July 30, 2021 • 13 mins
Washington Post Columnist Josh Rogin joins Jack Armstrong to talk about gain-of-function research and the failures that lead-up to the pandemic.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Armstrong and Getty Show, and let's let's send Dr facts.
I have to Well, now you're getting into something. If
the point that you are making is that the grant
that was funded as a sub award from Eco Health
to WUHAN created sauce Kovie too. That's where you are
(00:23):
getting let me finish. We don't know the lab, but
all the evidence is pointing that it came from the lab,
and there will be responsibility for those who funded the lab,
including yourself. I totally totally resent the law that you
are now propagating, Senator. So there's a lot of back
(00:44):
back and forth. Actually, Rand Paul, Senator Rand Paul and
Dr Fauci, you have gotten into it a couple of times,
and a few times it's been over masks and this
and that, and I and I thought, you know, Rand,
you might be going too far here or what. But
but but on the stuff of the doing the gain
of function research and what Fouccia knew and when he
(01:05):
knew it, I think Rand might be on the right
side of that. And one of the people I go
to on those kinds of things is Josh Rogan, and
he might be the go to guy out there in
terms of a journalist who's looked into the COVID and
where it came from, and China's rolling at Josh. Welcome
back to the Armstrong and Getty Show. Thanks for coming on.
So we opened with a clip of the back and
(01:27):
forth between Rand Paul and Dr Fauci last week. We've
still got the whole problem that the gravitational pull of
Donald Trump is equal to that of the sun. And
you know, every conversation ends up me, Okay, Rand Paul's
a Trump guy. Fauci's and never Trump or so I'm
on the side of and you know you choose based
on that. What I want to know is, are are
(01:48):
we funding this gain of function research? And shouldn't we
be doing this? I mean getting to the point that
this was a man made disaster. I think we keep
forgetting right. COVID is a man made disaster. We created
this damn thing. Yeah, I think, first of all, I
agree with you the two things that you said are related,
(02:08):
because you know, I'm not an anti Foucci guy. I'm
just a guy who wants to figure out how he
got into this mess, how we got how the pandemic started,
because it's crucial to prevent the next pandemic. If we
don't figure out how we get how this started, we
won't know what to do in our policy and our
politics to fix the system. So we know this never
happens again. And it's clear in that sort of Senate hearing,
(02:28):
but also in a record of what Anthony Fauci has
been saying and doing over the last year and a
half that he doesn't want an examination into our relationship
people Labs resisted edit in every step. He's been very consistent.
Every time he's asked about it. He deflects, well, it's
not Gaina function research. Yeah, but that's not the point.
The point is that it was risky, and you knew
it was risky. And by the way he created that
(02:50):
definition of Gaina function research, it's like a loophole, right.
He defined it in such a way that you never
have to review any of the stuff that you're funding
in Muhan And that's exactly what happened. He built the loophole,
not just him and I Angient, Francis Collins and all
these guys who are invested in this industry. They've built
a loophole into it. Then nothing's gained. A function research
so we don't have to review anything. And then when
(03:10):
the pandemic hits and willhan and everyone's like, oh wait
a second, maybe we should have reviewed this very risky research.
And what Faugie did was he not only sort of
played dumbo, I don't what are you talking about. Everything's
fine when he was asked on CNN, hey, do you
still think it's a good idea considering these Huhan labs
just told us to go score ourselves when the pandemic
and we wanted to do the investigation, and he said, well,
(03:32):
I guess we have to do it because we have
to the battor in China. So he's got an agenda here,
which is to continue the research that he's in charge
of and to expand it actually sixfold, and to get
more US taxpayers to pay more US scientists like Anthony
Fauci and his friends to do more work with these
Chinese labs. And all I'm saying is, before we do that,
(03:52):
shouldn't we figure out if the labs sparked the pandemic? Yeah?
I would say so, and uh and is it and
our human beings capable of doing this story research and
not letting it leak out because you've told us in
other interviews, uh that this is not uncommon this, this
has happened a number of times where where things leak out.
So maybe it's just not something human beings can do
(04:14):
can do well. I want to clear one thing up
because he said they're invested, did you mean financially or
just um, you mean financially and their careers and so
what you have to understand is that in the world
of virus research is thet NE. Fauci is the head
of it. He's funding almost all of it in one
way or another hymn in the NIH. They are what
(04:36):
spending US taxpayer dollars to sponsor risky research all over
the world. And what the National security people are saying.
And if you saw it today, Menendez and Rubio and
Risch and warnered like these are not you know, fire
breathing maga. These are the heads of the Senate Farm
Relations and Senate Intel committees put out a letter today
and they said, we have to force China to let
(04:58):
us investigate these labs, and we have to review all
of our relationships with these labs. That's the point, that's
what Faucie is resisting because you know, even if the
lab leak theory isn't true, what's clear is that they
have no idea what's going on in these labs that
they're funding, and how can we have a system we're
we're funding these labs doing risky research and then they
won't even know let us in the lab where you
(05:20):
literally can't walk into the lab when the pandemic hits
on their doorstep. That's a crazy system argue just about
the system works. He's saying that we should keep that
system and expand that system. And I say, wait a second,
before we expand the system and make empthys fast to
the head of that new system, maybe we should figure
out if it leaked out from the lab. Man. I
(05:40):
hope maybe you do. But I hope you realize how
important you are on this story, because I just I
don't think there are enough people that understand it and
enough people that have the gramatas to get anybody's attention,
because you are you know, you're not a trumper um
by any means. If anybody reads your stuff, you know,
I would hope that the other half of America would
listen to you and say, WHOA, let's slow down on this.
(06:02):
So do you think Fauci and his crowd just don't.
They just don't think we're we're smart enough to understand
what they're doing, and he's afraid we'll shut them down.
His message on CNN was trust me, don't worry, trust me,
he said, We've always been safe, We'll continue to be safe.
We're gonna keep doing it. And in fact, if if
(06:25):
you look at his interview this weekend in the New
York Times, he proposes expanding this research everything influenza H
one and when you name it, he wants to do
risky research all over the world, including in labs in China. Now,
I think, I do think that the narrative is changing
very very slowly, to be sure, not just because it
made because a lot of people who are like, hey,
wait a second, that's crazy, and maybe we need some
(06:46):
oversight of all these scientists because they're checking their own homework, right,
And then of course they're all telling each other that
everything's fine, but look around the world, everything's not fine, okay,
And you know, the w h O was going to
try again, and the Chinese are gonna go tell them
to screw themselves, and we'll be back where we started
in another year. Unless somebody gets off the pot and
does something. Okay, and the Biden administration is not going
(07:09):
to do it unless they're pushed to do it. But
more and more people in Congress, and now more Democrats,
which is really a I gotta tell you, Jack, it's
a big change. Like I was actually surprised when I
saw that today Menendez and Warner, they're you know, they're
not gonna say that and and go sort of pushing
the administration to do more to investing in the origins
if they didn't really believe it, right, if they didn't
really think that this was really important. So I think
(07:30):
there is a bipartisan opportunity here, and unfortunately that means
asking Anthony Founcy a bunch of uncomfortable questions that has
clearly been avoiding for over a year. Yeah, I would
say so. Um. And then there was that story that
France the Chinese kicked the French out and France warned
us and saying, hey, they're they're they're not letting us
(07:51):
keep an eye on them anymore, and we don't think
they're being careful. And you know the fact that that
story is a couple of years old, but nobody mentioned
that at the beginning of this pandemic, and somebody the
government knew that, you know, in April when I wrote
the story breaking the news of the cables, the diplomatic
(08:11):
cables that reported back in ten that the Wuhan student
virology was had bad safety standards and that they were
doing risky coronavirus research on bats and how they could
become more infection with these humans. You know, I was
called every name in the book, right, And like you said,
I'm not a Trump guy, I'm not a pro trunk,
I'm not an a Trump guy. I just try to
call him like I see him. And you know, what
(08:32):
you have to realize is that the Chinese Communist Party
controls everything, and that our scientific collaboration is not between
Anthony Fauci and those very nice Chinese scientists. That's not
the way it works over there. They have a different system.
Those Chinese scientists can't tell us the truth or they're
gonna get killed literally literally will be killed or worse.
And so we have to understand that dealing with the
(08:54):
totalitarian dictatorship means that they're going to take our engagement
and use it against us, literally weaponized against us at
every opportunity. And so that's why I think when Anthony
Fauci has asked directly about that and he's like, well, nothing,
there's no problem here. I think that's where a lot
of people can see the disconnectants can see why we
can't have scientific collaboration that's actually a dual use military
(09:16):
technology that our adversary is going to use fill the
machine they're pointing at us, and that we're gonna pay
for that, we should still pay for it. You know
that's crazy? Yeah. Wow. Josh Rogan, global opinions columnists for
the Washington Post and from my money, the best person
out there on this stuff. So this columny you had recently,
Chinese China's vaccine profiteering at the u N is being
(09:37):
funded by US taxpayers. I was unaware of this. This
is a really maddening. Can you explain that to people?
You know, this is really crazy, because you know the
United what China has done with its vaccines as they've
gone around the world, threatening, bullying, coercing countries, literally hanging
shots over their heads and and and forcing them to
choose between the Chinese Communist Party's politics of the own
(10:00):
citizens lives. That's how China is using its power and
its influenced You know, now we see what paging wants
to be in a world in a world power. But
the worst part of it is that the international systems
were distributing to vaccines to poor people, which is, we're
the majority funder of which we're donating the most too,
decided to use all of that money to buy these
(10:21):
Chinese vaccines from the government owned Chinese company at a markup.
And essentially what that means is that US taxpayers are
giving the Chinese government money to send vaccines that don't work,
by the way, to poor countries. And sort of pointing
that out was seen to be somehow controversial. But all
(10:42):
I did was follow the money we paid Kovacs, which
is the international system may pay the Chinese state owned
company by the way, the vaccines don't even work, So
that seems crazy to mean we shouldn't be doing that. Yeah,
just a little bit from your article. A senior US
official told you that it's not actually the US donated money. Um,
but as you write, that claim is specious because money
(11:04):
is fungible. Kind of an argument is that dividing the
counts on paper is meaningless. The United States is funding Kovacs,
and Kovacs is paying China, you know, And yeah, it's
kind of crazy to say that we give them two
billion dollars and that's not the two billion dollars they're
going to use to pay the Chinese. It doesn't make
any sense. It doesn't pass the last test. But you
know what's what's even more crazy is that, you know,
(11:25):
the Biden administration they have an ability to influence these
multilateral organizations. That's why Trump pulled us out because all
these multilateral organizations kept doing the wrong things, doing the
thing that China wanted them to do. And the Biden
team is like, oh no, these organizations could be useful
and I think they can, but not if you just
let them continue to do the wrong thing. So my words,
(11:48):
the Bid administrations like, hey, guys, why don't you get
on this and you know, tell Kovacs to not spend
Americans money on crappy each Chinese vaccinees. I just gonna
make the problem worse because they give people people of
false sense of security, they go out and spread the virus. Right,
it's actually we're actually spending money to pay China and
makes the situation worse. And what Biden people say. It
(12:08):
was like, oh, yeah, well, I guess it's too late,
you know. Um, we're talking with Josh Rogan. I really
appreciate your time today. Man, he's a good read anytime
he writes about any of this stuff. Really, I think
the best out there. And man, stay on that because
the world needs to know what's going on. And you're you're, you're,
you're in their jock straps. Thank thank god, Josh Rogan,
(12:29):
Global Opinions columnists of the Washington Post, Thanks for your
time today. So a little more on this this So
it's called COVACS. That's the w h O S. You know,
we've gotta get vaccines. We've gotta get shots out to
people all around the world. And UH, to give you
an uh, we're the good guys in this story by far,
and China is the bad guys in the world. Needs
(12:49):
to know this because we're locked in a war with
China for you know which which one of these polls
are you gonna be pulled toward the United States or China?
The two super hours in the world. China has contributed
zero money to the Tough the World Project to try
to get vaccines to people. Zero money and zero shots
(13:10):
from their national stockpile of their vaccine, while the United
States has pledged four billion dollars and distributed fifty five
million donated shots and promised to donate five million more
no charge. So the US taxpayer by far the good
guy the superhero in this story, and China the evil villain.
And I don't think enough people know this, And the
(13:32):
Biden administration, by the way, could do a hell of
a better job of making sure the world does know
where the good guy on this and China is the
bad guy, because we gotta win this war of of
convincing people
The Armstrong and Getty Show, and let's let's send Dr facts.
I have to Well, now you're getting into something. If
the point that you are making is that the grant
that was funded as a sub award from Eco Health
to WUHAN created sauce Kovie too. That's where you are
(00:23):
getting let me finish. We don't know the lab, but
all the evidence is pointing that it came from the lab,
and there will be responsibility for those who funded the lab,
including yourself. I totally totally resent the law that you
are now propagating, Senator. So there's a lot of back
(00:44):
back and forth. Actually, Rand Paul, Senator Rand Paul and
Dr Fauci, you have gotten into it a couple of times,
and a few times it's been over masks and this
and that, and I and I thought, you know, Rand,
you might be going too far here or what. But
but but on the stuff of the doing the gain
of function research and what Fouccia knew and when he
(01:05):
knew it, I think Rand might be on the right
side of that. And one of the people I go
to on those kinds of things is Josh Rogan, and
he might be the go to guy out there in
terms of a journalist who's looked into the COVID and
where it came from, and China's rolling at Josh. Welcome
back to the Armstrong and Getty Show. Thanks for coming on.
So we opened with a clip of the back and
(01:27):
forth between Rand Paul and Dr Fauci last week. We've
still got the whole problem that the gravitational pull of
Donald Trump is equal to that of the sun. And
you know, every conversation ends up me, Okay, Rand Paul's
a Trump guy. Fauci's and never Trump or so I'm
on the side of and you know you choose based
on that. What I want to know is, are are
(01:48):
we funding this gain of function research? And shouldn't we
be doing this? I mean getting to the point that
this was a man made disaster. I think we keep
forgetting right. COVID is a man made disaster. We created
this damn thing. Yeah, I think, first of all, I
agree with you the two things that you said are related,
(02:08):
because you know, I'm not an anti Foucci guy. I'm
just a guy who wants to figure out how he
got into this mess, how we got how the pandemic started,
because it's crucial to prevent the next pandemic. If we
don't figure out how we get how this started, we
won't know what to do in our policy and our
politics to fix the system. So we know this never
happens again. And it's clear in that sort of Senate hearing,
(02:28):
but also in a record of what Anthony Fauci has
been saying and doing over the last year and a
half that he doesn't want an examination into our relationship
people Labs resisted edit in every step. He's been very consistent.
Every time he's asked about it. He deflects, well, it's
not Gaina function research. Yeah, but that's not the point.
The point is that it was risky, and you knew
it was risky. And by the way he created that
(02:50):
definition of Gaina function research, it's like a loophole, right.
He defined it in such a way that you never
have to review any of the stuff that you're funding
in Muhan And that's exactly what happened. He built the loophole,
not just him and I Angient, Francis Collins and all
these guys who are invested in this industry. They've built
a loophole into it. Then nothing's gained. A function research
so we don't have to review anything. And then when
(03:10):
the pandemic hits and willhan and everyone's like, oh wait
a second, maybe we should have reviewed this very risky research.
And what Faugie did was he not only sort of
played dumbo, I don't what are you talking about. Everything's
fine when he was asked on CNN, hey, do you
still think it's a good idea considering these Huhan labs
just told us to go score ourselves when the pandemic
and we wanted to do the investigation, and he said, well,
(03:32):
I guess we have to do it because we have
to the battor in China. So he's got an agenda here,
which is to continue the research that he's in charge
of and to expand it actually sixfold, and to get
more US taxpayers to pay more US scientists like Anthony
Fauci and his friends to do more work with these
Chinese labs. And all I'm saying is, before we do that,
(03:52):
shouldn't we figure out if the labs sparked the pandemic? Yeah?
I would say so, and uh and is it and
our human beings capable of doing this story research and
not letting it leak out because you've told us in
other interviews, uh that this is not uncommon this, this
has happened a number of times where where things leak out.
So maybe it's just not something human beings can do
(04:14):
can do well. I want to clear one thing up
because he said they're invested, did you mean financially or
just um, you mean financially and their careers and so
what you have to understand is that in the world
of virus research is thet NE. Fauci is the head
of it. He's funding almost all of it in one
way or another hymn in the NIH. They are what
(04:36):
spending US taxpayer dollars to sponsor risky research all over
the world. And what the National security people are saying.
And if you saw it today, Menendez and Rubio and
Risch and warnered like these are not you know, fire
breathing maga. These are the heads of the Senate Farm
Relations and Senate Intel committees put out a letter today
and they said, we have to force China to let
(04:58):
us investigate these labs, and we have to review all
of our relationships with these labs. That's the point, that's
what Faucie is resisting because you know, even if the
lab leak theory isn't true, what's clear is that they
have no idea what's going on in these labs that
they're funding, and how can we have a system we're
we're funding these labs doing risky research and then they
won't even know let us in the lab where you
(05:20):
literally can't walk into the lab when the pandemic hits
on their doorstep. That's a crazy system argue just about
the system works. He's saying that we should keep that
system and expand that system. And I say, wait a second,
before we expand the system and make empthys fast to
the head of that new system, maybe we should figure
out if it leaked out from the lab. Man. I
(05:40):
hope maybe you do. But I hope you realize how
important you are on this story, because I just I
don't think there are enough people that understand it and
enough people that have the gramatas to get anybody's attention,
because you are you know, you're not a trumper um
by any means. If anybody reads your stuff, you know,
I would hope that the other half of America would
listen to you and say, WHOA, let's slow down on this.
(06:02):
So do you think Fauci and his crowd just don't.
They just don't think we're we're smart enough to understand
what they're doing, and he's afraid we'll shut them down.
His message on CNN was trust me, don't worry, trust me,
he said, We've always been safe, We'll continue to be safe.
We're gonna keep doing it. And in fact, if if
(06:25):
you look at his interview this weekend in the New
York Times, he proposes expanding this research everything influenza H
one and when you name it, he wants to do
risky research all over the world, including in labs in China. Now,
I think, I do think that the narrative is changing
very very slowly, to be sure, not just because it
made because a lot of people who are like, hey,
wait a second, that's crazy, and maybe we need some
(06:46):
oversight of all these scientists because they're checking their own homework, right,
And then of course they're all telling each other that
everything's fine, but look around the world, everything's not fine, okay,
And you know, the w h O was going to
try again, and the Chinese are gonna go tell them
to screw themselves, and we'll be back where we started
in another year. Unless somebody gets off the pot and
does something. Okay, and the Biden administration is not going
(07:09):
to do it unless they're pushed to do it. But
more and more people in Congress, and now more Democrats,
which is really a I gotta tell you, Jack, it's
a big change. Like I was actually surprised when I
saw that today Menendez and Warner, they're you know, they're
not gonna say that and and go sort of pushing
the administration to do more to investing in the origins
if they didn't really believe it, right, if they didn't
really think that this was really important. So I think
(07:30):
there is a bipartisan opportunity here, and unfortunately that means
asking Anthony Founcy a bunch of uncomfortable questions that has
clearly been avoiding for over a year. Yeah, I would
say so. Um. And then there was that story that
France the Chinese kicked the French out and France warned
us and saying, hey, they're they're they're not letting us
(07:51):
keep an eye on them anymore, and we don't think
they're being careful. And you know the fact that that
story is a couple of years old, but nobody mentioned
that at the beginning of this pandemic, and somebody the
government knew that, you know, in April when I wrote
the story breaking the news of the cables, the diplomatic
(08:11):
cables that reported back in ten that the Wuhan student
virology was had bad safety standards and that they were
doing risky coronavirus research on bats and how they could
become more infection with these humans. You know, I was
called every name in the book, right, And like you said,
I'm not a Trump guy, I'm not a pro trunk,
I'm not an a Trump guy. I just try to
call him like I see him. And you know, what
(08:32):
you have to realize is that the Chinese Communist Party
controls everything, and that our scientific collaboration is not between
Anthony Fauci and those very nice Chinese scientists. That's not
the way it works over there. They have a different system.
Those Chinese scientists can't tell us the truth or they're
gonna get killed literally literally will be killed or worse.
And so we have to understand that dealing with the
(08:54):
totalitarian dictatorship means that they're going to take our engagement
and use it against us, literally weaponized against us at
every opportunity. And so that's why I think when Anthony
Fauci has asked directly about that and he's like, well, nothing,
there's no problem here. I think that's where a lot
of people can see the disconnectants can see why we
can't have scientific collaboration that's actually a dual use military
(09:16):
technology that our adversary is going to use fill the
machine they're pointing at us, and that we're gonna pay
for that, we should still pay for it. You know
that's crazy? Yeah. Wow. Josh Rogan, global opinions columnists for
the Washington Post and from my money, the best person
out there on this stuff. So this columny you had recently,
Chinese China's vaccine profiteering at the u N is being
(09:37):
funded by US taxpayers. I was unaware of this. This
is a really maddening. Can you explain that to people?
You know, this is really crazy, because you know the
United what China has done with its vaccines as they've
gone around the world, threatening, bullying, coercing countries, literally hanging
shots over their heads and and and forcing them to
choose between the Chinese Communist Party's politics of the own
(10:00):
citizens lives. That's how China is using its power and
its influenced You know, now we see what paging wants
to be in a world in a world power. But
the worst part of it is that the international systems
were distributing to vaccines to poor people, which is, we're
the majority funder of which we're donating the most too,
decided to use all of that money to buy these
(10:21):
Chinese vaccines from the government owned Chinese company at a markup.
And essentially what that means is that US taxpayers are
giving the Chinese government money to send vaccines that don't work,
by the way, to poor countries. And sort of pointing
that out was seen to be somehow controversial. But all
(10:42):
I did was follow the money we paid Kovacs, which
is the international system may pay the Chinese state owned
company by the way, the vaccines don't even work, So
that seems crazy to mean we shouldn't be doing that. Yeah,
just a little bit from your article. A senior US
official told you that it's not actually the US donated money. Um,
but as you write, that claim is specious because money
(11:04):
is fungible. Kind of an argument is that dividing the
counts on paper is meaningless. The United States is funding Kovacs,
and Kovacs is paying China, you know, And yeah, it's
kind of crazy to say that we give them two
billion dollars and that's not the two billion dollars they're
going to use to pay the Chinese. It doesn't make
any sense. It doesn't pass the last test. But you
know what's what's even more crazy is that, you know,
(11:25):
the Biden administration they have an ability to influence these
multilateral organizations. That's why Trump pulled us out because all
these multilateral organizations kept doing the wrong things, doing the
thing that China wanted them to do. And the Biden
team is like, oh no, these organizations could be useful
and I think they can, but not if you just
let them continue to do the wrong thing. So my words,
(11:48):
the Bid administrations like, hey, guys, why don't you get
on this and you know, tell Kovacs to not spend
Americans money on crappy each Chinese vaccinees. I just gonna
make the problem worse because they give people people of
false sense of security, they go out and spread the virus. Right,
it's actually we're actually spending money to pay China and
makes the situation worse. And what Biden people say. It
(12:08):
was like, oh, yeah, well, I guess it's too late,
you know. Um, we're talking with Josh Rogan. I really
appreciate your time today. Man, he's a good read anytime
he writes about any of this stuff. Really, I think
the best out there. And man, stay on that because
the world needs to know what's going on. And you're you're, you're,
you're in their jock straps. Thank thank god, Josh Rogan,
(12:29):
Global Opinions columnists of the Washington Post, Thanks for your
time today. So a little more on this this So
it's called COVACS. That's the w h O S. You know,
we've gotta get vaccines. We've gotta get shots out to
people all around the world. And UH, to give you
an uh, we're the good guys in this story by far,
and China is the bad guys in the world. Needs
(12:49):
to know this because we're locked in a war with
China for you know which which one of these polls
are you gonna be pulled toward the United States or China?
The two super hours in the world. China has contributed
zero money to the Tough the World Project to try
to get vaccines to people. Zero money and zero shots
(13:10):
from their national stockpile of their vaccine, while the United
States has pledged four billion dollars and distributed fifty five
million donated shots and promised to donate five million more
no charge. So the US taxpayer by far the good
guy the superhero in this story, and China the evil villain.
And I don't think enough people know this, And the
(13:32):
Biden administration, by the way, could do a hell of
a better job of making sure the world does know
where the good guy on this and China is the
bad guy, because we gotta win this war of of
convincing people
Hosts And Creators
Joe Getty
Jack Armstrong
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