.
(07:55):
Do you want to hear it? So that it was invitational and he was in control.
Well, he took himself to where I thought he needed to go and sometimes took himself somewhere else that actually was better.
So that was very helpful when I was writing the book, because it happened all the way through the process, really.
(08:15):
And I think those sort of conversations that you were relaying, but also the book in its entirety, I think really helps those of us and I probably put myself into that box of perhaps jumping into advising a little bit too soon.
I think most people I imagine most people who listen to this podcast will sort of understand that distinction between being a mentor because you've done the role yourself, and you've got that sort of professional, lived experience to being a coach.
(08:50):
That's encouraging learning through self reflection, but it's a bit more of a spectrum, isn't it, than that? And I think, again, your book helps describe how one could slightly morph into the other for a while, but you do it consciously.
It might help to say a bit more about that.
Yeah, no, I think you've touched on the key things there.
(09:11):
So one of the models that I drew on in writing the book is it's been around for, I don't know, 50 years, nearly.
Someone called Miles Downey, who was at the beginning of thinking about this in the he came up with, as you say, a continuum.
He called it the coaching continuum.
So at one end you've got where you're being quite directive, and at the other end, where you're being non directive.
(09:36):
And so towards the non directive, you you've really got asking questions.
Listening a really powerful thing that you can do as a coach, which is to play back.
Sounds like what you're saying is and if you're in a conversation with a CEO or a head and you play back, it's enormously powerful, because when it builds rapport they've been listening.
(10:00):
They're interested in what I'm saying.
So that almost in itself builds relationship and starts to build trust.
They care about what I'm saying.
Secondly, it's a great way to check that you've understood but thirdly what happens when you play back is you prompt more thinking on the part of the other person.
If I say to someone sounds like what you're saying is X, Y and z and by the way you can sometimes helpfully organize what they said for them and summary it or pray see it in some way.
(10:30):
Rarely if ever do they say to me that's it, Andy.
They'll go yes and or yes, but so they'll qualify or they'll have another thought.
In other words, it promotes them to do the thinking.
So that's all at the kind of nondirective listening, playing back, asking questions and so on.
(10:51):
If though you kind of think I've got some knowledge here or a perspective sometimes it might not even be knowledge but it might just be a perspective or a viewpoint saying to someone I've got a thought on this or I've got a perspective.
However, it just comes up naturally in the conversation.
(11:11):
But you get them on board with you and when you do that there are degrees of it.
So you might be kind of just suggesting or a bit stronger than that, might be advising a bit stronger than that, might be actually instructing or modeling.
(11:31):
The further you go down that more directional route the further you're going along that continuum.
But what I realized when I was writing the book was actually there's one really simple habit as a chair that you can adopt that means you almost get this right automatically without you almost use the right leadership style without even worrying about it, without even realizing.
(11:55):
And that simple habit is to ask first if you start every conversation or every bit of a conversation by asking some questions you're not putting a ceiling on what the other person can do.
You're giving them that sense of ownership.
You're building rapport and relationship because you're showing interest in them.
You're better understanding the context and the front line which is sometimes challenging when you're a chair.
(12:18):
And then through those good questions and we talk about that in the coaching method about how to ask good questions you can help them with their thinking.
At a strategic level I think it's really important to recognize that this isn't about going into the operational and that's something you have to keep in your head and that's an emotion that you sometimes have to manage.
(12:41):
And for me that's harder perhaps than for some because I've done a similar role to the person who I'm now the chair for.
But because of that I can ask better questions but I have to really manage the temptation not to either go into advice giving mode too quickly, as you were saying earlier, but at the same time you've always know you've got that there as an option.
(13:08):
There are four habits in the basic coaching method.
Ask first, frame your questions well, and the best questions don't start with could you or should you or have you or why.
They start with what or how.
Questions that start with what or how, number one are intrinsically open.
(13:29):
I'm not leading the conversation anywhere.
And secondly, they're getting them to do the work because they have to do the thinking.
If you'd make suggestions, because if you say to someone, have you thought about actually you're not really asking a question, are you telling them what you're really saying? Yeah, I think what you ought to do is this.
(13:52):
So framing questions well, listening hard and then playing back and in your playback, organizing the thinking, if appropriate.
And I think one of the really important things about this conversation that we're having in terms of the role of the chair is that we're not asking chairs to do something additional, are we? Because we talk absolutely rightly and properly about the amount of time and effort that leaders are having to expend leading their schools and trust.
(14:26):
But it's not quite as visible how much time that chairs, and you'll obviously know this yourself, chairs and vice chairs are absolutely spending at the moment with the roles that they're carrying out.
So we're all always really conscious at nga that we want to try and say, actually, you could do it this way, but it'll save you time in the long run.
(14:50):
It's not an additional responsibility.
We're really talking here, aren't we, about how you do that absolutely fundamental part of good governance, which is asking, as you said, the right questions.
That sort of at the heart of and I think technically that has always been there and has kind of always been understood.
(15:12):
Think about your excellent 21 Questions series.
They are questions, aren't they? They are things that you can ask, but I think they might be around the technical.
There's also the questions you can ask.
I mean, I've drawn the work of someone called he's got a fine name, Michael Bungay Stanier, who's written a book called The Coaching Habit.
(15:37):
And I unpicked that book a lot in the basic, you know, I've just been a magpie and stolen what I think are the best things that are out there.
This book has sold millions of copies.
And actually it's a leadership book.
It's not a coaching book.
But it exactly goes to the point this is about how, as a leader, you can be great to talk with.
And there's seven chapters based around seven key questions.
(16:00):
And the first question, there are two that I think are brilliant.
The first one is, you know, at the beginning of a conversation, we probably did this.
How are you? And the reply is well, I'm fine, how are you? We almost say it even when we're not feeling great, we say it.
There's an almost automatic response.
It's just the social niceties.
Whereas if as a chair, you say to your head or your exec member, what's on your mind? Starts with what? What's on your mind? Implicit in that is, I'm here to help.
(16:34):
Implicit in that is I'm a safe space where you can talk stuff through.
Implicit in that is, I'm not judging you, it's not like, what do you need help with? Or what's your problem? Or what's your goal? Which sounds terribly coachy.
It's a very human question and that's why I love it and it's amazing.
I used that question so much when I was a professional coach.
(16:58):
What's on your mind? And I think one of the things about the basic coach, so the word basic stands for the stages in the conversation, and the B is about background.
And the most well known coaching model is Grow, which starts with G, which is the goal, and RA in basic is the aim.
Because I don't think you can get to really properly talk about an aim until you've established what's going on, both for your benefit, to be able to ask better questions, but also to help the person make sense of their current reality.
(17:30):
And a lovely open question like what's on your mind is great, often combined with something positive.
So since we last spoke, what are you really pleased about? What's gone really well? That can really because one of the basic qualities that we have, those four habits, we also have four qualities, one of those is about staying positive and helping your coachee or your executive or head to feel in that positive space.
(17:57):
That's just so important at the moment, isn't it? So many of the conversations, I think, have been around some of the challenges and that's putting it in a polite way.
And there has been quite a bit of despondency, I think, in some of those conversations this term that lead execs have been having with their chairs.
(18:19):
And that's understandable given the context, funding context, the recruitment context, I think.
Yeah, your point about what's gone well and focusing on the positive is incredibly important, I think, now.
Yeah, because the system actually has been remarkable and very resilient and the leaders in it are doing amazing things.
(18:42):
And part of your job as a chair is to put all those out and get people to see them.
So rather, I kind of think of it as when you're climbing a mountain, you need to break things down into doable stages of where you want to get to each day so that it's not this massive mountain that seems impossible to climb.
(19:02):
But at the end of each day, you need to look back and see how far you've climbed, where you've come from.
And I just think that's the gift you have as a chair is to help give the executive or the head the space to celebrate.
And then they start to look forward to those conversations rather than feeling, oh, I've got my catch up with the chair to be got through.
(19:27):
I've been in that situation.
I've had really good chairs where I've really looked forward to that conversation where that person was really great to talk with, I felt had got my back, who cared about me and my success, who understood and was really up for listening, but played back.
(19:49):
So I thought, okay, yeah, he's got it.
And then I've had other chairs where all they wanted to do was to say what they wanted to say because they thought that was what they should be doing.
Well, it is a criticism, really, but it came from the good place.
They thought that was what their job was.
(20:09):
And they talk about we've talked about earlier support and challenge.
So they thought, Well, I've got to be challenging.
Well, challenging doesn't mean you're unpleasant or unsupportive.
It just means you ask questions that really get people thinking in a good way that's helpful, ultimately for the organization.
And that's really what I think you have to try and keep in your mind as you're having those conversations.
(20:33):
So some of the challenge that I've had back from Trust executives and indeed, actually some individual head teachers when talking about this and the applicability of coaching to this relationship and maybe if I just talked about good conversations and good questions.
(20:55):
It might not have raised the same worries, but people were on occasion saying, oh, I can't be completely honest with my chair because they're also my line manager.
In effect.
And I think it'd be really good to try and tease that out, which I think perhaps surprises me because, like you, well, I'm still a chief executive and I'm answerable to my board, and I have had many chairs over the years because I've been a chief executive in a couple of roles for quite a long time.
(21:27):
And we have the rule that no chair can serve longer than three years.
So I don't get into that position of having someone for a decade.
And certainly my current chair, Linda, is absolutely superb at doing the sort of things that we've been talking about here.
So I find it quite hard to put myself in that position where I wouldn't be open with Lynn and tell her exactly what was on my mind.
(21:59):
But I think some leaders are a little bit hesitant to do that.
And that might have been because of previous experience that perhaps hadn't gone as well as they wanted, but it might simply be right.
They're the chair, and I have this very particular relationship with them over there.
(22:20):
And then I'm going to have different systems for support, mentoring, coaching, which we would say, and I'm sure you would too, Andy, is you still do that.
A chair doesn't replace that other system, whatever you choose to use.
(22:40):
The last thing you said that I think is absolutely right and critical, actually, because I guess whenever there is a line management or accountability, let's call it what you want relationship, of course that is going to have an influence on those conversations because to some extent, there is a power differential that will never go away.
(23:09):
It will always be there.
And that's right.
But that doesn't stop one as a chair, getting the benefits of some of those approaches in working with that, because there's probably a bit of ground in between the two.
There's always going to be some things you'd never say, but there are a lot of things that you might say if you felt like you trusted the person sufficiently to be able to share them.
(23:33):
Whereas if you saw it very much as just a transactional relationship where you're going through the motions, if you like those things in that middle ground, that in between ground probably wouldn't get said.
And I think also it's really important to recognize that we are all different and it's the combination of the chair and the CEO that will ultimately define how that relationship works.
(23:59):
And that's right, too.
The way that I work with Diana at Lead is not the template how everyone should work.
And it's taken us a year to get to that.
And you were talking about how long this can take.
I've been lucky because she's a very values led person and we've had some really good conversations.
(24:20):
But I'd like to say anyway, when Dana listens to this, you might think otherwise.
I'd like to think that we've built a really good working relationship now where we kind of understand how it works on both sides.
And part of that is, of course, is talking about that.
And one of the things you do when you formally coach someone is you do something called contracting, don't you, at the beginning where you agree the ground rules of what's confidential and what happens if I don't like it, can I get someone? All of that? How's this going to work? And I always start that by saying, what do you want? And that's another question from Michael Bungie.
(24:58):
What do you want from me as a chair? Apart from the fact I've got these three big things to do around educational outcomes, money and governance, what do you want? And then say, okay, so how there's what and how how can we make that work? In practice, then, in a way, because this relationship and these conversations, of course, as the chair, you're the guardian of the charity on behalf of the trustees, but you are also there to bring out the best in the exec.
(25:26):
Yes.
And so asking that question, I think, is really, really important.
And I think particularly if you're running a trust, you definitely I can't imagine not having a coach stroke mentor.
I mean, I have one now.
John Cole's mentors me in my role as a chair.
(25:48):
Right, that's interesting.
And there have been two or three.
We don't sort of have regular meetings, but he's there if I feel like I just want someone to talk it through that I know because John, I've worked with him before, I can completely trust his confidentiality and I can have really honest conversations with him where I feel able to say exactly what's on my mind.
(26:10):
So in the same way that I might not be able to say all of those things to someone who I'm working with.
Again, I'm not suggesting that every chair has to have a mentor, but I definitely think if you're in the CEO role, having someone who you can talk to, who's only got one agenda, which is you, whereas a chair, you've got the organization and the person, haven't you? And so that makes that much more difficult.
(26:35):
Absolutely.
And I think that point you make about support for chairs again, we overlook certainly in the system and as part of our chairs development program, we encourage people to sort of stay in contact after the program ends.
And so often that happens.
And if they've been working in triads, those often survive that period, just because, as you say, you can then have a conversation with someone who has no vested interest in any way, shape or form.
(27:08):
What would you do in this situation? And that doesn't happen nearly as often across the sector as one would hope, because by definition, head teachers and trust execs no other people working in the system.
Whereas often if you're a chair, or particularly a chair that hasn't been an executive or a teacher before, you don't have that.
(27:32):
Your network is not as part of the school.
You've just reminded me of something else actually that's happened recently.
So obviously we've just had conversations in the last term about performance of the executive.
It's happened right through the organization.
But I was involved in the conversation with the CEO and we have an external advisor that comes in and manages that process.
(27:57):
And interestingly, actually, that person is also involved in quite a lot of the, if not all of the external advice for the head teachers.
So their ability to triangulate what's being said in all of those different conversations I think is very powerful.
But I also did a 360 at the end of my first year as a chair with the exec and all of the trustees based on and it's probably a dirty word now, but I think I use the CST definition of what makes for good governance of Mats or something like that.
(28:37):
I've subsequently seen you've also got something really good on this.
But anyway, we created this survey monkey of questions and actually I then asked the external advisor and the trust agreed to fund this for them to coach me through the outcomes of that information because I just felt that would be reassuring for me that I was reading it right.
(29:02):
But they were bringing with it their external perspective of the environment in which I'm operating.
That was very useful.
Yes.
And that's exactly how our 360s we did it both for boards but also for chairs.
And that's exactly the model that we have.
Once you've done the 360 evaluation online, then you have a real live conversation with one of our consultants for exactly that reason.
(29:29):
There's always something isn't that that comes up that actually you need to talk through, that you didn't realize that other people perceived you.
But again, a person doing that will also really focus on the positives, because when we just read it ourselves, we just don't we skip all of that nice stuff and just focus on the thing that really yeah, things that jump out.
(29:56):
One of the other things I wanted to ask you about, Andy, was the difference that you've seen this make adopting a sort of coaching approach to questioning in governance.
So I was going to say impact, which is why I hesitated.
But impact makes it sound as though I'm wanting a measure, which I'm not.
(30:20):
I'm just thinking of some of the criticisms that sometimes people might throw or questions maybe people might ask about.
Is this all really rather lovely, but actually a bit wooly? Where does it actually get us? What difference does it make? Or equally, I've heard people say, but once you get to that sort of level, you should be able to do your reflection yourself.
(30:48):
You don't necessarily need someone to take you through that conversation.
I think what you described there is quite common, and I also think it's quite understandable, actually, in lots of ways.
And it's interesting as well.
I mean, I was ahead of a school, ahead of two schools, but for 13 years altogether.
(31:12):
But it wasn't until my 10th year that I really kind of suddenly, very late in the day, saw the benefit of using a coaching approach.
I was ten years ahead before I had a coach.
And what was really interesting about it, if I think about if my chair of governors had adopted a coaching approach with me, which he didn't particularly, what happens is that if the person asks questions in the right way, and doesn't jump too quickly to give advice.
(31:50):
And if they've got that demeanor I mean, another one of the basic qualities is keeping curious if their whole demeanor is I'm interested in or I'm just wondering or could you? Say a bit more about what happens is that you relax.
You stop being in a kind of defensive mode where you're fight or freeze.
(32:15):
You're way past that.
So much so that people can ask you questions that your brain really engages with and really thinks that really challenge you without you getting defensive.
Because you can ask really difficult questions.
But if the person just bats them.
Back and tries to obfuscate the issue with lots of data, for example, I've seen that and you're left thinking because you might not be an expert in the thing that they're talking about and you think, well, that sounds very impressive, but you haven't got a clue.
(32:49):
Rather than the person saying, do you know what, actually that's really interesting, I haven't thought of it like that.
Now, that only comes from you building that trust and building that relationship with a person where you can ask those questions or hold the mirror up for a person and say you seem quite down at the moment.
(33:12):
Now, once you've done that, once you've got to that stage, you're able to ask much more challenging questions than you would be if you just had a transactional relationship.
So I think that there's superficial challenge and then there is real challenge to thinking that taking a kind of coaching approach, which doesn't mean you're coaching as such, it's using these, you know, ask first framework, listen hard, play back, build trust, keep curious, show empathy and stay positive.
(33:48):
Those key eight tenets of of the method that I write about, if you just do those things, the difference, the transformation.
So yeah, it's not warm and fluffy at all.
If anything, it's the opposite because once that relationship builds, you can have much more honest conversations.
Never be 100% honest, let's be honest, it's not like a purely confidential coaching relationship because as we said before about the power relationship, but it will be a lot more powerful as a result of some of those.
(34:19):
And you know what, as you said before, this isn't more work, this is just nuancing the way you do what you already do.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's really helpful.
And it also isn't it about making the time to have the conversations.
But we're not talking about hours on end, are we? But this is perhaps slightly one of the things I think that we Nga are slightly concerned about, given that context that I mentioned before.
(34:53):
The funding, the resources, the needing to balance the budget that we've been encouraging schools and trusts for years and years to actually make the time for CPD more generally, but also for middle managers as well as senior managers.
To actually have time to do this sort of thing and to manage to manage well and not try and do it around the edges of a day packed with lessons.
(35:24):
And I think governing boards are absolutely with us on that.
We do not cover across trustees and governors who do not want to invest in staff development.
I think everybody gets the fact that if you want better education for pupils, you need to invest in developing your staff.
But it's a more difficult case to make when resources are so short.
(35:48):
And that's not just in terms of money, it's also at the moment in terms of people as well, isn't it? So I was just thinking maybe we should round off our conversation by sort of making that case for investment in people.
Have you got any sort of words of advice or wisdom on that front? Because that's really your business, isn't it? Leadership development.
(36:12):
Yeah, there's a couple of thoughts that were going through my mind as you were talking there, Emma, and then places I can point people if it's helpful.
So there are some like Nga, there are lots of organizations out there that can help courses or programs have their place for people, ideally before they take the step to take on the role.
(36:41):
Like in the police, you do your sergeant's course, you get your sergeant's ticket or badge or whatever it is, and then you're eligible to become a sergeant.
Sometimes we're backfilling a bit too much in education, I think.
I'm a middle leader now, I better have some middle leader training.
But in the context of current scenarios, the system has got millions of pounds of apprenticeship levy sitting in it.
(37:08):
And there are organizations like, for example, the National College for Education that will run level three, level four, level five, level seven, even MBAs where people can spend their apprenticeship levy.
In fact, Diana just just did hers got a distinction in in the MBA with National College of Education.
But there are lots of people that offer that.
(37:31):
So I think courses and programs have a place and by the way, if you can find apprenticeships that will enable you to get some of that money back into your school budget, that helps a lot on the finances because then it's just a question of the person giving up the time to do it.
But the thing that I suppose is really only dawned on me latterly since I was ahead, actually subsequent to being ahead is really the power of the expertise that already exists within the schools and the power of how those conversations happen.
(38:04):
And so one of the things I was saying earlier, Lockdown, when I wrote the book and people started reading it and then they said, oh, we want to train people in this.
And so I went and did some online training with some of the schools and then I couldn't keep up with the schools that wanted it and I was doing the same thing over and over again.
I thought this is a waste of my time and could be much more flexible for people.
(38:29):
So I recorded little videos and created a little qualification.
So you then get people being trained in this, because I know schools where all the leaders in the schools have been trained in how to have these sorts of conversations, so that when they're doing a lesson observation, they can then use this approach to ask first, give the teacher the ownership of the thing, but go into giving advice mode if needed.
(38:57):
So that you start by asking first and only offer advice or take on something or model it as a conscious decision.
As we were saying earlier.
And then, of course, the mat said, well, can't we run the training? So there's now a train the trainer kind of I suppose it's a franchise of it, I suppose, where we've got about 50 mats who are running their own training and awarding their own certificates of competence in doing this.
(39:22):
Now, the cost of that relative to the number of people that are going to benefit from it and whether it's basic coaching or some other you know, there are lots of lots of other approaches out there.
I sound like I'm on the BBC now, but I think the key point I'm making here is there is a lot of knowledge, experience, talent and care and and relationships within organizations.
(39:46):
And therefore the biggest challenge is how do you protect the time to allow for those conversations to happen? And that's where I think the leadership has to make some bold decisions.
So I can remember going back to the 1990s where as a school, I was working in a school in North London, it was brilliant.
On our what we then call baker days.
(40:08):
We pretty much most of those five days a year.
Got time in our teams, got time in departments and a bit of time in year teams, but mainly time in departments so we could just do so much stuff together and have these conversations and create that sense of team because that time was protected.
(40:30):
And if you do start to get more radical, as I think we need to as a sector that we change the social perceptions around marking which there's so much evidence now to say that if you were doing a cost benefit analysis of the time and energy that goes into marking from teachers and the benefit it brings relative to saying actually, what we should be doing is looking at duplicate response to what's going on in a lesson.
(40:56):
Drawing out from that, what are the bits that I need to change the next time I teach this? And what are the things I need to tell the whole class the next time we meet that they need to bear in mind, goodness me, that would save so much time that could be used then for these sorts of conversations.
And it was interesting, wasn't it, that a few years ago, pre Pandemic, we were talking about that and much more, weren't we? The whole workload project.
(41:20):
And that was one of the sort of three big things, along with along with data as well.
And I think so much else has been happening.
Those conversations have been pushed to the periphery, so we're trying to get trust to bring them back centrally.
And actually, it was interesting you mentioned the apprenticeship, Levy, because Steve Edmonds, my director of advice and guidance, in a podcast earlier with Mandy Coulter, who, of course, you'll know, is talent architects, but also the national College as well, talking about how to sort of embed a philosophy.
(41:59):
Not just philosophy, a practice of people development right through your organization.
So we sort of reinforcing that today.
But before we wrap up, Andy, is there anything else you want to say in conclusion about encouraging and not just chairs it's actually other trustees and governors as well.
(42:24):
To really think hard or reflect being one of the big words of this podcast on how they question and what a difference that yeah, I think if I was to say anything, it would be the four key habits, really, that people might want to go from this and think, right, I'm really going to try and work on those.
(42:47):
Or maybe just pick two of them.
But asking first framing questions well, because why can feel like you've got to defend a position, whereas how or what or what or how usually in that order, really listening.
And then the other thing that I think is is playing back.
Sounds like what you're saying is for people listening to this, just try some of those things.
(43:12):
Or, you know, if you want to read more about it, you could buy the book.
But the whole point of this is just the whole reason I wrote it is because I've just become so passionate, because I've seen it from my own experience on both sides of the coin, the difference it can make.
And it's all about a kind of mindset, really.
Yes.
A different approach to those conversations or just a slightly it may well be that the people are doing some of this, but not maybe so consciously, and it's about thinking about how you have those conversations.
(43:44):
No, it is absolutely that.
And I think actually that's quite reassuring for people as well, because being a chair of a school or a trust is sometimes quite a daunting thing.
And you worry about, am I doing it well enough? Well, actually, to read some stuff that actually makes you think, oh, okay, I'm not doing so bad after all, I think is good.
(44:04):
We should celebrate a lot more in our sector than we do.
We definitely should.
That's a great place to leave it and celebrate, hopefully, relationship strengthening between heads, executives and their governing boards.
So thank you so much, Andy, for this conversation, but also, more importantly, all the work that you're doing to extend good leadership practice across our sector.
(44:34):
It's been an absolute pleasure.
And this will probably date the podcast now, but have a lovely Christmas.
Exactly.
A happy 2023 to you too.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Bye.
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