June 19, 2024 • 41 mins
Founder of Date Brazen and author of Thank You, More Please, Lily Womble, is back to discuss the problems with our societies current dating set up while giving tangible tips of how to do things differently and truly find the love of your life. Lily tells Kelly why she thinks dating apps are a scam and also gives listeners the tools to get back to meeting people in real life out in the world. She also gives her number one anxiety relieving dating advice, talks about how to utilize your friends in couples productively in your dating life and tells listeners to start getting picky when it comes to who they date. If you are struggling to meet any one that feels like a good match or find yourself in mismatched relationships over and over, this podcast is for you! '
Book: Thank You, More Please
Podcast: The Date Brazen Podcast
Socials: @datebrazen
Work with Lily: datebrazen.com
Follow Velvet's Edge on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/velvetsedge/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's The Velvet's
Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Feminist dating coach and a founder of Date Brazen. Lily
Womble is back. Hi Lily, Hi Kelly. I'm so glad
to have you back. I know your book is officially out.
Thank you. More pleasing She's born, She's.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Born in the world. It's been four years.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
How did it feel to be the mother of a
book and have a book out there?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Oh? My god? Well, I worry about her all the time. No, though,
that is more truth than I would like to. Yeah, admit,
but no, I'm just really grateful. I think that it's
been you know, writing a book with such a an
insular process, with my small team and my publisher who
(00:49):
were so great, Legacy Lit. But I was so grateful
that people are reading it and loving it, and it's
so gratifying to hear people's thoughts and affirmation that this
does resid and then it's fun and hilarious and like
a page turner. Like that's just makes me so so
freaking happy.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, I think everyone can relate to struggles and dating
right like that is a pretty common theme amongst all
of the conversations I have in my friend groups, at work,
just everywhere. And I know the last time you were
here we talked about your experience you were a matchmaker
for many years and then finding yourself still in toxic
situationships in your personal life, and you're like, wait, I
(01:29):
gotta get a hold of this. So can you kind
of catch the listeners up to date if they did
not hear that podcast of just your story of getting
into being a dating coach by founding Date Brazen and
then also finding the love of your life.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh my god, Yes, of course, So I loved our
past episode and if anybody again hasn't listened, a little
bit of backstory for me. I grew up in the
Deep South, where I saw that a woman's worth was
so deeply tied to her relationship status with assist gender
man saw that coupled women were treated as a head
quote unquote of single women, and that I also was
(02:07):
labeled from a very young age is like too much,
you know, too sensitive to bossing two intents, which I
think so many women, especially from the South or more
conservative cultures, can relate to this idea of like having
me needs having a personality, having a lot of opinions
is not necessarily looked at as a positive thing if
you're a woman or a girl. And so I entered
(02:30):
my adulthood. I was I worked in the nonprofit world
for feminist nonprofits that were supporting the well being of
women and girls. And when I burnt out of nonprofit life,
I moved to New York. I was living my dreams
of you know, trying to make it in theater and
auditioning and had fifty survival jobs. And one of those
(02:52):
survival jobs ended up randomly being at a matchmaking firm.
So I, a friend of mine worked for them. They
were hiring more employees. I applied. I thought, that's hilarious.
I'm a late bloomer. I'm a late bloomer who's too much.
Who's I'm going to give dating advice? Lol? But I
realized in becoming a matchmaker and then becoming the third
(03:14):
most successful out of one hundred and sixty at that
firm over the next couple of years, is that dating
was a microcosm of our well being. It was a
microcosm of every hope, joy, dream, fear, insecurity, desire that
we had. And so I could help women be well,
if I could help them with their dating lives. But
the problem was that my dating life was a dumpster fire.
I was, as I mentioned, a late bloomer. I didn't
(03:38):
have sex until I was in my mid twenties. I
felt eternally behind, and I landed in this really toxic
relationship with somebody who was good on paper but didn't
meet any of my needs. Yeah, and once I found
the courage after a lot longer than I wanted to
be in that relationship, I stayed for a lot longer
than I would have liked. I think because I was
(03:59):
so scared that I was too much. I found the
courage to leave that person with the help of my therapist.
But then I was like, now, what, how do I
never settle again? Because my therapist hasn't dated in thirty years,
she's been married for thirty years. My friends just tell
me to swipe more good on another dating app. Matchmaking
is a first date level solution, and that's not going
(04:20):
to work. And I'm not going to use a dating
app all the time because I know that that's just
a tool. It's a very flawed tool. So I started
building my own solution, and I started getting beneath the
surface of my checklist, the good on paper matches, and like,
how do I really want to feel with the right person?
What are my sence based preferences? And I learned the
skill of self compassion, and I became my first client,
(04:41):
and I then had fun in my dating life. I
felt free in my dating life, and I eventually met
the love of my life through a strategy that I
now teach called joy building, where you literally just go
make new connections, expand your social circle, and ask people
to set you up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And yeah, we are going to get into the details
of that because I think the listeners are probably going
to want to know exactly what your method is here. Yeah,
that's what we all want, right this joy based dating
and to have fun. I know so many of my friends,
the conversations that we have are just how terrible dating is,
and I think a lot of that is because of
(05:19):
the way our society is set up. You refer to
yourself as a feminist dating coach. Yeah, it's you know,
feminism is a real kind of trigger word for a
lot of people these days. But explain to the listeners
what you mean by being a feminist dating coach.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, so feminism to me, and the definition is the
equality of all people, you know, and and there have
been a lot of systems and structures and rules put
in place that make it so that men have more
power than women. I mean, if we just look at uh,
the uh you know, the pay pay gap and uh
(05:55):
and so many other pointers towards the fact that our
world is not equal in any measure yet. And so
feminism is the equality of all people. Intersectional feminism is
a term coined by doctor Kimberly Crenshaw that simply means that, like,
everything is connected, and the way that we do one
(06:17):
thing is though we do everything. I think that different
forms of oppression like patriarchy that says men have power
women shouldn't have power, forms of oppression like white supremacy
and homophobia, transphobia, they all work together to make our
culture very difficult, especially for people who hold marginalized identities.
(06:38):
And I, as a woman growing up in the world,
saw how you know, this hot soup of culture led
to me shrinking all the time in my dating life,
right Like, I was afraid to ask for what I
wanted because I was afraid that I would rock the
boat or that a man would tell me no, or
(06:59):
that I would be shamed or blamed for wanting what
I wanted, which was true. I mean, like I experienced
dating men who were absolutely wrong for me, who made
me feel bad for wanting what I wanted, and I
would have no more of that, you know. So feminist
dating specifically is how can I give myself permission to
want what I want? How can I surround myself with
(07:22):
people who believe that I get to take up space,
who don't shame me for asking for what I want?
And how can I also empower other people to ask
for what they want? Right? That, Like, the way we
do one thing is the way we do everything. So
if I can help people take up more space with
their desires and their love life, then that gets to
spread throughout their whole lives. So that's why I think
(07:44):
feminist dating is about agency. It's about it's about confidence
in who you are and what you desire. It's about
attracting an equal partner, whether you date men or women
or human beings, just attracting an equal partner is what
feminist dating is about. And it's about believing your worthiness
(08:05):
along the way instead of believing that you're behind for
being single.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, it's so interesting for me. And I don't know
if you relate to this at all, but the full
idea of the patriarchy kind of took me a second,
if I'm being really honest, to identify my part in it,
Like I couldn't fully see how it had played out
in my life definitively. And you know, there's a lot
of like people want to blame men, and I really
(08:32):
don't even know if it's a man's fault. It's just
it's sort of just the way our society was set up.
And until I was reading some of your book, I
was like, I've never even thought about how a lot
of these narratives have played out in my life because
they're just so ingrained. When you're talking about well, I
was just going to say, when you're talking about the
dating stuff. The one of the things you talk about
(08:53):
a lot in the book is as women, we're told like,
don't be too picky, and like it's our fault that
we haven't found and the partner of our dreams. And
you just said something about learning how to take up
space and asking yourself like what do I really want?
And it sounds so simple, but I think for so
many women, especially in the South, Like you said, we
(09:14):
are not taught that. We're just taught find a partner
and get married, not necessarily how to find a partner
that we can find joy with, that we that truly
is the right match for us, right where we can
land and be ourselves.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, and if we're really going there, Kelly, I mean,
it wasn't for me. It wasn't just find a partner
to settle down with. It was find a good man
to settle down with, right. And I think that that
was that cultural narrative and the latent homophobia or explicit
homophobia I experienced from a young age in school. When
a kid was to be thought gay in school, they
(09:51):
would be ostracized and made fun of and bullied. Even
I mean I was going to school in the early
two thousands, it wasn't like a very it wasn't a
very inclusive environment or welcoming environment for people who were
different than the straight, you know, heteronormative standard. So that's
why I didn't realize I was or come out as
bisexual to myself until I was in my mid twenties.
(10:15):
And I write about that in the book too, that
like you know, these these narratives that I was taught
that we all were taught of, like settle down with
a nice man, because that represents safety, that represents societal
your normal. You know that thing's wrong with you? Success? Right,
All these things lead this lead to this really hot
soup of pressure that a lot of people experience. And
(10:39):
they come to me saying like, I just want to
find a partner. I want to find a partner, but
I'm too late and I don't know how to do it.
And we have to really separate out what is your
desire for the right partner, what is the patriarchal conditioning
making you feel so anxious and scarce? And how can
we come into The book is really about how can
you come into your most joyful day eating life possible
(11:01):
on your terms, stripping away all of the rules that
you were taught that don't serve you.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Well, you've mentioned the word anxiety. Anxious, like frantic is
kind of the just that when you're talking about some
of your clients coming in and you talk about this
in the book, but you have some anxiety relieving dating advice.
So can you tell us everything we can already?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Yeah, curl ups, come close, Come close. You can't say
the wrong thing to the right person.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Say that one again, because it's so damn good.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
You cannot say the wrong thing to the right person. Yes,
so this idea of I hear so many people saying,
did I break up with the right person? Did I
just screw up my chances of finding love because I
set a boundary? And maybe I shouldn't have because who
(11:53):
am I to say? No? He was nice enough, she
was nice enough. Whatever. You can't set the wrong thing
to the right person. I can't say the wrong thing
to the right person. So like, if you feel the
need to bless and release, odds are if that person
probably wasn't your person.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Uh you ask me bless and release? You just breezed
over that real fast.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, but it is. What does it mean? It means
acknowledging what you want. That's the blessed part, right, acknowledging
like okay, or acknowledging the effort if it was a
positive interaction. Nothing was like quote wrong, but it just
doesn't feel right long term. Bless it, you know, okay,
then release it. It's sort of like like imagining releasing
(12:33):
a fish back into the water, like releasing them to
find what's best for them. Blessing your own desires and
releasing yourself of the need to caregive for another person
who is wrong for you, so so bless and release
is another piece of anxiety. Were leaving dating advice, but
about the you can't say the wrong thing to the
right person if you're freaking out about I asked them
(12:54):
out too early and they think I'm weird or oh
my god, I just asked that question. I asked them
to be exclusive, and and what if they thought that
was weird? What if they thought that was too much?
You can't say the wrong thing to the right person, Kelly,
I talked about my ex for thirty minutes on my
first date with my now husband. Would not recommend it,
would not recommend it for anyone, but I was still healing.
(13:16):
I was seeing a therapist, but it came up and
Chris made me feel so loved and seen and held
in that moment, and then so I couldn't say the
wrong thing to the right person. And then Chris a
couple months later was like, Hey, Lily, could be not
talk about your ex because I'm a verbal processor and
I was just like vomiting verbally, vomiting all these things
(13:36):
and healing from my last toxic relationship before Chris. He's like, hey, Lily,
can you talk about that with your friends or therapists?
Like I don't. I want to focus on us, so
the right person will also be able to set boundaries
for themselves. You don't have to caregive for them all
the time. You just got to listen and respond and
be a human being in partnership with another person. When
(13:57):
it's right, that's what it will feel like. Is that easeful?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
It's like that. I think it's a Buddhist principle, but
you can't mess up anything meant for you. That has
been such a relief to me in life because I
just like everything you're describing. We overthink everything, and specifically
in dating, right, because I think a lot of us
just want to get it quote unquote right yep. And
you want to find love and you want to find
a partner, and of course we all want the fairy
(14:20):
tale that's painted. But the reality is is that that
takes a lot of practice and maybe a lot of
missus before you find that. So it's been so relieving
to me to really adopt that. I love that idea.
Let's talk about dating apps, because I think that's the
way that most people are finding relationships or finding go
(14:44):
you know, finding new people to go on dates with.
And you actually say that they are a scam.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
So just to put that out, let's put it out there. Okay,
So let's unpack this now.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Okay, let's do it.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I do think in the book, I have two chapters
devoted to my feminist takedown of dating apps, which I'm
going to spill the details here. Both and I do
teach you and in person dating strategy. It's chapter seven
Dating in Person with main character Energy. So and I
teach you how to become the CEO of a dating
app if you want to use one. So I lay
(15:18):
out all the details of like why they're a scam,
and you get an in person plan and you get
the like, if you want to use this resource, here's
how to do it with the most power possible, sort
of gaming the dating apps and taking back the control.
So why do I say that dating apps are a scam?
Why do you think? Let's examine what we believe about
(15:40):
the popular consciousness will tell us about dating apps. Right,
what comes to mind for me is that they're like
the best solution.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Well, sure, and best answer, that's what I would have said.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Why do we believe that? I think because you know,
if they've increased our access to dates and whatever, they
have been a resource both and they have so much
more money being poured into marketing over the last twelve
years we have experienced and enormally I don't have the
exact number, but it's multimillion, if not billions of dollars
in dating app marketing geared towards people exactly our age
(16:14):
with messages like hinge proposes, which is designed to be deleted,
what is that marketing message doing. It's telling us we're safe,
come come, come play, come play with us, Come download
our app because we're on your side. We want you
to download it, to delete it. But then then like
strip back another layer. There are publicly traded companies and
(16:36):
publicly traded companies their their main objective is to make
money for their shareholders and to increase profitability or revenue
in every single quarter. And how do they do that
by creating more more addictive dating app features, by by
creating a culture in which dating apps are looked at
(16:56):
as the quote only answer right, even when the data
from Pew Research in twenty twenty three found that only
twelve to twenty four percent of people in committed partnerships
met with a dating app.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Wait solve to twenty three Is.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
That twenty four percent?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah? Four percent? Okay, yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:13):
And that data that number ranges from like twelve percent.
The lowest percent are people older than thirty. And also
people who are LGB, lesbian, gay, bisexual have a higher
percentage of meeting partners on dating apps for a couple
different reasons.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I think one being physical safety, right that, like a
lot of places are not physically safe actually to date
in person, and so dating apps have become an important
resource to build community and romantic relationships for a lot
of folks. But anyway, so I digress, like we believe
the dating apps are the only answer because of their
marketing messages. It's not actually a dating apps to make
(17:52):
anything easier. They actually are incredibly addictive. Their job is
to make money for their shareholders, and I think that's
why it's important to walk in with eyes wide open.
I also want a reference in twenty eighteen, this is
just one of several examples. Twenty eighteen, Match dot Com
was sued by the FTC the Federal Trade Commission for
creating bots that lured people into paid app upgrades. So basically,
(18:16):
these bots would match with you, start chatting with you,
and then you'd sort of onumatch dot com, you'd run
out of like the free version of the conversation, and
you'd have people would pay money to talk to these
people that didn't exist. And so if we think about
that sort of shady behavior, and that match group that
owns match dot Com, that owns Hinge, that owns tender
(18:37):
match group is above it all, the overlord, the carpet overlord.
Of course these dating apps are doing shady shit. Of course, yeah,
to make more money. And so I think it's important
to notice that, like question our beliefs about dating apps
and walk in with eyes wide open, that these are
resources that are incredibly flawed, that we don't need them
to find love in person. Dating is alive and well
(19:00):
both and if you have a strategy and a plan
and boundaries, you can walk into the dating app and
get the most out of it without becoming the victim
of their bad behavior.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Well, it's very much like social media, right. I think
we forget that these are businesses driven by how much
we're on them, So we have algorithms, we have all
of these things, those boss you're talking about. I mean,
that is scary to think about because we're so mindlessly scrolling.
So I love the idea of like taking your power
back with that. But one thing I've noticed, and I
(19:30):
don't know if any of the other single people listening
have noticed this, it's that when you're you feel like
the apps are the only way to actually meet people nowadays,
because nobody approaches anyone anymore, right, Everyone's just on their phone,
even when you're at a bar, at a restaurant. Men
used to come approach a woman. Now, I think a
lot of people, you know, I've heard a lot of
(19:52):
men say, well, I'm scared to walk up to a
woman because you know, all this patriarchy bashing and all
this stuff that we've come I have already touched on
some of those positives. Some of it had the negative
connotation too, And people have just become scared and we
don't know how to interact with each other. So what
is the solution to that?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, And I will also say, to the point about patriarchy,
it's messed us all up right, toxically sculinity makes it
very difficult for men to feel or know how to
emotionally connect for themselves or even friends, and that hurts
us all. And so I will say that including the
(20:31):
pandemic years, our social skills have eroded. I agree, and
so I think that it is a pont. I think
that I want to challenge everybody listening that being in
your main character energy means taking messy action. And so
instead of getting caught up at now, we could, you know,
talk about all day how it's more difficult to date today.
(20:53):
It is how it is. It is disappointing that if
you are a person who dates men, a lot of
men aren't doing their work, aren't doing your emotional work
to heal or emotional work. We could talk about that
all day, and I have believed me. And so this
is a both and both that is all those things
are true. Both and the right people for you are
going to make themselves apparent. The right people for you
(21:14):
are also doing their work right now. And it's imperative
for you if you want to find the best relationship
of your life, to start shooting your shot messily. Oh
love to be the person who approaches somebody else at
the bar, expecting them to co create a conversation. It's
not about, like I think a lot of people say, socially,
(21:36):
women say, I don't want to make the first move.
I want the man to make a first move because
that proves to me that they're interested in sort of
playing this game. In essence. Yeah, and I think it's
assuming that if you make the first move, then you've
already established a power dynamic and that you're now you know,
being in charge of everything and whatever. No, this is
about co creation. You can shoot your shot, go up
(21:58):
to somebody saying, hey, and the right person, the right
people are going to be so delighted that you approach them.
They're going to coke. They're going to pick up the
ball of the conversation. It'll be a hey, hey, oh
my god, I like that. Watch Oh you do I
got it here? Oh my god, I traveled there last year.
Oh really? And then the conversation blossoms. The wrong people
(22:18):
for you make you emotional wheelbarrow of the conversation. You
do way too much emotional labor. You do all the work.
That's the micromanaging overfunctioning of it all, and underfunctioning is
taking your hands completely off the wheel, saying it'll happen
when at least expected. Okay, I'm not going to try
at all and not shooting your shot at all ever, So.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Coming in the middle, yeahation, Yeah, go ahead, coming in
the middle.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Way, coming in the middle with co creation, like shooting
your shot. This is why I say, like, empower yourself
with your main character energy to shoot your shot one
hundred percent of the time. It does not mean that
somebody else might not shoot their shot first with you.
It doesn't mean that somebody else might not approach you.
They probably will both. And if you set an expectation
(23:04):
of yourself of like I take messy action, I shoot
my shot. I celebrate every win. No win is too small,
you're much more likely to meet the right people for
you in a shorter amount of time.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
The other interesting thought with that is if you go
put yourself out there. You know, I've definitely been one
of those women who's like, I don't want to approach
a guy, yeah, blah blah. What I have noticed as
I've gotten order is sometimes men need to know we're
interested too, So a slight nudge sometimes or you know,
an invitation of some sort, Like you're saying the word
(23:34):
co creation doesn't really matter who starts the conversation. Are
they showing up and matching your energy. That's where you
start to figure out if they're a good match for you. Also,
if you approach a group, think about that. Maybe the
one you approached isn't the one that's going to co
create with you, but you don't know their friends.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Not absolutely well. And this is why I love the
joy building and co conspirat or strategy in chapter seven
about dating in person with main character energy is like
the point of a dating app. When a dating app
is working, what is it doing. It's expanding your social circle,
That's what it's doing. It's expanding your social circle. And
if you go out in the world and do things
(24:13):
that bring you joy and make new friends doing those
things that bring you joy, whether that's a meetup, whether
that's a pottery class, whether that's a pub crawl, whether
that's a running club, whatever. Even if there's nobody you're
super attracted to there, if you make eye contact, if
you make new connections, new friendships, and then you ask
somebody to be your co conspiritu or in your dating life. Hey,
(24:34):
do you have somebody you could set me up with Hey,
do you know that's how your cousin's friends barber comes
to your birthday party randomly and you meet and fall
in love.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
That's how I met Chris is that I went to
an improv class when I had very few friends in
this new city. I made a friend who is now
a lifelong friend. She I moved to New York. She
introduced me to all of her friends in New York.
Her friends introduced me to their roommate, Chris, and then
I met the love of my life because I was
shooting my shot by making new friendships, expanding my social circle,
(25:06):
and meeting new people as a result.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's something else you talk about in the book is
utilizing your couple friends. Like your friends that are in
couples are not just not there. They're not just not
helpful to your dating life anymore because they're coupled. Actually,
they may end up being more helpful. Can you talk
about that a little.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Bit if you train them.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, Okay, let's get clear here.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Because a lot of coupled people are unhelpful. They forget
how hard dating is. They say unhelpful things like it
happens when you least expect it. They set you up
with people that you don't like.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Or you're single, they're single, so y'all will be a
good match, right, right?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You make you feel like the third wheel whatever.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
So it's not that everybody is perfect at being your
co conspirator. It's that some of your coupled friends want
to know how to love you better. Yeah, and just
like they asked you to be a bridesmaid in their wedding,
you get to ask them, hey, will you intentionally help
me with my dating life? And I give a whole
strategy for this in the book with direct scripts on
(26:08):
how to ask somebody to be your co conspirator, what
to ask for if they say something on my quote
oh no nos list, which is what if they say, oh,
you're being too picky, or what if they say, oh,
there's nobody in this town you need to move, or
what if they say, oh, I don't know anybody's single
to set you up. But I have like literal boundaries
that you can verbalize to them in the chapter like
(26:29):
oh no no, we're here to create creative solutions. So
that looks like your couple friends you share in the book,
I have this strategy for essence based preferences, which is
how you want to feel in the right relationship, and
qualifying disqualifying questions, which are questions that allow somebody, in
the words of doctor Maya Angelou, when somebody shows you
who they are, believed them the first time. So you
(26:50):
have your EVPs, you have your QD questions, and I
have a literal worksheet in the book, or you can
write down these things, all this info on the right
person for you, and you rip it out and you
hand it to your co conspirator and you say, look
out for this kind of person. When you see somebody single,
you need to ask them these two questions that are
deeper than the surface. You need to look out for
this and quote if this person meets this criteria and
(27:12):
makes you feel this certain way, then you set them
up with me. Two of my clients did this strategy together.
One lived in California, one lived in Texas, and the
client in Texas was in California for a work trip.
Met a man in the airport, asked him the qualifying
disqualifying questions, asked if he was single. He was cute
and adorable and answered beautifully. That client set her a
(27:35):
co conspirator up even though they didn't live in the
same state. Because she was in the airport and right place,
right time met the guy. They started dating the California
client and the guy the Texas client met at the airport.
Because the co conspirator strategy is about how you can
engage people in your life, whether they're single or coupled,
in a way where they're always looking out for you intentionally,
not just your single he said, like set it out,
(27:56):
but like intentionally, what's your plan?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Okay, you've mentioned making this list of the things though,
which would then take me back to what we've mentioned
at the beginning of the podcast about being picky. And
I think that a lot of women probably relate to
the idea of we are just not really taught to
be picky. We're actually taught that we're too picky and
that it's our own fault that we're still single. So
(28:19):
how do we let go of that narrative and how
do we embrace being picky?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Oh my god, I love this question, Kelly.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Pick.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Picky is just the word pick with a y at
the end. Yes, it's vilifying you for having once, just
like the word moody is the word mood with a y?
At the end, which is vilifying you for being a
human being who has moods, which we all do.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So true, Yes, yes, it's so true.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah. So I do think that there is such a
thing as being really rigid. Yeah, in a way that
is unhelpful, right, That's what some people say when they're
saying you're two picky. Maybe you're being really rigid, that
you shall not pass energy. The life must be this
exact type, must be, this exact job must be, this
exact salary. That rigidity is there. You're putting that rigidity
(29:08):
in place to protect you, but what it's really doing
is cutting you off from opportunities. Now, on the other
end of that rigidity is just an open minded pile
of mush. When I know somebody is an open minded
pile of mush, they're saying things to me like, I
just want somebody nice with a job. Your standards are
way too low. You're drenched and scarcity and fear, and
that's also going to mean you're too available for the
(29:29):
wrong people. So coming in the middle and being choosing,
picking your essence based preferences. Meaning it's not a rigid snapshot.
It is the living, breathing like definition of how you
want to feel in the right relationship. I think about
it like an Impressionist painting. When you look at an
impressionist painting, you can't see the clear edges, but you
(29:53):
get the sense of where they are, that they're having
a good time, how they feel, what they're up to.
You get the sense of this moment in time in
this painting. With senspased preferences, you're really choosing, Okay, what
are the values personality traits that I want. I help
you create root words to describe those value personality traits.
(30:13):
So instead of kind, funny, smart, we go even deeper
with sen space preferences and define, like, okay, what is
your definition of kind? Okay, if we do this definition
work and like really get beneath the surface, maybe your
definition of kind actually is like compassionately generous. And here's
exactly what that looks like in the real world. They
donate to these kinds of causes. They show up for
(30:35):
their friends in this specific way. They go on these
kind of trips because they care about, you know, the environment,
or they care about different cultures. They tip generously every
time they go out. They ask good questions across the
table and they're really curious and they're deeply listening, compassionately
curious or something. I don't remember exactly what root word
(30:57):
I said, but like creating your own root word and
your unique definitions is what essence based preferences are, and
it allows you to know what you want with specificity,
but also be open to being surprised by the right person.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Right, So you're really defining your value system, is what
I hear. Yes, And when you get so specific, I
think that's so smart because, first of all, for yourself,
I think when we say the things that we want
in my life, at least the universe has provided it.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
It's like, when I get really clear with myself that
this is something that I truly want and if it's
truly in alignment, the second I embrace that desire, it
becomes true in my life in some capacity. But what
you're saying about the writing it down, getting really clear
with yourself, the next step is also then you can
tell other people this is what that means to me,
(31:50):
Like my definition of kind and your definition of kind
might be two totally different things. So no wonder we're
getting set up on these mismatched dates.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Absolutely, and I do think in terms of there are
sort of two buckets of sn space preferences. There's the
personality traits and values, which you know, mine when I
was dating was resilient and I had my own definition
for that. After I exited that toxic relationship, I created
my own essen space preferences that magnetized Chris to me
and made it so that I was open to being
(32:20):
surprised by him. I don't know that I would have,
you know, necessarily swiped right if I had just met
him on a dating app without doing this work. I
think that I was limiting myself with my rigidity and fear,
and so mine were like joyfully resilient. I'd write them
down in the book joyfully nerdy and and I'm forgetting
(32:43):
the third, but I write them down in the book
in the essen Space preference chapter to give an example
of how these sort of come to life. And so
that's one bucket. The other bucket is logistics. So like age, height, location,
blah blah blah, you get to want what you want.
So when somebody says I want this age range, I
say cool. The essence based lens on that age range
(33:06):
is how do you hope somebody in this age range
makes you feel well. I want to feel intellectually met
and matched. I want to feel like we have similar
similar we're a similar place in life. I'm sorry about
all the Brooklyn noise, Kelly, We're just in the thick
of it that we're in the thick of the city
for age. A lot of people will say I want
(33:27):
to share references. I want to be able to pick
up and I say, great. Is it possible that you've
met somebody before who meets how you want to feel,
but is maybe outside of that range plus or minus?
Their answer is generally yes. So that's how you can
be open to being surprised by the right person and
know what you want by knowing how you want to.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Feel, because then you can see also where you're being
rigid and you might not have even realized that. Like,
it just gives you more flexibility.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yes, and it's also a tool to shed any shoulds
that you have inherited from your family or friends taught
you you should want Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yes, yes, Well I mentioned the universe. And one of
the things I've always loved about the work that you
do is the thank you more please challenge. I have
to tell you since the last podcast. I do this
in my life all the time. I think about you
all the time because every single time something good happens
or something that just feels good to me that I
find myself being like, oh, I'm just so grateful for this,
(34:25):
I just say to like, I put my hand on
my heart and I close my eyes and I go,
thank you more.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Please.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Tell the listeners about this. If you miss the last podcast,
go back and listen as well. But yes, break down
the thank you more Please challenge. I know it went
viral on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
It did, and it inspired the title of my book,
thank You More Please. So thank You More Please is
an actionable way to build hope every single day in
your life and especially in your love life, especially if
you feel hopeless right now and you're feeling what you
want doesn't exist. Thank You More Please is a really
practical way to manifest what you want with a strategy.
(34:59):
So it is based in science. It's based in this
thing called the batter Mindhoff phenomenon or red car theory,
and it is, you know, a phenomenon where what we
pay attention to magnifies in our reality. Right So, when
we're shopping for a red car. We go out and
then we see red cars all over the place where, yeah, everywhere,
(35:21):
because you're paying attention more. So, it's not that what
you want doesn't exist. It's not that evidence doesn't exist
that good things are happening, or evidence doesn't exist that
the kind of men if you date men that you
want to date exist. It's that you're not necessarily paying attention.
Why because your brain is probably in confirmation bias mode
and recency bias from the past bad dating experiences that
(35:44):
you've had, trying to protect itself from future rejection by
assuming that everything's going to be crappy, just like it
has been in the past.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
You taught me that last podcast because you said, we
go look, we go looking for anything to make our
brain right. So we're thinking all men say, all men sucks. Yes,
it keeps us safe. So it's like a protective thing.
So if all men suck, we go out and of
course we're going to see the men acting shitty. That's
just what happens.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
And I have more of that because not absolutely and
this is this is by the way, Jesus, Oh, this
is by the way, not to gaslight you into not
acknowledging the hard experiences that you've had.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It's a both, and it's a both end of like, yes,
I've experienced a lot of people who are wrong for me.
Both and let me go out in the world and
look for tiny, tiny slivers of evidence that what I
want exists. A cut exiting a therapy office, you have
a flirty conversation with your barista. You say thank you
more please, out loud to let your brain and body know, hey,
(36:48):
I'm paying attention to sort of reward yourself with that
thank you more please statement, to reward yourself for seeing
that evidence exists. That's something interesting that you exists, and
maybe there's more of it. So when I was really
struggling in my business a few years ago, I felt
kind of like Oliver Twist. I was like, please, sir,
(37:08):
I want some more. I felt so desperate and sad,
and I thought, that's not the energy that I want
to be in. That's I love gratitude, and I obviously
it's a life changing practice that's not revolutionary for me
to say by any means, But gratitude felt like stagnant
for me in a way when I wanted more of
(37:30):
something good. So I just was playing with this idea
of like thank you, with the gratitude and more please,
this audaciousness to ask for more in our lives, and
it became this revolutionary force that magnetized more good things
to me and helped me be even more grateful for
what I did have and helped me get even more
of what I wanted in my business, in my life
(37:50):
and my love life, and my clients have used it
to attract the most incredible dates, the most incredible jobs,
the most incredible everything, because it's a fun way to
prove to yourself that what you want exists. In doing so,
proving to yourself that your desire gets to be evidence
that what you want.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Exists, what you want exists, and also that you are
worth it. Because that's the thing that it makes me
feel when I say more please, like you said, having
the audacity even to ask for more in a moment
of good. Sometimes I think that's been a tricky one
for me, And I don't know if that's southernness or
woman knows.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Oh, Kelly, that's a very Southern thing, Like you should
be grateful, be grateful for what you.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Have there you ask for more, But it's communication with
me and whatever you believe in, if it's God, if
it's the universe, if it's spirit guides your higher power
of any kind, it's like, I see you, I see
what you just provided me, and I believe that this
is where I'm supposed to be going. This is what
my life is supposed to look like. Of course, we
all have hardships, but I don't believe in like a
(38:57):
punishing God or anything like that, you know. So it's
just a beautiful communication of yes, and let's like give
me more. I love this. It's so good. I am
worthy of that. I just I really implore you guys
to try that. It's all in the book. The book, again,
as we have said, is called Thank You More Please,
and it is out now.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
This is so exciting.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Now, I'm so.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Excited for people to read it. It is such a
I'm being told, you know, the producers in my ears
saying it's a joyful read. No, it's like people are
saying that it's a quick read. A lot of people
are dming me saying I read it in twenty four
hours because it was just like really fun and funny
and also provides such tangible, tactical dating advice. That will
(39:38):
feel like a big hug and an exhale all at once.
You're going to release so much of the dating pressure
and stress that you have learned over the past few
years or decades, depending on how long you've been dating,
whether you have just gotten divorced or you are a
late blimmer and have never dated. This book is going
to give you such practical guidance to meeting the love
of your life with a joyful dating life.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I love a tangible tip. The listeners know that I'm
always like, what is a tangible tip that we can
do here? And this book does provide a ton of those.
We've mentioned a lot of them in the podcast, but
you guys go check it out. There's also a journal
that goes with this, so you can be taking your
notes making your list while you're reading the book. So
I'll put both of those in the description of this podcast, Lily.
If people want to keep up with you and your
(40:21):
work other than this book, where will they find you?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
You can find me at the Date Brazen podcast All
the Time go binge my feminist dating advice. You can
also learn how to work with me at datefrazen dot
com and I'm on TikTok and Instagram at date brazen
da t e b r A z e en.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I will put all of that in a description again
of this podcast for you guys. Thank you so much
for being here again, Lily, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Kelly, and I also want to mention the audiobook I
recorded it It's Fire, so people can walk and listen
if they want that audiobook in their ears. I can't
wait to support them with this book. And thank you
for having me on again.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Oh my god, of course you guys go checkout Lily's work.
Thank you more, please, and thank you again for being here.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Thanks for listening to the Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,
where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a
little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty,
and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.
Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's The Velvet's
Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Feminist dating coach and a founder of Date Brazen. Lily
Womble is back. Hi Lily, Hi Kelly. I'm so glad
to have you back. I know your book is officially out.
Thank you. More pleasing She's born, She's.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Born in the world. It's been four years.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
How did it feel to be the mother of a
book and have a book out there?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Oh? My god? Well, I worry about her all the time. No, though,
that is more truth than I would like to. Yeah, admit,
but no, I'm just really grateful. I think that it's
been you know, writing a book with such a an
insular process, with my small team and my publisher who
(00:49):
were so great, Legacy Lit. But I was so grateful
that people are reading it and loving it, and it's
so gratifying to hear people's thoughts and affirmation that this
does resid and then it's fun and hilarious and like
a page turner. Like that's just makes me so so
freaking happy.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, I think everyone can relate to struggles and dating
right like that is a pretty common theme amongst all
of the conversations I have in my friend groups, at work,
just everywhere. And I know the last time you were
here we talked about your experience you were a matchmaker
for many years and then finding yourself still in toxic
situationships in your personal life, and you're like, wait, I
(01:29):
gotta get a hold of this. So can you kind
of catch the listeners up to date if they did
not hear that podcast of just your story of getting
into being a dating coach by founding Date Brazen and
then also finding the love of your life.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh my god, Yes, of course, So I loved our
past episode and if anybody again hasn't listened, a little
bit of backstory for me. I grew up in the
Deep South, where I saw that a woman's worth was
so deeply tied to her relationship status with assist gender
man saw that coupled women were treated as a head
quote unquote of single women, and that I also was
(02:07):
labeled from a very young age is like too much,
you know, too sensitive to bossing two intents, which I
think so many women, especially from the South or more
conservative cultures, can relate to this idea of like having
me needs having a personality, having a lot of opinions
is not necessarily looked at as a positive thing if
you're a woman or a girl. And so I entered
(02:30):
my adulthood. I was I worked in the nonprofit world
for feminist nonprofits that were supporting the well being of
women and girls. And when I burnt out of nonprofit life,
I moved to New York. I was living my dreams
of you know, trying to make it in theater and
auditioning and had fifty survival jobs. And one of those
(02:52):
survival jobs ended up randomly being at a matchmaking firm.
So I, a friend of mine worked for them. They
were hiring more employees. I applied. I thought, that's hilarious.
I'm a late bloomer. I'm a late bloomer who's too much.
Who's I'm going to give dating advice? Lol? But I
realized in becoming a matchmaker and then becoming the third
(03:14):
most successful out of one hundred and sixty at that
firm over the next couple of years, is that dating
was a microcosm of our well being. It was a
microcosm of every hope, joy, dream, fear, insecurity, desire that
we had. And so I could help women be well,
if I could help them with their dating lives. But
the problem was that my dating life was a dumpster fire.
I was, as I mentioned, a late bloomer. I didn't
(03:38):
have sex until I was in my mid twenties. I
felt eternally behind, and I landed in this really toxic
relationship with somebody who was good on paper but didn't
meet any of my needs. Yeah, and once I found
the courage after a lot longer than I wanted to
be in that relationship, I stayed for a lot longer
than I would have liked. I think because I was
(03:59):
so scared that I was too much. I found the
courage to leave that person with the help of my therapist.
But then I was like, now, what, how do I
never settle again? Because my therapist hasn't dated in thirty years,
she's been married for thirty years. My friends just tell
me to swipe more good on another dating app. Matchmaking
is a first date level solution, and that's not going
(04:20):
to work. And I'm not going to use a dating
app all the time because I know that that's just
a tool. It's a very flawed tool. So I started
building my own solution, and I started getting beneath the
surface of my checklist, the good on paper matches, and like,
how do I really want to feel with the right person?
What are my sence based preferences? And I learned the
skill of self compassion, and I became my first client,
(04:41):
and I then had fun in my dating life. I
felt free in my dating life, and I eventually met
the love of my life through a strategy that I
now teach called joy building, where you literally just go
make new connections, expand your social circle, and ask people
to set you up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And yeah, we are going to get into the details
of that because I think the listeners are probably going
to want to know exactly what your method is here. Yeah,
that's what we all want, right this joy based dating
and to have fun. I know so many of my friends,
the conversations that we have are just how terrible dating is,
and I think a lot of that is because of
(05:19):
the way our society is set up. You refer to
yourself as a feminist dating coach. Yeah, it's you know,
feminism is a real kind of trigger word for a
lot of people these days. But explain to the listeners
what you mean by being a feminist dating coach.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, so feminism to me, and the definition is the
equality of all people, you know, and and there have
been a lot of systems and structures and rules put
in place that make it so that men have more
power than women. I mean, if we just look at uh,
the uh you know, the pay pay gap and uh
(05:55):
and so many other pointers towards the fact that our
world is not equal in any measure yet. And so
feminism is the equality of all people. Intersectional feminism is
a term coined by doctor Kimberly Crenshaw that simply means that, like,
everything is connected, and the way that we do one
(06:17):
thing is though we do everything. I think that different
forms of oppression like patriarchy that says men have power
women shouldn't have power, forms of oppression like white supremacy
and homophobia, transphobia, they all work together to make our
culture very difficult, especially for people who hold marginalized identities.
(06:38):
And I, as a woman growing up in the world,
saw how you know, this hot soup of culture led
to me shrinking all the time in my dating life,
right Like, I was afraid to ask for what I
wanted because I was afraid that I would rock the
boat or that a man would tell me no, or
(06:59):
that I would be shamed or blamed for wanting what
I wanted, which was true. I mean, like I experienced
dating men who were absolutely wrong for me, who made
me feel bad for wanting what I wanted, and I
would have no more of that, you know. So feminist
dating specifically is how can I give myself permission to
want what I want? How can I surround myself with
(07:22):
people who believe that I get to take up space,
who don't shame me for asking for what I want?
And how can I also empower other people to ask
for what they want? Right? That, Like, the way we
do one thing is the way we do everything. So
if I can help people take up more space with
their desires and their love life, then that gets to
spread throughout their whole lives. So that's why I think
(07:44):
feminist dating is about agency. It's about it's about confidence
in who you are and what you desire. It's about
attracting an equal partner, whether you date men or women
or human beings, just attracting an equal partner is what
feminist dating is about. And it's about believing your worthiness
(08:05):
along the way instead of believing that you're behind for
being single.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, it's so interesting for me. And I don't know
if you relate to this at all, but the full
idea of the patriarchy kind of took me a second,
if I'm being really honest, to identify my part in it,
Like I couldn't fully see how it had played out
in my life definitively. And you know, there's a lot
of like people want to blame men, and I really
(08:32):
don't even know if it's a man's fault. It's just
it's sort of just the way our society was set up.
And until I was reading some of your book, I
was like, I've never even thought about how a lot
of these narratives have played out in my life because
they're just so ingrained. When you're talking about well, I
was just going to say, when you're talking about the
dating stuff. The one of the things you talk about
(08:53):
a lot in the book is as women, we're told like,
don't be too picky, and like it's our fault that
we haven't found and the partner of our dreams. And
you just said something about learning how to take up
space and asking yourself like what do I really want?
And it sounds so simple, but I think for so
many women, especially in the South, Like you said, we
(09:14):
are not taught that. We're just taught find a partner
and get married, not necessarily how to find a partner
that we can find joy with, that we that truly
is the right match for us, right where we can
land and be ourselves.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, and if we're really going there, Kelly, I mean,
it wasn't for me. It wasn't just find a partner
to settle down with. It was find a good man
to settle down with, right. And I think that that
was that cultural narrative and the latent homophobia or explicit
homophobia I experienced from a young age in school. When
a kid was to be thought gay in school, they
(09:51):
would be ostracized and made fun of and bullied. Even
I mean I was going to school in the early
two thousands, it wasn't like a very it wasn't a
very inclusive environment or welcoming environment for people who were
different than the straight, you know, heteronormative standard. So that's
why I didn't realize I was or come out as
bisexual to myself until I was in my mid twenties.
(10:15):
And I write about that in the book too, that
like you know, these these narratives that I was taught
that we all were taught of, like settle down with
a nice man, because that represents safety, that represents societal
your normal. You know that thing's wrong with you? Success? Right,
All these things lead this lead to this really hot
soup of pressure that a lot of people experience. And
(10:39):
they come to me saying like, I just want to
find a partner. I want to find a partner, but
I'm too late and I don't know how to do it.
And we have to really separate out what is your
desire for the right partner, what is the patriarchal conditioning
making you feel so anxious and scarce? And how can
we come into The book is really about how can
you come into your most joyful day eating life possible
(11:01):
on your terms, stripping away all of the rules that
you were taught that don't serve you.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Well, you've mentioned the word anxiety. Anxious, like frantic is
kind of the just that when you're talking about some
of your clients coming in and you talk about this
in the book, but you have some anxiety relieving dating advice.
So can you tell us everything we can already?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Yeah, curl ups, come close, Come close. You can't say
the wrong thing to the right person.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Say that one again, because it's so damn good.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
You cannot say the wrong thing to the right person. Yes,
so this idea of I hear so many people saying,
did I break up with the right person? Did I
just screw up my chances of finding love because I
set a boundary? And maybe I shouldn't have because who
(11:53):
am I to say? No? He was nice enough, she
was nice enough. Whatever. You can't set the wrong thing
to the right person. I can't say the wrong thing
to the right person. So like, if you feel the
need to bless and release, odds are if that person
probably wasn't your person.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Uh you ask me bless and release? You just breezed
over that real fast.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, but it is. What does it mean? It means
acknowledging what you want. That's the blessed part, right, acknowledging
like okay, or acknowledging the effort if it was a
positive interaction. Nothing was like quote wrong, but it just
doesn't feel right long term. Bless it, you know, okay,
then release it. It's sort of like like imagining releasing
(12:33):
a fish back into the water, like releasing them to
find what's best for them. Blessing your own desires and
releasing yourself of the need to caregive for another person
who is wrong for you, so so bless and release
is another piece of anxiety. Were leaving dating advice, but
about the you can't say the wrong thing to the
right person if you're freaking out about I asked them
(12:54):
out too early and they think I'm weird or oh
my god, I just asked that question. I asked them
to be exclusive, and and what if they thought that
was weird? What if they thought that was too much?
You can't say the wrong thing to the right person, Kelly,
I talked about my ex for thirty minutes on my
first date with my now husband. Would not recommend it,
would not recommend it for anyone, but I was still healing.
(13:16):
I was seeing a therapist, but it came up and
Chris made me feel so loved and seen and held
in that moment, and then so I couldn't say the
wrong thing to the right person. And then Chris a
couple months later was like, Hey, Lily, could be not
talk about your ex because I'm a verbal processor and
I was just like vomiting verbally, vomiting all these things
(13:36):
and healing from my last toxic relationship before Chris. He's like, hey, Lily,
can you talk about that with your friends or therapists?
Like I don't. I want to focus on us, so
the right person will also be able to set boundaries
for themselves. You don't have to caregive for them all
the time. You just got to listen and respond and
be a human being in partnership with another person. When
(13:57):
it's right, that's what it will feel like. Is that easeful?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
It's like that. I think it's a Buddhist principle, but
you can't mess up anything meant for you. That has
been such a relief to me in life because I
just like everything you're describing. We overthink everything, and specifically
in dating, right, because I think a lot of us
just want to get it quote unquote right yep. And
you want to find love and you want to find
a partner, and of course we all want the fairy
(14:20):
tale that's painted. But the reality is is that that
takes a lot of practice and maybe a lot of
missus before you find that. So it's been so relieving
to me to really adopt that. I love that idea.
Let's talk about dating apps, because I think that's the
way that most people are finding relationships or finding go
(14:44):
you know, finding new people to go on dates with.
And you actually say that they are a scam.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
So just to put that out, let's put it out there. Okay,
So let's unpack this now.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Okay, let's do it.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I do think in the book, I have two chapters
devoted to my feminist takedown of dating apps, which I'm
going to spill the details here. Both and I do
teach you and in person dating strategy. It's chapter seven
Dating in Person with main character Energy. So and I
teach you how to become the CEO of a dating
app if you want to use one. So I lay
(15:18):
out all the details of like why they're a scam,
and you get an in person plan and you get
the like, if you want to use this resource, here's
how to do it with the most power possible, sort
of gaming the dating apps and taking back the control.
So why do I say that dating apps are a scam?
Why do you think? Let's examine what we believe about
(15:40):
the popular consciousness will tell us about dating apps. Right,
what comes to mind for me is that they're like
the best solution.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Well, sure, and best answer, that's what I would have said.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Why do we believe that? I think because you know,
if they've increased our access to dates and whatever, they
have been a resource both and they have so much
more money being poured into marketing over the last twelve
years we have experienced and enormally I don't have the
exact number, but it's multimillion, if not billions of dollars
in dating app marketing geared towards people exactly our age
(16:14):
with messages like hinge proposes, which is designed to be deleted,
what is that marketing message doing. It's telling us we're safe,
come come, come play, come play with us, Come download
our app because we're on your side. We want you
to download it, to delete it. But then then like
strip back another layer. There are publicly traded companies and
(16:36):
publicly traded companies their their main objective is to make
money for their shareholders and to increase profitability or revenue
in every single quarter. And how do they do that
by creating more more addictive dating app features, by by
creating a culture in which dating apps are looked at
(16:56):
as the quote only answer right, even when the data
from Pew Research in twenty twenty three found that only
twelve to twenty four percent of people in committed partnerships
met with a dating app.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Wait solve to twenty three Is.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
That twenty four percent?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah? Four percent? Okay, yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:13):
And that data that number ranges from like twelve percent.
The lowest percent are people older than thirty. And also
people who are LGB, lesbian, gay, bisexual have a higher
percentage of meeting partners on dating apps for a couple
different reasons.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I think one being physical safety, right that, like a
lot of places are not physically safe actually to date
in person, and so dating apps have become an important
resource to build community and romantic relationships for a lot
of folks. But anyway, so I digress, like we believe
the dating apps are the only answer because of their
marketing messages. It's not actually a dating apps to make
(17:52):
anything easier. They actually are incredibly addictive. Their job is
to make money for their shareholders, and I think that's
why it's important to walk in with eyes wide open.
I also want a reference in twenty eighteen, this is
just one of several examples. Twenty eighteen, Match dot Com
was sued by the FTC the Federal Trade Commission for
creating bots that lured people into paid app upgrades. So basically,
(18:16):
these bots would match with you, start chatting with you,
and then you'd sort of onumatch dot com, you'd run
out of like the free version of the conversation, and
you'd have people would pay money to talk to these
people that didn't exist. And so if we think about
that sort of shady behavior, and that match group that
owns match dot Com, that owns Hinge, that owns tender
(18:37):
match group is above it all, the overlord, the carpet overlord.
Of course these dating apps are doing shady shit. Of course, yeah,
to make more money. And so I think it's important
to notice that, like question our beliefs about dating apps
and walk in with eyes wide open, that these are
resources that are incredibly flawed, that we don't need them
to find love in person. Dating is alive and well
(19:00):
both and if you have a strategy and a plan
and boundaries, you can walk into the dating app and
get the most out of it without becoming the victim
of their bad behavior.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Well, it's very much like social media, right. I think
we forget that these are businesses driven by how much
we're on them, So we have algorithms, we have all
of these things, those boss you're talking about. I mean,
that is scary to think about because we're so mindlessly scrolling.
So I love the idea of like taking your power
back with that. But one thing I've noticed, and I
(19:30):
don't know if any of the other single people listening
have noticed this, it's that when you're you feel like
the apps are the only way to actually meet people nowadays,
because nobody approaches anyone anymore, right, Everyone's just on their phone,
even when you're at a bar, at a restaurant. Men
used to come approach a woman. Now, I think a
lot of people, you know, I've heard a lot of
(19:52):
men say, well, I'm scared to walk up to a
woman because you know, all this patriarchy bashing and all
this stuff that we've come I have already touched on
some of those positives. Some of it had the negative
connotation too, And people have just become scared and we
don't know how to interact with each other. So what
is the solution to that?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, And I will also say, to the point about patriarchy,
it's messed us all up right, toxically sculinity makes it
very difficult for men to feel or know how to
emotionally connect for themselves or even friends, and that hurts
us all. And so I will say that including the
(20:31):
pandemic years, our social skills have eroded. I agree, and
so I think that it is a pont. I think
that I want to challenge everybody listening that being in
your main character energy means taking messy action. And so
instead of getting caught up at now, we could, you know,
talk about all day how it's more difficult to date today.
(20:53):
It is how it is. It is disappointing that if
you are a person who dates men, a lot of
men aren't doing their work, aren't doing your emotional work
to heal or emotional work. We could talk about that
all day, and I have believed me. And so this
is a both and both that is all those things
are true. Both and the right people for you are
going to make themselves apparent. The right people for you
(21:14):
are also doing their work right now. And it's imperative
for you if you want to find the best relationship
of your life, to start shooting your shot messily. Oh
love to be the person who approaches somebody else at
the bar, expecting them to co create a conversation. It's
not about, like I think a lot of people say, socially,
(21:36):
women say, I don't want to make the first move.
I want the man to make a first move because
that proves to me that they're interested in sort of
playing this game. In essence. Yeah, and I think it's
assuming that if you make the first move, then you've
already established a power dynamic and that you're now you know,
being in charge of everything and whatever. No, this is
about co creation. You can shoot your shot, go up
(21:58):
to somebody saying, hey, and the right person, the right
people are going to be so delighted that you approach them.
They're going to coke. They're going to pick up the
ball of the conversation. It'll be a hey, hey, oh
my god, I like that. Watch Oh you do I
got it here? Oh my god, I traveled there last year.
Oh really? And then the conversation blossoms. The wrong people
(22:18):
for you make you emotional wheelbarrow of the conversation. You
do way too much emotional labor. You do all the work.
That's the micromanaging overfunctioning of it all, and underfunctioning is
taking your hands completely off the wheel, saying it'll happen
when at least expected. Okay, I'm not going to try
at all and not shooting your shot at all ever, So.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Coming in the middle, yeahation, Yeah, go ahead, coming in
the middle.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Way, coming in the middle with co creation, like shooting
your shot. This is why I say, like, empower yourself
with your main character energy to shoot your shot one
hundred percent of the time. It does not mean that
somebody else might not shoot their shot first with you.
It doesn't mean that somebody else might not approach you.
They probably will both. And if you set an expectation
(23:04):
of yourself of like I take messy action, I shoot
my shot. I celebrate every win. No win is too small,
you're much more likely to meet the right people for
you in a shorter amount of time.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
The other interesting thought with that is if you go
put yourself out there. You know, I've definitely been one
of those women who's like, I don't want to approach
a guy, yeah, blah blah. What I have noticed as
I've gotten order is sometimes men need to know we're
interested too, So a slight nudge sometimes or you know,
an invitation of some sort, Like you're saying the word
(23:34):
co creation doesn't really matter who starts the conversation. Are
they showing up and matching your energy. That's where you
start to figure out if they're a good match for you. Also,
if you approach a group, think about that. Maybe the
one you approached isn't the one that's going to co
create with you, but you don't know their friends.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Not absolutely well. And this is why I love the
joy building and co conspirat or strategy in chapter seven
about dating in person with main character energy is like
the point of a dating app. When a dating app
is working, what is it doing. It's expanding your social circle,
That's what it's doing. It's expanding your social circle. And
if you go out in the world and do things
(24:13):
that bring you joy and make new friends doing those
things that bring you joy, whether that's a meetup, whether
that's a pottery class, whether that's a pub crawl, whether
that's a running club, whatever. Even if there's nobody you're
super attracted to there, if you make eye contact, if
you make new connections, new friendships, and then you ask
somebody to be your co conspiritu or in your dating life. Hey,
(24:34):
do you have somebody you could set me up with Hey,
do you know that's how your cousin's friends barber comes
to your birthday party randomly and you meet and fall
in love.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
That's how I met Chris is that I went to
an improv class when I had very few friends in
this new city. I made a friend who is now
a lifelong friend. She I moved to New York. She
introduced me to all of her friends in New York.
Her friends introduced me to their roommate, Chris, and then
I met the love of my life because I was
shooting my shot by making new friendships, expanding my social circle,
(25:06):
and meeting new people as a result.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's something else you talk about in the book is
utilizing your couple friends. Like your friends that are in
couples are not just not there. They're not just not
helpful to your dating life anymore because they're coupled. Actually,
they may end up being more helpful. Can you talk
about that a little.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Bit if you train them.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, Okay, let's get clear here.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Because a lot of coupled people are unhelpful. They forget
how hard dating is. They say unhelpful things like it
happens when you least expect it. They set you up
with people that you don't like.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Or you're single, they're single, so y'all will be a
good match, right, right?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You make you feel like the third wheel whatever.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
So it's not that everybody is perfect at being your
co conspirator. It's that some of your coupled friends want
to know how to love you better. Yeah, and just
like they asked you to be a bridesmaid in their wedding,
you get to ask them, hey, will you intentionally help
me with my dating life? And I give a whole
strategy for this in the book with direct scripts on
(26:08):
how to ask somebody to be your co conspirator, what
to ask for if they say something on my quote
oh no nos list, which is what if they say, oh,
you're being too picky, or what if they say, oh,
there's nobody in this town you need to move, or
what if they say, oh, I don't know anybody's single
to set you up. But I have like literal boundaries
that you can verbalize to them in the chapter like
(26:29):
oh no no, we're here to create creative solutions. So
that looks like your couple friends you share in the book,
I have this strategy for essence based preferences, which is
how you want to feel in the right relationship, and
qualifying disqualifying questions, which are questions that allow somebody, in
the words of doctor Maya Angelou, when somebody shows you
who they are, believed them the first time. So you
(26:50):
have your EVPs, you have your QD questions, and I
have a literal worksheet in the book, or you can
write down these things, all this info on the right
person for you, and you rip it out and you
hand it to your co conspirator and you say, look
out for this kind of person. When you see somebody single,
you need to ask them these two questions that are
deeper than the surface. You need to look out for
this and quote if this person meets this criteria and
(27:12):
makes you feel this certain way, then you set them
up with me. Two of my clients did this strategy together.
One lived in California, one lived in Texas, and the
client in Texas was in California for a work trip.
Met a man in the airport, asked him the qualifying
disqualifying questions, asked if he was single. He was cute
and adorable and answered beautifully. That client set her a
(27:35):
co conspirator up even though they didn't live in the
same state. Because she was in the airport and right place,
right time met the guy. They started dating the California
client and the guy the Texas client met at the airport.
Because the co conspirator strategy is about how you can
engage people in your life, whether they're single or coupled,
in a way where they're always looking out for you intentionally,
not just your single he said, like set it out,
(27:56):
but like intentionally, what's your plan?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Okay, you've mentioned making this list of the things though,
which would then take me back to what we've mentioned
at the beginning of the podcast about being picky. And
I think that a lot of women probably relate to
the idea of we are just not really taught to
be picky. We're actually taught that we're too picky and
that it's our own fault that we're still single. So
(28:19):
how do we let go of that narrative and how
do we embrace being picky?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Oh my god, I love this question, Kelly.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Pick.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Picky is just the word pick with a y at
the end. Yes, it's vilifying you for having once, just
like the word moody is the word mood with a y?
At the end, which is vilifying you for being a
human being who has moods, which we all do.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So true, Yes, yes, it's so true.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah. So I do think that there is such a
thing as being really rigid. Yeah, in a way that
is unhelpful, right, That's what some people say when they're
saying you're two picky. Maybe you're being really rigid, that
you shall not pass energy. The life must be this
exact type, must be, this exact job must be, this
exact salary. That rigidity is there. You're putting that rigidity
(29:08):
in place to protect you, but what it's really doing
is cutting you off from opportunities. Now, on the other
end of that rigidity is just an open minded pile
of mush. When I know somebody is an open minded
pile of mush, they're saying things to me like, I
just want somebody nice with a job. Your standards are
way too low. You're drenched and scarcity and fear, and
that's also going to mean you're too available for the
(29:29):
wrong people. So coming in the middle and being choosing,
picking your essence based preferences. Meaning it's not a rigid snapshot.
It is the living, breathing like definition of how you
want to feel in the right relationship. I think about
it like an Impressionist painting. When you look at an
impressionist painting, you can't see the clear edges, but you
(29:53):
get the sense of where they are, that they're having
a good time, how they feel, what they're up to.
You get the sense of this moment in time in
this painting. With senspased preferences, you're really choosing, Okay, what
are the values personality traits that I want. I help
you create root words to describe those value personality traits.
(30:13):
So instead of kind, funny, smart, we go even deeper
with sen space preferences and define, like, okay, what is
your definition of kind? Okay, if we do this definition
work and like really get beneath the surface, maybe your
definition of kind actually is like compassionately generous. And here's
exactly what that looks like in the real world. They
donate to these kinds of causes. They show up for
(30:35):
their friends in this specific way. They go on these
kind of trips because they care about, you know, the environment,
or they care about different cultures. They tip generously every
time they go out. They ask good questions across the
table and they're really curious and they're deeply listening, compassionately
curious or something. I don't remember exactly what root word
(30:57):
I said, but like creating your own root word and
your unique definitions is what essence based preferences are, and
it allows you to know what you want with specificity,
but also be open to being surprised by the right person.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Right, So you're really defining your value system, is what
I hear. Yes, And when you get so specific, I
think that's so smart because, first of all, for yourself,
I think when we say the things that we want
in my life, at least the universe has provided it.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
It's like, when I get really clear with myself that
this is something that I truly want and if it's
truly in alignment, the second I embrace that desire, it
becomes true in my life in some capacity. But what
you're saying about the writing it down, getting really clear
with yourself, the next step is also then you can
tell other people this is what that means to me,
(31:50):
Like my definition of kind and your definition of kind
might be two totally different things. So no wonder we're
getting set up on these mismatched dates.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Absolutely, and I do think in terms of there are
sort of two buckets of sn space preferences. There's the
personality traits and values, which you know, mine when I
was dating was resilient and I had my own definition
for that. After I exited that toxic relationship, I created
my own essen space preferences that magnetized Chris to me
and made it so that I was open to being
(32:20):
surprised by him. I don't know that I would have,
you know, necessarily swiped right if I had just met
him on a dating app without doing this work. I
think that I was limiting myself with my rigidity and fear,
and so mine were like joyfully resilient. I'd write them
down in the book joyfully nerdy and and I'm forgetting
(32:43):
the third, but I write them down in the book
in the essen Space preference chapter to give an example
of how these sort of come to life. And so
that's one bucket. The other bucket is logistics. So like age, height, location,
blah blah blah, you get to want what you want.
So when somebody says I want this age range, I
say cool. The essence based lens on that age range
(33:06):
is how do you hope somebody in this age range
makes you feel well. I want to feel intellectually met
and matched. I want to feel like we have similar
similar we're a similar place in life. I'm sorry about
all the Brooklyn noise, Kelly, We're just in the thick
of it that we're in the thick of the city
for age. A lot of people will say I want
(33:27):
to share references. I want to be able to pick
up and I say, great. Is it possible that you've
met somebody before who meets how you want to feel,
but is maybe outside of that range plus or minus?
Their answer is generally yes. So that's how you can
be open to being surprised by the right person and
know what you want by knowing how you want to.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Feel, because then you can see also where you're being
rigid and you might not have even realized that. Like,
it just gives you more flexibility.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yes, and it's also a tool to shed any shoulds
that you have inherited from your family or friends taught
you you should want Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yes, yes, Well I mentioned the universe. And one of
the things I've always loved about the work that you
do is the thank you more please challenge. I have
to tell you since the last podcast. I do this
in my life all the time. I think about you
all the time because every single time something good happens
or something that just feels good to me that I
find myself being like, oh, I'm just so grateful for this,
(34:25):
I just say to like, I put my hand on
my heart and I close my eyes and I go,
thank you more.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Please.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Tell the listeners about this. If you miss the last podcast,
go back and listen as well. But yes, break down
the thank you more Please challenge. I know it went
viral on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
It did, and it inspired the title of my book,
thank You More Please. So thank You More Please is
an actionable way to build hope every single day in
your life and especially in your love life, especially if
you feel hopeless right now and you're feeling what you
want doesn't exist. Thank You More Please is a really
practical way to manifest what you want with a strategy.
(34:59):
So it is based in science. It's based in this
thing called the batter Mindhoff phenomenon or red car theory,
and it is, you know, a phenomenon where what we
pay attention to magnifies in our reality. Right So, when
we're shopping for a red car. We go out and
then we see red cars all over the place where, yeah, everywhere,
(35:21):
because you're paying attention more. So, it's not that what
you want doesn't exist. It's not that evidence doesn't exist
that good things are happening, or evidence doesn't exist that
the kind of men if you date men that you
want to date exist. It's that you're not necessarily paying attention.
Why because your brain is probably in confirmation bias mode
and recency bias from the past bad dating experiences that
(35:44):
you've had, trying to protect itself from future rejection by
assuming that everything's going to be crappy, just like it
has been in the past.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
You taught me that last podcast because you said, we
go look, we go looking for anything to make our
brain right. So we're thinking all men say, all men sucks. Yes,
it keeps us safe. So it's like a protective thing.
So if all men suck, we go out and of
course we're going to see the men acting shitty. That's
just what happens.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
And I have more of that because not absolutely and
this is this is by the way, Jesus, Oh, this
is by the way, not to gaslight you into not
acknowledging the hard experiences that you've had.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It's a both, and it's a both end of like, yes,
I've experienced a lot of people who are wrong for me.
Both and let me go out in the world and
look for tiny, tiny slivers of evidence that what I
want exists. A cut exiting a therapy office, you have
a flirty conversation with your barista. You say thank you
more please, out loud to let your brain and body know, hey,
(36:48):
I'm paying attention to sort of reward yourself with that
thank you more please statement, to reward yourself for seeing
that evidence exists. That's something interesting that you exists, and
maybe there's more of it. So when I was really
struggling in my business a few years ago, I felt
kind of like Oliver Twist. I was like, please, sir,
(37:08):
I want some more. I felt so desperate and sad,
and I thought, that's not the energy that I want
to be in. That's I love gratitude, and I obviously
it's a life changing practice that's not revolutionary for me
to say by any means, But gratitude felt like stagnant
for me in a way when I wanted more of
(37:30):
something good. So I just was playing with this idea
of like thank you, with the gratitude and more please,
this audaciousness to ask for more in our lives, and
it became this revolutionary force that magnetized more good things
to me and helped me be even more grateful for
what I did have and helped me get even more
of what I wanted in my business, in my life
(37:50):
and my love life, and my clients have used it
to attract the most incredible dates, the most incredible jobs,
the most incredible everything, because it's a fun way to
prove to yourself that what you want exists. In doing so,
proving to yourself that your desire gets to be evidence
that what you want.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Exists, what you want exists, and also that you are
worth it. Because that's the thing that it makes me
feel when I say more please, like you said, having
the audacity even to ask for more in a moment
of good. Sometimes I think that's been a tricky one
for me, And I don't know if that's southernness or
woman knows.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Oh, Kelly, that's a very Southern thing, Like you should
be grateful, be grateful for what you.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Have there you ask for more, But it's communication with
me and whatever you believe in, if it's God, if
it's the universe, if it's spirit guides your higher power
of any kind, it's like, I see you, I see
what you just provided me, and I believe that this
is where I'm supposed to be going. This is what
my life is supposed to look like. Of course, we
all have hardships, but I don't believe in like a
(38:57):
punishing God or anything like that, you know. So it's
just a beautiful communication of yes, and let's like give
me more. I love this. It's so good. I am
worthy of that. I just I really implore you guys
to try that. It's all in the book. The book, again,
as we have said, is called Thank You More Please,
and it is out now.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
This is so exciting.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Now, I'm so.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Excited for people to read it. It is such a
I'm being told, you know, the producers in my ears
saying it's a joyful read. No, it's like people are
saying that it's a quick read. A lot of people
are dming me saying I read it in twenty four
hours because it was just like really fun and funny
and also provides such tangible, tactical dating advice. That will
(39:38):
feel like a big hug and an exhale all at once.
You're going to release so much of the dating pressure
and stress that you have learned over the past few
years or decades, depending on how long you've been dating,
whether you have just gotten divorced or you are a
late blimmer and have never dated. This book is going
to give you such practical guidance to meeting the love
of your life with a joyful dating life.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I love a tangible tip. The listeners know that I'm
always like, what is a tangible tip that we can
do here? And this book does provide a ton of those.
We've mentioned a lot of them in the podcast, but
you guys go check it out. There's also a journal
that goes with this, so you can be taking your
notes making your list while you're reading the book. So
I'll put both of those in the description of this podcast, Lily.
If people want to keep up with you and your
(40:21):
work other than this book, where will they find you?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
You can find me at the Date Brazen podcast All
the Time go binge my feminist dating advice. You can
also learn how to work with me at datefrazen dot
com and I'm on TikTok and Instagram at date brazen
da t e b r A z e en.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I will put all of that in a description again
of this podcast for you guys. Thank you so much
for being here again, Lily, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Kelly, and I also want to mention the audiobook I
recorded it It's Fire, so people can walk and listen
if they want that audiobook in their ears. I can't
wait to support them with this book. And thank you
for having me on again.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Oh my god, of course you guys go checkout Lily's work.
Thank you more, please, and thank you again for being here.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Thanks for listening to the Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,
where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a
little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty,
and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Kelly Henderson
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