November 4, 2020 • 23 mins
America is a nation divided politically - and in search for illumination on the road ahead. In this episode, Tom Brokaw offers the view from Montana and speaks with his longtime friend, Mike Barnicle.
Their friendship was forged on the campaign trail decades ago, and since then the two have vividly chronicled America’s story. Now, Brokaw and Barnicle on: bridging the divide and American resolve after the election; why America is better positioned for success when women take charge of our institutions; the dangers of news professionals living in sheltered bubbles; their own remarkable families and, “What would Tip O’Neill think of Donald Trump?”
Follow Tom Brokaw at @TomBrokaw
Follow Mike Barnicle at @MikeBarnicle
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I Heart Radio Presents Tom Brokaw now here this. I
don't think there's anybody in America who is not concerned
warring and also thinking about what's going to be our future. Obviously,
we're a deeply divided country, as this election has reminded
(00:22):
us once again. I've been covering politics for more than
sixty years, and I wanted to think about where we
go from here. And I turned immediately to my very
close friend, Mike Barnicle, the great, great calumnist and the author,
and we're at the same age. He grew up in
a blue collar family in Boston. I grew up in
(00:43):
a working class family in South Dakota, and we're bounded
in so many ways. And I thought maybe the two
of us could discuss this the future in a way
that would be helpful to a lot of people. And
I think thanks to Mike, when we succeeded Mike. When
(01:05):
we first met, it was night. The political trails across America,
and especially in California, they're a handful of front reporters,
free networks, and a couple of hangers on and that
was it. Now it is a vast universe. It's impossible
to actually quantify how many people are involved in all
(01:26):
the campaigns and producing the coverage of them, and where
it goes from here. Don't know who to trust who
not to trust. But at the same time, it is
available to every citizen in those country to have a voice.
Are we better off now than we were then? Or
how would you change things? Well, you know, you're absolutely
(01:47):
right about the changes, I mean literally another century. You know,
it's an interesting question term. We've been given so many
gifts as reporters, as writers, the accessibility two things, the
instantaneous access to things. And yet I sometimes think, and
this makes me sound like an old guy, I understand
(02:08):
that I miss eye contact, you know, I miss being
on the road during campaigns. I miss knocking on doors,
and I don't think enough of that is done today.
There is some tremendously talented people in the business, as
we both know, both in the electronic area of the business,
electronic media as well as the print business. But there's
(02:30):
no more deadlines for instance, you know, I mean, you know,
you get something, you file it right away online, it
goes in. You don't have to use a phone to
call anybody. And we used to call it the blower
at the Boston Globe. You'd call the number and a
guy would answer, and you dictate the column or the
story into the blower and somehow it would appear in
the paper the next day. But I miss so much
(02:52):
about what it used to be. We used to I think,
have much more access as individual report as a columnists.
You had much more access to the candidate or the
person in public office. There was much less fear on
their parts and dealing with you, I think than there
is today. I mean that says more about them, I
(03:13):
think than it does us. But on the whole, would
I change anything, No, I don't think i'd change much
because it's so easy and it's available for you to
use whatever gifts you might have. But I would change
if I could. I would change the concentration that networks
(03:35):
and newspapers have on getting everything in as quickly as possible.
You know, again back to the no more deadlines thing.
You got the story, file, the story. And I think
one of the treasures that you have or had then,
and that I had then, was you'd find something that
you thought was newsworthy, a person or whatever it was,
(03:56):
and you had the ability and the time to do
something that I don't think people do often enough now
in our industry to think you could sit down, have
a cup of coffee and think about what you just saw,
what you just heard, who told you what, what event
you just covered, and what impact it had on on
(04:18):
the surroundings that you were covering. But now it's boom,
get it in, get it in, get it on. You
are a part of the legendary Boston school of politics.
What do you think your friend Tip O'Neill and the Kennedys,
let's think of Donald Trump? Oh my god. You know,
in all the years I knew Tip O'Neil, he only
(04:40):
disliked and used the word I hate him with one individual,
New Gang Ridge. That was the only guy I ever
heard him describe in personal terms that he dealt with
in politics in such a phrase. Never heard anything else.
I mean. He had enormous friendships across the aisle. Jerry
(05:02):
Ford was one of his best friends. Bob Michael, the
congressman from Illinois, one of his best friends. I can
remember Tip telling me Jerry Ford was president for about
a week. In the first couple he had to the
White House for dinner was Tipp and Millie O'Neill. With
Jerry Ford and Betty Ford and Tiptoe men the story
(05:24):
that they're sitting around having dinner, and halfway through dinner,
Jerry Ford leans across the table and looks at Tip
and says, Tip, do you have any idea what the
increase in salary and this job that I have now
is going to do for my pension? You know? And
I think we need more people in public life who
(05:45):
think about things like that. I mean, when was the
last time you heard the word pension in this country?
You know? But Jerry Ford did so. I think Jerry Ford,
I think Tip O'Neill would be astonished that Donald Trump
could survive five and prosper in the business of politics
the way he is. Ted Kennedy, I think, despite the
(06:07):
fact that he lived a lot longer, sadly than Tip
O'Neill did, and was current in politics up until a
few short months prior to his death, I think he
too would be stunned at the resiliency that Donald Trump
has head. I mean, when you think about the baggage
that Donald Trump has carried, never mind through his private
business life, through the presidency, through three and a half
(06:31):
short years of his presidency, and has survived to the
point where we'll look what happened Tuesday in the in
the in the election just concluded. It's just an amazing story.
I think both Tip and Teddy would be stunned. Going
into this election. All the pole said that Trump was
going to get his head handed to him this time.
All the polls indicated, and this is the year for
(06:53):
the Democrats. It's a very very tight contest. What do
you think happened where people just whine to the pollsters
because they didn't want to be seen as supporters for
Donald Trump, or as the system so bent you can't
rely on it anymore. I think I think it's parts
of all three that you just mentioned. I think probably
some people did like to pollsters. I don't think there's
(07:15):
much doubt about that. But I think the pollsters and
sadly a lot of the media missed the culture of
the country. And again, sadly, and I say this with
great sadness, I think there's a huge number of Americans
who the only thing that Donald Trump more successfully completed
than anything else he's completed in his short presidency thus far,
(07:39):
is he sold the idea, the reality that there is
fake news and that we took a huge hit on
his selling that and that became part of his brand.
As we both know, and out there in America, far
from both coasts, far from the East coast, the West coast,
far from the big cities and the big metropolitan in
(08:00):
the areas, there are millions of people who resent watching
their TV or sometimes reading the papers, but most of
the time watching their TVs, watching cable news. They don't
want to be told what to do with their lives.
They don't want to be told what's right and what's wrong.
You know, what's a good thing and a bad thing.
(08:20):
And they resented. And that resentment I think bubbled up,
has sat there just beneath the surface, sometimes not beneath
the surface. And as a result, what you get is
this stunning achievement, and I do call it an achievement
by Donald Trump getting as many votes as he did
in as many states as he did, and we all,
(08:41):
most of us, were blind to it. What's this election
also demonstrated, however, is that the schism in American politics
is very deep and strong, life felt on both sides,
that in the long run, it seems to me, is
not good for the country. There are times when we
have to come together and find a common path to
(09:01):
a higher place, not just in our political life, but
we're our place in the world. Do you think that
we're at a fixed place now, we're this kind of
division will just be with us forever. No, God, I
hope not, I pray not that it will be with
us forever, because if it is with us forever, this
country will be forever changed. But again, get back to
(09:23):
the word resentment. I think part of the reason that
Donald Trump was elected in two thousand sixteen, This is
just my theory. I think he was, among other things,
an expert in resentment. How to scratch that sore that
a lot of people have out there, and largely people
living again away from the coast, away from the great
(09:45):
metropolitan areas. So the resentment that's out there now towards
the media and the resentment that a lot of people have,
and a lot of them it's a legitimate resentment. They
feel left out, left behind and left without thinking the
someone's going to come to help them in their lives
with whatever problems they have. And Trump managed to capture
(10:06):
that feeling of resentment and capitalize on it. But no country,
certainly not the Republic, and I think the United States
of America can survive for long. I don't think with
both sides thinking the other side is bad or evil
or wrong on everything. And that's where we are today.
And listen, we have to come up with a with
a penicillin or shot or some fix for the virus.
(10:31):
That's job number one, clearly. But secondly, for the next
president of the United States, I think is what you
just talked about. We've got to find a way to
heal the deep, deep divisions that exist in this country. Well,
you know, I'm talking to you from Montana, where I
spent a lot of time. I grew up in South Dakota,
but I was also a gold plated resident of New
(10:52):
York City and Washington, d C. And I had a
big job with the network. I now look at the
network coverage from a different person. Spect everybody that I
saw in the air last night as gifted as they
all were working for m BC. They all live within
twenty minutes of each other, and their definition of life
really was based on where they live, who their friends are,
(11:13):
and out here in Montana, for example, and outs going
to the Great Plains in the Southwest. I always encounter
something entirely different. They have a different perspective on life.
Are we just fixed in that kind of a formula
or is there a way to address that as well?
To have different parts of the country have an appreciation
for other parts of the country. Well, that's way above
(11:36):
my pay scale. But I will tell you this. In
the hours that have preceded us doing this podcast together,
I've made several stops I am still friendly and familiar
to in with a number of people who lead extraordinarily
ordinary lives. I've been so far this morning, to the
(11:56):
gas station, to the grocery steward, to the dry cleaners,
to the drug store, and in a couple of stops.
At the gas station in particular, I was talking to
a couple of guys who run the gas station, and
they were filled with anxiety over who was going to
be the next president of the United States. And you
didn't have to talk to them about who they voted for,
(12:16):
who they didn't like. It was just an anxiety for
the country who's gonna lead us? And I think part
of the problem with our business, the media business, And
you know, I kind of hesitate to frame this because
it's so broad. Uh, We attract the most talented people
now and have for several years. And you're absolutely right.
(12:38):
You know. In newspapers you sit down and and I
love most of them, and they again, they do a
great job, but they finished writing what they're gonna write
and everything, and they end up talking to one another
in the newsroom or in the coffee shop. They go
home with one another or have dinner with one another,
and the first thing they say when I see you, Boyton,
(12:59):
that was a great story you wrote today, Or Tom,
that was a great thing you did on TV today,
you know, And as an echo chamber in our business,
I don't know how to fix that. I don't know
how to fix that. Part of it, I think is
how were you raised? You know, I know how you
were raised. I think you know how I was raised.
You know. I can remember vividly, vividly, when I was
(13:22):
about ten years of age walking with my father on
days that I didn't have to go to school on
Thursday afternoons, when I would walk with him to the
paymaster's windows of the public Works department of the city
where we grew up, and he would hand the paymaster
a brass coin, a little brass coin about the size
of a half dollar. It had his employee number on it.
(13:42):
He would hand him the brass coin, and the paymaster
through the window would hand my father his weekly paycheck
in a small Manila envelope, and he would open the
envelope and take the cash out and put it in
his pocket. And I can remember the number on that
mindera envelope. His weekly pay was forty seven dollars a week.
(14:04):
And he died young. He died when he was fifty
years of age. And I have pictures of him, and
I showed the pictures. I used to show the pictures
to my kids, and I used to have them take
a guess, is how old my father was when that
picture was taken. Now they were kids, they were the
same age I was when I was at the paymaster's window.
They look at the picture and they say seventy and
(14:26):
I say, no, it was forty three when that picture
was taken. But it was the toll of work that
put the age on his face and the anxiety about
making no money or not enough money. And I don't
know how many people in our business come from backgrounds
like that anymore, but I think in retrospect it's a
healthy thing. It gives you a window into a world
(14:50):
that people ought to be looking at. And I think
that's part of what happened on an election day. I
mean the frame of reference. You know, some guy driving
a award f one fifty truck with trunk signs and
American flags off the back of his truck. He said, Oh,
he's a racist, he's a bad guy. We don't know that.
We don't know what he's carrying, what burden he's carrying
(15:12):
his family, lack of money. We just don't know, and
we should know. Let's talk about women. You and I
have and I have both remarkable women, great great friends.
Your wife especially, was just in an international survey of
the most important women in the world and she finished
a head of Queen Elizabeth. Yeah she did, and Meredith
(15:37):
broke off Frankly, can do everything. You know. She's about
to be eight, and she just got back from a
three day horseback ride into the mountains and part of
Yellowstone Park where they set up their camps and cooked
their meals and took care of their horses and got
back again. Then, as you know, she can turn around.
And also she's a bridge master. She can put together
(15:59):
the best umbrangers in New York City. Ann and Mereth
are so much ahead of the two of us. Yeah,
what do you think will happen for women now that
we have one who is the vice presidential candidate, others
who are like Anne and Meredith in terms of what
they'll bring in terms of civility to American life, whatever
(16:20):
the area is. Well, you know, I I've always thought
and now I know for certain haven't been married for
nearly forty years to my wife, who's has the best
judgment of any human being I've ever encountered in my life.
I've always thought that women do better at governance than
(16:41):
men do. I think they are unafraid to make rational
judgments that men are sometimes afraid to do. I don't
think if there were a woman as president in two
thousand and two, two thousand and three, that we ever
would have invaded Iraq. I think the role of woman
in this culture and in this country has certainly been
(17:03):
enhanced greatly each and every day for a couple of decades.
But I don't think enough and I think the role
of a female vice president Kambla Harris, I think it
would be you know, a huge, huge bonus for the
country and for Joe Biden, your wife, my wife, I
think a representative of a of a generation of women
(17:24):
that has been a long time coming. They still have
a way to go, There's no doubt about that. But
it makes no sense to me. Is an individual looking
at a younger woman U in her thirties says she
went to law school or business school, working for a
large corporation, or teaching school or doing whatever. Who has
(17:44):
to pay a penalty for being pregnant, you know, maybe
not getting the job because you know she's pregnant or whatever.
Things like that. I mean, but it's it's greatly improved.
I don't think there's any question about that. But it
has to improve even for the We have to be
more open to the role of women in power as CEOs,
(18:05):
as the United States senators, as vice presidents. We have
to be more open to that because it's good for
all of us. Now, let's talk about children for a moment.
Here in Montana, our middle daughter Jose left us to
fly back to Geneva, where she lives with her two
children and her husband, who has got a big job
at the u N. But while she was here, she
was looking over investment opportunities and found a great one
(18:28):
and got involved in it right away. I didn't know
what an investment was at her age. Frankly, you know,
I was just living on paycheck to paychecks, good paychecks,
no question about it. But she just really takes the
measure of everything going on. Her eldest sister is the
head of the San Francisco Fire Department Medical Corps, and
her younger sister is in Los Angeles who is a
(18:50):
highly regarded therapist for a lot of people and a
lot of trouble in these days. I know your boys,
and I just think, well, I would do it, just
hand over the country to them, because they're so enterprising
and they're so fearless and they don't play by our
old rules at all. No, they don't. They don't, and
(19:10):
that's a good thing. Uh. You know. I I tell people,
younger people who I know, who we both know, and
the business just getting married, still working hard, obviously. Uh
you say, hey, congratulations, you just had a baby boy
or whatever. And I always tell him, you know, that's
the best job you'll ever have, and it's the hardest
(19:32):
job you'll ever have. It's a forever job being a parent,
and uh, you know, our boys, like your daughters, have
worked hard and they know things that amazed me. I
mean just just amazed me. And their skill at doing
their job, their skill at negotiating a business deal stuns me.
Their skill at For instance, Nick is the head of
(19:55):
the company. He and his brother owned the company. Obviously,
Colin is the who thinks the big thoughts about you know, films,
and he's writing a novel on the side. And Nick
is the kind of guy. He goes in and gets
the job, He goes in and makes the pitch to
make the movie, and uh not because he's my son,
but he goes in. You're gonna listen to him because
(20:17):
you're gonna like him because he knows how to do it.
It's like it's like your daughters. I mean, I've gotten
into debates with with a couple of your daughters about
politics and everything like that, and it's a debate much
their their way ahead of me, the way ahead of me.
And you know, I think there was a shyness about
people of our generation in approaching power or approaching stories.
(20:40):
I think when we first started doing it, you're you know, Jesus,
is it okay? If I go in here is it
okay if I asked him that because of the way
we were raised, there was a hesitancy. There's no hesitancy
in our kids, and that's a good thing, all right.
I'm an Adelus story. I remember being at the Olympics
in Canada and one of you her sons was working
on so he immediately let his older brother know that
(21:02):
I had gotten the tickets to the Canadian US hockey game. Yeah.
And the next thing I know, I go down to
the lobby and there's his older brother and he said,
Uncle Tom, I knew he would get me tickets as well.
So I just blew out can tell anybody on anything? Yeah, Well, finally,
(21:24):
are you optimistic about the future? I am? I am,
but I'm an optimist by nature, Tom, you know, And
and part of it is, you know, I was raised
like you were. You know, learn how to take a punch,
learn how to get up off the canvas when you're
on the canvas. And at some point in our lives,
everyone you're gonna be on the canvas. You might just
(21:44):
drop to one knee, you might be on your flat
of your back, but you know, you can hear your
father and your mind's eye in the background, saying get up,
and you have to get up. I am optimistic. I
think this country is the kind of country and the
people of the kind of people who in the mettle
what is happened, no matter what's going on, Now we
get up, we go forward. I was telling someone who
(22:06):
is very active in politics and American politics. I was
telling the story about Teddy Roosevelt Jr. On D Day,
something that you're intimately familiar with, landing on Utah Beach,
having begged for the for the chance to do it.
I think he was fifty three or fifty four years
of age. That was a bad heart condition, bad heart condition.
(22:28):
Brigadier general walking with his cane along the beach. They
were pinned down by two machine gun nests on Utah Beach.
It was not nearly as bad as Omaha Beach, but
when you're getting shot at, it was bad. And walking
along the beach tapping the soldiers lying on the sand
with his cane, saying get up, boys, get up, boys.
The boys gut up and they made that charge, and
(22:49):
they cut a hole up top of the Utah Beach
enough for tanks and trucks to move forward, moved through.
I think it was the first breakthrough they had along
the beaches. And he was dead of a heart attack
like a week later, at fifty three or fifty four
years of age. You got the Medal of Honor, and
I was telling this person in politics you should read
his story because what he did to those men on
(23:11):
the beach you have to do to this country. You
have to say, get up, get going. Perfect Michael. Thank
you very very much. Tom. It's an honor to talk
to you always. You'll get over it. I already have
I Heart Radio Presents Tom Brokaw now here this. I
don't think there's anybody in America who is not concerned
warring and also thinking about what's going to be our future. Obviously,
we're a deeply divided country, as this election has reminded
(00:22):
us once again. I've been covering politics for more than
sixty years, and I wanted to think about where we
go from here. And I turned immediately to my very
close friend, Mike Barnicle, the great, great calumnist and the author,
and we're at the same age. He grew up in
a blue collar family in Boston. I grew up in
(00:43):
a working class family in South Dakota, and we're bounded
in so many ways. And I thought maybe the two
of us could discuss this the future in a way
that would be helpful to a lot of people. And
I think thanks to Mike, when we succeeded Mike. When
(01:05):
we first met, it was night. The political trails across America,
and especially in California, they're a handful of front reporters,
free networks, and a couple of hangers on and that
was it. Now it is a vast universe. It's impossible
to actually quantify how many people are involved in all
(01:26):
the campaigns and producing the coverage of them, and where
it goes from here. Don't know who to trust who
not to trust. But at the same time, it is
available to every citizen in those country to have a voice.
Are we better off now than we were then? Or
how would you change things? Well, you know, you're absolutely
(01:47):
right about the changes, I mean literally another century. You know,
it's an interesting question term. We've been given so many
gifts as reporters, as writers, the accessibility two things, the
instantaneous access to things. And yet I sometimes think, and
this makes me sound like an old guy, I understand
(02:08):
that I miss eye contact, you know, I miss being
on the road during campaigns. I miss knocking on doors,
and I don't think enough of that is done today.
There is some tremendously talented people in the business, as
we both know, both in the electronic area of the business,
electronic media as well as the print business. But there's
(02:30):
no more deadlines for instance, you know, I mean, you know,
you get something, you file it right away online, it
goes in. You don't have to use a phone to
call anybody. And we used to call it the blower
at the Boston Globe. You'd call the number and a
guy would answer, and you dictate the column or the
story into the blower and somehow it would appear in
the paper the next day. But I miss so much
(02:52):
about what it used to be. We used to I think,
have much more access as individual report as a columnists.
You had much more access to the candidate or the
person in public office. There was much less fear on
their parts and dealing with you, I think than there
is today. I mean that says more about them, I
(03:13):
think than it does us. But on the whole, would
I change anything, No, I don't think i'd change much
because it's so easy and it's available for you to
use whatever gifts you might have. But I would change
if I could. I would change the concentration that networks
(03:35):
and newspapers have on getting everything in as quickly as possible.
You know, again back to the no more deadlines thing.
You got the story, file, the story. And I think
one of the treasures that you have or had then,
and that I had then, was you'd find something that
you thought was newsworthy, a person or whatever it was,
(03:56):
and you had the ability and the time to do
something that I don't think people do often enough now
in our industry to think you could sit down, have
a cup of coffee and think about what you just saw,
what you just heard, who told you what, what event
you just covered, and what impact it had on on
(04:18):
the surroundings that you were covering. But now it's boom,
get it in, get it in, get it on. You
are a part of the legendary Boston school of politics.
What do you think your friend Tip O'Neill and the Kennedys,
let's think of Donald Trump? Oh my god. You know,
in all the years I knew Tip O'Neil, he only
(04:40):
disliked and used the word I hate him with one individual,
New Gang Ridge. That was the only guy I ever
heard him describe in personal terms that he dealt with
in politics in such a phrase. Never heard anything else.
I mean. He had enormous friendships across the aisle. Jerry
(05:02):
Ford was one of his best friends. Bob Michael, the
congressman from Illinois, one of his best friends. I can
remember Tip telling me Jerry Ford was president for about
a week. In the first couple he had to the
White House for dinner was Tipp and Millie O'Neill. With
Jerry Ford and Betty Ford and Tiptoe men the story
(05:24):
that they're sitting around having dinner, and halfway through dinner,
Jerry Ford leans across the table and looks at Tip
and says, Tip, do you have any idea what the
increase in salary and this job that I have now
is going to do for my pension? You know? And
I think we need more people in public life who
(05:45):
think about things like that. I mean, when was the
last time you heard the word pension in this country?
You know? But Jerry Ford did so. I think Jerry Ford,
I think Tip O'Neill would be astonished that Donald Trump
could survive five and prosper in the business of politics
the way he is. Ted Kennedy, I think, despite the
(06:07):
fact that he lived a lot longer, sadly than Tip
O'Neill did, and was current in politics up until a
few short months prior to his death, I think he
too would be stunned at the resiliency that Donald Trump
has head. I mean, when you think about the baggage
that Donald Trump has carried, never mind through his private
business life, through the presidency, through three and a half
(06:31):
short years of his presidency, and has survived to the
point where we'll look what happened Tuesday in the in
the in the election just concluded. It's just an amazing story.
I think both Tip and Teddy would be stunned. Going
into this election. All the pole said that Trump was
going to get his head handed to him this time.
All the polls indicated, and this is the year for
(06:53):
the Democrats. It's a very very tight contest. What do
you think happened where people just whine to the pollsters
because they didn't want to be seen as supporters for
Donald Trump, or as the system so bent you can't
rely on it anymore. I think I think it's parts
of all three that you just mentioned. I think probably
some people did like to pollsters. I don't think there's
(07:15):
much doubt about that. But I think the pollsters and
sadly a lot of the media missed the culture of
the country. And again, sadly, and I say this with
great sadness, I think there's a huge number of Americans
who the only thing that Donald Trump more successfully completed
than anything else he's completed in his short presidency thus far,
(07:39):
is he sold the idea, the reality that there is
fake news and that we took a huge hit on
his selling that and that became part of his brand.
As we both know, and out there in America, far
from both coasts, far from the East coast, the West coast,
far from the big cities and the big metropolitan in
(08:00):
the areas, there are millions of people who resent watching
their TV or sometimes reading the papers, but most of
the time watching their TVs, watching cable news. They don't
want to be told what to do with their lives.
They don't want to be told what's right and what's wrong.
You know, what's a good thing and a bad thing.
(08:20):
And they resented. And that resentment I think bubbled up,
has sat there just beneath the surface, sometimes not beneath
the surface. And as a result, what you get is
this stunning achievement, and I do call it an achievement
by Donald Trump getting as many votes as he did
in as many states as he did, and we all,
(08:41):
most of us, were blind to it. What's this election
also demonstrated, however, is that the schism in American politics
is very deep and strong, life felt on both sides,
that in the long run, it seems to me, is
not good for the country. There are times when we
have to come together and find a common path to
(09:01):
a higher place, not just in our political life, but
we're our place in the world. Do you think that
we're at a fixed place now, we're this kind of
division will just be with us forever. No, God, I
hope not, I pray not that it will be with
us forever, because if it is with us forever, this
country will be forever changed. But again, get back to
(09:23):
the word resentment. I think part of the reason that
Donald Trump was elected in two thousand sixteen, This is
just my theory. I think he was, among other things,
an expert in resentment. How to scratch that sore that
a lot of people have out there, and largely people
living again away from the coast, away from the great
(09:45):
metropolitan areas. So the resentment that's out there now towards
the media and the resentment that a lot of people have,
and a lot of them it's a legitimate resentment. They
feel left out, left behind and left without thinking the
someone's going to come to help them in their lives
with whatever problems they have. And Trump managed to capture
(10:06):
that feeling of resentment and capitalize on it. But no country,
certainly not the Republic, and I think the United States
of America can survive for long. I don't think with
both sides thinking the other side is bad or evil
or wrong on everything. And that's where we are today.
And listen, we have to come up with a with
a penicillin or shot or some fix for the virus.
(10:31):
That's job number one, clearly. But secondly, for the next
president of the United States, I think is what you
just talked about. We've got to find a way to
heal the deep, deep divisions that exist in this country. Well,
you know, I'm talking to you from Montana, where I
spent a lot of time. I grew up in South Dakota,
but I was also a gold plated resident of New
(10:52):
York City and Washington, d C. And I had a
big job with the network. I now look at the
network coverage from a different person. Spect everybody that I
saw in the air last night as gifted as they
all were working for m BC. They all live within
twenty minutes of each other, and their definition of life
really was based on where they live, who their friends are,
(11:13):
and out here in Montana, for example, and outs going
to the Great Plains in the Southwest. I always encounter
something entirely different. They have a different perspective on life.
Are we just fixed in that kind of a formula
or is there a way to address that as well?
To have different parts of the country have an appreciation
for other parts of the country. Well, that's way above
(11:36):
my pay scale. But I will tell you this. In
the hours that have preceded us doing this podcast together,
I've made several stops I am still friendly and familiar
to in with a number of people who lead extraordinarily
ordinary lives. I've been so far this morning, to the
(11:56):
gas station, to the grocery steward, to the dry cleaners,
to the drug store, and in a couple of stops.
At the gas station in particular, I was talking to
a couple of guys who run the gas station, and
they were filled with anxiety over who was going to
be the next president of the United States. And you
didn't have to talk to them about who they voted for,
(12:16):
who they didn't like. It was just an anxiety for
the country who's gonna lead us? And I think part
of the problem with our business, the media business, And
you know, I kind of hesitate to frame this because
it's so broad. Uh, We attract the most talented people
now and have for several years. And you're absolutely right.
(12:38):
You know. In newspapers you sit down and and I
love most of them, and they again, they do a
great job, but they finished writing what they're gonna write
and everything, and they end up talking to one another
in the newsroom or in the coffee shop. They go
home with one another or have dinner with one another,
and the first thing they say when I see you, Boyton,
(12:59):
that was a great story you wrote today, Or Tom,
that was a great thing you did on TV today,
you know, And as an echo chamber in our business,
I don't know how to fix that. I don't know
how to fix that. Part of it, I think is
how were you raised? You know, I know how you
were raised. I think you know how I was raised.
You know. I can remember vividly, vividly, when I was
(13:22):
about ten years of age walking with my father on
days that I didn't have to go to school on
Thursday afternoons, when I would walk with him to the
paymaster's windows of the public Works department of the city
where we grew up, and he would hand the paymaster
a brass coin, a little brass coin about the size
of a half dollar. It had his employee number on it.
(13:42):
He would hand him the brass coin, and the paymaster
through the window would hand my father his weekly paycheck
in a small Manila envelope, and he would open the
envelope and take the cash out and put it in
his pocket. And I can remember the number on that
mindera envelope. His weekly pay was forty seven dollars a week.
(14:04):
And he died young. He died when he was fifty
years of age. And I have pictures of him, and
I showed the pictures. I used to show the pictures
to my kids, and I used to have them take
a guess, is how old my father was when that
picture was taken. Now they were kids, they were the
same age I was when I was at the paymaster's window.
They look at the picture and they say seventy and
(14:26):
I say, no, it was forty three when that picture
was taken. But it was the toll of work that
put the age on his face and the anxiety about
making no money or not enough money. And I don't
know how many people in our business come from backgrounds
like that anymore, but I think in retrospect it's a
healthy thing. It gives you a window into a world
(14:50):
that people ought to be looking at. And I think
that's part of what happened on an election day. I
mean the frame of reference. You know, some guy driving
a award f one fifty truck with trunk signs and
American flags off the back of his truck. He said, Oh,
he's a racist, he's a bad guy. We don't know that.
We don't know what he's carrying, what burden he's carrying
(15:12):
his family, lack of money. We just don't know, and
we should know. Let's talk about women. You and I
have and I have both remarkable women, great great friends.
Your wife especially, was just in an international survey of
the most important women in the world and she finished
a head of Queen Elizabeth. Yeah she did, and Meredith
(15:37):
broke off Frankly, can do everything. You know. She's about
to be eight, and she just got back from a
three day horseback ride into the mountains and part of
Yellowstone Park where they set up their camps and cooked
their meals and took care of their horses and got
back again. Then, as you know, she can turn around.
And also she's a bridge master. She can put together
(15:59):
the best umbrangers in New York City. Ann and Mereth
are so much ahead of the two of us. Yeah,
what do you think will happen for women now that
we have one who is the vice presidential candidate, others
who are like Anne and Meredith in terms of what
they'll bring in terms of civility to American life, whatever
(16:20):
the area is. Well, you know, I I've always thought
and now I know for certain haven't been married for
nearly forty years to my wife, who's has the best
judgment of any human being I've ever encountered in my life.
I've always thought that women do better at governance than
(16:41):
men do. I think they are unafraid to make rational
judgments that men are sometimes afraid to do. I don't
think if there were a woman as president in two
thousand and two, two thousand and three, that we ever
would have invaded Iraq. I think the role of woman
in this culture and in this country has certainly been
(17:03):
enhanced greatly each and every day for a couple of decades.
But I don't think enough and I think the role
of a female vice president Kambla Harris, I think it
would be you know, a huge, huge bonus for the
country and for Joe Biden, your wife, my wife, I
think a representative of a of a generation of women
(17:24):
that has been a long time coming. They still have
a way to go, There's no doubt about that. But
it makes no sense to me. Is an individual looking
at a younger woman U in her thirties says she
went to law school or business school, working for a
large corporation, or teaching school or doing whatever. Who has
(17:44):
to pay a penalty for being pregnant, you know, maybe
not getting the job because you know she's pregnant or whatever.
Things like that. I mean, but it's it's greatly improved.
I don't think there's any question about that. But it
has to improve even for the We have to be
more open to the role of women in power as CEOs,
(18:05):
as the United States senators, as vice presidents. We have
to be more open to that because it's good for
all of us. Now, let's talk about children for a moment.
Here in Montana, our middle daughter Jose left us to
fly back to Geneva, where she lives with her two
children and her husband, who has got a big job
at the u N. But while she was here, she
was looking over investment opportunities and found a great one
(18:28):
and got involved in it right away. I didn't know
what an investment was at her age. Frankly, you know,
I was just living on paycheck to paychecks, good paychecks,
no question about it. But she just really takes the
measure of everything going on. Her eldest sister is the
head of the San Francisco Fire Department Medical Corps, and
her younger sister is in Los Angeles who is a
(18:50):
highly regarded therapist for a lot of people and a
lot of trouble in these days. I know your boys,
and I just think, well, I would do it, just
hand over the country to them, because they're so enterprising
and they're so fearless and they don't play by our
old rules at all. No, they don't. They don't, and
(19:10):
that's a good thing. Uh. You know. I I tell people,
younger people who I know, who we both know, and
the business just getting married, still working hard, obviously. Uh
you say, hey, congratulations, you just had a baby boy
or whatever. And I always tell him, you know, that's
the best job you'll ever have, and it's the hardest
(19:32):
job you'll ever have. It's a forever job being a parent,
and uh, you know, our boys, like your daughters, have
worked hard and they know things that amazed me. I
mean just just amazed me. And their skill at doing
their job, their skill at negotiating a business deal stuns me.
Their skill at For instance, Nick is the head of
(19:55):
the company. He and his brother owned the company. Obviously,
Colin is the who thinks the big thoughts about you know, films,
and he's writing a novel on the side. And Nick
is the kind of guy. He goes in and gets
the job, He goes in and makes the pitch to
make the movie, and uh not because he's my son,
but he goes in. You're gonna listen to him because
(20:17):
you're gonna like him because he knows how to do it.
It's like it's like your daughters. I mean, I've gotten
into debates with with a couple of your daughters about
politics and everything like that, and it's a debate much
their their way ahead of me, the way ahead of me.
And you know, I think there was a shyness about
people of our generation in approaching power or approaching stories.
(20:40):
I think when we first started doing it, you're you know, Jesus,
is it okay? If I go in here is it
okay if I asked him that because of the way
we were raised, there was a hesitancy. There's no hesitancy
in our kids, and that's a good thing, all right.
I'm an Adelus story. I remember being at the Olympics
in Canada and one of you her sons was working
on so he immediately let his older brother know that
(21:02):
I had gotten the tickets to the Canadian US hockey game. Yeah.
And the next thing I know, I go down to
the lobby and there's his older brother and he said,
Uncle Tom, I knew he would get me tickets as well.
So I just blew out can tell anybody on anything? Yeah, Well, finally,
(21:24):
are you optimistic about the future? I am? I am,
but I'm an optimist by nature, Tom, you know, And
and part of it is, you know, I was raised
like you were. You know, learn how to take a punch,
learn how to get up off the canvas when you're
on the canvas. And at some point in our lives,
everyone you're gonna be on the canvas. You might just
(21:44):
drop to one knee, you might be on your flat
of your back, but you know, you can hear your
father and your mind's eye in the background, saying get up,
and you have to get up. I am optimistic. I
think this country is the kind of country and the
people of the kind of people who in the mettle
what is happened, no matter what's going on, Now we
get up, we go forward. I was telling someone who
(22:06):
is very active in politics and American politics. I was
telling the story about Teddy Roosevelt Jr. On D Day,
something that you're intimately familiar with, landing on Utah Beach,
having begged for the for the chance to do it.
I think he was fifty three or fifty four years
of age. That was a bad heart condition, bad heart condition.
(22:28):
Brigadier general walking with his cane along the beach. They
were pinned down by two machine gun nests on Utah Beach.
It was not nearly as bad as Omaha Beach, but
when you're getting shot at, it was bad. And walking
along the beach tapping the soldiers lying on the sand
with his cane, saying get up, boys, get up, boys.
The boys gut up and they made that charge, and
(22:49):
they cut a hole up top of the Utah Beach
enough for tanks and trucks to move forward, moved through.
I think it was the first breakthrough they had along
the beaches. And he was dead of a heart attack
like a week later, at fifty three or fifty four
years of age. You got the Medal of Honor, and
I was telling this person in politics you should read
his story because what he did to those men on
(23:11):
the beach you have to do to this country. You
have to say, get up, get going. Perfect Michael. Thank
you very very much. Tom. It's an honor to talk
to you always. You'll get over it. I already have
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