May 1, 2024 • 35 mins
There’s no crying in softball…but there’s yelling! Juliana and her teammates and their Amy G's are having a tough time with their coaches. When you have a punitive coaching style and lack positive reinforcement, the girls are going to lose interest. In schools we teach that punishment stops behavior, but it does nothing for building the skills you want to see kids develop. Same goes with coaching.
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(00:01):
Welcome to What's Happening Here. Thisis a podcast for finding the perfect imbalance
of being a parent, a partner, and a person without losing the things
that matter most to you in theprocess. Like you're Sennity, you might
know me as doctor Sarah the BrainGal. I'm a pediatric neuros psychologist and
mom of two who translates brain scienceto everyday life. I see all kids,
really all people like little brains.You probably don't know me. I'm
(00:24):
Kevin, Sarah's partner in crime,Bourbon Afcinado, discusser of all things,
and father of two. We startedthis podcast because we saw a big gap
between research and practice, especially whenyou have a unique family structure like ours,
and we wanted to share what wehave learned and hopefully what we continue
about navigating our lives through the lensof brain science with a big old helping
of reality. Next day, weknow there are lots of families that look
(00:47):
like ours, we're kind of likeour, or maybe look nothing like ours,
which makes finding a single source ofguidance and advice so hard. But
we're going to try to help you. So join us as we try to
figure out what's happening here, Keef, I have to tell you, I
think you're rubbing off on me.I like the rubb one thing that was
a softball, no pun intended forwhat we'll probably talk about. But I
(01:11):
have had this feeling lately, andI don't know if it's you or if
I'm just getting older with more experiencespeaking from experiences, probably both, But
I have come to be very frustratedwith people, like with the way of
the world with it and I workin a lot of schools and I get
(01:32):
frustrated with that system. I'm luckyI have a lot of contracts where I'm
helping districts like systemically try to makethings better, but I've also run into
districts who thought they were going todo that and then have are too scared
of the change, like completely shutdown, can't get out of their own
way. And I feel like we'vecome into a situation where all of that
(01:53):
is like coming together all at onetime. And I have a lot of
amg about this, Like my amagsup about that in a in a very
unique way for me, because althoughwe talk about sports a lot, I
am not usually as passionate sports wiseas you, and like I would I
would argue that you've come around alittle bit on this, and I think
(02:15):
that by our conversations you have seenthat it's not just and how I view
it as not just you know whatthe kids are doing on the field or
on the rink. It's a there'sa bigger picture to yes, and I
think that that's where you have pickedup on seeing that through our discussions and
seeing your kids play, seeing ourkids play, and you know, we've
(02:38):
talked a lot about those situations.So I think you've started to realize that
there's more to it. Not realizeit, but you've come to see us
for a moment, understand it now. You're right about that. I and
also understand it in general, likejust get understand how the game works and
fielder's choice. Yeah, and feelfly. I was gonna say fly,
but I wasn't sure. I'm stillgetting to know it. I know our
(03:01):
size is now, so that's good. And handball that's my favorite one when
I'm like, I know what thatmeans. Whatever the thing is the hand
and they But that's not the point. The point is you're right. I
have come to appreciate and actually you'revery right. I've come to appreciate what
sports teaches kids, and I loveit for I'm always big on interventions that
(03:23):
aren't very intervention driven like they are. They're sneaky ones like the ones,
not that we wouldn't tell you whatthey are, but they come naturally right.
So I used to run a groupof a Lego group for kids with
autism. It was the social Skillsgroup, and the best part about that
was they all love Legos and itwas just based around splitting up the jobs
so the kids had to use eachother to get a project done. He
(03:46):
would be great, he yes,he would be great with that. He
would also be great with helping tomodel like socially things too, because he's
so got such a calm, greatway about him. They would have loved
him. But yeah, So youteach social skills through this interaction, that
thing that they love and the interactionsthat they need to have. So it's
not contrived. It's not like asocial skills story where we read about what
(04:08):
it's like this. It's like actuallyhappening, which is a therapist dream to
make something happen in the session thatyou can then help to guide through because
we don't often get that if it'sin a session like that. So I
love sports for the idea that,Wow, look at how many natural things
come up, that there's a coachto guide you through processing that and really
(04:29):
being able to make change while yourAMG is up while Frannie's around to kind
of figure all that out. Itcan be a microcosm of the world yes,
yes, and the things that yourun into as a person in that
world. And Ruby is a wonderfulexample because she's so good and she's so
dedicated, she so loves the game. Like watching you and her talk about
(04:49):
her building her skills has been wonderful, and like her figuring out how to
get out of her head at certaintimes and her how to how she's psychologically
working through the game and continuing tobuild their skills. And you know,
with sports, I don't think Iever realized there how much natural failure there
will be. Right you get upat bat, You're not going to hit
that ball every single time. Andso seeing that and building kids up to
(05:14):
be able to manage that, Ithink has been very important. And so
you're right, I have come toappreciate it for a number of reasons.
And although a softball game is stillvery long, for me. I still
like the idea of it, right, and especially when they get older,
and it's better not as long asbaseball games. That's why I well,
hockey's more my speeds, like kindof one hour long hour, Yeah,
(05:38):
that works out best. But againI'm like, look, you know,
I love efficiency. I'm like,in an hour, you get the same
amount of learning done, but youget at all game. But we have
come into like quite a pickle here, don't you think we have a certain
situation with Juliana and the team thatshe's on. Yeah, it's kind of
been brewing for a little it.I think we've each seen some I think
(06:02):
we've seen different parts of it,right, Yeah, Like I think I
was paying more attention to the redflags that were coming up from a softball
team management. Right you saw youknow, like in the game stuff or
even just different decisions on how touse kids or when they use kids and
when they did use right the coachingparty game. And then I think,
(06:26):
because maybe you had more insight throughyou know, conversations with Jules, you
started to see more of the redflags from the social aspect of it,
of the dynamics between the people involvedand motivation learning side like it just like
a school. You're going to havea learning component to coaching, right,
(06:47):
and motivation component of coaching. Yeah. And I think that you are a
very good judge of people, forsure. And early on I felt like,
okay, they're saying everything right.This coaching staff. You know,
they're interested in the girls being selfaware. They do journals so that they
think about where they were and wherethey want to be. These are all
(07:09):
things on paper that are absolutely theright thing. They look at their performance.
The coach made a very good pointto say, I look at basically
how the kids are doing. Idon't look at I look at data.
Remember he said I look at dataand not the kids. And that was
kind of like, Okay, that'san interesting thing for me because there's so
much of a psychology to softball tosports, right. But that was fine,
(07:30):
and early on it was great.I mean, the girls loved each
other, The team really liked eachother, and Juliana got a lot out
of it. And that was lastyear, and then moving into this year,
there were some very strange things thatstarted to happen. And I don't
know, if you know, youknow somebody for a while on colors just
show eventually or if this like ifthis had always been there, or if
(07:53):
this is something that's going on withthe coaches, because I find very much
that whenever things happen in your personallife, that's going to bleed, right,
and especially if there's lack of insightinto that, it's going to bleed
even more so. Lately, thegirls they've never really loved practice, but
they liked it a lot more lastyear. This year, the girls are
coming home saying like they don't wantto go to practice. They don't,
(08:13):
they're just gonna get yelled at.Juliana has had this huge fear that our
coach is gonna yell at her.Now. Julian is a very kind of
self driven girl. If you tellher to work on something, she tends
to work on it, like shemight slack on something. But when when
when you tell her and you're like, no, this is you have to
do this in order to play,you have to do this in order to
(08:33):
sleep over your friend's house. Youcan't fail Jim and think you're going to
have sleepovers Juliana and the whole term. You have to actually do better.
She will step up. I don'tI never, she doesn't strike me as
a person who doesn't take criticism.Yeah, she hears it, and she
takes it fine. Yeah, she'svery good at It's not somebody you have
(08:56):
to like yell and scream at forthem to understand to get your point right.
The only time I've ever had todo that is when she's so emotional
that she can't break through that wallfor some reason. There's other factors in
them, but generally speaking, you'reright. She is. She will hear
you, and it's one of thethings I love most about her. She
will hear you and will move forwardto making change. You know, we
(09:18):
have gone to therapy. Yes,yes, we have gone to therapy,
her and I and she wants tobe there. She wants to make it
better, even if we're having areally tough time, which is what works
right, so's yes, she's that'sher perspective on it. And yes,
sometimes she's thirteen, she does herthing, but really deep she's never really
a problem, and so her notwanting to go to a practice of something
(09:41):
she really loves is a flag.Her fearing getting yelled at to that extent,
to the extent of don't hand methis water, mom, I'll get
yelled at don't get me, youknow, don't talk to me, don't
look at me, don't don't talkto me. Between games. I'm not
allowed to come out of the dugoutright, don't stand too close to our
team huddle because the coaches don't wantyou to hear what they're saying to us.
(10:05):
Right, don't you know pick meup if you have to. I'll
get screened at, you know,like everything is, and I'll get yelled.
I can't. And I know we'vebeen here for four hours and the
game is started at half an hourlate, and I know you have to
be somewhere, and I know you'veyou know, changed your schedule to accommodate
this game going long, and youhave to get me a ride somewhere,
(10:28):
But you're not allowed to talk tome about that or eat like they won't
they can't eat at certain times inbetween game. Don't hand me something to
eat in between with that four hours. I'm like, you need to eat
something, you have to. We'renot talking about during a game. And
also this stuff that happened between games'grade not while they're practicing or warming up.
This is while they're standing around,right, And you know there's a
(10:50):
lot of these teams have these rulesthat you can't be a certain amount of
feed from the dugout because parents willyell and scream or something like that.
Some people go to the outfield tosure that they their voice is not necessarily
heard. Right, We've all accommodatedfor things like that. Of course,
yes we're not talking about that.You know, I might cheer for her,
but I might come join you inthe outfields so you have company.
(11:13):
But you know, other than that, that's really and I'm for those rules.
They have the twenty four hour rule. If you have mad at a
coach, you wait twenty four hours. I'm a big proponent of that.
I think that's the excellent rule.So they have all the rules on paper.
Again, they have all these thingson paper. But then it's things
like somebody didn't do their journal,so they have to run extra and not
(11:33):
just a little bit, but suicidesand okay, that is an old coaching
style, or maybe even a consistentcoaching style a little bit. But I'm
not as concerned. I don't knowhow you feel about it. I think
the essentially what the problem is isthat there is a punitive nature to their
(11:54):
coaching. Yes, it is not. There's no positive reinforcement. Everything is
a punishment if you don't every andthat's their focus. It's not on you
know, how can we make youbetter? It's don't you better not do
that? You better not make thatmistake? And everything and really every and
the girls, from what I've heard, they feel like anything they do is
(12:18):
a mistake unless it's unless it's perfectright. And these are I don't know
if you've seen fourteen U softball,but it is far from perfect well,
and everything everything about it is farfrom perfect well. And even if it
is perfect right, it's a backwardscomp I had to literally explain to Juliana
what a backwards compliment is, youknow, like, oh, you suddenly
said that was great, finally rightright, It's like it cuts it right.
(12:43):
There is a punitive nature to theirapproach and how they how they coach,
how they speak to the children,how to the girls, how you
know, the it's a punitive reinforcementas opposed to positive reinforcement. They don't
enjoy practice, they don't want tobe there. They're not focused on connecting
the girls, and so the girlssurprisingly are very connected. That's the only
(13:05):
reason Julianne is still there, anda lot of the other girls are there
because they like each other. Butyou're right, everything is punitive and so
they're always not only are they afraidthey're going to get in trouble, but
they're pretty much going to get introuble. And I think also there have
been we have understood that there havebeen instances in which the girls have some
of the girls have pushed back andbeen honest, like saying, we're afraid
(13:26):
to make mistakes. Yes, Andthere was a conversation where, you know,
the coach is basically denied that beingtrue. Right, you know,
there was also a case where thecoach told Julianna what she was thinking.
Here's here's a gentleman who's probably inhis fifties who's telling a fourteen year old
that he knows what she's thinking.Well, what happened was and that's essentially
(13:48):
that was the first. That wasthe first like one of the early red
flags. But that right there issums up everything that is wrong. Well,
he said to her, you know, something about to correct a swing
or something, and she said andhe said, so what are you going
to do? And she said,I'll work on it outside of practice,
and he said, I know whatyou're thinking. You're just thinking you're gonna
tell me that and then you're notgoing to do it. And she's like,
(14:11):
no, I'll actually work on it, and Julianna will, and this
is he should know her, shewill work on it. He's not interested
in that, and he's not interestedin getting to know them because he thinks
he already knows who they are.Yeah, he knows, and they all
as he's done this for so long. Well, and then you have,
you know, two softball girls whoplayed softball in college and are now out
(14:31):
of college, who are helping toassist with coaching, and they've had these
they they've told these girls what terribleexperiences they've had in high school and how
they need college and college are right, and how they need to ride these
out, and how their coaches,you know, were ten times worse to
them and they hated playing. Andso they're team them up. And most
(14:52):
of these girls aren't going to stopplaying, or they're going to play in
high school but not really push themselves. And so that's where kind of everybody's
heading. And it's been very sadto watch because we know from learning theories
and from psychology that you know,we've gave up on punishment styles a very
long time ago. Everything we teachin schools is not that punishment is bad.
I always say, you know,we've got four kids. Punishment isn't
(15:13):
bad. But it's going to stopbehavior. It's not going to start anything
new. We've talked about this anotherpodcast. So when you're trying to build
skills in kids athletically, there isnothing to support punitive measures. And so
when you're making them run, you'remaking them do these things. That's the
opposite of what you should be doing. You know, you should be having
them like do a silly dance.Whoever fills out the journal can get to
(15:37):
do this crazy silly dance between secondand third right, Like make it fun,
make it exciting, make it interesting, give a dopamine rush to the
front of the brain so they wantto do more of it. You can
incorporate some okay that wasn't okay,we're going to stop that behavior and give
some suicides or whatever. But ingeneral, it should be a good feel.
You should trust your teammates. Everyoneshould be out there. There is
(15:58):
a balance of coaching. Yeah,there's a balance of expressing your emotions about
something that happens, usually not usuallysomething negative, whether it's a play or
you know. And then you needto have the ability to and some people
are better at this than others,but you need to have the ability you
can express your emotions about that,but you also have to rein them in
(16:22):
and then understand how that player isgoing to respond best. Right, If
you want that player to improve,you want to take them aside and say,
listen, this is what upset me. This is what you what I
want you to do differently, thisis how you can improve that. This
is how you get better. Inthis instance, I don't hear or see
(16:48):
a lot of that second part.And I'm glad you clarify this because I'm
all about AMG responses. Right,you're gonna say what was that? Right,
Like we've known people to get kickedout deck hockey games over something like
this before. I'm not opposed tothose things, But like you said,
you then have to be able.So I Carter places hockey. There's a
(17:11):
range of types of coaches, right. I actually enjoy the ones who are
yelling a little bit louder so thatkids kind of know what they're supposed to
do. I am okay with expressingemotion not a problem. What I'm not
okay with is not raining it inat some point like it. It doesn't
have to be a certain style,doesn't always have to be the perfect way
of explaining something, but the kidsshould generally feel like you want them to
(17:33):
get better, like you're on theirside, like you want them to learn
that you care about them as aperson and as a player, and that
you want them there and you wantthem to get better. Yes, And
so this is escalated to different points. So they're already afraid. And this
has already bothered lots of parents,including myself, so's it's been escalating,
(17:53):
and so more most recently, we'vehad a juggle schedules a lot. Like
I said, we had some thingshappen where our schedule has changed a lot,
and so Juliana is in different placesmore often and things. So I'm
juggling a lot of schedules. Andso I really haven't made it to you.
Actually have been to more softball gamesfor her than I have at this
point. I went to one wewere prepping for colon I was prepping for
(18:17):
colonoscopy that particular day. I hadto ask shut out to getting older,
right right, which is what I'msaying. I don't know if it's getting
older. But I had to askJules if she needed anything before I left.
She was a series of three games. I stayed for the first.
I had to run to Carter allof these things, so I hovered back.
There was like the little huddle Hubbardback. There are people walking in
front of us and things. Andas I'm stepping back, I can see
(18:38):
the two female coaches like literally holdingtheir hands up next to each other's ear
whispering to each other as the othercoach is talking to the team. And
I was like, that's an oddbehavior, as you're supposed to be like
focused on motivating your teacher. Idon't think anything of it. Juliana came
out to me. I asked herwhat you need? She need a couple
of things in the car. Igot them for her so she could have
be there the whole day. Everythingwas fine, and another different tournament,
(19:00):
different weekend. I again, thetournament went longer. It was supposed to
have an hour and you people whodo sports will love us. It's supposed
to have an hour and twenty minutetimeline, which it did, except for
the fact that it was an hourand twenty minutes unless they started a new
inning. So they started a newinning at the at the end of the
hour and twenty then they played thebottom of the inning. Also, then
(19:21):
they were tied, so they endedup having to play another inning until there
was a win because it was likea rescheduled tournament, and so this went
way longer, like an hour longerthan it was supposed to. And they
had a second game after. Sowe had a very important family party to
go to, and so I hadto Gradualiana between the game, and I
said, do you want to stayor do you want to come with me?
She said I want to stay.I said, okay, let me
(19:44):
work out a ride for you.And then I came back up to her.
I said, here's your ride,here's something to eat and water.
I can't take that. I'm goingto get yelled at. And you know,
I had to go back, butI can't even go to the bathroom
because I'm going to get yelled at, which she is a thirteen year old
girl who sometimes needs to use thebathroom, right, so all of these
things I'm already up, but I'mlike, listen, it's fine. And
actually one of the team moms waslike, I'll tell her that she has
(20:07):
time in between here. I'll makesure she goes to the bathroom, like,
oh, great, great, leftit. She was fine. I
left the end of that game,the coaches pulled her aside. And they
lost, of course, And thecoaches pulled her aside and yelled at her
and said, you know, ifyour mom keeps coming up to the huddle
and comes up to talk to thegirls, you're not going to be allowed
to play. We lost because youyour mom, right and listen, they've
(20:30):
been a little funny this whole time. And I saw them play the week
before. It wasn't because the daybefore. It wasn't because you were in
the huddle right like. And again, first of all, I wasn't even
year old. Second of all,we talk about playing other sports. We've
had hockey. We've had other huddles, like, we've stood outside of huddles
and listen to it. We don'tyou know, I'm not one to like
(20:52):
step in the I have brought allof our kids water on the bench at
hockey games, and nobody has everlooked at me funny. And after hockey
game, they all hang around theall and it's moving twice as fast as
softball. Right, They're usually like, oh it's and for me. They're
like, oh it's for Carter.Here, I'll give it to and I'm
always like, oh, thank you, like and I'm so surprised. Yeah,
so they did that. They alsodid a meeting a while ago where
(21:12):
they told all the parents they couldnot go red Flood. Yes, And
they did this virtual meeting that wassupposed to last forty minutes. The lasted
two hours. And you know,as a mom, I sat in the
room or at least around the asthey were speaking, and it was very
much about like how terrible things are. They should come to them if they
need anything, and if they're exposedto things. They've been exposed to all
(21:33):
of these different things, drugs,alcohol, you could call us, and
the girls are kind of like,okay, okay, what do you want
to ask us? Of course they'renot asking anything, right. The intention
was good. I understand their theirintention of trying to help these girls,
seeing themselves as mentors to these girlsand trying to create a space for them
(21:57):
to feel comfortable coming to them asmentors that but they have not allowed laid
the foundation for that relationship. Theydo not treat these girls in that manner,
in a manner in which these girlstrust them. We've heard from several
(22:17):
of them who these coaches have zerocredibility. They have zero credibility with these
teenage girls, and they are tryingto cash in on that. You know,
they're trying to cash in on thatcredibility to create this dynamic where they're
mentors and they should enjoy their company. They want to be like that on
(22:41):
one hand, and then they wantto be the authority and yelling the other
endsten This is a tough age.Sure, it takes the talent to work
with middle school it really does.This is the challenge. Though. I
think if we take a step backand we've talked a little bit about this,
I think there's a little bit ofStockholm syndrome going on with these coaches,
I believe, and that they areespousing the perspective and the mindset and
(23:06):
the approach that they were exposed toas kids. A trauma over it,
right, and they are now becausethey it was their exposure, because that's
how they were treated, that's whatthey knew, that was their reality.
They now believe that's the way todo it even though and this is where
they I think because of that,they can't separate their experience from the reality
(23:32):
is even though everything that they're sayingto the girls is negative about their experience.
And you know, I feel badfor the women who are coaching these
girls because right, because it's comfortablefor them to do. Like we talked
about the last podcast, right,this is a comfortable feeling. And even
though they hated it, they're replayingit. And I don't throw this word
(23:53):
around lightly, but this is abusive. I was gonna say that. And
it's an abuse SIP patterns. Sothey've been abused in some ways and now
they don't know anything else but tobe And this is where, this is
what I wanted to say. Iam conflicted here because I want to talk
to them about it, because Iwant to fix it. I want to
(24:15):
I have. I have this funnyhope button, which you know you know
about and probably kept me in myfirst marriage for this long. Like I
want it. I feel like ifI could just get through to them,
I could help them, because theydo have like I can see the good
intention. I can see that theywant. They're clearly there for a reason.
You know that they I think thereis some intention of wanting to be
(24:37):
helpful. They didn't have to havea two hour long meeting with the girls.
You know, they were trying something, but they're doing it in such
the wrong way. They are notcycle breaking the abuse that they've experienced.
And again I've been struggling with thisbecause other I've asked other moms, other
dads, other people involved in thisteam. You know, should I say
something because I can help them figureout, you know, the research on
(25:00):
motivation, just even just saying hey, have you looked at this or read
this? But they have not beensuccessful. Other families have not been successful
having any conversations with them, andthey have also said like it has negatively
impacted their kids experience. There's basicallya retaliation component. So I've been struggling
with whether to say something or notto begin with. And then Julianna comes
(25:21):
home the other night, and thisis where I am like hitting my roof
because, as you said, Ihave come to appreciate the benefit of sports,
how much it can teach, howmuch it mimics the real world.
Right, And so she came homeand said she missed a ground ball.
It was kind of in between twopeople. It's neither hearing of that.
It's called the gap, the gapin between the gap. She missed one
(25:44):
and then I think missed a secondsomething like that, and the coach has
yelled catch the damn ball, Jules, which is I get like, they're
frustrated whatever, I'm sorry. Theycall her Jay on this team, so
catch the damn ball, Jag.And there's another girl named Juliana, so
they call her Jewel. And insteadof just stopping there, they looked at
this other girl and said, Jules, tell Jay, catch the damn ball.
(26:07):
I don't trust you. And Jewlesis a picture, Yes, so
there's a level of trust there.That's a hot button for pictures to have
to be able to trust their infielders. Yes, so she says, and
Jules, the other girl, islike, I can't say that. I
don't feel that way, and credityes. I feel like I love this
girl even more for not being ableto lose. So they pressure Jewels a
(26:29):
lot and finally turn to some ofthe other girls and make the other girls
say it to Jay. They wentdown the line until they found somebody in
the vulnerable girl who was willing todo it, who said to Jay,
catch the damn ball. Jay,we don't trust you. You have to
catch the damn ball. And theyare not only teaching this but forcing this
on the girls, even to thepoint where I've heard from other moms that
(26:51):
some of the other girls like feltlike they had to finally say catch the
dam ball, but still wouldn't sayI don't trust you, because she's like,
I do trust it, right,you know. So, this this
dynamic happens when she comes home.And to Jay's credit, she is a
very good emotional processor, and sheis she has become one. She's become
a wonderful so she knows what's happeninghere. We've talked about it over and
(27:12):
over again, and she has almostfound the extreme things like humorous in a
way like this was so bad,it's ridiculous, the ridiculousness of it,
I think. And that's she's nottaking it to heart. She doesn't pull
it in right. But then I'mlike these other girls, I'm going to
try not to get emotional. Butjust like the impact on those other girls,
(27:33):
to have somebody you is an authorityfigure, a female authority figure who
you are supposed to be relying onand looking up to because some of these
girls don't understand what's happening. Right, Tell you to tell another person that
is your friend and teammate. Youknow you're supposed to tell them how bad
they're doing, right, and tellthem you don't trust them as a way
(27:56):
to motivate them is just beyond me. I am. Like when I said
the word abuse earlier, I questionedmyself, this is why I refer to
as the Stockholm syndrome. Yeah,this is a perfect example of it.
Right, where does that come from? Like, so this, I would
guarantee you this happened to this woman, Yeah, at a point in her
(28:18):
life, probably similar in age tothese girls. Yeah, and here it
is she's now pushing it. Thisis why we talk about cycle breaking with
abusive relationship. Right, So,if you were abused and then you have
another relationship, you have to workvery hard to break that cycle because,
like we've talked about the comfort ofit, what you know, you fall
back on even if it was soimpactful to you it was traumatic, which
(28:42):
is clearly the case if you hearthese girls, these girls, these coaches
talk about their experiences. They weretraumatic. They feel trumps from these right,
yet they are imparting the exact samethings onto these girls. I think
also for a perspective, Jules facetimes me to tell me this, and
(29:03):
Ruby was there, yes, andso she's facetiming us. She's relaying the
story to us, and we are, you know, having our own reactions
to this. Our amy g wasflying ever around the room, you know,
and for for both Ruby and I, you know, because Ruby's all,
you know, like Jules is hersright, right, no one can
(29:26):
mess with it, right, You'renot gonna f with her. I'm gonna
f with her, but you know, one of those times, and Ruby
is an athlete who was played formen and women, who has played for
you know, tons of coaches,multiple countries, in multiple countries, you
know, basically says that is soridiculous. She's like, I have been
(29:48):
coached. She is playing varsity softballwith a woman who has coached you know,
college teams, and she said thatcoach is the hardest coach I've heard
I've ever had. And she wouldnever talk to me that way. No,
she said, it's important for youto all to trust each other.
She would never talk to anybody likethat right on her team, and which
(30:10):
I hope Jules heard, yes,and I hope that reinforces for her just
how ridiculous it is to the pointwhere it's like, let's let's try to
compartmentalize this to a point where thisis so ridiculous, and and we're she's
making a choice, and we've talkedabout this, she's making a choice because
it's the group of girls that areis keeping her there. Yes, But
(30:34):
at the same time, this isalmost like everything we've talked about this season.
It's like, you know, we'rein a pattern that she's in an
abusive relationship and it's very difficult toget her out of it, but it's
comfortable. It's something she's familiar withthe dynamic of, so she wants to
she wants to stay there. Soas a mom, I'm kind of like,
(30:55):
do I let her or doing that? She's also older, right,
so we shifting parenting styles and allowingher to make her own decisions, like
we've talked about. So now I'msaying to her, I'd like to say
something we've also talked about, howwe don't step in all the time when
we give natural consequences, right,but at this point there is a balance
of that right which we didn't reallytalk about before. But here it's like
do I allow this to continue ordoing not? And so she and I,
(31:17):
Jules and I are having these conversationslike all right, I won't do
anything you're not comfortable with. Andshe has made some excellent points. If
I say anything, she'll be retaliatedagainst. We don't. We're late enough
in the season where there's not reallyanother option for her to play. So
she wants to ride this out untilJune, right with her girls, with
the girls that she knows, Yes, she has a great perspective. She's
(31:38):
like, I'm going to get betterdespite them. I'm going to work on
my own stuff by myself. I'mgoing to get better and I'm going to
get better regardless of what they're doing, Like forget them, I'm going to
do my own thing. So that'sa great perspective and I appreciate that learning
and I'm all about that. Butthis is like I am struggling now as
a psychologist, as this is everythingI do is try to help people build
(32:01):
kids up and build their brain,you know, development, help them in
a positive way. This is notthat. And so it's now not just
about Jay, but it's about theother girls and the team who don't have
somebody necessarily to speak for them,or maybe they didn't tell their parents what
was happening or what internalizing, andthey internalize it. And I have seen
(32:22):
so many kids internalize these things.Talk about my whole job is creating mental
health foundations, teaching coping and adaptiveskills so we don't run into suicidality,
depression, anxiety. These are thebasis for how this develops and this and
those girls don't have to be thetarget necessarily that Jules is. No.
(32:43):
They could just be a spectator,a bystander to this, and it's still
impact them right when they form theirown relationships later down the road when they
basically this is normal. If theythink that this is okay, they're going
to be okay with it. Inas you're the point you're making is other
relationships that they have where it's abusiveand it's nature, They're not going to
(33:07):
necessarily have the basis of the understandingto say this isn't right, this isn't
okay. And that's where I am. If I don't say it's not okay,
who speaks up for people? Andat the same time, I'm struggling
with supporting my own daughter in herability. She's got a lot of strength
and she probably can handle a lotof this. But I'm in the middle
(33:29):
of all of this in a dynamic, in this way where I don't want
to be Listen. I have draftedthe anonymous Facebook post to the New Jersey
Softball page facebook page, probably aboutten fifteen times about you know, explain
you know, and listen. There'sa whole we could have a whole other
(33:50):
podcast, not episode, a wholeof the podcasts about youth sports, yeah,
but and parents and youth sports.But this is one of the those
things that you know, like I'vedrafted it. The reason I haven't posted
it or said anything because hey,it's not worth yeah, repercussions for Juliana.
But even just like it won't beheard rightly having to read the comments
(34:17):
that are dismissive of it because theythis person has a different perspective, or
they don't, they just are spousingsomething else, or they're just so used
to abusive relationships. Well, andthis is the thing, and we go
back to this idea that we startedwith in this podcast, which is I
don't know if I'm just getting olderor if I if people have changed so
much because what you said is absolutelytrue, there will be posts, some
(34:39):
for and some against. You're notchanging anybody's mind. Nobody's open to listening.
They know best. So as muchas I want to be like,
hey, can I help you right? Like no, no good or bad?
I think you have good intentions,but I'd like to help you,
it's probably going to be ill received, so it'll fall into here. Do
you just sit with what you know? Or do you try to make it
(34:59):
better and it's an answer or it'sa question. I don't have an answer
to you wrong, So I don'tknow if you're rubbing off on me,
or if the ways of the worldare just terrible and I'm just getting older,
or another day to ponder him.Cheers. Well, thanks for joining
us for this episode of What's HappeningHere? Don't forget to subscribe to our
YouTube page or you can follow meon Instagram at doctor Sarah l Alan and
(35:23):
keV shows up all out there too. Be sure to tell a friend what
you liked about this episode and shareit with them. After all, we're
all in this together, just tryingto figure out what's happening here.
Welcome to What's Happening Here. Thisis a podcast for finding the perfect imbalance
of being a parent, a partner, and a person without losing the things
that matter most to you in theprocess. Like you're Sennity, you might
know me as doctor Sarah the BrainGal. I'm a pediatric neuros psychologist and
mom of two who translates brain scienceto everyday life. I see all kids,
really all people like little brains.You probably don't know me. I'm
(00:24):
Kevin, Sarah's partner in crime,Bourbon Afcinado, discusser of all things,
and father of two. We startedthis podcast because we saw a big gap
between research and practice, especially whenyou have a unique family structure like ours,
and we wanted to share what wehave learned and hopefully what we continue
about navigating our lives through the lensof brain science with a big old helping
of reality. Next day, weknow there are lots of families that look
(00:47):
like ours, we're kind of likeour, or maybe look nothing like ours,
which makes finding a single source ofguidance and advice so hard. But
we're going to try to help you. So join us as we try to
figure out what's happening here, Keef, I have to tell you, I
think you're rubbing off on me.I like the rubb one thing that was
a softball, no pun intended forwhat we'll probably talk about. But I
(01:11):
have had this feeling lately, andI don't know if it's you or if
I'm just getting older with more experiencespeaking from experiences, probably both, But
I have come to be very frustratedwith people, like with the way of
the world with it and I workin a lot of schools and I get
(01:32):
frustrated with that system. I'm luckyI have a lot of contracts where I'm
helping districts like systemically try to makethings better, but I've also run into
districts who thought they were going todo that and then have are too scared
of the change, like completely shutdown, can't get out of their own
way. And I feel like we'vecome into a situation where all of that
(01:53):
is like coming together all at onetime. And I have a lot of
amg about this, Like my amagsup about that in a in a very
unique way for me, because althoughwe talk about sports a lot, I
am not usually as passionate sports wiseas you, and like I would I
would argue that you've come around alittle bit on this, and I think
(02:15):
that by our conversations you have seenthat it's not just and how I view
it as not just you know whatthe kids are doing on the field or
on the rink. It's a there'sa bigger picture to yes, and I
think that that's where you have pickedup on seeing that through our discussions and
seeing your kids play, seeing ourkids play, and you know, we've
(02:38):
talked a lot about those situations.So I think you've started to realize that
there's more to it. Not realizeit, but you've come to see us
for a moment, understand it now. You're right about that. I and
also understand it in general, likejust get understand how the game works and
fielder's choice. Yeah, and feelfly. I was gonna say fly,
but I wasn't sure. I'm stillgetting to know it. I know our
(03:01):
size is now, so that's good. And handball that's my favorite one when
I'm like, I know what thatmeans. Whatever the thing is the hand
and they But that's not the point. The point is you're right. I
have come to appreciate and actually you'revery right. I've come to appreciate what
sports teaches kids, and I loveit for I'm always big on interventions that
(03:23):
aren't very intervention driven like they are. They're sneaky ones like the ones,
not that we wouldn't tell you whatthey are, but they come naturally right.
So I used to run a groupof a Lego group for kids with
autism. It was the social Skillsgroup, and the best part about that
was they all love Legos and itwas just based around splitting up the jobs
so the kids had to use eachother to get a project done. He
(03:46):
would be great, he yes,he would be great with that. He
would also be great with helping tomodel like socially things too, because he's
so got such a calm, greatway about him. They would have loved
him. But yeah, So youteach social skills through this interaction, that
thing that they love and the interactionsthat they need to have. So it's
not contrived. It's not like asocial skills story where we read about what
(04:08):
it's like this. It's like actuallyhappening, which is a therapist dream to
make something happen in the session thatyou can then help to guide through because
we don't often get that if it'sin a session like that. So I
love sports for the idea that,Wow, look at how many natural things
come up, that there's a coachto guide you through processing that and really
(04:29):
being able to make change while yourAMG is up while Frannie's around to kind
of figure all that out. Itcan be a microcosm of the world yes,
yes, and the things that yourun into as a person in that
world. And Ruby is a wonderfulexample because she's so good and she's so
dedicated, she so loves the game. Like watching you and her talk about
(04:49):
her building her skills has been wonderful, and like her figuring out how to
get out of her head at certaintimes and her how to how she's psychologically
working through the game and continuing tobuild their skills. And you know,
with sports, I don't think Iever realized there how much natural failure there
will be. Right you get upat bat, You're not going to hit
that ball every single time. Andso seeing that and building kids up to
(05:14):
be able to manage that, Ithink has been very important. And so
you're right, I have come toappreciate it for a number of reasons.
And although a softball game is stillvery long, for me. I still
like the idea of it, right, and especially when they get older,
and it's better not as long asbaseball games. That's why I well,
hockey's more my speeds, like kindof one hour long hour, Yeah,
(05:38):
that works out best. But againI'm like, look, you know,
I love efficiency. I'm like,in an hour, you get the same
amount of learning done, but youget at all game. But we have
come into like quite a pickle here, don't you think we have a certain
situation with Juliana and the team thatshe's on. Yeah, it's kind of
been brewing for a little it.I think we've each seen some I think
(06:02):
we've seen different parts of it,right, Yeah, Like I think I
was paying more attention to the redflags that were coming up from a softball
team management. Right you saw youknow, like in the game stuff or
even just different decisions on how touse kids or when they use kids and
when they did use right the coachingparty game. And then I think,
(06:26):
because maybe you had more insight throughyou know, conversations with Jules, you
started to see more of the redflags from the social aspect of it,
of the dynamics between the people involvedand motivation learning side like it just like
a school. You're going to havea learning component to coaching, right,
(06:47):
and motivation component of coaching. Yeah. And I think that you are a
very good judge of people, forsure. And early on I felt like,
okay, they're saying everything right.This coaching staff. You know,
they're interested in the girls being selfaware. They do journals so that they
think about where they were and wherethey want to be. These are all
(07:09):
things on paper that are absolutely theright thing. They look at their performance.
The coach made a very good pointto say, I look at basically
how the kids are doing. Idon't look at I look at data.
Remember he said I look at dataand not the kids. And that was
kind of like, Okay, that'san interesting thing for me because there's so
much of a psychology to softball tosports, right. But that was fine,
(07:30):
and early on it was great.I mean, the girls loved each
other, The team really liked eachother, and Juliana got a lot out
of it. And that was lastyear, and then moving into this year,
there were some very strange things thatstarted to happen. And I don't
know, if you know, youknow somebody for a while on colors just
show eventually or if this like ifthis had always been there, or if
(07:53):
this is something that's going on withthe coaches, because I find very much
that whenever things happen in your personallife, that's going to bleed, right,
and especially if there's lack of insightinto that, it's going to bleed
even more so. Lately, thegirls they've never really loved practice, but
they liked it a lot more lastyear. This year, the girls are
coming home saying like they don't wantto go to practice. They don't,
(08:13):
they're just gonna get yelled at.Juliana has had this huge fear that our
coach is gonna yell at her.Now. Julian is a very kind of
self driven girl. If you tellher to work on something, she tends
to work on it, like shemight slack on something. But when when
when you tell her and you're like, no, this is you have to
do this in order to play,you have to do this in order to
(08:33):
sleep over your friend's house. Youcan't fail Jim and think you're going to
have sleepovers Juliana and the whole term. You have to actually do better.
She will step up. I don'tI never, she doesn't strike me as
a person who doesn't take criticism.Yeah, she hears it, and she
takes it fine. Yeah, she'svery good at It's not somebody you have
(08:56):
to like yell and scream at forthem to understand to get your point right.
The only time I've ever had todo that is when she's so emotional
that she can't break through that wallfor some reason. There's other factors in
them, but generally speaking, you'reright. She is. She will hear
you, and it's one of thethings I love most about her. She
will hear you and will move forwardto making change. You know, we
(09:18):
have gone to therapy. Yes,yes, we have gone to therapy,
her and I and she wants tobe there. She wants to make it
better, even if we're having areally tough time, which is what works
right, so's yes, she's that'sher perspective on it. And yes,
sometimes she's thirteen, she does herthing, but really deep she's never really
a problem, and so her notwanting to go to a practice of something
(09:41):
she really loves is a flag.Her fearing getting yelled at to that extent,
to the extent of don't hand methis water, mom, I'll get
yelled at don't get me, youknow, don't talk to me, don't
look at me, don't don't talkto me. Between games. I'm not
allowed to come out of the dugoutright, don't stand too close to our
team huddle because the coaches don't wantyou to hear what they're saying to us.
(10:05):
Right, don't you know pick meup if you have to. I'll
get screened at, you know,like everything is, and I'll get yelled.
I can't. And I know we'vebeen here for four hours and the
game is started at half an hourlate, and I know you have to
be somewhere, and I know you'veyou know, changed your schedule to accommodate
this game going long, and youhave to get me a ride somewhere,
(10:28):
But you're not allowed to talk tome about that or eat like they won't
they can't eat at certain times inbetween game. Don't hand me something to
eat in between with that four hours. I'm like, you need to eat
something, you have to. We'renot talking about during a game. And
also this stuff that happened between games'grade not while they're practicing or warming up.
This is while they're standing around,right, And you know there's a
(10:50):
lot of these teams have these rulesthat you can't be a certain amount of
feed from the dugout because parents willyell and scream or something like that.
Some people go to the outfield tosure that they their voice is not necessarily
heard. Right, We've all accommodatedfor things like that. Of course,
yes we're not talking about that.You know, I might cheer for her,
but I might come join you inthe outfields so you have company.
(11:13):
But you know, other than that, that's really and I'm for those rules.
They have the twenty four hour rule. If you have mad at a
coach, you wait twenty four hours. I'm a big proponent of that.
I think that's the excellent rule.So they have all the rules on paper.
Again, they have all these thingson paper. But then it's things
like somebody didn't do their journal,so they have to run extra and not
(11:33):
just a little bit, but suicidesand okay, that is an old coaching
style, or maybe even a consistentcoaching style a little bit. But I'm
not as concerned. I don't knowhow you feel about it. I think
the essentially what the problem is isthat there is a punitive nature to their
(11:54):
coaching. Yes, it is not. There's no positive reinforcement. Everything is
a punishment if you don't every andthat's their focus. It's not on you
know, how can we make youbetter? It's don't you better not do
that? You better not make thatmistake? And everything and really every and
the girls, from what I've heard, they feel like anything they do is
(12:18):
a mistake unless it's unless it's perfectright. And these are I don't know
if you've seen fourteen U softball,but it is far from perfect well,
and everything everything about it is farfrom perfect well. And even if it
is perfect right, it's a backwardscomp I had to literally explain to Juliana
what a backwards compliment is, youknow, like, oh, you suddenly
said that was great, finally rightright, It's like it cuts it right.
(12:43):
There is a punitive nature to theirapproach and how they how they coach,
how they speak to the children,how to the girls, how you
know, the it's a punitive reinforcementas opposed to positive reinforcement. They don't
enjoy practice, they don't want tobe there. They're not focused on connecting
the girls, and so the girlssurprisingly are very connected. That's the only
(13:05):
reason Julianne is still there, anda lot of the other girls are there
because they like each other. Butyou're right, everything is punitive and so
they're always not only are they afraidthey're going to get in trouble, but
they're pretty much going to get introuble. And I think also there have
been we have understood that there havebeen instances in which the girls have some
of the girls have pushed back andbeen honest, like saying, we're afraid
(13:26):
to make mistakes. Yes, Andthere was a conversation where, you know,
the coach is basically denied that beingtrue. Right, you know,
there was also a case where thecoach told Julianna what she was thinking.
Here's here's a gentleman who's probably inhis fifties who's telling a fourteen year old
that he knows what she's thinking.Well, what happened was and that's essentially
(13:48):
that was the first. That wasthe first like one of the early red
flags. But that right there issums up everything that is wrong. Well,
he said to her, you know, something about to correct a swing
or something, and she said andhe said, so what are you going
to do? And she said,I'll work on it outside of practice,
and he said, I know whatyou're thinking. You're just thinking you're gonna
tell me that and then you're notgoing to do it. And she's like,
(14:11):
no, I'll actually work on it, and Julianna will, and this
is he should know her, shewill work on it. He's not interested
in that, and he's not interestedin getting to know them because he thinks
he already knows who they are.Yeah, he knows, and they all
as he's done this for so long. Well, and then you have,
you know, two softball girls whoplayed softball in college and are now out
(14:31):
of college, who are helping toassist with coaching, and they've had these
they they've told these girls what terribleexperiences they've had in high school and how
they need college and college are right, and how they need to ride these
out, and how their coaches,you know, were ten times worse to
them and they hated playing. Andso they're team them up. And most
(14:52):
of these girls aren't going to stopplaying, or they're going to play in
high school but not really push themselves. And so that's where kind of everybody's
heading. And it's been very sadto watch because we know from learning theories
and from psychology that you know,we've gave up on punishment styles a very
long time ago. Everything we teachin schools is not that punishment is bad.
I always say, you know,we've got four kids. Punishment isn't
(15:13):
bad. But it's going to stopbehavior. It's not going to start anything
new. We've talked about this anotherpodcast. So when you're trying to build
skills in kids athletically, there isnothing to support punitive measures. And so
when you're making them run, you'remaking them do these things. That's the
opposite of what you should be doing. You know, you should be having
them like do a silly dance.Whoever fills out the journal can get to
(15:37):
do this crazy silly dance between secondand third right, Like make it fun,
make it exciting, make it interesting, give a dopamine rush to the
front of the brain so they wantto do more of it. You can
incorporate some okay that wasn't okay,we're going to stop that behavior and give
some suicides or whatever. But ingeneral, it should be a good feel.
You should trust your teammates. Everyoneshould be out there. There is
(15:58):
a balance of coaching. Yeah,there's a balance of expressing your emotions about
something that happens, usually not usuallysomething negative, whether it's a play or
you know. And then you needto have the ability to and some people
are better at this than others,but you need to have the ability you
can express your emotions about that,but you also have to rein them in
(16:22):
and then understand how that player isgoing to respond best. Right, If
you want that player to improve,you want to take them aside and say,
listen, this is what upset me. This is what you what I
want you to do differently, thisis how you can improve that. This
is how you get better. Inthis instance, I don't hear or see
(16:48):
a lot of that second part.And I'm glad you clarify this because I'm
all about AMG responses. Right,you're gonna say what was that? Right,
Like we've known people to get kickedout deck hockey games over something like
this before. I'm not opposed tothose things, But like you said,
you then have to be able.So I Carter places hockey. There's a
(17:11):
range of types of coaches, right. I actually enjoy the ones who are
yelling a little bit louder so thatkids kind of know what they're supposed to
do. I am okay with expressingemotion not a problem. What I'm not
okay with is not raining it inat some point like it. It doesn't
have to be a certain style,doesn't always have to be the perfect way
of explaining something, but the kidsshould generally feel like you want them to
(17:33):
get better, like you're on theirside, like you want them to learn
that you care about them as aperson and as a player, and that
you want them there and you wantthem to get better. Yes, And
so this is escalated to different points. So they're already afraid. And this
has already bothered lots of parents,including myself, so's it's been escalating,
(17:53):
and so more most recently, we'vehad a juggle schedules a lot. Like
I said, we had some thingshappen where our schedule has changed a lot,
and so Juliana is in different placesmore often and things. So I'm
juggling a lot of schedules. Andso I really haven't made it to you.
Actually have been to more softball gamesfor her than I have at this
point. I went to one wewere prepping for colon I was prepping for
(18:17):
colonoscopy that particular day. I hadto ask shut out to getting older,
right right, which is what I'msaying. I don't know if it's getting
older. But I had to askJules if she needed anything before I left.
She was a series of three games. I stayed for the first.
I had to run to Carter allof these things, so I hovered back.
There was like the little huddle Hubbardback. There are people walking in
front of us and things. Andas I'm stepping back, I can see
(18:38):
the two female coaches like literally holdingtheir hands up next to each other's ear
whispering to each other as the othercoach is talking to the team. And
I was like, that's an oddbehavior, as you're supposed to be like
focused on motivating your teacher. Idon't think anything of it. Juliana came
out to me. I asked herwhat you need? She need a couple
of things in the car. Igot them for her so she could have
be there the whole day. Everythingwas fine, and another different tournament,
(19:00):
different weekend. I again, thetournament went longer. It was supposed to
have an hour and you people whodo sports will love us. It's supposed
to have an hour and twenty minutetimeline, which it did, except for
the fact that it was an hourand twenty minutes unless they started a new
inning. So they started a newinning at the at the end of the
hour and twenty then they played thebottom of the inning. Also, then
(19:21):
they were tied, so they endedup having to play another inning until there
was a win because it was likea rescheduled tournament, and so this went
way longer, like an hour longerthan it was supposed to. And they
had a second game after. Sowe had a very important family party to
go to, and so I hadto Gradualiana between the game, and I
said, do you want to stayor do you want to come with me?
She said I want to stay.I said, okay, let me
(19:44):
work out a ride for you.And then I came back up to her.
I said, here's your ride,here's something to eat and water.
I can't take that. I'm goingto get yelled at. And you know,
I had to go back, butI can't even go to the bathroom
because I'm going to get yelled at, which she is a thirteen year old
girl who sometimes needs to use thebathroom, right, so all of these
things I'm already up, but I'mlike, listen, it's fine. And
actually one of the team moms waslike, I'll tell her that she has
(20:07):
time in between here. I'll makesure she goes to the bathroom, like,
oh, great, great, leftit. She was fine. I
left the end of that game,the coaches pulled her aside. And they
lost, of course, And thecoaches pulled her aside and yelled at her
and said, you know, ifyour mom keeps coming up to the huddle
and comes up to talk to thegirls, you're not going to be allowed
to play. We lost because youyour mom, right and listen, they've
(20:30):
been a little funny this whole time. And I saw them play the week
before. It wasn't because the daybefore. It wasn't because you were in
the huddle right like. And again, first of all, I wasn't even
year old. Second of all,we talk about playing other sports. We've
had hockey. We've had other huddles, like, we've stood outside of huddles
and listen to it. We don'tyou know, I'm not one to like
(20:52):
step in the I have brought allof our kids water on the bench at
hockey games, and nobody has everlooked at me funny. And after hockey
game, they all hang around theall and it's moving twice as fast as
softball. Right, They're usually like, oh it's and for me. They're
like, oh it's for Carter.Here, I'll give it to and I'm
always like, oh, thank you, like and I'm so surprised. Yeah,
so they did that. They alsodid a meeting a while ago where
(21:12):
they told all the parents they couldnot go red Flood. Yes, And
they did this virtual meeting that wassupposed to last forty minutes. The lasted
two hours. And you know,as a mom, I sat in the
room or at least around the asthey were speaking, and it was very
much about like how terrible things are. They should come to them if they
need anything, and if they're exposedto things. They've been exposed to all
(21:33):
of these different things, drugs,alcohol, you could call us, and
the girls are kind of like,okay, okay, what do you want
to ask us? Of course they'renot asking anything, right. The intention
was good. I understand their theirintention of trying to help these girls,
seeing themselves as mentors to these girlsand trying to create a space for them
(21:57):
to feel comfortable coming to them asmentors that but they have not allowed laid
the foundation for that relationship. Theydo not treat these girls in that manner,
in a manner in which these girlstrust them. We've heard from several
(22:17):
of them who these coaches have zerocredibility. They have zero credibility with these
teenage girls, and they are tryingto cash in on that. You know,
they're trying to cash in on thatcredibility to create this dynamic where they're
mentors and they should enjoy their company. They want to be like that on
(22:41):
one hand, and then they wantto be the authority and yelling the other
endsten This is a tough age.Sure, it takes the talent to work
with middle school it really does.This is the challenge. Though. I
think if we take a step backand we've talked a little bit about this,
I think there's a little bit ofStockholm syndrome going on with these coaches,
I believe, and that they areespousing the perspective and the mindset and
(23:06):
the approach that they were exposed toas kids. A trauma over it,
right, and they are now becausethey it was their exposure, because that's
how they were treated, that's whatthey knew, that was their reality.
They now believe that's the way todo it even though and this is where
they I think because of that,they can't separate their experience from the reality
(23:32):
is even though everything that they're sayingto the girls is negative about their experience.
And you know, I feel badfor the women who are coaching these
girls because right, because it's comfortablefor them to do. Like we talked
about the last podcast, right,this is a comfortable feeling. And even
though they hated it, they're replayingit. And I don't throw this word
(23:53):
around lightly, but this is abusive. I was gonna say that. And
it's an abuse SIP patterns. Sothey've been abused in some ways and now
they don't know anything else but tobe And this is where, this is
what I wanted to say. Iam conflicted here because I want to talk
to them about it, because Iwant to fix it. I want to
(24:15):
I have. I have this funnyhope button, which you know you know
about and probably kept me in myfirst marriage for this long. Like I
want it. I feel like ifI could just get through to them,
I could help them, because theydo have like I can see the good
intention. I can see that theywant. They're clearly there for a reason.
You know that they I think thereis some intention of wanting to be
(24:37):
helpful. They didn't have to havea two hour long meeting with the girls.
You know, they were trying something, but they're doing it in such
the wrong way. They are notcycle breaking the abuse that they've experienced.
And again I've been struggling with thisbecause other I've asked other moms, other
dads, other people involved in thisteam. You know, should I say
something because I can help them figureout, you know, the research on
(25:00):
motivation, just even just saying hey, have you looked at this or read
this? But they have not beensuccessful. Other families have not been successful
having any conversations with them, andthey have also said like it has negatively
impacted their kids experience. There's basicallya retaliation component. So I've been struggling
with whether to say something or notto begin with. And then Julianna comes
(25:21):
home the other night, and thisis where I am like hitting my roof
because, as you said, Ihave come to appreciate the benefit of sports,
how much it can teach, howmuch it mimics the real world.
Right, And so she came homeand said she missed a ground ball.
It was kind of in between twopeople. It's neither hearing of that.
It's called the gap, the gapin between the gap. She missed one
(25:44):
and then I think missed a secondsomething like that, and the coach has
yelled catch the damn ball, Jules, which is I get like, they're
frustrated whatever, I'm sorry. Theycall her Jay on this team, so
catch the damn ball, Jag.And there's another girl named Juliana, so
they call her Jewel. And insteadof just stopping there, they looked at
this other girl and said, Jules, tell Jay, catch the damn ball.
(26:07):
I don't trust you. And Jewlesis a picture, Yes, so
there's a level of trust there.That's a hot button for pictures to have
to be able to trust their infielders. Yes, so she says, and
Jules, the other girl, islike, I can't say that. I
don't feel that way, and credityes. I feel like I love this
girl even more for not being ableto lose. So they pressure Jewels a
(26:29):
lot and finally turn to some ofthe other girls and make the other girls
say it to Jay. They wentdown the line until they found somebody in
the vulnerable girl who was willing todo it, who said to Jay,
catch the damn ball. Jay,we don't trust you. You have to
catch the damn ball. And theyare not only teaching this but forcing this
on the girls, even to thepoint where I've heard from other moms that
(26:51):
some of the other girls like feltlike they had to finally say catch the
dam ball, but still wouldn't sayI don't trust you, because she's like,
I do trust it, right,you know. So, this this
dynamic happens when she comes home.And to Jay's credit, she is a
very good emotional processor, and sheis she has become one. She's become
a wonderful so she knows what's happeninghere. We've talked about it over and
(27:12):
over again, and she has almostfound the extreme things like humorous in a
way like this was so bad,it's ridiculous, the ridiculousness of it,
I think. And that's she's nottaking it to heart. She doesn't pull
it in right. But then I'mlike these other girls, I'm going to
try not to get emotional. Butjust like the impact on those other girls,
(27:33):
to have somebody you is an authorityfigure, a female authority figure who
you are supposed to be relying onand looking up to because some of these
girls don't understand what's happening. Right, Tell you to tell another person that
is your friend and teammate. Youknow you're supposed to tell them how bad
they're doing, right, and tellthem you don't trust them as a way
(27:56):
to motivate them is just beyond me. I am. Like when I said
the word abuse earlier, I questionedmyself, this is why I refer to
as the Stockholm syndrome. Yeah,this is a perfect example of it.
Right, where does that come from? Like, so this, I would
guarantee you this happened to this woman, Yeah, at a point in her
(28:18):
life, probably similar in age tothese girls. Yeah, and here it
is she's now pushing it. Thisis why we talk about cycle breaking with
abusive relationship. Right, So,if you were abused and then you have
another relationship, you have to workvery hard to break that cycle because,
like we've talked about the comfort ofit, what you know, you fall
back on even if it was soimpactful to you it was traumatic, which
(28:42):
is clearly the case if you hearthese girls, these girls, these coaches
talk about their experiences. They weretraumatic. They feel trumps from these right,
yet they are imparting the exact samethings onto these girls. I think
also for a perspective, Jules facetimes me to tell me this, and
(29:03):
Ruby was there, yes, andso she's facetiming us. She's relaying the
story to us, and we are, you know, having our own reactions
to this. Our amy g wasflying ever around the room, you know,
and for for both Ruby and I, you know, because Ruby's all,
you know, like Jules is hersright, right, no one can
(29:26):
mess with it, right, You'renot gonna f with her. I'm gonna
f with her, but you know, one of those times, and Ruby
is an athlete who was played formen and women, who has played for
you know, tons of coaches,multiple countries, in multiple countries, you
know, basically says that is soridiculous. She's like, I have been
(29:48):
coached. She is playing varsity softballwith a woman who has coached you know,
college teams, and she said thatcoach is the hardest coach I've heard
I've ever had. And she wouldnever talk to me that way. No,
she said, it's important for youto all to trust each other.
She would never talk to anybody likethat right on her team, and which
(30:10):
I hope Jules heard, yes,and I hope that reinforces for her just
how ridiculous it is to the pointwhere it's like, let's let's try to
compartmentalize this to a point where thisis so ridiculous, and and we're she's
making a choice, and we've talkedabout this, she's making a choice because
it's the group of girls that areis keeping her there. Yes, But
(30:34):
at the same time, this isalmost like everything we've talked about this season.
It's like, you know, we'rein a pattern that she's in an
abusive relationship and it's very difficult toget her out of it, but it's
comfortable. It's something she's familiar withthe dynamic of, so she wants to
she wants to stay there. Soas a mom, I'm kind of like,
(30:55):
do I let her or doing that? She's also older, right,
so we shifting parenting styles and allowingher to make her own decisions, like
we've talked about. So now I'msaying to her, I'd like to say
something we've also talked about, howwe don't step in all the time when
we give natural consequences, right,but at this point there is a balance
of that right which we didn't reallytalk about before. But here it's like
do I allow this to continue ordoing not? And so she and I,
(31:17):
Jules and I are having these conversationslike all right, I won't do
anything you're not comfortable with. Andshe has made some excellent points. If
I say anything, she'll be retaliatedagainst. We don't. We're late enough
in the season where there's not reallyanother option for her to play. So
she wants to ride this out untilJune, right with her girls, with
the girls that she knows, Yes, she has a great perspective. She's
(31:38):
like, I'm going to get betterdespite them. I'm going to work on
my own stuff by myself. I'mgoing to get better and I'm going to
get better regardless of what they're doing, Like forget them, I'm going to
do my own thing. So that'sa great perspective and I appreciate that learning
and I'm all about that. Butthis is like I am struggling now as
a psychologist, as this is everythingI do is try to help people build
(32:01):
kids up and build their brain,you know, development, help them in
a positive way. This is notthat. And so it's now not just
about Jay, but it's about theother girls and the team who don't have
somebody necessarily to speak for them,or maybe they didn't tell their parents what
was happening or what internalizing, andthey internalize it. And I have seen
(32:22):
so many kids internalize these things.Talk about my whole job is creating mental
health foundations, teaching coping and adaptiveskills so we don't run into suicidality,
depression, anxiety. These are thebasis for how this develops and this and
those girls don't have to be thetarget necessarily that Jules is. No.
(32:43):
They could just be a spectator,a bystander to this, and it's still
impact them right when they form theirown relationships later down the road when they
basically this is normal. If theythink that this is okay, they're going
to be okay with it. Inas you're the point you're making is other
relationships that they have where it's abusiveand it's nature, They're not going to
(33:07):
necessarily have the basis of the understandingto say this isn't right, this isn't
okay. And that's where I am. If I don't say it's not okay,
who speaks up for people? Andat the same time, I'm struggling
with supporting my own daughter in herability. She's got a lot of strength
and she probably can handle a lotof this. But I'm in the middle
(33:29):
of all of this in a dynamic, in this way where I don't want
to be Listen. I have draftedthe anonymous Facebook post to the New Jersey
Softball page facebook page, probably aboutten fifteen times about you know, explain
you know, and listen. There'sa whole we could have a whole other
(33:50):
podcast, not episode, a wholeof the podcasts about youth sports, yeah,
but and parents and youth sports.But this is one of the those
things that you know, like I'vedrafted it. The reason I haven't posted
it or said anything because hey,it's not worth yeah, repercussions for Juliana.
But even just like it won't beheard rightly having to read the comments
(34:17):
that are dismissive of it because theythis person has a different perspective, or
they don't, they just are spousingsomething else, or they're just so used
to abusive relationships. Well, andthis is the thing, and we go
back to this idea that we startedwith in this podcast, which is I
don't know if I'm just getting olderor if I if people have changed so
much because what you said is absolutelytrue, there will be posts, some
(34:39):
for and some against. You're notchanging anybody's mind. Nobody's open to listening.
They know best. So as muchas I want to be like,
hey, can I help you right? Like no, no good or bad?
I think you have good intentions,but I'd like to help you,
it's probably going to be ill received, so it'll fall into here. Do
you just sit with what you know? Or do you try to make it
(34:59):
better and it's an answer or it'sa question. I don't have an answer
to you wrong, So I don'tknow if you're rubbing off on me,
or if the ways of the worldare just terrible and I'm just getting older,
or another day to ponder him.Cheers. Well, thanks for joining
us for this episode of What's HappeningHere? Don't forget to subscribe to our
YouTube page or you can follow meon Instagram at doctor Sarah l Alan and
(35:23):
keV shows up all out there too. Be sure to tell a friend what
you liked about this episode and shareit with them. After all, we're
all in this together, just tryingto figure out what's happening here.
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