Reasons Why Every Author Needs an Editor

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The importance of having an editor as a freelance editor myself.
I know how essential it is.
Most of my books have been traditionally published,
which means I had a built in editor with each series when I first self published or indie published.
And even though I am a freelance editor myself,
I knew how vital it was to have someone else read my books.

(00:22):
I'm too close to my work to see the holes that may be there to recognize the places I might need more character development or the spots where I've put in too much narrative and not enough dialogue.
So,
yeah,
I'm here to tell you that an editor is important even for someone like me who's written 35 more than 35 novels and is an editor myself.

(00:43):
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon.
And this is the writer spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,

(01:04):
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.

(01:26):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina town through Writers Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner.
As you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.

(01:54):
Welcome to the Writer Spark podcast today.
I want to welcome my guest,
Donnelly Moulton,
who is a poet,
a Yogi and an author.
And we are going to talk about the importance of having an editor.
Nice to meet you.
It's nice to meet you.

(02:14):
This must keep you busy.
Oh,
it does.
Yeah,
I have no shortage of a to do list.
It's very,
very long.
You can imagine.
It's a daunting task.
I even just think about it now.
Yeah,
it's fun though.
It's fun.
I enjoy it.
Ok.
So the,
the podcast is geared toward new writers,

(02:36):
aspiring writers meant to help them kind of a pain it forward kind of a thing,
you know,
when I started out there just was not the breadth of information available and it was a steep learning curve.
And so I am just,
you know,
hopefully helping people skip the line a little bit and get what they need more quickly than I was able to get what I needed.

(02:58):
You know,
and we have such a big appetite for that.
When we're a new writer.
The dream seem so elusive.
Right.
Yes.
Oh,
my gosh.
I remember just wanting to devour everything I possibly could.
Yeah.
And just talking to anybody I could and getting everything that they could give me and just feeling like I was absorbing it.

(03:21):
And it was,
yeah,
it was wonderful.
And I think that's particularly true when it comes from a reliable source,
from a place that they can trust is going to have good information and credible information because I know there's a lot out there that's trying to sell you stuff that doesn't necessarily have substance.
Yes,
so true.
So true.
And I feel like we all have so much to offer if we would just talk to each other and listen to each other.

(03:47):
And,
you know,
this is just a good way to do it.
Is your stuff traditionally or Indie published traditionally,
traditionally?
Ok.
Um But did you work with a freelance editor before you submitted it or what was your didn't?
And I didn't in part that's not quite true.
I didn't in part because I am an editor.

(04:09):
I also had a friend who is an edit,
who went through a line edit for me.
Um So in essence,
I did have an editor.
Yes,
but it was a quid pro quo kind of relationship.
I do her books,
she does mine and then my publisher had an editor as well.
OK.
So you're interested in talking about this subject?

(04:31):
Where does it come from?
From your traditional editor that you worked with or from the fact that you are?
I'm a freelance editor also and that's just a whole um you know,
another offshoot of what I do.
But you know,
it's,
it's very rewarding to work with people and bring their stuff to,
you know,
to the next level.

(04:52):
Well,
I think,
and I think you,
you,
you're spot on,
I think that I find a couple of things I find that there's a general lack of awareness maybe about what an editor does.
And for those people who,
who understand editing,
what they're often thinking of is the copy editing or proofreading process.

(05:14):
But there's a whole upfront um type of editing that happens before you ever get there.
Um So it's,
it's about kind of informing individuals um in terms of what do we mean by editing and then why do you need an editor?
And I think reassuring people that it's got nothing to do with the quality of the writing.

(05:36):
It's got to do with the fact that we all need an editor,
right?
And in some ways,
I think the bigger you are,
the more you rely on the editor because you want that book to be just as good as all the other books that your fans loved,
right?
As they say,
you're only as good as the next book you write or the next album you produce or whatever it is.

(05:56):
Exactly.
Ok.
Let's backtrack just a second.
Um I like to hear the origin stories of the people I chat with.
So I would love to hear your origin story.
I'm super interested in your yoga path because I also study yoga and I have my 300 hour certification.
Um I know you're in,
in Nova Scotia.

(06:17):
So I don't know if it's different there but kind of unregulated over here,
but still,
it's a good thing to have.
I don't actually teach anymore,
but I,
I do love it so much.
But anyway,
we'll talk about that as well as your origin story in terms of how you became a writer.
So I think for me,
um,
writing was one of those things that I always liked to do,

(06:39):
but I'm not sure that I thought you could do anything with it in terms of life,
goals or careers.
When I landed in university,
I worked for the university newspaper,
which was fabulous because you got to cover stories.
You wouldn't act,
you know,
generally cover so you were thrown into worlds you wouldn't normally enter and you had an editor every step of the way.

(07:04):
So you saw the before and the after.
So you got to appreciate how you could improve your writing.
But you also got a name out there and I realized the value of that name awareness.
What the um work at the Dalhousie gazette did was also lead me into paid freelance journalism.

(07:28):
So I did that for most of my career,
I wrote for accounting magazines and legal magazines and cannabis magazines.
You know,
if they were paying reasonable rates and were good publications,
I was more than willing to tackle the subjects that they threw at me.
And so the the fiction and and creative kind of stream has always run parallel with that.

(07:51):
I think often when we think about liking to write,
we think about,
well,
I want to write poetry or I want to write short stories or I want to write novels and those are wonderful and absolutely important things to do.
But what I discovered about the non fiction writing was,
it's the,
it's the career path that's going to pay you at least out of the gate,

(08:13):
it's going to pay you,
right?
So the two have always run hand in hand as a freelance journalist,
you are edited every step of the way.
So the beauty of that is you learn to appreciate the editor.
The important thing though is you also learn to not take it personally.
This doesn't mean that I am a lousy human being who should never go outside ever again.

(08:36):
Right.
It means that I am just a good writer and now I'm going to be a better writer because someone's editing me.
Right.
Well,
and also editing for a particular purpose,
you know,
if you're editing because you only have 600 words and you've written 1200 then that's,
you know,
that's one reason to edit and pare down.

(08:56):
If you're writing for a different publication,
then you need some other,
you know,
there's some other purpose and that's going to inform the editing in a different way.
And I think that's an important point is that that and,
and freelance writing does this for you wonderfully,
it introduces you to different styles.
So one publication may be a little bit more formal,

(09:17):
one publication may be a little bit more breezy.
One publication may want all kinds of additional details.
Another may not,
some may be quote heavy,
some may be quote thin.
Um And you learn to adapt to those styles at the same time that you're developing your voice across all of those styles.

(09:37):
That's so interesting.
I,
I just wrote,
if I do some freelancing to some copywriting and I just wrote an article for an editorial website on that very subject,
you know,
how to kind of discover your voice for nonfiction,
but then also the different styles that you can take as you approach a diff,
you know,
different articles for different outlets essentially.

(09:59):
And it's good to challenge yourself.
Years ago when I was in university,
I belonged to a poetry group that was led by one of the English props.
And we would get together after classes on one day of the week and he would give us little exercises or we would look at things that other people had written.
But at one time he said,

(10:19):
I think that,
that what we'll do for next week is that you'll all write a sonnet.
Well,
the room just went,
oh,
a sonnet.
Nobody writes sonnet.
It's like,
you know,
we're not Shakespeare.
And he said,
but it's about discipline,
it's about forcing yourself into uncomfortable situations and to see how you can write in those situations because as a writer and as an editor,

(10:40):
we don't want to get overly comfortable,
we want to be challenged.
And so that was an important lesson.
You know,
that's so true.
I think that a lot of people do just get comfortable in what they write.
And that's very fine.
And I think a lot of genre fiction is that way,
you know,
when a romance writer and you're with Harlequin and you can write 70 80 100 books following that sort of formula and that is absolutely fine.

(11:04):
But then there are other people who,
who don't want to write the same thing over and over and So that becomes a challenge to now,
how do I grow or how do I change?
How do I move out of that?
How do I move into something else?
Different paths?
Absolutely.
And,
and the point you're making is the critical one bottom line.
It has to be good writing and good writing starts with the writer with the person who's crafting it and envisioning it and imagining it.

(11:32):
But it's taken to the next level by the editor.
And in order to write 100 books for Harlequin,
for example,
you would have to be a good writer,
otherwise they won't keep contacting you.
So yeah,
excellent point there.
You mentioned that there are different types of editing that editors do.

(11:53):
So copy editing,
line editing,
developmental editing,
let's just start there and kind of explain what each of those types of editing means and why they're important,
what they do for you as an author.
And I think that this is kind of an area where new writers and aspiring writers often get confused because we use this word editing as if it's,

(12:20):
you know,
like food,
it encompasses everything it could possibly encompass.
And so I know when I often get contacted by new writers asking if I will do some editing for them,
invariably they're talking about copy editing or proofreading,
right?
Um And those are absolutely important things to do and they're not necessarily bad places to start depending on where you are in your writing and depending on your experience as a writer,

(12:48):
but to your point,
the developmental editing or what in Canada,
the Editors Association of Canada calls substantive editing is that piece that says,
OK,
here it is.
It's,
you know,
the yolk is fresh out of the egg,
it's raw.
Um All the ingredients are there.
But are they in the right order?
Are you missing something?

(13:09):
Have you overdone something?
Have you underdone something?
Have you confused us?
Have you inspired us?
So it's,
it's that broad 30,000 ft lock.
Um That's critically important for writers because we can't see that we're so close to it.
We've thought about it for so long and so hard and somebody else comes along and they give us a whole new perspective.

(13:32):
There is,
I think also perhaps just a little bit of reality here and,
and I've had um writers say this to me,
oh God,
I hate that stage because somebody is going to say,
oh no,
you really need to flesh out that character,
which means you have to go back in and do more work just as mentally.
You're thinking I'm at the end,
someone's coming along and telling you no,

(13:54):
the end is not quite as near as you thought it was.
That's funny.
But I love the editing process myself.
I think that the first right is the most challenging,
learning those,
especially if it's a new,
like first and series or a stand alone book learning those characters really honing in on the plot,
understanding the subplots and all the sub characters and all of that to me that is so hard.

(14:17):
And,
but when I get to the revision process,
I love it because the foundation is there and now I get to build the house and I get to do it how I want to and I get to make it,
you know,
beautiful.
We all like different parts of the writing process,
but that's an important point because I think that,
that um that relishing of the editing process means you're going to spend a little bit more time with it,

(14:40):
you're going to give it a little bit more attention.
I know that um in a,
in a digital age when we can have ebooks published very quickly,
um Many writers feel this pressure to get it out there to get it out there as quickly as possible.
And editing and speed do not usually go hand in hand.

(15:01):
So we often take a shortcut,
but the shortcut doesn't help us in the long term.
That's so true.
I've been guilty of that myself,
you know,
getting behind on a deadline now that I have books that are indie published as well,
you know,
getting behind and rushing it out there and wondering,
well,
was that really my best work or did I,

(15:22):
did I push it and,
you know,
then I will maybe pull back and re re evaluate the editorial calendar that I've created for myself.
And,
you know,
it's important to get ahead I think and to actually use an editorial calendar for yourself if you are Indie published so that you are not writing and turning around and publishing the book that you just wrote.
But that you put that in the queue for process,

(15:45):
for editing and developmental editing,
whether you know,
whoever does that and then copy editing and then a proofread so that,
you know,
it's gonna come out in three months or four months.
But meanwhile,
you're working on the next one.
So you sort of have this cycle that you create.
And I think that you've hit on one of the kind of key components about editing,
editing,
gives you distance and distance only comes with time.

(16:08):
So,
you know,
it's Monday,
you want to have the book out by Thursday,
but we know that it needs to sink in and settle,
it needs to give us a little bit of space.
And a month later,
if we look at that book,
we're going to see it far differently than we did the day after we finished it.
And editors give us that they impose that space on us because they take it away from us,

(16:31):
they bring their view and their insight to it.
But at the same time,
we get to kind of breathe something else for a while and that's good for what we're writing.
That's very good.
And that's such an excellent point because I,
I firmly believe that we need to create that distance and give ourselves that time to almost forget you let those characters go,

(16:54):
let that plot go move on to something different.
Then when you come back to it,
it is fresher and you're able to see it just a little bit more objectively.
And to me that's vitally important and there have been times with my own books when,
you know,
years later I've reread them for one reason or another and I'm,
you know,
turning the pages going,

(17:14):
oh my gosh,
that's so good.
You know,
I,
wow,
I wrote that,
you know,
and then there are other books I'm like,
oh,
gosh,
I wish I would have develop the scene more or I feel like it's like,
even though it's,
it's fine,
it's good and readers love it.
But as,
as me looking at it with a critical eye that time and that distance gives me the opportunity to say,

(17:35):
hm,
that could have used XY or Z and I also like the cycle that you pointed out.
Um,
and,
and it,
it happens only after you've got the first book kind of ready to go.
But it's not like we write the book and then everything hinges on that book.
So while that book is off being edited,
we can start the second book or the third book or the 10th book or we can look at how can we market the book or we can decide,

(18:03):
maybe we want to hunt for an agent.
So I'll do some of the agent hunting law.
So I think the idea is to not let life get suspended while your work is with an editor,
but to continue the writing path and the writing path is the creative path as well as the business and marketing path.
So lots to keep you busy,

(18:24):
um,
regardless of what stage you're at as a writer and then you're getting edited at the same time.
Definitely true.
And I think that it's important for people to understand that unless you are picked up by one of the big publishers and they throw all kinds of money and resources at you,

(18:48):
then really,
it's a question of,
sadly,
volume,
you know,
how many books are you producing?
Because every book that you produce is going to build your back list,
you know,
and that's what readers want,
especially now with indie publishing being so big readers want to have a lot of books.
I have a couple of readers who won't read any books unless there's at least three for them to go to.

(19:12):
So writing that one and throwing it out there,
you know,
however long you edited it or didn't edit,
it's not going to necessarily equate to sales because you've got to keep writing and you're an unknown,
right?
But my publisher was saying to me that,
that one of the things that happened during COVID was that people had time on their hands and that,

(19:34):
rather than just kind of sitting down with a book or watching television,
they decided to do something and much of that something was writing a book.
So there was a whole bunch of new books out there and they attracted a whole bunch of readers.
But if,
as a reader you read a book and you think,
oh,
gee,
I didn't really like that one,

(19:55):
then you're not going to go back to that reader when they have a 2nd and 3rd 1.
So,
while the first one is unlikely to launch,
you know,
into the stratosphere,
it's also important because it's the foundation,
it's a place that most people are going to get introduced to you.
Right.
And so it has to be good.

(20:16):
Yeah.
And I think that that's something I learned later on,
you know,
as we were talking about earlier,
there's so much I didn't know when I started and I didn't have access to that and I didn't have access to the people that could help me in all of the writing groups and things.
Eventually I did.
But I thought my book is written.

(20:36):
It's,
I'm gonna put it out there.
It's gonna be amazing,
you know.
And no,
it,
it's,
it just isn't,
it wasn't,
it didn't do what I had hoped it was going to do.
And it was only later,
you know,
through this learning process and this steep learning curve with the business that you realize it's more than just putting a book out there.

(20:58):
You know,
it's,
it's having a plan,
you know,
it's like anything else you have a plan for what's next and how you are going to,
as you said,
market this and now what is your process for moving forward?
It's not just,
oh,
I've written a book.
I'm going to put it out there now.
I'm going to sit back and wait and see for all the accolades to come.
Wouldn't it be lovely if that happened though?

(21:21):
I think especially for new writers,
the editing process is also an intimidating one because somebody is going to turn around and say,
I think you should do this differently and they might say,
I think you should do this differently.
And it's only a matter of adding a sentence or two or rewriting a paragraph or two.

(21:41):
Sometimes it's a matter of adding a whole new chapter or taking a whole new chapter out or rethinking your plot.
So I think part of what makes us all nervous about editing,
but especially those who aren't used to being edited is this fear that our soul will be crushed,
right?
That we will be told it's not good and that's not what editors do at all.

(22:03):
What they tell you is that here's how it can be better,
right?
If your editor is telling you it's not good,
then that's not the right editor.
Exactly.
You want,
you want somebody who's there by your side,
somebody who is there to work with you and to build your skill and your craft not to put you down,

(22:23):
which means that they have to understand to your point about the instant accolades and the long term plan for the series or for the,
the,
the,
the books you want to write,
moving forward,
they have to understand what it is you want to write and how you wanna write it.
So that the product that you ultimately produce matches the line with that goal.
But it,

(22:44):
it will mean that you have to have a thicker second skin,
right?
That,
that,
you know,
I remember many of the editing books I read say you have that sentence.
That's absolutely just brilliant.
It stands out,
it takes your breath away.
Yeah.
No,
it's got to go,
right.
Because if it's overshadowing all of the other words on the page that much,

(23:04):
then then there's something out of alignment.
So it's those kinds of things you learn as you move forward.
But it can be personally difficult to um to hear.
I learned that the hard way also,
I think probably I got 30 rejections when I was looking for an a an agent.

(23:26):
The first time there were many times I wanted to quit.
I just thought,
oh my God,
I'm terrible.
This is obviously I'm just not meant to do this.
And my husband would be like,
no,
you can do it.
Keep going,
keep going.
Don't give up.
It's really a numbers game first of all,
because what you write is not meant for everybody,
not everybody's going to love it.
And that applies to agents and editors and readers.

(23:49):
So there's that and then there is the fact that this is a career that takes perseverance period.
The end there is no overnight success.
I was doing a reading at a lovely,
lovely library not that long ago.
And I was talking to my publisher about it.

(24:11):
And she said to me,
she said,
Donnelly,
don't worry about sales because with a first book,
it's not about sales,
it's about fan base.
People have to know who you are,
they have to know the kind of book you write and then they'll want to read the things that you've written.
So get yourself out there,
get yourself known and things will grow from there.

(24:32):
But that's contingent upon you.
And to your point about your first book that's contingent upon you knowing that that first book was as good as you could make it.
And so you will build success based on that and understanding that you actually do have to get out there and market yourself writing a book is not only about writing a book and that goes back to the second part of kind of what I learned eventually.

(24:58):
And that is that it is a business.
And that,
although I might have written the most beautiful sentence in the world.
If I need to cut it,
I need to cut it.
I,
I learned not to take it personally.
If somebody didn't like my book or if an editor didn't want to buy my book or if a reader gives me three stars,
you know,

(25:18):
I wasn't,
that was not the book for them,
then it doesn't have,
it doesn't reflect on the quality of my book.
I simply understand that it was not for that person or for those people.
And I stopped letting that get to me emotionally and crushing my spirit.
You know,
when you can separate the personal emotional connection,

(25:40):
you have to your writing from the fact that this is a business that can make all the difference in how you move forward.
It did for me.
And I think that's an important um point for us all to recognize that publishers want good writing.
But what's good writing for one publisher is not necessarily what another publisher wants.

(26:02):
Um Several years ago,
I got,
I got very lucky in that regard.
When I was first starting out,
I had written a short story and I had sent it off um at different times to,
to two different um uh journals and I got an email from one of the journal saying,
thanks Donnelly.
We really don't like this story.
Um We find it a little slow.

(26:23):
We think it could have a little bit more action,
but good luck.
Right.
And the very next email was from the second publisher,
the second journal I'd send it to that said,
oh,
Donnelly,
we can't wait to publish this.
We think it's absolutely fabulous.
It moves quickly.
We identify with scarce and I thought,
but it's the same story.
And one of you loves it and one of you really,

(26:44):
really doesn't love it at all.
So it's got nothing to do with the story or my ability as a writer,
it's got to do with what connected with you.
What's the kind of writing that your anthology produces?
And you're right when you,
when you have that perspective,
it's not so hurtful anymore.

(27:05):
Yeah.
And that comes to when you're trying to market your book as well,
understanding who your audience is based on the actual book that you've written,
not this dream audience that you think you should have.
But what is the audience for the book that you have written?
And you have to try and reach those people?
And that's an important point that I,
one of the questions that I often that I start when I,

(27:27):
when I'm working with a writer,
I'll say,
I'll start by saying,
who's your intended audience?
And invariably the answer is everyone or book readers or adults,
right?
Or people who like mysteries.
And while that's a good place to start,
it's way too broad and we have to start right,

(27:47):
you really have to drill them and narrow it.
And that's good for the editor because they'll have that audience in mind as they're editing.
But it's also good for the author because that will help them with the marketing side of things.
Yeah.
And if you were to go the traditional route,
for example,
and you get an agent,
they need to know that moving forward before they pitch it.

(28:10):
Because when they pitch to editors,
they have to have comp titles.
They have to be able to say who is this book going to appeal to?
That is the target audience.
It is not all women everywhere.
You know,
it is not every reader everywhere,
it is not every mystery reader,
you know,
it just this type of person.
So understanding that is really important and it can also I think help you in your revision process,

(28:35):
knowing who your audience,
who your reader is.
You know,
you create this ideal reader,
right?
Have a picture of them up on the wall with their characteristics,
that's who you're writing this for.
And I think that we often default to the obvious.
So I,
I have a lot of friends who write y a young adult material and without exception,

(28:57):
every one of them will tell me that the big audience for young adult is in fact not young adults but but their parents or their aunts and uncles,
right?
And so as the writer,
you need to think through very carefully,
the book may be about something but that may not actually be the intended audience as a reader.

(29:19):
So,
are the two aligned?
Are they not aligned?
It's ok if they're not,
but it has to be clear in your mind because that will guide both the writing and the editing process.
And I find it very interesting that a lot of the writers I work with don't know that,
you know,
that that's a question you ask or something that you talk about and,

(29:40):
and it,
it takes a discussion because it's not something they know right away necessarily.
I find it interesting.
I think as writers,
we start with the idea,
we start with the idea for a plot or a character or a place and we dive in and we get excited and we want to build on that.
And so we're thinking about the story,
we're not thinking about the person who will read the story and that's OK when we're drafting it and,

(30:06):
and,
and writing it and kind of putting the pieces together.
But at some point,
we really need to sit back and think,
ok,
here's my story,
but who's my reader?
Today's writer Spark Podcast is brought to you by Ready Set,
right?
A comprehensive course to help you write the Novel of your Dreams.

(30:28):
There are four robust modules with a total of 27 videos,
lessons and activities that will take you through the entire novel writing process,
check out the ready set,
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Course from writer Spark Academy at www dot writers spark academy.com.
So let's talk about the process of finding an editor.

(30:51):
So when I have somebody reach out to me from my website,
for example,
the first thing we do is email a little bit.
Um and I get a sense of is this the right kind of project for me?
Am I the right kind of editor for them?
If,
if they're writing,
you know,
horror that I am not their editor because that is not something I read,
enjoy reading.

(31:11):
Uh you know,
that it's not a project that I would take on.
So I,
you know,
assuming it is a project that I would take on and it seems like a good fit,
then I have a one on one,
either phone or zoom facetime kind of meeting.
And from there we establish what,
what really do you want because what they think they want or need may not necessarily be what they need.

(31:34):
And so that conversation is really important and then from there,
we kind of map out a plan of how many sessions do we want to start with?
I do a packet of 10.
Um Usually,
and you know,
what do those sessions,
what do we want those sessions to look like?
What are we going to cover?
How are we going to approach it?
I have one client.

(31:55):
She really,
she's,
it's accountability,
you know,
us meeting is accountability for her to write.
And,
you know,
she's got some things going on in her life.
And so that accountability is really,
really important.
I have another client where it's strictly,
you know,
kind of revision.
You submit something ahead of time.
I go through it and then we discuss.
So what is your process?

(32:16):
I know there are many processes.
That's mine.
But what's,
and I think mine is very similar and you're right,
because there's two types of requests that are very common.
And the the the first type of request is the one that you were talking about where the book is in development.
It's growing part of meeting with the editor is also motivation to produce the pages to be discussed at that meeting.

(32:39):
Um I do find a lot of people come after the book is done,
right?
At least after the book is done in their mind.
And then that initial conversation is what are you looking for by way of an edit?
Right?
And we'll talk about the different kinds of editing and what you'll get from each of the different kinds of editing and they may land on.

(33:01):
Well,
I would like a copy edit or a proofread.
And at that point,
I usually haven't read much of the book.
So as I get into the book,
then I have to see whether I'm aligned with that.
If I think no,
I really think you need to take a step back and go to a substantial developmental edit,
then that's a different kind of conversation.
If we're aligned in terms of.
Yes,
I think you're ready.

(33:22):
I think a copy edit would be great.
Then I will explain to them.
Here's what I do by way of copy editing.
And what I usually do is I will take the first two or three pages and I will edit it to show them what they're going to get from me and sometimes it's too deep.
Um,
they're not ready for that kind of level of feedback.

(33:44):
Um,
sometimes it's exactly what they want,
invariably.
It's a surprise.
They are a little bit surprised at what you caught at what you questioned,
um,
at what you suggested.
And so I think that helps to reaffirm the value of the editor.
It also lets them know that much of this is going back to them.
I'm not fixing it.

(34:04):
I'm saying to them,
how about this or you need to do more of this or let's take a look at this.
I mean,
obviously we're tightening sentences and we're,
we're making things more concise,
but a lot of it's gonna fall back to them and so they have to be prepared for that as well.
Yeah,
agree.
I,
I do the same thing.
I take 5 to 10 pages,

(34:25):
especially for,
for a line edit,
you know,
um,
because again,
they need to know what to expect and they need to know that there's,
they're getting the value,
you know,
I mean,
it's not inexpensive to have an editor,
uh line editor,
developmental or substantive edit,
especially I don't do copy editing or proofreading because I know myself and I am not a detail person in that respect.
I need a copy editor and a proofreader because I am a big picture much,

(34:49):
much more.
Um So,
you know,
if that's what they want,
then I,
again,
I'm not a good fit,
but I will give them that five or 10 pages of a line edit or kind of a,
you know,
a little bit of a taste of what a developmental edit might look like and help them also understand that again,
they have to remove the personal,

(35:10):
this is not,
this is about the writing and it's about,
you know,
they came to me or,
you know,
they're going to an editor,
whoever that is to improve their product,
their story so that it's ready for the next step.
And that is our goal and,
and you know,
that you have to step back and understand this is about the writing.

(35:31):
It is not,
it's not about you,
you know,
it's not about anything personal and that's,
you know,
you've got to make sure that you're getting that point across and that they're understanding that internalizing the beauty,
being able to have those regular meetings is that you can give the positive feedback as well as the recommended changes because I know that when they look at a screen with their document and there's a million and one track changes your heart just plummets,

(35:57):
right?
So that,
that one on one becomes very important.
It's also important for me as the editor because sometimes I remember this years ago,
um a friend of mine wrote a,
an article about a,
a well known woman in her community and she talked about this woman being very grandmotherly and everybody gravitated towards the woman with the blue hair and the woman was absolutely outraged about the blue hair.

(36:24):
Everything else in the article was just fine,
but the blue hair just sent her over the top kind of thing.
And I find that in the editing process,
something that I think might be fairly simple and straightforward.
The author is,
is now tense and backed into a corner.
And I'm thinking,
ok,
this is important to them.
Why is it important to them?
Let me understand more about how this fits into their overall vision for this book.

(36:50):
And sometimes there's a compromise and sometimes there isn't.
And as an editor,
I'm perfectly prepared to say,
ok,
I've made the suggestion,
I've explained the suggestion.
Um But ultimately,
you're the author,
you get to decide what changes,
what stays the same,
what gets added and deleted.
Right.
Absolutely.
We are not rewriting the book for our clients.

(37:11):
We are making those suggestions,
guiding them on the path.
But ultimately,
it is up to them,
what they want to do with it.
As an aside,
I have done a lot of interestingly enough editing for phd thesis and,
and master thesis.
But,

(37:31):
but academically the work was fine,
but their thesis advisor or someone on their committee suggested that they should get a professional editor.
And I do sometimes find that bless their hearts because they've been working on this now for three or four years.
They're so close to the end.
Those three letters are looming,
learned and they will come to me and they'll say,

(37:52):
you know,
I've got some grant money.
I've identified,
I need an editor.
Can you do that?
Absolutely.
Let's see how we can work on this.
And that's the group.
I find that that is most likely to expect that what I'm actually doing is rewriting it.
Um,
and that's a learning process when I say it's not my work.

(38:13):
It's yours.
I can guide you through it.
I can give you an example of how it needs to change.
But no,
I'm not starting at the beginning and going through to the end and rewriting your document,
right?
And as an editor,
it's important,
you know,
that goes back to that first meeting.
It's important for us to understand what they need and make those expectations realistic.

(38:34):
I have another client that,
you know,
they thought they needed an editor.
But after talking with them,
what they needed was a ghostwriter,
you know,
they had kind of the,
the skeleton of book and they needed it to be fleshed out.
And so I became their ghostwriter slash developmental editor all in one because that's what it turned out they needed.

(38:54):
But again,
they didn't know that until we had that process.
And then it's,
you know,
in the contract,
we make it quite clear what,
what our goal is and what we're trying to do.
But yeah,
making sure that the expectation is understood on both sides.
And I think that gets back to the point you made earlier about the writer needs to come in as informed as possible.

(39:17):
And I know that we're so keen to move forward and so keen to get this done that we see the name of an editor much like we see the name of an agent and all of a sudden we're contacting them when we haven't looked to discover that they're really not necessarily,
as you say,
you don't do horror,
no point in a,
in a horror writer sending you an email,

(39:39):
it's the wrong editor for what they need.
So I think that that writers need to take a little bit of time to look around.
And one of the issues that,
that's so easy today is,
do you want someone that you can meet with and have a coffee?
So IE do you want who's going to physically be able to do that or more?

(39:59):
And more,
of course we're doing it,
um,
online,
but for many people,
they want that kind of closer trusting relationship that you get in person.
So those are the kinds of things you have to think about.
Do I want local,
um,
do I want to meet face to face?
Do I want more of a distance,
um,
relationship?
And the other thing is you'll have to,

(40:20):
to,
um,
familiarize yourself with payments because invariably the,
the,
the number one response when they,
when they get a quote is,
oh,
I didn't think it would be so much,
didn't you look it up at all?
Yeah.
Right.
There on my website here is the fee schedule.

(40:43):
It's not that we're trying to take advantage of you.
It's just that the editing process in some ways can be almost as lengthy as the writing process,
right and the back and forth and the developing of that,
that,
that trust and that interactive,
um,
relationship.
So,
I think for your own peace of mind as a writer,
you want to get the right fit and you also want to go in knowing how long will this likely take and how much will this likely cost?

(41:11):
So,
then you can decide upfront whether you have that time and whether you have that budget.
Yeah.
And you know,
yeah,
do your research.
But that means actually reading all the way through the web page,
looking at the testimonials,
whatever it is to make sure that,
yeah,
before you even reach out that,

(41:31):
you know,
this is a good fit.
I had a guy,
this was hilarious.
I had a guy that um reached out about editing and I said,
sure,
you know,
send me your 1st 5 to 10 pages.
It was like right out of the gate B DS M Erotica like high octane.
And I was like,
I am not the editor for you,

(41:53):
but here I can refer you to a couple of people that I think would be a better fit.
It says on my website,
the kinds of things that I do edit and I don't explicitly say I don't edit XY or Z.
But you know,
if you read between the lines,
then it's clear,
kind of what I do.
So,
yeah,
it's interesting to see which I'm glad to hear you say that you one responded and to offer him some suggestions because I find one of the complaints that I hear in the writing community a lot is that they send a query out to an agent or a publisher and never hear back.

(42:30):
It's,
it's gone into the void.
Sometimes they know it's been received.
Sometimes they don't even know that I think that hats off to the editing profession,
generally that if somebody reaches out to them,
you will get a response.
It may not be the response that you were hoping for.
Um It may say,
look,
I don't think I'm a fit,
but at least there will be a response and you can move on to plan B well,

(42:54):
and I think somebody who says I'm not a good fit for you.
I mean,
I think you really have to respect that rather than,
oh,
I'm going to do it and I just want the paycheck for it,
you know,
rather than,
you know,
you need somebody that's more well versed in this particular genre or something.
And I think that that's an interesting point.
One of the things that I often talk to authors about because I distinguish between editing and fact checking.

(43:20):
Right.
And so I'm always trying to,
to get them to let me know whether they want fact checking included into this because that can take a lot of time and effort,
you know,
because,
because fact checking is,
is checking the spelling of every title you use to make sure it's correct.
But it's also fact checking to,

(43:40):
to confirm that.
Yes,
actually in the 17 hundreds they were drinking coffee in Philadelphia because maybe they weren't,
maybe coffee didn't arrive until after the Boston tea party or something.
Right.
That's funny.
Yeah,
I had one book that in one of my book series and I mentioned a vehicle,
a car that this one character had parked in a garage for decades.

(44:04):
And I'm trying to think what the model is.
I can't even remember,
but I,
you know,
I made it some certain color and I got an email from a long time reader of mine,
but readers pay attention and she was like,
you know what,
my father and grandfather,
you know,
were mechanics and da,
da,
da,
da.
And I used to do this with cars and that car didn't have that color in that year.
I was like,
ok,

(44:24):
my,
and that was a traditionally published book and I didn't,
you know,
I,
I don't know why I just assumed it did.
But my copy editor who would be the one to fact check that,
you know,
they're the ones that create the,
the,
um,
uh,
book Bible essentially.
Or,
you know,
the style sheet didn't catch it either.
And it's the thing you just assume.

(44:47):
Right.
I just finished my first historical mystery,
which is way outside my normal comfort zone.
And at the end I have my character getting ready to move.
And so he and his wife are putting everything in a trunk and it's very sad.
And I'm thinking,
oh,
it's wonderful and just a little tear and then I think,
wait a minute,
did they have trunks back then?

(45:08):
I don't know if they had trunks.
I just,
you got to put it in something.
Right.
If you,
if you're moving from one spot to it's the kind of stuff you,
it's not a new haul,
a cardboard box.
How about that?
Exactly.
Yeah.
And they certainly didn't have metal hinges.
Right.
So,
no.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's the kind of thing that we don't,
it's so specific that we don't often think to question it.

(45:32):
And so that second pair of eyes can bring that to.
And,
you know,
even after the developmental,
the line edit,
if you're traditionally published,
you get that kind of all at once.
So your editor,
right,
then you have your copy editor and then you have a proofread and you get your galleys and they're reading it too still.
Mistakes happen.
You know,
I mean,
they just,
they just do perfection is hard to attain.

(45:54):
But you know,
we do our best,
right?
I sometimes joke when someone points out to me that they found a typo,
I said,
oh,
good for you.
That's why we put it in there.
It was a test was passed.
I think that that's the point we're trying to make to writers is that you can't do it all.
It's just too much.

(46:15):
You can't be the creator,
you can't be the developer,
you can't be the inspiration.
You can't be the proofreader,
the copy editor,
the substantive editor.
At some point,
you need new fresh eyes to look at your work,
right?
And as an indie author also,
you know,
so my first several series are um traditionally published and then I wrote one that's indie published.

(46:38):
I have readers who have become just great friends and I have several that I turned to for my proofreading.
So they're the last stop.
You know,
I've gone through the editing as a writer myself,
even though I was an English teacher,
English major,
I've written 35 books.
I am a freelance editor.
I still need an editor.

(46:59):
So I've gone through that process myself.
It's been copy edited and then I send it to these two readers who are amazing proofreaders and invariably they catch a few little things that slip through all of those cracks.
You know,
it's very true.
And the first reaction we have when that happens is how could I have missed that?

(47:20):
And that's the reaction that new writers need to recognize because that's the reaction that says this is exactly why you need an editor or a proofreader or a substantive editor because of that.
Oh my God,
I missed that.
Yeah,
I have a funny story about that.
So Valerie Burns is a friend and I've had her on this podcast.

(47:41):
We talked about the importance of having a diverse set of characters.
And she was telling me the story once about one of her book series which has Two Poodles in it.
And they're based on two of her own Poodles and she,
you know,
named them whatever I can't remember now,
Oreo and something uh throughout the book until about halfway and unconsciously subconsciously,

(48:04):
she switched them to their actual names,
which is Cash and something else and didn't even realize she was doing it and then her editor read it and I don't think he realized until like the second time around or,
you know,
somebody down the line said,
ok,
wait a second,
these dogs names change because they were her dogs.
So she just,
you know,
made that made that little transition and wasn't even aware of it.

(48:27):
But,
you know,
it was caught thankfully,
I think by the copy editor before it went out.
But,
you know,
we just,
we're very close to our work,
which is why we need somebody else to look at it.
But you raise an important point and that is that the editing process generally shouldn't be kind of put together in a bowl and done all at once because at the,

(48:49):
at the point that when you're,
you're line editing,
you're thinking about,
does it flow?
Does it make sense?
You know,
are those the best words?
Right?
Have I,
have I built the tension that I wanted to build,
you're not necessarily looking at,
did I spell the name consistently throughout?
Did I use?
That's your proofreading ST that's at the very end?

(49:10):
And so when we start to kind of merge them together,
we're more likely to miss something,
right?
So again,
it's a time issue that life is going to go a little bit more slowly than you wanted it to as if it isn't glacial enough in the publishing industry.
The only thing that I find that that's a little impressive is that with the digital publishing,

(49:34):
they can get us out there much more quickly.
Than we could ever get out there before.
So there's,
there's some what you,
what you lose on the editing and you make up for,
on the,
on the not having to print.
And that is very true.
One tool that I love is grammarly.
I don't know if you use it,

(49:55):
but I use the free version and that is plenty for me.
Um,
but yeah,
it catches,
you know,
probably 80% of the little typos and the little,
just the little errors that I might make along the way,
which is huge.
I mean,
that's just a huge life life saver to know that these things are caught and are not going to slip through the cracks.

(50:15):
And maybe there are going to be other things that the copy editor finds,
but there's not going to be that much of it because grammarly has done its job first.
So highly recommend grammarly.
Is there a tool um app anything that you use that's helpful?
I think you're absolutely right.
I think I depending on what I'm doing and,
and,
and um and my ultimate goal for that,

(50:38):
I'll use a number of different tools,
but I think that what I'm trying to do is not interfere with the writing process and things like grammarly don't do that.
They just highlight a potential problem or you save it to the end and you do your review and it highlights everything what I would recommend that,
that people do is,

(50:59):
there are national um editors associations um in Canada and the US,
there are regional and local editors associations and I find that they have wonderful um websites that give people all kinds of information.
They not only explain the editing process and give you a sense of,
of fees that you can expect,

(51:19):
but they will also often direct you um to um the tools that you can use.
But I think we're,
we're all better off when we use the tools.
Even the,
the spell check,
grammar check and style check on Microsoft Word is an advantage.
You know,
I'm always amazed when,
when I get a manuscript that has its spelled its apostrophe.

(51:44):
And I'm thinking,
but you couldn't have even had the basic spell check turned on because basic spell check would tell you that's not even a word.
Yeah.
So it's those kinds of things and those are important when you're going out to agents and publishers because it's a credibility issue.
It's,
well,
if I didn't take the time with this,

(52:06):
did I take the time with the other elements in the book?
Right.
It's a professionalism that you're presenting through your work.
So that leads me to,
all right.
So back kind of to that first question was if you are going the traditional route,
do you need an editor?
And I think the answer is maybe yes or maybe a copy editor,

(52:27):
at least a couple of proofreaders,
something because you do want to put your best foot forward and you don't want to have somebody reject you agent or editor because of something like spelling mistakes or,
you know,
just,
just little errors that should have been caught and little things that you could do to take an already good 10 pages and make them a great 10 righteous right.

(52:53):
But again,
for many people,
and I know when we're starting out,
these are issues,
it's about time and it's also about money.
But I think you're right,
especially with that first book and that first outreach,
you really want to be sure that it's as good as it can possibly be because otherwise,
once that door is closed with a publisher or an agent,

(53:15):
it's closed.
And so it's really hard to open,
if not impossible.
So try to invest a little bit more upfront to get greater payback on the other end.
And I think it comes down to understanding what you want out of this.
Are you doing this?
Because you've had a dream to write a book and you just want to write a book or is this a hobby?

(53:39):
You know,
and you want to just see what will happen or is this something that you really want to try to make a career of?
And you want to see where you can take it.
And if the answer is the latter,
then you have to just like anything else be willing and able,
hopefully to invest up front in order to make your product the best that it can be before you go on to that next step.

(54:02):
You know,
if,
if that's your goal is,
you know,
to publish it,
whether the or traditional it's about making it the best it can be.
And that probably includes an editor.
And I think that you,
you raise a critical issue and that is that as editors,
as editors,
as writers,
we really want our work to resonate with readers.

(54:25):
And that means that we have to grow as a writer and it's very hard to grow if we're insular and isolated,
if it's just us and our computer and our ideas and our words,
right?
It's hard for us to see how it could have been better or how it could have been different or how it could have been longer or shorter.
And editors bring all of that to the process.

(54:48):
So what it really does is it really helps us longer term as writers to become much better writers.
It's that aha moment when you look at a change that an editor has suggested and you go,
oh yeah,
I should have seen that.
That's great.
Yeah,
exactly.
And I think that um before we close just a little bit of a warning about who you take that advice or those edits from,

(55:14):
you know,
a critique group can be great,
but they are not the same most likely as an editor might be.
So you have to,
you know,
take with a grain of salt,
what people are telling you about your book unless you are,
have gone to somebody who you trust,
you know,
who you develop a trusting relationship with and you know,
that they are helping you make your book better rather than,

(55:36):
you know,
a critique group who everybody who is at your same level who maybe can't help you take it to the next step.
I was recently a judge in a national writing competition and they had books across all categories and as judges,

(55:58):
they shared with us some of the feedback,
not from necessarily our books,
but just generally across the country feedback that they had received from individuals who had submitted their book.
And there was one person who said,
you know,
I really didn't find the judge's comments very helpful.
Um They pointed out a couple of things,

(56:19):
but I showed this book to 45 people and they loved it and no one pointed that out.
And I thought,
yeah,
and I'm going to guess,
but one of them was your sister and one of them was a good friend and one of them was a colleague from work.
One,
all people who like you and are just thrilled to see you in the pages that you've crafted.

(56:40):
But also none of them who are looking at this professionally from a craft of writing point of view,
right?
And that's the difference if I give my godmother a copy of my book,
it's going to be the best book she's ever read.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But it doesn't mean that it is actually the best book she's ever read.
That's where the editor comes in.

(57:02):
Yeah.
Precisely.
All right.
Well,
gosh,
Donelly,
this has been such a great conversation.
I love chatting and,
you know,
I think as freelance editors we have a lot to learn from each other too.
Writers have a lot to learn from each other.
We are these conversations I think are just so important on so many levels.
So I appreciate talking to you with you as a another,

(57:24):
you know,
editor for uh face to face.
But also hope we met our listeners are have taken something away from this conversation.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
And that's the hope that we walk away a little bit more informed than we sat down.
Yep.
Exactly.
Thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate it and we will see you in the pages.

(57:46):
Oh,
that's lovely.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot writers spark academy.com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.

(58:10):
Happy writing.

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