August 5, 2023 • 36 mins
Ron starts this episode talking about the US Aim act : takes a call on a 99 Suburban where the transmission was rebuilt at 360,000 miles and is acting up again at 400,000 miles : takes a call on a 21 F550 with a fan clutch issue : takes a call on a 23 F150 where the caller is looking for a shop manual on the truck : talks about a Jeep Patriot where people tell her air is getting into the engine.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Ron An Aian Ron, why don't you just treat the
symptom well? Because it's not that I don't treat the symptom,
but I look at the conditions, all right, the conditions
create the symptom.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Big cars lack one Massidravar.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
The Car Doctor. Was that cap off when you took
it apart before we started?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, the line was, there was a line to it.
It was broken.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
It was open, all right, So where's that line now?
You just got to kind of hanging out in space?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
No, I took it off because I couldn't find the
other into it.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Welcome to the radio home of Ron Anian the Car Doctor.
Since nineteen ninety one. This is where car owners the
world overturned to for their definitive opinion on automotive repair.
If your mechanics giving you a busy signal, pick up
the phone and call in the garage doors.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Are open, but I am here to take your calls
at eight five, five, five, nine nine hund and now
running has anybody does anybody? Is anybody aware of the
AIM Act? The US AIM Act. I was reading about
this this week in the trades, the American Innovation and
Manufacturing Act. It gives the EPA authority to regulate refrigerants
(01:18):
that are being used in vehicle AC systems mobile AC systems.
And it's a concern I've got because I've been watching
this in the news. You know, we've seen in the
news where they're talking about Washington is going to they're
coming after our gas stove and you know, our our
other appliances that are in the house, dishwashers, they're changing
a lot of that, so they're coming out. The EPA
(01:39):
has now been given authority as going back to December
of twenty twenty that they're phasing down the availability of
refrigerants for mobile application and they're increasing the price. I
think next year, what are the numbers saying the second
steps a few wants away in twenty twenty four, that's
next year we're going to see a forty percent reduction
in the manufacturing of available refrigerant one thirty four A.
(02:03):
So you're going to see the supply go down, you're
going to see the price go up. So just a
quick tip to make everybody aware that if you're thinking of,
you know, using one thirty four you may want to,
you know, be a little bit aware and stockpile a
little bit but you know, your government hard at work,
so I don't know that that's all the answer is.
Because the bad side of this is, and I'm not
about hurting the environment, folks, but nobody out there is
(02:26):
saying what we're going to use in place of one
thirty four. Nobody's saying, hey, there's an alternative, which is
an obvious concern.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I love these mandates that come down from different places
where they say we're gonna do this, and we're gonna
do that. We don't have an alternative yet, but you know,
here's how we're going to slow you down from using this.
Holy ken, I just want to fix cars. Let's go
over to Brian and do just that. Let's go talk
to Brian about his ninety nine Chevy Suburban and some
transmission issues. Brian, Welcome to the car doctor, sir. How
can I help?
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Well, thanks for taking my phone call.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
You're welcome.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
So, yeah, I bought the car new in nineteen ninety eight,
so it is old. It has a little over four
hundred thousand miles on it now, and at three hundred
and sixty thousand, the transmission went and I had a
transmission rebuilding. So subsequent to the rebuild transmission, the drive
(03:17):
wasn't perfect. It seemed to search for a gear around
forty miles an hour and kind of go up down,
up doown, but it was it was drivable. And then
more recently it's now it you know, it's it's about
forty thousand, maybe forty five thousand since the rebuild, going
(03:37):
into I guess probably changing the second gear. I got
a kick in the pants, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
It about miles an hour, Sure it bangs and then
bangs on that shift right.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
And then just last week it turned into a situation
where between sixty and seventy five miles an hour, it's
it's searching for a year, and don't I don't know
enough about transmissions. I don't know if it's searching for
overdrive or if that's even a thing anymore, or if
maybe the torque converter is trying to lock up and can't.
(04:10):
I don't know enough about the transmission to say, but
it scares me being in say a passing lane with
a semi in the inside, because I'm afraid maybe the
transmission will go on me. So I'm going to need
to go back to the transmission shop and while it
cost me about four thousand for the first rebuild, I
(04:33):
do love the car. I want to keep it, and
I'm not trying to kissel anyone out of their hard
earned money. I don't want them to dread me showing up.
Can can this transmission be rebuilt to a reliable transmission?
Or is it potentially just too old?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So tell me about the trans shop. These are great questions.
And let me tell you something, if you walked into
my shop with that attitude, I'd embrace you, you know,
because that's that's a great attitude to have, because there's
a lot of you know, there's a lot of what
if and potential snakes in the pile here that can
limit whether this trans can successfully be rebuilt. It sort
(05:10):
of depends on the trans shop. Is it a real
old school shop in town a long time, the owner's
kind of got gray hair, or is it a go ahead?
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah? The cellar that the guy, the main fellow who
rebuilds them. Back when they did the rebuild, I told him,
you know, hey, I want to keep this car on
the road and I'll pay whatever you think we need
to do. And I do trust him, and they said
they do the rebuild or he told me he does
the rebuilds himself because he's good at it and he
(05:39):
wants a reliable product to go to drive out the door,
and that's why they don't order in or rebuild. So yeah,
I trust them. It's a four L sixty transmission.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yep, yep, and listen, don't don't don't apologize for the
age of the vehicle. You're talking to a guy who's
got a no for suburban. I've only got ninety thousand
miles on it now, but I did my transit. I
did my trans at fifty five thousand, and you know,
there's a car that there's a car that I changed
it's diaper every day of its life and it's still
puked the trans at fifty five And I still think
about that, and it kind of frosts me a little bit.
(06:12):
So you know, here you are at forty five thousand
miles your conversation, and I don't think it's going to
be a bad one. I think you're gonna be surprised.
I think these guys are gonna want to stand behind
it and do something for you. How many years ago
was it that they did this?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Two years ago, twelve years ago.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So you know, you're kind of on the fuzzy edge
of responsibility for them, like my father. Like my father said,
and you guys have heard me tell you this story.
My father said at I sat at the kitchen table
as a kid, I must have been all of nine
or ten years old, and I heard my father, you know,
tell my mommy was going to be home late the
next night because he had to go back to some
(06:48):
place where he had laid carpeting. My father, being a
good Armenian boy, went into the carpet business. I mean,
that's what we did in the fifties and sixties. And
my father said to my mom. My mom said, well,
why are you going back? That job was five years ago.
And my father said, you know that you only get
one chance to annoy a customer, and you know there's
you've got to retain your customer base. And I think
(07:09):
these guys are going to be smart like that too.
I think they're going to want to, you know, take
care of you, especially when you walk in with the Hey,
you know, I'm not trying to beat anybody up, but
here's what happened. Your Your argument, your argument in conversation
has to be if it went forty five thousand miles.
There's not a lot you could do unless you were
abusive in the way you drove the transmission. And I
don't think that took place. You know what I'm saying.
(07:33):
You don't even change transfluid until fifty or sixty the
first time around, you know, as long as they then
say to you, Hey, you know, Brian, we want to
we want you to change transfluid at twenty thousand miles.
And I don't think they would have. You know, listen,
it could be something beyond their fault, and it probably is.
It could be an accumulator spring that broke, you know.
It could be a servo piston that's that's that's chipped
(07:56):
or shattered. You know, this could be You won't know
until you tear down to and Beck and find out.
It could be a problem with the torque converter. Our
local trans guy. When I talk to Richie, he says,
the single biggest problem he faces, the single biggest problem
he faces in the business is getting good torque converters today.
(08:16):
It's just a massive problem. So I would go back
and talk to them. I would anticipate you're going to
get a positive response and yes, I think this transmission
can be rebuilt to a reliable standard. Clearly you should
get more than forty five thousand miles out of it.
Understand that when they rebuild an automatic transmission, they change
(08:37):
the wearable parts. They don't replace hard parts. Planetary's input
chefs things like that. They look at them if they're
doing their job properly. But you know, hard metal parts
are hard metal parts. Do you want all new metal
parts replaced? I think that's an extreme I think you
know in my mind that you got three hundred and
(08:59):
sixty out of the first transmission is a testament to
how easily you're not hard on the vehicle. You're not
an abusive driver. I'd venture to say, all right, I
think for all the technology that we have in the
automotive industry, I still see you. You know, I think
automatic transmissions, you know, the car gets to one hundred
(09:20):
and fifty, two hundred thousand, you owe it one. You know,
So you got three sixty. You got almost double what
I consider to be normal life expectancy. Yeah, I think
he did great.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
I really do one more questions about the transmission. About
three thousand miles ago, it started shifting funny and it
wouldn't come out of like second gear, I think, And
it happened to be during work hours. So I drove
it over there and the fellow rebuilds and looked at it,
(09:50):
and he found that the transmission was overfilled, and he
asked me if I'd done anything to it. I said,
I don't remember adding any transmission fluid. I may have
replaced the radiator at one point there so that the chance
I could have put some in, but I think I
replaced it before he did the transmission. So he took
(10:13):
the transmission some fluid out and it went back to
driving the way it was. And while I've added no
more transmission fluid, it's again. I see now drive that
it's driving funny. When it's hot, it's got some foam
in the transmission fluid and it's high. Uh. I don't
(10:34):
know where it's coming from. It's magic.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I would I would ask to have The first thing
I would do is ask to have a sample of
transfluid tested. Is it all? Is it pure transfluid? It
likely is. Usually if there's cross contamination from the radiator,
the transfluid will get this colored. Okay, if that's if
that's partly coolant and transmission fluid. They will discolor each
(10:58):
other very obviously, back and worth. But that's an interesting
that's an interesting question, and I would bring that up
to him again when you go back and talk to him.
I think you got to go back and talk to him, Brian,
I really do. I think that's I think that's step one.
Would you call me back and tell me what happens,
because I I'm really kind of curious. But I think
he's going to be a good guy. I think he's
going to surprise you.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
So yeah, I think he's going to be a good
guy too. I guess part of it is they used
to work in a shop when I was a kid,
and I know what it's like to have a comeback, right,
And I feel I really appreciated they're willing to work
on my old car, and I don't want them seeing
me pull in and a dread that I showed up,
get out of the.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Car with a box of car with a box of
donuts and coffee, you know, show up, show up ten
o'clock coffee break and say hey, guys, can we chat
about this? You know, I hate to intrude on your time.
It always puts a smile on everybody's face. So okay,
all right, let us know your advice. You're very welcome, Brian,
good luck. I'm running Any in the Car Doctor. We'll
(12:00):
be back right after this.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Half done.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
TV.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
What's more fun than listening to Ron and Any and
the car doctor and getting that car fixed?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Right? Eight five five five six zero nine nine zero zero.
Give Ron a call? Now back to Ron. Hey, look
at this, we talk about him and he shows up.
Aaron from South Carolina twenty one five to fifty fan
clutch circuit problem. Aaron, Welcome to the Car Doctor, sir.
I was talking about you in a previous hour. How
can I help?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Hey, it happening. Thanks tacking my call. Tom. Yeah, twenty
one f five to fifty chess cab. It just got
over thirty six thousand, like one hundred and thirty six
miles over one hundred and thirty or thirty six miles
on thirty six thousand, and my fan clutch has been
acting up for the past six months or so. Right
(12:57):
the I had a call to deal ship up. I
was noticing that it was cycling on and staying on
for no apparent reason, without any real load on it,
you know, flat roads, cool temperatures. Hauling a fairly light load,
and it's a I haul a boat trailer around, so
that's eight thousand pound hydraulic boat trailer. But it would
(13:18):
come on and stay on. So I started taking some
measurement time in it, and it would stay on for
bout two minutes, shut off for two minutes, come on
for two minutes, and it never made any difference in
the engine temperature, the oil temperature or the transmission temperature.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
That you're looking at by those that you're looking at
by gauge on the dashboard.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Correct, correct, Yeah, there's actually an engine temperature gauge on
the dash and then in the little sub menu there's
one for transmission temperature and engine oil temperature.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Gotcha, okay, And those were.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Within a few degrees of two hundred, like it was
two oh five maybe to one ninety seven somewhere in there.
So it was up to temperature, but it wasn't over.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Temperature, all right, So go ahead.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I brought it in the deal ship and the guys
ran and there were no codes on the dash. They
said they found no service bulletins from Ford about that issue.
And then it got worse. So I brought it in again,
same thing, no codes, no service bulletins, and then yeah,
(14:21):
just today's Saturday. So Thursday I did a trip with
the truck and it basically stayed on for thirty five
minutes at seventy miles an hour going down the highway,
and then when I slowed down, it cycled on and
off for like thirty five or forty seconds. Then they'll
come on for four or five minutes. But a highway
speeds that pretty much stayed on engaged constantly.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Okay, here's your argument, here's your argument. You're ready. Yeah,
this problem started six months ago. Yeah, it's under warranty
as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, And I brought it in and like this, we
made that schedule that a point to have it looked
at this time, because I said, it's got to be
something weird. So you guys got to get some technicians
to look at it more than just you know, scanning
for codes and getting a service bulletin. And I brought
it in this one hundred and thirty six miles past
the warrant, no thirty six thousand mile bumper to bumper,
(15:17):
and they tried to tell me, oh, that's not covered
under warranty, and I was like, uh yeah, well now
do you have absolutely?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, I listen, and you know they can. What you're
gonna do is you're gonna request you want to talk
to a Ford customer service rep all right, and you
know you want to start that conversation because that's nonsense.
Do you have do you have receipts showing that they've
been working on it since I'm going to guess and
say thirty two thirty three thousand miles? Then you know
this is this is a no brainer.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
You know, this is like my father said, you only
get one chance to annoy a customer, and they're going
to annoy you.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You know how much was that? How much was that
vehicle aeron?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
That was both well fifty thousand dollars before we put
the thirty six thousand dollars worth of equipment onto it.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, so it's one hundred thousand dollars vehicle in my mind.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Just about yeah, and it's tone about a eighty thousand
dollars trailer.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Right, So listen, I'm gonna play Devil's advocate. How do
you know there's a problem.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Well, I know that the fan clutch we've also got
a twenty twelve f four to fifty, same engine, but
it has a six speed rather than ten speed. Right,
But that fan clutch only comes on when I'm actually
climbing hills with fairly heavy loads, and it's you don't
necessarily notice it that, you know, forty five or fifty.
(16:39):
But when the engine rpm gets up there to you know,
twenty two hundred and twenty five hundred and you're climbing
hills and it's working, she roars.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So you know when it comes on, you know it's on.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, oh yeah, you can't. I mean it's seventy miles
an hour. It's uh, you know, seventies not that fast.
You know, it's not doing anything. But you know I
did it with an empty truck from the shop to
the dealership, and when I was coming downhill calling nothing,
that fan clutch engaged and stayed engaged for about five
(17:14):
miles from the shop to the dealership.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So here's the question I've got. That's an electrical viscous
coupling clutch.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Right, I believe it is. And it's about the size
of like a you know, a small airplane.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, it's huge, right. I wonder what would happen. If
you electrically disconnected that clutch, would it still come on?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I'm gonna guess no, because the way that it comes
on and off when it's when it's calling, it ramps
in slowly and it ramps out slowly.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, but isn't doesn't It doesn't the clutch. You know,
there's a sensor involved here because they have to know
that when they turn it on that it's on. So
there's a there's a fan speed sensor that's part of
this system too. I haven't really looked at this in detail,
but I wonder where it is. I wonder if this
fan speed sensor is just reading fan revolution speed. And
if you were to unplug this with the clutch mechanically
(18:12):
lock on, because the failure is in the viscous coupling
of the clutch itself. Stay where you are, Aaron. When
we come back, we'll finish up with you and get
some last minute thoughts and then we'll move on. I'm
ronning Ay and the car doctor and I'll return right
after this. Don't go away motorcycle clocome back running in
(19:11):
the carduct. Let's get back to Aaron Airon. You're still there, sir,
I am, yes, sir, thank you. So if they're saying
it's a bad fan clutch, right, the Ford dealer said
it's a bad fan.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Clutch, that's what they're saying.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, okay, you know, my conversation with them would be, well,
since it's an electrically stimulated clutch, all right to turn one.
Are they saying that it's not turning off that that
that's the reason for the fault, or are they saying
that it's mechanically failed and just coming on whenever it wants.
My understanding of electro viscous clutch couplings is they apply power,
(19:47):
it energizes it, and then when they want to they
duty cycle that power or ground depending upon the vehicle,
and that will allow fluid to flow or not flow
and lock the clutch or not lock the clutch. So,
you know, is this a mechanical failure? Is this a
failure to I mean, we sort of don't care because
it's under warranty as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Right, Yeah, that was my and I was just hoping
that they'd be like, you know, if it is an
electro mechanical, that they would be able to have their
dealership computer be able to hook it up and say, okay,
these you know, whether that sensor that's turning it on
is an engine cooling temperature or if it's you know,
I don't know if the air conditioning. You know, if
(20:30):
it's something in one of the condensers that requires that
fan to come on.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Right, you know what you're thinking, right, what's the input
that's calling for that? You're absolutely thinking correctly, Mike. One
of my questions in my head is they've got a
fan speed sensor in there so they can tell a
faster fans turning. How do they know that's accurate?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Is there?
Speaker 4 (20:51):
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I always look at a car in a situation as
you tell your kids to go clean their room? Do
they clean their room? How many time you tell your
kids clean your room? They come down my room?
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Clean?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
You go upstairs, it's still a mess because you have
to go look. There has to be a cause and
effect and a response. You know, clean your room, you go, look,
the room's a mess. Turn the fan on. You should
be able to look at that is the fan on?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
What speed?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Three hundred rpm? How do we know it's three hundred rpm? Right?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Is what I was?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, that's you're right.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
When I told them that in the in the first
time around, I say, figuring that that's what they would do,
and they said, they put the computer on it, but
I don't think they actually checked me that. So they
just checked for any you know, and check engine like
codes that we're not on the dash anyway. And the
second time is exactly the same thing, but no further diagnostics.
And I say, Okay, that's not going to cut it.
(21:41):
You've got to go a little deeper than that. So
rescheduled for this last drop off, and then I dropped
it off. And when they called me back, he said
it's a fan clutch and it's not under warranty because
it's one hundred and thirty six miles out, and I
I had to contain myself from getting a little bit uncouth.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So yeah, yeah, and you know what, and you shouldn't
have to, all right, you're really you really shouldn't have to.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So, especially since it was the exact same service tech
that I talked to the first two times.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Press right, so you know, and then and then your
argument's going to be and how much is this clutch? Seven?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Right, you know, then your question is going to be
and when this doesn't fix it, then what.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
That? That was my questions, like if you're gonna throw
a fan clutch on it without actually having done because
they did put a computer on it and said, oh yeah,
it did come on, because like, well what caused it
to come on? And they didn't have an answer for that,
so they just saw that it did come on and
that I said, Okay, that's a fan clutch. And I
was like, well, if that is the case then and
(22:45):
it doesn't fix it, you throw that at it. We're
still have an issue and you're still going to have
to go fix it. But yeah, it's and like I said,
it's I I've looked online. I haven't found anybody else
having the same issue. But it's kind of annoying because
I do cross country trips with the try right driving
out to San Francisco, La Port towns in Washington hauling
oversized boats and stuff, and the damn thing being stuck
(23:08):
on all the time when anytime you're over sixty miles
an hours. We bit frustrating.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And it wasn't It wasn't like that when it was
new for the longest time.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Correct, No, you know, it just started acting. We we
bought the truck in the fall of twenty twenty one,
brand new, and we didn't get any of the parts
to build the body of the winch and all the
rest of bad stuff, the hydraulic system, and we didn't
get the boat out of the truck in our possession
until July, and then last summer we ran it all
(23:36):
summer in the fall hauling season, did a long distanceship
support towns in Washington with a thirty three foot last winter,
and then brand the spring launch season. So I figured
the summertime, when it's a little bit quiet, when all
the boats are in the water, we'd send it into
the dealership and they get it figured out. And that's
why I told them the first two times.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
So here's what I wanted each Here's what I want
you to do, all right, because we can go on
about this all day. Not that I don't like talking
to you, but you know, ask them if are you guys,
You got to ask them, are you saying this is
electrical or mechanical? If it's If it's electrical, then are
they saying that the electrical component of the viscus coupling
(24:19):
has failed or that it's being told electrically to do
something that's not right. And if they say it's mechanical,
well then you should be able to unplug that and
have it do it right. Okay, yeah, you know, is
this a mechanical failure? And you know is that the problem?
Speaker 4 (24:40):
You know?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
And then I want to know about the fan speed
if it if it doesn't have the ability to look
at fan speed and tell whether or not fan speed
is correct for what it's doing, And then how do
we know the fan speed is actually right? You know?
They if they want to see four hundred revolutions per
minute and the fan speed sensors reading too, they're going
to run it longer and leave it on right yep,
(25:03):
So how are they gonna and listen, they can get
all these answers from Ford Tech.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Support, and so I think that uh I did last
time I was in, I did call Ford Tech and
they did give me a case number, a ticket, a
case number, and I gave it to them when but
they got the lady that I talked said this is
going to be done through the dealership Tech service. So
I gave the dealership to Tech the case number and
(25:31):
they said that they you know, but like I said,
when I when they called me to tell me that
they were replacing the fan clutches. When they told me
that they weren't going to cover it under they were
only going to cover seventy percent because it was past Wharton,
they said, So.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
They listen, listen to me, all right, and then we're
gonna go want When you call them and you talk
to Ford Tech Support Number one, you tell them you
talk to me. Not that that'll mean a whole lot,
but say, listen, I've been calling into this guy on
the radio. This is at the national level now because
I know every one of our listeners. It's still tuned
in once and how this turns out, you can tell
them that, all right. They seem to respond to that
when I explained that to him with my wife's explore.
(26:06):
Of course I was the one telling them, so you know,
I hate to play that card, but sometimes you get
so annoyed at their stupidity. The second thing I want
you to ask them is I spend ninety thousand dollars
on this truck. What do you think the likelihood is
that I'm going to buy another one when I've got
a problem like this, where the problem happened under warranty
and it took you guys how many months and how
many thousands of miles to figure it out? And now
(26:26):
it's my problem.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Right Yeah, And that twenty twelve with the six seven
in it at one hundred and forty thousand miles, that
the bosh CP four fuel pump craft the bed and
did twelve thousand dollars worth of damage to the fuel system.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So you got to you gotta tell them I'm on
some sketch. Well, you know, you got to tell them. Look,
if Toyota ever builds this truck, you guys are in trouble.
So I gotta go aeron. Let us know how you
make out. Buddy, all right, I'll.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Give you a jingle back if we get stuff figured out.
I appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Oh, any time, buddy, anytime, Good luck. I'm running any
in the car doctor. We're back right after this. Hey,
(27:19):
rolling along, running any of the car doctor at eighty
five to five five six zero nine nine zero zero.
Let's go to Tom in Delaware. Tom, welcome aboard, sir,
How can I help?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Hey?
Speaker 5 (27:28):
Thank you very much, Rod, sir. I'm kind of a
definition of an old shade tree mechanic. I've tried, I've
probably worked on over twenty different car types in sixty years.
I recently bought my first brand new pickup truck for
twenty twenty three F one fifty. I was shocked to
(27:48):
find they didn't even give you an owner's manual for it.
But there is an a thousand page electronic manual on
the LCD screen which is the only source of the
infra on that car that I was given with it.
So I started going with my computers and looking online
to see if I could obtain a shop repair manual
(28:11):
for that car. So far, I haven't been very successful
in the old days. Prior to computers. I either worked
with things like Chilten's or Haynes or you know, half
a dozen other varieties of different repair manuals for various
car types. But I was astounded to find so much
information condensed in the F one fifties LCD screen, over
(28:36):
a thousand pages. It included every model of the F
one fifty, including the Raptor and the Lightning and everything else.
So I haven't even been able to find out yet
what is the oil change frequency recommended for that car?
So far? Do you have any source or aware of
any source where somebody like me could get a cost
(28:58):
effective shop repair manual and wiring diagrams for that vehicle.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Okay, let's back up. Are you looking for an owner's
manual or a shop manual or both?
Speaker 5 (29:08):
Well, I was looking for both the owner's manuals, just
to figure out, you know, how to drive the car,
what all the switch physicians were, what the you know,
the generic information that anybody would want. But I was
looking like my poor Vet. When I bought my two
thousand and seven. Poor Vet, I got the Chevrolet Shop
Repair Manuals, which is the whole bookshelf of everything you
(29:30):
need to know, which is what I wanted. And I
was trying to look for the same thing for this
Ford f one fifty and the only thing I could
find was a factory manuals dot com that you had
to I was still trying to interpret and decipher what
they and what the different users felt about the manuals
(29:54):
they got from them. And again, it's not like in
the old days. You could go to the OEM in
the back of your MO owner's manual and fine, here's
how to contact forward to get an OEM.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Right you would, right, you would write to Helm h
Elm or whoever was making the books at the time. Yeah,
they don't do that the car companies. The car companies
don't offer printed shop manuals anymore. You're either gonna go online.
You're gonna go look at all Data and look at
an All Data DIY subscription or Mitchell and look at
Mitchell DIY subscription, and they vary in price anywhere from
thirty five to eighty bucks for the year, and it
(30:28):
just becomes part of the process. It's and the reason
they do that, Tom is it's just the sheer volume
of information, you know, it's it's not it's not the
service manual procedures that you know changes it and sometimes
they do, but it's the amount of bulletins that get
published per vehicle because of the amount of electronics that
are on vehicles today and the need to you know,
(30:51):
update software or change software, or change a diagnostic routine
because once it's been out in the world for two years,
they find out they had a bad run of XYZ
part and they need to change how they approach the
overall repair. I haven't seen a printed shop manual, frou.
I haven't used the printed shop manual in the better
(31:12):
part of twenty years. Unless somebody's bringing me something along.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Well, I was looking for the equivalent and an else
or a DVD or something like that, realizing they didn't
want to send you two hundred pounds worth of books.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Right, and they don't offer that anymore. They don't do
that anymore. It's like you can't even it's hard to
buy a laptop now with a DVD player in it
for that simple reason because everything is online, you know,
and this is this is technology. I'm kind of stunned
to hear the part about the shop manual. I get
the owner's manual in the vehicle. That to me is annoying.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
There's no yeah. For instance, if you want to drive
a car, and so you buy a brand new car
you haven't bought one in five to ten years, even
five years, and you get in and you're just trying
to find all the right switches and all the electronics
now that they into the car for all kinds of
safety reasons that can really screw you up. And then
(32:08):
all the inner I found with this F one fifty
it's an extended cab with the short doors in the back.
I pulled the seats out of it like I did
in my twenty seventeen Toyota Hybrid or Highlander. And as
soon as I pulled the seats out, all the electronics
on the safety features with the seat belts in the
(32:29):
back seat kept getting me warning. So I went and
I went, and I stopped at a four dealership and
I said, Hey, what's gives with this? So the guys
couldn't even explain it. So I just figured, well, okay,
I got to put all the seat belt wiring back in.
For instance, my Highlander that was twenty seventeen, I was
(32:49):
able to take all the back seats out, disconnect all
the wiring, tuck come under the carpets, and use it
as a two seat vehicle as a truck basically, and
then no problems. When he did that to the Ford,
I found out you had to reconnect all the electronic
wiring and the seat belts in the back seat or
you would have constant alarms going off that the back
(33:13):
seat belts weren't functional.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, you're gonna and you're gonna, Tom guy, you're gonna
find that the newer vehicles all do that, and that's
and that's the issue. So and it all has to
do with ads and all the safety controls and all
the safety features. I would take a look at all data.
I would take a look at Mitchell. Perhaps they're going
to find your shop manual online as far as the
owner's manual, I would suggest, and I'm sure you've already
(33:35):
done this, go back to the dealer and ask them
is there a source for an owner's manual on DVD
or a way to download it off lines? So at
least you have a PDF of the shop manual. But yeah,
times are a change, and I agree with you. There's
nothing like being able to sit at the kitchen table
with a cup of coffee and read through the owner's
manual on how something operates. Let us know if you
find something. Tom, I'm curious, and I'm sure everybody else is,
(33:57):
and I wish you luck. I'm running Indy in the
car Doctor. We're back right this put back Ron named
the car Doctor. Let's let's wind things down with this.
(34:17):
An email from Alan Allen's writes, my wife's friend Andrew,
she has a twenty thirteen Jeep Patriot two Leader with
one hundred and fifty thousand miles, was given an estimate
for this engine. She was told that air was getting
into the engine I told her more info is needed, codes,
et cetera. She said she has not been driving with
the heat on, or she has been driving with the
heat on to keep it from overheating. The engine will
be a reman with a three year warranty. Not sure
(34:38):
about mileage, your thoughts. And it was a forty one
hundred dollars engine. Now I don't know if that's forty
one hundred dollars parts in labor Allen or if that's
forty one hundred dollars labor Jeep Patriots a little bit
involved doing an engine on, but you know, and then
where's the engine coming from it? Is it a reputable
national rebuilder? What if she's traveling with it? Can she
still get its service if she breaks down? And you
(34:59):
know she's getting it done in New York State, it
looks like if she breaks down in California, is there
a warranty going to be a national coverage thing or
just what I mean? The alternative if it turns out
to be a head gasket is why not put a
bottle a kcal ultimate in it. KCl ultimate is rated
for head gaskets. It's got a third more cooling seal
are in it, we know how good KCAL is here.
(35:21):
We talk about it all the time. Matter of fact,
we had a customer come into the shop this week,
a new guy with a two thousand and one four
Taurus with a head gasket issue. He was told by
another shop and he was getting prices on engines. I
told him to put a bottle a KCAL Ultimate in it.
He's coming back next week for the front endwork because
CaCl Ultimate fixed his head gasket problem for a whole
lot less than having to replace the engine on a
twenty year old vehicle. So perhaps you should try that.
(35:43):
You'll find it at kcal dot com. Let me know
if you need more, But I think that would take
some preliminary good first steps. Till the next time, I'm
ronning Andy and the guard Doctor reminding all of you
good mechanics aren't expensive, they're priceless. See you, s
Ron An Aian Ron, why don't you just treat the
symptom well? Because it's not that I don't treat the symptom,
but I look at the conditions, all right, the conditions
create the symptom.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Big cars lack one Massidravar.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
The Car Doctor. Was that cap off when you took
it apart before we started?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, the line was, there was a line to it.
It was broken.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
It was open, all right, So where's that line now?
You just got to kind of hanging out in space?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
No, I took it off because I couldn't find the
other into it.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Welcome to the radio home of Ron Anian the Car Doctor.
Since nineteen ninety one. This is where car owners the
world overturned to for their definitive opinion on automotive repair.
If your mechanics giving you a busy signal, pick up
the phone and call in the garage doors.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Are open, but I am here to take your calls
at eight five, five, five, nine nine hund and now
running has anybody does anybody? Is anybody aware of the
AIM Act? The US AIM Act. I was reading about
this this week in the trades, the American Innovation and
Manufacturing Act. It gives the EPA authority to regulate refrigerants
(01:18):
that are being used in vehicle AC systems mobile AC systems.
And it's a concern I've got because I've been watching
this in the news. You know, we've seen in the
news where they're talking about Washington is going to they're
coming after our gas stove and you know, our our
other appliances that are in the house, dishwashers, they're changing
a lot of that, so they're coming out. The EPA
(01:39):
has now been given authority as going back to December
of twenty twenty that they're phasing down the availability of
refrigerants for mobile application and they're increasing the price. I
think next year, what are the numbers saying the second
steps a few wants away in twenty twenty four, that's
next year we're going to see a forty percent reduction
in the manufacturing of available refrigerant one thirty four A.
(02:03):
So you're going to see the supply go down, you're
going to see the price go up. So just a
quick tip to make everybody aware that if you're thinking of,
you know, using one thirty four you may want to,
you know, be a little bit aware and stockpile a
little bit but you know, your government hard at work,
so I don't know that that's all the answer is.
Because the bad side of this is, and I'm not
about hurting the environment, folks, but nobody out there is
(02:26):
saying what we're going to use in place of one
thirty four. Nobody's saying, hey, there's an alternative, which is
an obvious concern.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I love these mandates that come down from different places
where they say we're gonna do this, and we're gonna
do that. We don't have an alternative yet, but you know,
here's how we're going to slow you down from using this.
Holy ken, I just want to fix cars. Let's go
over to Brian and do just that. Let's go talk
to Brian about his ninety nine Chevy Suburban and some
transmission issues. Brian, Welcome to the car doctor, sir. How
can I help?
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Well, thanks for taking my phone call.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
You're welcome.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
So, yeah, I bought the car new in nineteen ninety eight,
so it is old. It has a little over four
hundred thousand miles on it now, and at three hundred
and sixty thousand, the transmission went and I had a
transmission rebuilding. So subsequent to the rebuild transmission, the drive
(03:17):
wasn't perfect. It seemed to search for a gear around
forty miles an hour and kind of go up down,
up doown, but it was it was drivable. And then
more recently it's now it you know, it's it's about
forty thousand, maybe forty five thousand since the rebuild, going
(03:37):
into I guess probably changing the second gear. I got
a kick in the pants, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
It about miles an hour, Sure it bangs and then
bangs on that shift right.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
And then just last week it turned into a situation
where between sixty and seventy five miles an hour, it's
it's searching for a year, and don't I don't know
enough about transmissions. I don't know if it's searching for
overdrive or if that's even a thing anymore, or if
maybe the torque converter is trying to lock up and can't.
(04:10):
I don't know enough about the transmission to say, but
it scares me being in say a passing lane with
a semi in the inside, because I'm afraid maybe the
transmission will go on me. So I'm going to need
to go back to the transmission shop and while it
cost me about four thousand for the first rebuild, I
(04:33):
do love the car. I want to keep it, and
I'm not trying to kissel anyone out of their hard
earned money. I don't want them to dread me showing up.
Can can this transmission be rebuilt to a reliable transmission?
Or is it potentially just too old?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So tell me about the trans shop. These are great questions.
And let me tell you something, if you walked into
my shop with that attitude, I'd embrace you, you know,
because that's that's a great attitude to have, because there's
a lot of you know, there's a lot of what
if and potential snakes in the pile here that can
limit whether this trans can successfully be rebuilt. It sort
(05:10):
of depends on the trans shop. Is it a real
old school shop in town a long time, the owner's
kind of got gray hair, or is it a go ahead?
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah? The cellar that the guy, the main fellow who
rebuilds them. Back when they did the rebuild, I told him,
you know, hey, I want to keep this car on
the road and I'll pay whatever you think we need
to do. And I do trust him, and they said
they do the rebuild or he told me he does
the rebuilds himself because he's good at it and he
(05:39):
wants a reliable product to go to drive out the door,
and that's why they don't order in or rebuild. So yeah,
I trust them. It's a four L sixty transmission.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yep, yep, and listen, don't don't don't apologize for the
age of the vehicle. You're talking to a guy who's
got a no for suburban. I've only got ninety thousand
miles on it now, but I did my transit. I
did my trans at fifty five thousand, and you know,
there's a car that there's a car that I changed
it's diaper every day of its life and it's still
puked the trans at fifty five And I still think
about that, and it kind of frosts me a little bit.
(06:12):
So you know, here you are at forty five thousand
miles your conversation, and I don't think it's going to
be a bad one. I think you're gonna be surprised.
I think these guys are gonna want to stand behind
it and do something for you. How many years ago
was it that they did this?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Two years ago, twelve years ago.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So you know, you're kind of on the fuzzy edge
of responsibility for them, like my father. Like my father said,
and you guys have heard me tell you this story.
My father said at I sat at the kitchen table
as a kid, I must have been all of nine
or ten years old, and I heard my father, you know,
tell my mommy was going to be home late the
next night because he had to go back to some
(06:48):
place where he had laid carpeting. My father, being a
good Armenian boy, went into the carpet business. I mean,
that's what we did in the fifties and sixties. And
my father said to my mom. My mom said, well,
why are you going back? That job was five years ago.
And my father said, you know that you only get
one chance to annoy a customer, and you know there's
you've got to retain your customer base. And I think
(07:09):
these guys are going to be smart like that too.
I think they're going to want to, you know, take
care of you, especially when you walk in with the Hey,
you know, I'm not trying to beat anybody up, but
here's what happened. Your Your argument, your argument in conversation
has to be if it went forty five thousand miles.
There's not a lot you could do unless you were
abusive in the way you drove the transmission. And I
don't think that took place. You know what I'm saying.
(07:33):
You don't even change transfluid until fifty or sixty the
first time around, you know, as long as they then
say to you, Hey, you know, Brian, we want to
we want you to change transfluid at twenty thousand miles.
And I don't think they would have. You know, listen,
it could be something beyond their fault, and it probably is.
It could be an accumulator spring that broke, you know.
It could be a servo piston that's that's that's chipped
(07:56):
or shattered. You know, this could be You won't know
until you tear down to and Beck and find out.
It could be a problem with the torque converter. Our
local trans guy. When I talk to Richie, he says,
the single biggest problem he faces, the single biggest problem
he faces in the business is getting good torque converters today.
(08:16):
It's just a massive problem. So I would go back
and talk to them. I would anticipate you're going to
get a positive response and yes, I think this transmission
can be rebuilt to a reliable standard. Clearly you should
get more than forty five thousand miles out of it.
Understand that when they rebuild an automatic transmission, they change
(08:37):
the wearable parts. They don't replace hard parts. Planetary's input
chefs things like that. They look at them if they're
doing their job properly. But you know, hard metal parts
are hard metal parts. Do you want all new metal
parts replaced? I think that's an extreme I think you
know in my mind that you got three hundred and
(08:59):
sixty out of the first transmission is a testament to
how easily you're not hard on the vehicle. You're not
an abusive driver. I'd venture to say, all right, I
think for all the technology that we have in the
automotive industry, I still see you. You know, I think
automatic transmissions, you know, the car gets to one hundred
(09:20):
and fifty, two hundred thousand, you owe it one. You know,
So you got three sixty. You got almost double what
I consider to be normal life expectancy. Yeah, I think
he did great.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
I really do one more questions about the transmission. About
three thousand miles ago, it started shifting funny and it
wouldn't come out of like second gear, I think, And
it happened to be during work hours. So I drove
it over there and the fellow rebuilds and looked at it,
(09:50):
and he found that the transmission was overfilled, and he
asked me if I'd done anything to it. I said,
I don't remember adding any transmission fluid. I may have
replaced the radiator at one point there so that the chance
I could have put some in, but I think I
replaced it before he did the transmission. So he took
(10:13):
the transmission some fluid out and it went back to
driving the way it was. And while I've added no
more transmission fluid, it's again. I see now drive that
it's driving funny. When it's hot, it's got some foam
in the transmission fluid and it's high. Uh. I don't
(10:34):
know where it's coming from. It's magic.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I would I would ask to have The first thing
I would do is ask to have a sample of
transfluid tested. Is it all? Is it pure transfluid? It
likely is. Usually if there's cross contamination from the radiator,
the transfluid will get this colored. Okay, if that's if
that's partly coolant and transmission fluid. They will discolor each
(10:58):
other very obviously, back and worth. But that's an interesting
that's an interesting question, and I would bring that up
to him again when you go back and talk to him.
I think you got to go back and talk to him, Brian,
I really do. I think that's I think that's step one.
Would you call me back and tell me what happens,
because I I'm really kind of curious. But I think
he's going to be a good guy. I think he's
going to surprise you.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
So yeah, I think he's going to be a good
guy too. I guess part of it is they used
to work in a shop when I was a kid,
and I know what it's like to have a comeback, right,
And I feel I really appreciated they're willing to work
on my old car, and I don't want them seeing
me pull in and a dread that I showed up,
get out of the.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Car with a box of car with a box of
donuts and coffee, you know, show up, show up ten
o'clock coffee break and say hey, guys, can we chat
about this? You know, I hate to intrude on your time.
It always puts a smile on everybody's face. So okay,
all right, let us know your advice. You're very welcome, Brian,
good luck. I'm running Any in the Car Doctor. We'll
(12:00):
be back right after this.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Half done.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
TV.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
What's more fun than listening to Ron and Any and
the car doctor and getting that car fixed?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Right? Eight five five five six zero nine nine zero zero.
Give Ron a call? Now back to Ron. Hey, look
at this, we talk about him and he shows up.
Aaron from South Carolina twenty one five to fifty fan
clutch circuit problem. Aaron, Welcome to the Car Doctor, sir.
I was talking about you in a previous hour. How
can I help?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Hey, it happening. Thanks tacking my call. Tom. Yeah, twenty
one f five to fifty chess cab. It just got
over thirty six thousand, like one hundred and thirty six
miles over one hundred and thirty or thirty six miles
on thirty six thousand, and my fan clutch has been
acting up for the past six months or so. Right
(12:57):
the I had a call to deal ship up. I
was noticing that it was cycling on and staying on
for no apparent reason, without any real load on it,
you know, flat roads, cool temperatures. Hauling a fairly light load,
and it's a I haul a boat trailer around, so
that's eight thousand pound hydraulic boat trailer. But it would
(13:18):
come on and stay on. So I started taking some
measurement time in it, and it would stay on for
bout two minutes, shut off for two minutes, come on
for two minutes, and it never made any difference in
the engine temperature, the oil temperature or the transmission temperature.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
That you're looking at by those that you're looking at
by gauge on the dashboard.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Correct, correct, Yeah, there's actually an engine temperature gauge on
the dash and then in the little sub menu there's
one for transmission temperature and engine oil temperature.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Gotcha, okay, And those were.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Within a few degrees of two hundred, like it was
two oh five maybe to one ninety seven somewhere in there.
So it was up to temperature, but it wasn't over.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Temperature, all right, So go ahead.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I brought it in the deal ship and the guys
ran and there were no codes on the dash. They
said they found no service bulletins from Ford about that issue.
And then it got worse. So I brought it in again,
same thing, no codes, no service bulletins, and then yeah,
(14:21):
just today's Saturday. So Thursday I did a trip with
the truck and it basically stayed on for thirty five
minutes at seventy miles an hour going down the highway,
and then when I slowed down, it cycled on and
off for like thirty five or forty seconds. Then they'll
come on for four or five minutes. But a highway
speeds that pretty much stayed on engaged constantly.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Okay, here's your argument, here's your argument. You're ready. Yeah,
this problem started six months ago. Yeah, it's under warranty
as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, And I brought it in and like this, we
made that schedule that a point to have it looked
at this time, because I said, it's got to be
something weird. So you guys got to get some technicians
to look at it more than just you know, scanning
for codes and getting a service bulletin. And I brought
it in this one hundred and thirty six miles past
the warrant, no thirty six thousand mile bumper to bumper,
(15:17):
and they tried to tell me, oh, that's not covered
under warranty, and I was like, uh yeah, well now
do you have absolutely?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, I listen, and you know they can. What you're
gonna do is you're gonna request you want to talk
to a Ford customer service rep all right, and you
know you want to start that conversation because that's nonsense.
Do you have do you have receipts showing that they've
been working on it since I'm going to guess and
say thirty two thirty three thousand miles? Then you know
this is this is a no brainer.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
You know, this is like my father said, you only
get one chance to annoy a customer, and they're going
to annoy you.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You know how much was that? How much was that
vehicle aeron?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
That was both well fifty thousand dollars before we put
the thirty six thousand dollars worth of equipment onto it.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, so it's one hundred thousand dollars vehicle in my mind.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Just about yeah, and it's tone about a eighty thousand
dollars trailer.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Right, So listen, I'm gonna play Devil's advocate. How do
you know there's a problem.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Well, I know that the fan clutch we've also got
a twenty twelve f four to fifty, same engine, but
it has a six speed rather than ten speed. Right,
But that fan clutch only comes on when I'm actually
climbing hills with fairly heavy loads, and it's you don't
necessarily notice it that, you know, forty five or fifty.
(16:39):
But when the engine rpm gets up there to you know,
twenty two hundred and twenty five hundred and you're climbing
hills and it's working, she roars.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So you know when it comes on, you know it's on.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, oh yeah, you can't. I mean it's seventy miles
an hour. It's uh, you know, seventies not that fast.
You know, it's not doing anything. But you know I
did it with an empty truck from the shop to
the dealership, and when I was coming downhill calling nothing,
that fan clutch engaged and stayed engaged for about five
(17:14):
miles from the shop to the dealership.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So here's the question I've got. That's an electrical viscous
coupling clutch.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Right, I believe it is. And it's about the size
of like a you know, a small airplane.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, it's huge, right. I wonder what would happen. If
you electrically disconnected that clutch, would it still come on?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I'm gonna guess no, because the way that it comes
on and off when it's when it's calling, it ramps
in slowly and it ramps out slowly.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, but isn't doesn't It doesn't the clutch. You know,
there's a sensor involved here because they have to know
that when they turn it on that it's on. So
there's a there's a fan speed sensor that's part of
this system too. I haven't really looked at this in detail,
but I wonder where it is. I wonder if this
fan speed sensor is just reading fan revolution speed. And
if you were to unplug this with the clutch mechanically
(18:12):
lock on, because the failure is in the viscous coupling
of the clutch itself. Stay where you are, Aaron. When
we come back, we'll finish up with you and get
some last minute thoughts and then we'll move on. I'm
ronning Ay and the car doctor and I'll return right
after this. Don't go away motorcycle clocome back running in
(19:11):
the carduct. Let's get back to Aaron Airon. You're still there, sir,
I am, yes, sir, thank you. So if they're saying
it's a bad fan clutch, right, the Ford dealer said
it's a bad fan.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Clutch, that's what they're saying.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, okay, you know, my conversation with them would be, well,
since it's an electrically stimulated clutch, all right to turn one.
Are they saying that it's not turning off that that
that's the reason for the fault, or are they saying
that it's mechanically failed and just coming on whenever it wants.
My understanding of electro viscous clutch couplings is they apply power,
(19:47):
it energizes it, and then when they want to they
duty cycle that power or ground depending upon the vehicle,
and that will allow fluid to flow or not flow
and lock the clutch or not lock the clutch. So,
you know, is this a mechanical failure? Is this a
failure to I mean, we sort of don't care because
it's under warranty as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Right, Yeah, that was my and I was just hoping
that they'd be like, you know, if it is an
electro mechanical, that they would be able to have their
dealership computer be able to hook it up and say, okay,
these you know, whether that sensor that's turning it on
is an engine cooling temperature or if it's you know,
I don't know if the air conditioning. You know, if
(20:30):
it's something in one of the condensers that requires that
fan to come on.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Right, you know what you're thinking, right, what's the input
that's calling for that? You're absolutely thinking correctly, Mike. One
of my questions in my head is they've got a
fan speed sensor in there so they can tell a
faster fans turning. How do they know that's accurate?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Is there?
Speaker 4 (20:51):
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I always look at a car in a situation as
you tell your kids to go clean their room? Do
they clean their room? How many time you tell your
kids clean your room? They come down my room?
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Clean?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
You go upstairs, it's still a mess because you have
to go look. There has to be a cause and
effect and a response. You know, clean your room, you go, look,
the room's a mess. Turn the fan on. You should
be able to look at that is the fan on?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
What speed?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Three hundred rpm? How do we know it's three hundred rpm? Right?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Is what I was?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, that's you're right.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
When I told them that in the in the first
time around, I say, figuring that that's what they would do,
and they said, they put the computer on it, but
I don't think they actually checked me that. So they
just checked for any you know, and check engine like
codes that we're not on the dash anyway. And the
second time is exactly the same thing, but no further diagnostics.
And I say, Okay, that's not going to cut it.
(21:41):
You've got to go a little deeper than that. So
rescheduled for this last drop off, and then I dropped
it off. And when they called me back, he said
it's a fan clutch and it's not under warranty because
it's one hundred and thirty six miles out, and I
I had to contain myself from getting a little bit uncouth.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So yeah, yeah, and you know what, and you shouldn't
have to, all right, you're really you really shouldn't have to.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So, especially since it was the exact same service tech
that I talked to the first two times.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Press right, so you know, and then and then your
argument's going to be and how much is this clutch? Seven?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Right, you know, then your question is going to be
and when this doesn't fix it, then what.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
That? That was my questions, like if you're gonna throw
a fan clutch on it without actually having done because
they did put a computer on it and said, oh yeah,
it did come on, because like, well what caused it
to come on? And they didn't have an answer for that,
so they just saw that it did come on and
that I said, Okay, that's a fan clutch. And I
was like, well, if that is the case then and
(22:45):
it doesn't fix it, you throw that at it. We're
still have an issue and you're still going to have
to go fix it. But yeah, it's and like I said,
it's I I've looked online. I haven't found anybody else
having the same issue. But it's kind of annoying because
I do cross country trips with the try right driving
out to San Francisco, La Port towns in Washington hauling
oversized boats and stuff, and the damn thing being stuck
(23:08):
on all the time when anytime you're over sixty miles
an hours. We bit frustrating.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And it wasn't It wasn't like that when it was
new for the longest time.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Correct, No, you know, it just started acting. We we
bought the truck in the fall of twenty twenty one,
brand new, and we didn't get any of the parts
to build the body of the winch and all the
rest of bad stuff, the hydraulic system, and we didn't
get the boat out of the truck in our possession
until July, and then last summer we ran it all
(23:36):
summer in the fall hauling season, did a long distanceship
support towns in Washington with a thirty three foot last winter,
and then brand the spring launch season. So I figured
the summertime, when it's a little bit quiet, when all
the boats are in the water, we'd send it into
the dealership and they get it figured out. And that's
why I told them the first two times.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
So here's what I wanted each Here's what I want
you to do, all right, because we can go on
about this all day. Not that I don't like talking
to you, but you know, ask them if are you guys,
You got to ask them, are you saying this is
electrical or mechanical? If it's If it's electrical, then are
they saying that the electrical component of the viscus coupling
(24:19):
has failed or that it's being told electrically to do
something that's not right. And if they say it's mechanical,
well then you should be able to unplug that and
have it do it right. Okay, yeah, you know, is
this a mechanical failure? And you know is that the problem?
Speaker 4 (24:40):
You know?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
And then I want to know about the fan speed
if it if it doesn't have the ability to look
at fan speed and tell whether or not fan speed
is correct for what it's doing, And then how do
we know the fan speed is actually right? You know?
They if they want to see four hundred revolutions per
minute and the fan speed sensors reading too, they're going
to run it longer and leave it on right yep,
(25:03):
So how are they gonna and listen, they can get
all these answers from Ford Tech.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Support, and so I think that uh I did last
time I was in, I did call Ford Tech and
they did give me a case number, a ticket, a
case number, and I gave it to them when but
they got the lady that I talked said this is
going to be done through the dealership Tech service. So
I gave the dealership to Tech the case number and
(25:31):
they said that they you know, but like I said,
when I when they called me to tell me that
they were replacing the fan clutches. When they told me
that they weren't going to cover it under they were
only going to cover seventy percent because it was past Wharton,
they said, So.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
They listen, listen to me, all right, and then we're
gonna go want When you call them and you talk
to Ford Tech Support Number one, you tell them you
talk to me. Not that that'll mean a whole lot,
but say, listen, I've been calling into this guy on
the radio. This is at the national level now because
I know every one of our listeners. It's still tuned
in once and how this turns out, you can tell
them that, all right. They seem to respond to that
when I explained that to him with my wife's explore.
(26:06):
Of course I was the one telling them, so you know,
I hate to play that card, but sometimes you get
so annoyed at their stupidity. The second thing I want
you to ask them is I spend ninety thousand dollars
on this truck. What do you think the likelihood is
that I'm going to buy another one when I've got
a problem like this, where the problem happened under warranty
and it took you guys how many months and how
many thousands of miles to figure it out? And now
(26:26):
it's my problem.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Right Yeah, And that twenty twelve with the six seven
in it at one hundred and forty thousand miles, that
the bosh CP four fuel pump craft the bed and
did twelve thousand dollars worth of damage to the fuel system.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So you got to you gotta tell them I'm on
some sketch. Well, you know, you got to tell them. Look,
if Toyota ever builds this truck, you guys are in trouble.
So I gotta go aeron. Let us know how you
make out. Buddy, all right, I'll.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Give you a jingle back if we get stuff figured out.
I appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Oh, any time, buddy, anytime, Good luck. I'm running any
in the car doctor. We're back right after this. Hey,
(27:19):
rolling along, running any of the car doctor at eighty
five to five five six zero nine nine zero zero.
Let's go to Tom in Delaware. Tom, welcome aboard, sir,
How can I help?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Hey?
Speaker 5 (27:28):
Thank you very much, Rod, sir. I'm kind of a
definition of an old shade tree mechanic. I've tried, I've
probably worked on over twenty different car types in sixty years.
I recently bought my first brand new pickup truck for
twenty twenty three F one fifty. I was shocked to
(27:48):
find they didn't even give you an owner's manual for it.
But there is an a thousand page electronic manual on
the LCD screen which is the only source of the
infra on that car that I was given with it.
So I started going with my computers and looking online
to see if I could obtain a shop repair manual
(28:11):
for that car. So far, I haven't been very successful
in the old days. Prior to computers. I either worked
with things like Chilten's or Haynes or you know, half
a dozen other varieties of different repair manuals for various
car types. But I was astounded to find so much
information condensed in the F one fifties LCD screen, over
(28:36):
a thousand pages. It included every model of the F
one fifty, including the Raptor and the Lightning and everything else.
So I haven't even been able to find out yet
what is the oil change frequency recommended for that car?
So far? Do you have any source or aware of
any source where somebody like me could get a cost
(28:58):
effective shop repair manual and wiring diagrams for that vehicle.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Okay, let's back up. Are you looking for an owner's
manual or a shop manual or both?
Speaker 5 (29:08):
Well, I was looking for both the owner's manuals, just
to figure out, you know, how to drive the car,
what all the switch physicians were, what the you know,
the generic information that anybody would want. But I was
looking like my poor Vet. When I bought my two
thousand and seven. Poor Vet, I got the Chevrolet Shop
Repair Manuals, which is the whole bookshelf of everything you
(29:30):
need to know, which is what I wanted. And I
was trying to look for the same thing for this
Ford f one fifty and the only thing I could
find was a factory manuals dot com that you had
to I was still trying to interpret and decipher what
they and what the different users felt about the manuals
(29:54):
they got from them. And again, it's not like in
the old days. You could go to the OEM in
the back of your MO owner's manual and fine, here's
how to contact forward to get an OEM.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Right you would, right, you would write to Helm h
Elm or whoever was making the books at the time. Yeah,
they don't do that the car companies. The car companies
don't offer printed shop manuals anymore. You're either gonna go online.
You're gonna go look at all Data and look at
an All Data DIY subscription or Mitchell and look at
Mitchell DIY subscription, and they vary in price anywhere from
thirty five to eighty bucks for the year, and it
(30:28):
just becomes part of the process. It's and the reason
they do that, Tom is it's just the sheer volume
of information, you know, it's it's not it's not the
service manual procedures that you know changes it and sometimes
they do, but it's the amount of bulletins that get
published per vehicle because of the amount of electronics that
are on vehicles today and the need to you know,
(30:51):
update software or change software, or change a diagnostic routine
because once it's been out in the world for two years,
they find out they had a bad run of XYZ
part and they need to change how they approach the
overall repair. I haven't seen a printed shop manual, frou.
I haven't used the printed shop manual in the better
(31:12):
part of twenty years. Unless somebody's bringing me something along.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Well, I was looking for the equivalent and an else
or a DVD or something like that, realizing they didn't
want to send you two hundred pounds worth of books.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Right, and they don't offer that anymore. They don't do
that anymore. It's like you can't even it's hard to
buy a laptop now with a DVD player in it
for that simple reason because everything is online, you know,
and this is this is technology. I'm kind of stunned
to hear the part about the shop manual. I get
the owner's manual in the vehicle. That to me is annoying.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
There's no yeah. For instance, if you want to drive
a car, and so you buy a brand new car
you haven't bought one in five to ten years, even
five years, and you get in and you're just trying
to find all the right switches and all the electronics
now that they into the car for all kinds of
safety reasons that can really screw you up. And then
(32:08):
all the inner I found with this F one fifty
it's an extended cab with the short doors in the back.
I pulled the seats out of it like I did
in my twenty seventeen Toyota Hybrid or Highlander. And as
soon as I pulled the seats out, all the electronics
on the safety features with the seat belts in the
(32:29):
back seat kept getting me warning. So I went and
I went, and I stopped at a four dealership and
I said, Hey, what's gives with this? So the guys
couldn't even explain it. So I just figured, well, okay,
I got to put all the seat belt wiring back in.
For instance, my Highlander that was twenty seventeen, I was
(32:49):
able to take all the back seats out, disconnect all
the wiring, tuck come under the carpets, and use it
as a two seat vehicle as a truck basically, and
then no problems. When he did that to the Ford,
I found out you had to reconnect all the electronic
wiring and the seat belts in the back seat or
you would have constant alarms going off that the back
(33:13):
seat belts weren't functional.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, you're gonna and you're gonna, Tom guy, you're gonna
find that the newer vehicles all do that, and that's
and that's the issue. So and it all has to
do with ads and all the safety controls and all
the safety features. I would take a look at all data.
I would take a look at Mitchell. Perhaps they're going
to find your shop manual online as far as the
owner's manual, I would suggest, and I'm sure you've already
(33:35):
done this, go back to the dealer and ask them
is there a source for an owner's manual on DVD
or a way to download it off lines? So at
least you have a PDF of the shop manual. But yeah,
times are a change, and I agree with you. There's
nothing like being able to sit at the kitchen table
with a cup of coffee and read through the owner's
manual on how something operates. Let us know if you
find something. Tom, I'm curious, and I'm sure everybody else is,
(33:57):
and I wish you luck. I'm running Indy in the
car Doctor. We're back right this put back Ron named
the car Doctor. Let's let's wind things down with this.
(34:17):
An email from Alan Allen's writes, my wife's friend Andrew,
she has a twenty thirteen Jeep Patriot two Leader with
one hundred and fifty thousand miles, was given an estimate
for this engine. She was told that air was getting
into the engine I told her more info is needed, codes,
et cetera. She said she has not been driving with
the heat on, or she has been driving with the
heat on to keep it from overheating. The engine will
be a reman with a three year warranty. Not sure
(34:38):
about mileage, your thoughts. And it was a forty one
hundred dollars engine. Now I don't know if that's forty
one hundred dollars parts in labor Allen or if that's
forty one hundred dollars labor Jeep Patriots a little bit
involved doing an engine on, but you know, and then
where's the engine coming from it? Is it a reputable
national rebuilder? What if she's traveling with it? Can she
still get its service if she breaks down? And you
(34:59):
know she's getting it done in New York State, it
looks like if she breaks down in California, is there
a warranty going to be a national coverage thing or
just what I mean? The alternative if it turns out
to be a head gasket is why not put a
bottle a kcal ultimate in it. KCl ultimate is rated
for head gaskets. It's got a third more cooling seal
are in it, we know how good KCAL is here.
(35:21):
We talk about it all the time. Matter of fact,
we had a customer come into the shop this week,
a new guy with a two thousand and one four
Taurus with a head gasket issue. He was told by
another shop and he was getting prices on engines. I
told him to put a bottle a KCAL Ultimate in it.
He's coming back next week for the front endwork because
CaCl Ultimate fixed his head gasket problem for a whole
lot less than having to replace the engine on a
twenty year old vehicle. So perhaps you should try that.
(35:43):
You'll find it at kcal dot com. Let me know
if you need more, But I think that would take
some preliminary good first steps. Till the next time, I'm
ronning Andy and the guard Doctor reminding all of you
good mechanics aren't expensive, they're priceless. See you, s
Host
Ron Ananian
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