In this deeply moving episode of The Mommy Mentor podcast, join me, Erinn, as I engage in a heartfelt conversation with Meredith Goodwin, a compassionate Family Palliative Nurse Practitioner. Together, we explore the profound and often unspoken topic of pregnancy loss, shedding light on our personal experiences and offering invaluable insights for those who have endured similar challenges.
Drawing from our unique perspectives as medical professionals, Meredith and I delve into the complexities of coping with pregnancy loss. We candidly discuss the ways in which our professional backgrounds helped (or didn't) in navigating our own grief. Through our shared vulnerability, we provide a safe space for listeners to reflect on their own experiences and find solace in knowing they are not alone.
As the conversation unfolds, Meredith offers practical advice on how to support one another as partners during the difficult journey of pregnancy loss. She explores the importance of open communication, empathy, and understanding, providing listeners with valuable tools to navigate this shared grief together.
Additionally, Meredith expertly addresses the often overlooked aspect of supporting children through the grief of pregnancy loss. With her professional expertise and personal anecdotes, she offers guidance on how to create a nurturing environment for children to express their emotions and find healing amidst the pain.
Tune in to this thought-provoking episode of The Mommy Mentor podcast, where Meredith Goodwin and I compassionately explore the complexities of pregnancy loss, providing listeners with a wealth of knowledge, support, and hope for the journey towards healing.
For information on this podcast and more, visit mommymentorpodcast.com. My name is Erinn Kennedy-Heldt & I am a registered nurse and a Mom of three. I have professional experience with moms & babies as a post-partum nurse, which keeps the newborn & post partum transition fresh in my mind. And I have my personal experience of 17 years of parenting.
Meredith's Links:
https://openwindowstories.buzzsprout.com
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/open-window-stories-big-stories-for-little-people/id1702251062
https://www.instagram.com/openwindowstories/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D
Happy Pizza link:
https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bernard009/episodes/The-Happy-Pizza-8yrs-e2b1dtb
Resources for families of children experiencing grief:
National Alliance for Children’s Grief: tool kits, things to remember when talking to children about death/ dying, support map
https://nacg.org/ Eluna Network: camps, youtube videos, care packages you can order https://elunanetwork.org/resources?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhL6pBhDjARIsAGx8D58T2OXH5J6wsVH9FBC3zZCjOCMPyMrG0_SrhWPpKsZg04Osia428uEaArAsEALw_wcB
Dougy Center: activity kits for families organized by age
https://www.dougy.org/grief-support-resources/kids
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor:
Welcome to the Mommy Mentor Podcast. (00:05):
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This parenting bullsheetis hard, am I right?
From sleepless nights with newbornsto sleepless nights with teens,
from potty training to sending themoff to college, I'm here to get you
through it all as your Mommy Mentor.
My name is Erinn Kennedy- Heldt and I'ma registered nurse and a mom of three.
(00:25):
I have professional experience withmoms and babies as a postpartum
nurse, which keeps the postpartum andnewborn experience fresh in my mind.
And I have 17 years ofparenting experience as well.
For information on this podcastand more, go to mommymentorpodcast.
com.
Parents, grab a cup of whatever youprefer and settle in for the next
(00:47):
episode.
Hello, everyone.
I have a special guest this episode.
She is very smart.
She is a hospice and palliativecertified family nurse practitioner.
And if you don't know what that is,don't worry, I'm going to ask her.
(01:07):
I was inspired already to do anepisode on pregnancy loss and
she then messaged me and I said,let's do this episode together.
It is Meredith Goodwin.
I just wanted to ask you, whatis your role as a palliative
family nurse practitioner?
What do you do?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So, as a hospice and palliative nurse (01:25):
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practitioner, I was on a hospice team.
I would go into patient homesand help manage symptoms that
come with the dying process.
So, with hospice and palliative, this iswhen Patient has to qualify for hospice,
two doctors have to agree that theywould not be surprised if the patient
(01:47):
would pass away within six months.
And then if it's okay with the family,they can do hospice in which we would,
do no, aggressive interventions, right?
So.
They can still go to the hospitalif they want to, but then
they'd come off of hospice care.
If they decide to stay with us,then we just manage symptoms.
We don't do anythingaggressively life saving.
(02:07):
Um, and my role as the provider wasprimarily to manage pain, to manage
breathing symptoms, to help thefamily recognize when a patient was
moving into the next stage of thisprocess and to help prepare them and
talk them through grief and connectthem with resources and all of that.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Gotcha. (02:27):
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Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So, I did that both virtually (02:27):
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and in patients homes.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I see. (02:30):
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I was a postpartum nurse.
I still do that part time andI am now a care coordinator.
So at a hospital andit's an oncology unit.
So, um, I, I send people home with homecare, but my coworker, the social worker,
she does a lot of hospice placement.
So I have dabbled in a littlebit of hospice placement.
So I kind of know a lot about therules that you just talked about,
(02:53):
which It seems crazy to have to talkabout rules with hospice and end of
life care, but that is our system.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yep. (03:00):
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That's how it goes, unfortunately.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (03:04):
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Yes.
But, um, primarily I, I would like tofocus on what kinds of things would you do
for the family, like emotionally supportand what resources would you give them?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So the resources side of things, I (03:15):
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always like to go very factual, verywhat to expect anticipatory guidance.
Having been a family member of somebodyon hospice myself, especially as a child.
I lost my father when he was 14 to cancer.
And, um, when nobody is telling you.
(03:35):
What to expect and nobody is walkingyou through what is going to come next.
It gets very anxiety provoking.
It's very scary and noteverybody wants to know.
Right.
But the first thing that I alwaysask family is like, do you want
to talk about what's coming next?
Let's talk about what we seeright here and what this means.
And do you want to know what.
(03:56):
What comes next and howwe prepare for that.
Gone From My Sight is a hospice bookthat's written by a hospice nurse who
has 50 years, any, any nurse anywhereknows about Gone From My Sight.
It's in school.
It's a, you know, we talk about itall the time, but it's very simple.
It's very, uh, basic reading level.
It's easy to understand and it, itdoes a very good job generalizing
the four stages of the dying process.
(04:18):
Recommend that to everybody.
The other things that I would, resourcesthat I would give to families, a
lot of times like the ELNEC websiteis good at, at individualizing
symptoms and symptom management.
Um, in my organization, we have symptommanagement cards, which say individually.
pain, shortness of breath, anxiety,constipation, all the things that
(04:41):
we really focus on in hospice andwhat tools you have as a family or
caregiver to manage those things.
It's really helpful to a family.
As far as the grieving processgoes for families, um, really
depends on what stage of life.
The patient or their family are in, right?
If you have a grandmother who's theprimary caregiver of grandkids, that's
(05:03):
a whole different deal than somebodywith adult children who we were
expecting this grandma's had dementiafor, you know, five years and so.
That gets really individualized by family.
Uh, we do a lot of connectingpeople to groups of support groups.
We do a lot of connecting people tovolunteer caregivers just to offload
(05:24):
caregiver burden and caregiver stress.
We have a bereavement coordinatorwho It was a PhD in divinity she's,
like the coolest person I know.
And she, she does a reallygood job with the kids.
You know, she brings books and she'llsit down and she'll talk to them.
And also understanding wherea family is coming from.
You know, we have some families whoreally avoid it and we don't want to
talk about death and they don't haveany processing, no coping mechanisms.
(05:47):
And so addressing that with thosefamilies is a lot harder than
families who have like an established,this is how I think about this.
This is how I feel about this.
This is how I talk to my kids about this.
If they don't have those structures inplace, it can feel very catastrophic.
This is only happening to me.
This is, this is only somethingthat's affecting my family.
And that's, that's a lot harderbecause I can't force you to pick
(06:08):
a way to think about that, right?
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah, for sure. (06:10):
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Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (06:12):
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Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: For sure. (06:12):
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You spoke about so many thingsthat are familiar to me.
I'm glad for all the information.
Yes.
It's all good.
And I am sorry about yourloss of your father at 14.
I was a little older, 23,but very sudden death.
And also I had just had mytwins who were born prematurely.
So it was ridiculous timing andprobably not so good for me emotionally.
(06:35):
Probably not.
Yeah.
It's it.
Grief is definitely tricky and youhave to like factor in, like you said,
what stage of life are these people in?
Do they have young children?
Are they primary caregivers?
Are they not primary caregivers?
Uh, what resources do they have and theirfamilies have and what is, you know, like
we also have cultural things to consider.
(06:56):
That's beside just how are you doingemotionally and how are you grieving
and, and do you want to talk about this?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, but I think for myself,I would prefer knowledge.
So I think it's great to give thoseoptions because I think knowledge is
just like huge and you can kind ofrecognize it and then walk yourself
through the grieving process step by step,really, just because you can recognize
(07:19):
what's happening in front of you.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah, I agree. (07:22):
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I feel that most families really prefer tohave at least some sort of, even if they
don't want to talk about it right now,like, you know, I want to leave it, but
let me leave this resource so I can seewhat's coming when I'm, when I'm ready.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (07:35):
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Yep.
A lot.
Sometimes you're just leavingit and letting them come
to it when they're ready.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (07:40):
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Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Definitely. (07:41):
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Do you have any experience work wisein helping patients and families
through pregnancy loss and grieving?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Only my own. (07:50):
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Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Only your own. (07:51):
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Okay.
Yeah.
Same here.
I have not worked in that arena.
Yeah.
Same here.
I've, um, I, because I,I'm a postpartum nurse and.
To be, to be honest, they, whena person needed to have like a
D&C or something at my hospital,they never came to the postpartum
unit because there's babies there.
You do not, you don't put people who hadmiscarriages on the postpartum floor.
(08:13):
So I never had experience in caringfor people in miscarriage either.
However, I've had my.
My own, and I know a lot ofpeople who have had them.
They're very common.
Um, unfortunately one in fivepeople and they can just happen
for a lot of different reasons.
And just personally,for me, it was sudden.
It was weird.
(08:33):
I had had the girls I had had, theywere twins, but they were preemies.
So because of the twins,not any other reason.
And then we wanted to have another childand I got pregnant and it was fine.
And then.
Boom, miscarriage.
And it was about eight weeks.
And then we tried again a yearlater and it was, I was 20 weeks
and the baby actually passedlike two weeks before that.
(08:57):
So it was 18 weeks when it died.
And then I had a D&C with that one.
And after that, my OB was like,okay, like what's going on and did
a whole bunch of labs and things.
Turns out I have factor five Leiden.
I need to be on bloodthinners when I'm pregnant.
Yeah.
So who knew?
I didn't know.
(09:18):
And also I was on estrogen basedbirth control for seven years.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Our stories are very similar. (09:22):
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Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: That's so scary. (09:23):
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Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So scary. (09:26):
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Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: A lot of women find this out this (09:26):
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way, unfortunately, they find outthings about their health this way.
And so then my third one was becausewe started the Lovenox too early.
And then I got my son and now he'swonderful and 12 and he, I swear, wasn't
going to come out even at 39 weeks.
So, yeah, he took his sweet time and soit all worked out and I'm glad to know
(09:50):
that I have the clotting disorder becauseI've also passed it on to my daughters,
but to find out that way is not fun.
Definitely, like I said.
I've shared my experience withmiscarriages and I know you can share
as much as you want or as little as youwant, but as both of us who are healthcare
professionals and we have experiencedpregnancy loss ourselves, how did you
(10:15):
find your, your job helping you cope?
You know, the fact with the job thatyou do, how did that help you cope?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: First of all, I want to say (10:21):
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as a healthcare system, I think that wehave come a long way in caring for women
who have, who are undergoing pregnancyloss, but I also feel like we have.
Really long way to go.
Um, I feel like, you know, backin the day it was like this is
happening and then a tush hush andeverybody treats you like a tush hush
and nobody wants to talk about it.
(10:42):
And that is very isolating and veryscary and feels, you know, stigmatizing.
And there, you know, we've come along way in researching the causes of
miscarriages and and pregnancy loss, butI also think that the way that the the
way we train nurses and doctors to talkto women who are going through this loss
(11:03):
Uh, it leaves a lot to be desired still.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I agree. (11:05):
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Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: The only help that I got from go (11:06):
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undergoing this process is from thebereavement coordinator at my work It
was you know, not from And they haveresources at these, at these centers,
but the most that they do is like, Oh,here's a social worker if you want to.
And, and, and maybe it's just myexperience, but negative experiences,
um, with the kind of like post groupsupport groups when I lost my dad.
(11:31):
And obviously I was a teenager and I wasvery young, that was a long time ago and
so it was different, but I just very muchdid not want to talk to a group of women
who had been undergoing the same thing.
And I didn't want to sit with anybody whowas going to be cheery and like talk to me
like I was a child that really bothers me.
I'm sure it bothers everybody,but the vibe that I was up with.
(11:54):
And I think that treating women whoare undergoing a loss like this as if
they're having a loss is really important.
Acknowledging that there's grief thatcomes with this, um, when you address a
woman who's having a miscarriage and say,Oh, well, this happens to a lot of women.
Like, I'm sorry, peopleexperience loss every day.
That doesn't make it lessimpactful of what I'm, yeah,
(12:17):
painful of what I'm going through.
Uh, and so.
I would say that the number one thingthat my job helped me with is having
a very established foundation of likehow I think about death and dying and
what I think about life and what doesthat mean, especially coming, um, and
I might get myself in trouble here, butcoming from a very religious background
(12:37):
that shames a lot of pregnancy laws.
And, and being able to say like, Oh, Hey,like, this is not something that I did,
you know, and coming to terms with, withmy beliefs and feelings about what is a
life and what isn't, and how does thismake me feel about needing to have a D&C,
needing to take an abortion pill, becauseI did twice, have to, should be an , um,
(13:00):
fetal tissue, uh, and, and that was all.
A framework that I had establishedbecause of dealing with grief in my
job, not something that the peoplewho were responsible for caring for
me were in any way equipped to walkme through in any of those times.
So it was more my job...
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: ...that helped you cope with (13:20):
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this than the care team.
And I mean, I would.
I would likely agree.
I didn't have horrible experiences,but at the same time, I don't
know how old you were, but I thinkmy age had a lot to do with it.
I was in my early 20s, and I was just,I don't know, something about that
age group is just like, no, I gotthis, you know, because you're just
trying to be an adult, I think, andyou're just, Like overly aggressive
(13:42):
about how you can handle things.
Maybe that's it.
I don't know.
But for me, I was justlike, no, thank you.
I have it under control.
And do you want to have a, youknow, do you want the, do you
want to have a burial, do youwant to have the information?
No, no, no.
Thank you.
And I was just like,denial, denial, denial.
And that is absolutely not the way to goabout it because like, you know, however
many years later, that's still, that'sgoing to come and bite you in the butt.
(14:05):
But.
The people who were providingthe care weren't finding
out, like, what is her why?
Why is she like this?
You know, like, they justlet me keep my door shut.
Let me just, you know, leave it alone.
Leave me alone, kind of a thing.
And My doctor made a mistake, like Ididn't want, who wants to know what
(14:28):
a baby that they, I mean, I don'tknow, maybe people do if they're older
babies, mine were young, young, youknow, like not viable at all, you know?
And so I was, I guess I thought thatthere were people, but I didn't want
to know what this baby was, especiallythe oldest one that I had miscarried.
And they sent everything to the lab to,you know, because as they do to check and
(14:50):
make sure everything's fine genetically.
And My OB, who I love by the way, andshe's still my OB to this day, she's
been my OB for 17 years, but she isjust like not, and I get it because in
healthcare, we, this is our job, youknow, like sometimes we can get so like
lackadaisical about it and just like,it's something that we do every day.
(15:12):
We see every day we talk,we like are exposed.
And so it's almost desensitizing ina way, which is unfortunate because
that is not the way it should be.
And I try really hard whenI'm caring for women, not.
Like I said, not with loss, but obviouslypostpartum women are emotional, um,
to try to like put myself in theirshoes as much as humanly possible.
(15:33):
But my OB made the mistake oftelling me in a voicemail that I
had miscarried a healthy baby boy.
And I'm like, well great, that's wonderfulthat he was healthy, unfortunately...
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: ...until he died. (15:46):
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Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Until he died. (15:47):
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Thank you.
Right.
Right.
So, and I mean, I'm just like "ugh".
You know, that was like a gut punch.
A person doesn't need.
So it's like, I would agree withyou, the healthcare system and
it is getting better, um, but thehealthcare system is, does not address
pregnancy loss as it should at all.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: No, no, no. (16:06):
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Yeah.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I mean, the emotional aspect and (16:09):
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also like, we're not even talkingabout the dads or the partners.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Uh, and there's nothing, there's (16:14):
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nothing, there's nothing that was, Imean, my husband's a surgeon who's in
the healthcare field, just like I am.
Um, And.
I mean, there wasn'teven any offer to know
for him to talk about.
So then I felt, and this is nothis fault, it's very, very clear.
Like you did not make me responsiblefor his grieving process.
(16:36):
But I felt like I had to manage not just,I mean, because my, so we didn't get
into my story and we can talk about it.
Um, but.
I had five miscarriages in a row.
And the last one was the one thatwe finally thought like, this is it.
It made it past 12 weeks.
Things are doing fine.
And just like you said, like with yours,mine wasn't quite as far along, but it was
(16:59):
15 weeks and he'd been dead for two weeks.
And, um, so I already knewwe had done genetic testings.
We'd had so many before this, wewere like really worried about it.
No one would.
Give me anything to try it out.
They didn't want me to do progesterone.
They didn't want me to do Levinox.
They don't want me to doanything because we didn't have
any evidence for any of this.
I understand, but you'relike, there's five.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (17:21):
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Like, why aren't we intervening?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes. (17:24):
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Yes.
So, um, and on this fifth one, it was justpeople knew like the, I had, I had one.
One at eight weeks, one at six weeks andthree that were, um, so I've actually
had six miscarriages, but five wereafter my, my live birth daughter.
(17:45):
And then the one before, like, itwas at five weeks since it didn't
really register to me, you know?
Yeah.
And I had my daughter and then I hadone at six weeks that was healthy,
one at, sorry, one at eight weeksthat was healthy, one at six weeks
that had a trisomy after we did IUI,they did all the, that one was non
viable and we found out really early.
(18:05):
Um, and then two more chemicalpregnancies that were like, you know,
five weeks tops, um, just positivepregnancy test and then no more.
And then the 15 week one.
And, um, that one we got past 12 weeks.
So we had told everybody, we had toldthe parents and we had told the people at
(18:26):
work and I, cause we were in the processof moving from Michigan to Illinois and
they had the most finishing fellowship.
And there were just so many people thatwere aware of what I was going through
and so many people to be so helpful, buta lot of times you end up feeling like
you have to manage their grief as well.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (18:46):
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It's okay.
I'm okay.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes. (18:48):
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Like you don't need to worry about me.
Let's talk about you.
Which is just not
the same.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I'm so sorry. (18:53):
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Sorry.
And then you're immediately taking it onlike, Oh no, you're everything's fine.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Or they jump into their story about (18:57):
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loss, which is again, wonderful.
Sharing is great.
We want to be open, but whensomebody is in the immediate throes
of loss, talking about your lossis just really, really not helpful.
Like even if you've had a good outcomeafter, even if you've been through
it, you know, because again, It's likeif you lost a family member, no, I
(19:18):
didn't know this baby for very long.
No, I didn't.
But I, hearing about the death of yourdad does not help me process the death
of mine when I am struggling, right?
So, um, there was a lot of that.
And then circling back to my husbandagain, there's no resources for him.
He's obviously struggling.
He was very excited about this baby.
(19:38):
It was a baby boy.
It's very happy.
It's very excited about that.
Um, and then You know, we'reboth up all night crying.
We're both, you know, trying to goto work and trying to pull the pieces
together and trying to parent our threeyear old at the time and explain to
her what was going on and, you know,why mommy and daddy are sad and why
(19:59):
grandma's here and why grandma's sad.
You know, she, that was another thing.
She had known that I was pregnant.
And so we had to set her down andtell her and, and then process her
grief through that whole thing,which obviously it's very tricky.
It's just three.
There's a lot of grieving processesthat happen when you're three that
don't happen when you're an adult.
Right.
Um, And so when, when you just leave womenwho've had a loss with, with no resources
(20:25):
for their partners, no ways to telltheir kids, again, I was very fortunate.
I worked with grief.
I worked with stuff.
I have resources to talk to my kidabout this, say, recognize stress
responses from what they are.
But even so, it was a very stressfultime in my marriage and we had
jumped right into doing IVF after,and, you know, walking through that.
And I, I mean, I.
(20:45):
I remember very vividly my husbandbeing like, I'm doing this with you.
And I was like, then why do Ifeel like I'm doing it alone?
And it was a horrible thing to saythings like that to your husband.
But it was just, it was very, very roughknowing that I am the support system here.
I am trying to hold allthese things together.
Um, but yet this happened to me, right?
(21:07):
Like, yes, it happened to everybodyelse, but it happened inside my body.
And it happened.
I am the one with the hormonesand the weight and everything.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (21:15):
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Yep.
And I'm the one who's wantedchildren since God knows how long.
And it's in my body.
Like, you don't understandthe connection is different.
Yes.
Yep.
I, I understand.
My husband, like I said, Icoped by denial, so I denied
all of his feelings too.
We like everyday life just went on.
We had twins to be fair,so they keep life busy.
(21:39):
You have to, um, but they were only 18months at when my first miscarriage,
there's no, they didn't even knowI was pregnant and there was no
explaining that to a one year oldexactly, even if they knew, but.
They didn't know and they never knew.
Um, when I had a miscarriagewith the last one, I don't know.
(21:59):
I am unsure how they didn't know Iwas pregnant because I was like 18
weeks.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right, right. (22:04):
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You like, look pregnant.
At that point.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I looked pregnant at that point. (22:06):
undefined
Yeah.
But it was winter, so I waslucky enough to wear like large
sweatshirts and stuff and you know,maybe mommy just was getting fat.
Who knows?
But they never didn't notice anything.
And that was my biggest fear with my son.
My, you know, my rainbow baby was that.
They are four now.
They're four and a half.
They're gonna be five when he's born.
(22:27):
I can't, I can't even fathomexplaining this to them.
And that was like a huge fear for me.
And honestly, it was a top fear.
It was, it was, it was abovemy own grief, to be honest.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (22:40):
undefined
Because it's
worse to explain, to watchyour child grieve something
than it is to feel it yourself.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (22:47):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (22:47):
undefined
Any, and it's important regardless ofthe grief that you're talking about.
You want to explain things tochildren and concrete details.
You don't want to use euphemisms.
You don't want to lie because Evenif you're trying to protect their
feelings, children are very smart.
They know things, bad things happen.
And unfortunately, especially if you'rein the under four age group, they tend
(23:09):
to think if something bad happens, if ithasn't been explained to them, they tend
to think it's their fault for some reason.
It's just a thing that, so wewanted to be very, very factual,
um, with my daughter, very concrete.
And what we said was that, youknow, I know she had to pick up
some daycare from my friends.
We were in the hospital all night.
(23:29):
Just, you
know, rough for everybody.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah, life was different (23:31):
undefined
and we had to explain why.
Yes.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (23:34):
undefined
So I sat her down in the morning.
I said, I know, you know that mommy wasin the hospital last night and that's
because they went to the doctor to checkon the baby and there was no heartbeat.
Um, and he, so his heart stopped workingand he had stopped growing and he died
and the doctors had to take him out.
And that's something that like,you know, it's still a lot to
(23:56):
process for a three year old.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: It's still so much, yes. (23:57):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right, um, and the first thing she did (23:58):
undefined
was react, you know, the first thingshe did was like hit me and cry because
she was three and she's angry and shedoesn't know why she feels that way.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Of course. (24:06):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And so we had to talk about (24:07):
undefined
like, I know that makes you sad.
Mommy's sad too.
Mommy's angry too.
Well, you can be angry at mommy.
That's okay.
And, you know, then realizing that onceshe processes through all these emotions.
It's going to come up later.
Oh, yeah.
So you hear about it when she, you know,we're crying and everybody's upset and she
(24:27):
goes into like a little bit of regression.
There's more tantrums and she's nottelling you why she won't tell you why you
just have to give her a little bit moregrace than you would, uh, if she were just
acting out because she's a three, right?
Like there was a time I broughtthis up in another conversation.
Like this, but my mom was therehelping us out and she had some
(24:48):
popcorn and Reagan was my daughter.
Reagan wanted some because she wouldjust try to take it from my mom.
And my mom said that Idon't, we don't like that.
We don't do that with grandma.
And then Reagan got upset and shewas like, two days after, right.
We'd been in the hospital and mymom went into the whole thing.
Like, we don't talk to grandma like that.
That makes grandma really sad.
(25:09):
And I like.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: You're like, hold on a minute. (25:11):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Like this is not what's happening, like I (25:12):
undefined
picked her up and she's just like bawling.
I was like, this isn'tabout popcorn, right?
Like this isn't about, and she'ssad and we have to talk about this.
I understand that you're sad.
I know that you reallywanted to be a big sister.
You really wanted a babybrother and mommy's sad too.
And you know.
We can get some popcorn.
It's okay.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah, definitely. (25:32):
undefined
We'll get you some popcorn.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And so, you know, obviously that (25:34):
undefined
conversation changes as you get older,but you know, even so further down, my
daughter's four just, just turned fourin November and I'm pregnant again.
I'm 26 weeks.
Thank you.
Um, you know, I'm a pretty good.
(25:55):
I'm on Lovenox as well.
I don't have factor five.
So they just,
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I'm just so (26:00):
undefined
excited.
My girls were born.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (26:02):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: My girls were born at 28 weeks (26:03):
undefined
and I'm like, girl, you're fine.
You're fine.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And he's been kicking me this whole time. (26:07):
undefined
He's like, mom, you're talking about me.
Um, but yeah, so.
There was a time I got prettysick a couple weeks ago, right?
It's just like my body hurts andI just had to lay down for like
three days in a row and My daughterwas getting all anxious and weird.
(26:30):
What what's wrong, honey?
Like what's going on?
She was like, but is the baby sick too?
Like is his heart stop beating?
It's like no No, he's okay We wentto the doctor and he's okay and so
Addressing that those tears come uplater, you know, and reassuring us,
not just you that's anxious about baby.
(26:52):
It's, you know,
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Oh my gosh, everyone's... (26:52):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: ...everyone's anxious. (26:54):
undefined
Yes,
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: yes, definitely. (26:56):
undefined
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
I, that was one of my questionsis you answered it already.
It was like, how are you parenting herthrough grief and are there books and
resources or websites for children, likehelping your children process grief?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: There are so many. (27:15):
undefined
Um, and that's so part of thereason when I get into podcasting
is I write children's stories.
That's on my podcast.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: That's what I forgot to (27:23):
undefined
tell the people that.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: It's okay, (27:26):
undefined
I'll have a link later.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: She illustrates people, (27:27):
undefined
children's stories.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Children's (27:30):
undefined
stories.
Um, and I read them on my podcastand, um, I have some that are, you
know, I hope to have a YouTube channelwith the fully illustrated versions.
Not all of them are like, let's talk abouta hard subject, but some of them address,
I got a chance to guest star on a.
bedtime stories for children's podcast.
And they read my story, happypizza, which is about what I just
(27:50):
talk about my loss in that story.
And you know, from a child's perspective.
And so there's, yeah, it's in, I'vehad multiple women who I know who've
also been through loss with children.
And they're like, I love that story.
We talk about having pizza all the time.
And so that one's not on mywebsite yet, but I'll give you a
link.
I'll email it to you.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Perfect. (28:10):
undefined
I will put it in the show notes.
It'll be in the show notes.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So, as far as we're talking about (28:14):
undefined
literature, which is just, I think,so important if we help kids, if
you can find yourself in literature,you can find a way to walk through
whatever problem that you have.
Right.
I think that's a hugecoping mechanism of mine.
So if you just like Googlekids, books, grief, there are.
age appropriate books from 0 to18 that walk you through grief.
(28:36):
And I went through and tried to makea list and there's just so many.
So just Google it.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Totally. (28:40):
undefined
Yeah.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: But I also have a list of (28:42):
undefined
resources specifically for kidswho are experiencing grief.
There's several different websites.
One of them is like, you canorder a care package for the kids
that are going through grief.
One of them has talking points.
One of them has supportgroups in your area.
One has a, you know, network.
So I'll send you all of those.
You can include them.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes, (28:59):
undefined
I will put them in the show notes.
I sure will.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Um, and then the other thing I'll say (29:02):
undefined
is that we have, I guess your kidsare older, but we, people who have
kids my age, um, have been blessedto be parenting in the age of Bluey.
And Bluey is so amazing.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I actually hear about Bluey. (29:17):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes, about grief. (29:19):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Bluey is very progressive. (29:20):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So Progressive, Progressive (29:22):
undefined
for Parents, Progressive forKids, Progressive for grief.
Bluey is amazing.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes, (29:28):
undefined
I've heard this.
I think, isn't therea miscarriage episode?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes, there is. (29:32):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes, I heard about that. (29:32):
undefined
I'm like, genius, this is amazing.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: It's just such a great (29:37):
undefined
resource for parents.
So, finding books, finding stories.
And I think, also, I, you talkedabout how you were so avoidant
and you're coping when you're 23.
Um, I don't think that's age dependent,but it is also very, because I avoid it.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: And it could easily just be (29:53):
undefined
the way I cope with things.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (29:56):
undefined
I'm 36.
I coped the same way when I was 14 and 36.
So like I, it was, yeah, but it is avery teenage way to, to cope with grief
is to shut down and be like, I don'twant to talk to anybody about anything.
You just leave me aloneuntil I get through this.
And so a lot of times if you havesomebody who's that's their coping
mechanism, do you hand them a book aboutthe thing that they should be coping?
(30:19):
They're like, no, thank you.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (30:21):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: I don't want that (30:21):
undefined
. Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Absolutely.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And so when you find something that (30:22):
undefined
touches on this, but it's not aboutthis, it's so helpful to have, you know,
this character is going through things,but that's not the point of the story.
Cause it's not the pointof our lives either.
Right.
No one is wanting to sitthrough life and think.
Gosh, my life is about gettingthrough grief because it's not.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: No, (30:43):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: it's great. (30:43):
undefined
There's a lot of other things goodto be happening in life and it's
not my main journey to get throughgrief and identifying that coping
mechanism and stories when it's not.
All about this one thingis so helpful, right?
Because life goes on so for childrenlike Harry Potter's really great
with that because Harry goes...
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: ah, I love Harry Potter. (31:03):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: I mean doesn't everybody (31:07):
undefined
in our generation?
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (31:09):
undefined
Yes
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: But he copes with The grief of (31:11):
undefined
his parents, and he copes with thegrief of his parents through his
age groups, which is something thathappens to kids who have lost parents.
They process again and again andagain, the loss that they've been
through, and he processes the lossof friendships, and he processes this
that he's living in, but it's not.
necessarily the point of his journey.
(31:32):
And I think that's why so manypeople resonate with that story.
It can give them coping mechanisms withoutbeating you over the head with them.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (31:38):
undefined
Yeah, definitely.
You're like entertained by thestory, but like you can see
yourself in the main character.
You can relate to the story and thatis, I see that's good for teenagers
and slash people who are in denial.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (31:53):
undefined
In general.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: In general. (31:56):
undefined
How would you suggest partnerssupport the person who is, I mean,
they are experiencing the loss, butthe person who, who is miscarrying.
Or has miscarried?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: I mean, (32:09):
undefined
first and foremost, I would say that it'skind of twofold recognize that no matter
what stage you have this miscarriageand your body's up going through a lot.
So, I mean, we're hoping everybody hassupportive partners, feminist and lovely,
but that doesn't happen all the time.
You can't expect that your partner isgoing to jump up and keep the house clean
(32:30):
and do the same child care that she wasdoing before because her body is in pain.
She has either gone through a massiveabdominal procedure or she's taken
medications that have made her havethe worst period of her whole life.
She's processed potentiallyseeing fetal tissue in the toilet,
which is the worst thing that hasever happened to me personally.
All of those things are very traumatic.
They hurt.
(32:51):
Your body will not feelthe same for a while.
Expecting a body to functionthe same is not fair or right.
So that's like a very basic need.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Very (33:00):
undefined
basic.
Yeah, like I am, I'm not okay.
Treat me as if I had surgery.
Because I did
probably.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (33:06):
undefined
I'm not a powerhouse.
I can't do this without some downtime.
And the other thing I wouldsay is process your own grief.
The best you can, right.
Recognize that your partnerwill want to talk to you.
She will want to, if she can talk toyou through these things, but your
grief and the things that you aregoing through are your responsibility.
(33:28):
They're not hers.
And however you need to deal with that, doit, you know, use your coping mechanisms.
Go to therapy.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Please, men, go to therapy. (33:36):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: All men should go to therapy. (33:37):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Like anyone, everyone. (33:39):
undefined
Men
for real.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Men for real. (33:41):
undefined
Go to therapy.
And so the other podcast that I'vebeen on, that I talked about this
with is a man named Khamenei Abraham.
And he is a therapist.
And it was just so, cause it was a verydifferent conversation, but we talked
a lot about how therapy can help withall of this and how we use literature
and therapy and all that stuff.
But my point is therapy is greatfor everybody and not just for
the person who's had the loss.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (34:03):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Good for partners too, because again, (34:03):
undefined
your partner is not your therapist.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Right. (34:07):
undefined
Definitely.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Which is an important distinction. (34:08):
undefined
Those would be my big three.
Use your coping mechanisms, go totherapy, and treat your partner as if
they have undergone massive bodily injury.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Which (34:20):
undefined
they have.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes, they have. (34:21):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (34:22):
undefined
And not only that, they've, it's alsomassive emotional, mental injury too.
It's not just like, Oh, I had surgery.
So I really appreciate your time.
It has been so good talking to you.
It's been on my heart to doa episode on miscarriage.
I have a coworker who is, uspostpartum nurses are very open
(34:42):
about this, but she, which is kindof, is wonderful as it should be.
But she recently experienced anothermiscarriage and I just was, you know,
so I wanted to do an episode cause it'sbeen on my heart myself and October
was pregnancy loss awareness month.
So, uh, and then your messageshowed up in my inbox.
So your timing couldn't have been better.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Perfect timing. (35:02):
undefined
It's meant to be.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: It's meant to be. (35:04):
undefined
What is your website again?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: My website is openwindowstories. (35:06):
undefined
It's on buzzsprout.
I'll send you links and I'll send youall the resources that we talked about.
Thank you so much for having me.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (35:15):
undefined
Yes.
Everyone, this is Meredith Goodwin.
Once again, a family palliativenurse practitioner who has, like
me, experienced her own loss andour losses definitely acknowledged.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Thank you again. (35:31):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Thank you. (35:32):
undefined
I really appreciate your time.
That was Meredith Goodwin, FamilyPalliative Nurse Practitioner.
Thank you, Meredith, so much forbeing on and thank you for being
so open and sharing your stories.
It is my hope with the Mommy Mentor tomake moms and parents feel like they're
not alone in this parenting game.
(35:52):
It can be very isolating, andespecially when the only people
you talk to in a day are children.
So, I hope that if you sawyourselves in one of our stories,
that you found comfort in it.
If you'd like more information, resourcesthat Meredith provided about grief, and
(36:13):
how to cope with it, and how to cope withloss, there are links in the show notes.
You'll also find information on herbook, and if you would like more
information on this podcast, you canfind me on Instagram at mymommymentor.
And my website is mommymentorpodcast.
com.
(36:33):
I look forward to hearingyour thoughts on this episode.
Please message me if you haveany thoughts or questions or
feelings about this episode.
I would love for youto DM me on Instagram.
And also if you have any ideas or topicsyou'd like me to cover in future episodes,
(36:54):
please, I am open to suggestions.
You can message me onInstagram, mymommymentor.
Have a lovely whatever time of dayyou're listening to this episode and
I will talk to you guys next time
undefined
This parenting bullsheetis hard, am I right?
From sleepless nights with newbornsto sleepless nights with teens,
from potty training to sending themoff to college, I'm here to get you
through it all as your Mommy Mentor.
My name is Erinn Kennedy- Heldt and I'ma registered nurse and a mom of three.
(00:25):
I have professional experience withmoms and babies as a postpartum
nurse, which keeps the postpartum andnewborn experience fresh in my mind.
And I have 17 years ofparenting experience as well.
For information on this podcastand more, go to mommymentorpodcast.
com.
Parents, grab a cup of whatever youprefer and settle in for the next
(00:47):
episode.
Hello, everyone.
I have a special guest this episode.
She is very smart.
She is a hospice and palliativecertified family nurse practitioner.
And if you don't know what that is,don't worry, I'm going to ask her.
(01:07):
I was inspired already to do anepisode on pregnancy loss and
she then messaged me and I said,let's do this episode together.
It is Meredith Goodwin.
I just wanted to ask you, whatis your role as a palliative
family nurse practitioner?
What do you do?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So, as a hospice and palliative nurse (01:25):
undefined
practitioner, I was on a hospice team.
I would go into patient homesand help manage symptoms that
come with the dying process.
So, with hospice and palliative, this iswhen Patient has to qualify for hospice,
two doctors have to agree that theywould not be surprised if the patient
(01:47):
would pass away within six months.
And then if it's okay with the family,they can do hospice in which we would,
do no, aggressive interventions, right?
So.
They can still go to the hospitalif they want to, but then
they'd come off of hospice care.
If they decide to stay with us,then we just manage symptoms.
We don't do anythingaggressively life saving.
(02:07):
Um, and my role as the provider wasprimarily to manage pain, to manage
breathing symptoms, to help thefamily recognize when a patient was
moving into the next stage of thisprocess and to help prepare them and
talk them through grief and connectthem with resources and all of that.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Gotcha. (02:27):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So, I did that both virtually (02:27):
undefined
and in patients homes.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I see. (02:30):
undefined
I was a postpartum nurse.
I still do that part time andI am now a care coordinator.
So at a hospital andit's an oncology unit.
So, um, I, I send people home with homecare, but my coworker, the social worker,
she does a lot of hospice placement.
So I have dabbled in a littlebit of hospice placement.
So I kind of know a lot about therules that you just talked about,
(02:53):
which It seems crazy to have to talkabout rules with hospice and end of
life care, but that is our system.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yep. (03:00):
undefined
That's how it goes, unfortunately.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (03:04):
undefined
Yes.
But, um, primarily I, I would like tofocus on what kinds of things would you do
for the family, like emotionally supportand what resources would you give them?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So the resources side of things, I (03:15):
undefined
always like to go very factual, verywhat to expect anticipatory guidance.
Having been a family member of somebodyon hospice myself, especially as a child.
I lost my father when he was 14 to cancer.
And, um, when nobody is telling you.
(03:35):
What to expect and nobody is walkingyou through what is going to come next.
It gets very anxiety provoking.
It's very scary and noteverybody wants to know.
Right.
But the first thing that I alwaysask family is like, do you want
to talk about what's coming next?
Let's talk about what we seeright here and what this means.
And do you want to know what.
(03:56):
What comes next and howwe prepare for that.
Gone From My Sight is a hospice bookthat's written by a hospice nurse who
has 50 years, any, any nurse anywhereknows about Gone From My Sight.
It's in school.
It's a, you know, we talk about itall the time, but it's very simple.
It's very, uh, basic reading level.
It's easy to understand and it, itdoes a very good job generalizing
the four stages of the dying process.
(04:18):
Recommend that to everybody.
The other things that I would, resourcesthat I would give to families, a
lot of times like the ELNEC websiteis good at, at individualizing
symptoms and symptom management.
Um, in my organization, we have symptommanagement cards, which say individually.
pain, shortness of breath, anxiety,constipation, all the things that
(04:41):
we really focus on in hospice andwhat tools you have as a family or
caregiver to manage those things.
It's really helpful to a family.
As far as the grieving processgoes for families, um, really
depends on what stage of life.
The patient or their family are in, right?
If you have a grandmother who's theprimary caregiver of grandkids, that's
(05:03):
a whole different deal than somebodywith adult children who we were
expecting this grandma's had dementiafor, you know, five years and so.
That gets really individualized by family.
Uh, we do a lot of connectingpeople to groups of support groups.
We do a lot of connecting people tovolunteer caregivers just to offload
(05:24):
caregiver burden and caregiver stress.
We have a bereavement coordinatorwho It was a PhD in divinity she's,
like the coolest person I know.
And she, she does a reallygood job with the kids.
You know, she brings books and she'llsit down and she'll talk to them.
And also understanding wherea family is coming from.
You know, we have some families whoreally avoid it and we don't want to
talk about death and they don't haveany processing, no coping mechanisms.
(05:47):
And so addressing that with thosefamilies is a lot harder than
families who have like an established,this is how I think about this.
This is how I feel about this.
This is how I talk to my kids about this.
If they don't have those structures inplace, it can feel very catastrophic.
This is only happening to me.
This is, this is only somethingthat's affecting my family.
And that's, that's a lot harderbecause I can't force you to pick
(06:08):
a way to think about that, right?
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah, for sure. (06:10):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (06:12):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: For sure. (06:12):
undefined
You spoke about so many thingsthat are familiar to me.
I'm glad for all the information.
Yes.
It's all good.
And I am sorry about yourloss of your father at 14.
I was a little older, 23,but very sudden death.
And also I had just had mytwins who were born prematurely.
So it was ridiculous timing andprobably not so good for me emotionally.
(06:35):
Probably not.
Yeah.
It's it.
Grief is definitely tricky and youhave to like factor in, like you said,
what stage of life are these people in?
Do they have young children?
Are they primary caregivers?
Are they not primary caregivers?
Uh, what resources do they have and theirfamilies have and what is, you know, like
we also have cultural things to consider.
(06:56):
That's beside just how are you doingemotionally and how are you grieving
and, and do you want to talk about this?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, but I think for myself,I would prefer knowledge.
So I think it's great to give thoseoptions because I think knowledge is
just like huge and you can kind ofrecognize it and then walk yourself
through the grieving process step by step,really, just because you can recognize
(07:19):
what's happening in front of you.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah, I agree. (07:22):
undefined
I feel that most families really prefer tohave at least some sort of, even if they
don't want to talk about it right now,like, you know, I want to leave it, but
let me leave this resource so I can seewhat's coming when I'm, when I'm ready.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (07:35):
undefined
Yep.
A lot.
Sometimes you're just leavingit and letting them come
to it when they're ready.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (07:40):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Definitely. (07:41):
undefined
Do you have any experience work wisein helping patients and families
through pregnancy loss and grieving?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Only my own. (07:50):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Only your own. (07:51):
undefined
Okay.
Yeah.
Same here.
I have not worked in that arena.
Yeah.
Same here.
I've, um, I, because I,I'm a postpartum nurse and.
To be, to be honest, they, whena person needed to have like a
D&C or something at my hospital,they never came to the postpartum
unit because there's babies there.
You do not, you don't put people who hadmiscarriages on the postpartum floor.
(08:13):
So I never had experience in caringfor people in miscarriage either.
However, I've had my.
My own, and I know a lot ofpeople who have had them.
They're very common.
Um, unfortunately one in fivepeople and they can just happen
for a lot of different reasons.
And just personally,for me, it was sudden.
It was weird.
(08:33):
I had had the girls I had had, theywere twins, but they were preemies.
So because of the twins,not any other reason.
And then we wanted to have another childand I got pregnant and it was fine.
And then.
Boom, miscarriage.
And it was about eight weeks.
And then we tried again a yearlater and it was, I was 20 weeks
and the baby actually passedlike two weeks before that.
(08:57):
So it was 18 weeks when it died.
And then I had a D&C with that one.
And after that, my OB was like,okay, like what's going on and did
a whole bunch of labs and things.
Turns out I have factor five Leiden.
I need to be on bloodthinners when I'm pregnant.
Yeah.
So who knew?
I didn't know.
(09:18):
And also I was on estrogen basedbirth control for seven years.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Our stories are very similar. (09:22):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: That's so scary. (09:23):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So scary. (09:26):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: A lot of women find this out this (09:26):
undefined
way, unfortunately, they find outthings about their health this way.
And so then my third one was becausewe started the Lovenox too early.
And then I got my son and now he'swonderful and 12 and he, I swear, wasn't
going to come out even at 39 weeks.
So, yeah, he took his sweet time and soit all worked out and I'm glad to know
(09:50):
that I have the clotting disorder becauseI've also passed it on to my daughters,
but to find out that way is not fun.
Definitely, like I said.
I've shared my experience withmiscarriages and I know you can share
as much as you want or as little as youwant, but as both of us who are healthcare
professionals and we have experiencedpregnancy loss ourselves, how did you
(10:15):
find your, your job helping you cope?
You know, the fact with the job thatyou do, how did that help you cope?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: First of all, I want to say (10:21):
undefined
as a healthcare system, I think that wehave come a long way in caring for women
who have, who are undergoing pregnancyloss, but I also feel like we have.
Really long way to go.
Um, I feel like, you know, backin the day it was like this is
happening and then a tush hush andeverybody treats you like a tush hush
and nobody wants to talk about it.
(10:42):
And that is very isolating and veryscary and feels, you know, stigmatizing.
And there, you know, we've come along way in researching the causes of
miscarriages and and pregnancy loss, butI also think that the way that the the
way we train nurses and doctors to talkto women who are going through this loss
(11:03):
Uh, it leaves a lot to be desired still.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I agree. (11:05):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: The only help that I got from go (11:06):
undefined
undergoing this process is from thebereavement coordinator at my work It
was you know, not from And they haveresources at these, at these centers,
but the most that they do is like, Oh,here's a social worker if you want to.
And, and, and maybe it's just myexperience, but negative experiences,
um, with the kind of like post groupsupport groups when I lost my dad.
(11:31):
And obviously I was a teenager and I wasvery young, that was a long time ago and
so it was different, but I just very muchdid not want to talk to a group of women
who had been undergoing the same thing.
And I didn't want to sit with anybody whowas going to be cheery and like talk to me
like I was a child that really bothers me.
I'm sure it bothers everybody,but the vibe that I was up with.
(11:54):
And I think that treating women whoare undergoing a loss like this as if
they're having a loss is really important.
Acknowledging that there's grief thatcomes with this, um, when you address a
woman who's having a miscarriage and say,Oh, well, this happens to a lot of women.
Like, I'm sorry, peopleexperience loss every day.
That doesn't make it lessimpactful of what I'm, yeah,
(12:17):
painful of what I'm going through.
Uh, and so.
I would say that the number one thingthat my job helped me with is having
a very established foundation of likehow I think about death and dying and
what I think about life and what doesthat mean, especially coming, um, and
I might get myself in trouble here, butcoming from a very religious background
(12:37):
that shames a lot of pregnancy laws.
And, and being able to say like, Oh, Hey,like, this is not something that I did,
you know, and coming to terms with, withmy beliefs and feelings about what is a
life and what isn't, and how does thismake me feel about needing to have a D&C,
needing to take an abortion pill, becauseI did twice, have to, should be an , um,
(13:00):
fetal tissue, uh, and, and that was all.
A framework that I had establishedbecause of dealing with grief in my
job, not something that the peoplewho were responsible for caring for
me were in any way equipped to walkme through in any of those times.
So it was more my job...
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: ...that helped you cope with (13:20):
undefined
this than the care team.
And I mean, I would.
I would likely agree.
I didn't have horrible experiences,but at the same time, I don't
know how old you were, but I thinkmy age had a lot to do with it.
I was in my early 20s, and I was just,I don't know, something about that
age group is just like, no, I gotthis, you know, because you're just
trying to be an adult, I think, andyou're just, Like overly aggressive
(13:42):
about how you can handle things.
Maybe that's it.
I don't know.
But for me, I was justlike, no, thank you.
I have it under control.
And do you want to have a, youknow, do you want the, do you
want to have a burial, do youwant to have the information?
No, no, no.
Thank you.
And I was just like,denial, denial, denial.
And that is absolutely not the way to goabout it because like, you know, however
many years later, that's still, that'sgoing to come and bite you in the butt.
(14:05):
But.
The people who were providingthe care weren't finding
out, like, what is her why?
Why is she like this?
You know, like, they justlet me keep my door shut.
Let me just, you know, leave it alone.
Leave me alone, kind of a thing.
And My doctor made a mistake, like Ididn't want, who wants to know what
(14:28):
a baby that they, I mean, I don'tknow, maybe people do if they're older
babies, mine were young, young, youknow, like not viable at all, you know?
And so I was, I guess I thought thatthere were people, but I didn't want
to know what this baby was, especiallythe oldest one that I had miscarried.
And they sent everything to the lab to,you know, because as they do to check and
(14:50):
make sure everything's fine genetically.
And My OB, who I love by the way, andshe's still my OB to this day, she's
been my OB for 17 years, but she isjust like not, and I get it because in
healthcare, we, this is our job, youknow, like sometimes we can get so like
lackadaisical about it and just like,it's something that we do every day.
(15:12):
We see every day we talk,we like are exposed.
And so it's almost desensitizing ina way, which is unfortunate because
that is not the way it should be.
And I try really hard whenI'm caring for women, not.
Like I said, not with loss, but obviouslypostpartum women are emotional, um,
to try to like put myself in theirshoes as much as humanly possible.
(15:33):
But my OB made the mistake oftelling me in a voicemail that I
had miscarried a healthy baby boy.
And I'm like, well great, that's wonderfulthat he was healthy, unfortunately...
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: ...until he died. (15:46):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Until he died. (15:47):
undefined
Thank you.
Right.
Right.
So, and I mean, I'm just like "ugh".
You know, that was like a gut punch.
A person doesn't need.
So it's like, I would agree withyou, the healthcare system and
it is getting better, um, but thehealthcare system is, does not address
pregnancy loss as it should at all.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: No, no, no. (16:06):
undefined
Yeah.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I mean, the emotional aspect and (16:09):
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also like, we're not even talkingabout the dads or the partners.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Uh, and there's nothing, there's (16:14):
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nothing, there's nothing that was, Imean, my husband's a surgeon who's in
the healthcare field, just like I am.
Um, And.
I mean, there wasn'teven any offer to know
for him to talk about.
So then I felt, and this is nothis fault, it's very, very clear.
Like you did not make me responsiblefor his grieving process.
(16:36):
But I felt like I had to manage not just,I mean, because my, so we didn't get
into my story and we can talk about it.
Um, but.
I had five miscarriages in a row.
And the last one was the one thatwe finally thought like, this is it.
It made it past 12 weeks.
Things are doing fine.
And just like you said, like with yours,mine wasn't quite as far along, but it was
(16:59):
15 weeks and he'd been dead for two weeks.
And, um, so I already knewwe had done genetic testings.
We'd had so many before this, wewere like really worried about it.
No one would.
Give me anything to try it out.
They didn't want me to do progesterone.
They didn't want me to do Levinox.
They don't want me to doanything because we didn't have
any evidence for any of this.
I understand, but you'relike, there's five.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (17:21):
undefined
Like, why aren't we intervening?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes. (17:24):
undefined
Yes.
So, um, and on this fifth one, it was justpeople knew like the, I had, I had one.
One at eight weeks, one at six weeks andthree that were, um, so I've actually
had six miscarriages, but five wereafter my, my live birth daughter.
(17:45):
And then the one before, like, itwas at five weeks since it didn't
really register to me, you know?
Yeah.
And I had my daughter and then I hadone at six weeks that was healthy,
one at, sorry, one at eight weeksthat was healthy, one at six weeks
that had a trisomy after we did IUI,they did all the, that one was non
viable and we found out really early.
(18:05):
Um, and then two more chemicalpregnancies that were like, you know,
five weeks tops, um, just positivepregnancy test and then no more.
And then the 15 week one.
And, um, that one we got past 12 weeks.
So we had told everybody, we had toldthe parents and we had told the people at
(18:26):
work and I, cause we were in the processof moving from Michigan to Illinois and
they had the most finishing fellowship.
And there were just so many people thatwere aware of what I was going through
and so many people to be so helpful, buta lot of times you end up feeling like
you have to manage their grief as well.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (18:46):
undefined
It's okay.
I'm okay.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes. (18:48):
undefined
Like you don't need to worry about me.
Let's talk about you.
Which is just not
the same.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I'm so sorry. (18:53):
undefined
Sorry.
And then you're immediately taking it onlike, Oh no, you're everything's fine.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Or they jump into their story about (18:57):
undefined
loss, which is again, wonderful.
Sharing is great.
We want to be open, but whensomebody is in the immediate throes
of loss, talking about your lossis just really, really not helpful.
Like even if you've had a good outcomeafter, even if you've been through
it, you know, because again, It's likeif you lost a family member, no, I
(19:18):
didn't know this baby for very long.
No, I didn't.
But I, hearing about the death of yourdad does not help me process the death
of mine when I am struggling, right?
So, um, there was a lot of that.
And then circling back to my husbandagain, there's no resources for him.
He's obviously struggling.
He was very excited about this baby.
(19:38):
It was a baby boy.
It's very happy.
It's very excited about that.
Um, and then You know, we'reboth up all night crying.
We're both, you know, trying to goto work and trying to pull the pieces
together and trying to parent our threeyear old at the time and explain to
her what was going on and, you know,why mommy and daddy are sad and why
(19:59):
grandma's here and why grandma's sad.
You know, she, that was another thing.
She had known that I was pregnant.
And so we had to set her down andtell her and, and then process her
grief through that whole thing,which obviously it's very tricky.
It's just three.
There's a lot of grieving processesthat happen when you're three that
don't happen when you're an adult.
Right.
Um, And so when, when you just leave womenwho've had a loss with, with no resources
(20:25):
for their partners, no ways to telltheir kids, again, I was very fortunate.
I worked with grief.
I worked with stuff.
I have resources to talk to my kidabout this, say, recognize stress
responses from what they are.
But even so, it was a very stressfultime in my marriage and we had
jumped right into doing IVF after,and, you know, walking through that.
And I, I mean, I.
(20:45):
I remember very vividly my husbandbeing like, I'm doing this with you.
And I was like, then why do Ifeel like I'm doing it alone?
And it was a horrible thing to saythings like that to your husband.
But it was just, it was very, very roughknowing that I am the support system here.
I am trying to hold allthese things together.
Um, but yet this happened to me, right?
(21:07):
Like, yes, it happened to everybodyelse, but it happened inside my body.
And it happened.
I am the one with the hormonesand the weight and everything.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (21:15):
undefined
Yep.
And I'm the one who's wantedchildren since God knows how long.
And it's in my body.
Like, you don't understandthe connection is different.
Yes.
Yep.
I, I understand.
My husband, like I said, Icoped by denial, so I denied
all of his feelings too.
We like everyday life just went on.
We had twins to be fair,so they keep life busy.
(21:39):
You have to, um, but they were only 18months at when my first miscarriage,
there's no, they didn't even knowI was pregnant and there was no
explaining that to a one year oldexactly, even if they knew, but.
They didn't know and they never knew.
Um, when I had a miscarriagewith the last one, I don't know.
(21:59):
I am unsure how they didn't know Iwas pregnant because I was like 18
weeks.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right, right. (22:04):
undefined
You like, look pregnant.
At that point.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I looked pregnant at that point. (22:06):
undefined
Yeah.
But it was winter, so I waslucky enough to wear like large
sweatshirts and stuff and you know,maybe mommy just was getting fat.
Who knows?
But they never didn't notice anything.
And that was my biggest fear with my son.
My, you know, my rainbow baby was that.
They are four now.
They're four and a half.
They're gonna be five when he's born.
(22:27):
I can't, I can't even fathomexplaining this to them.
And that was like a huge fear for me.
And honestly, it was a top fear.
It was, it was, it was abovemy own grief, to be honest.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (22:40):
undefined
Because it's
worse to explain, to watchyour child grieve something
than it is to feel it yourself.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (22:47):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (22:47):
undefined
Any, and it's important regardless ofthe grief that you're talking about.
You want to explain things tochildren and concrete details.
You don't want to use euphemisms.
You don't want to lie because Evenif you're trying to protect their
feelings, children are very smart.
They know things, bad things happen.
And unfortunately, especially if you'rein the under four age group, they tend
(23:09):
to think if something bad happens, if ithasn't been explained to them, they tend
to think it's their fault for some reason.
It's just a thing that, so wewanted to be very, very factual,
um, with my daughter, very concrete.
And what we said was that, youknow, I know she had to pick up
some daycare from my friends.
We were in the hospital all night.
(23:29):
Just, you
know, rough for everybody.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah, life was different (23:31):
undefined
and we had to explain why.
Yes.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (23:34):
undefined
So I sat her down in the morning.
I said, I know, you know that mommy wasin the hospital last night and that's
because they went to the doctor to checkon the baby and there was no heartbeat.
Um, and he, so his heart stopped workingand he had stopped growing and he died
and the doctors had to take him out.
And that's something that like,you know, it's still a lot to
(23:56):
process for a three year old.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: It's still so much, yes. (23:57):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right, um, and the first thing she did (23:58):
undefined
was react, you know, the first thingshe did was like hit me and cry because
she was three and she's angry and shedoesn't know why she feels that way.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Of course. (24:06):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And so we had to talk about (24:07):
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like, I know that makes you sad.
Mommy's sad too.
Mommy's angry too.
Well, you can be angry at mommy.
That's okay.
And, you know, then realizing that onceshe processes through all these emotions.
It's going to come up later.
Oh, yeah.
So you hear about it when she, you know,we're crying and everybody's upset and she
(24:27):
goes into like a little bit of regression.
There's more tantrums and she's nottelling you why she won't tell you why you
just have to give her a little bit moregrace than you would, uh, if she were just
acting out because she's a three, right?
Like there was a time I broughtthis up in another conversation.
Like this, but my mom was therehelping us out and she had some
(24:48):
popcorn and Reagan was my daughter.
Reagan wanted some because she wouldjust try to take it from my mom.
And my mom said that Idon't, we don't like that.
We don't do that with grandma.
And then Reagan got upset and shewas like, two days after, right.
We'd been in the hospital and mymom went into the whole thing.
Like, we don't talk to grandma like that.
That makes grandma really sad.
(25:09):
And I like.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: You're like, hold on a minute. (25:11):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Like this is not what's happening, like I (25:12):
undefined
picked her up and she's just like bawling.
I was like, this isn'tabout popcorn, right?
Like this isn't about, and she'ssad and we have to talk about this.
I understand that you're sad.
I know that you reallywanted to be a big sister.
You really wanted a babybrother and mommy's sad too.
And you know.
We can get some popcorn.
It's okay.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah, definitely. (25:32):
undefined
We'll get you some popcorn.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And so, you know, obviously that (25:34):
undefined
conversation changes as you get older,but you know, even so further down, my
daughter's four just, just turned fourin November and I'm pregnant again.
I'm 26 weeks.
Thank you.
Um, you know, I'm a pretty good.
(25:55):
I'm on Lovenox as well.
I don't have factor five.
So they just,
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I'm just so (26:00):
undefined
excited.
My girls were born.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yeah. (26:02):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: My girls were born at 28 weeks (26:03):
undefined
and I'm like, girl, you're fine.
You're fine.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And he's been kicking me this whole time. (26:07):
undefined
He's like, mom, you're talking about me.
Um, but yeah, so.
There was a time I got prettysick a couple weeks ago, right?
It's just like my body hurts andI just had to lay down for like
three days in a row and My daughterwas getting all anxious and weird.
(26:30):
What what's wrong, honey?
Like what's going on?
She was like, but is the baby sick too?
Like is his heart stop beating?
It's like no No, he's okay We wentto the doctor and he's okay and so
Addressing that those tears come uplater, you know, and reassuring us,
not just you that's anxious about baby.
(26:52):
It's, you know,
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Oh my gosh, everyone's... (26:52):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: ...everyone's anxious. (26:54):
undefined
Yes,
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: yes, definitely. (26:56):
undefined
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
I, that was one of my questionsis you answered it already.
It was like, how are you parenting herthrough grief and are there books and
resources or websites for children, likehelping your children process grief?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: There are so many. (27:15):
undefined
Um, and that's so part of thereason when I get into podcasting
is I write children's stories.
That's on my podcast.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: That's what I forgot to (27:23):
undefined
tell the people that.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: It's okay, (27:26):
undefined
I'll have a link later.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: She illustrates people, (27:27):
undefined
children's stories.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Children's (27:30):
undefined
stories.
Um, and I read them on my podcastand, um, I have some that are, you
know, I hope to have a YouTube channelwith the fully illustrated versions.
Not all of them are like, let's talk abouta hard subject, but some of them address,
I got a chance to guest star on a.
bedtime stories for children's podcast.
And they read my story, happypizza, which is about what I just
(27:50):
talk about my loss in that story.
And you know, from a child's perspective.
And so there's, yeah, it's in, I'vehad multiple women who I know who've
also been through loss with children.
And they're like, I love that story.
We talk about having pizza all the time.
And so that one's not on mywebsite yet, but I'll give you a
link.
I'll email it to you.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Perfect. (28:10):
undefined
I will put it in the show notes.
It'll be in the show notes.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So, as far as we're talking about (28:14):
undefined
literature, which is just, I think,so important if we help kids, if
you can find yourself in literature,you can find a way to walk through
whatever problem that you have.
Right.
I think that's a hugecoping mechanism of mine.
So if you just like Googlekids, books, grief, there are.
age appropriate books from 0 to18 that walk you through grief.
(28:36):
And I went through and tried to makea list and there's just so many.
So just Google it.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Totally. (28:40):
undefined
Yeah.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: But I also have a list of (28:42):
undefined
resources specifically for kidswho are experiencing grief.
There's several different websites.
One of them is like, you canorder a care package for the kids
that are going through grief.
One of them has talking points.
One of them has supportgroups in your area.
One has a, you know, network.
So I'll send you all of those.
You can include them.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes, (28:59):
undefined
I will put them in the show notes.
I sure will.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Um, and then the other thing I'll say (29:02):
undefined
is that we have, I guess your kidsare older, but we, people who have
kids my age, um, have been blessedto be parenting in the age of Bluey.
And Bluey is so amazing.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: I actually hear about Bluey. (29:17):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes, about grief. (29:19):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Bluey is very progressive. (29:20):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: So Progressive, Progressive (29:22):
undefined
for Parents, Progressive forKids, Progressive for grief.
Bluey is amazing.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes, (29:28):
undefined
I've heard this.
I think, isn't therea miscarriage episode?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes, there is. (29:32):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes, I heard about that. (29:32):
undefined
I'm like, genius, this is amazing.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: It's just such a great (29:37):
undefined
resource for parents.
So, finding books, finding stories.
And I think, also, I, you talkedabout how you were so avoidant
and you're coping when you're 23.
Um, I don't think that's age dependent,but it is also very, because I avoid it.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: And it could easily just be (29:53):
undefined
the way I cope with things.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (29:56):
undefined
I'm 36.
I coped the same way when I was 14 and 36.
So like I, it was, yeah, but it is avery teenage way to, to cope with grief
is to shut down and be like, I don'twant to talk to anybody about anything.
You just leave me aloneuntil I get through this.
And so a lot of times if you havesomebody who's that's their coping
mechanism, do you hand them a book aboutthe thing that they should be coping?
(30:19):
They're like, no, thank you.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (30:21):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: I don't want that (30:21):
undefined
. Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Absolutely.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: And so when you find something that (30:22):
undefined
touches on this, but it's not aboutthis, it's so helpful to have, you know,
this character is going through things,but that's not the point of the story.
Cause it's not the pointof our lives either.
Right.
No one is wanting to sitthrough life and think.
Gosh, my life is about gettingthrough grief because it's not.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: No, (30:43):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: it's great. (30:43):
undefined
There's a lot of other things goodto be happening in life and it's
not my main journey to get throughgrief and identifying that coping
mechanism and stories when it's not.
All about this one thingis so helpful, right?
Because life goes on so for childrenlike Harry Potter's really great
with that because Harry goes...
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: ah, I love Harry Potter. (31:03):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: I mean doesn't everybody (31:07):
undefined
in our generation?
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (31:09):
undefined
Yes
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: But he copes with The grief of (31:11):
undefined
his parents, and he copes with thegrief of his parents through his
age groups, which is something thathappens to kids who have lost parents.
They process again and again andagain, the loss that they've been
through, and he processes the lossof friendships, and he processes this
that he's living in, but it's not.
necessarily the point of his journey.
(31:32):
And I think that's why so manypeople resonate with that story.
It can give them coping mechanisms withoutbeating you over the head with them.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (31:38):
undefined
Yeah, definitely.
You're like entertained by thestory, but like you can see
yourself in the main character.
You can relate to the story and thatis, I see that's good for teenagers
and slash people who are in denial.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (31:53):
undefined
In general.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: In general. (31:56):
undefined
How would you suggest partnerssupport the person who is, I mean,
they are experiencing the loss, butthe person who, who is miscarrying.
Or has miscarried?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: I mean, (32:09):
undefined
first and foremost, I would say that it'skind of twofold recognize that no matter
what stage you have this miscarriageand your body's up going through a lot.
So, I mean, we're hoping everybody hassupportive partners, feminist and lovely,
but that doesn't happen all the time.
You can't expect that your partner isgoing to jump up and keep the house clean
(32:30):
and do the same child care that she wasdoing before because her body is in pain.
She has either gone through a massiveabdominal procedure or she's taken
medications that have made her havethe worst period of her whole life.
She's processed potentiallyseeing fetal tissue in the toilet,
which is the worst thing that hasever happened to me personally.
All of those things are very traumatic.
They hurt.
(32:51):
Your body will not feelthe same for a while.
Expecting a body to functionthe same is not fair or right.
So that's like a very basic need.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Very (33:00):
undefined
basic.
Yeah, like I am, I'm not okay.
Treat me as if I had surgery.
Because I did
probably.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Right. (33:06):
undefined
I'm not a powerhouse.
I can't do this without some downtime.
And the other thing I wouldsay is process your own grief.
The best you can, right.
Recognize that your partnerwill want to talk to you.
She will want to, if she can talk toyou through these things, but your
grief and the things that you aregoing through are your responsibility.
(33:28):
They're not hers.
And however you need to deal with that, doit, you know, use your coping mechanisms.
Go to therapy.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Please, men, go to therapy. (33:36):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: All men should go to therapy. (33:37):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Like anyone, everyone. (33:39):
undefined
Men
for real.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Men for real. (33:41):
undefined
Go to therapy.
And so the other podcast that I'vebeen on, that I talked about this
with is a man named Khamenei Abraham.
And he is a therapist.
And it was just so, cause it was a verydifferent conversation, but we talked
a lot about how therapy can help withall of this and how we use literature
and therapy and all that stuff.
But my point is therapy is greatfor everybody and not just for
the person who's had the loss.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yeah. (34:03):
undefined
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Good for partners too, because again, (34:03):
undefined
your partner is not your therapist.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Right. (34:07):
undefined
Definitely.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Which is an important distinction. (34:08):
undefined
Those would be my big three.
Use your coping mechanisms, go totherapy, and treat your partner as if
they have undergone massive bodily injury.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Which (34:20):
undefined
they have.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Yes, they have. (34:21):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (34:22):
undefined
And not only that, they've, it's alsomassive emotional, mental injury too.
It's not just like, Oh, I had surgery.
So I really appreciate your time.
It has been so good talking to you.
It's been on my heart to doa episode on miscarriage.
I have a coworker who is, uspostpartum nurses are very open
(34:42):
about this, but she, which is kindof, is wonderful as it should be.
But she recently experienced anothermiscarriage and I just was, you know,
so I wanted to do an episode cause it'sbeen on my heart myself and October
was pregnancy loss awareness month.
So, uh, and then your messageshowed up in my inbox.
So your timing couldn't have been better.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Perfect timing. (35:02):
undefined
It's meant to be.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: It's meant to be. (35:04):
undefined
What is your website again?
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: My website is openwindowstories. (35:06):
undefined
It's on buzzsprout.
I'll send you links and I'll send youall the resources that we talked about.
Thank you so much for having me.
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Yes. (35:15):
undefined
Yes.
Everyone, this is Meredith Goodwin.
Once again, a family palliativenurse practitioner who has, like
me, experienced her own loss andour losses definitely acknowledged.
Meredith Goodwin, Hospice & Palliative Certified Family Nurse Practitioner: Thank you again. (35:31):
undefined
Erinn Kennedy-Heldt, RN, the Mommy Mentor: Thank you. (35:32):
undefined
I really appreciate your time.
That was Meredith Goodwin, FamilyPalliative Nurse Practitioner.
Thank you, Meredith, so much forbeing on and thank you for being
so open and sharing your stories.
It is my hope with the Mommy Mentor tomake moms and parents feel like they're
not alone in this parenting game.
(35:52):
It can be very isolating, andespecially when the only people
you talk to in a day are children.
So, I hope that if you sawyourselves in one of our stories,
that you found comfort in it.
If you'd like more information, resourcesthat Meredith provided about grief, and
(36:13):
how to cope with it, and how to cope withloss, there are links in the show notes.
You'll also find information on herbook, and if you would like more
information on this podcast, you canfind me on Instagram at mymommymentor.
And my website is mommymentorpodcast.
com.
(36:33):
I look forward to hearingyour thoughts on this episode.
Please message me if you haveany thoughts or questions or
feelings about this episode.
I would love for youto DM me on Instagram.
And also if you have any ideas or topicsyou'd like me to cover in future episodes,
(36:54):
please, I am open to suggestions.
You can message me onInstagram, mymommymentor.
Have a lovely whatever time of dayyou're listening to this episode and
I will talk to you guys next time
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