July 29, 2025 • 24 mins
Tom and Tim are joined by the brilliant Mrinal Rai—Executive Client Advisor at Pomeroy, longtime industry analyst, and award-winning graphic novelist.
Together, they explore the future of Digital Employee Experience (DEX) through the lenses of creativity, AI innovation, and enterprise transformation. Mrinal shares his journey from analyst to advisor, his artistic inspirations, and his unique perspective on how empathy and digital adoption platforms (DAPs) are critical to achieving real business outcomes.
Get the latest edition of the Gartner Magic Quadrant here (https://nexthink.com/gartner-magic-quadrant-dex)
Book your tickets for Nexthink Experience (Boston or London) here: https://nexthink.com/experience
Download Part 1, 'Transformation: Driving Adoption, Productivity, and Change in the AI Era', free of charge right hereÂ
Download Part 2, ‘The Experience Silo: HR, IT, and the Digital Workplace’ here
Together, they explore the future of Digital Employee Experience (DEX) through the lenses of creativity, AI innovation, and enterprise transformation. Mrinal shares his journey from analyst to advisor, his artistic inspirations, and his unique perspective on how empathy and digital adoption platforms (DAPs) are critical to achieving real business outcomes.
Get the latest edition of the Gartner Magic Quadrant here (https://nexthink.com/gartner-magic-quadrant-dex)
Book your tickets for Nexthink Experience (Boston or London) here: https://nexthink.com/experience
Download Part 1, 'Transformation: Driving Adoption, Productivity, and Change in the AI Era', free of charge right hereÂ
Download Part 2, ‘The Experience Silo: HR, IT, and the Digital Workplace’ here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome it, change Makers to the deck Show with Tim
Flower and Tom McGrath. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hallo, change makers, Welcome back to the deck Show. I'm
Tom McGrath. I'm joined as ever by my main man,
Tim Flower. How are you doing, Tim.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Tom good? I hear you've been like me, traveling around
a little bit so curious to catch up on that.
We can we can, We can do that some other
time though, I hope it was a good triple halo.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I've been in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
They wanted to pick my brains about if you okay,
you know they they flew me over, They asked me
some questions and some changes come in, some changes coming
at the West coast as a consequence. But more on
that a nonal listeners and of course being slightly sarcastic,
but speaking of the future, which it is a bit
like visiting the future when you got out west, Tim
(00:50):
from Okay.
Speaker 6 (00:53):
We are joined today by absolutely one of our one
of our favorite analysts and if you will, futurists, Manal
or Tim and I have both been enjoying his work,
both is his analysis and his visual work, which is
I think rather a striking difference and he brings a really,
you know, really sharp perspective on how organizations can can
(01:14):
drive value through smarter digital transformation.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We're delighted to finally have members show man. Now, how
are you doing?
Speaker 7 (01:20):
Thanks Tom, Hi Tim, Great to be here. I'm doing
good and it's great to be part of the DEX Show.
I've been listening to some of the episodes and they're
really interesting and really encouraging for the enterprise clients as
well as the folks I work with. I think they're
all fan of the DEX Show.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
So great to love it.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Love it.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
Mutual appreciation now, because you're absolutely one of our favorite analysts,
I would say one of the most creative analysts out
bet for it. First of all, for anyone not familiar
with your work, maybe give us a potted bio quick overview.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Sure. Thanks. My name is brunal right.
Speaker 7 (01:52):
I am based in India and I have been a
thought leader and industry analyst for a long time. So
I was part of Information Services Group for the last
twelve years. I was tracking digital workplace services and user
computing and I like talking exploring these technologies. We tend
user computing, digital workplace, unified communication, collaboration, enterpress collaboration, and
(02:15):
I recently joined an organization called Pomeroy where I work
as an executive Client advisor, where I work with the
clients understand their key pain points with respect to workplace
and it estate and help them overcome these challenges and
help OMRA develop solutions to address these client issues.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Fab And as anyone who knows just work knows, you bring.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
A little artistic flair to your to your to your
industry analysis to almost everything you do right, and you're
an award winning artist as well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
We read so I attle.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Bit about that side of your of your work and your.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Life, and yeah, yeah, so so.
Speaker 7 (02:50):
I'm also a graphic novelist and a comic book writer,
and I've also written few novels and some comic books.
I was chosen as the best artist or best card
unist in India by Fandom Awards for Indian Comics. And
I do write. I do create those comic books based
on Indian history and scriptures and also about some favorite
(03:12):
genres like horror, crime, the mystery. And I'm actually writing
a book right now which actually relates the Ai revolution
that we are seeing and how can we foresee a
futuristic vision where robots are actually taken over. They've messed
up everything and now the world is coping up. So
that's something it works so morale.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It's always great to connect with with like minded folks
IT pros who share the passion for a specific discipline.
How did you come to specialize in this or how
did you kind of uncover that passion for digital employee
experience specifically?
Speaker 7 (03:49):
Sure, Tim, So, So I've been covering this space for
digital workplace for last twelve years or more. I think
I'm still part of a thought leadership team here. I'm
part of many editor editorial teams for many websites which
write about write articles about workplace, unified communication and collaboration.
So when I started my research on this, I was
actually uh comparing these service providers, global system integrators and
(04:13):
managed service providers who provide these services.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
And that's when I came.
Speaker 7 (04:18):
To know that initially there was a lot of focus
on automation analytics coming from these telemetary tools.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
And that's how I got introduced to the DEX tools.
Speaker 7 (04:26):
And when I two two three years ago, when I
actually started looking at this market, I actually worked on
my own when a comparison of the deck space, and
I actually forced foresee that at that time that the
DEX solutions have a larger scope. It's not just about
telemetry and it's not just about devices. And when I
used to foresee the digital workplace of the future or
(04:48):
the workplace technology ecosystem, I could foresee as a personal
digital assistant or secretary. I'm talking five six years ago,
and I think the foundational step for that future was
to have the analogy that comes from DEX tools.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
So that's how I got.
Speaker 7 (05:02):
Interested in these tools, and that's how I started tracking
maybe next thing many of the competitors in this space,
and that's how I'm always intrigued by how this space
has evolved. It's not just about devices and telemetry anymore.
It covers many more aspects. It covers more than devices
now and it's becoming a strategic area for those enterprise
(05:27):
clients and service providers who want to bring the transformation
in the technology ecosystem. So that's how it started.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
That's cool. You know you've got like Tom said, we
follow your work. You've got a cool post up on LinkedIn.
About a month ago, the cartoon track and Field event
with all the decks, the decks runners lined up at
the starting line obviously, next thing there prominently. You know,
we've spent a long time or a lot of time
looking at this year's Magic Quadrant from Gartner here, next thing.
(05:57):
But what stood out to you the most? Was it
the the vendor placements, or the evaluation criteria or the
scores themselves? What intrigued you about that report?
Speaker 7 (06:07):
I think what intrigued me was actually how the space
has evolved. So since I'm not associated with any research
firm right now, so I can actually give my commentary
about a Magic Quadrant my Gartner, and it was a
very well written report and I through this platform. I
would again like to congratulate the analyst who wrote that report,
and it's a very great analysis about the market.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
What intrigued med Tiam.
Speaker 7 (06:30):
Was how, as I said, how the market has evolved
beyond devices and everything. So interestingly, it's not just about
AI because every DEX vendor talks about Hey, they're bringing
it in one way or another.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
When I did my twenty twenty five predictions for.
Speaker 7 (06:45):
Digital Workplace, I wrote that this will be the year
of DEX plus plus, So it's not just about DEX.
How what can you do in addition to DEX, Like
you have a DEX solution find but how can you
integrate that to bring the more business value R business outcomes,
integrating with other enterprise basins, those functions, b HR beat
other horizontal business areas, and how can you integrate the
insights from these solutions to bring the real business outcome.
(07:08):
Unified communication again is a very important aspect. It's not
about not just about monetory, but also bringing in the
experienced flavor out of it.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
And of course digital adoption platform.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
I think that is a great space that we want
to look at that it's not just about technology but
how well it is adopted. So it was very intriguing
and very interesting for me that Dardner looked at all
these areas and that's why I really like the report.
I gave a quick review. I completely agree with the
vendor analysis, and this market is evolving and we will
see I foresee some more mergencs and acquisitions in this space.
(07:42):
As I wrote in my article, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I agree with that. Consolidation is always a part of
the technology industry. It will be interesting to see where
that goes. You've been highlighting and one of the important
things about next think or the intriguing things for me
about next thinc is with our scope and scale, well,
we can continue to innovate and broaden that definition of
what DEXs is and what can you do beyond just
(08:06):
the analytics, and we've been doing that for decades now.
What we've recently done is added that the ability to
do digital adoption right the platform. You've been consistently highlighting
the importance of bridging the disciplines of decks and DAPs.
Why is that important to you? What do you what
does it actually look like for an enterprise trying to
(08:27):
make that connection.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
So I think in my work with enterprise clients and
technology vendors, we have to understand that after at the
end of the day, we are dealing with humans. It's
not just about technology. So whatever you implement, it has
to get used, it has to get adopted. Digital workplace
is an area where every technology that has come in
the consumer world eventually found its place in the workplace.
(08:50):
I started with end user computing, mobile device management and
use unified endpoint management virtual desktops. So as mobile devices
became a part of a common common person's daily life,
it didn't until that happened, enterprises didn't have to worry
about m d M or UEM. So you have to
make sure that your technologies are actually adopted accepted by
(09:10):
the enterprise to actually bring in that change. As I
see today working with the clients, many AI projects, so
many transformation projects fail just because they don't plan the.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Adoption part properly.
Speaker 7 (09:21):
That's why providing a technology and how well the users
are using it, these are two different things, and that
can actually screw up the entire project if it is
not adopted well. That's why digital adoption becomes a very
integral part, particularly with workplace because at the end of
the day, you're dealing with employee experience, and employees are humans,
so and humans do take their own time to adopt
(09:42):
those solutions. So I think that is an increasing increasingly
important aspect to look at when you consider employe experience
through technology.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Really well said, and I was gonna say, I love
tearing to the magic quadrant as well, and shats hats
friends a gardener for another phenomenal report. We keep meaning
to cover it in a bit more detail, So it's
nice to nice to kind of explore that a bit
with you. Murner but let's talk about AI. Well, I
should just add listeners can find the report in the
(10:14):
show notes. They can download verion copy free of charge
right now, So go and do that, won't you while
you listen? But as AI becomes more embedded in DEX platforms,
how do you see it transforming the way that it
delivers support and value to businesses?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (10:32):
So when I worked with the clients, mostly the focus
was initially on automation. Right I'm doing patch management, I'm
doing device management. How can I automate those things? So,
of course AI has a lot of scope to automate
most of these parts. But the scope of AI is
much beyond that, you know, I foresee more focus on contextualization.
It's not just about how well how well the device
(10:56):
is being used and the telemetry that is coming in,
but using on the user, their profile, the work that
they do, how it relates to other things that they do,
and collecting information from multiple sources, making that judgment based
on the user persona user profile, their work areas. I
think that's where a lot of focus can be given
(11:16):
using AI. There are areas like knowledge management, sentiment analysis,
and a lot of things that we can do with
artificial intelligence. Right now, the focus is only on automating
what already is is is done through workflow charts or something.
But if you use a properly we can if we
can implement that in additional areas like understanding the users
(11:38):
sentiments and employee experience and expanding on that. For example,
even if if I'm using Microsoft Teams, for example, and
I want to raise the request on my I would
just want to type in that what is my facation balance.
I don't want to tell which HR system I'm using.
I don't want I want, I don't want to bother
on all of all of those things. But the AI
(11:58):
can be contextual. They know who am I, what is
my leave balance? They can use go to the HR system.
They can also know if what are the projects that
I'm working on? If I want to take leave on
a particular day, the system can actually go back and
say that there is a scheduled project delivery at that time,
so maybe.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
It's not advisable to take a leave.
Speaker 7 (12:18):
So you understand the focus of being a true digital
assistant is what the AI can build in. Unfortunately, many
organizations that I'm still at the first stage of automating
patch management kind of work with AI, but it has
a lot of scope with it support and enhancing employee experience.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And this may just be asking you to expand a
little bit on that thought, but you know, AI, like
you said, it's kind of table stakes. Now. It's been
around for literally for decades. The next thing's roots go
back to an AI institute and a postgraduate study and
we've been doing it for literally more than twenty years.
But automation has been around even longer. Where do you
(13:00):
think AI is starting to add the most value in
the deak space? Is it decision making? Is it accessibility?
Is it actually creating intelligent automation versus just scripted? Is
it building trust with then users? What do you think
the AI really has the most value in the desk space?
Speaker 7 (13:19):
I think all the areas that you mentioned, but I
think the more value is coming from orchestration. Every tool
has an AI agent right now, and the challenge that
clients are facing is how can I make value out
of the insights coming from these disparate tools. To have
an orchestration layer to collect all that information from these
desparate tools making a sense out of it, and with
(13:41):
agent AI, I think that's a great advancement in technologies
and how you can free up most of the resources
to take out the mundane task. I still work with
the organizations that have humans dealing with patch management kind
of work or group user policies and looking at all
those dashboards and how to make sense of it. All
of these can be automated, so I think consolidating all
(14:03):
of these things improve decision making for IT admins and
of course enhance the employee experience of IT. So it
has a lot of scope. Depends on the organization's appetite
for improving in terms of adoption and change management. There's
a lot of scope that I can provide for enhancing
the employe experience.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And one of the biggest problems that I've seen, and
folks that are regular listeners who are following me online,
you know that I've traveled thirteen out of the last
twenty six weeks, so basically fifty percent of my job
has been living out of a suitcase. But I'm talking
to executives all over the world, and the one common
theme that I can say without question from everybody is
(14:43):
the concern about adoption and especially adoption of AI itself.
And I think it's interesting to use AI to help
with that adoption problem. And you recently explored AI's evolving
role in digital adoption platforms. The most exciting use case
you're seeing emerged beyond just the standard walkthroughs and tooltips.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
Imagine a digital adoption solution or platform that can that
knows that you are stuck before you get stuck, so
it can maybe thinking on those lines like you imagine
adapt that knows where that you're going to get stuck
when that understands your role, your task, your deadlines, and
maybe perhaps even your sentiment. So I think that is
a great area that now that that digital adoption platforms
(15:30):
can focus on. And this will be coming very soon
because we we are in a we live in an era.
Tim and Tom that AI as my right. You said
that AI is the like the future interface. You may
not be working with so many applications. You may be
just interacting with one AI interface and what goes in
the background, what gets encapsulated for the user doesn't matter
(15:53):
because if you want something, they may be the system
may be interacting with multiple files and multiple exit spreadsheets,
a PowerPoint to collect to get you the data. But
to understand that how users are feeling where they're going
to get stuck and making sure that the users know
how to use these new technologies. It's all about it's
not just about prompt engineering, but also making sure that
(16:15):
that the AI features that get used by every interpret
and every tool right now, the user has that uh
that's steep as the quick learning path to get to
know to work with these tools better, like the making
sure that the adapt to understands that the going uh
(16:35):
that you're going to get stuck at a particular step
it needs to it is to preempt that and inform
the user and make sure that they are aware of
all the possible steps of actions that they can take.
So I think more proactive approach within AI is very
useful for the digital adoption solution. I think that's where
most of these vendors will be focusing on because earlier
(16:57):
I remember DAP was more about there's a tool, there
are features it can on the screen. It will guide
you that how if you click on this feature, what's
going to happen. But with interface becoming more AI focused,
it will be just one interface you don't have to
click too much. So making sure that what you're doing
and how well you do it, the system should be
able to guide you on that. And that's an interesting
space to look out for. I know it's not there
(17:19):
right now, but that's the future that we can all
get prepared for.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
Absolutely. And another area where I think what you write
about and your perspective really complements some topics and themes
that we've been looking into on the show this year.
It is that cross functional collaboration piece between HR and IT.
I mean, why do you think that dex beyond IT
conversation has become so important right now?
Speaker 7 (17:45):
As I say, because when I was part of end
user Computing's research organization, we learned that clients when when
they're not focusing only on the end user computing space.
I think digital workplace is an area that cuts across
with IT infrastructure and front facing employee and customer experience.
So both the back end IT and the front end
(18:06):
applications get they connect at the end user computing space.
So if you want to bring in a real business
transformation through digital workplace, it has to connect with other
business functions. So it's not just about otherwise. It's like
somebody the I T team is doing a great job.
They may get recognized or they may not, but you
will not be able to give a real visible business
(18:27):
out benefit. And for example, we are working at here
at Pomora, we are working on a unified intelligence desk.
We're using only one interface you can get your issues
is all for HR, for marketing, for legal, for sales.
You reach out to the users where they are, if
they're working on teams or slack, use the same interface.
(18:47):
You reduce the context switching, but you make sure that
employees can get all of these things done without actually
interacting with different business functure and you don't have to
open say a DP or people's for different things or
for for any any payroll. You get everything done in
one on one place. That's what employ experience is. That's
that's what the technology backbone is. User cares about their experience.
(19:11):
They don't want to go through different application. I think
that's the area where we combine it with multiple function
and that's when when you talk to a vendor or
that's what that's the language even the clients understand, because
today when I talk to an enterprise client leader, a
business leader even then, don't don't start at page number
one or two of a user manual even they know
(19:31):
till page number ten. So every business leader knows technology
and every technology leader knows business. So it's important that
you target your solutions in such a way that you
cater to the requirement of both the audience.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
One hundred percent And indeed is sort of connecting the
last two sort of subtopics. Your recent research at Homeroid
touches on empathy in AI. How can AI systems in
your you be designed to imp prove trust and emotional
experiences for employees, not just the productivity gains that we
(20:07):
here spoken about more often.
Speaker 7 (20:10):
Yes, so when when we talk about empathy, I think
we should look at AI that responds with empathy. They
can adopt the tone, It learns your preferences that what
you like, what you dislike, and it can avoid especially
the cold scripts that system generates. And uh, I think
emotional intelligence is an area which can be next frontier
for artificial intelligence with respect to empathy.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
UH.
Speaker 7 (20:32):
An example that I just gave that if you provide
users solutions of where they are, like you meet the
users where they are instead of having them to use
a new tool. I think that's uh, that's a very
good example of how you being empathetic to the employees
that you understand that they don't have to scrawl to
multiple application to get their work done. So I think
with artificial intelligence you have all the potential to understand
(20:54):
the user tone make sure that you you right the way. Again,
the contextual AI piece becomes very important that you should
should know who the user is, what they're working on,
how big the deadline is, so it's not just about
the user and the persona your system should get connect
to your work management portal Beast Monday or Asana. You
know what they're working on with other deadlines. You should
(21:15):
know the emails. Being a Microsoft shop, you can get
insights from Outlook teams and all those things and get
what they're working on, who they're interacting with, what is
their schedule, And that's how you adapt to that user
behavior and their preferences.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
I think that's where the empathy will bring in.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
I think the a lot of work being done by
multiple solution vendors out there and clients would really appreciate
that great well.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
And no, no, I want to just ran things off
with a couple of questions for you touch upon that
kind of the two sides of your creativity. And one
who inspires you both as an analyst and as an artist.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
First of all, okay, that's a good question.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
So when I started as an analyst role, I didn't
start as an industry analyst wing for so I was
working with xcel Pize understanding these concepts and comparing these vendors.
But I was reading articles by Brand Maiden and he's
the Although I have him connected through LinkedIn, I never
met him, but I do love what he writes. He
make the technology concepts so easy to understand because I
(22:23):
understood and user computing VDI M d M through his
articles when he used to write for tech Target now
is part of Citrics, but I still follow him. He's
the best on the stage and how he talks. They
are a multiple analyst in Gartner, Forrester, Everest who track
and use a computing space. I follow all of them.
And Brand Madden is not really an analyst, but he's
thought leader and that's why he inspires me as being
(22:44):
an analyst being an artist. There are multiple folks out there.
I can't name one because I didn't learn it. I
just I was just doing it since I don't even remember.
But yeah, there are Jim Lee, I like his work
for at a lot of the comic books that he did,
he does and there are just many, so yeah, multiple folks, winspy.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
This is the last two sided questions, so to speak,
which is where can people find your graphic novels?
Speaker 7 (23:09):
So the title name, if I the name is like
the latest one was released in September. Its name is BRIGU.
It's available on Amazon. It's b h R I g U.
You can find on Amazon, good Reads, Bands and Nobles
and all the major detail stores. There are a couple
of other graphic novels out there if you just click
on my name you will get them on Amazon.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
So a couple of books out there, but that's the
latest one, so you can search from.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
Them superb superber and and links in the show notes
to those to that.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Work as well as one of those amazing analysis.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
And h and also as mentioned already, we got a
magic Quaterant history download now if you haven't already. It's
a fantastic real congratulations to our friends with Gartner. It
really is a phenomenal installment of what is now BMQX series.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And on someday we'll figure out how to get Dan
Wilson onto the show right.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
It's impossible. It's impossible, and we love you.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
We'd love to shout out to you anyway. Absolutely, I'm
not absolute pleasure to have you on man join us
to get away?
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Sure? Sure, thanks, Friends day, thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
To make sure that you never miss an episode, Subscribe
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you'd like to learn more about how next Thing can
help you improve your digital employee experience, head over to
nextthink dot com. Thank you so much for listening. Until
(24:43):
next time,
Welcome it, change Makers to the deck Show with Tim
Flower and Tom McGrath. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hallo, change makers, Welcome back to the deck Show. I'm
Tom McGrath. I'm joined as ever by my main man,
Tim Flower. How are you doing, Tim.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Tom good? I hear you've been like me, traveling around
a little bit so curious to catch up on that.
We can we can, We can do that some other
time though, I hope it was a good triple halo.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I've been in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
They wanted to pick my brains about if you okay,
you know they they flew me over, They asked me
some questions and some changes come in, some changes coming
at the West coast as a consequence. But more on
that a nonal listeners and of course being slightly sarcastic,
but speaking of the future, which it is a bit
like visiting the future when you got out west, Tim
(00:50):
from Okay.
Speaker 6 (00:53):
We are joined today by absolutely one of our one
of our favorite analysts and if you will, futurists, Manal
or Tim and I have both been enjoying his work,
both is his analysis and his visual work, which is
I think rather a striking difference and he brings a really,
you know, really sharp perspective on how organizations can can
(01:14):
drive value through smarter digital transformation.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We're delighted to finally have members show man. Now, how
are you doing?
Speaker 7 (01:20):
Thanks Tom, Hi Tim, Great to be here. I'm doing
good and it's great to be part of the DEX Show.
I've been listening to some of the episodes and they're
really interesting and really encouraging for the enterprise clients as
well as the folks I work with. I think they're
all fan of the DEX Show.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
So great to love it.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Love it.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
Mutual appreciation now, because you're absolutely one of our favorite analysts,
I would say one of the most creative analysts out
bet for it. First of all, for anyone not familiar
with your work, maybe give us a potted bio quick overview.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Sure. Thanks. My name is brunal right.
Speaker 7 (01:52):
I am based in India and I have been a
thought leader and industry analyst for a long time. So
I was part of Information Services Group for the last
twelve years. I was tracking digital workplace services and user
computing and I like talking exploring these technologies. We tend
user computing, digital workplace, unified communication, collaboration, enterpress collaboration, and
(02:15):
I recently joined an organization called Pomeroy where I work
as an executive Client advisor, where I work with the
clients understand their key pain points with respect to workplace
and it estate and help them overcome these challenges and
help OMRA develop solutions to address these client issues.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Fab And as anyone who knows just work knows, you bring.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
A little artistic flair to your to your to your
industry analysis to almost everything you do right, and you're
an award winning artist as well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
We read so I attle.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Bit about that side of your of your work and your.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Life, and yeah, yeah, so so.
Speaker 7 (02:50):
I'm also a graphic novelist and a comic book writer,
and I've also written few novels and some comic books.
I was chosen as the best artist or best card
unist in India by Fandom Awards for Indian Comics. And
I do write. I do create those comic books based
on Indian history and scriptures and also about some favorite
(03:12):
genres like horror, crime, the mystery. And I'm actually writing
a book right now which actually relates the Ai revolution
that we are seeing and how can we foresee a
futuristic vision where robots are actually taken over. They've messed
up everything and now the world is coping up. So
that's something it works so morale.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It's always great to connect with with like minded folks
IT pros who share the passion for a specific discipline.
How did you come to specialize in this or how
did you kind of uncover that passion for digital employee
experience specifically?
Speaker 7 (03:49):
Sure, Tim, So, So I've been covering this space for
digital workplace for last twelve years or more. I think
I'm still part of a thought leadership team here. I'm
part of many editor editorial teams for many websites which
write about write articles about workplace, unified communication and collaboration.
So when I started my research on this, I was
actually uh comparing these service providers, global system integrators and
(04:13):
managed service providers who provide these services.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
And that's when I came.
Speaker 7 (04:18):
To know that initially there was a lot of focus
on automation analytics coming from these telemetary tools.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
And that's how I got introduced to the DEX tools.
Speaker 7 (04:26):
And when I two two three years ago, when I
actually started looking at this market, I actually worked on
my own when a comparison of the deck space, and
I actually forced foresee that at that time that the
DEX solutions have a larger scope. It's not just about
telemetry and it's not just about devices. And when I
used to foresee the digital workplace of the future or
(04:48):
the workplace technology ecosystem, I could foresee as a personal
digital assistant or secretary. I'm talking five six years ago,
and I think the foundational step for that future was
to have the analogy that comes from DEX tools.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
So that's how I got.
Speaker 7 (05:02):
Interested in these tools, and that's how I started tracking
maybe next thing many of the competitors in this space,
and that's how I'm always intrigued by how this space
has evolved. It's not just about devices and telemetry anymore.
It covers many more aspects. It covers more than devices
now and it's becoming a strategic area for those enterprise
(05:27):
clients and service providers who want to bring the transformation
in the technology ecosystem. So that's how it started.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
That's cool. You know you've got like Tom said, we
follow your work. You've got a cool post up on LinkedIn.
About a month ago, the cartoon track and Field event
with all the decks, the decks runners lined up at
the starting line obviously, next thing there prominently. You know,
we've spent a long time or a lot of time
looking at this year's Magic Quadrant from Gartner here, next thing.
(05:57):
But what stood out to you the most? Was it
the the vendor placements, or the evaluation criteria or the
scores themselves? What intrigued you about that report?
Speaker 7 (06:07):
I think what intrigued me was actually how the space
has evolved. So since I'm not associated with any research
firm right now, so I can actually give my commentary
about a Magic Quadrant my Gartner, and it was a
very well written report and I through this platform. I
would again like to congratulate the analyst who wrote that report,
and it's a very great analysis about the market.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
What intrigued med Tiam.
Speaker 7 (06:30):
Was how, as I said, how the market has evolved
beyond devices and everything. So interestingly, it's not just about
AI because every DEX vendor talks about Hey, they're bringing
it in one way or another.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
When I did my twenty twenty five predictions for.
Speaker 7 (06:45):
Digital Workplace, I wrote that this will be the year
of DEX plus plus, So it's not just about DEX.
How what can you do in addition to DEX, Like
you have a DEX solution find but how can you
integrate that to bring the more business value R business outcomes,
integrating with other enterprise basins, those functions, b HR beat
other horizontal business areas, and how can you integrate the
insights from these solutions to bring the real business outcome.
(07:08):
Unified communication again is a very important aspect. It's not
about not just about monetory, but also bringing in the
experienced flavor out of it.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
And of course digital adoption platform.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
I think that is a great space that we want
to look at that it's not just about technology but
how well it is adopted. So it was very intriguing
and very interesting for me that Dardner looked at all
these areas and that's why I really like the report.
I gave a quick review. I completely agree with the
vendor analysis, and this market is evolving and we will
see I foresee some more mergencs and acquisitions in this space.
(07:42):
As I wrote in my article, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I agree with that. Consolidation is always a part of
the technology industry. It will be interesting to see where
that goes. You've been highlighting and one of the important
things about next think or the intriguing things for me
about next thinc is with our scope and scale, well,
we can continue to innovate and broaden that definition of
what DEXs is and what can you do beyond just
(08:06):
the analytics, and we've been doing that for decades now.
What we've recently done is added that the ability to
do digital adoption right the platform. You've been consistently highlighting
the importance of bridging the disciplines of decks and DAPs.
Why is that important to you? What do you what
does it actually look like for an enterprise trying to
(08:27):
make that connection.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
So I think in my work with enterprise clients and
technology vendors, we have to understand that after at the
end of the day, we are dealing with humans. It's
not just about technology. So whatever you implement, it has
to get used, it has to get adopted. Digital workplace
is an area where every technology that has come in
the consumer world eventually found its place in the workplace.
(08:50):
I started with end user computing, mobile device management and
use unified endpoint management virtual desktops. So as mobile devices
became a part of a common common person's daily life,
it didn't until that happened, enterprises didn't have to worry
about m d M or UEM. So you have to
make sure that your technologies are actually adopted accepted by
(09:10):
the enterprise to actually bring in that change. As I
see today working with the clients, many AI projects, so
many transformation projects fail just because they don't plan the.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Adoption part properly.
Speaker 7 (09:21):
That's why providing a technology and how well the users
are using it, these are two different things, and that
can actually screw up the entire project if it is
not adopted well. That's why digital adoption becomes a very
integral part, particularly with workplace because at the end of
the day, you're dealing with employee experience, and employees are humans,
so and humans do take their own time to adopt
(09:42):
those solutions. So I think that is an increasing increasingly
important aspect to look at when you consider employe experience
through technology.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Really well said, and I was gonna say, I love
tearing to the magic quadrant as well, and shats hats
friends a gardener for another phenomenal report. We keep meaning
to cover it in a bit more detail, So it's
nice to nice to kind of explore that a bit
with you. Murner but let's talk about AI. Well, I
should just add listeners can find the report in the
(10:14):
show notes. They can download verion copy free of charge
right now, So go and do that, won't you while
you listen? But as AI becomes more embedded in DEX platforms,
how do you see it transforming the way that it
delivers support and value to businesses?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (10:32):
So when I worked with the clients, mostly the focus
was initially on automation. Right I'm doing patch management, I'm
doing device management. How can I automate those things? So,
of course AI has a lot of scope to automate
most of these parts. But the scope of AI is
much beyond that, you know, I foresee more focus on contextualization.
It's not just about how well how well the device
(10:56):
is being used and the telemetry that is coming in,
but using on the user, their profile, the work that
they do, how it relates to other things that they do,
and collecting information from multiple sources, making that judgment based
on the user persona user profile, their work areas. I
think that's where a lot of focus can be given
(11:16):
using AI. There are areas like knowledge management, sentiment analysis,
and a lot of things that we can do with
artificial intelligence. Right now, the focus is only on automating
what already is is is done through workflow charts or something.
But if you use a properly we can if we
can implement that in additional areas like understanding the users
(11:38):
sentiments and employee experience and expanding on that. For example,
even if if I'm using Microsoft Teams, for example, and
I want to raise the request on my I would
just want to type in that what is my facation balance.
I don't want to tell which HR system I'm using.
I don't want I want, I don't want to bother
on all of all of those things. But the AI
(11:58):
can be contextual. They know who am I, what is
my leave balance? They can use go to the HR system.
They can also know if what are the projects that
I'm working on? If I want to take leave on
a particular day, the system can actually go back and
say that there is a scheduled project delivery at that time,
so maybe.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
It's not advisable to take a leave.
Speaker 7 (12:18):
So you understand the focus of being a true digital
assistant is what the AI can build in. Unfortunately, many
organizations that I'm still at the first stage of automating
patch management kind of work with AI, but it has
a lot of scope with it support and enhancing employee experience.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And this may just be asking you to expand a
little bit on that thought, but you know, AI, like
you said, it's kind of table stakes. Now. It's been
around for literally for decades. The next thing's roots go
back to an AI institute and a postgraduate study and
we've been doing it for literally more than twenty years.
But automation has been around even longer. Where do you
(13:00):
think AI is starting to add the most value in
the deak space? Is it decision making? Is it accessibility?
Is it actually creating intelligent automation versus just scripted? Is
it building trust with then users? What do you think
the AI really has the most value in the desk space?
Speaker 7 (13:19):
I think all the areas that you mentioned, but I
think the more value is coming from orchestration. Every tool
has an AI agent right now, and the challenge that
clients are facing is how can I make value out
of the insights coming from these disparate tools. To have
an orchestration layer to collect all that information from these
desparate tools making a sense out of it, and with
(13:41):
agent AI, I think that's a great advancement in technologies
and how you can free up most of the resources
to take out the mundane task. I still work with
the organizations that have humans dealing with patch management kind
of work or group user policies and looking at all
those dashboards and how to make sense of it. All
of these can be automated, so I think consolidating all
(14:03):
of these things improve decision making for IT admins and
of course enhance the employee experience of IT. So it
has a lot of scope. Depends on the organization's appetite
for improving in terms of adoption and change management. There's
a lot of scope that I can provide for enhancing
the employe experience.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And one of the biggest problems that I've seen, and
folks that are regular listeners who are following me online,
you know that I've traveled thirteen out of the last
twenty six weeks, so basically fifty percent of my job
has been living out of a suitcase. But I'm talking
to executives all over the world, and the one common
theme that I can say without question from everybody is
(14:43):
the concern about adoption and especially adoption of AI itself.
And I think it's interesting to use AI to help
with that adoption problem. And you recently explored AI's evolving
role in digital adoption platforms. The most exciting use case
you're seeing emerged beyond just the standard walkthroughs and tooltips.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
Imagine a digital adoption solution or platform that can that
knows that you are stuck before you get stuck, so
it can maybe thinking on those lines like you imagine
adapt that knows where that you're going to get stuck
when that understands your role, your task, your deadlines, and
maybe perhaps even your sentiment. So I think that is
a great area that now that that digital adoption platforms
(15:30):
can focus on. And this will be coming very soon
because we we are in a we live in an era.
Tim and Tom that AI as my right. You said
that AI is the like the future interface. You may
not be working with so many applications. You may be
just interacting with one AI interface and what goes in
the background, what gets encapsulated for the user doesn't matter
(15:53):
because if you want something, they may be the system
may be interacting with multiple files and multiple exit spreadsheets,
a PowerPoint to collect to get you the data. But
to understand that how users are feeling where they're going
to get stuck and making sure that the users know
how to use these new technologies. It's all about it's
not just about prompt engineering, but also making sure that
(16:15):
that the AI features that get used by every interpret
and every tool right now, the user has that uh
that's steep as the quick learning path to get to
know to work with these tools better, like the making
sure that the adapt to understands that the going uh
(16:35):
that you're going to get stuck at a particular step
it needs to it is to preempt that and inform
the user and make sure that they are aware of
all the possible steps of actions that they can take.
So I think more proactive approach within AI is very
useful for the digital adoption solution. I think that's where
most of these vendors will be focusing on because earlier
(16:57):
I remember DAP was more about there's a tool, there
are features it can on the screen. It will guide
you that how if you click on this feature, what's
going to happen. But with interface becoming more AI focused,
it will be just one interface you don't have to
click too much. So making sure that what you're doing
and how well you do it, the system should be
able to guide you on that. And that's an interesting
space to look out for. I know it's not there
(17:19):
right now, but that's the future that we can all
get prepared for.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
Absolutely. And another area where I think what you write
about and your perspective really complements some topics and themes
that we've been looking into on the show this year.
It is that cross functional collaboration piece between HR and IT.
I mean, why do you think that dex beyond IT
conversation has become so important right now?
Speaker 7 (17:45):
As I say, because when I was part of end
user Computing's research organization, we learned that clients when when
they're not focusing only on the end user computing space.
I think digital workplace is an area that cuts across
with IT infrastructure and front facing employee and customer experience.
So both the back end IT and the front end
(18:06):
applications get they connect at the end user computing space.
So if you want to bring in a real business
transformation through digital workplace, it has to connect with other
business functions. So it's not just about otherwise. It's like
somebody the I T team is doing a great job.
They may get recognized or they may not, but you
will not be able to give a real visible business
(18:27):
out benefit. And for example, we are working at here
at Pomora, we are working on a unified intelligence desk.
We're using only one interface you can get your issues
is all for HR, for marketing, for legal, for sales.
You reach out to the users where they are, if
they're working on teams or slack, use the same interface.
(18:47):
You reduce the context switching, but you make sure that
employees can get all of these things done without actually
interacting with different business functure and you don't have to
open say a DP or people's for different things or
for for any any payroll. You get everything done in
one on one place. That's what employ experience is. That's
that's what the technology backbone is. User cares about their experience.
(19:11):
They don't want to go through different application. I think
that's the area where we combine it with multiple function
and that's when when you talk to a vendor or
that's what that's the language even the clients understand, because
today when I talk to an enterprise client leader, a
business leader even then, don't don't start at page number
one or two of a user manual even they know
(19:31):
till page number ten. So every business leader knows technology
and every technology leader knows business. So it's important that
you target your solutions in such a way that you
cater to the requirement of both the audience.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
One hundred percent And indeed is sort of connecting the
last two sort of subtopics. Your recent research at Homeroid
touches on empathy in AI. How can AI systems in
your you be designed to imp prove trust and emotional
experiences for employees, not just the productivity gains that we
(20:07):
here spoken about more often.
Speaker 7 (20:10):
Yes, so when when we talk about empathy, I think
we should look at AI that responds with empathy. They
can adopt the tone, It learns your preferences that what
you like, what you dislike, and it can avoid especially
the cold scripts that system generates. And uh, I think
emotional intelligence is an area which can be next frontier
for artificial intelligence with respect to empathy.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
UH.
Speaker 7 (20:32):
An example that I just gave that if you provide
users solutions of where they are, like you meet the
users where they are instead of having them to use
a new tool. I think that's uh, that's a very
good example of how you being empathetic to the employees
that you understand that they don't have to scrawl to
multiple application to get their work done. So I think
with artificial intelligence you have all the potential to understand
(20:54):
the user tone make sure that you you right the way. Again,
the contextual AI piece becomes very important that you should
should know who the user is, what they're working on,
how big the deadline is, so it's not just about
the user and the persona your system should get connect
to your work management portal Beast Monday or Asana. You
know what they're working on with other deadlines. You should
(21:15):
know the emails. Being a Microsoft shop, you can get
insights from Outlook teams and all those things and get
what they're working on, who they're interacting with, what is
their schedule, And that's how you adapt to that user
behavior and their preferences.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
I think that's where the empathy will bring in.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
I think the a lot of work being done by
multiple solution vendors out there and clients would really appreciate
that great well.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
And no, no, I want to just ran things off
with a couple of questions for you touch upon that
kind of the two sides of your creativity. And one
who inspires you both as an analyst and as an artist.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
First of all, okay, that's a good question.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
So when I started as an analyst role, I didn't
start as an industry analyst wing for so I was
working with xcel Pize understanding these concepts and comparing these vendors.
But I was reading articles by Brand Maiden and he's
the Although I have him connected through LinkedIn, I never
met him, but I do love what he writes. He
make the technology concepts so easy to understand because I
(22:23):
understood and user computing VDI M d M through his
articles when he used to write for tech Target now
is part of Citrics, but I still follow him. He's
the best on the stage and how he talks. They
are a multiple analyst in Gartner, Forrester, Everest who track
and use a computing space. I follow all of them.
And Brand Madden is not really an analyst, but he's
thought leader and that's why he inspires me as being
(22:44):
an analyst being an artist. There are multiple folks out there.
I can't name one because I didn't learn it. I
just I was just doing it since I don't even remember.
But yeah, there are Jim Lee, I like his work
for at a lot of the comic books that he did,
he does and there are just many, so yeah, multiple folks, winspy.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
This is the last two sided questions, so to speak,
which is where can people find your graphic novels?
Speaker 7 (23:09):
So the title name, if I the name is like
the latest one was released in September. Its name is BRIGU.
It's available on Amazon. It's b h R I g U.
You can find on Amazon, good Reads, Bands and Nobles
and all the major detail stores. There are a couple
of other graphic novels out there if you just click
on my name you will get them on Amazon.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
So a couple of books out there, but that's the
latest one, so you can search from.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
Them superb superber and and links in the show notes
to those to that.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Work as well as one of those amazing analysis.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
And h and also as mentioned already, we got a
magic Quaterant history download now if you haven't already. It's
a fantastic real congratulations to our friends with Gartner. It
really is a phenomenal installment of what is now BMQX series.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And on someday we'll figure out how to get Dan
Wilson onto the show right.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
It's impossible. It's impossible, and we love you.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
We'd love to shout out to you anyway. Absolutely, I'm
not absolute pleasure to have you on man join us
to get away?
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Sure? Sure, thanks, Friends day, thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
To make sure that you never miss an episode, Subscribe
to the show in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite
podcast player, And if you're listening on Apple podcasts, make
sure to leave a rating of the show. Just tap
the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. If
you'd like to learn more about how next Thing can
help you improve your digital employee experience, head over to
nextthink dot com. Thank you so much for listening. Until
(24:43):
next time,
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