Mining Your Life for Stories

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Whether you are talking about creative or narrative nonfiction or fiction,
you can mine your own life for stories.
It's not just for memoirists,
it's for every kind of writing.
And when you don't know something and you fill in with the research,
that is what we're talking about today on the Writer Spark podcast with Lynn Glaude.

(00:22):
So grab a cup of something tasty and stay tuned.
It's a great conversation with a fascinating woman,
the very accomplished Lynn Galla.
Well,
welcome Lynn Gardner to the Writer Spark Podcast.
I'm so glad that you're here.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm thrilled to be here.
So I'd like to launch into um your origin story.

(00:43):
You have a,
an interesting background.
You do your own podcast.
You've written a lot of nonfiction.
So why don't you start there?
Tell us a little bit about yourself and then what led you to fiction and your latest book?
Yeah.
So,
um I've always been a writer.
My mother says I was six years old when I started.
So I'll have to trust her at that.

(01:04):
I would carry around um a little journal with me when I was a young girl,
I would write down little notes and skits and stories and poems.
And um,
writing has always been how I make sense of things,
how I figure out what I think or believe and how I process what's happening in the world around me.
So,
um it's both a tool and a talent I think.
And,
um,

(01:24):
you know,
I started my career as a journalist but even in high school I was writing for the school newspaper,
I wrote for the local newspaper as a freelancer when I was a teenager.
Um,
same thing at University of Michigan.
I wrote for the Michigan Daily,
but I also freelanced for the Ann Arbor News.
So I was always um writing nonfiction,
telling people's stories,

(01:44):
like curious and taking notes and interviewing people and just sort of like wondering,
you know,
where do you find meaning and,
and what is special to you?
And,
and I've always been fascinated by that.
I also think it's how we live in community,
you know,
by learning about other people.
So my writing has sort of been,
I guess my open door to the world and all of my other books.

(02:06):
So I have eight books that came out before women of valor,
six nonfiction and two collections of poetry.
Um I did a master of fine arts and creative writing and poetry.
And,
um all of those were just sort of outgrowths of my curiosity.
Like I'm wondering about this and there's no book on it.
So I'll write the book and,
you know,
they were sort of um labors of love passion projects.

(02:27):
I never expected to make money or do anything with it.
Um,
but I always wanted to write fiction because I like reading fiction more than any other genre.
And so even,
um even at a young age I would try,
I didn't think I was very good,
but in the year 2000,
I wrote my first novel,
I was really proud of myself for writing it.
I thought it was the best thing ever.

(02:47):
And I gave it to like five writer friends.
I said,
what do you think?
What do you think?
And they had lots of critical feedback.
And so it like went in a drawer for about five years and then I revised it and sent it back out and said,
now,
is it perfect?
And they sent a lot of critical feedback and it's still in the drawer.
And so I've been trying to write fiction for a very long time and I,
um,
even started,

(03:09):
I guess the bones of Woman of valor in 2011.
But I didn't come back to it until 2021.
And I think that my writing had matured and developed enough by then.
Um,
as,
as well as myself as a person,
you need a lot of patience and perseverance to write a novel.
And so,
um,
I think that's just,

(03:29):
you know,
sort of the,
the combination that had to happen for me to get there and now I'm just like,
going full charge ahead.
So,
um,
yeah.
Yeah,
that's how I got to fiction.
That's awesome.
Well,
congratulations on women of valor,
first of all.
So,
it's a very,
um,
internally driven story.
Right.
You've got your,

(03:49):
your heroine who's got a lot of internal conflict going on rather than a lot of external conflict driving the plot.
So can let's,
let's just start there before we launch into our topic,
topic,
which is mining your life for stories.
But,
um,
you know,
it's hard to write a really internally driven story without,

(04:11):
uh,
you know,
I mean,
obviously there's balance and obviously there's external things going on there driving the plot.
But,
you know,
I don't,
I don't know if I could write a book without a murder,
you know,
I mean,
that,
that sort of external element that helps propel things.
So let's just speak to that first.
Yeah.
Sure.

(04:31):
So,
um,
you know,
I think I wanted to do a story about a really compelling woman and her personal growth,
her internal conversation that led to the building of her identity.
I think it's very much about who Sally is as a woman,
as a Jewish woman and she's carving out an identity that's new to her when she's in her twenties.

(04:55):
And I think that's unique and unusual and I think,
um,
one of the things that I loved about creating her was that she,
she really was making deliberate decisions about who she wanted to be and how she wanted to live,
which I don't think many of us do.
I think we sort of just go according to what we're given when we're,
when we're growing up.
Um,
so that was really fun.
But,

(05:15):
um,
you know,
I think a lot of people when they write a first novel,
it's a one character point of view,
it's just much easier to stay with one character throughout.
Um And I think that,
you know,
building scenes and writing action are of course,
super important,
but they take more time and effort,
which I think women of valor has.

(05:37):
I think there's lots of scenes and lots of interactions,
but this is Sally's journey and,
um you know,
really about finding love and,
and living a life that,
that she loves.
And so,
um I think,
I think that's where I cut my teeth.
My next novel,
which is in final revision stages right now has four different points of view.

(05:57):
And um there's still a lot of relationships.
I mean,
I write a lot about identity and relationships and love.
That's just,
that's what I write about.
But,
um you know,
there's four different perspectives,
there's um a lot of things that happen.
It's,
it's a lot more like webs of,
you know,
characters and relationships and backstory and there's a little magical realism even so I think I like,

(06:18):
you know,
cut my teeth out.
Yeah,
and then I like took a step up with the next one.
So,
um yeah,
I think that,
I think that's probably what it was.
And what is that one called?
And when will that be released?
I haven't announced the title yet,
so I can't do it quite yet,
but it's going to come out in 2024.
Um And so the um probably it'll be announced in the title and the cover reveal in like the early part of 2024.

(06:44):
And I,
I don't know yet what month it'll be released,
but I'm super.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I am too.
It sounds right up my alley.
Four points of view and intertwining all of that together in a really cohesive narrative.
It is challenging and ambitious.
So it is,
I hope I've done it well,
fingers crossed.
You'll have to let me know.

(07:04):
Ok,
so let's jump into our topic,
which again is mining your own life for stories.
So let's talk about your novel and you know,
what elements of yourself and your life helped create that,
that fictional plot and that character and that,
you know,
the internal journey that she's on and all of it.

(07:26):
Yeah.
So I am a strong Jewish woman that's always been my identity,
but I was raised pretty secular and I in my twenties came to Orthodox Judaism and I was in that community for about 10 years.
I'm not anymore.
So I like to say,
I've sort of like spanned all the denominations of Judaism.
And now I just say I'm just Jewish,

(07:47):
you know,
like,
um,
I,
I sort of take a little bit from all and I reject a little bit from all.
Um,
but I did spend 10 years as an orthodox Jew.
And so I know that community really well,
I will say that there are,
this is not based on me this novel at all.
Lots of people want to see it,
but it's not,
um there are a lot of differences,
like,
for example,

(08:08):
um Sally is part of a more religious orthodox community than I was.
I was in what's called modern Orthodox.
And it's um it's sort of straddling like the mainstream world and the orthodox world.
And so it's a little bit different and Sally is fully in hook line and sinker and she wears a wig and she wears only skirts and long sleeves and like she's,
she's really,
and um she's in a very passionate marriage with the love of her life.

(08:32):
Um My orthodox husband was not the love of my life.
Um He's the father of my Children,
but he's not my husband anymore and we're friends.
But,
you know,
there's that,
um I,
I've never lived in Chicago.
Um So there's a lot of research for that and I am definitely not a runner.
She's an avid runner and I had to do tons of research because I hate running.

(08:53):
I,
I'm,
I'm like,
yes,
but not a runner,
not in any way.
Um So there are a lot of differences.
And the other thing too is that I left orthodoxy because it just,
it just didn't resonate fully for me.
And I wanted this book to celebrate the orthodox community and show of why she loves it and a really beautiful,

(09:17):
um,
rich tradition of observance.
And because I felt like there are so many books in the world that trash religious lifestyles,
whether it's Jewish Christian Muslim,
whatever,
everybody's trying to escape it.
And I thought I don't really need to add to that.
I don't really want to disparage and every community has good and bad,

(09:39):
which is in this book too.
But,
you know,
I wanted the good to win out over the bad.
And so it was a challenge but a conscious decision to,
to portray a community that I chose to leave.
Um But do it in a way with love and um and really celebrate it.
So,
so yes,
I pulled from all that.
I will say I have three biological Children and they are boy,

(10:01):
girl,
boy.
So that is sort of similar to Sally and I have always cooked for them with them,
like having my kids stand on chairs at the counter and help cook that is based on my life.
Um So yeah,
there are things like that but um and some of the dishes that she makes for Shabbat or just for everyday meals,
they definitely come from my kitchen.
So,

(10:21):
um,
that's where I think a lot of similarities come from,
but it's still fiction,
I promise.
Yeah.
I,
I mean,
I think it's hard to write something without having parts of ourselves in it and pulling from our lives.
I have a series,
the Lola Cruz mystery series,
Dead Bodies,
of course.
Uh And obviously,

(10:42):
I am not Latina,
but my husband is first generation Mexican American.
And so when I first got to know his family way back in my early twenties,
uh you know,
it was,
it was just so night and day different from my own family and just how we functioned.
And,
you know,
he's got a lot of siblings.
I have two brothers and I,
um I'm also a huge introvert and most of them are huge extroverts.

(11:05):
So I remember the first time we were together,
I was at their meeting the whole family and I did not budge from the picnic table like the whole time I was there like terrifying.
Um But so Lola and her family are greatly influenced and modeled after my in-laws,
both my mother and father in law and the some of the siblings and,

(11:29):
and I,
you know,
it was sort of the same.
I really wanted to celebrate this culture that I had become part of through my marriage and then through my kids,
you know,
because that's,
we wanted to really um embrace that the culture and make sure that it was part of their lives,
even though,
you know,
we live an entirely assimilated American life.

(11:50):
You know,
my husband too.
Um So,
I mean,
it's so important to show different facets of cultures and faith,
you know,
they are strongly Catholic and,
and I am not,
but uh you know,
it,
it was important to me that Lola was that it was true and representative of her culture and her family and,
and you know,

(12:11):
you're right,
it's so many things trash and stereotype that it's so important to show those other perspectives and just the normality of it too.
Yes.
And you know,
I,
I think you're so,
you're so right about how we do try to pull from life to create beautiful stories,

(12:32):
you know,
like Sally's relationship with her grandparents.
I mean,
I was really close to my grandparents.
And so,
you know,
that's a lovely part of,
you know,
what I think of his identity and family and community.
And,
and so I think um taking from real life to write stories,
I mean,
I think we all do it whether we do it consciously or not because you write about what,
you know,

(12:52):
but you also should be researching and filling in and learning what you don't know.
So that the whole thing is believable.
Um And even when we know things about ourselves,
sometimes we've got to do the research because we don't know fully,
you know,
where did this come from?
And,
um,
let me learn more so that there's some depth of context in the story.
And I,
I,
so I definitely did that,

(13:13):
um,
for women of valor and even more so for the next novel because it's,
you know,
I,
I think I'm sharpening my skills and so now I know what a novel means that I hope the next one and the next one,
the next one is even stronger.
Um,
because I'm learning from each experience too.
Yeah.
And easier to write in the sense of understanding story structure,

(13:33):
maybe not easier to write as a whole or in the context of the plot.
But I have found that with each subsequent novel,
I understand story structure all that much better.
Now I teach it.
And of course,
you know,
too,
as a coach and teacher that when you teach something,
you really have to know it and also you learn with what,
you know,
and you're like,
oh,
I know so much.
Wow.

(13:54):
You know,
but it really hones your knowledge base.
You know,
it's,
it's interesting.
It's really important because,
you know,
I mean,
I,
I do want to take my own advice that I teach in my classes and hope that when my students read my book,
they're not like,
oh my gosh,
she doesn't know anything.
This is terrible,
you know.
And so luckily,
I'm so grateful that so many of my students have read Woman of valor and they just love it and have been texting me like,

(14:19):
oh my God,
I could have put it down.
I read it three days and that's really,
really cool.
Of course.
Then the next one it's like,
well,
can I do it again?
Can I,
you know,
but I will tell you in terms of this topic of minding your life or story.
Um,
one of my daughters who I'm super close to,
she's convinced that every book I write is completely about,
like,
my family.
And so she hasn't read them and I don't think she will,

(14:41):
she doesn't love to read.
But,
um,
but woman of valor when I told her about it,
she's like,
oh my God,
that is so us,
you know,
and then this next novel which has like,
nothing to do with me or any of my life at all.
She's like,
oh,
no,
that's totally this person.
And that's totally,
and you can't do that because it's,
you know,
they're going to see themselves in it and I'm like,
really,
it's not really,

(15:01):
it's not,
you know,
like,
just,
but I think people who know us,
they do look for something familiar in what we write because they,
they want to see some spark of recognition.
So,
I don't know,
I guess I could say it as much as I want,
but people are going to believe what they're going to believe.
Right.
Yeah.
I,
I wrote two romantic suspense novels.

(15:22):
Way back.
I love them.
They're based on Mexican legends,
Laon and Chupacabra and,
uh,
my husband,
every time it was brought up in any kind of conversation with other people,
he always gave the disclaimer that has nothing to do with me.
It is not model,
not modeled after me at all.
Nothing to do with it.

(15:42):
I'm like,
honey,
you should want that to be.
He's very,
he's a very good guy that is so funny.
I love it.
Yeah.
Well,
I could say that any of the passionate scenes in women of valor or the next novel definitely modeled after my husband.
So I'm remarried very happily and it's like,

(16:03):
yes,
we have a loving relationship and we have fun together and so that has become a model for relationships that I write about.
But um you know,
are the characters him?
No,
I don't think so.
I don't know.
You know.
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
No.
Don't you find that the characters ultimately,
they just become who they are.
They become,
they might start with a nugget of this and a nugget of that and a negative of something else.

(16:25):
But ultimately,
the more you write and then go back to the beginning and refine they are their own people.
Yes.
Yeah,
definitely.
Yeah,
I think so.
And,
and the characters for me come to life and I know a lot of fiction writers will say,
you know,
you get to a point where you get so sick of your story.
I've never gotten to that point.
You know,
I'm always fascinated and then I'm like,
oh,
I wrote this how cool,

(16:46):
but the characters they take shape and dimensionality and,
and it's really fun to know them and just to see them pop up again and,
and take you on surprise,
you know,
like I will say a woman of valor,
I sort of,
I wrote by the seat of my pants and I learned that I can't do that when it comes to a novel for the novel.
I spent a month mapping it out before I started writing and I felt much more confident and,

(17:12):
and ready to sit down and write it.
But even with that,
that outline,
that,
that character sketch,
all the stuff that I did,
they still took me by surprise.
They were just like,
oh,
no,
we're going in this direction and I'm like,
ok,
fine,
let me write a note so I can update so I can remember.
But,
um,
that's really fun too about writing novels.
Like,
yes,
you,
you direct them,
you shape them,

(17:33):
they do speak to you and they do take on a voice of their own as well.
And that's just really cool.
Yeah,
I've done some podcasts on that with various people,
um,
spoke about that actually in great length with Katherine Ramsland who's actually,
she's a forensic,
um,
she's like a forensic scientist anyway,
she's in forensics and she's consulted on Bones and a variety of different television shows and things like that.

(17:57):
But she wrote a book called Snap and it's all about those sort of,
aha moments.
And when we were talking I was like,
yeah,
that was entirely the process when I wrote my,
a book,
Magic series,
which is about a Bibliomania year old curse Irish Deities.
And I had the general plot over the course of four books,

(18:21):
you know,
and I,
I knew essentially where it started,
sort of some things that had to happen and had to end.
But throughout,
as I did research,
I had these moments that I thought,
oh my God,
this is wonderful,
brilliant,
perfect.
I never could have plotted it in a million years on my own because I didn't have that information.

(18:44):
Right.
And,
and so that's kind of what you're talking about with researching to fill in the gaps that you don't know.
So you,
you're pulling things from your life,
they're influencing this or that in your story.
But as you dig into research,
that's when real magic can happen.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well,
I think it opens things up too.
So,

(19:04):
you know,
um,
it felt really empowering to learn the streets in Skokie,
Illinois and,
and sort of,
you know,
map that whole scene of where they live.
And then I even did research and,
you know,
it's a very strong Jewish community and into the architecture.
Like why,
what style of houses and why are they built that way?
And um what are the parks near Lake Michigan?
And it was like,

(19:24):
I felt like,
OK,
I'm in the story too,
you know,
finally I have that information.
Um You know,
my next novel takes place partially in Michigan,
partially in Scotland.
And I,
I live in Michigan and I have um I visited Scotland a few times to do the research,
but just doing,
you know,
some of the research because it takes place about 10 years ago.
Um I was like Googling,

(19:45):
you know,
what,
what beers were,
were popular that,
that,
you know,
in 2014 or um you know,
just like different Scottish foods or like names even that were popular at the time that the characters were born and all those things.
So I think that,
that,
that makes it become more real,
but also it gives the writer more confidence about,
you know,
knowing how this story is going to unfold and that I have everything I need to write it.

(20:09):
So research is just one of the best tools.
I mean,
I don't,
you know,
and it's easy,
we have the internet.
So just look up,
you know,
baby names in the air or whatever.
And now you have something to choose from characters.
That's really cool.
What is the connection to Scotland?
What made you make Scotland a part of your story?
So um after I turned 50 I started doing month long trips somewhere.

(20:30):
So I would go to write and just be in a place as opposed to being a tourist.
And um the first one I did was to the Scottish Highlands and I rented a house and a car and I was there for a month and it was amazing.
And I wanted to write about,
I wanted to write something about Scotland.
And so I was trying to figure it out.
So actually,
that started with research and then I based the story on some historical figures that I found even though it's a contemporary novel.

(20:54):
And um and I have this poll to Scotland and I don't know what it is because I'm like,
I,
so after I came home,
I did ancestry DNA because I'm like,
maybe there's a shred of me that has some Scottish,
you know,
anything half of a percent somewhere.
I have to tell you like 98% Jewish,
Eastern European,
Jewish and my kids were like,
mom,

(21:14):
what did you expect?
Like this is,
you know,
like you're not,
there was a,
a 1% Baltics and 1% what do they call it?
But basically it was a little bit of Scandinavia and they included England in it.
And I said,
OK,
I'm going to claim Viking,
I'm gonna claim 1% Viking.
You know,
it went so like maybe,
you know,
but my kids are just like,
rolling their eyes.

(21:34):
No,
mom.
No,
you're not.
You're totally Eastern European Jewish out now.
Like just there's no way around it.
I'm like,
ok,
I was hoping for some lineage but yes,
I'm drawn to it and I can't tell you why.
So,
yeah.
So,
in a way,
you know,
when we're talking about mining your life for stories,
you created a situation in which you could pull from your experiences by living in Scotland for a month.

(21:58):
And,
you know,
really immersing yourself in,
in the culture and the life and the language and the,
you know,
all of it,
the food,
all of it.
Yeah.
So I did and it was,
it was amazing.
And then so as I was writing this book,
I realized that the way it was going,
it was really going to stay more in Edinburgh.
And then like,
just sort of like just north of it.

(22:20):
But when I was there a couple of years ago,
I was in the highlands and I'd been to Edinburgh.
Um but like 20 some years ago,
so I really didn't have any memory of it.
And I'm like,
well,
I think to do it believably,
I need to go back like you can do so much research digitally,
but you also have to be in the place.
And so I went this past May and um and I decided I'm basing it in,

(22:41):
in Edinburgh and Loch Lomond area.
And so I went to Loch lomond,
which I had not been to and just like,
sat at the side of the lake and like took notes about what did it sound like?
What did it smell like?
What it,
you know,
all of that,
like the landscape and really learning it?
Um The same thing with Edinburgh.
And so,
um I needed to go again,
which maybe is my excuse to like,
go to that again.

(23:03):
Right.
Yeah,
let's go with it.
But um but it was definitely useful and I feel like,
um I,
I really got some pivotal,
pivotal depth for this story when I was there.
So,
you know,
and of course,
like,
I'm spending my own money to do this.
It's not like somebody is sending me there.
So I just think it's an investment in writing a really quality book and in my own experience,

(23:25):
you know,
so who knows what else is going to come out of it?
I write a lot of creative nonfiction,
which is totally mining my life for a story and,
you know,
essays and stuff.
And so you just never know what else is going to come out of that too.
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(23:46):
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(24:31):
Was it the chicken before the egg or vice versa?
So,
did you have an inkling of an interest of Scotland from something,
a novel,
whatever in the past?
And that made you want to choose Scotland and go there and experience it or did you just pick it and go for some unknown reason?
And that therefore became something that you've then wanted to write about?
Well,
you know,

(24:51):
it's interesting when I married my first husband,
um which is like 23 years ago,
we honeymooned in Scotland and I actually asked him,
um over the past few years,
why did we do that?
You know,
we were orthodox Jews,
which means you have to eat kosher food and there's really no kosher food in Scotland.
So it was very,
very complicated to do.
And,
and we did and I actually don't have a lot of very vivid memories of it.

(25:14):
Um I know where we went,
but I just,
it feels like so long ago and,
um,
and,
you know,
he couldn't remember either.
He's like,
I don't know why we chose it.
So it's really,
were honeymooning.
I mean,
I was right.
You know,
like,
but,
yeah,
so,
so that's really interesting.
But I will say,
and I hate to say this,
but I'm gonna say it,
um,
during the pandemic,

(25:35):
my husband and I watched the Outlander series and I didn't know it was based on books but it was just so beautiful the scenery.
Then I got the books and I always feel so bad as a writer if I watch a show based on a book without reading the book.
So I'd like to do the other.
So I got the Outlander books and I,
and they're so much better than the show and I was just riveted and I think that sparked the new interest in it.

(25:59):
Um,
so that's why I went to the highlands and I,
um,
but I will say it's very interesting apparently when Diana Gabaldon wrote that first novel she had never been.
And that's so,
I mean,
that was in the eighties,
late eighties,
like early nineties.
But I think that's fascinating because it's so detailed and vivid and she didn't have the internet to pull from.
Yeah,

(26:20):
she did not.
And she had no lineage,
you know,
I mean,
she's,
I think she's Mexican American actually.
And,
um,
yeah,
I'm pretty sure she is.
And so it's fascinating that,
like,
so I have had experience there but I think it was just,
uh,
reignited when I watched the show because it's just so pretty and it's,
every bit is pretty in person,

(26:41):
so I'll keep going back for sure.
Oh,
well,
you make me want to go,
I've wanted to go to Ireland.
I haven't made it there yet.
Yeah.
Uh,
so you write a lot of,
uh,
creative nonfiction,
you said?
And that pulls from your life?
So,
let's talk about that a little bit.
So,
what,
what uh kind of creative nonfiction do you write?

(27:02):
And has that changed over the years?
Yes,
it really has.
So I've always written essays.
Um and that,
that sort of came out of both my experience in journalism and reporting skills.
Um And my degree in,
in poetry,
my M fa is in poetry.
And so that's really um attention to language and,

(27:24):
you know,
brevity and,
um really,
you know,
evoking the senses and vivid pictures in words.
And then,
you know,
journalism is all about gathering the information,
you know,
reporting the facts and interviewing people.
And so I remember when I was in graduate school,
I,
I would write poems that my friends would think were very like journalistic and then I would write essays that were very poetic,

(27:47):
you know,
so it was sort of informed one another.
And um so all throughout my career,
you know,
I've had a career in journalism,
I've had a career in marketing and um I just employ those skills and I've always written essays on the side,
just like I said,
to either make sense of something,
figure out what I think about it or add a voice to a timely topic,
you know,

(28:07):
of,
of whatever stage of life I was in.
Um,
and I,
when I decided about five years ago to sort of pivot away from marketing,
which I still do.
But I really shrank my business and I wanted to get,
I wanted to be writer first and foremost,
you know,
I always said yes,
but I'm really a writer.
And so I'm like,
well,
let's put,
you know,
let's walk the walk.
And so I was very strategic in it.

(28:29):
And I started teaching much more.
I've always taught,
but I started teaching many more classes.
Um I started really working on women of valor and I was writing a lot of essays,
but I wanted them to be less journalistic and more creative,
but still nonfiction.
And so I've had them published in literary journals and magazines,
you know,
all around the world over the past few years.

(28:51):
And I still do a lot of that,
you know,
I,
I do a lot of writing about nature,
writing about identity,
um heritage,
um community,
that kind of thing.
So all the same themes that show up in women of valor.
And,
you know,
and hopefully all my novels really come from my essays too.
And so when I was working on my author brand,
you know,

(29:11):
like what is it that I do?
And who am III?
I realize I'm always writing about identity and being Jewish is so part of that,
that um I was going to commit to creating compelling Jewish characters who fill their lives with passion,
purpose and love.
And um and so,
you know,
that really does thread through my essays as well.

(29:32):
Although I do write a lot about nature also.
Um just,
you know,
how we interact with the natural world and what we can learn from it and everything.
And so,
um yeah,
that's really what it is.
And I,
I try to submit on a regular basis so that my essays are getting picked up and published.
And um yeah,
I've,
I've had a lot of success with it and it's really just about making sense of the different experiences I've had in my life.

(29:57):
So recalling,
you know,
one of my favorite essays that I've written was about um a relationship I had before I met my first husband and we,
he was in New York.
I was in Detroit.
So we were always traveling to see each other and then we took this big road trip across the country.
And so the theme of that is really like the roads we travel.
So it's literal,
but also metaphorical.

(30:19):
And um and II,
I mean,
I dated him what,
you know,
25 years ago.
So this is not the recent past,
but I feel like when I get some distance from a part of my life,
I can see it clearly and then I can make a story out of it.
And um you know,
like I will say when I lost my father um in,

(30:39):
I guess it was,
what year did he die?
2020.
Um Yeah,
early like the second day of 2020.
And we were super close.
I,
every essay I wrote the next year ended up being about him,
even if I didn't think it was about that,
you know,
like I swim all the time and I wanted to write an essay about swimming.
It ended up being about my dad.
So,
I mean,
he swam but,
you know,
it was like not the cornerstone of our relationship.

(31:01):
So,
um but I think that was how I processed the grief,
you know,
and,
and then one day I just didn't write essays about him anymore and I'm like,
ok,
I can move on to another topic.
So,
so again,
it's all about making sense of my world.
Yeah.
And,
and letting things unfurl as they need to,
not even knowing what it is you need or what's buried deep in letting them come out.

(31:26):
Sure.
Sure.
Yeah.
And it's just like my characters speak to me in writing novel,
um and tell me which direction it's going to go.
That happens in creative non fiction.
You know,
I think I'm writing about,
you know,
climbing a mountain that I did climb and all of a sudden,
I'm like,
how did I,
where did that paragraph come from?
You know,
like,
but it's just cool when you get lost in the story and it starts to tell you things.

(31:49):
It's just,
it's really cool.
So,
you said that it helps to have distance,
you know,
we went through some things with family now.
It's been a solid 20 or more years and I've tried to write about it multiple times and I even teach classes on memoir writing.
I have a book on memoir writing.
You know,
I,
I love memoir as a whole,

(32:11):
but that particular time in our lives because it was really difficult.
I've never been able to write about because it just brings up too much and it takes me back there and I think that I've moved past it and then all of a sudden it's all right there again.
You know.
So,
do you,
have you ever run into that situation when you're pulling something from your life or you think?

(32:36):
Yes,
I'm ready to write about that or?
You know,
here's an idea of something I went through.
But then you find that you just actually can't pull that together because of emotions.
You know,
I'm sure I'm sure I have,
I can't think of something off the top of my head,
but there's a lot of starts that,
that I have to an essay that just didn't go anywhere.
Maybe it's paragraph and it's just sitting on my computer and I've never gone back to it.

(33:00):
So I,
I do try to,
um,
I do do,
try to just listen to my gut and if something isn't working,
I don't wrestle with it.
I just put it aside and go on to something that I can work with and hope I can come back to it in time.
But I think some stories we can't,
I think some um are meant to be lived in that process or written about.

(33:22):
And so sometimes they just have to stay in the rearview mirror.
What do you think?
It's,
uh I don't know how to phrase this.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm thinking,
except that,
you know,
when you're really examining,
I guess the question is,
do you feel like you really examine your life to pull very consciously events,

(33:47):
topics,
themes that you want to write about or is it more organic because I think,
you know,
as you said,
a lot of us just kind of flow through life and things happen to us and we're maybe not reflecting upon it,
you know,
and we have the,
the,
uh what is it,
the um what's that quote?
The unexamined life is not worth living,
right?
So,
so where do you fall in that?

(34:07):
Do you feel like you really understand yourself and your life,
your life and your experiences or um I know you said that you write in order to understand that somewhat.
But I don't know,
I,
I just sense this sort of heightened understanding of yourself that you have compared to maybe a lot of people compared to maybe me because you can hone in on those experiences and really pull something powerful from them.

(34:36):
Well,
I,
I'm very flattered to hear that.
I don't think I have it figured out.
I think that I figure it out by writing it out.
And so a lot of times I'll go through many drafts of an essay because I don't know what I'm getting at,
you know,
like in writing it,
I get to that clarity but it could take nine or 10 drafts before get there.
And so,

(34:56):
you know,
I have found in working with writing coaches myself and in teaching a lot of writers that when you don't know when you can't do the ending,
you can't nail the ending.
It's because you're not sure what it's about.
And so you have to get clear,
what am I trying to say here?
And then the ending will,
will sort of present itself to you.
You know,
there's an essay that I started writing that I thought I totally knew what I was going to say.

(35:18):
I had a friendship that was a very close friendship for a very long time.
And then this friend just sort of ghosted me just,
you know,
and it was about how long ago,
eight years ago and we've been friends probably for two decades at that point.
And,
um,
and we were very close and so it was like,
what's happening here,

(35:39):
you know.
Um,
and so,
and I,
and I've thought about her a lot and then I have a friend,
Annie Catherine,
whose book,
The Friendship Breakup came out and it really just sort of triggered some thoughts and I'm like,
you know,
I had a friendship breakup.
I'm going to write about this.
And so I started the essay and I brought it,
I thought it was so powerful and strong and like,
I'm,

(35:59):
I'm so clear and I brought it to my critique partner and she,
she's very sweet and very diplomatic and she's like,
you know,
praising all the great things in the essay.
And then she goes,
you know,
I'm just curious but um I see all the things that this friend did for you.
What did you do for her?
And I'm like,
oh my God,
was I a terrible friend?

(36:20):
Did she break up with me?
Because I,
I was horrible,
like,
and I don't know.
And so the thing is that essay is still in draft form because I've been reflecting on it ever since we had that critique session.
And I was like,
maybe it was me,
maybe,
you know,
and so,
and I,
and I toy with the idea of writing an essay called I was a terrible friend.
I don't know if that's true.

(36:40):
I don't know,
but I think it begs scrutiny and so I need to wrap my head around it before I can really finish that essay.
So,
I don't think I have it figured out.
I think I write to figure it out.
Yeah.
The fact that you want to figure it out,
I think is important to note though because again,
I think so many of us just float through life.
You know,
my daughter had a recent friend,

(37:01):
breakup actually.
And it's been so terrible and we had,
you know,
brought her into our family too and,
and we've reflected a lot on what happened and we've not come to any conclusions.
I mean,
you can hypothesize about what happened but you can't ever necessarily know it.
I don't know that I'll get any deeper because I don't know,

(37:23):
I don't really feel like writing about it but you want to,
like,
you want to understand and I think that's,
that's an important distinction,
you know,
between,
uh,
kind of processing through something,
denying it all together or delving into it so that you can figure it out.
Yeah,
I have no trouble writing very,

(37:44):
um,
openly about myself and my life and a lot of people are uncomfortable with that.
But I'm an open book.
I really feel like,
um,
I want to understand,
I'm not ashamed or embarrassed of any of my experiences,
even though I've made tons of mistakes.
And I,
I think that when I write about it.
I gain clarity and I could help somebody else who maybe has gone through the same thing or is going through it and doesn't understand it.

(38:10):
And I always tell my students that,
you know,
if one person has changed or feels less alone because of something you wrote,
then you've succeeded and hopefully more than one person.
But,
but that's why I do this.
Like I,
I do it to start a conversation with people to be in community and to,
you know,
really understand our own human frailties,

(38:31):
I guess.
And,
and I put it out there so that we can do this together because,
you know,
there's really no new story.
I mean,
we're all doing our best and we're all making mistakes and,
and I think we understand not only ourselves better,
but then maybe other people in the world around us and especially looking at the way the world is today.
I,
I think that that's the only way that we,

(38:54):
we actually bridge divides and close these gaps is by understanding ourselves and other people and what motivates that.
Yeah.
And when you're writing things about yourself,
I think part of it is understanding why you're doing it.
And as I said,
I teach memoir courses too.
And one of the things we touch upon is the fact that as you said,
there is no news story and we have these universal experiences,

(39:17):
this collective unconsciousness.
And when you're writing something,
it's kind of like in the classroom,
if one person has a question,
10 other people probably have it.
They just don't want to ask.
Right.
And it's the same thing if you're writing about this truth or this experience that you had,
but all of these other people,
it's going to resonate with them and they're going to be able to learn from it or,

(39:39):
you know,
experience those emotions or,
you know,
process something they hadn't processed before,
help them understand.
And that's a huge part of it.
Yes.
Yeah,
it is.
And I,
I do feel like it's a very important quest,
this,
this creative nonfiction writing and,
and frankly,
even fiction,
um because we learn more about ourselves and become multifaceted and,

(40:04):
and um better adjusted human beings when we see a story on the page that may not be ours.
But in some way we take something from it.
And um I think that it's one way that we can connect across divides.
You know,
I love reading books about different cultures,
different ethnicities,
um because I may never actually get to be in that community.

(40:26):
And so this way I can learn about it and I feel like I understand people better and I hope that's the case for a woman of valor because,
you know,
it's a particularly religious story and a lot of people who are not Jewish have read the book and said it was fascinating.
I learned so much and that's the point,
you know,
it's like I wanted to build a window into a world that many people never get to experience and in a way that build empathy as a proposed to who are those weirdos,

(40:53):
you know,
like just,
you know what I'm saying?
Like,
yeah,
they dress different.
Ok.
Now I understand it or,
you know,
why don't they go to our schools?
Ok.
Now I get it,
you know,
like,
so that we can build compassion because again,
the state of the world,
that's the only way we're going to live peacefully together is if we can have some compassion for other people who live differently.

(41:17):
Well,
and I think it's interesting with this particular story,
woman of valor that you have the Catholicism in there too.
So you're creating a,
you know,
in a sense,
a bridge,
but also the Jewish Orthodox perspective on the other side,
um Christianity by specifically Catholicism,
which is a whole different beast.

(41:39):
So,
so your own um I mean,
you,
you,
it's,
it's an interesting juxtaposition of writing something so that your audience can understand this community,
as you said,
that you are exploring and celebrating.
Um But then also you're showing that community's perspective on this other that is so different and outside of what they do.

(42:07):
Yeah.
That based on research,
you know,
Catholicism that was mining my life for a story because in college,
I had a Catholic boyfriend and I was like I said,
I was raised very secular but proudly Jewish.
And so we spent a lot of time asking each other questions,
you know,
what does Catholicism,
Catholicism say about this?

(42:28):
What is Judaism say about that?
Um And actually,
I will say that I sort of credit that college boyfriend with prompting me to delve deeper into my own identity because he would ask me questions and I would be like,
I don't know the answer.
And he once said to me,
how can you be so Jewish if you don't know anything about it?
And I was like,
momentarily offended.
And then I was like,
that's a really good question.

(42:48):
And so,
you know,
he,
that relationship prompted me to,
you know,
go talk to the rabbi at my synagogue.
And I even,
I even went to church with him and I loved it.
And I'm like,
why did I love a Catholic service?
Oh my God.
Is this a sign?
And I talked to a priest and the priest was like,
he wasn't trying to convert me.
He was like,
well,
you know,
you should pursue what these questions are.

(43:09):
And,
you know,
and one of my closest friends is actually Irish um raised Irish Catholic in Dublin.
And um we've been friends now for 30 years and she lives in London now.
But,
um you know,
in the beginning when we would visit each other,
she would come to America,
I would go to Ireland.
Um and I would stay with her family and I actually went to church with them on Good Friday.

(43:30):
And I wrote an essay about it,
um,
because I loved it.
It was so beautiful and it was a ta service which is a town in France and it was very,
it was candlelight and poetry and music.
It was really,
really beautiful and it reminded me a lot of some of the events in my childhood synagogue.
And so I wrote an essay about what's a Jewish girl from the Midwest doing in a Catholic church in Ireland on Good Friday.

(43:52):
And um and it was just to try to figure out what I thought.
And I remember her mom whom I love saying,
you know,
the priest would be upset with me,
but Lynn really should not convert.
She's very Jewish,
you know,
like it just so I've had those experiences and um and one of my best friends who reads every novel of mine before it comes out,
she was raised like,

(44:13):
um she um I call her rabbi Katie because she's so much more protective of my religion than she,
you know,
then,
and she's not even Jewish.
And so I've had those relationships and um and they're really pivotal in my life.
And so,
um that's where it came from for the book.
And I do think that the,
the Catholic ex-boyfriend um was inspired by my Catholic ex boyfriend too.

(44:37):
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
because that setup is very similar.
Did you,
you know,
when I'm with friends or people or,
you know,
and hear interesting stories.
My husband is always the first to say,
oh,
watch out that's going to end up in a book.
And I'm like,
yeah,
I'm filing it away.
Do you,
uh,
do your friends sort of think that?
And does anybody ever worry or tell you?

(44:57):
No,
I don't want you to write a story about this.
Um So yes.
Um everywhere I go,
I see a possible story and I have like a document of potential books.
I want to write based on those experiences.
Um But my friend Catherine in um in London now she does.
She's so good at not being on social media.
I just admire that so much.

(45:18):
Um And she does not want to be on social media.
So even when we visit each other,
she's like,
I really don't want the pictures posted.
I get that.
And I had wanted to write a book called Letters from Katherine because we've been literally writing letters to each other for 30 years.
Even though we can be digitally connected,
we still write letters.
Um Yeah,
it's and I have like a bread box of her letters from the nineties until now.

(45:43):
And um she didn't say not to do it,
but she did.
But I,
but I do know how she feels and I'm like,
what I,
what I is it that important?
You know,
like I think it's a really cool story and it could be a memoir frankly.
Um,
but I don't,
I don't know that she'd be comfortable and I don't think that I can write many other books.
So I'd rather have a friendship than,

(46:04):
than a book about it,
you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
so that,
that's an interesting point that we,
I think we all need to think about and that is how other people in our lives would feel about having their ideas,
their experiences,
you know,
whatever represented in our writing and to be just very cognizant of that and,

(46:26):
you know,
empathetic,
I guess about,
you know,
respecting that about the people that we surround ourselves with.
Yes.
But I also caution,
a lot of my students are nervous to write things because they might offend somebody in their life or whatever.
And I think there's a fine line.
So I think that when you're writing your story,
um if there's characters from your family or whatever,

(46:49):
who are in it because an event happened or something,
um I think you have every right to write about it and other people have to own their own reactions.
So,
like I've written a lot of essays about my dad.
I haven't really written as many about my mom and she was offended once that I wrote an essay about my dad,
she was offended that it wasn't about her.

(47:10):
And I,
I feel bad and I love my mom.
You know,
but that's really not something I need to worry about because that story was about my dad and it was about my relationship with him.
And so I think that,
um,
yes,
there's a fine line.
Like I,
I don't think I'm going to write a book about my relationship with Catherine.
But,
um,
but if I wrote an essay about writing letters and a friendship built on that,

(47:34):
I don't think she would really mind,
but I also have so many things to write about.
So I do think it's a fine line and I think very carefully about writing about another person.
So,
like I had a mentor once who said to me when my first marriage ended,
and I was writing all these essays about how,
you know,
my ex husband was like to blame for everything and she's like,
well,

(47:55):
it takes two people and it just makes you look like a jerk and I'm like,
ok,
good point.
You know,
like,
and so that was a very strong lesson because now when I write something and I say this other person did something.
The truth is I have to look at.
Well,
what did I do?
What was my role in this?
And I've learned that stories with humility where I examine my own role in things are way more compelling than a story blaming somebody else for something.

(48:23):
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if I write about somebody,
like we went somewhere together and had a meal together.
I don't think there's any cause for being upset about that.
You know.
You know,
if it's like blaming,
that's where I it's,
to me that's a red flag when I go through the revision process and say,
oh,
I'm,
I'm really ranting about this person.
What's that about for me?

(48:44):
And how can I look at that and make sure that's absolutely necessary and it never is.
Yeah,
I have stepped back with some situations where I could write about people and,
and it wouldn't be flattering because it,
you know,
it's my experience and it's what happened and it was significant to me and often it's because of a situation that maybe doesn't favor the other person.

(49:10):
And,
you know,
maybe I don't want to examine it or maybe I do,
but I'm not necessarily writing it for publication either.
So I think it's understanding what your intent is and who your audience is.
And if you're just writing to help yourself understand something that's entirely different than if you're writing an essay and trying to seek publication,
you know,
because you have to approach it,

(49:31):
I think really differently.
I also think,
and I say this all the time in my classes,
just write the thing.
You don't have to do anything with it.
You don't have to show it to anyone.
It doesn't have to go anywhere.
So you don't want to censor yourself in the early stages of writing you just write the thing and then you can always determine later on,
will this see the light of day,

(49:52):
you know,
or did I just need to get it out on the page?
And now I'm good and I can go on to the next thing.
I do think that's super important because otherwise we,
we limit ourselves and we are sort of like editing as we're writing and that is not productive.
So I think,
write the thing and you can always decide where it goes later if it goes anywhere.
Yeah.
And I have two examples of that with my fiction.

(50:14):
In fact,
is we had 22 people in our lives at two different times who were just absolutely awful people,
like terrible,
terrible people and they did some things to us,
to others that,
you know,
were just reprehensible.
And I've put both of those two people in different books and different mystery one in one book.

(50:35):
This person is,
um but ultimately murdered and I don't use her name.
Uh you know,
I've changed things around,
but she is very much.
This is one instance when the person herself is very much the character in the book where,

(50:56):
you know,
that person didn't take on her own persona and become a fictional character because it was really based on this one person and so gratifying and then the other was more recent and it was um this personal situation with this.
Actually,
I was in business with this person in the publishing world and uh he ends up dead also,

(51:19):
but before the story actually happens,
so it's more referred to,
you know,
uh throughout the story,
he's,
he's just part of,
um,
part of the clue that helps,
you know,
the sleuth resolve things.
But,
um,
yeah,
I,
you know,
I've changed things enough.

(51:40):
I obviously didn't use their names that there's no way that I could,
you know,
that they're ever going to be hurt by it or even think that it's them unless they're listening to this podcast.
But it was so fun to do.
I must say.
So.
There are instances.
Yeah,
it's totally cathartic.
You know,
I always tell people too that the people you actually write about may never see themselves in it or read it,

(52:09):
read it and say,
oh my God,
that's me.
And you're like,
no,
not at all.
Not.
Right.
Yeah,
because they're not.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
But then other people who do see themselves in your work and you're like,
no,
no,
sorry you weren't in there.
So,
you know,
like,
you can't do anything about that.
People are going to see what they're going to see and,
and that's their issue.

(52:30):
Really?
Yeah.
So funny.
All right.
So,
I have,
um,
one big question here for you and that is what do you say to somebody who wants to write,
wants to pull from their life and,
you know,
write essays for themselves,
for publication,

(52:50):
for whatever reason,
or even to put into fiction,
but they don't know how to zero in on any particular story where you see stories all around you,
that person doesn't.
And I have my own techniques for how I teach that in my writing classes and in my memoir class and also how I approach it.
But I would love to hear how you approach that in,

(53:13):
in a response to somebody who has that sort of a perspective or,
you know,
mental block or just a,
a struggle.
Yeah.
Um Well,
you know,
in my classes,
I always do writing prompts and sometimes writing prompts um can be about something totally different and you end up,
it takes you back to something you wanted to write about.

(53:33):
So that's kind of cool.
Um And I do think that um that's the best way to start is by taking a class or being part of a writing community um doing something like Julia Cameron's the artist's way,
which gives you prompts to write about every day.
Um You know,
anywhere that you can find just something that's going to ignite that.

(53:56):
And then I think in time you start to see that these topics pop up everywhere.
Um And I,
I just think the best thing to say is like,
you know,
what are you curious about?
What questions do you have?
Because that's what drives me,
you know,
my husband and I were in New Orleans for a wedding a few years ago.
And we had breakfast at a place that had these like gorgeous bottles on the top level of the bar.

(54:16):
And I just asked the bartender,
you know,
what are those bottles are so pretty?
And it turns out they were like a specific artist and there's a whole story behind it and they had the whole collection and there are very few places that have like all eight in the,
in the series.
And so I was so curious and I'm like,
what a cool story this would be.
And so I like jotted it down on my list of maybe potential novels one day about those bottles in some way,

(54:38):
something happens and who knows?
So like it's just asking questions and being curious about what you see and you never know where it's gonna take you.
Yeah.
And to your point that you start with a prompt or you start with an idea or a memory or a thought or whatever and you end up writing something entirely different.
One of the first things that I asked my students to do is to write the story of their name.

(55:00):
So how did you come by your name?
How did your parents choose it?
And inevitably that story leads somewhere else altogether because it opens up this floodgate of,
you know,
uh people surrounded in your life at that time and what that name means to you and where that has taken you or,

(55:22):
you know,
just,
it takes you off into these different directions and it's so fascinating to read these stories and then when we talk about them and share them,
everybody is like,
oh my gosh.
Yeah,
it didn't actually end up being about my name at all,
but just a little starting point is all you need to take you somewhere.
Absolutely.
In um,
one of my signature writing classes Finding your voice.

(55:44):
I always start by talking about origin stories.
So we always think that like my life begins when I was born,
but actually every life starts in the middle of two other lives.
And so your origin story is,
yes,
it's your origin.
But there were other lives happening into which yours sort of began.
And that's a really different way to look at your parents,

(56:05):
you know,
like who were they at that moment that they came together to create you?
And um so II I talked to them about writing about that origin story,
you know,
like write about,
well,
who were they as individuals?
Not as your parents,
what was happening when you came into being?
And that can take you in so many directions.

(56:25):
It's really,
it changes your whole perspective.
Yeah.
So enlightening and can be so beautiful,
can open up.
Who knows what kind of experiences and emotions and opportunities?
100%.
Yeah,
and traumas and like,
oh wow,
I went down that rabbit hole so,
you know,
like,
it could also give you understanding too,

(56:45):
like,
oh,
this is what was going on?
Oh,
ok.
Now I get it.
And I think that's the most exciting part about writing is when it takes you somewhere you didn't expect to go,
whether it's in some sort of narrative or creative nonfiction or whether it's in your own fiction,
writing,
those aha magical moments and however they materialize,

(57:06):
I think are the best part of writing.
I agree.
Yeah.
Writing to me is just the most fun I can ever have and it never ends.
I can always start a new story.
And um yeah,
I could live with words every single day,
just reading books and writing them and it's a good life.
You never run out.
Yeah,
it is a good life.

(57:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And on that note,
I think we will wrap it up.
I've so enjoyed my conversation with you,
Lynn.
Thank you so much for joining me on the Writer Spark podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
It has been a lot of fun.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark Podcast.

(57:48):
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot Writer Spark academy.com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.
Happy writing.

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