April 1, 2024 • 47 mins
Getting to the top if a feat in of itself... but staying on top is even harder. In this episode, Wade and Shane discuss Trex's dominance, the competitive challenges it contends with, and its unprecedented successes. They explore the concept of brand recognition, discussing how brands like Kleenex, Coca-Cola, and Skidoo have come to define their respective product categories, just as Trex has done within the decking industry.
The increasing variety among decking products presents opportunities for different brands to shine, each offering unique solutions that appeal to diverse customers. Endearing brands like Eva-Last, Millboard, and Deckorators are recognized for their avant-garde products that have redefined deck-building.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
The ultimate deck podcast need a
show about outdoor living this is where it's at with your
host shane chapman and way lauren thank you.
Music.
For tuning in now let the show begin yeah the
ultimate deck podcast let's go welcome back everybody waiting shane for the
ultimate deck podcast here on thursday again i don't know this is probably gonna
(00:23):
get posted on a monday though so that's gonna be very little sense that'll be
strange uh leading it so we were just talking talking off air about home shows.
We do this all the time. We should actually just record everything all the time.
Oh boy. That's canceled for sure.
Whatever. We would get canceled if we let the things that are in our minds make
it onto recording somewhere.
That's like we were recently at the Matt Rife show, a comedy show,
(00:47):
and they were like, they were incredibly strict.
Everywhere they were reminding you, keep your phones away in your pocket.
You'll get hauled out of here. If your phone leaves your pocket,
there will not be a warning. you will be asked to leave immediately.
You'll be escorted out. No phones.
And then when Rife finally came on stage, he gave the why to that. He's like.
Didn't he give it like partway through? He had given the series of jokes of
(01:10):
why he wanted to bring that one word back.
Yeah, maybe. And this is why we can't have phones because all you.
Somebody will post up there and run a context. Yeah. And then I get canceled.
So. We were just talking about home shows real quick. That's not what this episode
is about, but we always shoot the shit first.
Yeah. So we're shooting shit about home shows. and how much we enjoy them personally.
You and I like being at them. I really do. We've got some staff members that
(01:34):
are like, they don't really, they're not crazy about them. Nope.
But they have to work them because that's who the customers are going to see
when they come in the store. Right. And so.
And for us, especially these shows, this is the kickoff to the season.
We've been hanging around all winter, like doing other shit.
But now's your chance to actually start making money for one,
(01:54):
but actually is like talk to to customers and homeowners and help solve problems. Good prospecting.
Like it's a fun time of year in my opinion. But you absolutely get into home
shows what you put in because we were also just talking about some people go
there with a shitty attitude and there's like, I don't want to be here. This is stupid.
I just, I'm just here because I have to be here. And it's like,
well, with that attitude, you might as well just not be.
(02:14):
You don't have to be here. Yeah. If you hate it here, go be happy somewhere else.
Because you could take that money and you could invest it into your customers a different way. Yeah.
And so if you're just there because your competitor is there,
then that's the wrong use of your money.
Right. I know that, I believe it's like, I don't know if it's Gary Vee,
(02:38):
but somebody in the marketing world that talks all the time about like, I think it's Gary Vee.
It's like, find the thing, if you don't like, if you hate being on camera,
for one, try to, try to work through that.
But if you just aren't good at it, if you're just not good at speaking in front
of camera, but you're really good at writing, then double down on writing.
Write blogs, write articles, write newspaper stuff, write magazine stuff.
(02:59):
If that's your, what you're good at, do that. Lean into that.
So same story here. If you hate trade shows, trust me, if your attitude is that
you hate trade shows, that's coming across and it's not going to be as effective
for you as it should be anyway.
People already know that. So just don't do them. They can tell.
Like I remember that one year we sat across from a couple of dudes and I don't
know, they were selling houseboat tours or something.
(03:21):
Oh my goodness. And they just like, I swear to God, they didn't get off their
phones the entire weekend.
Phones, they didn't get off their chairs. Right. Sitting in a chair,
staring at the phone the whole weekend.
Didn't look up to a single customer that was like even looking at shit that
was sitting on on their little table stand, didn't like engage with anybody.
And then Sunday rolls around. You know for sure how that like debrief went, right?
(03:43):
Yeah. It'll cost us like four grand. And what a waste. We didn't get a single
lead on there. The show was terrible. I remember we asked them, how was the show?
Well, it sucks. You don't get any of these things.
You don't say. I saw people stopping at your booth all freaking week.
I should show you how unapproachable you are. Yeah. Here's the video of you.
(04:05):
And I, like, I remember another place I was like, I don't want to be specific
to call them out, but I remember another place where it's like their booth is a bit bigger.
They'd obviously cared enough to go beyond just the bare minimum.
But again, the guys are sitting on chairs, chatting away, not looking or talking
to anybody that's coming by and it's just like, why bother? Why bother?
So there's, it's weird, man. Yeah. Like, and on the other aspect,
(04:27):
I also don't like the guys that are standing half in the aisle and be like,
hey, need a fridge? Want a fridge?
No, I don't need a fridge. Why not now? Never say never. Someday you're going to need a fridge.
Probably breaks down tonight. That's like. Fridge can break down.
You should buy this one just in case. I don't want to be cat called either.
Get out of here. Be approachable.
And then when somebody wants to talk to you, be engaged and helpful. Yeah. Simple.
(04:50):
Frick. Well. Corey says, couldn't agree more. Love the shows.
Hate the before and after. Yeah. Nobody likes the setup and the takedown,
especially the takedown because the shows generally try to like stage the setup.
So they have multiple days and they move people in at different times and you
can get in a little bit easier and kind of go at your own pace.
Getting all those things is a, is a tire fire. I try like.
(05:12):
It's a tire fire. I'm getting pretty close to throwing F-bombs on this podcast.
I've resisted for like four and a half years, but there's been a few recently
that's like, it's getting closer to the tip of my tongue. It just came out there.
It's not, it's not a great experience trying to get other shows.
We just did it in Homestyles and it's like, the show closes at five and at 4.30,
there's shit banging around. People are grabbing their stuff to pack up.
(05:34):
Same dickheads that stand up in the plane before it's time to roll in. It's like, why?
Do you really think that that half packing up for the last half hour is actually helping you?
Like it's not helping you yeah because you
still have to carry all that stuff out i don't get it man and
then the people are then the show organizers are on the pa
system being like if you had one pa system right you
(05:56):
listen to the last podcast you'll understand that joke but they're on the thing
being like vendors please remind her not to start packing up before five o'clock
it's like don't you can all don't go on the pa system running you can hear the
banners closing it's like Like some dude like goes to close his roll-up banner,
but it slips and it's like, bang.
And you're like, that banner's done.
(06:16):
But then five o'clock does hit and the overhead doors roll up and it's a mad
scramble to who can get their cube van backed up to the door first.
You know what we're going to do? And then second, third, fourth,
and it's packed there. It's just like, it's just.
I told Mikaela and the Saskatoon team that when this one closes in Saskatoon,
we're going to, we're going to sports on tap for wings.
(06:37):
100%. We're going to go do that for an hour. Go for dinner.
Kill that first hour and a half because you're going to do nothing but,
you're going to pack up what's at your booth and you're going to stand around
waiting for your chance to get to the door anyway. Yep.
Just go for supper. Let the small people clear out.
The guys that are selling the, like the doctor hose and the candies and the
chairs and all that stuff, let them out.
And let the guys, the rental company roll up the carpets and stuff too.
(07:00):
Yeah. Because for a while they're like, don't put anything on the carpets because
they're going to be rolling them up. Yep.
Let that crap clear out a bit. I think it's going to be an overall fantastic
experience on this one, this Gardenscapes. I think it's going to be great. It's good.
I know there was a time like in Regina, you don't have to get out that same
day. You can get out the next day. And that's fantastic.
Yep. Because we've done that plenty of times. We go back the next day and the place is empty.
(07:21):
Like 95% of people are out. So good. Your booth's sitting there in the middle of the ocean by itself.
And you back your trailer right up to it and just like.
That's totally the way to go. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. So anyways, that's that.
Who's in here? Who does home shows? What do you think? You like the home shows?
I'm not talking going to trade shows for your own learning. I'm talking about
you have a booth at a home show and is it helpful for your customers?
(07:44):
Tis the season. It's a way to stay on top.
I was just like, you're all rearranging words there to like segue that.
Yeah. It's your second language. So I'll take care of some of them. Yeah.
Today's topic is, it's hard to stay on top.
So we're going to go through, like there's no formal agenda to this one,
but we're, it's, it's an interesting time right now in the decking industry. There's a lot going on.
(08:10):
And we're talking, we wanted to talk a little bit about like,
it's hard to be the guy that's number one, that everybody's chasing,
that everybody's trying to knock down.
And it feels like a very, like the C's are getting a little rougher in the industry
of the decking stuff right now.
Absolutely. And there's not a clear number one. I know that on paper there can
be a clear number one, obviously tracks, but.
(08:32):
In reality, it's not like it was. There's a lot of players coming into this market.
There's a lot of people clawing at their hind tail and like,
as opposed to their foretail.
You don't want to claw at the foretail.
I don't know of a single creature that has a foretail. Pretty serious reaction
if you start clawing at the foretail.
Hind quarters, maybe I was trying to say.
(08:54):
Quickly, Scott from Fortress says, I love the shows on TC Decks.
I did my first one last year and didn't seem worth it to me.
Yeah, sitting on his phone the whole time. Did you take your hammock?
Was your hammock in your booth?
Certainly it's probably a little bit like there's good shows and bad shows too.
Like I know that we always say like Regina Spring Home Show is a really well run show.
It's like, it's always really good. There's other shows that maybe don't quite
(09:17):
have the crowd and stuff too. So it depends on the show. And maybe it's regional too.
I think that the Saskatoon shows could be much stronger.
I think that they could blend those two shows into one and I think it would
be a bag and flat from day one. Combine those shows.
Have one mega show. Yeah, but they couldn't, then they can't compete with each other.
So I went to our local homes, just, I went to our local homes,
(09:38):
home show just to see, and there was at least seven or eight deck builders in it. Oh, wow. Yeah.
So that makes a difference too. Like in the shows here, like Saskatoon,
there's for sure more builders have partaken that. I, that's not fair to say anymore.
More deck builders maybe, but in Regina, there's less deck builder,
building contractors, but tons of landscapers, it seems.
(09:58):
Yes. Who may do some decks. Yeah. Right there. But yeah. Anyway, that's not the topic.
The topic is, where do you want to go with this first?
I feel like it's an easy example to talk about Trex and the composite deck industry.
Yeah, we might as well. I think everybody would be very familiar with that.
Yeah. And so Trex is obviously the most powerful brand in maintenance,
(10:20):
potentially even in outdoor living, period.
But certainly within composite decking. Composite decking. Yeah. Yeah.
Trex is really synonymous with outdoor, like carefree outdoor living, like maintenance free,
enjoy your backyard, outdoor living, which is crazy because I think even people
that aren't in the, in, in, they're not building a deck today still are aware of that brand.
(10:44):
How many other product categories can you say that when people aren't even currently
purchasing or shopping within that category still recognize your brand?
Like you'd probably be hard pressed for most people to, to tell you a brand
of like paver or or fence when they're not in the middle of doing the research.
But most people could probably name Trex even if they're not currently or have ever built a deck. Yeah.
(11:04):
Like that's how powerful that brand is. Maybe the only one that I can think
of is like in the car industry.
So somebody could name off like a couple of manufacturers.
Sure. Whether you're in the industry or market for a car or not. Yeah.
But even in that, I don't know that there's one brand of car that is so much
more powerful than all the competitors. You know, if you were to go to a group
(11:29):
of people and be like, name, name all the composite decking brands that you've heard of.
It's like, most people probably be like Trex and like, that's it.
That's probably it. Just Trex. Yep.
Cars, they'd be like, oh, Ford, Chevy, Mazda, Toyota. Like they'd be on and on and on. Yep.
But anyway, that's a tough spot to be in because you're the one that everybody's chasing.
(11:51):
Yep. And so not only from an external competitive circumstance is that difficult
because everybody's trying to
chase you, but also from your own internal corporate culture and mental,
because like how you think about your own business is affected when you're so far number one.
Because we've seen this play out nearly in every industry in the world that
(12:16):
the number one at some point falls. Always.
It is nearly impossible to stay on top forever.
I mean, Trex has done it for two decades now, which is super impressive.
Yeah. But I feel like there's cracks. Yeah. You know what I mean?
And this is not to say their brand is on top for sure.
(12:37):
And like, unfortunately, this isn't, this isn't meant to be a knock on Trex podcast.
Like this isn't, this isn't anti-Trex. It's actually a giant compliment to say
like, this is how good they've been or are.
It's not, but you're in number one, so you get a podcast about you.
Yeah. And then, but also, so people are going to come for you and here's,
(12:58):
and they're coming and here's what they're, here's why. Yeah.
And so in this specific industry, I would say that like in the,
for the homeowner, in the general public,
I would say that Trex for sure is still like undeniably the most well-known
brand and like that's what people, it, it is. Yeah, it's not even close actually.
It's still like we go to our trade shows, the home show that we just worked
(13:21):
in Saskatoon, Home Styles. Yeah.
And at least 50 people said to me that they wanted a Trex deck.
Yeah. So the brand is completely synonymous with the category.
They have achieved what only a few brands have done out there.
Kleenex. Kleenex. Coke. Sure.
Skidoo. Skidoo. There's just sometimes products that brands become so powerful
in the category that they become the brand of the category.
(13:43):
I have a funny story about Skidoo. Sure. So my girlfriend wanted to get her
snow machine fixed, but she called it a Skidoo to me.
It was like, I need to get my Skidoo tuned up. And I was like, oh, okay. Is it like...
I didn't think to ask if that was the brand. I just assumed that that was the brand. Yeah.
(14:03):
So I lined it all up to have it looked at in Regina. She was in Saskatoon.
Her snow machine was in Oxbow or something.
Anyway, so it was traveling through Regina. So I was like, well,
I'll line it up with a Skidoo dealer here and we'll drop it off and get it looked up.
Yeah. And so I dropped it off and left her machine.
And as I pulled up with the Arctic cat to the a Skidoo dealership,
(14:28):
I called and was like, is this actually who we should be taking this to?
Or do you want to take this to an Arctic Cat dealership? And she was like,
well, Skidoo, Skidoo's a Skidoo.
And I was like, it's not like you wouldn't take your Dodge truck to the Ford
dealership to be repaired. You would take it to the Dodge dealership. Yeah.
But anyways, that's, that's exactly it. It was like brand was so strong that
that's just what she calls it. It was a Skidoo.
(14:49):
And I was like, it's not, it's an Arctic Cat. Yeah. Not to go down.
I don't know why I preface that with that that sometimes not to go down and
then i do anyway you did anyways but what's that game is
it called spike ball that's what it's called yep so spike ball that's a
fun game i've never played it but i believe it would be very fun i've never
played you should do it well you don't drink anymore but if you did you could
(15:11):
get a little bit carried away and all of a sudden you're like diving and belly
flopping all over the sand like that little wee inhibition that like goes away
with three or four drinks like you'll never have that again yeah you'll be like i might hurt myself.
Yeah, sounds safe. That's silly.
But I listened to a podcast, I think it was one time, or maybe it was a book.
(15:32):
I think it was a podcast about Spikeball and how that whole brand and sports,
whatever, came to be and evolved and whatever else.
And I remember that there was a portion of their story in their history that their intention was to.
They weren't only trying to grow the brand of what they did.
They were trying to create a sport and a,
like a league around it to be, to, because that's how they thought they would
(15:53):
make it grow into a worldwide phenomenon, I guess, or, or respected sport was
to become like they were trying to invent a sport as well as a product, right?
Yep. It wasn't like they were releasing a new type of football to play football
with. They were releasing the product and the sport.
Yep. And they thought that the way to do that was to create a league that was
going to be like worldwide.
(16:14):
Regardless, what they wanted to call the league, was, it was a long time ago,
so I'm for sure going to have like not complete accurate details here,
but let's say they wanted to call it like the National Spikeball League or something, right?
And their brand lawyers would come up and be like, you can't do that.
And they're like, why not? That's what we call, that was the name of the product and the sport.
So it was a spikeball net that you played spikeball with.
(16:37):
Yeah. And they're like, you can't do that because what happens is if you use,
if your brand becomes too big and too more, too well known and it becomes synonymous
with the sport itself, then you will lose your trademark.
You lose your ability to own that name because, oh, I can't remember all the
details, but it's kind of like how nobody can, nobody can trademark basketball.
(16:59):
Yeah. If it's a, there's something about this. So we actually,
we're doing some trademark stuff ourselves and I've, and I've talked to the,
our lawyers about it and that's.
That's true. You're not allowed to, you're not allowed to trademark something
that is like just so common.
Right. If it's like the word deck, you can't trademark deck.
(17:19):
You can't trademark one-stop shop because it like, it doesn't, it's too common.
Yeah. It becomes part of the cultural language and you can't own that. Yeah.
So that's why they had to, they basically had to rename the sport to netball.
Okay. And so the league is called whatever, the International Netball Association
or whatever it's called.
Okay. But it was like, they had to delineate the product branding from the sport
(17:42):
branding or else they were going to lose it, lose their trademark on like ball.
So I don't know where we're going with that. It's just like,
we talked about how like strong these brands can be.
And it's like, you also in the category gets like, it becomes part of the language
and it's like, but anyway, so what I'm saying is with the general public,
I feel like Trex is still really, really strong.
(18:03):
Nobody's out marketing Trex in the general space. TimberTech,
maybe like close, but I think still a distant second as far as brand awareness goes. I think so too.
But in the realm of the contractor world and within the industry,
there's been some changes happening there. Absolutely.
So I think you saw UFP make a big push with decorators. Yep.
I believe that you had tons and tons of guys who used to be Trax guys or TimberTech
(18:27):
guys move towards decorators. Why?
Well, I think for one, the product was It was innovative, solved some problems
that maybe the other traditional wood plastic composites had.
Yeah. So they came up with a really great product.
Step number one. Yes. And step number two is that they've made a lot of effort
of like catering and marketing directly to the contractors more than the general public.
(18:50):
So now you had like great product aligned with customer base that felt like
you were taking care of them, like you're paying attention. Yeah.
And so that, that changed, that
changed the game a little bit within the contractor world. I feel like.
That shift is starting to happen again a little bit. And I feel like contractors
are becoming a little bit less brand loyal, potentially.
(19:12):
Yeah, it certainly seems like they're, it certainly seems like they want to
continue to work with good products.
But any of the builders or any of the contractors that are really good and using
good products and making lots
of money and doing big jobs, they don't need taken care of as much, right?
(19:36):
They don't need, like if the product is good enough that they're able to put
out a great product, then they make enough money that they don't need you to
buy them supper. They can buy their own supper. Yeah.
And so like it's a little bit tricky in that,
everybody likes to be taken care of, but at the same time, everybody likes to
(19:56):
be able able to take care of themselves as well, right? They like to be able
to say, yeah, yeah, you know what?
Like I build these great products and I make good money at it and I can take
care of my own team and I can take care of my own expenses. I don't need you to look after me.
Right. And so I think there's a move right now that's happening with contractors
(20:16):
that are, that are pushing that way.
Right. There's a lot of guys that are like, I'm going to be the big dog all by myself. Yeah.
But I also think too that the decorators, when when it came up with the voyage
line had some innovations within that, that the industry hadn't really seen for a few years. Yes.
So for the longest time, like generation one comps, it was generation one comps.
(20:38):
It, it, it did what it did.
Then when they came up with capped composite decking, it was like,
that was a innovation that people started to take notice of because it brought
additional value and benefit to the customer of like, Hey, this stuff won't
fade and stain and the color is more vibrant and whatever else.
Yeah. And we can provide a longer warranty with it now and et cetera.
Yeah. So it was like a big change, But the industry kind of all went there fairly
quickly. Like they all kind of jumped on board with that.
(21:00):
And then there was, I would say arguably, it wasn't really a whole lot of innovation,
from the time that released until, maybe until the decorators product came on.
And all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, what's the problem with composite decking?
Well, like it expands and contracts quite a bit. So it's like not ideal on your
joints and stuff. It looks kind of crappy over time. It's typically very slippery.
(21:21):
So decorators came up with a product where it's like, they were the only ones
who'd really figured out, the only one on a, on a massively distributed scale
that figured out the expansion contraction thing. It's like now the board's stable.
It's like, okay, well now for the contractors who care about the craftsmanship
of their work, that matters quite a bit. It does.
And the traction's fricking incredible and nobody else can hardly touch it.
Yep. It's like, okay, so they've really differentiated themselves with the product.
(21:44):
So now you've piqued the interest of the influencers who are trying to like,
who care about the craft and want to do the best and use the best and everything else.
Now it's like, oh, what's this? but as guys and gals,
Are keen to that now that they're like, they're, they want to use the best, whatever.
They're also more willing to not just be as brand loyal because they want to
(22:05):
use the latest and greatest.
So something else new comes along, their head turns a little bit.
And maybe in the past it wouldn't have.
It was like, no, no, I'm a Trex contractor and I feel taken care of and they're the best board.
And it's like now, now it's a lot harder to me, in my opinion today to say who
makes the next, the best deck board out there today.
10 years ago, you're going to say Trex.
Two, three years ago, you might've said said decorators and i feel like that's
(22:27):
a hard question to answer again now we've seen like seen decorators for sure
lose their edge at least in our market we've seen them we see we have like really
not great experiences in our market i'll leave it at that.
Avalas has now come out they're catching some attention because they're doing
some things differently innovative products they're doing and so yeah i think
(22:50):
to your point where it was like Like guys used to be so loyal that they would never change.
I think that they found, I think they found out they were maybe making mistakes.
They were maybe leaving some quality products on the table by not looking around.
Yeah. And now all of a sudden it's like, well, you know what?
Like Trex isn't going to look after me if there's like a really big problem later on.
(23:13):
They say they will, but ultimately that's all hidden behind.
And that's not just a knock at Trex. It's every brand in the whole world.
Yeah. writes a bunch of legal so they don't have to warranty anything they like
they say they have a warranty but it's like it's hard to get that warranty actually
to work for you yeah and so,
as a builder you need to just you need to make sure that
you're using products that are good for you and
(23:36):
the first time you step out and look at a
new product that's the hardest one and then after that you're like oh
wow i use that decorator stuff that was really fantastic fantastic you
know what like i've always used regal rail they're also
huge brand and and i always did that but now like
i don't know vista is making cable like maybe maybe
i could just work with vista as well doesn't mean i have to stop working
(23:58):
with regal but i'm doing myself a disservice and my customers a disservice by
not opening my eyes a little bit looking around yeah so yeah but at your i haven't
mentioned millboard yet so millboard comes in too so So now you've got these, let's say Trex.
Decorators, Everlast, Millboard, I would say maybe the four that are like making
(24:20):
the biggest splash in the contractor community right now. Yeah.
And so they're all differentiated a bit. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Like when you're asking somebody, it's like, what's the difference between
Trex and Fibron and TimberTech?
Like you gotta, you gotta start getting into the nitty gritty to be like,
well, this one technically is this much better because of this.
And it's like, ah, that's debatable. Yeah.
They just have their own ways of doing it. But now it's like,
(24:41):
well, you've got what Trex is known for and you've got Millboard,
which is a completely different product, comes in in different dimensions,
looks different, has a different cap, different properties, different installation
methods, different everything.
Yep. So it's like, if you like that, great. You've got Evelast,
which is like, is really making a splash in the photo print world.
So if you're looking for something super realistic to, to hardwood decking,
(25:02):
it's like, well, that looks really good.
You've got, who else did I say? Decorators. You've got their unique look and
it's like their big thing is like traction, traction, traction,
and, and expansion contraction with meal board can also make claim that too. So it's like.
Yeah. Yeah, and they're manufactured different, right? They're like,
it's a whole strand technology and it's a like made with lime.
(25:23):
So like they're actually, the core of their board is different.
They've done some different stuff. So which one's best?
It's like, that's hard to answer now. Yeah, they're all pretty good.
Depends on what you value the most. Do you want something that looks the most realistic?
Okay, well, that's a wash between Millboard and Everlast, Pioneer,
in my opinion, because, and I believe that the nod goes to Millboard as to what's
(25:44):
going to fool somebody into thinking it's real wood.
That one because the Pioneer looks absolutely beautiful and gorgeous and it's
a picture of real wood. So clearly it looks realistic.
However, it, it, in a way it kind of looks like engineered, like not engineered,
but like laminate flooring where it's like, it's a picture of real wood.
It's not, it's not real wood.
(26:04):
Which when we've started to talk about this, we've, we're talking lots more
about how designers are actually going inside and outside of the house now too.
And so if you're able to find a deck board board that looks exactly like a laminate
or so similar to the laminate you're using and you want to extend that look,
well then now Everlast is the best board because it matches your house the best. Yeah.
(26:25):
It's not the best board because it doesn't expand and contract.
It's the best board for you and as a contractor, that becomes the best board for your client.
Yeah. Now you, so. And so it's easy for them to turn heads because it's different.
And I understand that Zuri's been out for a long time and it's done that.
Yeah. And I understand that for a, for a moment in time, Murite was out at one point.
(26:45):
It's not the first photo print decking available, but it's the first one in
a while, and it's the first one that's maybe like.
Really gotten the attention of the contractor community. Like Zuri just kind
of almost seems like it's just kind of like, it's okay with its niche of very
specific regional markets and like, it just doesn't seem to have had the, has a mass appeal.
(27:08):
And didn't, wasn't the cap just slightly different, right? It didn't have that
acrylic cap on top of it. So it did scratch a little bit easier.
And so there was some improvements on what Zuri's done. TC Dex says,
great insight. Very much agree with your perspectives.
I've thought the same thing. I hated how Trex bullied you into being brand loyal.
So did a certain TimberTech rep seems like they're starting to back off.
So I think they got a little bit, but the other thing I wanted to say to this
(27:30):
is like, because they're doing things a little bit differently.
It's just, it's interesting.
It's catching people's attention. Is somebody going to switch to Avalast or
switch to Millboard? Maybe not, but they're at least looking at it and being
like, is this, does this make sense for me?
And what Trex is, Trex is releasing new boards too.
Yeah. But it's, but it's not as exciting. It doesn't catch your attention much
because it's like, well, it's the same Trex board, just a new finish to it.
(27:52):
You finish on top i get that the signature
line is technically a different capping on it
whatever too but it's still it's the same core there's nothing
like visually it looks nicer yeah it
is the most durable tracks board that they've released sure but it's just
like it's hard to get as excited about it because it's
just not it still feels like just another
(28:13):
the other thing that happens and there's like
points about this later on in in the podcast
but what happens when they start to
price this product is they only look internally so
like trex has now released this new line and they're
like well this is a really great product and it's really valuable and it's
for sure the best board we've released signature is like the greatest product
(28:35):
we have so now we have to price that accordingly in our lineup and what happens
is they they price that accordingly in their lineup but then they've lost touch
with that with where that pricing needs to be in market Because they don't pay
attention to what's happening around them.
They're all like, when you're on the top, you, you look internally because you're
(28:55):
like, I'm, we're the best. I'm the best.
This is what we're doing is the best.
And so the only way to be better is to beat ourselves.
And so you spend all this time looking at like yourself internally.
Yeah. And you lose touch with what's happening outside of the world.
So you have a photo print board that's being sold by Trex that is 20.
(29:17):
30, 40 times percent, sorry, percent, not times, percent higher than what other
photo print boards are in market.
And it's like, well, is your board 30% better than this board? Nope.
There's no chance it is.
So it's dangerous on top for that reason, right? Yeah.
(29:40):
You lose some perspective. Yeah. I think when you're on top,
not just Trex, but for anybody, it's you lose your desire to innovate a little
bit because you're like, well, we have the best product. We don't have to innovate anymore.
But the problem for everybody trying to catch up to you is that they're absolutely
innovating to try to do something better. Right.
Because you're not going to out-market Trex. As a small guy coming up,
you're not going to be like, we're just going to spend more money and we're
(30:02):
gonna like we're gonna we're gonna buy a piece of the customer consumer's mind yeah,
impossibly expensive that right now is can't do that right now you can't you
have to open eyes with the product first and then hopefully you can spend to
get there like you just have to have a different strategy so it's it's tough
but for the guy on top it's like the i mean,
i'm not suggesting that the writing's on the wall by any means but if you look
(30:25):
at some industries industries where people forgot to innovate or resisted innovation,
resisted what customers were looking for.
Blackberry being a very famous example. It's like, man, they hung on to that keyboard forever.
It actually buried them. Yeah. Because they were like, no, no,
they got too, too, what do they want to call it?
Romanticized. Too romantic with the past. Yeah. That's what made them,
(30:48):
that's what got them to where they were.
So they just kept trying to force it down people's throats and the market was
saying, no, no, no, like we're okay.
We don't want keyboards. This one's way cooler over here. Yeah.
Let's move away. And they push
back, push back, push back to the point and it buried them in the end.
So it's like. Which is too bad. That's tough because when you're on top and
all you see is like how great you are and like all the headlines,
you're reading your own headlines and it's just all rosy news.
(31:10):
And it's like, it's easy to sit back and be like, okay, maintain status quo.
Yeah. Make minor tweaks.
But sometimes the whole category is changing around you. And if you don't continue
to lead on the innovation front, then you at some point get left behind.
Yep. And I like the quote. I brought it on here that it's better to put yourself
out of business and have somebody else do it for you. Yes. So it's like.
(31:32):
Sometimes it's scary to release a new category because it's like,
it's going to cannibalize what we already do. And it's going to take a business
right here. It's like, yeah, but if you don't do it, somebody else will.
That's right. You don't get to, you don't get to have a, I'm sorry,
but the world moves fast. You don't get to have a product that's just number one forever.
Yeah. Somebody, especially in an industry that's on trend and like growing as
much as this, there's lots of people that want a piece of your pie.
(31:53):
Yeah. And everybody's watching and the people that are watching are homeowners,
architects, designers, contractors, right? Right? It's not just one group of people.
It's like, because you're attached to the house or you're in the housing industry,
there's lots of people that are watching and lots of people that are looking
(32:13):
for new products and the next greatest thing.
So you don't even, you don't have to appeal to just contractors or just homeowners.
You have a whole industry that you have to appeal to.
Yep. because landscapers are going to start looking at the products that they're pairing with.
(32:34):
And, you know, like commercial buildings are looking at, at colors and products
that they're matching to or using with.
It's just like, it is massive. Yeah.
And everyone's coming. Yeah. And I would say that like, this is going to sound
maybe a little bit egotistical, but I believe that in our market,
we're, we're the top dog as far as if you're going to shop for.
(32:57):
Materials to build a deck, there's nobody that does it better than us.
We take advantage of the fact that we're in a smaller market,
that it doesn't even make sense for a store like this to exist here,
but we did it. And so we have an advantage that way.
Like we're competing against traditional lumbiards and box stores who don't.
Won't ever probably put as much effort into the outdoor living space as we do.
Cause it's just a portion of their business, but there's no denying the fact
(33:18):
that like, since we've come along, they've tried a lot harder.
They're, they're, they're mimicking things that we do. Certainly.
And so if we don't continue to try to reinvent ourselves and to improve ourselves
all the time, then at some point we get left in the dark.
Our competitive advantage, the reason that we, that people shop with us is going
to be, is going to completely, or like over time it'll dwindle.
(33:39):
Yeah. Like you have a big advantage. So it's really obvious why people should shop with you.
And as that, as people carve away at that, it's like, if it becomes too small,
then it's just more convenient to shop somewhere else maybe. Yep.
So we've got to continuously do things to maintain that gap. That's right.
And if we don't, we're in trouble too. We don't. So.
Yeah. That's all we're saying. You just gotta, yeah. It's just like,
(34:00):
it's hard to stay on top and you have to like, I think one of the,
one of the things that I think is a, the largest,
factor, the largest contributing factor to falling off of the top is that you
don't you don't look at what's happening around you enough,
you just don't pay attention to what everyone else is doing yeah
and it gets a little bit crazy so like different railing companies and trex
(34:24):
and trex again with their aluminum railing like when they brought it out they're
just like this is the greatest thing it's like welded panels and it goes together
so fast and they were so excited about it and it was just like.
That's the same as what Fortress is. Compared to our own composite railing.
Compared to your own composite rail, it's so much less money.
It's only $75 a lineal foot and our composite rail is 110 and it's just like,
(34:49):
yeah, but everybody else is doing aluminum rail for 45.
So now what? Now, how do I justify yours? It's like, well, it goes together faster.
Fortress goes together pretty fast. Yeah, not as faster than yours.
Faster than your composite, right?
Yeah. And so it's always, it's always tricky to make sure that you're like really
(35:09):
aware of what's happening outside of your organization. Yeah.
Even if you're a contractor and you're like the best contractor and you're killing
it in landscape and it's like, what are your competitors doing right now?
Why are you losing jobs? jobs and and if
you are losing jobs that you are aware of it's like
find out why that happened and then start to
(35:29):
fix that because that's the first sign that
it's all coming down yeah right yeah from
the contractor perspective you just got to continuously reinvent yourself as
well because 10 years ago it was probably good enough just to be the composite
deck guy yeah you're the guy who does composite decks whenever else is doing
wood that's how you could set yourself apart yep but But as more and more people
start to also install composite decks. And specialize in it.
(35:54):
It's like, what sets you apart anymore?
It's like nothing. So if you don't continue to move forward,
innovate, reinvent yourself, then you just get lost in the crowd.
Yeah. And so then all of a sudden maybe you need to be the guy who like always
picture frames his deck and always uses a, always skirts his decks in or builds
the stairs a certain way just to maintain being ahead of the next guy.
(36:14):
But then everybody else starts to do that too.
And then so now when you get your next, well Well, now I'm going to start tackling the whole backyard.
So that makes it easier for the customer or whatever. Or it comes with a design.
It's just like a really, really small 3D design at the start.
For a while, like five years ago, if you did a 3D design, nobody else is doing
it. It's like, that was a really...
Big deal. Big differentiator for you is to be like, oh, well,
I'm going to work with this guy because I already know what it's going to look like at the end.
(36:36):
Yeah. I don't have to like take a chance. There's less risk in it for me.
Yeah. The more risk you can remove from interaction with the customer,
the higher chance you have of closing that deal.
Correct. So at that one point that helped, but that is so accessible now to anybody.
Yeah. That everybody can do that. Yeah. So now what's it going to be?
Now, how are you going to set yourself apart? Yeah. So you got to continue to grow.
Yeah. Put yourself out of business before somebody else does it for you.
(36:56):
Put yourself out of business. Yeah. So any more to talk about on that or have we beat this horse?
Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Was there anything on there?
You get too comfortable.
So that happens. We did talk about that. Lose touch with the why.
So that's important. I think for us, we're constantly trying to answer the why, why are customers here?
Why, like, why do they talk to us? Right. And as long as we,
(37:18):
as long as you listen to that customer and you listen to what they're actually asking you. Yeah.
Don't go like, don't try to fix a problem that isn't even a problem.
It's like, maybe it's a problem for you.
Yeah. We don't have a $15 a foot board. Well, that's not a problem in the industry.
Nobody was asking for that.
Everybody's asking for less expensive boards because of carbon tax and the cost
(37:39):
of food and the whatever interest rates are up.
I was like, you know what we should do in this really tough economical time?
We should create the most expensive board that's ever existed. Yeah. That's silly.
Certainly, maybe that works. I love it too. Maybe that works for some of your
customers, but it is so small.
It is over the last few years, there's been a bit of an arms race to who can
(38:03):
release the best, bestest looking, bestest performing high-end deck board out there.
And all it's done is drive caught. Like you look at,
you know, check signature, you look at Everlast Pioneer, you look at anybody's
high-end board and they're expensive.
Like we're now into the, like in Canadian dollars, we're into the 12, 13, $14, 15, 16.
(38:27):
You start talking about like, that's 30, that's 33, $35 a square foot for just a deck board. Yeah.
We're only probably six years removed from the highest cost boards being in
the six to $7 range, Canadian. I was at a doubled it.
Products are better, but. A site this morning, and we were talking about this
(38:51):
lady has a deck that's, she's talking about changing to a ground level deck.
This is a perfect example of, example of why we've moved into hardscapes.
There's a time when you shouldn't sell someone a deck when it's six inches off
the ground, it's just going to rot fast and blah, blah, blah.
Like you can do steel framing to mitigate that, but probably the right thing to do is a patio.
And so today we were talking and And she's like, the deck that she's looking
(39:13):
at is going to be $50 a square foot.
And I was like, well, there's an opportunity for us to do a $30 a square foot
or a $35 a square foot patio.
Are you interested in that? She's like, oh, you know what? That'd be really
great. Because then I could put a pergola up here and put a privacy wall on
this side. There you go. Yeah.
Now you can help them, right? And so when the world is trying to find a less
(39:33):
expensive option for outdoor living,
they're the industry leaders right
now are like they're racing to the most
expensive product and it's like well you're not listening to
your customers you're not you're not answering the why nobody was
asking for a 33 a square foot deck board yeah that's not what they wanted so
(39:54):
yeah it can be not a bad strategy though to to just position yourself as an
industry leader or as a large brand by having the best product as well.
Maybe the intent isn't even to sell a whole bunch of that. Maybe that's not
where the bread is actually made. That's okay.
Hopefully their intent is that and they don't manufacture a bunch of it because
(40:14):
they're not going to sell a lot of it.
Yeah. Well, they like, I was just talking about this with Peregrine Landscape
at the home show earlier today.
And Tony said something that I know resonated with me because I've thought the
same thing too. He's like, I used to have a big problem with shopping with my
own wallet or selling with my own wallet.
Like selling somebody a wallet it and like I was, I'm using my own financial
position as a frame of reference as to what other people can afford.
(40:36):
And he's like, that's not the case.
There's absolutely people that would spend and not even think two seconds about
it, about spending 30 bucks a square foot in a deck because they make more money than you and I do.
Deck, board. Then they get to frame it. Then they get to put it. Sure. Doesn't matter.
There's some people that $100 a square foot and $200 a square foot doesn't.
It's the same. Yeah. It doesn't matter.
Yeah. It's like they make millions. So whether their project call costs 50 or
(40:59):
or 75,000 is like, it doesn't matter. I want what I want. That's true. I want the best. Yeah.
So there's that component, but there'll always be people with money,
but the majority of the market.
The middle class is not shopping there. That's for damn sure.
And the middle class right now is like poorer than they've ever been.
So they need that low cost option. It's tough right now.
Avalos has done a good job of releasing a game changing attention,
(41:21):
like attention grabbing high end board at a high end price.
Yep. And has simultaneously put into market a low cost composite that's going
to appeal to a lot of people because to your point, things are getting more
expensive and life's getting more expensive and there's less disposable income.
And if we just keep like, it used to be years ago, it was like,
(41:42):
what's the cost difference between treated deck and composite deck?
And it's like, well, I don't know, maybe double like between the boards themselves,
the treated deck board is going to be a buck a linear foot and the composites
are going to start at 250. So about two and a half times.
Okay. And now in 2024, the wood deck board, still about a buck,
(42:02):
like how much more than a buck a linear foot.
That's right. But now the high end composite is 13. 13.
Yep. Releasing a low-end composite that's still at 349 is like a pretty smart strategy.
Yep. And in my humble opinion, it's getting harder and harder because the gap
between low-end budget composite and high-end composite is getting harder and
(42:24):
harder to justify because it used to be that somebody's entry-level board was
three bucks on your foot and their high-end board was six bucks on your foot.
And now what we're looking at is
entry-level board is three and a half and high-end is 12 and a half. 15.
That's a big gap. Is it worth it to spend like three to four times more?
It's like, it's getting harder to say that it is. Like what's the real difference?
(42:47):
It looks nicer, clearly. Like it looks pretty good too, but this one looks more realistic.
Warranty's similar. They're both maintenance free. Yeah. This one's scalloped.
What does that mean? Well, it's got this shit in it. Does that matter?
Not like on paper. Yes. Once it's down, you'll never know it's there.
Okay. Well then it's like, it's harder to justify going up. So very hard.
(43:07):
That middle ground, like we've seen for years, I feel like that middle ground
is going to get the snot beat out of it.
But maybe. It has. Maybe it's starting to come back the other way where it's
like, so the middle ground is like, well, why would I spend any more if the
entry levels are looking this good and their price is attractive? Yeah.
Or you've got people who's like, money's not a concern. Give me the best looking
shit out there. But like, who's buying the middle?
But maybe the top end is getting so expensive that you're starting to see some
(43:30):
people are like, no, no, I want the middle.
I want the best. I want all the features of the best, but I'm,
I don't want to, that's crazy. Yeah. Do you have something in the $68 range
that gives me all the same benefits? Yeah. Yep. We do.
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that, you know, over the last few years, we have seen that.
We've seen the middle, the middle get like kind of forgotten.
(43:51):
Like all middle children do. Yeah. They just get forgotten. But I mean the high
end, what once used to be high end boards is kind of the new middle.
Yeah. Trex Transcend is the middle now because Lineage is out and Signature's out. For them.
For them it is, but the rest of the industry, it's at the, their middle is at
where everybody else's top is.
Yeah. Price point though, Decker's Voyage is their high end board,
(44:11):
but price wise on the wall, it's actually middle price point now. Right.
Because there's $12 and $14 boards out there now. Yeah. They're still sitting at eight and a half.
So it's pretty, like it's, like I said, the seas are getting a little rough in this space.
Baxter Construction says, when, when is the 24 Goldslake deck board coming out?
Like they're putting all sorts of shit in these boards now. Like I wouldn't rate it out.
(44:32):
Could be any day. There's got fiberglass sheets inside there now.
And some guys are like bamboo is better.
Bamboo is better. My deck board's the best because I put hardwood in it.
My deck board's best because I put bamboo in it. So like, it's a joke till it's not anymore.
Somebody's going to have a shimmery gold dusted deck board here at some point.
(44:53):
It's happening. Only a matter of time.
Do you remember like- And then we're going to sell it to Baxter because he's
going to install it. He'll be like, I remember asking for that. That's a real thing.
And it seems funny, but it's like- It's a, it's not even that funny because
I remember my previous life I sold, like I was the marketing,
like the product manager essentially for a telecom company that launched,
like we launched all the cell phones.
So like you'd work with, at that time I was working with Blackberry and Samsung
(45:16):
and everybody else to choose what phones our network was going to launch.
And at that time it was like, there was, there was budget phones and there was
mid tier phones and there was high end phones.
High end phone was like an iPhone, right? Or a Samsung Galaxy at that time too.
Whatever number you're on at that point. And then I remember like there was
a whole other market and I'm, I don't remember what it was called.
(45:37):
There used to be a store in Vegas in Caesar's Palace.
I think it was, it started with a V, it was called like Virtus or something.
And what they did was they took blackberries and tricked them out.
Like you'd actually have like buttons that were diamonds and shit.
Like they would, they would literally like pop the case off.
They'd read these blackberries and sell them for like $20,000.
Yeah. Diamond encrusted blackberry with gold, like just.
(46:02):
Asinine stuff. Yep. I was like, we went there with cell phones.
Yes. Not completely. It's not crazy. It's crazy to think that you're going to
gold railing at some point.
If you had gold on there, you could probably sell it in Dubai, right? Right? Yeah.
Without a doubt, there's gold railing on a deck in a place like that.
Yeah. We're just in the wrong market. That's all. Yeah.
This one has great traction because of the diamond fleck in it.
(46:25):
Hardest material in the world. And it really grips your shoes.
It's hard on your shoes. Your shoes shred off the sole of them.
Pretty funny stuff. So anyways, hopefully we didn't piss anybody off in this
podcast. I know Trax's name came up a bit because.
They're at the top. Flattery, dude. They've been crushing it for how long?
And it's just like, there's a lot of attention on them right now.
And there's a lot of competitors trying to chew away and they're making some inroads.
(46:46):
We might come back to this in three years now and be like, turns out it was
just all like, what are they? what's the saying?
All something and no sizzle. All, you know what I'm trying to say? Yeah.
The brands right now that we're like, oh, they're making a splash,
but they may not get anywhere.
Like just because they're getting a bit of attention doesn't mean that they're
all smoke, no sizzle. That's what it is.
(47:07):
So maybe it's just some of that. Like in four years from now,
we might be like, well, Trek's still number one and these other guys that were
making inroads are not anymore. So who knows? It's very possible.
Yeah. All we're saying is that it's hard
to stay on top yep see you next week hey thank you for listening to the ultimate
(47:27):
deck podcast now you know what we're about check the site come and shop ultimate
deck shops.com hit us right away for sponsorships or tell us if you want to collaborate let's.
Music.
The ultimate deck podcast need a
show about outdoor living this is where it's at with your
host shane chapman and way lauren thank you.
Music.
For tuning in now let the show begin yeah the
ultimate deck podcast let's go welcome back everybody waiting shane for the
ultimate deck podcast here on thursday again i don't know this is probably gonna
(00:23):
get posted on a monday though so that's gonna be very little sense that'll be
strange uh leading it so we were just talking talking off air about home shows.
We do this all the time. We should actually just record everything all the time.
Oh boy. That's canceled for sure.
Whatever. We would get canceled if we let the things that are in our minds make
it onto recording somewhere.
That's like we were recently at the Matt Rife show, a comedy show,
(00:47):
and they were like, they were incredibly strict.
Everywhere they were reminding you, keep your phones away in your pocket.
You'll get hauled out of here. If your phone leaves your pocket,
there will not be a warning. you will be asked to leave immediately.
You'll be escorted out. No phones.
And then when Rife finally came on stage, he gave the why to that. He's like.
Didn't he give it like partway through? He had given the series of jokes of
(01:10):
why he wanted to bring that one word back.
Yeah, maybe. And this is why we can't have phones because all you.
Somebody will post up there and run a context. Yeah. And then I get canceled.
So. We were just talking about home shows real quick. That's not what this episode
is about, but we always shoot the shit first.
Yeah. So we're shooting shit about home shows. and how much we enjoy them personally.
You and I like being at them. I really do. We've got some staff members that
(01:34):
are like, they don't really, they're not crazy about them. Nope.
But they have to work them because that's who the customers are going to see
when they come in the store. Right. And so.
And for us, especially these shows, this is the kickoff to the season.
We've been hanging around all winter, like doing other shit.
But now's your chance to actually start making money for one,
(01:54):
but actually is like talk to to customers and homeowners and help solve problems. Good prospecting.
Like it's a fun time of year in my opinion. But you absolutely get into home
shows what you put in because we were also just talking about some people go
there with a shitty attitude and there's like, I don't want to be here. This is stupid.
I just, I'm just here because I have to be here. And it's like,
well, with that attitude, you might as well just not be.
(02:14):
You don't have to be here. Yeah. If you hate it here, go be happy somewhere else.
Because you could take that money and you could invest it into your customers a different way. Yeah.
And so if you're just there because your competitor is there,
then that's the wrong use of your money.
Right. I know that, I believe it's like, I don't know if it's Gary Vee,
(02:38):
but somebody in the marketing world that talks all the time about like, I think it's Gary Vee.
It's like, find the thing, if you don't like, if you hate being on camera,
for one, try to, try to work through that.
But if you just aren't good at it, if you're just not good at speaking in front
of camera, but you're really good at writing, then double down on writing.
Write blogs, write articles, write newspaper stuff, write magazine stuff.
(02:59):
If that's your, what you're good at, do that. Lean into that.
So same story here. If you hate trade shows, trust me, if your attitude is that
you hate trade shows, that's coming across and it's not going to be as effective
for you as it should be anyway.
People already know that. So just don't do them. They can tell.
Like I remember that one year we sat across from a couple of dudes and I don't
know, they were selling houseboat tours or something.
(03:21):
Oh my goodness. And they just like, I swear to God, they didn't get off their
phones the entire weekend.
Phones, they didn't get off their chairs. Right. Sitting in a chair,
staring at the phone the whole weekend.
Didn't look up to a single customer that was like even looking at shit that
was sitting on on their little table stand, didn't like engage with anybody.
And then Sunday rolls around. You know for sure how that like debrief went, right?
(03:43):
Yeah. It'll cost us like four grand. And what a waste. We didn't get a single
lead on there. The show was terrible. I remember we asked them, how was the show?
Well, it sucks. You don't get any of these things.
You don't say. I saw people stopping at your booth all freaking week.
I should show you how unapproachable you are. Yeah. Here's the video of you.
(04:05):
And I, like, I remember another place I was like, I don't want to be specific
to call them out, but I remember another place where it's like their booth is a bit bigger.
They'd obviously cared enough to go beyond just the bare minimum.
But again, the guys are sitting on chairs, chatting away, not looking or talking
to anybody that's coming by and it's just like, why bother? Why bother?
So there's, it's weird, man. Yeah. Like, and on the other aspect,
(04:27):
I also don't like the guys that are standing half in the aisle and be like,
hey, need a fridge? Want a fridge?
No, I don't need a fridge. Why not now? Never say never. Someday you're going to need a fridge.
Probably breaks down tonight. That's like. Fridge can break down.
You should buy this one just in case. I don't want to be cat called either.
Get out of here. Be approachable.
And then when somebody wants to talk to you, be engaged and helpful. Yeah. Simple.
(04:50):
Frick. Well. Corey says, couldn't agree more. Love the shows.
Hate the before and after. Yeah. Nobody likes the setup and the takedown,
especially the takedown because the shows generally try to like stage the setup.
So they have multiple days and they move people in at different times and you
can get in a little bit easier and kind of go at your own pace.
Getting all those things is a, is a tire fire. I try like.
(05:12):
It's a tire fire. I'm getting pretty close to throwing F-bombs on this podcast.
I've resisted for like four and a half years, but there's been a few recently
that's like, it's getting closer to the tip of my tongue. It just came out there.
It's not, it's not a great experience trying to get other shows.
We just did it in Homestyles and it's like, the show closes at five and at 4.30,
there's shit banging around. People are grabbing their stuff to pack up.
(05:34):
Same dickheads that stand up in the plane before it's time to roll in. It's like, why?
Do you really think that that half packing up for the last half hour is actually helping you?
Like it's not helping you yeah because you
still have to carry all that stuff out i don't get it man and
then the people are then the show organizers are on the pa
system being like if you had one pa system right you
(05:56):
listen to the last podcast you'll understand that joke but they're on the thing
being like vendors please remind her not to start packing up before five o'clock
it's like don't you can all don't go on the pa system running you can hear the
banners closing it's like Like some dude like goes to close his roll-up banner,
but it slips and it's like, bang.
And you're like, that banner's done.
(06:16):
But then five o'clock does hit and the overhead doors roll up and it's a mad
scramble to who can get their cube van backed up to the door first.
You know what we're going to do? And then second, third, fourth,
and it's packed there. It's just like, it's just.
I told Mikaela and the Saskatoon team that when this one closes in Saskatoon,
we're going to, we're going to sports on tap for wings.
(06:37):
100%. We're going to go do that for an hour. Go for dinner.
Kill that first hour and a half because you're going to do nothing but,
you're going to pack up what's at your booth and you're going to stand around
waiting for your chance to get to the door anyway. Yep.
Just go for supper. Let the small people clear out.
The guys that are selling the, like the doctor hose and the candies and the
chairs and all that stuff, let them out.
And let the guys, the rental company roll up the carpets and stuff too.
(07:00):
Yeah. Because for a while they're like, don't put anything on the carpets because
they're going to be rolling them up. Yep.
Let that crap clear out a bit. I think it's going to be an overall fantastic
experience on this one, this Gardenscapes. I think it's going to be great. It's good.
I know there was a time like in Regina, you don't have to get out that same
day. You can get out the next day. And that's fantastic.
Yep. Because we've done that plenty of times. We go back the next day and the place is empty.
(07:21):
Like 95% of people are out. So good. Your booth's sitting there in the middle of the ocean by itself.
And you back your trailer right up to it and just like.
That's totally the way to go. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. So anyways, that's that.
Who's in here? Who does home shows? What do you think? You like the home shows?
I'm not talking going to trade shows for your own learning. I'm talking about
you have a booth at a home show and is it helpful for your customers?
(07:44):
Tis the season. It's a way to stay on top.
I was just like, you're all rearranging words there to like segue that.
Yeah. It's your second language. So I'll take care of some of them. Yeah.
Today's topic is, it's hard to stay on top.
So we're going to go through, like there's no formal agenda to this one,
but we're, it's, it's an interesting time right now in the decking industry. There's a lot going on.
(08:10):
And we're talking, we wanted to talk a little bit about like,
it's hard to be the guy that's number one, that everybody's chasing,
that everybody's trying to knock down.
And it feels like a very, like the C's are getting a little rougher in the industry
of the decking stuff right now.
Absolutely. And there's not a clear number one. I know that on paper there can
be a clear number one, obviously tracks, but.
(08:32):
In reality, it's not like it was. There's a lot of players coming into this market.
There's a lot of people clawing at their hind tail and like,
as opposed to their foretail.
You don't want to claw at the foretail.
I don't know of a single creature that has a foretail. Pretty serious reaction
if you start clawing at the foretail.
Hind quarters, maybe I was trying to say.
(08:54):
Quickly, Scott from Fortress says, I love the shows on TC Decks.
I did my first one last year and didn't seem worth it to me.
Yeah, sitting on his phone the whole time. Did you take your hammock?
Was your hammock in your booth?
Certainly it's probably a little bit like there's good shows and bad shows too.
Like I know that we always say like Regina Spring Home Show is a really well run show.
It's like, it's always really good. There's other shows that maybe don't quite
(09:17):
have the crowd and stuff too. So it depends on the show. And maybe it's regional too.
I think that the Saskatoon shows could be much stronger.
I think that they could blend those two shows into one and I think it would
be a bag and flat from day one. Combine those shows.
Have one mega show. Yeah, but they couldn't, then they can't compete with each other.
So I went to our local homes, just, I went to our local homes,
(09:38):
home show just to see, and there was at least seven or eight deck builders in it. Oh, wow. Yeah.
So that makes a difference too. Like in the shows here, like Saskatoon,
there's for sure more builders have partaken that. I, that's not fair to say anymore.
More deck builders maybe, but in Regina, there's less deck builder,
building contractors, but tons of landscapers, it seems.
(09:58):
Yes. Who may do some decks. Yeah. Right there. But yeah. Anyway, that's not the topic.
The topic is, where do you want to go with this first?
I feel like it's an easy example to talk about Trex and the composite deck industry.
Yeah, we might as well. I think everybody would be very familiar with that.
Yeah. And so Trex is obviously the most powerful brand in maintenance,
(10:20):
potentially even in outdoor living, period.
But certainly within composite decking. Composite decking. Yeah. Yeah.
Trex is really synonymous with outdoor, like carefree outdoor living, like maintenance free,
enjoy your backyard, outdoor living, which is crazy because I think even people
that aren't in the, in, in, they're not building a deck today still are aware of that brand.
(10:44):
How many other product categories can you say that when people aren't even currently
purchasing or shopping within that category still recognize your brand?
Like you'd probably be hard pressed for most people to, to tell you a brand
of like paver or or fence when they're not in the middle of doing the research.
But most people could probably name Trex even if they're not currently or have ever built a deck. Yeah.
(11:04):
Like that's how powerful that brand is. Maybe the only one that I can think
of is like in the car industry.
So somebody could name off like a couple of manufacturers.
Sure. Whether you're in the industry or market for a car or not. Yeah.
But even in that, I don't know that there's one brand of car that is so much
more powerful than all the competitors. You know, if you were to go to a group
(11:29):
of people and be like, name, name all the composite decking brands that you've heard of.
It's like, most people probably be like Trex and like, that's it.
That's probably it. Just Trex. Yep.
Cars, they'd be like, oh, Ford, Chevy, Mazda, Toyota. Like they'd be on and on and on. Yep.
But anyway, that's a tough spot to be in because you're the one that everybody's chasing.
(11:51):
Yep. And so not only from an external competitive circumstance is that difficult
because everybody's trying to
chase you, but also from your own internal corporate culture and mental,
because like how you think about your own business is affected when you're so far number one.
Because we've seen this play out nearly in every industry in the world that
(12:16):
the number one at some point falls. Always.
It is nearly impossible to stay on top forever.
I mean, Trex has done it for two decades now, which is super impressive.
Yeah. But I feel like there's cracks. Yeah. You know what I mean?
And this is not to say their brand is on top for sure.
(12:37):
And like, unfortunately, this isn't, this isn't meant to be a knock on Trex podcast.
Like this isn't, this isn't anti-Trex. It's actually a giant compliment to say
like, this is how good they've been or are.
It's not, but you're in number one, so you get a podcast about you.
Yeah. And then, but also, so people are going to come for you and here's,
(12:58):
and they're coming and here's what they're, here's why. Yeah.
And so in this specific industry, I would say that like in the,
for the homeowner, in the general public,
I would say that Trex for sure is still like undeniably the most well-known
brand and like that's what people, it, it is. Yeah, it's not even close actually.
It's still like we go to our trade shows, the home show that we just worked
(13:21):
in Saskatoon, Home Styles. Yeah.
And at least 50 people said to me that they wanted a Trex deck.
Yeah. So the brand is completely synonymous with the category.
They have achieved what only a few brands have done out there.
Kleenex. Kleenex. Coke. Sure.
Skidoo. Skidoo. There's just sometimes products that brands become so powerful
in the category that they become the brand of the category.
(13:43):
I have a funny story about Skidoo. Sure. So my girlfriend wanted to get her
snow machine fixed, but she called it a Skidoo to me.
It was like, I need to get my Skidoo tuned up. And I was like, oh, okay. Is it like...
I didn't think to ask if that was the brand. I just assumed that that was the brand. Yeah.
(14:03):
So I lined it all up to have it looked at in Regina. She was in Saskatoon.
Her snow machine was in Oxbow or something.
Anyway, so it was traveling through Regina. So I was like, well,
I'll line it up with a Skidoo dealer here and we'll drop it off and get it looked up.
Yeah. And so I dropped it off and left her machine.
And as I pulled up with the Arctic cat to the a Skidoo dealership,
(14:28):
I called and was like, is this actually who we should be taking this to?
Or do you want to take this to an Arctic Cat dealership? And she was like,
well, Skidoo, Skidoo's a Skidoo.
And I was like, it's not like you wouldn't take your Dodge truck to the Ford
dealership to be repaired. You would take it to the Dodge dealership. Yeah.
But anyways, that's, that's exactly it. It was like brand was so strong that
that's just what she calls it. It was a Skidoo.
(14:49):
And I was like, it's not, it's an Arctic Cat. Yeah. Not to go down.
I don't know why I preface that with that that sometimes not to go down and
then i do anyway you did anyways but what's that game is
it called spike ball that's what it's called yep so spike ball that's a
fun game i've never played it but i believe it would be very fun i've never
played you should do it well you don't drink anymore but if you did you could
(15:11):
get a little bit carried away and all of a sudden you're like diving and belly
flopping all over the sand like that little wee inhibition that like goes away
with three or four drinks like you'll never have that again yeah you'll be like i might hurt myself.
Yeah, sounds safe. That's silly.
But I listened to a podcast, I think it was one time, or maybe it was a book.
(15:32):
I think it was a podcast about Spikeball and how that whole brand and sports,
whatever, came to be and evolved and whatever else.
And I remember that there was a portion of their story in their history that their intention was to.
They weren't only trying to grow the brand of what they did.
They were trying to create a sport and a,
like a league around it to be, to, because that's how they thought they would
(15:53):
make it grow into a worldwide phenomenon, I guess, or, or respected sport was
to become like they were trying to invent a sport as well as a product, right?
Yep. It wasn't like they were releasing a new type of football to play football
with. They were releasing the product and the sport.
Yep. And they thought that the way to do that was to create a league that was
going to be like worldwide.
(16:14):
Regardless, what they wanted to call the league, was, it was a long time ago,
so I'm for sure going to have like not complete accurate details here,
but let's say they wanted to call it like the National Spikeball League or something, right?
And their brand lawyers would come up and be like, you can't do that.
And they're like, why not? That's what we call, that was the name of the product and the sport.
So it was a spikeball net that you played spikeball with.
(16:37):
Yeah. And they're like, you can't do that because what happens is if you use,
if your brand becomes too big and too more, too well known and it becomes synonymous
with the sport itself, then you will lose your trademark.
You lose your ability to own that name because, oh, I can't remember all the
details, but it's kind of like how nobody can, nobody can trademark basketball.
(16:59):
Yeah. If it's a, there's something about this. So we actually,
we're doing some trademark stuff ourselves and I've, and I've talked to the,
our lawyers about it and that's.
That's true. You're not allowed to, you're not allowed to trademark something
that is like just so common.
Right. If it's like the word deck, you can't trademark deck.
(17:19):
You can't trademark one-stop shop because it like, it doesn't, it's too common.
Yeah. It becomes part of the cultural language and you can't own that. Yeah.
So that's why they had to, they basically had to rename the sport to netball.
Okay. And so the league is called whatever, the International Netball Association
or whatever it's called.
Okay. But it was like, they had to delineate the product branding from the sport
(17:42):
branding or else they were going to lose it, lose their trademark on like ball.
So I don't know where we're going with that. It's just like,
we talked about how like strong these brands can be.
And it's like, you also in the category gets like, it becomes part of the language
and it's like, but anyway, so what I'm saying is with the general public,
I feel like Trex is still really, really strong.
(18:03):
Nobody's out marketing Trex in the general space. TimberTech,
maybe like close, but I think still a distant second as far as brand awareness goes. I think so too.
But in the realm of the contractor world and within the industry,
there's been some changes happening there. Absolutely.
So I think you saw UFP make a big push with decorators. Yep.
I believe that you had tons and tons of guys who used to be Trax guys or TimberTech
(18:27):
guys move towards decorators. Why?
Well, I think for one, the product was It was innovative, solved some problems
that maybe the other traditional wood plastic composites had.
Yeah. So they came up with a really great product.
Step number one. Yes. And step number two is that they've made a lot of effort
of like catering and marketing directly to the contractors more than the general public.
(18:50):
So now you had like great product aligned with customer base that felt like
you were taking care of them, like you're paying attention. Yeah.
And so that, that changed, that
changed the game a little bit within the contractor world. I feel like.
That shift is starting to happen again a little bit. And I feel like contractors
are becoming a little bit less brand loyal, potentially.
(19:12):
Yeah, it certainly seems like they're, it certainly seems like they want to
continue to work with good products.
But any of the builders or any of the contractors that are really good and using
good products and making lots
of money and doing big jobs, they don't need taken care of as much, right?
(19:36):
They don't need, like if the product is good enough that they're able to put
out a great product, then they make enough money that they don't need you to
buy them supper. They can buy their own supper. Yeah.
And so like it's a little bit tricky in that,
everybody likes to be taken care of, but at the same time, everybody likes to
(19:56):
be able able to take care of themselves as well, right? They like to be able
to say, yeah, yeah, you know what?
Like I build these great products and I make good money at it and I can take
care of my own team and I can take care of my own expenses. I don't need you to look after me.
Right. And so I think there's a move right now that's happening with contractors
(20:16):
that are, that are pushing that way.
Right. There's a lot of guys that are like, I'm going to be the big dog all by myself. Yeah.
But I also think too that the decorators, when when it came up with the voyage
line had some innovations within that, that the industry hadn't really seen for a few years. Yes.
So for the longest time, like generation one comps, it was generation one comps.
(20:38):
It, it, it did what it did.
Then when they came up with capped composite decking, it was like,
that was a innovation that people started to take notice of because it brought
additional value and benefit to the customer of like, Hey, this stuff won't
fade and stain and the color is more vibrant and whatever else.
Yeah. And we can provide a longer warranty with it now and et cetera.
Yeah. So it was like a big change, But the industry kind of all went there fairly
quickly. Like they all kind of jumped on board with that.
(21:00):
And then there was, I would say arguably, it wasn't really a whole lot of innovation,
from the time that released until, maybe until the decorators product came on.
And all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, what's the problem with composite decking?
Well, like it expands and contracts quite a bit. So it's like not ideal on your
joints and stuff. It looks kind of crappy over time. It's typically very slippery.
(21:21):
So decorators came up with a product where it's like, they were the only ones
who'd really figured out, the only one on a, on a massively distributed scale
that figured out the expansion contraction thing. It's like now the board's stable.
It's like, okay, well now for the contractors who care about the craftsmanship
of their work, that matters quite a bit. It does.
And the traction's fricking incredible and nobody else can hardly touch it.
Yep. It's like, okay, so they've really differentiated themselves with the product.
(21:44):
So now you've piqued the interest of the influencers who are trying to like,
who care about the craft and want to do the best and use the best and everything else.
Now it's like, oh, what's this? but as guys and gals,
Are keen to that now that they're like, they're, they want to use the best, whatever.
They're also more willing to not just be as brand loyal because they want to
(22:05):
use the latest and greatest.
So something else new comes along, their head turns a little bit.
And maybe in the past it wouldn't have.
It was like, no, no, I'm a Trex contractor and I feel taken care of and they're the best board.
And it's like now, now it's a lot harder to me, in my opinion today to say who
makes the next, the best deck board out there today.
10 years ago, you're going to say Trex.
Two, three years ago, you might've said said decorators and i feel like that's
(22:27):
a hard question to answer again now we've seen like seen decorators for sure
lose their edge at least in our market we've seen them we see we have like really
not great experiences in our market i'll leave it at that.
Avalas has now come out they're catching some attention because they're doing
some things differently innovative products they're doing and so yeah i think
(22:50):
to your point where it was like Like guys used to be so loyal that they would never change.
I think that they found, I think they found out they were maybe making mistakes.
They were maybe leaving some quality products on the table by not looking around.
Yeah. And now all of a sudden it's like, well, you know what?
Like Trex isn't going to look after me if there's like a really big problem later on.
(23:13):
They say they will, but ultimately that's all hidden behind.
And that's not just a knock at Trex. It's every brand in the whole world.
Yeah. writes a bunch of legal so they don't have to warranty anything they like
they say they have a warranty but it's like it's hard to get that warranty actually
to work for you yeah and so,
as a builder you need to just you need to make sure that
you're using products that are good for you and
(23:36):
the first time you step out and look at a
new product that's the hardest one and then after that you're like oh
wow i use that decorator stuff that was really fantastic fantastic you
know what like i've always used regal rail they're also
huge brand and and i always did that but now like
i don't know vista is making cable like maybe maybe
i could just work with vista as well doesn't mean i have to stop working
(23:58):
with regal but i'm doing myself a disservice and my customers a disservice by
not opening my eyes a little bit looking around yeah so yeah but at your i haven't
mentioned millboard yet so millboard comes in too so So now you've got these, let's say Trex.
Decorators, Everlast, Millboard, I would say maybe the four that are like making
(24:20):
the biggest splash in the contractor community right now. Yeah.
And so they're all differentiated a bit. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Like when you're asking somebody, it's like, what's the difference between
Trex and Fibron and TimberTech?
Like you gotta, you gotta start getting into the nitty gritty to be like,
well, this one technically is this much better because of this.
And it's like, ah, that's debatable. Yeah.
They just have their own ways of doing it. But now it's like,
(24:41):
well, you've got what Trex is known for and you've got Millboard,
which is a completely different product, comes in in different dimensions,
looks different, has a different cap, different properties, different installation
methods, different everything.
Yep. So it's like, if you like that, great. You've got Evelast,
which is like, is really making a splash in the photo print world.
So if you're looking for something super realistic to, to hardwood decking,
(25:02):
it's like, well, that looks really good.
You've got, who else did I say? Decorators. You've got their unique look and
it's like their big thing is like traction, traction, traction,
and, and expansion contraction with meal board can also make claim that too. So it's like.
Yeah. Yeah, and they're manufactured different, right? They're like,
it's a whole strand technology and it's a like made with lime.
(25:23):
So like they're actually, the core of their board is different.
They've done some different stuff. So which one's best?
It's like, that's hard to answer now. Yeah, they're all pretty good.
Depends on what you value the most. Do you want something that looks the most realistic?
Okay, well, that's a wash between Millboard and Everlast, Pioneer,
in my opinion, because, and I believe that the nod goes to Millboard as to what's
(25:44):
going to fool somebody into thinking it's real wood.
That one because the Pioneer looks absolutely beautiful and gorgeous and it's
a picture of real wood. So clearly it looks realistic.
However, it, it, in a way it kind of looks like engineered, like not engineered,
but like laminate flooring where it's like, it's a picture of real wood.
It's not, it's not real wood.
(26:04):
Which when we've started to talk about this, we've, we're talking lots more
about how designers are actually going inside and outside of the house now too.
And so if you're able to find a deck board board that looks exactly like a laminate
or so similar to the laminate you're using and you want to extend that look,
well then now Everlast is the best board because it matches your house the best. Yeah.
(26:25):
It's not the best board because it doesn't expand and contract.
It's the best board for you and as a contractor, that becomes the best board for your client.
Yeah. Now you, so. And so it's easy for them to turn heads because it's different.
And I understand that Zuri's been out for a long time and it's done that.
Yeah. And I understand that for a, for a moment in time, Murite was out at one point.
(26:45):
It's not the first photo print decking available, but it's the first one in
a while, and it's the first one that's maybe like.
Really gotten the attention of the contractor community. Like Zuri just kind
of almost seems like it's just kind of like, it's okay with its niche of very
specific regional markets and like, it just doesn't seem to have had the, has a mass appeal.
(27:08):
And didn't, wasn't the cap just slightly different, right? It didn't have that
acrylic cap on top of it. So it did scratch a little bit easier.
And so there was some improvements on what Zuri's done. TC Dex says,
great insight. Very much agree with your perspectives.
I've thought the same thing. I hated how Trex bullied you into being brand loyal.
So did a certain TimberTech rep seems like they're starting to back off.
So I think they got a little bit, but the other thing I wanted to say to this
(27:30):
is like, because they're doing things a little bit differently.
It's just, it's interesting.
It's catching people's attention. Is somebody going to switch to Avalast or
switch to Millboard? Maybe not, but they're at least looking at it and being
like, is this, does this make sense for me?
And what Trex is, Trex is releasing new boards too.
Yeah. But it's, but it's not as exciting. It doesn't catch your attention much
because it's like, well, it's the same Trex board, just a new finish to it.
(27:52):
You finish on top i get that the signature
line is technically a different capping on it
whatever too but it's still it's the same core there's nothing
like visually it looks nicer yeah it
is the most durable tracks board that they've released sure but it's just
like it's hard to get as excited about it because it's
just not it still feels like just another
(28:13):
the other thing that happens and there's like
points about this later on in in the podcast
but what happens when they start to
price this product is they only look internally so
like trex has now released this new line and they're
like well this is a really great product and it's really valuable and it's
for sure the best board we've released signature is like the greatest product
(28:35):
we have so now we have to price that accordingly in our lineup and what happens
is they they price that accordingly in their lineup but then they've lost touch
with that with where that pricing needs to be in market Because they don't pay
attention to what's happening around them.
They're all like, when you're on the top, you, you look internally because you're
(28:55):
like, I'm, we're the best. I'm the best.
This is what we're doing is the best.
And so the only way to be better is to beat ourselves.
And so you spend all this time looking at like yourself internally.
Yeah. And you lose touch with what's happening outside of the world.
So you have a photo print board that's being sold by Trex that is 20.
(29:17):
30, 40 times percent, sorry, percent, not times, percent higher than what other
photo print boards are in market.
And it's like, well, is your board 30% better than this board? Nope.
There's no chance it is.
So it's dangerous on top for that reason, right? Yeah.
(29:40):
You lose some perspective. Yeah. I think when you're on top,
not just Trex, but for anybody, it's you lose your desire to innovate a little
bit because you're like, well, we have the best product. We don't have to innovate anymore.
But the problem for everybody trying to catch up to you is that they're absolutely
innovating to try to do something better. Right.
Because you're not going to out-market Trex. As a small guy coming up,
you're not going to be like, we're just going to spend more money and we're
(30:02):
gonna like we're gonna we're gonna buy a piece of the customer consumer's mind yeah,
impossibly expensive that right now is can't do that right now you can't you
have to open eyes with the product first and then hopefully you can spend to
get there like you just have to have a different strategy so it's it's tough
but for the guy on top it's like the i mean,
i'm not suggesting that the writing's on the wall by any means but if you look
(30:25):
at some industries industries where people forgot to innovate or resisted innovation,
resisted what customers were looking for.
Blackberry being a very famous example. It's like, man, they hung on to that keyboard forever.
It actually buried them. Yeah. Because they were like, no, no,
they got too, too, what do they want to call it?
Romanticized. Too romantic with the past. Yeah. That's what made them,
(30:48):
that's what got them to where they were.
So they just kept trying to force it down people's throats and the market was
saying, no, no, no, like we're okay.
We don't want keyboards. This one's way cooler over here. Yeah.
Let's move away. And they push
back, push back, push back to the point and it buried them in the end.
So it's like. Which is too bad. That's tough because when you're on top and
all you see is like how great you are and like all the headlines,
you're reading your own headlines and it's just all rosy news.
(31:10):
And it's like, it's easy to sit back and be like, okay, maintain status quo.
Yeah. Make minor tweaks.
But sometimes the whole category is changing around you. And if you don't continue
to lead on the innovation front, then you at some point get left behind.
Yep. And I like the quote. I brought it on here that it's better to put yourself
out of business and have somebody else do it for you. Yes. So it's like.
(31:32):
Sometimes it's scary to release a new category because it's like,
it's going to cannibalize what we already do. And it's going to take a business
right here. It's like, yeah, but if you don't do it, somebody else will.
That's right. You don't get to, you don't get to have a, I'm sorry,
but the world moves fast. You don't get to have a product that's just number one forever.
Yeah. Somebody, especially in an industry that's on trend and like growing as
much as this, there's lots of people that want a piece of your pie.
(31:53):
Yeah. And everybody's watching and the people that are watching are homeowners,
architects, designers, contractors, right? Right? It's not just one group of people.
It's like, because you're attached to the house or you're in the housing industry,
there's lots of people that are watching and lots of people that are looking
(32:13):
for new products and the next greatest thing.
So you don't even, you don't have to appeal to just contractors or just homeowners.
You have a whole industry that you have to appeal to.
Yep. because landscapers are going to start looking at the products that they're pairing with.
(32:34):
And, you know, like commercial buildings are looking at, at colors and products
that they're matching to or using with.
It's just like, it is massive. Yeah.
And everyone's coming. Yeah. And I would say that like, this is going to sound
maybe a little bit egotistical, but I believe that in our market,
we're, we're the top dog as far as if you're going to shop for.
(32:57):
Materials to build a deck, there's nobody that does it better than us.
We take advantage of the fact that we're in a smaller market,
that it doesn't even make sense for a store like this to exist here,
but we did it. And so we have an advantage that way.
Like we're competing against traditional lumbiards and box stores who don't.
Won't ever probably put as much effort into the outdoor living space as we do.
Cause it's just a portion of their business, but there's no denying the fact
(33:18):
that like, since we've come along, they've tried a lot harder.
They're, they're, they're mimicking things that we do. Certainly.
And so if we don't continue to try to reinvent ourselves and to improve ourselves
all the time, then at some point we get left in the dark.
Our competitive advantage, the reason that we, that people shop with us is going
to be, is going to completely, or like over time it'll dwindle.
(33:39):
Yeah. Like you have a big advantage. So it's really obvious why people should shop with you.
And as that, as people carve away at that, it's like, if it becomes too small,
then it's just more convenient to shop somewhere else maybe. Yep.
So we've got to continuously do things to maintain that gap. That's right.
And if we don't, we're in trouble too. We don't. So.
Yeah. That's all we're saying. You just gotta, yeah. It's just like,
(34:00):
it's hard to stay on top and you have to like, I think one of the,
one of the things that I think is a, the largest,
factor, the largest contributing factor to falling off of the top is that you
don't you don't look at what's happening around you enough,
you just don't pay attention to what everyone else is doing yeah
and it gets a little bit crazy so like different railing companies and trex
(34:24):
and trex again with their aluminum railing like when they brought it out they're
just like this is the greatest thing it's like welded panels and it goes together
so fast and they were so excited about it and it was just like.
That's the same as what Fortress is. Compared to our own composite railing.
Compared to your own composite rail, it's so much less money.
It's only $75 a lineal foot and our composite rail is 110 and it's just like,
(34:49):
yeah, but everybody else is doing aluminum rail for 45.
So now what? Now, how do I justify yours? It's like, well, it goes together faster.
Fortress goes together pretty fast. Yeah, not as faster than yours.
Faster than your composite, right?
Yeah. And so it's always, it's always tricky to make sure that you're like really
(35:09):
aware of what's happening outside of your organization. Yeah.
Even if you're a contractor and you're like the best contractor and you're killing
it in landscape and it's like, what are your competitors doing right now?
Why are you losing jobs? jobs and and if
you are losing jobs that you are aware of it's like
find out why that happened and then start to
(35:29):
fix that because that's the first sign that
it's all coming down yeah right yeah from
the contractor perspective you just got to continuously reinvent yourself as
well because 10 years ago it was probably good enough just to be the composite
deck guy yeah you're the guy who does composite decks whenever else is doing
wood that's how you could set yourself apart yep but But as more and more people
start to also install composite decks. And specialize in it.
(35:54):
It's like, what sets you apart anymore?
It's like nothing. So if you don't continue to move forward,
innovate, reinvent yourself, then you just get lost in the crowd.
Yeah. And so then all of a sudden maybe you need to be the guy who like always
picture frames his deck and always uses a, always skirts his decks in or builds
the stairs a certain way just to maintain being ahead of the next guy.
(36:14):
But then everybody else starts to do that too.
And then so now when you get your next, well Well, now I'm going to start tackling the whole backyard.
So that makes it easier for the customer or whatever. Or it comes with a design.
It's just like a really, really small 3D design at the start.
For a while, like five years ago, if you did a 3D design, nobody else is doing
it. It's like, that was a really...
Big deal. Big differentiator for you is to be like, oh, well,
I'm going to work with this guy because I already know what it's going to look like at the end.
(36:36):
Yeah. I don't have to like take a chance. There's less risk in it for me.
Yeah. The more risk you can remove from interaction with the customer,
the higher chance you have of closing that deal.
Correct. So at that one point that helped, but that is so accessible now to anybody.
Yeah. That everybody can do that. Yeah. So now what's it going to be?
Now, how are you going to set yourself apart? Yeah. So you got to continue to grow.
Yeah. Put yourself out of business before somebody else does it for you.
(36:56):
Put yourself out of business. Yeah. So any more to talk about on that or have we beat this horse?
Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Was there anything on there?
You get too comfortable.
So that happens. We did talk about that. Lose touch with the why.
So that's important. I think for us, we're constantly trying to answer the why, why are customers here?
Why, like, why do they talk to us? Right. And as long as we,
(37:18):
as long as you listen to that customer and you listen to what they're actually asking you. Yeah.
Don't go like, don't try to fix a problem that isn't even a problem.
It's like, maybe it's a problem for you.
Yeah. We don't have a $15 a foot board. Well, that's not a problem in the industry.
Nobody was asking for that.
Everybody's asking for less expensive boards because of carbon tax and the cost
(37:39):
of food and the whatever interest rates are up.
I was like, you know what we should do in this really tough economical time?
We should create the most expensive board that's ever existed. Yeah. That's silly.
Certainly, maybe that works. I love it too. Maybe that works for some of your
customers, but it is so small.
It is over the last few years, there's been a bit of an arms race to who can
(38:03):
release the best, bestest looking, bestest performing high-end deck board out there.
And all it's done is drive caught. Like you look at,
you know, check signature, you look at Everlast Pioneer, you look at anybody's
high-end board and they're expensive.
Like we're now into the, like in Canadian dollars, we're into the 12, 13, $14, 15, 16.
(38:27):
You start talking about like, that's 30, that's 33, $35 a square foot for just a deck board. Yeah.
We're only probably six years removed from the highest cost boards being in
the six to $7 range, Canadian. I was at a doubled it.
Products are better, but. A site this morning, and we were talking about this
(38:51):
lady has a deck that's, she's talking about changing to a ground level deck.
This is a perfect example of, example of why we've moved into hardscapes.
There's a time when you shouldn't sell someone a deck when it's six inches off
the ground, it's just going to rot fast and blah, blah, blah.
Like you can do steel framing to mitigate that, but probably the right thing to do is a patio.
And so today we were talking and And she's like, the deck that she's looking
(39:13):
at is going to be $50 a square foot.
And I was like, well, there's an opportunity for us to do a $30 a square foot
or a $35 a square foot patio.
Are you interested in that? She's like, oh, you know what? That'd be really
great. Because then I could put a pergola up here and put a privacy wall on
this side. There you go. Yeah.
Now you can help them, right? And so when the world is trying to find a less
(39:33):
expensive option for outdoor living,
they're the industry leaders right
now are like they're racing to the most
expensive product and it's like well you're not listening to
your customers you're not you're not answering the why nobody was
asking for a 33 a square foot deck board yeah that's not what they wanted so
(39:54):
yeah it can be not a bad strategy though to to just position yourself as an
industry leader or as a large brand by having the best product as well.
Maybe the intent isn't even to sell a whole bunch of that. Maybe that's not
where the bread is actually made. That's okay.
Hopefully their intent is that and they don't manufacture a bunch of it because
(40:14):
they're not going to sell a lot of it.
Yeah. Well, they like, I was just talking about this with Peregrine Landscape
at the home show earlier today.
And Tony said something that I know resonated with me because I've thought the
same thing too. He's like, I used to have a big problem with shopping with my
own wallet or selling with my own wallet.
Like selling somebody a wallet it and like I was, I'm using my own financial
position as a frame of reference as to what other people can afford.
(40:36):
And he's like, that's not the case.
There's absolutely people that would spend and not even think two seconds about
it, about spending 30 bucks a square foot in a deck because they make more money than you and I do.
Deck, board. Then they get to frame it. Then they get to put it. Sure. Doesn't matter.
There's some people that $100 a square foot and $200 a square foot doesn't.
It's the same. Yeah. It doesn't matter.
Yeah. It's like they make millions. So whether their project call costs 50 or
(40:59):
or 75,000 is like, it doesn't matter. I want what I want. That's true. I want the best. Yeah.
So there's that component, but there'll always be people with money,
but the majority of the market.
The middle class is not shopping there. That's for damn sure.
And the middle class right now is like poorer than they've ever been.
So they need that low cost option. It's tough right now.
Avalos has done a good job of releasing a game changing attention,
(41:21):
like attention grabbing high end board at a high end price.
Yep. And has simultaneously put into market a low cost composite that's going
to appeal to a lot of people because to your point, things are getting more
expensive and life's getting more expensive and there's less disposable income.
And if we just keep like, it used to be years ago, it was like,
(41:42):
what's the cost difference between treated deck and composite deck?
And it's like, well, I don't know, maybe double like between the boards themselves,
the treated deck board is going to be a buck a linear foot and the composites
are going to start at 250. So about two and a half times.
Okay. And now in 2024, the wood deck board, still about a buck,
(42:02):
like how much more than a buck a linear foot.
That's right. But now the high end composite is 13. 13.
Yep. Releasing a low-end composite that's still at 349 is like a pretty smart strategy.
Yep. And in my humble opinion, it's getting harder and harder because the gap
between low-end budget composite and high-end composite is getting harder and
(42:24):
harder to justify because it used to be that somebody's entry-level board was
three bucks on your foot and their high-end board was six bucks on your foot.
And now what we're looking at is
entry-level board is three and a half and high-end is 12 and a half. 15.
That's a big gap. Is it worth it to spend like three to four times more?
It's like, it's getting harder to say that it is. Like what's the real difference?
(42:47):
It looks nicer, clearly. Like it looks pretty good too, but this one looks more realistic.
Warranty's similar. They're both maintenance free. Yeah. This one's scalloped.
What does that mean? Well, it's got this shit in it. Does that matter?
Not like on paper. Yes. Once it's down, you'll never know it's there.
Okay. Well then it's like, it's harder to justify going up. So very hard.
(43:07):
That middle ground, like we've seen for years, I feel like that middle ground
is going to get the snot beat out of it.
But maybe. It has. Maybe it's starting to come back the other way where it's
like, so the middle ground is like, well, why would I spend any more if the
entry levels are looking this good and their price is attractive? Yeah.
Or you've got people who's like, money's not a concern. Give me the best looking
shit out there. But like, who's buying the middle?
But maybe the top end is getting so expensive that you're starting to see some
(43:30):
people are like, no, no, I want the middle.
I want the best. I want all the features of the best, but I'm,
I don't want to, that's crazy. Yeah. Do you have something in the $68 range
that gives me all the same benefits? Yeah. Yep. We do.
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that, you know, over the last few years, we have seen that.
We've seen the middle, the middle get like kind of forgotten.
(43:51):
Like all middle children do. Yeah. They just get forgotten. But I mean the high
end, what once used to be high end boards is kind of the new middle.
Yeah. Trex Transcend is the middle now because Lineage is out and Signature's out. For them.
For them it is, but the rest of the industry, it's at the, their middle is at
where everybody else's top is.
Yeah. Price point though, Decker's Voyage is their high end board,
(44:11):
but price wise on the wall, it's actually middle price point now. Right.
Because there's $12 and $14 boards out there now. Yeah. They're still sitting at eight and a half.
So it's pretty, like it's, like I said, the seas are getting a little rough in this space.
Baxter Construction says, when, when is the 24 Goldslake deck board coming out?
Like they're putting all sorts of shit in these boards now. Like I wouldn't rate it out.
(44:32):
Could be any day. There's got fiberglass sheets inside there now.
And some guys are like bamboo is better.
Bamboo is better. My deck board's the best because I put hardwood in it.
My deck board's best because I put bamboo in it. So like, it's a joke till it's not anymore.
Somebody's going to have a shimmery gold dusted deck board here at some point.
(44:53):
It's happening. Only a matter of time.
Do you remember like- And then we're going to sell it to Baxter because he's
going to install it. He'll be like, I remember asking for that. That's a real thing.
And it seems funny, but it's like- It's a, it's not even that funny because
I remember my previous life I sold, like I was the marketing,
like the product manager essentially for a telecom company that launched,
like we launched all the cell phones.
So like you'd work with, at that time I was working with Blackberry and Samsung
(45:16):
and everybody else to choose what phones our network was going to launch.
And at that time it was like, there was, there was budget phones and there was
mid tier phones and there was high end phones.
High end phone was like an iPhone, right? Or a Samsung Galaxy at that time too.
Whatever number you're on at that point. And then I remember like there was
a whole other market and I'm, I don't remember what it was called.
(45:37):
There used to be a store in Vegas in Caesar's Palace.
I think it was, it started with a V, it was called like Virtus or something.
And what they did was they took blackberries and tricked them out.
Like you'd actually have like buttons that were diamonds and shit.
Like they would, they would literally like pop the case off.
They'd read these blackberries and sell them for like $20,000.
Yeah. Diamond encrusted blackberry with gold, like just.
(46:02):
Asinine stuff. Yep. I was like, we went there with cell phones.
Yes. Not completely. It's not crazy. It's crazy to think that you're going to
gold railing at some point.
If you had gold on there, you could probably sell it in Dubai, right? Right? Yeah.
Without a doubt, there's gold railing on a deck in a place like that.
Yeah. We're just in the wrong market. That's all. Yeah.
This one has great traction because of the diamond fleck in it.
(46:25):
Hardest material in the world. And it really grips your shoes.
It's hard on your shoes. Your shoes shred off the sole of them.
Pretty funny stuff. So anyways, hopefully we didn't piss anybody off in this
podcast. I know Trax's name came up a bit because.
They're at the top. Flattery, dude. They've been crushing it for how long?
And it's just like, there's a lot of attention on them right now.
And there's a lot of competitors trying to chew away and they're making some inroads.
(46:46):
We might come back to this in three years now and be like, turns out it was
just all like, what are they? what's the saying?
All something and no sizzle. All, you know what I'm trying to say? Yeah.
The brands right now that we're like, oh, they're making a splash,
but they may not get anywhere.
Like just because they're getting a bit of attention doesn't mean that they're
all smoke, no sizzle. That's what it is.
(47:07):
So maybe it's just some of that. Like in four years from now,
we might be like, well, Trek's still number one and these other guys that were
making inroads are not anymore. So who knows? It's very possible.
Yeah. All we're saying is that it's hard
to stay on top yep see you next week hey thank you for listening to the ultimate
(47:27):
deck podcast now you know what we're about check the site come and shop ultimate
deck shops.com hit us right away for sponsorships or tell us if you want to collaborate let's.
Music.
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