October 1, 2023 • 30 mins
Marc Gravallese spent much of his life convincing himself that he couldn’t be gay, despite all evidence to the contrary. Married with four kids, he came out to his wife at age 40… and together they successfully redesigned their family. Today he believes that what most men really need… is a good hug.
Book Recommendation: Our Family Outing: A Memoir of Coming Out and Coming Through - https://a.co/d/09DOavT
Podcast website: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
Book Recommendation: Our Family Outing: A Memoir of Coming Out and Coming Through - https://a.co/d/09DOavT
Podcast website: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[MUSIC]
(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cotton.
I'm a father of brother of son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive in the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age of 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world, I'm gay.
(00:27):
Join me, as I talk with others, who've made this coming out journey late of my
to become who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
[MUSIC]
My guest today spent much of his life convincing himself that he couldn't be gay,
despite all evidence to the contrary.
(00:50):
Married with four kids, he came out to his wife at age 40,
and together, they successfully redesigned their family.
Today he believes what most men need is a really good hug.
Joining me today from Southern California, a personal friend of mine,
Mark Gravallese.
(01:12):
Mark, it is great to have you on today's show to share your story.
Well, thank you, David.
I'm very excited to be here.
So, Mark, I think you and I are similar generation.
I'm into the baby boners.
How about you?
Yeah, I am two early '60s.
I was born.
And so, growing up, what was the community like?
Family dynamics.
So, I grew up in an Italian-American family.
(01:34):
My grandmother's house is usually where we spend most of our Sundays and certainly the holidays.
It was sometimes overwhelming for me as a kid.
I was a shy kid.
One of my shyness had a lot to do with feeling different.
What do you mean by different?
(01:55):
How did you feel different?
I didn't seem to feel and think and act like other boys in my age.
In this wonderful family dynamic, it was very typical for the women to gather in the
kitchen and the men would gather in the TV room watching some sort of sports game.
(02:19):
I wasn't interested in that.
The other boys in the family tended to settle in the family room with the sports and I
was in the kitchen with the women, chatting.
Uncle Ronnie was my godfather and a godfather in an Italian-American Catholic family is a very
important role.
They do become your mentor, guide, life guide, that sort of thing and he was truly my hero.
(02:44):
He noticed that I felt uncomfortable and that I was separated from the others.
It still brings back emotions.
Rather than watch the sports with the other guys, he had come and picked me up out of the
kitchen and put me on the back of his motorcycles and take me for a ride through the woods.
(03:09):
And I felt rescued because I didn't feel like I really belonged in either space.
It was a wonderful feeling too.
Just be riding and feeling free with him on the back of a motorcycle and holding on to him
tight.
Did he ever talk to you when he rescued you and put you on the motorcycle about?
(03:31):
Or were you what you were thinking?
No.
I don't remember conversations with him.
It seemed like it was enough for him to just pick me up and take me away or to take a walk
with me and hold my hand.
(03:51):
What do you think that he would rescue you in those situations as your godfather?
I think he really cared for me.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was gay and not out.
Also when I was raised in Boston, my best friend, his name was Lewis.
(04:16):
We used to do everything together.
I mean spend every day together exploring the woods and sleepovers and we had a real special
relationship and I felt a connection to him that I think he didn't feel to me.
(04:38):
I didn't know what it was at the time.
But I would almost say it was a pre-adolescent sexual attraction that I had to him.
Not really understanding it at that time.
But I could tell that there was something more different about how I felt for him than he
(05:02):
felt for me.
He felt very close to me and I was his best friend no doubt but it was different.
When did you start to have more conscious thoughts about your sexual orientation?
Or the way you felt about other things?
That was probably around age 10 when I moved to the Washington DC area.
It was very clear that my guy friends I was attracted to.
(05:28):
I often made friendships based on that attraction to them.
My new best friend in the Washington DC area shared that.
That affirmed to me that my feelings were also attached to my sexuality.
(05:49):
This was in the early 70s.
The gay community for the first time was really starting to come out and be noticed.
But because of that, you know, whenever any movement is strong there is a counter movement
and there was.
And Anita Bryant was a spokesperson for oranges or orange juice or something like that.
(06:13):
Do you remember that?
Yeah, it was the Florida Orange Growers Association.
Oh, okay.
I would be happy.
Well, she was also very outspoken against the gay movement and Gays in general.
And I saw that on the TV.
And that influenced your thoughts to that, "Oh, you're from exploring who you thought you
(06:35):
were."
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
There were two things.
This counter-gay movement made gay people seem very evil and not worthy of God and God's
love.
And I felt so totally opposite of that.
(06:55):
I felt very loved by God.
And my knowledge of God and my understanding of God at that time, which was very much a
Catholic based understanding of God.
And I felt very good about that.
So I was like, "Well, I must not be gay because I'm not an evil person.
I think I'm a really good person."
(07:19):
The other thing that made it difficult for me to embrace the idea that I might be gay
or that I was gay was the only figures that I remember who were out and gay were Liberace
and Richard Simmons.
And they were both very flamboyant, almost clown-like in my mind.
(07:44):
I would say though that they weren't out and gay though to the public.
They were just flamboyant entertainers as to whatever I remember.
I never remember any tag on them as being gay.
Well, you know it could very well be.
I remember after Liberace's is death,
I remember people talking about how he was gay.
But not when I remember him as a kid watching him on, you know, Ed Sullivan or something performing.
(08:05):
I thought it looked awfully fun.
You know, it looked like these men were having a ton of fun and that sort of thing.
But I didn't resonate with that.
There were a couple of other things that made me think, "Well, there's no way I could
be gay."
And that was ever since I was a young kid, I knew a few things.
(08:29):
One, I wanted to be a father, a dad.
There was no doubt in my mind that when I grew up I was going to be a dad.
That is just, I just felt that in my core.
I also wanted to be a priest.
And those two things didn't go together, at least not in the Catholic Church.
(08:53):
And certainly all three didn't go together.
It couldn't be either one of those in be gay, at least that was from my perception at the
time.
A gay dad and a priest.
Right.
So I was like, "Okay, I'm definitely not gay."
There was another thing that factored in and this was now when I was, I guess, 12 years
(09:13):
old and I entered into seventh grade that was junior high for us.
I fell in love with this one girl.
Her name was Lorraine.
And we just felt such a deep connection to each other.
Now I got to say, I didn't have the same feelings, adolescent, you know, puberty feelings
(09:38):
for her that I had for most of my guy friends.
There it wasn't a sexual thing at all.
It was really spiritual from the beginning.
But again in my mind I was like, "Well, I'm in love with this girl."
We dated for a little bit until her father found out and said we were too young to date.
(10:03):
So then I tried dating other girls.
Girls just didn't interest in me at all.
I did it throughout junior high and high school while my interest in guys continued and got
stronger.
Really?
You eventually got married to Lorraine.
Yeah.
And had four kids.
(10:24):
That's right.
I thought going to college would be an opportunity for me to explore if I was gay.
But this time now the 70s, the early 70s fervor was done.
It was the late 70s.
It just, the whole conversation I still had in the back of my mind that it was wrong.
More of my interview with Marc in just a moment.
(10:45):
But first, I'd like to recommend a book I found helpful in my coming out process.
Our Family Outing (10:49):
A Memoir of Coming Out and Coming Through by Leigh Ann Taylor and
Joe Cobb.
This former husband and wife team, both deeply rooted in their church and family, tell each
side of their story and how they face the truth about Joe's sexuality and create a new
way of being family.
For more books and online resources about coming out late in life, visit outlaidwithdavid.com.
(11:15):
What was that moment when you steered it yourself in a mirror or just said, "I'm gay.
When did you accept that?"
Oh my gosh.
That was so many years later that was when I was 40.
40?
Yeah.
I had, I put it on hold during college because of AIDS.
(11:37):
The AIDS epidemic broke out and I said, "Oh, I am not exploring this."
After college, I fell into the same trap of dating a woman and then there was an expectation
that we would get married because we were dating for two years and I didn't love her and
I had no attraction to her.
That's when I told the rain.
(11:59):
I told her, "When am I going to meet someone like you?"
In the back of my mind, I meant her but a guy.
When I said that, we all of a sudden fell into this pattern where we felt the deep love
we have for each other in years later we were married.
(12:20):
Had kids, I'm shortly into our marriage about four years, maybe, into our marriage.
I told her that I was attracted to men because it was haunting me in our marriage.
It was haunting me.
Were you exploring at that time with men or just thinking about it?
(12:42):
Let me think.
I was exploring it.
I was exploring it and that added to the guilt.
Somehow, at part of it, I justified to me while I'm not cheating because it's not with
another woman and I'm not developing any emotional ties.
I was really just exploring the sexuality and realized how much it was a part of me.
(13:11):
By this point, I had already achieved a couple of goals.
I became a father and I had converted to the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ
of Later Day Saints, and was now an elder in the Church.
Now I was also in the priesthood.
It was wonderful.
Those things were wonderful.
(13:32):
I loved it.
I loved serving.
I loved it deepening my relationship to God again.
We spent many years in therapy.
That was probably now in my early 30s when I told her I was attracted to men 10 years later.
I told her I said, "You know the attraction is not just simply an attraction.
(13:53):
I'm gay."
I've made it much more complicated than it actually is.
I love you.
I love you deeply.
This is to Lorraine.
I can never lose what you and I have.
That is something that is deep, it's spiritual.
(14:15):
I realize where it stands now and I'm a gay man.
We have to figure out what we're going to do with this.
How does she react to when you had that conversation with her?
Well, I mean, she was devastated the first time to even find out 10 years earlier that I was
attracted to men but understood it.
She was a dancer and a choreographer and had been around plenty of men in her career who
(14:40):
were out and gay.
She had sympathy for me for the difficulty that I had all my life having to deal with.
The difficulty of this, tons of compassion and was in a panic like I was.
And an absolute panic, because what would this mean for our relationship?
(15:02):
What would this mean for our family?
And we were both in that state because we couldn't imagine a life without each other.
And we couldn't imagine not raising our kids together.
How old were your children at the time?
So we had two sons that were 11 and 13, very difficult ages having to deal with something
(15:25):
around sexuality because they're coming into their own.
And the daughter who was five, six and another daughter who was one year old, so just born.
And our family felt complete that way.
The girls just grew up at that point with a dad being gay.
(15:47):
There was no difference to them.
The boys had a very difficult time at first.
How did your family react to coming out?
Your parents, your extended family members?
All were fine.
They were like, "Oh, we never knew."
And I'm like, "Really?
You never knew?"
And part of it was because of my relationship with Lorraine since I was a little kid.
(16:10):
They saw how close we were in the family that we were creating.
And I mean, really in many ways from an outside view, you know, we had the white picket fence.
And sort of the ideal family.
(16:32):
You're listening to Out Late with David.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you
map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we are all unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back.
You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
(16:55):
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward
to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit DavidCuttonCoaching.com.
Did you stay together as a couple after you came out?
(17:17):
After I came out within two years, we divorced.
We decided, Lorraine actually decided.
I was willing to consider other options, you know, an open marriage, whatever.
And she really felt strongly that we needed to divorce.
(17:37):
And I'm glad she did because it really offered the opportunity for an absolute new beginning.
For both of us.
You know, clearly she had to be missing something from me throughout our whole marriage.
As a gay man, I couldn't give her what a straight man could in terms of his real desire for her,
(18:06):
you know, and I wanted her to have that.
She deserved to have that.
What a beautiful person she was.
It comes through her pain and having to deal with us changing our relationship and realizing
that she had ignored something that she, I'm sure she felt she had intuitive feelings around.
(18:37):
She was so compassionate to me.
It's really important.
It's really important to me on coming out and on really embracing beings, a gay man.
What did you work together then to raise the children as they continued to grow?
(18:57):
Yeah, I moved out just two blocks away, so we could raise the kids together into a town
home and she remarried.
I was thrilled about that.
To a wonderful guy.
He actually had been my best friend for a few years.
(19:18):
I was thrilled that she had someone that was so good and so kind.
We established her house, which was our, had been our house as the primary residence for
the kids.
We didn't want them to feel divided and sleeping half of the week here and moving, so during
(19:41):
the week, you know, while they were in school, you know, they had their bedrooms and, you know,
kids' bedroom is their whole life.
And then it became special to stay over that, you know, the rain and I would laugh sometimes
and say, Oh my gosh, every parent should raise their kids divorced like this because
(20:02):
you got half of the week as adult time, you know, to do other things.
She was able to get back into dance, you know, because she had some free time.
And I was able to start to involve myself in the gay communities.
So it was really a beautiful time in our lives.
(20:26):
Not easy to figure it out and work it out, but the kids got to see us as loving parents.
Again, it's been a wonderful journey since then.
I couldn't have asked for a better partner in that.
It was one of the things that helped me become and realize that I'm a natural coach.
(20:52):
I enjoy more helping people with their lives.
Well, I will give you a personal testimonial.
As you know, when I came out to myself, you were the first person I called because I've
known you for 40 years and crouched down by the side of my house in terror saying, "Marc,
(21:14):
what do I do now?"
And you were the one I came to by the example I'd seen in the life that you were leading.
And I knew you before you were out and after you're out and how you supported and loved
your family.
But through that the whole time.
So blessings to you, my friend.
Well, thank you.
It's friends like you when you feel like you can put your arms around them and just hold
(21:37):
them where they're at.
And that's what I learned from my uncle.
I told you about how he picked me up and hugged me.
I applied that to my kids when they were angry or upset or going through something difficult
in life.
(21:57):
That actually became the focus once I became a life coach of my initial work.
And I focused on men going through some life transition.
But I called my practice, "Naked Hugs."
Naked is just being authentic and true and totally open and be vulnerable.
(22:25):
I came to realize to my surprise that a lot of gay men or men coming out as gay or by
or anything other and straight and even a lot of straight men just need a really good hug.
(22:46):
I'm I use the acronym, "Hug" as "Healing Ugly Guy Shit."
I love it.
I love it.
Because we all have this shit inside us and we just need someone to hug us and help us
heal it.
That's it.
And that's why we're doing this podcast because you'll be giving these hugs to men that
you'll never meet.
So heal your story and be inspired and comforted by that.
(23:10):
Yeah.
You know, Dave, you have inspired me with doing this work.
This is good stuff.
Sharing stories is just so important.
Everyone's story is different and yet there's similar strings that go throughout it and
people can relate to one thing or another.
(23:35):
I'd like to make sure we honor Lorraine because while she was there for you during your coming
out, I know her life story and you were there for her for the challenge that she had after
you separated and divorced.
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
She died two years ago.
Rest cancer.
Clearly.
(23:55):
You have a stating below for her husband, for me, for her kids and for her whole family.
And she fought for me and she fought for her kids.
And she always fought with a ton of love.
And it's a good example for all of us.
Let's not forget love.
(24:16):
Yeah.
Blessing you, Lorraine.
The heart of this, right?
So how have your children reacted to all of this change during their growing up?
It's been a real opportunity for the kids.
Quick story.
I was driving my son home from football practice.
He was in the front seat and two of his buddies were in the back, football buddies were in
(24:37):
the back.
And they were talking about how this other kid was so gay.
And they meant that he was just ridiculous.
He was a clown.
He was stupid.
And how they didn't like him.
(24:58):
And they kept on referring to him as gay.
After those boys got out of the car, my son turned to me and cried and he said, "Oh, Dad, I'm so sorry.
I never realized how horrible that sounds."
And so that was a lesson for him.
So you know that you've got to consider what you say more carefully and how it can hurt
(25:19):
people to associate gay with stupid and clownish and someone they didn't want to associate
with having nothing to do with that person's actual sexuality.
By the time they finished high school, it was a non-issue.
My girls again just grew up in it.
One of the avenues that had opened for my third child, the first daughter, is she currently
(25:43):
as an adult is going through a period of embracing her transself and trying to understand where
she identifies.
And that has been particularly helpful to have a gay dad.
(26:05):
And for Marc, now that he's out, what's life been like after coming out?
Challenges, new experiences, dating, social life, work life, family life, all of that big
world ahead.
Dating for many, I dated for like 20 years.
I'm now in a partner relationship.
(26:27):
Dating for 20 years was wonderful and hectic and horrible, but it was good.
I had a number of good relationships that lasted a few years that would really help me
learn and grow about myself and what I really wanted.
(26:48):
Yeah, it has really helped me to where I am today where I'm in just this amazing partnership
with Robert.
They're very autonomous as individuals and very together as a couple.
It's been a beautiful ride.
Like I said, tumultuous at sometimes, crazy at times, lonely.
(27:11):
All of those things happen.
I thought all gay men were the most, before I came out, flat to be the most wonderful people
in the world.
Well, they're all just people too.
And they are.
And they're not.
And they particularly have a lot of stuff, well, that ugly guy shit, that they got to work
(27:34):
out.
They need lots.
You know, that was thrust upon them and it's been wonderful to hold a great many of them.
What advice do you have for others who may be struggling with their sexual identity or
orientation and coming out?
It's totally okay to be afraid.
It's totally okay to break down in tears and think I can never make this happen.
(28:02):
And it's totally okay to just like relish in some of your experiences as you're exploring
your sexuality.
So, now that you've been out for quite some time and established your life and stable family
relationship, what's the biggest takeaway from the experience of coming out and accepting
(28:24):
your sexual orientation?
It's so good to discover who you are.
And that goes for everyone and it has to do with sexuality.
It has to do with your own inner morality.
It has to do with everything, every aspect about you.
(28:47):
It's worth your life journey to discover who you are because there's just a piece that
comes with it.
Thank you Marc today for sharing your story.
It's beautiful.
I'm sure others will benefit from hearing this and thank you for your time today.
(29:07):
You are very welcome.
All right.
Thank you.
Take care.
Marc was the first person I came out to seeking his advice and counsel on my next steps and
how to deal with my own acceptance that I was indeed gay.
Even with my close personal connection, what struck me about his story is how he was able
to build the life he felt he needed that it being true to himself, living authentically
(29:31):
and proudly as a gay man and the importance of also being a father, while being so open
and honest with his partner and honoring her needs.
I would say the relationship with her was unique and would be the envy of others in similar
situations.
Additionally, his vulnerability was a superpower and ally in developing a life he needed to
thrive.
It didn't come with our consequences, like he said.
(29:52):
It's been a beautiful ride, tumultuous, sometimes crazy at times, sometimes lonely, but
it's worth your life journey to discover who you are because there's just a piece that
comes with it.
And with that, see you next time on Out Late with David.
To hear more episodes, visit OutLateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching
(30:14):
services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.
[MUSIC]
(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cotton.
I'm a father of brother of son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive in the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age of 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world, I'm gay.
(00:27):
Join me, as I talk with others, who've made this coming out journey late of my
to become who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
[MUSIC]
My guest today spent much of his life convincing himself that he couldn't be gay,
despite all evidence to the contrary.
(00:50):
Married with four kids, he came out to his wife at age 40,
and together, they successfully redesigned their family.
Today he believes what most men need is a really good hug.
Joining me today from Southern California, a personal friend of mine,
Mark Gravallese.
(01:12):
Mark, it is great to have you on today's show to share your story.
Well, thank you, David.
I'm very excited to be here.
So, Mark, I think you and I are similar generation.
I'm into the baby boners.
How about you?
Yeah, I am two early '60s.
I was born.
And so, growing up, what was the community like?
Family dynamics.
So, I grew up in an Italian-American family.
(01:34):
My grandmother's house is usually where we spend most of our Sundays and certainly the holidays.
It was sometimes overwhelming for me as a kid.
I was a shy kid.
One of my shyness had a lot to do with feeling different.
What do you mean by different?
(01:55):
How did you feel different?
I didn't seem to feel and think and act like other boys in my age.
In this wonderful family dynamic, it was very typical for the women to gather in the
kitchen and the men would gather in the TV room watching some sort of sports game.
(02:19):
I wasn't interested in that.
The other boys in the family tended to settle in the family room with the sports and I
was in the kitchen with the women, chatting.
Uncle Ronnie was my godfather and a godfather in an Italian-American Catholic family is a very
important role.
They do become your mentor, guide, life guide, that sort of thing and he was truly my hero.
(02:44):
He noticed that I felt uncomfortable and that I was separated from the others.
It still brings back emotions.
Rather than watch the sports with the other guys, he had come and picked me up out of the
kitchen and put me on the back of his motorcycles and take me for a ride through the woods.
(03:09):
And I felt rescued because I didn't feel like I really belonged in either space.
It was a wonderful feeling too.
Just be riding and feeling free with him on the back of a motorcycle and holding on to him
tight.
Did he ever talk to you when he rescued you and put you on the motorcycle about?
(03:31):
Or were you what you were thinking?
No.
I don't remember conversations with him.
It seemed like it was enough for him to just pick me up and take me away or to take a walk
with me and hold my hand.
(03:51):
What do you think that he would rescue you in those situations as your godfather?
I think he really cared for me.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was gay and not out.
Also when I was raised in Boston, my best friend, his name was Lewis.
(04:16):
We used to do everything together.
I mean spend every day together exploring the woods and sleepovers and we had a real special
relationship and I felt a connection to him that I think he didn't feel to me.
(04:38):
I didn't know what it was at the time.
But I would almost say it was a pre-adolescent sexual attraction that I had to him.
Not really understanding it at that time.
But I could tell that there was something more different about how I felt for him than he
(05:02):
felt for me.
He felt very close to me and I was his best friend no doubt but it was different.
When did you start to have more conscious thoughts about your sexual orientation?
Or the way you felt about other things?
That was probably around age 10 when I moved to the Washington DC area.
It was very clear that my guy friends I was attracted to.
(05:28):
I often made friendships based on that attraction to them.
My new best friend in the Washington DC area shared that.
That affirmed to me that my feelings were also attached to my sexuality.
(05:49):
This was in the early 70s.
The gay community for the first time was really starting to come out and be noticed.
But because of that, you know, whenever any movement is strong there is a counter movement
and there was.
And Anita Bryant was a spokesperson for oranges or orange juice or something like that.
(06:13):
Do you remember that?
Yeah, it was the Florida Orange Growers Association.
Oh, okay.
I would be happy.
Well, she was also very outspoken against the gay movement and Gays in general.
And I saw that on the TV.
And that influenced your thoughts to that, "Oh, you're from exploring who you thought you
(06:35):
were."
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
There were two things.
This counter-gay movement made gay people seem very evil and not worthy of God and God's
love.
And I felt so totally opposite of that.
(06:55):
I felt very loved by God.
And my knowledge of God and my understanding of God at that time, which was very much a
Catholic based understanding of God.
And I felt very good about that.
So I was like, "Well, I must not be gay because I'm not an evil person.
I think I'm a really good person."
(07:19):
The other thing that made it difficult for me to embrace the idea that I might be gay
or that I was gay was the only figures that I remember who were out and gay were Liberace
and Richard Simmons.
And they were both very flamboyant, almost clown-like in my mind.
(07:44):
I would say though that they weren't out and gay though to the public.
They were just flamboyant entertainers as to whatever I remember.
I never remember any tag on them as being gay.
Well, you know it could very well be.
I remember after Liberace's is death,
I remember people talking about how he was gay.
But not when I remember him as a kid watching him on, you know, Ed Sullivan or something performing.
(08:05):
I thought it looked awfully fun.
You know, it looked like these men were having a ton of fun and that sort of thing.
But I didn't resonate with that.
There were a couple of other things that made me think, "Well, there's no way I could
be gay."
And that was ever since I was a young kid, I knew a few things.
(08:29):
One, I wanted to be a father, a dad.
There was no doubt in my mind that when I grew up I was going to be a dad.
That is just, I just felt that in my core.
I also wanted to be a priest.
And those two things didn't go together, at least not in the Catholic Church.
(08:53):
And certainly all three didn't go together.
It couldn't be either one of those in be gay, at least that was from my perception at the
time.
A gay dad and a priest.
Right.
So I was like, "Okay, I'm definitely not gay."
There was another thing that factored in and this was now when I was, I guess, 12 years
(09:13):
old and I entered into seventh grade that was junior high for us.
I fell in love with this one girl.
Her name was Lorraine.
And we just felt such a deep connection to each other.
Now I got to say, I didn't have the same feelings, adolescent, you know, puberty feelings
(09:38):
for her that I had for most of my guy friends.
There it wasn't a sexual thing at all.
It was really spiritual from the beginning.
But again in my mind I was like, "Well, I'm in love with this girl."
We dated for a little bit until her father found out and said we were too young to date.
(10:03):
So then I tried dating other girls.
Girls just didn't interest in me at all.
I did it throughout junior high and high school while my interest in guys continued and got
stronger.
Really?
You eventually got married to Lorraine.
Yeah.
And had four kids.
(10:24):
That's right.
I thought going to college would be an opportunity for me to explore if I was gay.
But this time now the 70s, the early 70s fervor was done.
It was the late 70s.
It just, the whole conversation I still had in the back of my mind that it was wrong.
More of my interview with Marc in just a moment.
(10:45):
But first, I'd like to recommend a book I found helpful in my coming out process.
Our Family Outing (10:49):
A Memoir of Coming Out and Coming Through by Leigh Ann Taylor and
Joe Cobb.
This former husband and wife team, both deeply rooted in their church and family, tell each
side of their story and how they face the truth about Joe's sexuality and create a new
way of being family.
For more books and online resources about coming out late in life, visit outlaidwithdavid.com.
(11:15):
What was that moment when you steered it yourself in a mirror or just said, "I'm gay.
When did you accept that?"
Oh my gosh.
That was so many years later that was when I was 40.
40?
Yeah.
I had, I put it on hold during college because of AIDS.
(11:37):
The AIDS epidemic broke out and I said, "Oh, I am not exploring this."
After college, I fell into the same trap of dating a woman and then there was an expectation
that we would get married because we were dating for two years and I didn't love her and
I had no attraction to her.
That's when I told the rain.
(11:59):
I told her, "When am I going to meet someone like you?"
In the back of my mind, I meant her but a guy.
When I said that, we all of a sudden fell into this pattern where we felt the deep love
we have for each other in years later we were married.
(12:20):
Had kids, I'm shortly into our marriage about four years, maybe, into our marriage.
I told her that I was attracted to men because it was haunting me in our marriage.
It was haunting me.
Were you exploring at that time with men or just thinking about it?
(12:42):
Let me think.
I was exploring it.
I was exploring it and that added to the guilt.
Somehow, at part of it, I justified to me while I'm not cheating because it's not with
another woman and I'm not developing any emotional ties.
I was really just exploring the sexuality and realized how much it was a part of me.
(13:11):
By this point, I had already achieved a couple of goals.
I became a father and I had converted to the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ
of Later Day Saints, and was now an elder in the Church.
Now I was also in the priesthood.
It was wonderful.
Those things were wonderful.
(13:32):
I loved it.
I loved serving.
I loved it deepening my relationship to God again.
We spent many years in therapy.
That was probably now in my early 30s when I told her I was attracted to men 10 years later.
I told her I said, "You know the attraction is not just simply an attraction.
(13:53):
I'm gay."
I've made it much more complicated than it actually is.
I love you.
I love you deeply.
This is to Lorraine.
I can never lose what you and I have.
That is something that is deep, it's spiritual.
(14:15):
I realize where it stands now and I'm a gay man.
We have to figure out what we're going to do with this.
How does she react to when you had that conversation with her?
Well, I mean, she was devastated the first time to even find out 10 years earlier that I was
attracted to men but understood it.
She was a dancer and a choreographer and had been around plenty of men in her career who
(14:40):
were out and gay.
She had sympathy for me for the difficulty that I had all my life having to deal with.
The difficulty of this, tons of compassion and was in a panic like I was.
And an absolute panic, because what would this mean for our relationship?
(15:02):
What would this mean for our family?
And we were both in that state because we couldn't imagine a life without each other.
And we couldn't imagine not raising our kids together.
How old were your children at the time?
So we had two sons that were 11 and 13, very difficult ages having to deal with something
(15:25):
around sexuality because they're coming into their own.
And the daughter who was five, six and another daughter who was one year old, so just born.
And our family felt complete that way.
The girls just grew up at that point with a dad being gay.
(15:47):
There was no difference to them.
The boys had a very difficult time at first.
How did your family react to coming out?
Your parents, your extended family members?
All were fine.
They were like, "Oh, we never knew."
And I'm like, "Really?
You never knew?"
And part of it was because of my relationship with Lorraine since I was a little kid.
(16:10):
They saw how close we were in the family that we were creating.
And I mean, really in many ways from an outside view, you know, we had the white picket fence.
And sort of the ideal family.
(16:32):
You're listening to Out Late with David.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you
map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we are all unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back.
You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
(16:55):
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward
to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit DavidCuttonCoaching.com.
Did you stay together as a couple after you came out?
(17:17):
After I came out within two years, we divorced.
We decided, Lorraine actually decided.
I was willing to consider other options, you know, an open marriage, whatever.
And she really felt strongly that we needed to divorce.
(17:37):
And I'm glad she did because it really offered the opportunity for an absolute new beginning.
For both of us.
You know, clearly she had to be missing something from me throughout our whole marriage.
As a gay man, I couldn't give her what a straight man could in terms of his real desire for her,
(18:06):
you know, and I wanted her to have that.
She deserved to have that.
What a beautiful person she was.
It comes through her pain and having to deal with us changing our relationship and realizing
that she had ignored something that she, I'm sure she felt she had intuitive feelings around.
(18:37):
She was so compassionate to me.
It's really important.
It's really important to me on coming out and on really embracing beings, a gay man.
What did you work together then to raise the children as they continued to grow?
(18:57):
Yeah, I moved out just two blocks away, so we could raise the kids together into a town
home and she remarried.
I was thrilled about that.
To a wonderful guy.
He actually had been my best friend for a few years.
(19:18):
I was thrilled that she had someone that was so good and so kind.
We established her house, which was our, had been our house as the primary residence for
the kids.
We didn't want them to feel divided and sleeping half of the week here and moving, so during
(19:41):
the week, you know, while they were in school, you know, they had their bedrooms and, you know,
kids' bedroom is their whole life.
And then it became special to stay over that, you know, the rain and I would laugh sometimes
and say, Oh my gosh, every parent should raise their kids divorced like this because
(20:02):
you got half of the week as adult time, you know, to do other things.
She was able to get back into dance, you know, because she had some free time.
And I was able to start to involve myself in the gay communities.
So it was really a beautiful time in our lives.
(20:26):
Not easy to figure it out and work it out, but the kids got to see us as loving parents.
Again, it's been a wonderful journey since then.
I couldn't have asked for a better partner in that.
It was one of the things that helped me become and realize that I'm a natural coach.
(20:52):
I enjoy more helping people with their lives.
Well, I will give you a personal testimonial.
As you know, when I came out to myself, you were the first person I called because I've
known you for 40 years and crouched down by the side of my house in terror saying, "Marc,
(21:14):
what do I do now?"
And you were the one I came to by the example I'd seen in the life that you were leading.
And I knew you before you were out and after you're out and how you supported and loved
your family.
But through that the whole time.
So blessings to you, my friend.
Well, thank you.
It's friends like you when you feel like you can put your arms around them and just hold
(21:37):
them where they're at.
And that's what I learned from my uncle.
I told you about how he picked me up and hugged me.
I applied that to my kids when they were angry or upset or going through something difficult
in life.
(21:57):
That actually became the focus once I became a life coach of my initial work.
And I focused on men going through some life transition.
But I called my practice, "Naked Hugs."
Naked is just being authentic and true and totally open and be vulnerable.
(22:25):
I came to realize to my surprise that a lot of gay men or men coming out as gay or by
or anything other and straight and even a lot of straight men just need a really good hug.
(22:46):
I'm I use the acronym, "Hug" as "Healing Ugly Guy Shit."
I love it.
I love it.
Because we all have this shit inside us and we just need someone to hug us and help us
heal it.
That's it.
And that's why we're doing this podcast because you'll be giving these hugs to men that
you'll never meet.
So heal your story and be inspired and comforted by that.
(23:10):
Yeah.
You know, Dave, you have inspired me with doing this work.
This is good stuff.
Sharing stories is just so important.
Everyone's story is different and yet there's similar strings that go throughout it and
people can relate to one thing or another.
(23:35):
I'd like to make sure we honor Lorraine because while she was there for you during your coming
out, I know her life story and you were there for her for the challenge that she had after
you separated and divorced.
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
She died two years ago.
Rest cancer.
Clearly.
(23:55):
You have a stating below for her husband, for me, for her kids and for her whole family.
And she fought for me and she fought for her kids.
And she always fought with a ton of love.
And it's a good example for all of us.
Let's not forget love.
(24:16):
Yeah.
Blessing you, Lorraine.
The heart of this, right?
So how have your children reacted to all of this change during their growing up?
It's been a real opportunity for the kids.
Quick story.
I was driving my son home from football practice.
He was in the front seat and two of his buddies were in the back, football buddies were in
(24:37):
the back.
And they were talking about how this other kid was so gay.
And they meant that he was just ridiculous.
He was a clown.
He was stupid.
And how they didn't like him.
(24:58):
And they kept on referring to him as gay.
After those boys got out of the car, my son turned to me and cried and he said, "Oh, Dad, I'm so sorry.
I never realized how horrible that sounds."
And so that was a lesson for him.
So you know that you've got to consider what you say more carefully and how it can hurt
(25:19):
people to associate gay with stupid and clownish and someone they didn't want to associate
with having nothing to do with that person's actual sexuality.
By the time they finished high school, it was a non-issue.
My girls again just grew up in it.
One of the avenues that had opened for my third child, the first daughter, is she currently
(25:43):
as an adult is going through a period of embracing her transself and trying to understand where
she identifies.
And that has been particularly helpful to have a gay dad.
(26:05):
And for Marc, now that he's out, what's life been like after coming out?
Challenges, new experiences, dating, social life, work life, family life, all of that big
world ahead.
Dating for many, I dated for like 20 years.
I'm now in a partner relationship.
(26:27):
Dating for 20 years was wonderful and hectic and horrible, but it was good.
I had a number of good relationships that lasted a few years that would really help me
learn and grow about myself and what I really wanted.
(26:48):
Yeah, it has really helped me to where I am today where I'm in just this amazing partnership
with Robert.
They're very autonomous as individuals and very together as a couple.
It's been a beautiful ride.
Like I said, tumultuous at sometimes, crazy at times, lonely.
(27:11):
All of those things happen.
I thought all gay men were the most, before I came out, flat to be the most wonderful people
in the world.
Well, they're all just people too.
And they are.
And they're not.
And they particularly have a lot of stuff, well, that ugly guy shit, that they got to work
(27:34):
out.
They need lots.
You know, that was thrust upon them and it's been wonderful to hold a great many of them.
What advice do you have for others who may be struggling with their sexual identity or
orientation and coming out?
It's totally okay to be afraid.
It's totally okay to break down in tears and think I can never make this happen.
(28:02):
And it's totally okay to just like relish in some of your experiences as you're exploring
your sexuality.
So, now that you've been out for quite some time and established your life and stable family
relationship, what's the biggest takeaway from the experience of coming out and accepting
(28:24):
your sexual orientation?
It's so good to discover who you are.
And that goes for everyone and it has to do with sexuality.
It has to do with your own inner morality.
It has to do with everything, every aspect about you.
(28:47):
It's worth your life journey to discover who you are because there's just a piece that
comes with it.
Thank you Marc today for sharing your story.
It's beautiful.
I'm sure others will benefit from hearing this and thank you for your time today.
(29:07):
You are very welcome.
All right.
Thank you.
Take care.
Marc was the first person I came out to seeking his advice and counsel on my next steps and
how to deal with my own acceptance that I was indeed gay.
Even with my close personal connection, what struck me about his story is how he was able
to build the life he felt he needed that it being true to himself, living authentically
(29:31):
and proudly as a gay man and the importance of also being a father, while being so open
and honest with his partner and honoring her needs.
I would say the relationship with her was unique and would be the envy of others in similar
situations.
Additionally, his vulnerability was a superpower and ally in developing a life he needed to
thrive.
It didn't come with our consequences, like he said.
(29:52):
It's been a beautiful ride, tumultuous, sometimes crazy at times, sometimes lonely, but
it's worth your life journey to discover who you are because there's just a piece that
comes with it.
And with that, see you next time on Out Late with David.
To hear more episodes, visit OutLateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching
(30:14):
services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.
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